WEBVTT - Live from COP31 0:00:17.282 --> 0:00:33.322 Pushkin. Hello and welcome back to Drilled. 0:00:33.462 --> 0:00:34.642 I'm Amy Westervelt. 0:00:35.042 --> 0:00:39.042 This is The Spill, our weekly newscast. It runs every 0:00:39.082 --> 0:00:43.582 Friday in between our narrative seasons. And speaking of which, 0:00:43.602 --> 0:00:47.202 we have a new one. It's coming next week. Tuesday, 0:00:47.612 --> 0:00:50.312 Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss that. That 0:00:50.372 --> 0:00:53.452 means that you won't get this show for a few 0:00:53.492 --> 0:00:56.172 weeks while that series is running, but then we'll be 0:00:56.232 --> 0:00:59.952 back to you in December. Today, I'm talking to our 0:01:00.152 --> 0:01:05.792 Australia reporter, Royce Kermelovs. He is at COP31 in Turkey 0:01:05.892 --> 0:01:09.051 reporting for us and a variety of other folks as well. 0:01:10.222 --> 0:01:12.522 COP is the Conference of the Parties. 0:01:12.801 --> 0:01:18.622 It's all the signatories of the UN Framework Climate Change Convention. 0:01:18.642 --> 0:01:23.831 They meet together every year to negotiate how they're going 0:01:23.842 --> 0:01:28.232 to live up to the promises made in that document. 0:01:27.792 --> 0:01:32.532 And various others drafted since then. And this year, it 0:01:32.911 --> 0:01:38.032 is in Turkey. And Australia is the co-host. If you 0:01:38.351 --> 0:01:42.112 are wondering how that happened, listen to our last COP 0:01:42.172 --> 0:01:45.042 episode where Royce explained all the drama that went down 0:01:45.062 --> 0:01:49.102 around that. At last, cop. At any rate, Royce just 0:01:49.142 --> 0:01:50.842 arrived and we wanted to get a little bit of 0:01:50.982 --> 0:01:52.912 a lay of the land and see how things are 0:01:52.932 --> 0:01:55.432 going so far. Here's that conversation. 0:02:02.572 --> 0:02:11.662 Hello, Royce. Joining us straight from the blue zone. 0:02:13.352 --> 0:02:16.432 I'm on the ground. How are you doing? 0:02:16.632 --> 0:02:16.932 I'm good. 0:02:16.992 --> 0:02:20.892 What's it like there? I know you just arrived yesterday. 0:02:20.972 --> 0:02:22.472 It's been hectic. 0:02:23.172 --> 0:02:26.072 Drilled HQ in Turkey is a bit farther from the 0:02:26.722 --> 0:02:27.842 venue than we'd like. 0:02:27.852 --> 0:02:30.722 Yeah, tell us about it. 0:02:30.722 --> 0:02:31.442 What are the vibes? 0:02:33.302 --> 0:02:36.262 Yeah, so I think one thing that everyone is experiencing 0:02:36.302 --> 0:02:40.052 at this point, locals and visitors alike, is the... I 0:02:40.072 --> 0:02:42.732 think there's something like 96,000 people that have turned up 0:02:42.752 --> 0:02:44.552 for this couple of weeks registered. And this is not 0:02:44.612 --> 0:02:50.002 counting walk-ins, late registrants and guests of delegations. So this 0:02:50.022 --> 0:02:52.742 has placed a sudden and immediate demand on the local 0:02:52.782 --> 0:02:55.562 transport network that has made it hard to both get 0:02:55.662 --> 0:03:00.242 in and get out. So yesterday, for instance, I came 0:03:00.282 --> 0:03:03.522 and got my badge on the way out. having to 0:03:03.542 --> 0:03:06.632 get a bus out was extremely hard because they're infrequent 0:03:06.672 --> 0:03:09.712 and the desperation to go home is quite high. And 0:03:09.732 --> 0:03:12.392 they also seem to have conscripted a bunch of drivers 0:03:12.412 --> 0:03:14.692 from outside of the area and just brought them in 0:03:14.732 --> 0:03:16.952 to help. And so they don't know where they're going. 0:03:16.972 --> 0:03:19.192 No one who's going onto the bus knows where they're going, 0:03:19.222 --> 0:03:20.802 but they know they want to be on the bus. 0:03:21.342 --> 0:03:21.612 Oh, God. 0:03:21.882 --> 0:03:24.782 And so it was a bit hectic. And then this morning, 0:03:24.802 --> 0:03:28.702 we've had the leaders' summit. So we had 12 leaders 0:03:28.762 --> 0:03:31.942 fly in. It was closed down roads for security purposes. 