Speaker 1: I'm Emily Chang, and this is the Circuit bien Venu,
Speaker 1: to the south of France, with its seaside beauty, cobblestone streets,
Speaker 1: and world famous cuisine. You're traveling with us along the
Speaker 1: coast to visit set, a small fishing village where Fiji Simo,
Speaker 1: the CEO of Instacart, grew up. So your family has
Speaker 1: been involved here for generations.
Speaker 2: My grandfather has really instilled in all of us so
Speaker 2: respect for Lexi's idea of feeding the world, and in
Speaker 2: our family, li food is everything. It's love, it's how
Speaker 2: we celebrate, it's the center of everything we do.
Speaker 1: Raised by fishingboat captains who instilled a sense of grip
Speaker 1: at a young age, Simo catapulted herself out of this
Speaker 1: charming Mediterranean harbor and into the sea suite of Silicon Valley.
Speaker 3: She rose through the.
Speaker 1: Ranks at Facebook as one of Mark Zuckerberg's top lieutenants.
Speaker 1: Ten years later, she was tapped to become the CEO
Speaker 1: of grocery delivery company Instacart, a seemingly perfect union of
Speaker 1: her tech child with her foody upbringing. She's also on
Speaker 1: the board of Shopify, and more recently joined the new
Speaker 1: board of Open Ai. Sam Altman got ousted in this
Speaker 1: bizarre cod now he's back. What aren't you advising them on?
Speaker 1: What are you advising sam On?
Speaker 2: I spent ten years at the company that was under
Speaker 2: very intense scrutiny, where we did a lot of things
Speaker 2: right then we also made some mistakes, and so a
Speaker 2: big part of what I am advising them on is
Speaker 2: how to handle getting to the level of organizational maturity
Speaker 2: that they need for the impact that they're having on
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: After visiting Simoon in France, I caught up with her
Speaker 1: back in San Francisco to talk about her unlikely path
Speaker 1: to Silicon Valley CEO, the bet she's making to deliver
Speaker 1: Instacart's next chapter, food Health, and the future of chat
Speaker 1: GPT in our kitchens joining me on this edition of
Speaker 1: the Circuit. Instacart CEO and chair Figcimo.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for doing this. It's great to
Speaker 4: see you here.
Speaker 3: Thank you for coming, and you're going home.
Speaker 1: After you know, spending time with you and France, so
Speaker 1: thank you for having us here today.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being here. Guys.
Speaker 1: I want to start with your initial impressions of Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley and the gig economy before you started working here. Obviously,
Speaker 1: your companies like Uber and Instacart and Airbnb and door
Speaker 1: dash were these sort of larger than life companies promising
Speaker 1: so much potential for the gig economy. What was your
Speaker 1: impression of gig work and what these companies were capable
Speaker 1: of before you started working here.
Speaker 2: The thing that was really striking is I had a
Speaker 2: lot of friends that had joined these companies, and we're
Speaker 2: telling me that the reason they had joined is very
Speaker 2: often because in the past they had struggling parents for
Speaker 2: whom these gig jobs would have been totally life saving.
Speaker 2: And as I dug it more because I joined the
Speaker 2: board of insta cut before becoming CEO, as I dug
Speaker 2: it more into that, it's definitely true that this is
Speaker 2: an economy that has led a lot of people to
Speaker 2: makeans meet, to find flexible work. And I talked to
Speaker 2: shoppers in my current job about once a month. I
Speaker 2: do like a educated call with them, and I hear
Speaker 2: incredible stories of people who are prime time caregivers but
Speaker 2: need to add a little bit of income, people who
Speaker 2: wanted to travel across the US and they have a
Speaker 2: job in every city with Instakolt, and so I think
Speaker 2: this is an incredible new way of working that these
Speaker 2: companies have enabled, and we need to really protect that.
Speaker 1: You joined the board of instacart and then six months
Speaker 1: later became CEO.
Speaker 4: Why did it all move so quickly.
Speaker 2: I think it was a confluence of events. Just to
Speaker 2: be clear, when I joined the board, I had absolutely
Speaker 2: no expectations of becoming CEO. I didn't want to leave
Speaker 2: Facebook at the time, but I really fell in love
Speaker 2: with the company. And at the same time, you know,
Speaker 2: my predecessor, Approva, was really looking to transition and figure
Speaker 2: out if he could put his company in the hands
Speaker 2: of someone who could get it to scale, who could
Speaker 2: get it to be public and really take it to
Speaker 2: the next level. And so that ended up being incredibly
Speaker 2: good timing for both of us.
Speaker 3: But certainly a surprise.
Speaker 1: Grocery is the biggest commerce sector in the US.
Speaker 4: But what did you see in terms of potential beyond groceries.
Speaker 2: People really think of instacrat as is like online grocery
Speaker 2: delivery up and that's certainly a very big part of
Speaker 2: what we do.
Speaker 3: We're on essential service for families.
Speaker 2: But what I saw when I joined the board was
Speaker 2: the potential to really be a grocery technology company. The
Speaker 2: things that are so special about what we do is
Speaker 2: we integrate really deeply with fifteen hundred grocers. We provide
Speaker 2: technology for them both in our marketplace but also powering
Speaker 2: their own e commerce properties. So I saw the potential
Speaker 2: to be the technology ally for the entire industry, including
Speaker 2: not just online but also inside the store, and to me,
Speaker 2: that's a massive opportunity.
