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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff. Mom

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Speaker 1: never told you. Our guest co host today are Lisa

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Speaker 1: and Jill of the podcast You Turns. That's why, Oh

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Speaker 1: You Turns. Thank you both so much for joining us,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's so exciting. Thanks Annie, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very excited. Could you tell us a bit about yourselves

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Speaker 1: and your show? Sure, this is Jill talking. You'll get

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Speaker 1: the difference between our voices as the podcast goes on.

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Speaker 1: So I am a content creator and a podcaster, as

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Speaker 1: we've said, um, and a good friend of Lisa's ever

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Speaker 1: since we met working on the OZ magazine Dr Oz

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Speaker 1: The Good Life, which was a partnership between hers and

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Speaker 1: Lisa's other half, dr Amadaz, and Lisa was the editor

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Speaker 1: at large and I was the editor in chief and

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Speaker 1: we were kind of partners in crime. And then the

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Speaker 1: magazine industry went through its troubles and essentially that that

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Speaker 1: monthly magazine got turned into a magazine. I left the project,

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Speaker 1: but Lisa and I stayed friends and we started this. Um,

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Speaker 1: we started this podcast together. So I've been going through

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Speaker 1: lots of kind of career focused twisty You Turns and

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Speaker 1: then thrown into the mix of it. This fall was

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Speaker 1: what I call um early onset empty nesthood because I

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Speaker 1: took my older daughter up to college with my husband, Robert,

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Speaker 1: and we dropped her off and then boom, my younger

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Speaker 1: daughter decided that she wanted to do a one semester

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Speaker 1: um boarding program, so we dropped her off too, and

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Speaker 1: came home to the emptiest, most early clean house I've

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Speaker 1: seen in eighteen years. UM and Lisa's spend a great

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Speaker 1: friend and sisterly handholder were that whole process. Well, it

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Speaker 1: was just sort of this is Lisa's speaking. Um. It

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Speaker 1: was sort of perfect because we found ourselves both in

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Speaker 1: periods of transition at the same time. So I was

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Speaker 1: going through being an empty nester um right before Joe was,

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Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what the next iteration of

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Speaker 1: of my career life would be. And so we started

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Speaker 1: speaking about how to navigate this period in the most

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Speaker 1: productive way, and neither of us really knew, and so

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Speaker 1: we thought we could if we started a podcast, we

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Speaker 1: could ask people who actually could give us advice on

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Speaker 1: how to to navigate those life changes in a way

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Speaker 1: that was that was positive. And UM looked for opportunities

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Speaker 1: and rather than sort of being resentful of life changes

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Speaker 1: that were thrust upon us, um so, and we got

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to work together. So it came together just

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Speaker 1: sort of perfectly that we got to spend time together

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Speaker 1: and got to explore our own personal evolution together. And

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Speaker 1: both of you have brought up this empty nest syndrome

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Speaker 1: or whatever, the empty nest thing that you experienced, and

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Speaker 1: that is relevant to the topic that we're discussing today

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Speaker 1: because you both pitched the idea of an episode around

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Speaker 1: motherhood and particularly the identity aspects of motherhood, and we

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Speaker 1: touch on this topic in a recent episode called Mother Destroyer,

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Speaker 1: And like I said in that episode, I am not

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Speaker 1: a mother, and I just want to say before we

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Speaker 1: dive into this conversation that for that motherhood encompasses so

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Speaker 1: much more than how it's traditionally been portrayed and talked about.

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Speaker 1: And also for some people that want children, that want

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Speaker 1: to be a mother and forever whatever reason, can't these

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Speaker 1: episodes are difficult, and we see you and we definitely

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Speaker 1: need to do a whole episode or probably multiple episodes

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Speaker 1: around at and there's so many different kinds of mother figures.

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Speaker 1: You know, we all have our you know our natural

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Speaker 1: birth mothers, and then we have a sort of a

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Speaker 1: collection of other kinds of mothers in our lives. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean I my mother's best friend was

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Speaker 1: a kind of mother to me growing up, and they're

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Speaker 1: just altern of mothers in in many many forms, UM.

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Speaker 1: And I think I think your identity gets shaped whether

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Speaker 1: that child is your you know, adopted child, or your

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Speaker 1: birth child, or your you know, or a child that

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Speaker 1: just means a tremendous amount to you. And I think

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Speaker 1: the energy around motherhood is not limited to people who

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Speaker 1: have given birth. I think any time that you create something, um,

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Speaker 1: so that you're giving birth to an idea or to

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Speaker 1: an art project. Any time that you nurture and care

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Speaker 1: for something, whether it's a pet or another human being,

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Speaker 1: you are you are embodying the archetypal mother energy. So

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Speaker 1: I think it's applicable to anybody listen and guys too, frankly,

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Speaker 1: UM who would be listening to this podcast. I think

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Speaker 1: there there is relevance around the archetypal mother image and

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Speaker 1: energy and and all of us. And I think something

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Speaker 1: that I heard a lot from after we did this

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Speaker 1: episode on motherhood, UM, is this identity crisis that women

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Speaker 1: reported experiencing after becoming a mother, and according to the Internet,

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Speaker 1: there are loads of folks that have experienced and or

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Speaker 1: are experiencing this very same thing. UM. One thing that

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Speaker 1: came up when we were talking about how we want

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Speaker 1: to approach this topic UM is identity in general, and

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Speaker 1: not just when it comes to motherhood. But how for women,

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Speaker 1: their identity so often is defined through other people, as

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Speaker 1: a function of others, and because of that, how often

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Speaker 1: it shifts. Women are often defined through their relationship to

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Speaker 1: usually male p rs someone's daughter, someone's girlfriend, and his wife.

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Speaker 1: And this trend is obvious in the way that we

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Speaker 1: speak um and the way that we we right. I

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Speaker 1: remember when I'm pretty sure it was Taylor Swift, Um,

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Speaker 1: someone a famous woman nonetheless was described as so and

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Speaker 1: so less famous person's girlfriend, and she made a statement

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Speaker 1: about how she found that writing problematic. It happens all

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Speaker 1: the time. And would the both of you like to

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Speaker 1: speak about that? Not necessarily Taylor Swift, but you can

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Speaker 1: if you want. But this whole idea around women and identity,

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Speaker 1: I actually have a famous husband or uh and and

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Speaker 1: my identity is a hundred percent gloamed onto his I

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Speaker 1: almost don't have a name, you know, in some respects,

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Speaker 1: which is okay in some days, some days, and some

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Speaker 1: days not okay at all. But I do think that

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Speaker 1: we more dangerous than having other people define us by

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Speaker 1: our relationships. I think we and to define ourselves by

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Speaker 1: our relationships to a certain extent, so we see ourselves

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Speaker 1: as someone's mother, or someone's wife, or someone's daughter. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And that's where I think it can be dangerous, where

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Speaker 1: we don't have the self determination I think that we

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Speaker 1: really need. Um. I don't know how we break out

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Speaker 1: of that. I think it's been cultural for so many

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Speaker 1: centuries that I think we have to actively fight against it.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's has to be something that's conscious.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we'll be able to do it without

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Speaker 1: paying attention to it. And and it's something that we

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Speaker 1: have to raise the next generation of women to think differently.