0:03:31.972 --> 0:03:34.712 And so everyone was advised that if you are going in, 0:03:34.732 --> 0:03:38.932 go in super early because you're not going to be 0:03:38.952 --> 0:03:42.342 able to get in otherwise. And so right now they're 0:03:42.422 --> 0:03:45.842 all speaking in the main room. And I think Australian 0:03:45.862 --> 0:03:48.382 Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has just spoken and tried to 0:03:48.412 --> 0:03:51.912 kind of uh, do a call to arms to keep, uh, 0:03:51.972 --> 0:03:57.052 to keep things on track. Interesting. Otherwise, this coffee has been, uh, interesting. 0:03:57.292 --> 0:04:00.392 It has been, it's very well organized once you get 0:04:00.432 --> 0:04:01.112 into the venue. 0:04:01.292 --> 0:04:04.032 Oh, well, that's a bonus. That's not always the case. 0:04:04.152 --> 0:04:06.782 So props to Turkey on that one. 0:04:07.082 --> 0:04:07.382 Yeah. 0:04:08.302 --> 0:04:11.662 You've got, you've got guys handing out free buffalo vada people. 0:04:11.722 --> 0:04:13.882 When you get in in the morning, there's free fruit 0:04:13.902 --> 0:04:18.622 for breakfast. If you skip breakfast, um, So it's a 0:04:18.662 --> 0:04:20.752 lot of work has gone into host a good party. 0:04:20.822 --> 0:04:21.491 That's interesting. 0:04:21.912 --> 0:04:23.772 Were there really long lines to get your badge and 0:04:23.812 --> 0:04:26.612 things like that? I heard people complaining about that. 0:04:26.632 --> 0:04:30.672 I was very lucky and skipped it. But yesterday on Monday, 0:04:30.712 --> 0:04:34.332 there was 4,000 people were left, a couple of thousand 0:04:34.352 --> 0:04:39.122 people were left waiting outside, even as the formal process 0:04:39.162 --> 0:04:43.392 got underway. So it's been a There's been some teething pains, 0:04:43.452 --> 0:04:43.752 I think. 0:04:43.772 --> 0:04:49.822 Okay. In terms of the actual negotiations, anything new happening? 0:04:49.962 --> 0:04:52.422 Any news coming out? I know it's pretty early. It's 0:04:52.462 --> 0:04:55.372 just day three, right, of the COP? 0:04:55.432 --> 0:04:59.822 Yeah. Day three, yes. There's a couple of things. So 0:04:59.862 --> 0:05:02.702 yesterday it was reported that Turkey has found too many 0:05:02.762 --> 0:05:05.672 oil fields and was very excited about this information. So 0:05:05.692 --> 0:05:07.412 that kind of comes in the background as the process 0:05:07.432 --> 0:05:10.552 gets underway. It is obviously still very early in the negotiations. 0:05:10.572 --> 0:05:12.592 So now the work begins of working out, well, what 0:05:12.692 --> 0:05:13.892 are people going to actually agree to? 0:05:13.922 --> 0:05:14.102 Right. 0:05:14.812 --> 0:05:16.762 But one of the things that has come up is 0:05:16.902 --> 0:05:20.541 that there has been this big electrification agenda that Turkey 0:05:20.562 --> 0:05:24.342 has been promoting with Australia also in support of it. 0:05:24.442 --> 0:05:26.682 But there has been a very cool reception to this 0:05:26.722 --> 0:05:31.012 proposal by other countries, particularly countries like the UK and Europe, 0:05:31.412 --> 0:05:34.432 because the language of this proposal doesn't have the word 0:05:34.552 --> 0:05:38.032 clean in it. Interesting. Yes, you may want to bring 0:05:38.212 --> 0:05:40.972 global electrification up to something like 30% by 2035, up 0:05:41.012 --> 0:05:43.872 from 20% where it is today. 