1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 3: So I'm Josh and there's Chuck and it's just the 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 3: two of us and we're gonna do just fine. 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: I have a good feeling because this is stuff you 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 2: should know. We've been at it for decades now. 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 4: Not decades, well, in different decades. 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: Right, that's how people get you. Yeah, they say stuff 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 2: like that. 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: That's right, Big CoA for this one. It is about 11 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: a very gruesome tragedy that we're gonna detail, and we're 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: gonna talk about a little bit of the gruesome stuff, 13 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: but not get to you know, detailed, because it was 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: a terrible tragedy. But we just want to alert listeners, 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: especially our younger listeners, that some of this stuff is 16 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: pretty terrible. That is the events of the High Regency 17 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: Hotel in Kansas City, Missouri in nineteen eighty one. 18 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was just one year after that hotel opened. 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 4: Right, that's right. 20 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: This is the High Regency, a forty five story, seven 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: hundred room hotel that opened in July of nineteen eighty 22 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: It was a part of a big suite a complex 23 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: called the Crown Center. Huh Yeah, the Crown Center complex, 24 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: and it had retail, had housing, all kinds of stuff 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 1: owned by the Hallmark Corporation. 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 3: That's where the Crown came from. Because remember if you 27 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 3: turn a Hallmark card over sometimes it says Crown. 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 4: Well then their logo is a Crown. 29 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that too. But this hotel, Chuck. 30 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: If you go back and look at pictures of it 31 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 3: pre disaster, it was magnificent. Like if you looked up, 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 3: you would see that there was a high hall a 33 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 3: walkway right over your head. And that was actually one 34 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: of three that were kind of like the signature design 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: of this atrium at the High Regions see Kansas City. 36 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 4: That's right. 37 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: And like we said, this thing had been open for 38 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: about a year when the collapse tragedy occurred. During one 39 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: of their they were hosting these weekend tea dances, which 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: apparently were very popular in town. It was sort of 41 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: an antiquated old school thing that they did, but the 42 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: people of Kansas City ate it up and they were 43 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: just growing bigger and bigger with every weekend. And on 44 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: this particular weekend they had, you know, as they did, 45 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: they had a live band playing, and I saw anywhere 46 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: from I saw a thousand people in different places. This 47 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: is one of those things where like every time you 48 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: see a different video, you'll get different numbers and different things, 49 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: and these can be a little frustrating sometimes. But at 50 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: least a thousand, yeah, and maybe as many as two 51 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: thousand people there hanging out, partying and dancing in the lobby. 52 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 53 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 3: I mean, if you see there's footage of it, because 54 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 3: I think one of the local TV stations was doing 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 3: a human interest piece on how popular these this dance 56 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 3: had becomes Friday night dance, and that place was packed 57 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: with people, not just in the atrium on the floor, 58 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: but also up at the terrace restaurant and on those 59 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 3: three walkways that span the entire length of the atrium 60 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 3: from one side to another on the second, third, and 61 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 3: fourth floors. So there was a ton of people. And 62 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: the number I most commonly saw was fifteen hundred, so 63 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 3: I guess everybody else split the difference. 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's crowded, it's packed full of people. A 65 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: little after seven o'clock, the band comes back from a 66 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: break to play their final big number of the dance contest. 67 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: And you know, when you look at interviews with people 68 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: from the time, they all describe hearing three loud popping 69 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: noises or snapping noises. They sounded like, you know, some 70 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: people said they sounded like gunshots going off. 71 00:03:58,880 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 4: In very quick success. 72 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: Floors the walkways of on floors four and two collapsed 73 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: fully these cement and we're going to go over you 74 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: know why this happened and what these are all were 75 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: made of, but you know, steel and concrete, and it 76 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: was super heavy and collapsed on hundreds and hundreds of 77 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: people below. 78 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 3: Yes, so these each one I think, weighed something like 79 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 3: thirty two tons, each of these walkways did, and one 80 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 3: was above the number. The fourth story walkway was directly 81 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: above the second story walkway, so much so that the 82 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: second story walkway was dangling from the fourth story walkway. 83 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: So in the fourth story walkway gave it came down, 84 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 3: the second story hit the ground first, the fourth story 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 3: walkway hit the second floor. So there was like a 86 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: stratum or a strata of layers of destruction of debris 87 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: and people were pin chuck beneath two thirty two ton 88 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 3: walkways that were in four segments. So each segment wasn't 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 3: thirty two tons, but it was enough to really do 90 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 3: a lot of damage, like immediately, like apparently it happened 91 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 3: in the blink of an eye basically, and I mean, 92 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 3: like it's really tough to get across, like how much 93 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: of a tragedy this was. Like there were couples dancing 94 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 3: that were killed simultaneously by this stuff, So that means 95 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 3: that there were people in Kansas City who lost both 96 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 3: parents all at once, or lost one parent, or lost 97 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: a friend. Like a lot of people were impacted by 98 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: this tragedy and it just happened in just the blink 99 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 3: of an eye. 100 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it ripped from the ceiling and they 101 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: just collapsed. The eyewitness accounts if you see any of 102 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: the either contemporaneous footage or they've done interviews with people 103 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: since and like follow up documentaries and such, it's just awful. 