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Speaker 1: You know, every generation has got to make progress on

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Speaker 1: this problem. Because I think you're completely right. It's a

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Speaker 1: slot that we put ourselves in, but it's a slot

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Speaker 1: that society puts us in, you know, And it's just

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Speaker 1: unbelievably important that our daughters, you know, take a step

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Speaker 1: forward on this. Absolutely and questions around identity like this

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Speaker 1: are a huge part of motherhood and becoming a mother

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Speaker 1: and these phases of motherhood, it's a monumental shift. So

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Speaker 1: we thought that in this conversation we would look at

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Speaker 1: the phases of motherhood and talk about these shifts. And

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Speaker 1: I suppose the first is pregnancy. And to be clear, again,

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Speaker 1: not all mothers go through this stage, but it is

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Speaker 1: a part of the process for many. And you could

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Speaker 1: also think of it in terms of changing family dynamics.

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Speaker 1: Having a baby is an active creation. Pregnancy is more

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Speaker 1: than creating any human it's also creating a new family.

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Speaker 1: A baby is the catalyst that will open new possibilities

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Speaker 1: for more intimate connections as well as new stresses and

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Speaker 1: a woman's closest relationships with their partners, siblings, and friends.

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Speaker 1: How would the votes of you say that your identity

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Speaker 1: shifted when you became pregnant? Well, I found that with

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Speaker 1: you know you can't. I can only speak for myself,

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Speaker 1: and I know that there are people are very close

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Speaker 1: to who felt like pregnancy was the most blessed said

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Speaker 1: time of their lives, and they were so happy and

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Speaker 1: they just they loved the idea of some another person

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Speaker 1: growing inside of them and they could eat anything they wanted.

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Speaker 1: I really did not like being pregnant at all, and

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Speaker 1: part of it was because it is an identity shift

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Speaker 1: on every level. Because on the physical level, I'd always

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Speaker 1: much of who I was pre pregnancies was flirtatious. I

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Speaker 1: had a sexuality that enjoyed flirtation with people, and suddenly

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Speaker 1: that was out the window. So there was this physical transformation.

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Speaker 1: Um so my identity was that of blob, not a

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Speaker 1: not a flirtatious young girl anymore. And then there was

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Speaker 1: an emotional transformation because now you don't have the freedom

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Speaker 1: that you had post pregnancy. You have to be more responsible.

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Speaker 1: You can't go out and get drunk just because you

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Speaker 1: feel like it. So emotionally you have a level of

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Speaker 1: responsibility that you've never had before. And then spiritual you

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Speaker 1: suddenly have this purpose and meaning to your life. Even

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Speaker 1: if you don't do anything, don't even get out of

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Speaker 1: bed in the morning, there's some level of of doing

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Speaker 1: something worthwhile in the universe, and so everything, everything is

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Speaker 1: turned upside down. At least I felt like when I

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Speaker 1: got pregnant, Jill, what about you? You know, I can't

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Speaker 1: say everything felt different I was so fascinated by the

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Speaker 1: Petri dish that was my body, by this crazy experiment

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Speaker 1: that my body seemed to have become. UM, so it

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Speaker 1: for me. It was really just interesting to get granular

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Speaker 1: with the physical changes. I was at work, and I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty much ignoring my pregnancy for much of

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Speaker 1: the time that I was at work. UM, I didn't

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Speaker 1: think about it. I remember being on the phone with

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Speaker 1: I was the executive editor at Glamour at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I remember being on the phone with a writer

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Speaker 1: at the very end of my pregnancy. He was actually

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Speaker 1: driving me absolutely nuts, and I finally, I think, I

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Speaker 1: said to him, in frustration, you know what, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to pick this phone call up at home. I'm eight

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Speaker 1: months pregnant and I got to get out of this office.

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Speaker 1: And I remember he yelled at me and said, what

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Speaker 1: do you mean your eight months pregnant? How could you

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Speaker 1: not have told me because we had a phone relationship.

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Speaker 1: This guy lived in Boston, and I just remember thinking,

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Speaker 1: what difference does it make? Why should it change anything.

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Speaker 1: He was furious with me, and you know, I do

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Speaker 1: remember thinking nothing has happened yet. My body is just

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Speaker 1: doing this extraordinary independent thing. And I'm continuing to work

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Speaker 1: and you know, it hasn't happened yet, this baby hasn't

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Speaker 1: happened yet. Um, but people the world, and it's not

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Speaker 1: just people touching your belly, which I know women freak

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Speaker 1: out about, but I never did freak out about it. Again,

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Speaker 1: I felt like a giant science experiment, so I had

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Speaker 1: no reason to be offended when people kind of wanted

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Speaker 1: to poke the experiment. But the world does start to

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Speaker 1: see you differently, and you see it in people's faces,

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Speaker 1: and you see it and how they behave towards you.

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Speaker 1: They see you as this somewhat delicate thing, even though

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Speaker 1: what you're doing is extraordinarily powerful. I think they also

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Speaker 1: on some level are a little intimidated by this powerful

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Speaker 1: thing that you're doing. Um. So, you know, in terms

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Speaker 1: of an identity shift, I don't think I felt anything

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Speaker 1: but physical shifts, which I was fascinated by. But the

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Speaker 1: world was definitely starting to look at me differently, and

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Speaker 1: I sensed that I like the description of your body

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Speaker 1: as a giant science experiment. That's fun. Well, that is

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Speaker 1: what it felt like, I will tell you, and I'm

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Speaker 1: with Lisa. I mean, I did not particularly enjoy pregnancy

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Speaker 1: after my second daughter was born, I remember within five minutes,

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Speaker 1: I looked at my husband and said, I am so

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Speaker 1: freaking excited to be done. I am never going to

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Speaker 1: have to do this again. And you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: the doneness the joy of having her was primary right

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Speaker 1: behind it was the joy that I was never going

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Speaker 1: to have to be pregnant again. Well, if we move

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Speaker 1: out of this pregnancy phase and this pregnancy identity and

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Speaker 1: we look at post pregnancy and sort of that immediate

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Speaker 1: aftermath um and going back to that identity crisis, I

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Speaker 1: was describing that a lot of listeners wrote in about

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Speaker 1: when they became a mother of not feeling like they

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Speaker 1: are a mother even though when they want, a nurse

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Speaker 1: or doctor hands a baby, their baby to them um

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Speaker 1: and she seems to be called her name and is

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Speaker 1: instead called mom um. And some people described it as

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Speaker 1: birthing two people, the baby and your new mom identity.

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Speaker 1: And one thing that both of you sort of, I

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Speaker 1: guess alluded to, is this mom body or a mom

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Speaker 1: uniform um. And I saw a lot of people describe

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Speaker 1: this feeling like their body didn't feel like it was

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Speaker 1: their own. They were having to wear looser clothes, and

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Speaker 1: they might want feeling a pressure to throw away what

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Speaker 1: one author called me boots. So you're losing this identity

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Speaker 1: as a sexual woman. People out there, don't throw them away,

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Speaker 1: put them on a high, invited the episode you might

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Speaker 1: need them again. Well, it's crazily ironic because you get

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Speaker 1: to this spot physically precisely because you were wearing blues right,

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Speaker 1: So at some yeah, the sex kind of makes you unsexy,

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Speaker 1: which is really unfair. But yeah, there's so many things

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Speaker 1: that go on in the early early days after giving birth.

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Speaker 1: You don't recognize yourself physically, and and you know, you

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Speaker 1: have that that sea of churning hormones that you don't

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Speaker 1: recognize either, and so you're a mix of madly in

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Speaker 1: love with this little creature next to you because of

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Speaker 1: all the oxytocin, and then incredibly depressed because you don't

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Speaker 1: know what the hell you're doing and no one's really

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Speaker 1: told you and you're kind of playing it by ear,

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Speaker 1: so you're full of doubt and UM and so I.