0:05:43.892 --> 0:05:50.282 Oh, but you don't want it to be like coal-fired, right? Interesting. Yes, yes. 0:05:50.402 --> 0:05:53.062 And if you ask Australia, Australia would say, well, like, 0:05:53.162 --> 0:05:55.562 if you electrify it, it doesn't really matter where electricity 0:05:55.582 --> 0:05:59.181 comes from. It's still more efficient and still better than not. 0:05:59.502 --> 0:06:02.862 Australia would say that. I bet India might say that 0:06:02.922 --> 0:06:03.282 as well. 0:06:05.012 --> 0:06:08.592 In certain other countries might be in agreement, but the 0:06:08.832 --> 0:06:10.652 EU is taking a line saying, well, can we at 0:06:10.672 --> 0:06:11.912 least get the word clean in there? 0:06:12.632 --> 0:06:13.072 Interesting. 0:06:13.092 --> 0:06:14.752 And that seems to be a sticking point. 0:06:15.192 --> 0:06:18.212 Although, I mean, I feel like the word clean is 0:06:19.272 --> 0:06:21.482 up to interpretation as well. 0:06:21.622 --> 0:06:21.921 So, yeah. 0:06:23.142 --> 0:06:23.362 Yeah. 0:06:24.502 --> 0:06:26.912 Yes. But then, I mean, not having it in there 0:06:26.952 --> 0:06:29.772 at all kind of leaves you a gas tanker-sized loophole 0:06:29.792 --> 0:06:32.312 to which you drive whatever you want. Yeah. 0:06:32.572 --> 0:06:33.551 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:06:33.992 --> 0:06:36.592 And may end up being used to justify new coal plants. Yeah. So, 0:06:36.622 --> 0:06:37.332 you know, here we are. 0:06:37.422 --> 0:06:37.742 Yeah. 0:06:37.762 --> 0:06:42.722 Oh, that's interesting. That's really interesting. What have you seen 0:06:42.802 --> 0:06:46.562 around the Blue Zone? Any, like, blueprints? country booths that 0:06:46.622 --> 0:06:48.122 stand out or themes? 0:06:48.182 --> 0:06:52.242 But I can definitely say that the politics, once again, 0:06:52.362 --> 0:06:54.742 on display very clearly from how things are working out. 0:06:54.802 --> 0:06:58.322 For instance, Turkey, the host, has the biggest, tallest pavilion 0:06:58.362 --> 0:07:01.662 in the center of the room. The Australian pavilion is 0:07:01.702 --> 0:07:04.762 across the way. China has a very large pavilion and 0:07:04.842 --> 0:07:07.262 seems to be a very popular pavilion. And then you 0:07:07.322 --> 0:07:10.472 see Azerbaijan, also close to Turkey and other kind of 0:07:10.532 --> 0:07:15.612 big petroleum states and associated ones. So that has been 0:07:15.652 --> 0:07:16.632 an interesting part of the process. 0:07:16.772 --> 0:07:19.752 What's the media room like? How many media people are there? 0:07:20.292 --> 0:07:21.712 Does it seem like a lot of people came? 0:07:21.732 --> 0:07:26.772 Yeah. Oh, it's actually pretty full. I'm sitting in there now, 0:07:26.792 --> 0:07:28.612 which is I'm sitting by an exit, so you can 0:07:28.632 --> 0:07:31.172 probably hear that. But it's pretty full. There's a lot 0:07:31.212 --> 0:07:33.292 of interest. A lot of tables are full. What has 0:07:33.312 --> 0:07:36.732 been interesting, though, is, at least from an Australian perspective, 0:07:36.892 --> 0:07:40.192 there is a reporter from News Corp Australia who seems 0:07:40.242 --> 0:07:43.562 to have been sent halfway around the world to investigate 0:07:43.602 --> 0:07:45.222 the coffee queue at the Australian Pavilion. 0:07:47.422 --> 0:07:50.362 Well, the Australian Pavilion is well known for having the 0:07:50.402 --> 0:07:51.742 good coffee at COP. 0:07:51.802 --> 0:07:52.482 This is a thing. 0:07:53.462 --> 0:07:56.202 What? It is, but if you go to their socials, 0:07:56.222 --> 0:07:59.932 you see these videos of Vox Pops with earnest people 0:07:59.972 --> 0:08:04.272 with interesting European accents and nice suits drinking lattes and 0:08:04.332 --> 0:08:07.372 flat whites provided by the Australian taxpayer, which this reporter 0:08:07.432 --> 0:08:11.842 is suggesting is a waste of Australian taxpayer money. Although 0:08:11.902 --> 0:08:14.762 I can confirm a Turkish official in the queue told 0:08:14.802 --> 0:08:16.862 me that Australia does very good coffee, and they said 0:08:16.882 --> 0:08:18.982 that's strictly off the record, which I feel like is 0:08:19.022 --> 0:08:21.332 a soft power win. Okay. 0:08:21.472 --> 0:08:24.272 Obviously I had to go check this out for myself 0:08:24.592 --> 0:08:29.122 and it is truly something. Here is just one of 0:08:29.222 --> 0:08:32.062 this reporter's clips from Instagram. 