104 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: Everyone talked about how in like the some people set 105 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: up to like five seconds afterward, it was just complete silence, 106 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: like obviously the every the band had stopped and there 107 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: was just a brief moment of nothingness and then all 108 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: of a sudden screaming, wailing people in some of the 109 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: most horrible pain and circumstances that you can imagine, which 110 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: again we're going to get to a little bit, But 111 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: it's if you really want to dive into the down 112 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: the rabbit hole of what all happened to these folks, 113 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: you can you can look this stuff up online. 114 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's actually a lot of really well written 115 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: articles on it from out of Kansas City. 116 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: But the the in. 117 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 3: That chaos that ensued almost immediately, there were a lot 118 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 3: of people pinned underneath. There were people who've been injured 119 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 3: by debris, and then there were other people who were 120 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 3: nearby and were just dazed and weren't really injured at all, 121 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 3: but just couldn't believe what they'd just seen. And then 122 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 3: there was a small kind of cadre people among the 123 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: witnesses who just kind of immediately sprang into action. And 124 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 3: we you see footage of the immedia affrom at. You 125 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 3: see men in suits and women in dresses like trying 126 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 3: to pick through the debris and get people out of 127 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 3: there as fast as they can. And all of this 128 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: just started even before the fire department and police department 129 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 3: showed up to start to take charge of things. People 130 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 3: just immediately some people had an impulse to go in 131 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 3: there and help. 132 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was and you know, we should mention that 133 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: the fire Department of the Cops. Everyone got there really 134 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: really fast. Yeah, apparently they were also close to hospitals. 135 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: I think there were three, it was called Hospital Hill, 136 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: three hospitals that were really nearby that started taking people on. 137 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: They were working, you know, basically into the night and 138 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: into the next morning, with a final death toll of 139 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: one hundred and fourteen people perished and more than two 140 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: hundred were injured. And I think they still listed as 141 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: an American history, at least the largest structural disaster in history. 142 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 3: That it was until September eleventh, the largest in American history, 143 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 3: and then it became the largest accidental structural disaster in 144 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: American history. So, yeah, one hundred and fourteen people dead, 145 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: one hundred and eleven like basically dead on the scene. 146 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 3: Three more people who were gravely injured died later on 147 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 3: from their injuries. And the people who survived there were 148 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 3: incredibly survivors who were pinned under these walkways as slabs 149 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: of concrete, but they were in terrible shape. And there 150 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 3: was a man named Mark Williams who was a survivor, 151 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 3: and he's if you read about this or watch videos 152 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 3: on it, he's very prominent. He's a very outspoken type 153 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 3: of guy, and he talked a lot about being rescued. 154 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 3: He was the last person rescued all the way at 155 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 3: four thirty am, but he was at the bar that 156 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 3: was directly beneath the walkways and realized what was happening 157 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: and started to run. Those walkways fell so fast that 158 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: apparently he didn't even get his first stride, but his 159 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 3: legs were astride and so he was smushed down into 160 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 3: a split and that's where he stayed until four thirty am. 161 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 3: And this happened at like seven pm, and he survived. 162 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 3: He managed to live. And there were other stories like 163 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: that too, a little eleven year old boy who was 164 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 3: pulled out of the rubble. A few people I think 165 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 3: six or seven or something like that were did manage 166 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 3: to survive, but the vast majority of people who were 167 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 3: on or under the walkways when they collapsed died. 168 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, there was. 169 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:44,079 Speaker 1: There were situations where they had to amputate arms and 170 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: legs on the spot just to get people out of 171 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: there and give them a chance at living, and they 172 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: did this kind of thing with chainsaws. There was one 173 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: and this is really gruesome, but there was one horrific 174 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: story of a guy that was, you know, trying to 175 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: pull someone out and the guy's arm just comes off 176 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: and he's holding it, and the officer on charge said, 177 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: the guy just set it down and left. And you know, 178 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: we'll get to the PTSD that obviously followed, but a 179 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: lot of these first responders, you know, there were some 180 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: suicides later on. There was alcoholism and drug use and 181 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: lives and shambles because they didn't have stuff, like you know, 182 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: they went to work the next day. They weren't like, 183 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: all right, we need to get you into counseling quick 184 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: like and start taking care of you. And that's one 185 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: of the big changes that came out of this was 186 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: PTSD therapy for emergency responders. 