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Speaker 1: And then you look at yourself in the mirror and

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Speaker 1: then you're depressed on top of not knowing what the

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Speaker 1: hell you're doing. And then of course you the oxytocin

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Speaker 1: comes back and you're blissfully happy. So you it's like

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Speaker 1: this crazy schizophrenic phase. I think um all the time

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Speaker 1: because you're back and forth and back and forth. It's

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Speaker 1: it's absolutely wild. And you go from you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are certain things that are kind of extraordinary. Breastfeeding

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Speaker 1: is an extraordinary if it goes well at all for you.

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Speaker 1: The fact that you can feed this little thing everything

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Speaker 1: it needs automatically. You are literally a food machine that

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Speaker 1: automatically produces exactly what is needed at exactly the time

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Speaker 1: it's needed. But I think a lot of women have

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Speaker 1: issues and then feels like they are a failure because

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Speaker 1: they produce milk and somehow it's they can't will it

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Speaker 1: into productions, so they hate their bodies. Oh it's but

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, you you go from maybe you

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Speaker 1: have a successful breastfeeding session and you feel like, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is the most important thing I have ever done.

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Speaker 1: I've fed my baby to you know, not being able

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Speaker 1: to diaper them and just feeling like such a total failure.

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Speaker 1: It's like this role that you're both you know, prepared for.

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Speaker 1: Evolution is prepared you for in some ways, but in

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Speaker 1: other ways you're just you're ridiculously behind the curve. And

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Speaker 1: I think, particularly now you know, women have tremendous competency

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Speaker 1: in the world, there's very there are very few roles

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Speaker 1: you get you get dropped into that you haven't had

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Speaker 1: some sort of preparation for except this one. And it's

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Speaker 1: not something at least now, I think, especially with a

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Speaker 1: lot of magazine articles and their support groups, people are

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Speaker 1: actually talking about it. But when you and I were

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Speaker 1: having our kids, it wasn't one of those things you

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Speaker 1: could just pick up the phone to say, I'm failing

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Speaker 1: miserably as a mom today postpartum. You know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: at least at least that's getting some discussion now. We

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Speaker 1: had a guest on You Turns recently who actually started

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Speaker 1: uh an app and a whole social network because she

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Speaker 1: was suffering from postpartum depression and she felt so unbelievably

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Speaker 1: alone and it took her quite a long time to

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Speaker 1: find anyone who would exchange with her honestly about struggling

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Speaker 1: around motherhood. And you know, I you know, she said

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Speaker 1: interestingly on our podcast. She was on you know, Instagram

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Speaker 1: scrolling around and there was one, you know, beatific picture

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Speaker 1: after another and here she was with bleeding nipples and

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Speaker 1: a wicked case of postpartum and you know, a belly

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Speaker 1: that was hanging over the top of her jeans by

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Speaker 1: four inches, thinking like, nothing about this picture is beautiful, Um,

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Speaker 1: and she it just made her isolation that much worse. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're going to come back to the whole social media

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Speaker 1: aspect of this, but I think this does echo some

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Speaker 1: things that we talked about in our Mother Destroyer episode

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Speaker 1: of the bifurcation of women into the Madonna or the

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Speaker 1: horror um and mothers into the perfect ideal mom or

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Speaker 1: the terrible mom. We don't really see or hear much

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Speaker 1: outside those experiences, although this is starting to change. And

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Speaker 1: something else that the two of you brought up when

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Speaker 1: we were discussing what we wanted to include in this podcast,

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Speaker 1: UM was not being able to return to work as

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Speaker 1: early as you'd like, or having to take on UM

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Speaker 1: a different work identity. Maybe not always, but could you

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Speaker 1: speak to that? UM? Well, I kind of bet. And

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Speaker 1: I'm going to shout out to my friend Laurence Smith

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Speaker 1: Brodie who wrote this amazing book called The Fifth Trimester

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Speaker 1: that's really all about you know what what she calls

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Speaker 1: the birth of a working mom, like it's a There

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Speaker 1: are all these transitions that you go through, and one

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Speaker 1: that doesn't get much attention is that return to work.

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Speaker 1: So maybe you've gotten your if you're lucky, you've gotten

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Speaker 1: your three months leave, and then bam, your back at work. Um,

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Speaker 1: and it's you know, they're I think they're amazing. There

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Speaker 1: are things to be grateful for. I used to exchange

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Speaker 1: with my with my boss when I had really little kids.

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Speaker 1: On Mondays, we would look at each other and say,

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Speaker 1: t G I am you know, because it's there was

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Speaker 1: a sense that at least we had returned to this

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Speaker 1: closed environment where we had some modicum of control where

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Speaker 1: we could ask for things and they would get done,

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Speaker 1: where people would ask things of us and we could

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Speaker 1: get them done within some kind of a time frame

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Speaker 1: that felt reasonable. It just was a sphere that was

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Speaker 1: run by adults, and there was you felt like you

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Speaker 1: had a modicum of control, and then you would get

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Speaker 1: home and all bets, we're off. I mean, you're totally

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Speaker 1: at the at the mercy of your kid. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you know, working motherhood is an identity

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Speaker 1: that it's yet one more identity that has to be

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Speaker 1: thrashed out, and you often have to negotiate it with

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Speaker 1: a boss and and um. Colleagues are all on the

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Speaker 1: spectrum from incredibly supportive and understanding too openly hostile, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I get it now, you're gonna leave every day at

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Speaker 1: at five thirty, and I'm supposed to pick up the slack,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean that's I got that. I saw

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Speaker 1: it dished out, UM, And I also understood it. I

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Speaker 1: really empathized with people because I had picked up the

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Speaker 1: slack and it sort of sucks, but you know, we

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Speaker 1: do have to propagate the species here. I wonder. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if it's you ever can make a choice that

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Speaker 1: you're not conflicted about when it comes to working and motherhood,

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Speaker 1: because either you're staying at home and you're feeling like

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Speaker 1: you're not doing what you could be doing you're living

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Speaker 1: up to your potential. And also there are many days

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Speaker 1: when your brain feels like it's turning into jello because

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Speaker 1: you're your intellectual stimulation consists of reading the alphabet books, um,

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Speaker 1: or you're at work and you're feeling like, oh, my

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Speaker 1: kid had a fever today and I had to drop

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Speaker 1: them off with the babysitter and I'm not being a

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Speaker 1: good mom and not being supportive, and it sounds like

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Speaker 1: I'm complaining about every like everything is negative, But it's

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Speaker 1: the joy always comes with a little bit of self

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Speaker 1: doubt and questioning when you're making decisions as a mom,

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Speaker 1: because there doesn't seem to be one decision that is right,

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Speaker 1: even for you. I honestly think that as we talk

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Speaker 1: about the stages of motherhood, what you are trading when

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Speaker 1: you become a mom, and this goes for taking on

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Speaker 1: the responsibility of being a step mom or playing a

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Speaker 1: really really strong and nurturing role in any child's life.

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Speaker 1: You are giving up, um, a certain amount of control.

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Speaker 1: I guess I keep coming back to that word you are.

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Speaker 1: You are taking on conflict and you are giving up control.