0:08:33.242 --> 0:08:36.242 I'm at the COP 31 conference here in Turkey, and 0:08:36.281 --> 0:08:39.652 this is the Australian pavilion. Now this is where taxpayers 0:08:40.252 --> 0:08:44.372 are paying $ 32, 000 for this coffee machine here to make 0:08:44.612 --> 0:08:47.482 all these people who are lining up free drinks. Now, 0:08:47.502 --> 0:08:50.481 they've got paper cups here. They're making a range of drinks, 0:08:50.622 --> 0:08:53.422 flat whites, lattes and long blacks. 0:08:53.492 --> 0:08:54.891 Now, if you come with me down. 0:08:54.712 --> 0:08:57.972 Here, we'll look at the queue of people waiting to 0:08:58.011 --> 0:09:02.352 get coffees here. Now, remembering Australian taxpayers are paying for 0:09:02.391 --> 0:09:06.352 this here at COP 31. So, let's find out, is 0:09:06.391 --> 0:09:08.652 the coffee here any good? Really good. 0:09:08.832 --> 0:09:11.071 It feels like authentic arrabbiata. 0:09:12.372 --> 0:09:14.462 And I'm also happy it's for free. 0:09:14.482 --> 0:09:18.122 I want to thank the taxpayers for this coffee and 0:09:18.561 --> 0:09:19.541 for the joy it gives me. 0:09:20.061 --> 0:09:22.561 Well, first of all, it looks lovely and the service 0:09:22.602 --> 0:09:26.321 was great. And it's, well, it's a long line. It 0:09:26.362 --> 0:09:30.482 seems to be the perfect attraction here in the pavilions. 0:09:30.602 --> 0:09:33.881 Thank you, Australia taxpayers. We are very grateful. 0:09:34.381 --> 0:09:38.462 Amazing. I'm amazed by the fact that the crema on 0:09:38.482 --> 0:09:42.911 the long black is there. It's chowing, so amazing. 0:09:42.972 --> 0:09:43.571 No, very good. 0:09:44.271 --> 0:09:47.791 The coffee is delicious. Yeah, it's a very long line 0:09:47.832 --> 0:09:51.232 over here. Every time, whenever you come to Australian Pavilion, 0:09:51.651 --> 0:09:55.331 they always provide really, really tasty coffee, and you always 0:09:55.352 --> 0:09:57.672 see a bunch of people lined up, queued up to 0:09:57.692 --> 0:09:58.531 get that coffee. 0:09:58.952 --> 0:10:01.472 It's lunchtime here on day one of the conference, and 0:10:01.511 --> 0:10:04.212 there's plenty of people lining up for coffees here that 0:10:04.271 --> 0:10:07.131 Australian taxpayers are funding back at home. 0:10:08.252 --> 0:10:10.831 So, you know, if you see Sophie at the Australian booth, 0:10:12.622 --> 0:10:16.681 she's not operating in good faith. Also, can I just 0:10:16.722 --> 0:10:19.641 say that. 0:10:18.342 --> 0:10:20.901 $ 32, 000. 0:10:18.982 --> 0:10:21.852 Doesn't sound like a lot of money for the Australian 0:10:21.901 --> 0:10:25.911 taxpayers to be paying. I'm sure they pay at least 0:10:26.031 --> 0:10:31.051 that at various energy conferences they attend as well. Not 0:10:31.072 --> 0:10:33.192 to mention the fact that News Corp spent how much 0:10:33.271 --> 0:10:37.652 to send this ridiculous lady to the Australia coffee line? 0:10:37.671 --> 0:10:41.071 OK, back to the conversation with Royce. 0:10:42.572 --> 0:10:45.171 So, you know, I think it's worth noting, given the 0:10:45.212 --> 0:10:48.572 strain on newsroom budgets and the decision about where to 0:10:48.592 --> 0:10:49.852 send a reporter is probably. 0:10:50.391 --> 0:10:52.732 Yeah, it's interesting. 