187 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it had an impact on the entire city. 188 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: I mean, people who weren't there, people who didn't even 189 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 3: know people who were there, were still impacted for years 190 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 3: and years. It just had it just left a blotch 191 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 3: on the city. It was just such a horrible tragedy. 192 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 3: And there are a couple of other stories that stuck 193 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 3: out to me of the people who died. One that 194 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 3: did was a woman named Lynn Vander Hayden who's twenty two, 195 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: and she would just happen to be walking through the 196 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 3: lobby on her way to the Revolving restaurant on the 197 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 3: top of the hotel. She was just passing through and 198 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 3: she died. And then another one that stood out as 199 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: a man named Oscar Grimm, who pushed his wife Joan 200 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 3: out of the way and she lived and he died. 201 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 3: But he managed to act that quickly that he was 202 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: able to save his wife's life. His last act on 203 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 3: earth was to save his wife's life, which I think 204 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 3: is remarkable. 205 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. So they turn the you know, it 206 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: basically becomes a war zone. Immediately, they turn one room 207 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: into a triage center. They turned one room into a 208 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: temporary morgue. They're trying to get people out of there 209 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: and into the parking lot. It is summertime, so was 210 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: still daylight during the initial efforts, but as darkness fell, 211 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: the power had been blown. So then it becomes dark 212 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: overnight when they're still you know, sort of digging through there, 213 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: either trying to get dead bodies out or trying to 214 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: get people out that are still just wailing in the darkness. 215 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: And not only that, but the sprinkler system had torn 216 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: apart and a water pipe burst and for about fifty 217 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: minutes this. You know, parts of this room were filling 218 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: up with water, and you know, let's say you're trapped 219 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: in a very small, confined space is filling up with water. 220 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: There were survivors that said they thought they were going 221 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: to drown all of a sudden. 222 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 3: I didn't see that anyone definitively did drown, but the 223 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 3: people on the bottom of the pile were definitely in 224 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 3: danger of it for sure. It took forty five minutes, 225 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: I think, to finally turn the water off forty eight 226 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 3: forty eight and then but there was a quick thinking 227 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 3: fire chief. I don't know if it was a deputy 228 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 3: chief I saw. I didn't get their name, and there 229 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 3: were a bunch of deputy chiefs there, but they were like, 230 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 3: we need to bulldoze these front doors because they're acting 231 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: as a damn. So they bulldozed the doors and let 232 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 3: the water out and kind of saved the day. But 233 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: that was I mean, imagine being pinned beneath this rubble 234 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 3: and now you might accidentally drown. 235 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 2: Like what a day. 236 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. It was a tragedy that still looms large. 237 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: And maybe we should take a break and talk about 238 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: what happened and why this happened right after this. 239 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 3: So, Chuck, there were so many people and very fortunately, 240 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 3: like you said, they were near a few hospitals, but 241 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 3: they ended up requiring seventeen emergency rooms for this. 242 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 243 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: They construction companies came in and were donating forklifts, they 244 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: were donating cranes, people were donating their own personal equipment. 245 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: Everybody basically came and chipped in. You mentioned those front 246 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: doors being knocked down. They ended up knocking holes through 247 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: the entire front of the hotel, not holes like there 248 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: was no front of the hotel because they had to 249 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: get a crane in there eventually. Because all the equipment 250 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: that they were trying to get forklifts, I mean, you 251 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: name it, to try and lift these concrete slabs, it 252 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: was just pushing everything out of the way. So they 253 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: ended up having to bring in, like, you know, the 254 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: most heavy duty construction crane you can imagine to pull 255 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: these things up eventually. 256 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: So I saw, Chuck that like there were all these 257 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: amazing acts of people of generosity, of heroism, and just 258 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: people coming together. And I also saw from some of 259 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: the people who were involved that within our of the tragedy, 260 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 3: the mood did like a one to eighty, and people 261 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 3: started to want to know what happened, what had gone wrong, 262 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: and who was to blame, because it was very clearly 263 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 3: something had gone terribly wrong with the structure of those skywalks, 264 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 3: and people wanted to know why because again, this was 265 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: just such a catastrophic loss of life it was almost incomprehensible. 266 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: But it started to settle in that it had happened 267 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 3: and that somebody somewhere was to blame and people wanted 268 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 3: to know. 269 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. 270 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: So what they eventually figured out, and this was after 271 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: some pretty amazing investigation by the National Bureau of Standards 272 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: which is now the National Institute of Standards and Technology. 