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Speaker 1: You're saying, it's I'm going to be okay with placing

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Speaker 1: my heart and my efforts and my love onto something

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Speaker 1: that is it's is its own independent little creature, and

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm going to pour my heart into this

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Speaker 1: and I have no idea how it's going to go. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and no, and now I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to be able to go to work and feel unconflicted

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Speaker 1: and I'm not going to be able to stay home

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Speaker 1: and feel unconflicted. It's basically just accepting an enormous amount

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Speaker 1: of ambiguity and static kind of in your life and

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Speaker 1: you just say, Okay, UM, bring it on. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to go back for a minute to UM, just to

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Speaker 1: bring back another past episode we've done about pregnancy discrimination

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Speaker 1: and UM, we've done one on the mommy taxs and

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Speaker 1: this kind of tight rope that you were both discussing

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Speaker 1: of feeling like a bad mom if you're not spending

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Speaker 1: enough time at home with your child and being judged

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Speaker 1: societally for that, but on the other hand, being seen

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Speaker 1: as a bad employee if you take off the time

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Speaker 1: to go and spend it with your child. And UM,

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Speaker 1: it's been really interesting hearing from people in different countries

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Speaker 1: where the attitude towards taking time off as a new

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Speaker 1: mother is different. But again, this is Yeah, it's this

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Speaker 1: conflict that I think a lot of mothers feel. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have not worked this thing out in the US certainly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Sweden's another story. I would be interested to know,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, is that generally what you're finding is

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Speaker 1: that in other countries, UM, people are able to. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they get ample, ample time off in many other countries,

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Speaker 1: not all, but many other countries. Um. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: certainly like way down there in the in the Western world,

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Speaker 1: um for for amount of maternity leave, that's that's typical.

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Speaker 1: Um But and it seems like people just understand that

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Speaker 1: you In other places, there's way more understanding that you're

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Speaker 1: going to need time to adjust. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: part of it. Is just like slamming one one identity

404
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Speaker 1: up against the other, the mother versus the working person,

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Speaker 1: the you know, sexual person versus the maternal person. We're

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Speaker 1: just a bag of conflicts. The only thing that I

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Speaker 1: would say that makes it even more complicated is that

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Speaker 1: your responsibility to mother this child that you've brought into

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Speaker 1: the world doesn't end at three or six months. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, you feel like societally, if we had more,

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Speaker 1: even a year more maternity leave, it would somehow be resolved,

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Speaker 1: which it clearly wouldn't because toddlers need even more attention

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Speaker 1: than infants need, and teenagers sometimes need even more than that.

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Speaker 1: So you know, you can't take fifteen years off of

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Speaker 1: work unless you're not working with you I mean, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I heard from a couple of

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Speaker 1: different women who were real influences on me when my

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Speaker 1: kids were tiny. Is you know, if I had had

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Speaker 1: this to do again, I would have taken off time

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Speaker 1: much much later. I would have gone straight back to work,

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Speaker 1: because when they're really little, lots of different people can

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Speaker 1: meet their basic needs and you're still mom at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day. But it gets way more complicated

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Speaker 1: when they're in middle school, when they're in high school,

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Speaker 1: there are things that you will feel. Man, I wish

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Speaker 1: I was home to help with that, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean this just helping my daughter go through the ridiculous

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Speaker 1: college application process. Thank god I got hip checked out

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Speaker 1: of my job in time to help her with that,

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Speaker 1: because that that felt like a job, not a full

431
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: time job, but heavy duty job. It's just, you know,

432
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: it's the conditions of motherhood are as Lisa you're saying,

433
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: they change constantly. It's a job description that changes every

434
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: few months, like you're never going to keep up with it.

435
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: You're never going to feel like you're soup. You that

436
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: I got this feeling, you're never going to have that

437
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: as a mom. And it also trumps anything you had

438
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: at work, so even if you identify as with your

439
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: career and you are CEO of your company, if your

440
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: kid has an accident at school, you're leaving me out

441
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: of any meeting. It doesn't matter you your kid is

442
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: your Maybe not for everyone, I would hazard of women,

443
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: that's totally true, right, I mean I used to say

444
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: that I felt like my entire career was balanced on

445
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: the head of a pin and that was my kid's

446
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: well being and which I kind of was constantly looking

447
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: at and thinking, something's coming up. Is this the moment

448
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: where I make the choice where I say, like, no,

449
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm putting it on, putting my job on hold, walking

450
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: away from this for a while. It didn't really happen,

451
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: but I did feel that precarious balance all the time.

452
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: It is so funny say that because lately I've been

453
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: watching a lot of holiday movies, and if I was

454
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: to judge from them, then the stuff holiday movies are

455
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: made from. Like of them is a dad who's in

456
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: a very powerful position, who hasn't been home for Christmas

457
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: Eve at Christmas and years, and then through some Christmas miracle,

458
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: realizes the importance of family and leaves in the middle

459
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: of a big meeting to go be with this child. Yeah,

460
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,959
Speaker 1: Hollywood as usual. We'll catch up to us in about

461
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what twenty years. How how old are

462
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: these movies you're watching? Um? Well, I I'm kind of

463
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: embarrassed to admit this, but I watched Jingle All the Way,

464
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: which I learned UM has a really funny legal history

465
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 1: behind it, um, involving a stolen script and ELF. So

466
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: Elf is pretty I guess it's like ten years old.

467
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: I suppose I love me some alf. I gotta tell you,

468
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: Santa Claus is the same plot. I'm telling you. Yeah,

469
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: busy busy daddy. Yeah, yeah, you know. The problem is,

470
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: if it was the mom, it could be any day

471
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: of the year. If it's the dad, it's only on Christmas. Right.

472
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody has been watching Big Little

473
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: Lies or has watched that series, but that was just

474
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: such an interesting kind of study in career women contrasted

475
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: with women who are staying home or are doing some

476
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: kind of half and half version. But you know, Laura

477
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: Dern plays the very high powered career woman and she's

478
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: just a bitch on wheels. And I remember, you know,

479
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: watching the first episode and thinking, oh, are you kidding? Wait?

480
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: Why can't we be nice and powerful? Why do we

481
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: have to be mean to be powerful? And you know,

482
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: Reese Withersmith is fantastic, but I just thought, come on,

483
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: this is meant to be a feminist, A meant this

484
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: series and it's I loved that that it was so

485
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: woman power at that show, But at the same time,

486
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: I felt like it's slung around a few cliches that

487
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: I could have could have done without. Yeah, I've seen

488
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: that over and over again, where women can only be

489
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: a R B, we cannot be both. But hopefully we're

490
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: moving away from that, um and and sort of moving

491
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: along and skipping. I would say it sounds like listening

492
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: to you both, that we could have a phase like

493
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: every couple of months of mother and shifts. UM. I

494
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: remember I used to edit this podcast called mother Ship

495
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: and UM. One of the co hosts described mother her

496
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: experience as being a mother as running through molasses. UM.

497
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: But if we jump ahead to adolescence, which both of

498
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: you sort of we're saying, perhaps is a time when

499
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: you wish you could have been been more involved, or

500
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: when there are these things that maybe we don't pay

501
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: as much attention to. When we're talking about identity and motherhood. Um,

502
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: could you speak about your experiences with this adolescence phase. Well,

503
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's a funny thing. I remember reflecting when um,

504
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: you know, my kids were going through I would say

505
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: the grutchiest part of their adolescence, which thank god they're

506
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: they're definitely through. You know, there's this point when your

507
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 1: kids are really little and they just they keep you

508
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: in the moment and they bring you up. I mean,

509
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: it's just it's kind of a fantastic and miraculous thing.

510
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: And anybody who has a child they're close to feels this.

511
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: They just as soon as you're with them, they it's

512
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: like a happy drug. I mean, it just it just

513
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: really is. Maybe not when they're having a complete meltdown

514
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: in a parking lot, but for the most part, the

515
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: mood is just so abrilliant with young kids, and and

516
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, the role sort of shifts. They get much

517
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: more independent obviously as adolescents, but your role, I think

518
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: is to bring them some kind of emotional stability because

519
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: their emotions are so whacked. Yeah. I don't know if

520
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: you found that, Lisa. Um, yes, yes, they got super moody. Um.