Speaker 1: You worked at Facebook for a decade, you reported directly
Speaker 1: to Mark Zuckerberg. What were some of the lessons from
Speaker 1: the School of Zuch that shaped your thinking?
Speaker 2: Since the school is Zach was one of the best schools,
Speaker 2: I would say the thing that Zach did incredibly well
Speaker 2: and I'm really trying to replicate here is always be
Speaker 2: focused on a very very long term vision, but also
Speaker 2: have perfect execution in the short term, because you never
Speaker 2: get to your long term vision if you don't have
Speaker 2: perfect execution right now and the ability to combine both,
Speaker 2: like I've yourized in the future, but sweat the details
Speaker 2: right now is really important and a lot of leaders
Speaker 2: don't manage to have both.
Speaker 3: That really showed us how to have both.
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg has gotten so much criticism for so long
Speaker 1: faced controversy after controversy.
Speaker 4: What did you learn from that?
Speaker 2: Well, I learned that, you know, when you have such
Speaker 2: large impact on the world, it comes with a lot
Speaker 2: of responsibility, and you need to get really ahead of
Speaker 2: that and understand what your responsibility is and be proactive
Speaker 2: about explaining to the world what you're doing, why you're
Speaker 2: doing it, and really invest in making sure people understand
Speaker 2: what you're doing. And that's something that Facebook ended up doing,
Speaker 2: but it kind of and I wish we had done
Speaker 2: it sooner.
Speaker 1: You became CEO at the top of the tech bubble,
Speaker 1: we were in the middle of a pandemic. Instacart was
Speaker 1: worth thirty eight billion dollars. How did you have to
Speaker 1: reframe your expectations and your employees expectations of what this
Speaker 1: company could be.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because on the one hand we had this
Speaker 2: like giant valuation, but on the other hand, when I joined,
Speaker 2: we were declining, like gross transaction volume declining double digits
Speaker 2: because it was post pandemic. We had grown, you know,
Speaker 2: four x, and people were wondering if we were going
Speaker 2: to sustain that or if we were going to decline
Speaker 2: back to prior levels. And we were kind of the
Speaker 2: poster child for an unprofitable company. So really, the way
Speaker 2: I reset with the companies to say, let's kind of
Speaker 2: forget about, you know what the external world is valuing
Speaker 2: us at and thinking, and let's talk about building a
Speaker 2: generational company. And that means a company that can grow
Speaker 2: sustainably and that is profitable.
Speaker 3: And that's exactly what we did.
Speaker 4: Then the bubble pops. Did you see that coming? Like,
Speaker 4: were you kind of preparing for that possibility?
Speaker 2: I wish I could tell you yes, but no, I
Speaker 2: think the thing that I was prepared for was that
Speaker 2: we needed to build a sustainable company. And so my
Speaker 2: philosophy is that you need to have a great company
Speaker 2: under any macro ecrodomic environment. And that's exactly what we did.
Speaker 2: We set the foundation to thrive under any macroeconomic condition.
Speaker 2: But it was certainly a surprise because you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of our employees were really expecting to go public
Speaker 2: very soon, and we had to reset those expectations, both
Speaker 2: because of the market, but also because at the time
Speaker 2: I didn't judge as the company was ready to go public,
Speaker 2: and we went public at a time where the company
Speaker 2: was in a much much better shape to actually take
Speaker 2: it public.
Speaker 1: You're technically not a founder of instacart. How is that
Speaker 1: an advantage and how is that a disadvantage? Can you
Speaker 1: still run the company in founder mode?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm very convinced that we need to have see
Speaker 2: non founders acting in founder mode. Everybody is having a
Speaker 2: different definition for founder mode, but the way I kind
Speaker 2: of define it is like having a very long term vision,
Speaker 2: not being swayed by the short term movements, being really
Speaker 2: intense and being really in the details of knowing your
Speaker 2: business and being really willing to make the very hard
Speaker 2: calls to make sure that your company thrives, and that
Speaker 2: I believe is something that you know every CEO should
Speaker 2: and so for me, I think the advantage is that
Speaker 2: I come with a lot of experience having seen scale
Speaker 2: at a larger company. The disadvantage is that you don't
Speaker 2: have all of the credibility that a founder has from
Speaker 2: having created the company. You need to rebuild that and
Speaker 2: that takes a little bit of time. I didn't get
Speaker 2: that from day one, but I'm getting it by showing
Speaker 2: that all of the new bets that have put in
Speaker 2: place are now working, and that's you know very much.
Speaker 1: How I judge myself, what's your relationship with a poor
Speaker 1: of today?
Speaker 4: How involved is he?
Speaker 1: Like, do you ever have disagreements and how do you
Speaker 1: work through those?
Speaker 2: Yes, So it was on the board for quite a
Speaker 2: period of time and then stepped down from the board.
Speaker 2: So now it's a little bit different because I can't
Speaker 2: really share with them private information but the company, so
Speaker 2: we do talk at a very high level, and you know,
Speaker 2: given our well in knowess the company is always good advice,
Speaker 2: but it's less involved by definition.
Speaker 1: You did take instacart public, you push through. How big
Speaker 1: of a milestone was that for you? I mean this
Speaker 1: is when companies weren't going public yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, being one of the first one, not the first
Speaker 2: one was a little you know, stress in using But
Speaker 2: I would say the IPO was just a moment in time.