273 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: They were I mean they did they X rayed material, 274 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: they did metallurgical examinations of steel, they did, you know, 275 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: physics tests, They did everything you could imagine to figure 276 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: out what went wrong and what they landed on. It 277 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: turns out they didn't really need to do any of 278 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: those tests. It was a design change that was, as 279 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: it turns out, basically rubber stamped. The original design of 280 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: these walkways that were again two and four were suspended 281 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: above each other, and floor number three, which didn't collapse, 282 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: was just offset from that one kind of over the 283 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: center of the atrium. But the original design called for 284 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: these skywalks to be held together with one, you know, 285 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: group of continuous steel rods that went through both floors, 286 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: and all the sets of these hollow beams threaded with nuts. 287 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: But this was like, you know, forty five feet or 288 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: so of threaded rod. And they said, you know what, 289 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: threading wears out, and if you thread a nut forty 290 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: five feet, that's a long way, and eventually by the 291 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: time you get to where you want to go that 292 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: things are not going to be as strong as it 293 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: needs to be. So they changed the design to basically 294 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: hang the second floor from the first the fourth floor 295 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: using two sets of rods instead of one continuous set, 296 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: which basically double the weight of what everything was hanging 297 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: on on floor four. There's a great YouTube video. I 298 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: believe the guy is English. His name is Tom Scott, 299 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: but he got an engineer, this guy named Grady from 300 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: Practical Engineers, who put it like this. Imagine a long 301 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: rope that two friends are hanging on. One person's hanging 302 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: above the other. That's fine. Then imagine that same rope 303 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: with the same two people hanging but in this case, 304 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: the second person is hanging from the other person's ankles, 305 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: so the total weight is the same, but the stress 306 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: on that first person or in this case, that first 307 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: top fourth floor is different. 308 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 309 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 3: I saw a guy named Bill Quip Klapman who said 310 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 3: flagpole instead of rope. So I think that kind of 311 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 3: demonstrates Chuck that because it's such an easy analogy that 312 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 3: you could have looked at these designs and I mean 313 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 3: you specifically and me and been like, are you sure 314 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 3: this is the same as what you guys originally had, 315 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 3: Like as far as the math goes, it was, I 316 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: wouldn't have So it was so radically different, But at 317 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 3: the same time, it seemed like, yeah, it's a no brainer. 318 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 3: Of course that's what you're gonna do, because not only 319 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: are those could those threads wear out? Like how you're 320 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 3: gonna have to put the entire skywalk on each of 321 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 3: those six threads, those six hanging rods threaded hanging rods, 322 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 3: Like you're gonna have to slide them down, and of 323 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 3: course you're gonna damage some of those threads and then 324 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: they're totally useless. You won't be able to screw those 325 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 3: nuts all the way up to the bottom of the 326 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 3: skywalk any longer. So what you're gonna do? You just 327 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 3: cut it in half. It makes total sense. It's still 328 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: the same general design. The two skywalks are hanging from 329 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 3: the ceiling, but like you said, now, the second floor 330 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: skywalk is hanging from the fourth floor skywalk. That was 331 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 3: a catastrophic mistake because the skywalks themselves were in no way, 332 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 3: shape or form designed to hold up their own weight, 333 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: and they were attached on either end to basically portals 334 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 3: that led to the hallways that continued on the fourth, 335 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: second and third floor on either side. Those connections to 336 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 3: those portals were in no way, shape or form designed 337 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: to hold the walkway up. So I think I said. 338 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: They spanned the entire length of the atrium, which is 339 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty feet, So these were one hundred 340 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 3: and twenty feet long skywalks, and they had brass handrails 341 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 3: at waist high, and then between that and the skywalk 342 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 3: was class It was super cool looking, super late seventies 343 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 3: early eighties design. 344 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: Right. 345 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 3: They were attached to the end hallways on either side, 346 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 3: so they were basically like the hallways were just suddenly 347 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 3: stripped of everything around them except for the part you 348 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 3: walked on, and that's what crossed to the tre It's 349 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 3: pretty cool. And they were attached to the hallways that 350 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 3: continued on either side through portals, and the actual span 351 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 3: itself was held aloft by three box beams that were 352 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 3: perpendicular to the length of the walkways themselves. Right, So 353 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 3: you had basically it looked like a kid swing, but 354 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 3: three of them, and then you had the walkway spanning 355 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 3: those three things. Does that make sense? 356 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 4: I think so. 357 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 3: So the walkway was held up by those three box 358 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 3: beams that were held aloft each by two hanging rods, 359 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 3: and it just it just couldn't do it. What's surprising 360 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 3: to me is that it lasted a full year after 361 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 3: it opened. 