521
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: But in terms of my position, it was weird because

522
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: I always thought of myself as the cool kid. You know,

523
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: I was part of the cool crowd. And there's nothing

524
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: to smack you down to do t how uncool you

525
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: are than a teenage child who's like, you're really going

526
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: to wear that judgment? Um, And you see yourself differently too,

527
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: and there's a an attempt to cling to your youth,

528
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: um with your with your little fingertips as it slips

529
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,239
Speaker 1: away from you. And then realizing that somebody in this

530
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: relationship has to be the grown up, especially when your

531
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: children it's not and it's not their job, so it

532
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: is yours. Um. But you suddenly feel like even when

533
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: I felt anyway and I had my kids pretty young,

534
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 1: I could still feel youthful with young children. When my

535
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: children became teenagers, I saw myself through their eyes, and

536
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: I was suddenly old. You see themselves through their eyes

537
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: because they tell you what they see. Yeah, I mean,

538
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: you know, I'll never forget my cousin once saying to

539
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: my aunt when she came down in the morning we

540
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: were all staying somewhere for a vacation. He said, would

541
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: you do my sleep on your face? I mean, it's

542
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: just you know, and he was actually a nice kid,

543
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: and they're just they're just heartless. Yeah, and they see

544
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: you as like someone who doesn't know I know, clue,

545
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: like a, you're stupid because you have no idea that

546
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: they were drinking right, uh so and you couldn't figure

547
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: it out. Um you're stupid, you have bad taste. Um,

548
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: you don't understand anything. So and the hard part as

549
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: a parent is that, because it is your job to

550
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: be the parent, you can't ever take anything personally because

551
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: when it becomes personal, it becomes a fight. And then

552
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: you treat your child in a way that's all about

553
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: ego and not about being supportive, because they that when

554
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: they're the worst is when they need the most support.

555
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: So it's this really hard place of being beaten up

556
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: your ego, being beaten up by all their criticism, and

557
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: having to step outside of your ego so that you

558
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: can retain that maturity to be a supportive parent. It's weird, Yeah,

559
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: it really isn't being you know, you come through this

560
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: phase where you're trying to raise you know, responsible upstanding citizens,

561
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: maybe not rule followers, but basic rule followers, and so

562
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: a lot of it is about discipline, and a lot

563
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: of it is about setting some norms, and then they've

564
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: become adolescence and you find yourself moving those boundaries so

565
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: far because you can't fight with them all the time,

566
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: you know, And and it's exhausting and honestly demoralizing to

567
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: try and do that. You gotta let a lot go

568
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: and and just kind of hope that the grounding that

569
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: you gave them when they little will stick. And more

570
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: complicated than that, I found was that I had to

571
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 1: be consistent with my values in the choices I was making.

572
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 1: Because when they're little, you can tell them we don't

573
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: tell lies, and we you know, we don't hit other people.

574
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: And then suddenly when they're teenagers, they are not listening

575
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 1: to anywhere, but they're watching everything you do. So when

576
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: you when someone asks you a question you're like, oh,

577
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: we can't make it tonight because and you make up

578
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: some terrible lie like oh yes, because the cat's sick

579
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. They see your behavior and they

580
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: model that. So you have to really very careful about

581
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: walking your talk when your kids are adolescence while giving

582
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: them all kinds of room to sort of break some

583
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 1: rules and distance from you. Um yeah, I mean it's

584
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: it's it's very tough. And that's sort of that feeling

585
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: of closeness UM that I think many many people, many

586
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,280
Speaker 1: moms and mom figures have as as they're like smaller

587
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: kids are growing up, they have to distance from you.

588
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: They absolutely have to. You are not going to have

589
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: that feeling of closeness, and it can leave you feeling

590
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: intensely lonely. Um. If you don't have closeness with your

591
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: partner through that, good luck to you. I mean, you know,

592
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: if you're not partnered, I think it's even tougher. It's

593
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: just it's a lonely time at best. You need a

594
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: lot of and you know, honestly, that's where other women

595
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: I found to be just hugely, hugely helpful. Thanks Lisa,

596
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: Thanks Joe. Yeah. I mean that there are always these

597
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: others identities you write that people have at the same time,

598
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: and one of those is, um it could be single motherhood,

599
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: and one of them could be LGBTQ motherhood. UM. So

600
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: we always have these multiple identities within as that shape

601
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: our experiences. UM. One thing I wanted to touch on

602
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: before we moved on from adolescence is I remember both

603
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: of you talking about this pitfall of defining yourself through

604
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: your child's accomplishments. And I feel like this would start

605
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: manifesting pretty hardcore around adolescents. Um somewhere in there. Could

606
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: you talk about that a little bit. Yeah. I think

607
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: that it happens in two ways. What one is that

608
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 1: you see your own faults in your kids, like your

609
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: weaknesses and your tendencies in me. You know, it's like procrastination, um,

610
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: emotionally eating the things that I straw go with myself,

611
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: I can see pop up in my children, and you

612
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: just don't want them. Two, You don't want them to

613
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: struggle in the same way that you've struggled. And it

614
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: makes it worse because you draw attention to it with

615
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: your kids. And then I think a lot of people

616
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: feel like they if they didn't achieve the success that

617
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: they wanted or somehow see their children as manifestations of

618
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: their own work. Um. Yeah, and worth they put so

619
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: much pressure on these kids, and that's not fair either. Yeah.

620
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: I mean, having just gone through the arms race that

621
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 1: is the college admissions process, you know there every parent.

622
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: Let me just proface by saying every parent is doing

623
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: the best they can in a really tough situation. But wow,

624
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: are there some Um, some people who you think, this

625
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: is not about your kid, this is about you, UM,

626
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 1: And I guess I just I feel like how having

627
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: watch so many parents get deeply, deeply involved in this

628
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: process trying to raise these uber kids who will get

629
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: into the best colleges. Even if that, even if your

630
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: wish comes true and you know your child does you proud,

631
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: which you know you is the operative word there. Um,

632
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: that kid is then going to go off and live

633
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: that life on their own quite immediately, and it's not

634
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: your life and you you know. To me, I feel like,

635
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: particularly for women, this is yet another moment where you

636
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: think that defining ourselves by others, accomplishments by others, identity

637
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: by others, the direction that other people are taking in

638
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: our lives is you do this at your peril. And um,

639
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: society maybe molding us into those partner figures, those booster figures,

640
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 1: those maternal figures. Um, but you need to know what

641
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: this means to you separately, and you need your own stuff,

642
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,479
Speaker 1: you know, right, And because well, even if if they're

643
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: doing great, fine, you can bask in your own in

644
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: your kid's glory, but they're they're going to fail. Everybody

645
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: fails at some point and you do want to carry

646
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: that around us also, you know, it's it's just it's

647
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: not a smart way to go through life, getting your

648
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,359
Speaker 1: identity through your child's accomplishments. But I think a lot

649
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: of people do it um subconsciously, not really for themselves,

650
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: or they're not aware. There's an aspect that it is

651
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: for your sense of pride and and and being a

652
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: good parent because you've gotten your kid to go to

653
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 1: an Ivy League school or something. But there's also the

654
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: feeling that you don't want your kid to suffer and

655
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: they when they fail in some level, they don't get

656
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: into their college of choice um or they don't feel

657
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: like they're measuring up to their peers. It's hard and

658
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: it's painful as a mother, everything your childe every little

659
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: pain is almost you can feel it in your own

660
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: body almost. It's like a little right, you know, you

661
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: have that little I remember times when my kids have

662
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: been had frustrations and failures and it just and and

663
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: they're so sad and there's nothing you can do about it.