0:10:52.832 --> 0:10:56.872 I actually was just reading this morning the COP newsletter 0:10:56.911 --> 0:11:02.591 from CAD, Climate Action Against disinformation just like a coalition 0:11:02.612 --> 0:11:05.071 of a bunch of ngos and they were kind of 0:11:05.131 --> 0:11:08.642 warning there's apparently quite a few sort of um like 0:11:09.041 --> 0:11:12.781 fringy right-wing outlets at cop trying to sort of do 0:11:12.801 --> 0:11:17.491 a lot of gonzo gotcha journalism there so keep an 0:11:17.631 --> 0:11:18.051 eye out. 0:11:17.972 --> 0:11:22.391 For that yeah yeah And that kind of oppositional stuff 0:11:22.452 --> 0:11:24.552 is really interesting and something that was kind of new 0:11:24.592 --> 0:11:26.391 in the context of this process, because usually the people 0:11:26.472 --> 0:11:29.092 that go to the effort and the expense of coming 0:11:29.171 --> 0:11:30.211 out here are pretty well engaged. 0:11:30.531 --> 0:11:33.252 Interested in the process in some way, yeah. 0:11:35.372 --> 0:11:39.521 Yeah, involved. Even the people trying to sell you on Facebook. 0:11:41.612 --> 0:11:43.752 strange gas projects and things like that are at least 0:11:43.832 --> 0:11:44.872 interested in the process. 0:11:45.252 --> 0:11:49.561 You mentioned earlier that Albanese said something in the leadership summit. 0:11:49.661 --> 0:11:53.442 Are you getting any like rumors out of, um, that room? 0:11:53.502 --> 0:11:57.742 I know it's again, just for the people, um, reporters 0:11:57.781 --> 0:11:59.601 are not allowed in any of these rooms. 0:11:59.702 --> 0:12:00.582 It's very weird. 0:12:01.602 --> 0:12:05.752 Uh, you, you, as an NGO observer, you can go 0:12:05.832 --> 0:12:07.732 into some of the rooms, but I believe not the 0:12:07.771 --> 0:12:09.151 leadership summit. 0:12:09.911 --> 0:12:16.422 Um, so, um, it's really quite opaque, um, this process. 0:12:16.462 --> 0:12:17.161 And then they sort of. 0:12:17.421 --> 0:12:20.622 Come out and announce like, this is the agenda or 0:12:20.641 --> 0:12:24.002 this is what we're going to commit to, um, for, 0:12:24.141 --> 0:12:25.381 for this process. 0:12:25.442 --> 0:12:25.881 So yeah. 0:12:25.921 --> 0:12:27.381 What are you hearing so far? 0:12:27.401 --> 0:12:31.902 Well, from what I've, everyone is basically stressing that it 0:12:31.962 --> 0:12:34.742 is still very early. It is very early in the process. 0:12:34.781 --> 0:12:38.452 Basically the work is getting underway. Um, and, um, There 0:12:38.531 --> 0:12:42.852 is varying degrees of speculation, suspicion about what will move. 0:12:42.891 --> 0:12:45.742 There's been reports of some rooms moving quickly and some 0:12:45.771 --> 0:12:50.462 rooms not. Again, we're not in them, so we don't know. Also, 0:12:50.901 --> 0:12:54.761 given Australia in particular's involvement in a kind of ceremonial capacity, 0:12:54.781 --> 0:12:56.722 a lot of the focus right now seems to have 0:12:56.742 --> 0:12:59.752 been very much on Let's get the ball rolling. Let's 0:12:59.771 --> 0:13:02.321 do the speeches and say the nice words and get 0:13:02.342 --> 0:13:05.161 the process underway. And then we'll start to see how 0:13:05.181 --> 0:13:11.881 things turn out. Given the transport issues and given the leaders' 0:13:11.901 --> 0:13:14.362 summit today, a lot of places have actually cancelled a 0:13:14.381 --> 0:13:17.102 lot of public press conferences and things of that nature 0:13:17.122 --> 0:13:20.141 because you just can't get people in. Yeah. So even 0:13:20.161 --> 0:13:22.072 if it is day three, we're still kind of right 0:13:22.112 --> 0:13:24.871 at the beginning. Yes, this is the starting point of 0:13:24.891 --> 0:13:27.772 this process. But I can confirm a lot of beautiful 0:13:27.811 --> 0:13:30.791 words have been spoken. We will see where that ends 0:13:30.872 --> 0:13:31.701 up in two weeks. 0:13:32.561 --> 0:13:34.842 How have you seen If At All? 0:13:35.222 --> 0:13:38.302 The past COP presidency, the Brazilians kind of showing up 0:13:38.482 --> 0:13:43.321 here with their roadmap for transition away from fossil fuels. 