Speaker 2: Employees that worked really hard for that milestone. So I
Speaker 2: wanted to celebrate that, but also not to lose sight
Speaker 2: of the fact that the real goal is realizing this
Speaker 2: long term vision, becoming a generational company. The IPO is
Speaker 2: a means to an end, it's not the end in itself.
Speaker 1: It's been a year since the IPO. Instacart's now valued
Speaker 1: at nine ish billion dollars. Wall Street's still skeptical. They's
Speaker 1: skeptic of the growth potential. It doesn't compare to some
Speaker 1: of the bigger gig economy players.
Speaker 4: What's your response to that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we are still misunderstood, and for the
Speaker 2: first year as a public company, that's not uncommon. But
Speaker 2: I see my job as making sure that the market
Speaker 2: understands how incredibly hard and complex grocery is. And I
Speaker 2: think a big part of why there is a bit
Speaker 2: of overhang on the stock is because people believe that
Speaker 2: this is such a big market. We have a very
Speaker 2: clear category leadership position, but that's going to be a
Speaker 2: lot of competition coming up. And the thing that I
Speaker 2: think the market underestimates is how hard it is to
Speaker 2: sell customers and deliver groceries with accuracy, with speed, with selection,
Speaker 2: with affordability.
Speaker 3: We've been at it for twelve years.
Speaker 2: And so even if we have new entrants coming into
Speaker 2: the market, they are not able to do that at
Speaker 2: the scale and at the level of quality that we're doing.
Speaker 2: And I think the market is going to end up
Speaker 2: realizing that while there will be intensified competition, we have
Speaker 2: a very deep competitive advantage.
Speaker 1: Is it frustrating when the market is not where you
Speaker 1: think it should be.
Speaker 3: You know, I tend to not focus on that.
Speaker 2: My philosophy is that when you focus on the obstacles,
Speaker 2: they grow bigger. I tried to focus on the destination instead.
Speaker 2: And so the thing that I really want is to
Speaker 2: first build this incredible company, and then I think the
Speaker 2: market takes care of itself once it becomes obvious. And
Speaker 2: I think we're still at a time where, you know,
Speaker 2: the new bets that I've put in place are just
Speaker 2: starting to work. We talked about Keeper, we talked about restaurants.
Speaker 2: They are just starting to take off, and the market
Speaker 2: will end up realizing the strength of what we're building
Speaker 2: over time.
Speaker 4: What were you right about and what were you wrong about?
Speaker 3: Great question.
Speaker 2: I think I assumed when I joined and it would
Speaker 2: be much easier to move the market online because grocery
Speaker 2: is a trillion dollar category but only thirteen percent penetrated online,
Speaker 2: and that's lower than any other category of commerce. And
Speaker 2: I think I was a bit naive in thinking like, oh,
Speaker 2: of course, it's such a good service. We can accelerate
Speaker 2: on an adoption much faster. And that has been harder
Speaker 2: than I thought. But At the same time, the flip
Speaker 2: side to that is that because it is so hard,
Speaker 2: it's also a huge competitive advantage when you're a category leader,
Speaker 2: because competitors have had a much harder time than I
Speaker 2: thought entering this market, and so it's a double edged
Speaker 2: sword how complex and hard grocery is.
Speaker 1: You have millions of data points on how people shop,
Speaker 1: what sort of general trends are you seeing, what's working,
Speaker 1: what's not working, what do people want?
Speaker 2: I think people value convenience enormously, so number one reason
Speaker 2: why people come to instacart is convenience, and our entire
Speaker 2: goal is to help families get life done, and they
Speaker 2: are coming to instacott to save time. We are continuously
Speaker 2: adding new services like restaurants so that they can save
Speaker 2: more time, and that is something that's working really well.
Speaker 2: We have twenty five million people who have used this
Speaker 2: in the last year. I think that to get to
Speaker 2: the next twenty five million people, we also need to
Speaker 2: have a service for people who value price over convenience,
Speaker 2: and that's why you're seeing as being very focused on
Speaker 2: affordability and access, so that we're not just serving the
Speaker 2: convenience buyer, but also serving the more price and site biers.
Speaker 1: You're hoping to be the premier technology provider for all
Speaker 1: groceries and grocery store so that I might be able
Speaker 1: to order directly from safewire, Albertson's or wherever.
Speaker 4: How do you make this bigger?
Speaker 2: First off, this is already very big. It's worth remembering
Speaker 2: that the entire grocery industry is a trillion dollar market,
Speaker 2: and our technologies don't just apply online, they apply inside
Speaker 2: the store. So thirteen percent of the market is online,
Speaker 2: eighty seven percent is in the store, and with skateboard cards,
Speaker 2: we have the technologies to tackle that eighty seven percent.
Speaker 3: And then beyond that. I actually believe.
Speaker 2: That all the technologies that we've built for retailers are
Speaker 2: technologies that can expand to the entire food supply chain.
Speaker 2: They can expend to distributors, they can expend tos to farmers,
Speaker 2: and you could imagine that if the entire food system
Speaker 2: was technology enabled, was running with artificial intelligence, we would
Speaker 2: have a food system that would be much less wasteful,
Speaker 2: much more optimized, and everybody would benefit.
Speaker 4: You mentioned Caper.
Speaker 1: You bought Caper, maker of these AI powered smart carts,
Speaker 1: saw this really cute video of you shopping with a
Speaker 1: smart cart with your daughter.