664
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: As a parent, it just rips you apart. Well. I

665
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: think that that's part of the um sucker punch of

666
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: going through motherhood. I mean, one of the one of

667
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: the wonderful things, uh, is that feeling you get when

668
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: you can fix it for them, when there's something concrete

669
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: that you can do to make them feel better. But ultimately,

670
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: as your relationship with them matures, the best thing you

671
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: can do is not fix it for them and just

672
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: let and and be there right and feel how you know,

673
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: feel the feels with them. And it will hurt you,

674
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: possibly even more than it hurts them. Um, But they

675
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: will become resilient. They'll become resilient and they'll they'll realize

676
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: and you'll realize that they don't need you to do

677
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: and that's ideally, if all goes well, you will be absolute,

678
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: which is a weird part of the learning of motherhood right,

679
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 1: it's planned obsolescence and it's kind of upsetting well, which

680
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: I think so many of us are addicted to the

681
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: helicopter parenting method. You know it fix everything immediately, never

682
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 1: let them struggle, um, which you won't always be there

683
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: even if you try. At some point you're not going

684
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: to be able to fix everything for your kids, so wait,

685
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: far better to let them learn how to fix it

686
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 1: for themselves. Yeah, yeah, I mean I can't tell you

687
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 1: how many parents I talked to a new who went

688
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: through the horrible period where their child couldn't sleep unless

689
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: they were sleeping in their bed. You know, one of

690
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: the most important skills you can teach a kid is

691
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: to go to sleep on their own, which sounds ridiculously basic,

692
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: but it literally it will serve them every day of

693
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: their life. It's it's just one of the basic things.

694
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: And yet so many parents, I think, Um, you know,

695
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 1: a kids are really tough. This is one of the

696
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: toughest things. I've never experienced exhaustion like I did when

697
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 1: my kids were little, never ever, ever, and never will

698
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: I again. But you know that falling into that trap

699
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: of just come in my bed and I'll cuddle you

700
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: and you'll go to sleep and we'll be fine. It's

701
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 1: easier than fighting with them, it is, but ultimately, ultimately

702
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: you only have one kid because you never have sex again,

703
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: exactly because your kids in your bed with problem solved, alright, well,

704
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: new goal become obsolete exactly. This all reminds me of

705
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: once when I was in high school, I won a

706
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: very prestigious award and I bring it up at every

707
00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: occasion that I can, but I had to give a speech, um,

708
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: and my dad before I went out, he kind of

709
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: kneeled in front of me. He said, Annie, here's what

710
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: just say that these teachers have been the architects of

711
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: my dreams. He goes into this very long and flowery

712
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: and beautiful speech, and then I get out there and

713
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: I just tell jokes the entire time, um, and I

714
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: imagine it as like the equivalent of just a very

715
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: heavy sigh. And then then he had to let go

716
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: and know that that was me being me and I

717
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna give this speech. As much as he wanted

718
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: me to give it, and as beautiful as it was,

719
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: it wasn't gonna happen. Well, I'm sure he was hugely

720
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: proud of you eventually, but during during this speech, he

721
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 1: was probably tied in a pretzel of conflict. You know.

722
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: And here's where I think Lisa was right at the beginning.

723
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: This is not we're not just talking about mothers here.

724
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: He was super proud, loved that you were this individual,

725
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: loved that you had gone off on your own and

726
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: gotten this prize, hated that you were not accepting it

727
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: in the way that he would, hated that you you know,

728
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: didn't take his advice that you were clearly an individual

729
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: and probably terrified that she might mess up because she

730
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: wasn't doing that speech that he had planned, and what

731
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 1: if she had failed in public and then he would

732
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: have been shamed. Yeah, absolutely, so much at play. Well,

733
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it was so interesting going through the

734
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: process with my daughter where I helped her. I'm an editor,

735
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: so I worked with her in her college essay. At

736
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 1: the same time, I also worked with lots of kids

737
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: from different institutions, UM and organizations on their college essays.

738
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 1: Is just like a volunteer part of my life. And

739
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 1: they were dream writer editor relationship partners. They loved my edits.

740
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 1: They were super happy to make my edits. They loved

741
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: our conversations. My daughter, oh my god, correcting a type

742
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: of I had to prove it to her that that

743
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: is not how the word was spelled. So, you know,

744
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's a unique, unique relationship. And

745
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: yet you know what, her essay came out awesome. It

746
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: wasn't the same way that your speech wasn't the one

747
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: your dad would have given. Her essay wasn't the one

748
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: I might have written, But it was awesome and it

749
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: did the job. And I remember working with with a

750
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: friend's um, with a friend's son. She took me aside

751
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 1: and said, here's what he should write about. Here's I

752
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: know what he should write about. He's not writing about this,

753
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: so can you just talk to him? She was back

754
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,439
Speaker 1: channeling with me. So I sit down with this kid

755
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: who I knew somewhat. We had a long, long, long conversation,

756
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: and her idea was was just balls out terrible for him.

757
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: And not only that he could barely remember, he could

758
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: barely recollect the event that she wanted him to write about.

759
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: So it was just it was there was nothing there.

760
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: There was nothing in the well. And and yet she

761
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: was so sure. His mother, who knows him better than whatever,

762
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, she was so sure. And honestly, some of

763
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 1: the worst essay ideas I've heard in the course of

764
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: doing this work have come from moms. Yeah, I don't

765
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: know what that says, but I'm taking it to heart. Well,

766
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: we have many more phases to discuss with you listeners,

767
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:26,959
Speaker 1: but first we're going to pause for a quick break

768
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor. And we're back. Thank you sponsor.

769
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 1: So now let's talk about this phase that you both

770
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: mentioned at the top the empty nest phase. When children leave,

771
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: what happens to this shifting identity of motherhood. Well, it's

772
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 1: funny because I think child rearing, even if you have

773
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: one child, is about eighteen years, and it's that's a

774
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: long chunk of time to do anything, and when you

775
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 1: have more than one child, it's significantly longer. But the

776
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: day they leave the house, you're still You're not not

777
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: a mother anymore. You're still a mother and you're still

778
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: mothering them. But all of the things that you did

779
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: on a daily basis, from making them breakfast, to checking

780
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: over their homework, to you know, making sure that they

781
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: had done their chores or whatever it was, that all

782
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 1: goes away and suddenly you have time that you've never

783
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: had before. And you also, it's not that you've become

784
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: a different person, but that you have the opportunity to

785
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: manifest a different aspect of yourself. And combined with all that,

786
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: you're really sad because you miss them terribly and your

787
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 1: husband is going, oh great now or alone, we can

788
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: have way more sex, which is exactly what happened to me.

789
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it's yes, we have way more sex. It's wonderful,

790
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 1: but it. I you know, we dropped my older daughter off,

791
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: and we had dropped my younger daughter off at boarding school,

792
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: and my husband wiped away exactly one tiny tier and

793
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: literally in the car commenced grabbing my knee, and I'm thinking,

794
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: have you not noticed that I am crying so hard

795
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: that there is not running down my face, like I

796
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 1: haven't cried like this, and I can't remember how long.

797
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 1: All I can say is the turn on for him.