0:13:43.442 --> 0:13:45.261 Yeah, I mean, and that is something that has been 0:13:45.281 --> 0:13:47.661 interesting to watch because, as you and I know, because 0:13:47.681 --> 0:13:49.732 we were there from last year, that was kind of 0:13:49.781 --> 0:13:53.232 initiated in response to Colombia doing their thing. So these 0:13:53.252 --> 0:13:56.351 two kind of aligned with slightly separate processes. And I 0:13:56.391 --> 0:14:01.972 think Brazil's, the previous COP presidency has committed to kind 0:14:02.011 --> 0:14:05.231 of continuing to steward that and encourage their takeover going forward. 0:14:05.531 --> 0:14:08.171 It is still voluntary, though. People don't have to do it. 0:14:08.431 --> 0:14:11.541 But having those sorts of documents and those processes, I mean, 0:14:11.722 --> 0:14:14.021 is going to be kind of important going forward because 0:14:14.041 --> 0:14:16.841 it offers a release valve and an outlet that may 0:14:16.921 --> 0:14:21.861 ultimately push the process into taking up those issues more seriously. 0:14:22.102 --> 0:14:27.341 And just to remind people, it's a blueprint really towards implementation, 0:14:27.382 --> 0:14:29.632 which is I think kind of mirrors what we're seeing 0:14:29.702 --> 0:14:34.502 in the Santa Marta conference from this year and the 0:14:34.642 --> 0:14:39.622 ongoing efforts there to transition off of fossil fuels and 0:14:39.681 --> 0:14:42.221 actually start to figure out the nuts and bolts of 0:14:42.262 --> 0:14:45.882 what that looks like, what's required, how it might work, 0:14:45.942 --> 0:14:49.942 all of those kinds of things, which has mostly not 0:14:49.962 --> 0:14:53.561 been ever on the agenda at COP. You know, people 0:14:53.602 --> 0:14:57.732 were excited about after the Abu Dhabi COP that the 0:14:57.811 --> 0:15:01.502 words fossil fuels were mentioned for the very first time 0:15:01.522 --> 0:15:04.802 in that process. But it seems like we've kind of 0:15:05.602 --> 0:15:09.342 gone backwards a little bit from that point where now... 0:15:09.822 --> 0:15:12.502 You know, there's more reticence. Yeah. 0:15:12.542 --> 0:15:14.042 And I mean, that was the first time they kind 0:15:14.082 --> 0:15:16.542 of named the problem, so to speak. And I mean, 0:15:17.162 --> 0:15:20.002 and I mean, that was agreed and that still stands, right? 0:15:20.022 --> 0:15:22.272 That hasn't gone anywhere. It's still there. It's just that 0:15:22.292 --> 0:15:25.232 in recent years, there's been less willingness from certain parties 0:15:25.272 --> 0:15:27.772 to allow similar language back in or a strengthening of 0:15:27.792 --> 0:15:31.512 language to explain this in very simple terms, like the 0:15:31.592 --> 0:15:35.382 two issues. Long-running issues that cause the most tension and 0:15:35.422 --> 0:15:40.321 most friction and frustration is both the future of oil, gas, 0:15:40.382 --> 0:15:45.172 and coal, and also this question around climate finance. Developed 0:15:45.232 --> 0:15:48.592 countries want to talk about mitigation and a managed phase-out 0:15:48.612 --> 0:15:52.342 of oil, gas, and coal. And developing countries say, hang 0:15:52.362 --> 0:15:55.122 on a minute. You guys agreed to stump up the 0:15:55.142 --> 0:15:58.682 cash on climate finance before you talk about mitigation and 0:15:58.722 --> 0:16:01.182 this phase-out stuff. If you give the cash, we'll do 0:16:01.222 --> 0:16:04.232 the mitigation. So where's the cash that you promised us? Now, 0:16:04.262 --> 0:16:07.292 that block of countries also includes the Arab bloc. And 0:16:07.311 --> 0:16:11.071 the Arab bloc have no particular interest in maybe slowing 0:16:11.092 --> 0:16:11.811 that process down. 0:16:11.832 --> 0:16:15.072 Particularly Saudi Arabia. They have a reputation for a reason. 