362 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I mean, I guess we could go 363 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: over the load bearing here. That seems to be a 364 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: pretty good place for it. The NBS, like I said, 365 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: he was doing the investigating. They you know, they did testing. 366 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: They built their own version of this stuff, and they 367 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: went and found that the load bearing capacity for just 368 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: one individual connection was eighty one killo newtons, which I've 369 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: never heard of before. 370 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 3: To clear things up, chuck, a kill a newton is 371 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 3: equal to one kilogram meter per second squared, So I'm. 372 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: Sure that clears it up for everybody. Right, And that's 373 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: just the you know, that's called the dead low. That's 374 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: the way to the structure itself. If you have people 375 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: on it, obviously it's going to be a lot different. 376 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: And there were a lot of people on this. They 377 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: were up there having a good time and dancing and partying. 378 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: They said that would add another eleven killo newtons, So 379 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: eventually you get to a total you know, by the 380 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: time it collapsed, a total weight of ninety five killer newtons, 381 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: which was fourteen more than it was even supposed to 382 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: hold to begin with. 383 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: Right, that's just like, that's how it was in reality. 384 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 3: The thing that makes it even worse to me is 385 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: that that doesn't meet code at all. Like code is 386 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 3: that you would have to basically double that amount of 387 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 3: load bearing capacity to have passed inspection. And yet these 388 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 3: things passed inspection. 389 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 4: Oh at the time it was double yes. 390 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that wasn't a change. Like this thing passed 391 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: inspection despite the code requiring it to be able to 392 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 3: support one hundred and eighty one killer newtons. Like you said, 393 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: they were able to support eighty one killer newtons. So 394 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 3: it was a terrible design. And the only explanation was 395 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 3: that the actual explanation that when they changed that design 396 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 3: from the singular rods, which is two guys hanging separately 397 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: on a fire pole or a rope rather than hanging 398 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 3: on their ankles, when they changed it, no one did 399 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 3: the calculations to see if it would hold up. And 400 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 3: that is exactly what happened. 401 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, they you know, they did. 402 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: Of course, something like this happens, you're gonna inspect, like 403 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: the welding, you're gonna inspect the steel. 404 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 4: I know. 405 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: They subpoened the actual steel manufacturer and the welding company 406 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: and the GC and like basically everybody involved. And what 407 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: they found was this thing basically like the welds would 408 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: eventually rip. They had these two sort of sea bracket 409 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: beams that they welded together to form one hollow, squared beam, 410 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: and the rods ran through the middle of these and 411 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: those did split, and the bolts basically pulled. You can 412 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: see pictures where it just pulled right up through the 413 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: center of them. But they said that this would have 414 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: happened anyway even if it was like a solid steel 415 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: beam and not too welded together. 416 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 4: It wasn't because the welds. 417 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: It wasn't because of anything basically other than the fact 418 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: that this design change made it almost inevitable. 419 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 3: So this design change was done by the steel fabricator 420 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: on what are called shop drawings, and shop drawings are 421 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 3: basically like a close up explanation of exactly how you're 422 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 3: supposed to manufacture what the engineer or the architect wants right, 423 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 3: And the steel fabricator says that they called the architect 424 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 3: in charge, a guy named Daniel Duncan, and got his 425 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: approval over the phone to change the rods from one 426 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 3: single rod to two rods split in half. 427 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 2: And that was it. 428 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 3: There was no no one on the steel fabricator side 429 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 3: did the calculations, and yet they stamped their approval on it. 430 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 3: Dan Duncan didn't do the calculations, and yet he stamped 431 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 3: his approval on it. And then a guy named Jack Gillham, 432 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 3: who was the art of the engineer of record who 433 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: Dan Duncan worked for and was in charge of this project, 434 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 3: he didn't do the calculations and he stamped a steal 435 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 3: of approval on that change as well. So it made 436 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 3: it through. It made it through the process. That it's 437 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 3: supposed to go through. And when you're sitting there building this, 438 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 3: or when you're sitting there putting all this together and 439 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 3: you're looking at this and it's got all three stamps 440 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 3: that it's supposed to have, you're pretty sure that it's 441 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 3: the way it's supposed to be. People don't stop and 442 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 3: question that kind of thing, or at least they didn't 443 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 3: during this construction phase. 