798
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: It didn't like he wasn't really noticing anything except that

799
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 1: we are alone and we are going to be alone

800
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: for the next four months and this hasn't happened in

801
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: eighteen years. And oh my god, this is going to

802
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: be so exciting. It was exciting, it is exciting. But

803
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: I just I'm going to say that I think men

804
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: and women experienced this extremely differently. And I've compared this

805
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: particular note with Lisa and many other women, and it

806
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: is incredibly consistent. The guys are like, I'm dating my

807
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: wife again. This is good. And the women that's maybe

808
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: the fifteen thing they talk about when their kids leave home. Well,

809
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: we didn't touch on that previously when we're talking about

810
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: the phases of motherhood, but definitely the way that your

811
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: relationship with your partner, whether it's you know, a LGBT,

812
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: another woman or another man, or whoever you are, a

813
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: romantic partner who's co parenting with you, whoever your sexual

814
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: partner is definitely that relationship changes once you have kids,

815
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: time exhaustion, um, prioritizing kids over over spouse, which happens

816
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: a lot. I see it all the time where kids

817
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: come first and then the sexual partner is an afterthought

818
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: um and not even thought of really as a sexual partner.

819
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: Well that too because the partner partner, like I would sink,

820
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: I would die without you. I couldn't keep these balls

821
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 1: in the air without you. Props to the goal parents

822
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: out there, because I don't know how you do it.

823
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: I really don't well imagine dating that level of the

824
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: work that would have to go in to finding someone

825
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: new when you are balancing baby care at home not fun, no,

826
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: it's a motherhood is a crazy balancing act. But I

827
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: think with the when when you hit that empty nest phase,

828
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: all of the frustration that your partner may have felt

829
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: all those years and that your sex life has taken

830
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 1: a back seat for nothing else but just the noise

831
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: control exactly because you're on top of each other, you know,

832
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: with the room, say next to whatever it is. Um,

833
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: it's it's like a rebirth of your physical relationship because

834
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: nobody's there. It is, it is, And I do not

835
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: want to downplay how awesome that is. And you, you know,

836
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: you you sort of I even feel like there are

837
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 1: moments when you look at yourself in the mirror and

838
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: you're just a little you see yourself bathed in a

839
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: little bit of a front light, which is which is

840
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: a nice thing. I mean, I'm not I don't want to.

841
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to sort of cast this all as

842
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 1: just a horrible sobby moment because it's not. It's there's

843
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: so much to discover. Yeah, and you you know what, interestingly,

844
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: you are a different person, um after years of of

845
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: child rearing together and going through the ups and downs

846
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 1: of of life together. And that kind of intimacy does

847
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: have its benefits. Yeah. But I mean, you and I

848
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: are both married to famous talkers, and you know, mem

849
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: it is a literally famous talker. My husband is famous

850
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 1: in his circles for for all the talking that he does,

851
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: and yet there are silences, there are these moments and

852
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: you think like, wow, we haven't had we haven't sat

853
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 1: across from each other at a dinner table in our house,

854
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: just the two of us in you can't even remember

855
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 1: how long, and it's wonderful. And at the same time,

856
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: there can be a moment to reappraise the whole situation.

857
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: You know, I think a lot of relationships will fall

858
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: apart at that stage. Two, even if you aren't consciously

859
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: staying together for kids. You do get to that dinner

860
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: table and it's just the two of you looking at

861
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: each other, and you think the quiet you can be

862
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: a little weird than definitely, And yeah, and with this person,

863
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: you and you've got to start the conversation again because

864
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,399
Speaker 1: you've been distracted and you haven't paid attention because it's

865
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: been a family and your identity as in the family

866
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: and not as a couple. And then when you have

867
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 1: to face the fact that you are a couple, maybe

868
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: you don't want to be that couple. Yeah, yeah, I

869
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: mean I also want to say that I've seen I've

870
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: seen some I've seen some dad's grieve seriously when their

871
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: kids go off to school. And I don't I don't

872
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: want to generalize too much, but um, crying maybe more

873
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: from mom. I haven't cried yet. I don't think that

874
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: has about being empty nesters, but it is. It is

875
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: a shift, and it's a shift in how you see

876
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: yourself and what how you spend your time as an

877
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: individual and what you're what you're now going to be

878
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: spending your time is. But it's also a shift as

879
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: the relationship identity I think is definitely different than it

880
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: is as a family at home identity. I'm sure there's

881
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: some reevaluating that that goes on, because, yeah, if you

882
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: haven't had much time alone together for the past eighteen

883
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: or so years anyway, Yeah, coming back to that and

884
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: kind of having to figure out what this new, this

885
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 1: new phases for for both people in that situation, you know,

886
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: and I think for a lot of women, there's a

887
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: moment where you think, how much do I want to

888
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: invest in this? Maybe there are other things I care

889
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: about more, um, and your relationship may dissolve because of

890
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 1: that or maybe okay, UM, But I do I do

891
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: notice this in in sort of a lot of my

892
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: peers and women I look up to here a little

893
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: bit further along on this road than I am, some

894
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: of them decided it's not going to be about my relationship.

895
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna you know, there are all kinds of adventures

896
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: I want to have and other kinds of relationships I

897
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: want to pour myself into, and they put in only

898
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: what they want to. But there are these all these

899
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: extra cycles that you have and they're gonna they gotta

900
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: go somewhere. Yeah, We've heard it from a lot of women. Uh,

901
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 1: and it's been wonderful who after their children left, they

902
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: started traveling, they started doing things that they didn't get

903
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 1: the chance to do before they had children. And a

904
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: lot of them that we've heard from our doing it

905
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: by themselves and then kind of having coming back to

906
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: relationship and discussing like what did I to go to

907
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: while I was solo and having like these new conversation topics. Um,

908
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: but that's been really lovely hearing from women going out

909
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: and doing that. I'm kind of having this conversation with

910
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: my mom right now because she wants to go start traveling.

911
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 1: I'm very excited for her. Yeah, and just she want

912
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: to do this on her own. Yeah, she does go

913
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 1: your mom. I think that's fantastic. I mean, you know,

914
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: this is it's the first time time you've had in

915
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: so many years where you didn't really have to compromise

916
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: and you really can focus on yourself and how you

917
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: want to grow and who you want to be and

918
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 1: what kind of experiences you want to have. You can,

919
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: and you can do it with a partner, but when

920
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: you have kids at home, you know it's more like

921
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: the family is the priority, not necessarily your personal growth,

922
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: you know, your sense of adventure. Where does she want

923
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:32,000
Speaker 1: to go? She wants to go to either Ireland or

924
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:37,080
Speaker 1: Scotland or Hawaii. So that's a big spread there. Yeah, yeah,

925
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 1: she's gotta She loves um hiking, and Hawaii is good

926
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 1: for that. But she also loves beer and her families

927
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: from Scotland, so Scotland and Ireland are good for das.

928
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,760
Speaker 1: All right, she's got she's got two big trips. Yeah exactly,

929
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm all for it, take both of them. Would she

930
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: let you come with her? Oh? Absolutely, she would love to,

931
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,040
Speaker 1: just because I'm a big planner and I think it

932
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 1: would be a relief for her not to have to

933
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: plan something for once as well. Um, and I'm happy

934
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 1: to go. I'm super happy to come with her. Well, Mom,

935
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: if you're listening and he wants to go on this

936
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 1: trip with you cast an extra milefe whether you wanted

937
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: or not, Mom, I'm coming with um. This also reminds

938
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: me of another movie. I'm big on movies, if that

939
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 1: wasn't obvious, but there's a movie called What Lies Beneath

940
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 1: where Michelle Phifer's character Uh and her husband Harrison Ford

941
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: drop off their daughter. This is how the movie starts

942
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,919
Speaker 1: at college and immediately as they turned out the door,

943
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: Michelle Phifer starts crying and Harrison Ford it's like, oh no,

944
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,439
Speaker 1: you just start crawing right away. Um. Also he turned

945
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 1: out to be a murderer spoiler alert. But well, I

946
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: don't know. What Lies Beneath was a clue. Sounds like

947
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 1: a horror movie. It was one of my favorite horror

948
00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: movies as a kid. I was a strange kid. I guess,

949
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: So what happens next? I've never seen this. It sounds good. Well,

950
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: I could go into a whole thing. But there involves

951
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: like a mystery and like watching your neighbor and judging

952
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: your neighbor, and they do. They do start having a

953
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: lot of sex, kind of like when you started talking

954
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 1: about um, and then there's a ghost involved in a

955
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: seance and um, wow, it hasn't been like this, I'll

956
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: tell you. I think this is a very specific experience.