Speaker 4: How many people are actually using this?
Speaker 2: So right now we have hundreds of colts deployed and
Speaker 2: in the next several months we're going two thousands of courts,
Speaker 2: but were really already in deployment with a lot of
Speaker 2: retailers as at Koger wakefern Schnarks, like lots of different
Speaker 2: ones even Aldi internationally, And really the feedback we're hearing
Speaker 2: is that consumers absolutely love the experience, not just because
Speaker 2: they can skip checkout, which is great, but because there's
Speaker 2: a screen on keeper cards that follows you around the
Speaker 2: worst restore and can recommend things based on what's in
Speaker 2: your basket based on the location you're at in the store,
Speaker 2: and that makes for a much more fun experience, So
Speaker 2: consumers love it. That results in higher basket size for retailers,
Speaker 2: and therefore retailers are now starting to see the real
Speaker 2: business case behind it. And as you can imagine, there's
Speaker 2: a great advertising model that you can build on top
Speaker 2: of that, and we would you know, share revenue with
Speaker 2: retailers as part of that as well.
Speaker 1: Also only really nice to know how much you're spending
Speaker 1: before you actually go to check out.
Speaker 4: There are so many times I'm like, ouch.
Speaker 1: Maybe I would have put a few things back.
Speaker 3: And you know, that's a great point.
Speaker 2: And initially I was worried that if we showed the totals,
Speaker 2: that would just reduce your spend, and that's not the
Speaker 2: case because there's a lot of people who are on
Speaker 2: a budget and when they see their total, they're actually
Speaker 2: maximizing getting to their budget. Whereas if they have to
Speaker 2: go through a normal checkout, they never want to be
Speaker 2: embarrassed to have to put items back and so they
Speaker 2: end up buying a lot less to avoid the embarrassment
Speaker 2: of putting items back at checkout. And so it has
Speaker 2: actually provided a real deep service for people both on
Speaker 2: the affluent side as well as people on a budget.
Speaker 1: There are now giants in this business, Amazon, Walmart. How
Speaker 1: can instacart compete? Where will you win and where will
Speaker 1: they So?
Speaker 2: First off, both Amazon and Walmart partners on our marketplace,
Speaker 2: so we also sell them and we also help them
Speaker 2: gain access to incremental customers. But I would say, you know,
Speaker 2: the weak customers shop is very different when you look
Speaker 2: at instagrat on average, instagoult customer shops at five retailers
Speaker 2: and instacolt plus members shop at twice the number of
Speaker 2: retailers as non instacout members, and that means selection is critical.
Speaker 2: So the Amazon and Walmarts of the world might get
Speaker 2: a fair share of people who love these particular banners,
Speaker 2: but we cover fifteen hundred banners. And so if you
Speaker 2: want to shop at multiple retailers, if your favorite retailer
Speaker 2: op choice is a public so Kroger and al tho cents,
Speaker 2: we really are the best place for that.
Speaker 4: You have a partnership with Uber, how's that going.
Speaker 2: It's been a fantastic partnership with them. We have been
Speaker 2: able to really enter restaurant delivery overnight and help families
Speaker 2: not just get groceries for the week, but also dinner
Speaker 2: for tonight.
Speaker 4: How much revenue is it driving, how much business is
Speaker 4: it driving?
Speaker 2: Well, well, not sharing that quite yet, but I would
Speaker 2: say it has exceeded our expectations. And when you look
Speaker 2: at the numbers, we are driving penetration of restaurants among
Speaker 2: our grocery user base faster than the restaurant delivery platforms
Speaker 2: are driving penetration of grocery amongst.
Speaker 3: Our user based.
Speaker 2: So we're really pleased with the results we're attracting new
Speaker 2: customers to instagrat order frequencies up and our membership became
Speaker 2: twice as valuable over night.
Speaker 3: So very excited about it.
Speaker 1: Could there be consolidation in the future, Could Uber buy Instacart.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we don't.
Speaker 2: We don't comment on any of any rumor or speculation
Speaker 2: in general. But what I'll tell you is we're very
Speaker 2: excited about our independent paths. We have a really great
Speaker 2: strategy and a lot of long term initiatives that are working,
Speaker 2: and so we're very community to that path.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: Bigger picture, groceries are so expensive.
Speaker 4: Everyone is feeling it. What's happening here? Why is everyone
Speaker 4: hurting so much?
Speaker 2: I think there's been, as you know, just an increase
Speaker 2: in prices over throughout the supply chain that ends up
Speaker 2: hurting the end customer. The role that we play is
Speaker 2: really trying to get savings for customers wherever they exist.
Speaker 2: So we integrate with retailer's loyalty system. We help them
Speaker 2: optimize their prices with our algorithms called eversight. We digitize
Speaker 2: the circulars, you know, the weekly circulars with coupons. We
Speaker 2: put that online so that people could get deals. So
Speaker 2: we're doing a lot of these things, and in total,
Speaker 2: we are actually saving people four dollars and seventy five
Speaker 2: cents per order through all of these initiatives, because every
Speaker 2: dollar counts when go through is are that expensive and
Speaker 2: so we're very proud of that. And again that's something
Speaker 2: that competition hasn't really done because it takes deep into
Speaker 2: with grocers to be able to pass on all of
Speaker 2: these like self pricing.