444 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 445 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: I think that's so important to remember, because I think 446 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: people stop all the time and say things aren't safe 447 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: and that we should revisit stuff. Yeah, but they didn't 448 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 1: hear there was even apparently, you know, in interviews after 449 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: the fact, there were crew from the build site that 450 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: we're saying like they saw these beams sort of stressing 451 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: and bending a little bit when they were putting this 452 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: thing together. There was a collapse earlier, a huge section 453 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: of the roof collapse on this building in the middle 454 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: of the night while they were building it. So this 455 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: was a project that already had sort of one near 456 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: tragedy averted on its hands, and it was just sort 457 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: of pushed through and no one spoke up. And of 458 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: course I'm not blaming the builder who saw the steel, 459 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: but like, you know, everyone should be able to stand 460 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: up and say and not just assume that someone else 461 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: knows what they're doing when it comes to a project 462 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: like this. 463 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's essential, and I think that this 464 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: disaster actually kind of helped change that too. That was 465 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 3: one of the things that did change. So I'd say, Chuck, 466 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 3: we take a break and come back and talk about 467 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 3: some of the fallout from this. 468 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 4: All right, let's do it. 469 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: So before we broke, you mentioned a guy named Jack Gillham, 470 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: who was the engineer in charge of the project. 471 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 4: Gillham would go on to be a public speaker. 472 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: He later went on to say, you know that the 473 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: problem this is a quote was so obvious that a 474 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: first year engineering student could have figured it out too. 475 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 4: Little, too late. 476 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: Obviously, there was a tribunal form by the Missouri Board 477 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: of Professional Engineers in nineteen eighty four in the years 478 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: following that ruled it they were grossly negligent. The phone 479 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: approval was obviously grossly negligent, and there was quote a 480 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: conscious indifference to professional duty. 481 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 4: So how does that happen? 482 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,719 Speaker 1: It was a time where there was a lot of 483 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: production and construction being rushed through, not just there but 484 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: all over the place the late seventies in the early eighties, 485 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: it just seems like there were a lot of fast 486 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: track projects. There wasn't as much oversight, there weren't as 487 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: many rules in place, and there was a lot of 488 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: stuff ed. Who helped us out with this pointed out 489 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: the Kemper Arena roof collapse in seventy nine. The Hartford 490 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: Civic Center had another collapse in the year before in 491 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: seventy eight. The chat Plain Towers in Miami that collapsed 492 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, they were built in that time, 493 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: in the late seventies and early eighties, So it just 494 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: seems like it was a time where you know, people 495 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: were probably just rushing around trying to make money. Greed 496 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: is always a factor, I think in stuff like this 497 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: and just trying to build bill build. 498 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: So yeah, but. 499 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there were it was a cascading chain of 500 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 3: failures to not pass the buck, to actually stop and 501 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 3: look at things. But you can really lay at the 502 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: most at Duncan and Gilliam's feet, and that tribunal that 503 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 3: Gillam went through found, like you said, that he was 504 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 3: grossly negligent, But the way that they proved his negligence 505 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: was that his firm had a policy that the engineer 506 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 3: of record on any project had to verify all plans 507 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 3: and all changes them before stamping. 508 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 2: It with approval. 509 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 3: And the fact that he had failed to meet his 510 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 3: own requirements, that tribunal said, that's proof positive that you 511 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: were negligent in this. And then they also said, apparently 512 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 3: he had a lot of pushback that he was giving. 513 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 3: He would not accept responsibility. He deflected it at every turn, 514 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 3: and it was so his attitude about it was so cavalier. 515 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 2: They said that. 516 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: They cited it as an additional breach of professional obligations. 517 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 3: It was that bad that, like his refusal accept responsibility, 518 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 3: was yet another piece of negligence that happened after the fact. 519 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, if all this stuff sounds criminal, 520 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: none of it rose to any kind of criminal proceeding. 521 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 4: It was a civil legal quagmire. 522 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: Like we said, it was owned by Hallmark Cards, this 523 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: building and the ones around and there were one hundred 524 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: and thirty plus lawsuits. They didn't all get together and 525 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: kind of go after them together, which you know sometimes 526 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: can happen. 527 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 4: They were fragmented. 528 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: Some people went at it alone, some people got together 529 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: with you know a few other people. And there were 530 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty suits plus total, seeking more than 531 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: three billion dollars in damages. The hotel costs fifty million 532 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: dollars to build to begin with, like the entire operation, 533 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: And depending on the cases, they always settled, sometimes kind 534 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: of right up until they were supposed to go to trial. 535 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: But they did settle all of them in various ways. 536 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: There was a woman named Winfred Witscher who got five 537 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: hundred dollars because her face got cut. There was a 538 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: widow and four kids of Henry Botnan who got six 539 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars. Different federal courts would come in or 540 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: different judges would come in and basically say all right, 541 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: let's let's get together on a large settlement when it 542 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: ended up being one thousand dollars to basically anybody who 543 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: could prove they were there period, like whether or not 544 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: they were injured. If you could prove you were there, 545 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: you would get a thousand bucks. 