0:16:15.252 --> 0:16:15.552 Yes. 0:16:15.972 --> 0:16:16.172 Yes. 0:16:16.232 --> 0:16:17.912 Yeah. And that is kind of the work that is 0:16:18.002 --> 0:16:22.352 beginning currently because... like those issues get worked out through 0:16:22.392 --> 0:16:26.272 negotiations the electrification stuff that turkey's promoting is voluntary as 0:16:26.332 --> 0:16:28.632 part of the action agenda it's a good headline if 0:16:28.652 --> 0:16:31.262 they can get it yeah but the the core part 0:16:31.302 --> 0:16:34.082 of it is the workaround though like those two and 0:16:34.162 --> 0:16:37.162 other issues that get handed up to negotiations so the 0:16:37.202 --> 0:16:41.201 big question going forward is how will australia in particular 0:16:41.242 --> 0:16:43.682 and chris bowen who is in charge of overseeing that 0:16:43.722 --> 0:16:47.272 conversation how will they deal with that, because that is 0:16:47.372 --> 0:16:50.332 a very tough hand to be dealt at this point. 0:16:50.352 --> 0:16:51.092 Yeah. 0:16:51.832 --> 0:16:54.272 Especially when the read seems to be that without the 0:16:54.292 --> 0:16:58.172 United States, we're just not going to get a transformative 0:16:58.212 --> 0:17:01.462 arrangement until Donald Trump leaves office, essentially. 0:17:01.522 --> 0:17:01.762 Yeah. 0:17:02.362 --> 0:17:02.762 Interesting. 0:17:03.061 --> 0:17:04.382 I was going to ask you about that, too, if 0:17:04.422 --> 0:17:10.002 there's any sense from people there that, like, I don't know, 0:17:10.102 --> 0:17:13.662 it's in some ways so, like, Americans who care about 0:17:13.702 --> 0:17:17.832 climate action were very excited about the midterm election results, right? 0:17:17.871 --> 0:17:22.962 There was a huge changeover of, um, Congress and the Senate. 0:17:23.101 --> 0:17:26.462 And that should mean that there's less of a block 0:17:26.522 --> 0:17:30.641 around policy and things like that. However, the fact remains that, um, 0:17:30.922 --> 0:17:32.962 you know, it's not like Trump is going to rejoin 0:17:33.442 --> 0:17:34.792 Paris or anything like that. 0:17:34.851 --> 0:17:35.052 Right. 0:17:35.132 --> 0:17:38.672 So it's almost, I almost wonder if it in some 0:17:38.692 --> 0:17:43.392 ways is worse for an international, um, negotiation like this, 0:17:43.472 --> 0:17:47.022 where it's like, oh, well, if we just hang on 0:17:47.081 --> 0:17:50.141 for two years, then the U.S. will be back in. 0:17:50.222 --> 0:17:51.122 And like, you know what I mean? 0:17:51.142 --> 0:17:54.642 I don't know. I'm curious how you're hearing it spoken about. 0:17:55.932 --> 0:17:58.832 Absolutely. And I think that is the issue. I mean, 0:17:59.652 --> 0:18:04.321 I think there is a long running view that as 0:18:04.361 --> 0:18:08.102 was said in Brazil last year, that the US has 0:18:08.162 --> 0:18:10.852 pulled out before, and the US itself can be quite 0:18:10.882 --> 0:18:13.871 obstructionist in many ways. So without the US, there are 0:18:13.932 --> 0:18:17.971 new opportunities. However, I do agree that there is also 0:18:18.091 --> 0:18:22.032 a potential risk that reading the midterms as a win 0:18:22.052 --> 0:18:24.991 for climate, which in some ways it was, does not 0:18:25.032 --> 0:18:27.562 change the current status of the US as a nation. 0:18:28.081 --> 0:18:32.331 And basically everyone's wishing upon a return to normal, a 0:18:32.351 --> 0:18:36.912 mean reversion, a return to average. And you're assuming that 0:18:37.601 --> 0:18:41.422 even if the U.S. reenters Paris, the U.S. is going 0:18:41.442 --> 0:18:44.722 to act in the same way when it's quite possible 0:18:44.742 --> 0:18:47.101 the facts on the ground as they are have radically 0:18:47.142 --> 0:18:49.282 changed by the time the U.S. decides to reenter and 0:18:49.422 --> 0:18:51.662 then resume a position in the part of this process. 0:18:52.052 --> 0:18:56.552 I mean, we're already seeing China... massively manufacture and sell, 0:18:56.571 --> 0:18:59.532 you know, just solar panels as the cheapest form of power. EVs, 0:18:59.712 --> 0:19:01.692 you know, those are flooding the market across the board. 