Speaker 1: That's that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here,
Speaker 1: but using instacar, my understanding is it makes everything more expensive.
Speaker 1: It still seems like a luxury and not a necessity.
Speaker 1: Why do you think people will continue to pay a
Speaker 1: premium when they're already paying a lot?
Speaker 2: Well, first off, like when you look at the delivery
Speaker 2: issues that you get to pay off your seep to
Speaker 2: have the service. A lot of people tell us that
Speaker 2: when you start factoring in the cost of gas to
Speaker 2: go to the grocery store, the loss of time for
Speaker 2: people who may be packing two jobs in one day,
Speaker 2: and all of these factors, it's actually a.
Speaker 3: Really really good deal.
Speaker 2: And you know, we are at the point where forty
Speaker 2: five percent of fur orders are picked by shoppers that
Speaker 2: already at the store. Within the middle of the store,
Speaker 2: so that means you have someone picking your orders by
Speaker 2: the time it would take you to get to the
Speaker 2: front door. That's extreme convenience, and so what we're seeing
Speaker 2: is people are willing to pay for this time saving
Speaker 2: because time is money, and that's the critical thing. One
Speaker 2: thing that I'm really proud of is that when you
Speaker 2: look at the split of demographics of instacart, they actually
Speaker 2: closely mirror US population in terms of income.
Speaker 3: And that wasn't the case four years ago.
Speaker 2: Four years ago, You're absolutely right, it used to be
Speaker 2: a luxury, but with all of the things that we've
Speaker 2: put in place, we actually mirror US population much more
Speaker 2: closely now, and we hear from people that are more
Speaker 2: in the lower income buckets how critical instacut is because
Speaker 2: these people might need money, but they are also time starved,
Speaker 2: and if we can help them save time, that saves
Speaker 2: them money.
Speaker 4: High level.
Speaker 1: Do you see consolidation coming in the grocery business and
Speaker 1: what would that do to prices?
Speaker 2: I think the US grocery landscape is interesting because customers really.
Speaker 3: Love their local grocer.
Speaker 2: So you are seeing some consolidation happen with the big guys,
Speaker 2: but there are still a lot of space for regional
Speaker 2: players could favorites, and that's why you know, selection matters
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 3: The rother markets.
Speaker 2: You know, Europe is a good example where there's like
Speaker 2: two to three big players and that's it. In the US,
Speaker 2: if you don't have the full selection of fifteen hundred grosses,
Speaker 2: you can't really self customer needs.
Speaker 1: More broadly, gigwork for so many people has provide an
Speaker 1: extra income flexibility.
Speaker 4: But there are still a.
Speaker 1: Lot of complaints and I'm just going to read some
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 4: You know, this is a really hard job. There's people
Speaker 4: that are complaining.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the item requested isn't there, they don't get enough orders,
Speaker 1: people don't tip, they're going to strangers homes. They're complaining
Speaker 1: about customer service, and then in the end they say
Speaker 1: they don't make that much money. How do you respond
Speaker 1: to all that? How do you address all of that?
Speaker 2: So that will always be complaints, but we really look
Speaker 2: at the numbers to figure out if you're doing a
Speaker 2: good job, and then we can always improved. You know,
Speaker 2: being a shopper is a tough job. You are in
Speaker 2: the store trying to figure out how to find twenty
Speaker 2: plus items going on a customer chat and helping the
Speaker 2: customers figure out if something is missing.
Speaker 3: On the shelves.
Speaker 2: So are truths and our technology are things that we
Speaker 2: always invest in so that the jobs becomes as easy
Speaker 2: as possible. And what we hear from more shoppers is
Speaker 2: that the ones who decide to be shoppers on instacot
Speaker 2: are very different than the ones who peak restaurant delivery.
Speaker 3: Or right sharing.
Speaker 2: There are people who are more customer service oriented, who
Speaker 2: want to spend more time in the store interacting with customers.
Speaker 3: So there is also a lot of self selection happening.
Speaker 1: I know you've been a shopper yourself, and you go
Speaker 1: back every so often to see what the experience is like.
Speaker 4: You're also a mom. More shopping falls to moms.
Speaker 1: What are the things that aren't perfect yet or that
Speaker 1: you want to get better personally?
Speaker 4: Like, what are the things where you're like, oh.
Speaker 2: I think we have made a ton of progress on
Speaker 2: like making the up just much more easy to use.
Speaker 2: I think the number one thing they want is access
Speaker 2: more earning opportunities.
Speaker 3: They want more.
Speaker 2: Orders, they want more taks to complete, and so there
Speaker 2: are some things that we're looking at, like if they
Speaker 2: are already at the store, other things that they can
Speaker 2: do while they wait for an order inside the store,
Speaker 2: and so things like that that really help them earn
Speaker 2: while they're waiting for an order.
Speaker 3: That's the biggest thing that we keep hearing about.
Speaker 4: From the financial perspective.
Speaker 1: You know, back in the day, there was this vision
Speaker 1: that you could make a living doing gig work, and
Speaker 1: that sounded amazing, but now it seems like it's really
Speaker 1: more just side hustle money or supplemental income at best.
Speaker 4: What do you think.
Speaker 2: I think we have a very small number of shoppers
Speaker 2: who really want to do that full time, but nine
Speaker 2: out of ten or work shoppers actually have other sources
Speaker 2: of income. And the majority of work shoppers shop less
Speaker 2: than ten hours a week with Instagram. So the average
Speaker 2: use case really is supplemental income.