546 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I guess waive any right to sue after 547 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: that point. Well, sure, But they ended up paying out 548 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 3: something like one hundred and forty million dollars. Most of 549 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 3: it came from Hallmark. 550 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw one fifty well, and that's. 551 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: In early eighties dollars, I believe, right. 552 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean not close to the three bill. 553 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 2: No, no, no, for sure. 554 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 3: But they Hallmark ended up paying out, mostly because they 555 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 3: were the ultimate owner of that hotel, and from what 556 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 3: I saw, they were. There was a guy who was 557 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 3: suing Hallmark, but Hallmark settled, and the lawyer had done 558 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 3: all this extensive research and discovery and it basically found 559 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: that Hallmark was really more culpable than anyone thought, and 560 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 3: Hallmark's Hallmark settled. The thing never got published, but I 561 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 3: got the impression that's why Hallmark ended up spending the 562 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 3: most money out of anybody to settle these claims. 563 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 2: And the. 564 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 3: Whole experience just tore the town apart because there were 565 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 3: people who wanted to get to the truth and wanted, 566 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 3: you know, retribution, and apparently the business community really wanted 567 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: to kind of sweep it under the rug for a 568 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 3: lot of different reasons. But I think a lot of 569 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 3: the boosters were like, this is a black eye on 570 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 3: the city. I saw it described as and the Kansas 571 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 3: City Star and the Kansas City Times said no, no, no, 572 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: we're going to report on this. Even in the face 573 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 3: of community pushback, I guess, and they won pulisers for 574 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 3: their reporting for local reporting because they got to the 575 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 3: bottom of what actually happened. 576 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a guy, like you said, there was 577 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: a news crew on the scene anyway for the tea dance, 578 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: and this cameraman was filming a lot of the aftermath, 579 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: and he had people there that were victims that were 580 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: coming up trying to like rip his camera away and 581 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: start a fight with the guy, saying he shouldn't be 582 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: shooting that stuff. But people came to his defense in 583 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: the moment. What I don't get is how I mean, 584 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: I know Hallmark ultimately will pay because they were the 585 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 1: parent company, But how did someone say they were more 586 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: culpable than when it's really obvious that it was a 587 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: design change that was rubber stamped by this design firm, Like, 588 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: what did Hallmark? It's not like they ran that up 589 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: the greeting card chain and they said, yeah, let's do that. 590 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 3: This is the impression I have that the whole thing 591 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 3: was fast and loose and cutting corners was in part 592 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 3: because Hallmark or the subsidiary Hallmark owned the hotel, was 593 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 3: cheaping out and one of the one piece of evidence 594 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: I saw that kind of puts that together was from Gillham, 595 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 3: who one of his defenses was I asked for on 596 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 3: site in spaces, at the metal fabricators, at the job site, everywhere, 597 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 3: and Hallmark wouldn't shell out the extra money to make 598 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 3: that happen. Had there been an inspector on site, then 599 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 3: this would have never happened kind of thing. So I 600 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 3: think one of the reasons why the business community wanted 601 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 3: to sweep it on the rug is Hallmark is the 602 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 3: It was, at least at the time, the far and 603 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 3: away the largest employer in Kansas City, very much beloved. 604 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 3: A lot of people owed their livelihood to Hallmark, Their 605 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 3: kids went to college because of Hallmark. It was a 606 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 3: really well regarded company. And apparently that that was that 607 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 3: facade or whatever, that image was attacked by the Times 608 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 3: in the Star. And that was one reason why some 609 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 3: people were so against that reporting, because even if you 610 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 3: didn't have anything to hide, but you still had an 611 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 3: affinity for Hallmark because they were your employer, you might 612 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 3: be upset at the news for reporting that kind of thing. 613 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: Even sure, a lot of the many millions of dollars 614 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: were ear Mark for charities that Hallmark donated to as 615 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: part of. 616 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 4: These plea deals. 617 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: Hyatt actually sued for four million dollars, but not Hallmark. 618 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: They sued the design firm. They sued twelve different parties, 619 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: including the design firm, the GC, the steel manufacturer that 620 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: I could not find out what happened with those lawsuits, 621 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: which was really frustrating. 622 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 4: But there were lawsuits all over the place. 