0:19:02.012 --> 0:19:04.131 There's a question of whether China wants to play a 0:19:04.132 --> 0:19:07.132 more active role in this process. It hasn't stepped up yet, 0:19:07.292 --> 0:19:10.071 but it's looking like it may in the future and 0:19:10.091 --> 0:19:14.191 there's signals that it might. And I think a lot 0:19:14.212 --> 0:19:17.892 of the, there's a lot of diplomatic analysis based, at least, 0:19:18.091 --> 0:19:23.372 like wishing and hanging on the hopeful future where Donald 0:19:23.392 --> 0:19:27.821 Trump leaves. Democrats take over and the US re-enters this 0:19:27.861 --> 0:19:33.581 process and everything will go back to normal. I suspect 0:19:33.702 --> 0:19:36.482 that that says a lot about the particular countries making 0:19:36.502 --> 0:19:41.022 that analysis and perhaps might be a misread of the 0:19:41.042 --> 0:19:42.482 global circumstances. 0:19:45.242 --> 0:19:47.542 I think there's no way in which the Iran war 0:19:47.601 --> 0:19:51.122 is not having an impact on all of those things, right? 0:19:51.242 --> 0:19:53.701 Have you heard any kind of discussion around that or 0:19:53.902 --> 0:19:58.722 around volatility of oil prices in general, the kind of 0:19:58.942 --> 0:20:03.612 larger geopolitical situation that this COP is unfolding and all 0:20:03.672 --> 0:20:04.312 that kind of thing? 0:20:06.282 --> 0:20:09.662 Well, that is the interesting thing that's supposed to feed 0:20:09.722 --> 0:20:12.061 into this electrification push, right? Because that's supposed to kind 0:20:12.081 --> 0:20:14.881 of capture a lot of those anxieties and fears and 0:20:14.902 --> 0:20:19.022 concerns from countries. And for many observers, their electrification stuff 0:20:19.242 --> 0:20:21.762 seemed like something that would have been non-controversial and a 0:20:21.802 --> 0:20:24.601 non-brainer and would have got up. But I think with 0:20:24.642 --> 0:20:27.362 European countries in particular kind of being like, well, where's 0:20:27.402 --> 0:20:29.482 the clean energy, guys? And kind of being a bit 0:20:29.532 --> 0:20:32.962 cooler on this process. That then makes other countries go, well, 0:20:33.022 --> 0:20:36.482 why should we sign up to this voluntary commitment if 0:20:36.561 --> 0:20:41.202 Europe's not going to? And then that kind of makes 0:20:41.222 --> 0:20:44.182 the momentum much harder to get going. And if Turkey 0:20:44.222 --> 0:20:47.362 and Australia can't get agreement on that, then that's what 0:20:47.422 --> 0:20:51.052 should have been a pretty easy headline that has not 0:20:51.091 --> 0:20:53.611 been achieved. So that does not bode well for things 0:20:53.632 --> 0:20:57.391 going forward. That said, it is no one's interest to 0:20:57.432 --> 0:21:01.292 allow this process to fail. The goal seems to be 0:21:01.311 --> 0:21:06.212 the goal is everyone's in survival mode. So they want 0:21:06.252 --> 0:21:09.332 this to achieve something, even if it's not nothing. Yeah. 0:21:09.922 --> 0:21:12.542 That makes sense. OK, last thing I wanted to ask 0:21:12.561 --> 0:21:13.662 you about is protest. 0:21:13.722 --> 0:21:16.232 When we were in Brazil last year, like the first 0:21:16.272 --> 0:21:19.871 thing we saw coming up to the blue zone was. 0:21:19.772 --> 0:21:21.472 A massive protest. 0:21:21.512 --> 0:21:23.891 Right. And then that led to just quite a lot 0:21:23.912 --> 0:21:26.831 of military police presence the rest of the time. 0:21:27.522 --> 0:21:29.142 Sure, sure was. 0:21:29.262 --> 0:21:31.762 So, yeah, I'm curious what you're seeing in Turkey. 0:21:32.121 --> 0:21:33.841 Just off the bat, I mean, I haven't seen any 0:21:33.882 --> 0:21:35.782 protests so far. I understand that I've been here before. 0:21:36.522 --> 0:21:39.442 and certainly not on the scale of Brazil. I think 0:21:39.581 --> 0:21:42.201