Speaker 3: And that's why the flexibility is so critical.
Speaker 2: These people are not looking for a nine to five jobs.
Speaker 2: They are looking for something that fits within their complex
Speaker 2: lives and that they can do on the go in
Speaker 2: a very modular way.
Speaker 1: These workers don't have the same protections that you or
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 4: Should they.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of protections they should have,
Speaker 2: and in fact, when you look at the systems that
Speaker 2: are put in place in a lot of regions, including
Speaker 2: Prop twenty two in California. It's a way to balance
Speaker 2: the need for flexibility, which is absolutely critical, with also
Speaker 2: giving these workhouse of protection that they so deserve. And
Speaker 2: so when you look at kind of policy agenda, it's
Speaker 2: really about maintaining that flexibility, protecting the independent contractor status
Speaker 2: that's so important to what they want, but giving them
Speaker 2: the protection they so deserve.
Speaker 1: Instac Cart spend spending time at the White House time
Speaker 1: in DC.
Speaker 4: What are you advocating for.
Speaker 2: The main thing that we are very focused on is
Speaker 2: food access, and we have done a lot of work
Speaker 2: with that, in particular by bringing the SNAP programs through
Speaker 2: the Systems Program online and we are the first platform
Speaker 2: that has allowed SNAP in all fifty states. This other
Speaker 2: has required a lot of collaboration with the White House
Speaker 2: on really modernizing this program to bring it online, doing
Speaker 2: that with other programs in the future, and making sure
Speaker 2: that we can maximize food access.
Speaker 4: How do you think about the global food system?
Speaker 1: So many people in the world don't have access to
Speaker 1: enough They don't have enough food, they don't have access
Speaker 1: to quality food, let alone have access to instacart. How
Speaker 1: does that shape your thinking and your strategy.
Speaker 2: It's a very big part for strategy because we think
Speaker 2: fundamentally the food system is completely suboptimized, it creates a
Speaker 2: lot of waste.
Speaker 3: Therefore, it also creates the opposite.
Speaker 2: Sometimes to avoid waste, you end up not having products
Speaker 2: on the shelf, and everyone loses when that's the case.
Speaker 2: And when you think of all the technologies that can
Speaker 2: be built and optimized through machine learning, through artificial intelligence,
Speaker 2: we could have a food system that is fundamentally less
Speaker 2: wasteful if all of the actors of the supply chain
Speaker 2: were all connected, all optimized, and if some one was
Speaker 2: collecting consumer data that feeds the entire system so that
Speaker 2: the right things could be produced at the right volume.
Speaker 3: And we think we can be that player.
Speaker 2: We think that we have built the technologies for retailers,
Speaker 2: for brands, and now we can extend them to the
Speaker 2: rest of the food system. That's a big opportunity for
Speaker 2: the company, but also a big problem to solve.
Speaker 1: You're offering instagrat benefits for people on food stamps through
Speaker 1: the US Department of Health and Human Services. You're expanding
Speaker 1: these food as medicine initiatives.
Speaker 4: How does this play out how does this work.
Speaker 3: Food as medicine is a great example.
Speaker 2: We as a country are spending about a trillion dollars
Speaker 2: on healthcare costs for diect really disease. A trillion is
Speaker 2: the same amount as the entire country spends on food.
Speaker 2: That's pretty crazy when you think about it. That means
Speaker 2: that there's a lot of money that's very poorly spent
Speaker 2: and would be better spent helping people buy nutritious food.
Speaker 2: And that is fundamentally an economic problem, but also a
Speaker 2: technology problem because to scale those food as many in
Speaker 2: program and distribute nutritious food to people all across the US,
Speaker 2: you need a technology platform that can do that. And
Speaker 2: we reach all of the US with fresh food in
Speaker 2: under two hours.
Speaker 3: So that's why we took on the very.
Speaker 2: Big initiative of partnering with government, parnering with nonprofits, parnering
Speaker 2: with our systems to really be the rails by which
Speaker 2: this can happen. It's pretty crazy that today it is
Speaker 2: easier for a doctor to prescribe medication than it is
Speaker 2: to prescribe food, when we know food is such a
Speaker 2: big driver of the condition. So again, we can solve
Speaker 2: that to technology by making it as easy to do
Speaker 2: one versus the other, and instagrat can fulfill that.
Speaker 1: Speaking of food as medicine, you co founded a health
Speaker 1: clinic and research institute.
Speaker 4: This is personal for you.
Speaker 1: I mean you've been very public about your own struggles
Speaker 1: with health.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, I think you know.
Speaker 2: The plague of chronic illness in the US and worldwide
Speaker 2: is a very very important problem, and while not in
Speaker 2: particular in the US tackling it the right way, there's
Speaker 2: not enough focus on preventative care. There's not enough focus
Speaker 2: on the things that work, like diet, and while not
Speaker 2: making it easy for people to actually adopt a better diets,
Speaker 2: that end up changing their habits.
Speaker 3: So that's really what we're trying to solve.
Speaker 1: You also do many other things outside of your own instacart.
Speaker 4: You're on a new board of open Ai. Who approached too.
Speaker 4: How did that happen?
Speaker 2: I was serving on the board of Shopify with Brett Taylor,
Speaker 2: with the chairman of open Ai, so he's so many
Speaker 2: action there and approached me to join the board of
Speaker 2: open Ai. And it's been just a real privilege and
Speaker 2: huge responsibility to be part of that journey.