623 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a mess. And as you would expect, 624 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 3: and like I said to this, the shadow hung over 625 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 3: the entire city for a decade. Apparently it came in 626 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 3: a really terrible time because the city had just gone 627 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 3: through a burst of prosperity, I think, and this hotel 628 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 3: was kind of a symbol of that, and so it 629 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 3: kind of really shook the foundations of this kind of 630 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 3: exuberant Kansas City. Like you know how like when you're 631 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 3: the more excited you are, the more happy you are, 632 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 3: the harder you fall when something comes along and just 633 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 3: completely undermines that. I get the impression that that was 634 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 3: kind of what up into Kansas City. It took a 635 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 3: long time for it to recover. It wasn't until two 636 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 3: thousand and eight that they even managed to erect a 637 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 3: memorial because Apparently there's so many people who didn't want 638 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 3: to think about it or talk about it or memorialize it. 639 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 3: But somebody, some of the survivor's family or some of 640 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 3: the victims' families got together and created a memorial at 641 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 3: a park just a block or so away, and Hallmark 642 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 3: kicked in twenty five thousand dollars. 643 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 4: That's right to build the memorial itself. 644 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: It is still there, the higher regency is and those 645 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: that atream is still there, and the walkway on the 646 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: second floor is still there. Of course, it's not held 647 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: up by it's not suspended. It is held from underneath 648 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: by columns and obvious And you know, I mentioned the 649 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: PTSD for first responders. That was a big push after this, 650 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 1: and then also just you know, a general tightening up 651 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: of and this wasn't just in Kansas City, this was 652 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: an international incident. So it really shook up the industry 653 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: as far as how fast and loose things were going overall. 654 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know the asse. The American Society of Civil 655 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 3: Engineers came out and said, unambiguously, if you're the engineer 656 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 3: of record, you have to verify every single change or 657 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 3: you are completely responsible for anything that happens as a 658 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 3: result of that. It's on you, like, just want to 659 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 3: make sure we're clear about that. And that was that 660 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 3: was a change that came directly from that and from 661 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 3: Gillham himself. 662 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 4: Well, the buck has to stop with somebody. 663 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: It was a situation where everybody was finger pointing and 664 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 1: when when you can point to a single decision that 665 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: that caused this and not like well it was sort 666 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: of this and this and this right like that these 667 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: things had had they not even had that tea dance, 668 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: eventually they would have collapsed. 669 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 4: They just weren't built correctly. 670 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, it's nuts. 671 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 3: I saw that even the original design wouldn't have met 672 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 3: code for holding up people, wouldn't have reached those killing 673 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 3: newtons that it needed. 674 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: You got anything else, No, I got nothing else. Big 675 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: shout out to the people of Kansas City. I hope 676 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: to do a show there one day. We did go 677 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: to Lawrence, Kansas and Saint Louis in the general area, 678 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: but we have not hit Kansas City yet. 679 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:23,279 Speaker 4: So we'll do that one day. 680 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 3: Yes, one day we will for sure. And since Chuck 681 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 3: just promised Kansas City we're going to come to a show. 682 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 3: Of course, he unlocked listener mail. 683 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 4: I'm gonna call this just something a little lighter. 684 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: I think we could use it, yeah, because we inadvertently well, 685 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: I'll just read it. Hey, guys, been listening to the 686 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: show for about six years. My first time writing in 687 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: to highlight an ongoing mistake that is nonetheless hilarious and 688 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: I assume completely unintentional. During the twenty two Halloween episode, 689 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: Josh voice one of the great characters in English literature, 690 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: Megal in the toll House. But in subsequent episodes, when 691 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: you guys, namely Chuck, tries to get Josh to do 692 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: the voice, he refers to him as Smiegel. Spiegel, of course, 693 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: is the hobbit from the Lord of the Rings who's 694 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: corrupted by the One Ring and eventually transformed into Gollum. 695 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: After hearing this, I went back and red listened to 696 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty two Halloween episode again, and I can 697 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: sure I can assure you that the toll House is 698 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: even better second time around. First, and now I can 699 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: just imagine a mixture of Josh and Andy serkis narrating 700 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: the dialogue of Smiegele Gollum as the Meagle character in question. 701 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: I almost didn't want to write in because of this 702 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: to make you aware of. 703 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 4: This hilarious error. 704 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: Though I assume someone will eventually beat me to it, 705 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: but not true. Josh Bills Borrow, you were the first 706 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 1: to write in. We did get a couple of people 707 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: that wrote in after you though that Yeah, he were first, 708 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: Ease and Josh is from Madison, Connecticut. 709 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 2: Way to go, Josh, thanks for that. 710 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 3: Thanks to everybody who wrote in to say the same thing, 711 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 3: because it is pretty hilarious. 712 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 2: Maybe that's why I'm if I Migle's been off. 713 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 3: I've been accidentally doing sgle proughly. So well, we'll get 714 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 3: to the bottom of that, everybody. I promise Megel will 715 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,399 Speaker 3: be back someday. 716 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 2: Someday. 717 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 3: Uh And if you want to get in touch of this, 718 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 3: like Josh at all did, you can send us an 719 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 3: email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 720 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: You Know, Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. 721 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 722 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.