Speaker 1: You joined during a very critical time. Sam Martman got
Speaker 1: ousted in this bizarre coon Now he's back. What are
Speaker 1: you advising them on? What are you advising Salmon?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: I spent ten years at the company that was under
Speaker 2: very intense scrutiny, where we did a lot of things right,
Speaker 2: and we also made some mistakes. And so a big
Speaker 2: part of, you know, what I am advising the man
Speaker 2: is how to handle getting to the level of organizational
Speaker 2: maturity that they need for the impact that they're having
Speaker 2: on the world. But I have been really positively surprised
Speaker 2: by how seriously they takes a responsibility, how they put
Speaker 2: safety above everything else, And so as a board, it's
Speaker 2: really odd job to really help them build all of
Speaker 2: the infrastructure that they need for the massive impact.
Speaker 3: They are having but also well have in the future.
Speaker 4: How about them personally? Like, what's your impression of him
Speaker 4: as a leader?
Speaker 2: Is an incredible visionary and I think we're talking about
Speaker 2: founder mode earlier. Like the reason I was excited to join,
Speaker 2: even though you know it's a board that requires quite
Speaker 2: a bit of work, is because I love seeing founders
Speaker 2: in action, and I love seeing someone who has an
Speaker 2: incredibly long television who is really motivated by doing good
Speaker 2: for the world and really helping him because there's going
Speaker 2: to be a lot of bumps along that journey. This
Speaker 2: is the first company is that's doing something really unprecedented
Speaker 2: with a lot of challenges ahead, and so I don't.
Speaker 3: Think it's going to be an easy journey.
Speaker 2: But I think having someone that's a helm has so
Speaker 2: much dedication to the mission is really critical.
Speaker 1: I think people look at him and see kind of
Speaker 1: an enigma, and even he said you shouldn't trust me,
Speaker 1: you know, how do we make sense of that?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: First off, I think that kind of sounds familiar, right,
Speaker 2: Like all of these very powerful people, we always feel
Speaker 2: like they're enigmas. We always feel like they are quite
Speaker 2: a bit of power, and therefore we want to understand
Speaker 2: more about them. The same thing kind of happens tomorrow,
Speaker 2: and I think with Sam, I think it's not just
Speaker 2: about trusting one man. I think it's about trusting an
Speaker 2: entire system, whether that's the board, whether that's how the
Speaker 2: entire company works, whether that's the transparency of their processes
Speaker 2: that they are releasing publicly. So I think while understanding
Speaker 2: sam psychology mode is always great, I think the much
Speaker 2: more important thing is really looking at what the entire
Speaker 2: organization is producing what they're releasing publicly so that we
Speaker 2: can understand their processes and the impacts are going to have.
Speaker 4: You know, that's from your earliers of Facebook.
Speaker 1: When there's this explosion in technology or an explosion of
Speaker 1: a platform, there's so many different companies now trying to
Speaker 1: do this. There's talent moving all over the place. Like,
Speaker 1: what should we make of all these people living open
Speaker 1: ai are getting reported.
Speaker 4: On leaving open ai? Why shouldn't we be worried?
Speaker 2: I think, you know, every time that all this like
Speaker 2: new big technology changes, you see talent moving around. And
Speaker 2: the thing that I think we need to look at
Speaker 2: is like, look at the talents that's currently at open Air,
Speaker 2: and it's just absolutely incredible talents, like just the smartest
Speaker 2: people I've worked with, and they are really committed to
Speaker 2: the mission and really committed to achieving the mission in
Speaker 2: a really, really safe way. And so we need to judge,
Speaker 2: I think, based on the outcome. And that's why transparency
Speaker 2: is critical, because if we release all of the results
Speaker 2: of analysis and are very transparent on what we're seeing
Speaker 2: in this model, the public is going to be able
Speaker 2: to judge, you know, whether trust us or not.
Speaker 4: Do you think AI will be good or bad for
Speaker 4: the world.
Speaker 2: I think it's up to us to make it good.
Speaker 2: I think it will be absolutely fantastic for the world,
Speaker 2: but I also think that there will be a lot
Speaker 2: of risks that we need to actively mitigate. I do
Speaker 2: not believe that this is something that happens to us.
Speaker 2: I believe that this is something we get to drive,
Speaker 2: and I believe in our ability to maximize the good
Speaker 2: and minimize the bad.
Speaker 1: People have been using chat schipit to generate recipes. What's
Speaker 1: the potential for AI in the full world.
Speaker 2: There's so much potential, And as I've talked to you about,
Speaker 2: I think in SET, I see technology not for technology's sake.
Speaker 2: I love technology for like the concrete thing that it enables,
Speaker 2: and I think with AI, it's the same in the
Speaker 2: food world. To me, it has to solve the problem
Speaker 2: of families wondering what to put on the table and
Speaker 2: really figuring out what's for dinner. And I think with AI,
Speaker 2: we have the opportunity to personalize the experience to such
Speaker 2: an extent that someone could be able to come to
Speaker 2: instacot and just say, hey, I have a family of
Speaker 2: three kids, one of them is lectos intolerant mama's diabetes
Speaker 2: or on this budget and really get back a set
Speaker 2: of ingredients, a set of recipes that are perfect for
Speaker 2: that family and that show up at their doors. So
Speaker 2: I see AI as a way to really remove friction
Speaker 2: and help people get there on its field in natural
Speaker 2: language kind of the way they deal with that in
Speaker 2: their head. But now we have computer interfaces that are
Speaker 2: able to interpret that and act on their behalf.
Speaker 1: There are so few female taxeos, even fewer French female
Speaker 1: text see are going very niche, but really it seems
Speaker 1: that the community is getting even smaller. Does it ever
Speaker 1: feel to you like we're going backwards?
Speaker 3: It's such a tough topic.
Speaker 2: I think I don't feel it that way because again,
Speaker 2: as I told you earlier, I don't tend to focus
Speaker 2: on the obstacles.
Speaker 3: I tend to focus on the destination.
Speaker 2: And I think what we're seeing is many more female leaders,
Speaker 2: and to their credit, some male leaders as well, really
Speaker 2: lifting women up.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Like a good example is like my board is not
Speaker 2: majority women, and it's not that I decided that was
Speaker 2: the number one party. It just happens that a lot
Speaker 2: of women are in my network, and they are all
Speaker 2: fantastic and that's why, you know, my end up on
Speaker 2: my board, and so I think there's some hope that
Speaker 2: you know, the women that are in power now are
Speaker 2: actually doing the right things to make sure that they
Speaker 2: are role models for the next generation.
Speaker 3: And they leave these women.
Speaker 1: Up well, and what do you know, You have more
Speaker 1: women in power and they elevate more women.
Speaker 4: That's how it happenedsolutely. How would you describe your leadership style?
Speaker 4: Are you tough as nails? Do you access over the details?
Speaker 4: Are you a big picture thinker? Like what's your vibe?
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I definitely obsessed with all the details.
Speaker 2: My team would tell you that whenever they send me
Speaker 2: period documents, there's like at least one hundred comments in
Speaker 2: the details. And I think that's important because I think
Speaker 2: if you're not in the details as a CEO, you
Speaker 2: lose the grasp of all the things that are going
Speaker 2: to make your business tick. And I think customers notice
Speaker 2: if you sweat the details or not. And so I
Speaker 2: am very into the details, but I think it's important
Speaker 2: to combine that with also the long term visions of
Speaker 2: like you know, ten twenty years old and it's a
Speaker 2: combination of the two that makes for great companies.
Speaker 3: So I think that's one saying.
Speaker 2: And then on the toughest nails, the thing I try
Speaker 2: to do is stretch them because I really see the
Speaker 2: magic in my team and I want them to fulfill
Speaker 2: the around potential, which can sometimes feel extremely hard. But
Speaker 2: also I support them in taking risk in doing that.
Speaker 2: So I think it is when I talk to them,
Speaker 2: they say that it's certainly not a work in the
Speaker 2: park work for me, but they know I have their back,
Speaker 2: and that's I think that's the right balance to strike because.
Speaker 4: They more of a kill them with kindness.
Speaker 3: I just not kill them but be kind. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean to me, it's that's about kindness, of
Speaker 2: course kindness, but to me, it's about like having the
Speaker 2: back and supporting them to take risks because the best
Speaker 2: careers are built on mistaking, are built on stretching yourself.
Speaker 2: I believe you're more fulfilled when every year you're a
Speaker 2: new version of yourself. And so I want to show
Speaker 2: them that I set the bar very high for them
Speaker 2: because I see the magic that they could get to,
Speaker 2: and I'm here to support them when it gets hard
Speaker 2: to get there.
Speaker 4: What about honesty.
Speaker 1: I think we will Heerd is the one who said
Speaker 1: honesty is kind.
Speaker 2: Honesty is kind absolutely. I mean we have this value
Speaker 2: at instagrat. That's pretty it all on the table. And
Speaker 2: I believe you cannot make good decisions, you cannot help
Speaker 2: people if you're not absolutely direct with people. And I
Speaker 2: totally agree. You know, sugar cutting things has never helped anyone.
Speaker 2: It's much better to deliver it straight and then you know,
Speaker 2: people get to do what they want with that.
Speaker 4: What's your advice to the next Fiji, Simo.
Speaker 3: I think it's it's the thing I said earlier. Focus
Speaker 3: on the destination.
Speaker 2: What you put your attention on grows, and if you
Speaker 2: focus on the obstacles, the obstacles will grow. If you
Speaker 2: focus on the destination, the destination will get easier through
Speaker 2: which I.
Speaker 4: Think that needs to be on a T shirt. Thanks
Speaker 4: on the destination, watch the obstacles. We'll new swag.
Speaker 2: Next time.
Speaker 4: You We're awesome.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to this edition of the Circuit.
Speaker 1: Catch the full episode on Bloomberg Originals and travel with
Speaker 1: us to Simo's hometown of set in France.
Speaker 4: It is absolutely stunning and.
Speaker 1: You can see how I handle holding a massive fishhead.
Speaker 4: I'm Emily Chang.
Speaker 1: Follow me on x and Instagram at Emily Chang TV.
Speaker 1: You can watch new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Television or streaming on the Bloomberg app or YouTube, and
Speaker 1: let us know what you think by leaving a review.
Speaker 1: Those extra reviews really make a difference. I'm your host
Speaker 1: and executive producer. Our showrunner is Lauren Ellis. Our producer
Speaker 1: is Zeduina o'teira. Our editor is Alison Casey.