957
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 1: I hope so. But it did have some similar themes

958
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: to what you were discussing. Definitely. I mean, you know,

959
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: on my phone, I have a Robin Jill list which

960
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 1: is like stuff, and I've been adding to it, you know,

961
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: for about a year now. And it's kind of interesting

962
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: that I was that I did find myself so struck

963
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: by this transition because I've been looking forward to it

964
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: for such a long time. I mean, you know, it's

965
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: a long list I've been keeping on my phone and

966
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: we've been we've been like it's a it's a bucket list.

967
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: We've been getting checked any off. Yeah, yeah, definitely like

968
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: hanging on the chandelier type things, or like going to

969
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: the Adirondacks kind of thing. More like, um, all right,

970
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: this is gonna sound so dumb and boring, but like,

971
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: there's this jazz guitarist that plays in our neighborhood. He

972
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,400
Speaker 1: plays at ten o'clock on a Sunday night. That is

973
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: not when you have kids at home. Here jazz guitar

974
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: on a Sunday night, And now we do we do

975
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: stuff like that, you know, we like we'll grab a drink.

976
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: We work in the same neighborhood, we will grab a

977
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,919
Speaker 1: drink after work and just figure dinner out later, or

978
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, eat crackers when we get home. I

979
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: love not having to make dinners. God, it's such a

980
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: liberation because you feel compelled to actually feed your children.

981
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: If it's just your husband, you can say they're leftovers

982
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: in the fridge or exactly crackers. It's such a that

983
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: that is a real I didn't realize what a highlight

984
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: that would be some nights just to come home and

985
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: I forget it. I'm not even thinking about food. Yeah, yeah,

986
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: I mean certain routines. I don't know how other women

987
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: out there feel, but the making of the school lunch

988
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: was the straw that broke the camel's back for me

989
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: on a daily basis, and it just it just felt

990
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 1: like that one chore. There were many, many, many other

991
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 1: chores that went with being the parent of my two

992
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,720
Speaker 1: kids when they were home, that one chore was the

993
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: one I just resented so much. And I would be

994
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: sitting there at you know, eleven forty five at night,

995
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: cutting carrot sticks and just thinking I want to carve

996
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: out my own eyeball, this is just this is just

997
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: a nightmare. And you know there're things are so optional

998
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: now yeah, yep, there's like there's nothing like that. So

999
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm listening to jazz guitaris outing charasticks. It is funny.

1000
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: Otherres not always that one shore that, for some reason

1001
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: is the one that is too much. I don't know

1002
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 1: why it was lunch for me, What was it for you, Lisa? Um?

1003
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: It was not. There was never a chore, a specific

1004
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: thing that that would repeatedly get under my skin. I

1005
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: think it was for me, rather than being physical, was

1006
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: an emotional It was the fact that no matter what

1007
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: I was always the last priority. The kids needs would

1008
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: come first, mements needs would come first. What I wanted

1009
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: Sometimes Rosie the dogs needs the dog yeah, oh my gosh. Yes,

1010
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: I would be like hungover and I'd have to get

1011
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: a five and die dog out and it would be

1012
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 1: me um because she was training as a you know,

1013
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: as a puppy. But that would get to me sometimes

1014
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: it was just like, you know, why, why is everyone

1015
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: more valuable than I am in my own life? Um?

1016
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: And I would think about that sometimes and I would think,

1017
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: because that's what you've chosen and then you kind of

1018
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 1: shift it and you don't feel like a victim anymore.

1019
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: You feel like empowered because it is a choice, not

1020
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: something being thrust upon you. But that that that would

1021
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: sometimes be the thing that I would think about. Yeah, yeah,

1022
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: and and try not to boil with rage. No no,

1023
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: it was never rage. It was more a rageful mother.

1024
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 1: No no, no, no no. Which is that was your

1025
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: other podcast, the mother destroy Er any the rageful mother

1026
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: who eats her her children? Um? No, but it sometimes

1027
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: you just feel like there's never time for yourself. Yeah,

1028
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean, I do think again, this is not this

1029
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: is not typical of you at all. But I do

1030
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: think rage actually becomes a part of some women's maternal identity.

1031
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 1: That's just so dangerous. Sense of resentment and just the

1032
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: sense of being put upon. And they are so often

1033
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: absolutely justified that that feeling. But when it but it

1034
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: can become like a core piece of who you are,

1035
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 1: it kind of calcifies. Um. Over the years, I've seen

1036
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: it happen, I've felt it sometimes, have gone through through periods.

1037
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: You know, when my kids were one and three, my

1038
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: husband traveled all the time. He was you know, gone

1039
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: roughly half the time, and I was just I was

1040
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 1: so uh spread. Then it was were you angry at

1041
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: him or them? I was angry at my life, okay.

1042
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: I mean I knew he was doing the best he could.

1043
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: I was doing the best I could. Um. I wasn't

1044
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: angry at anyone in particular. I was rageful at the world. Um.

1045
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: And I remember it coming, you know, just I just

1046
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: felt like I just had daggers coming out my eyes

1047
01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 1: most of the time. I was like that, but it

1048
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: was always directed towards amendments target. Yeah, I couldn't take it. Well,

1049
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: he wasn't there either, So it's like you with Robert

1050
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,479
Speaker 1: where he was gone moment, was on call every either

1051
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: every third or every other night, and having little kids

1052
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: at home and being for all intents and purposes of

1053
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: single parent. There was anger there, but never towards my kids.

1054
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: It wasn't their fault. It was it was the whole

1055
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,480
Speaker 1: different ball game from two kids. I mean that is

1056
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 1: just you were so outnumber, so I couldn't have been

1057
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: because I kept getting exactly you wanted those four months.

1058
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 1: Get a release from it. I read so many accounts

1059
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: from women online describing exactly what you're talking about, and UM,

1060
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 1: feeling secondary in their own lives and having to adjust

1061
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: to that. UM, and we do have even more phases

1062
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: of motherhood and a little bit of UM pitfalls to

1063
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 1: avoid and tips. But first more quick break for word

1064
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 1: from our sponsor M and we're back, Thank you sponsor.

1065
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: So something else I found when I was researching this

1066
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 1: that we thought we'd touched on briefly because they are

1067
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 1: going to be their own episodes UM is the shifting

1068
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 1: identity after divorce. And since like we touched on at

1069
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: the top, women are often defined whether by themselves, are

1070
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: by someone else, or both through someone else, UM, that

1071
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: when they go through a divorce, they feel this identity

1072
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 1: crisis that now they check single as opposed to married. UM.

1073
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: And your kids might have a different last name than you. UM,

1074
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: your friends might have chosen a side, necessitating you to

1075
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: make new friends. And I think that is another thing

1076
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: that a out of mothers might go through at any

1077
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: of these phases that we've been discussing. Yeah, I think

1078
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:13,919
Speaker 1: while it changes how you see yourself completely and all

1079
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 1: in all the ways that you mentioned, I think it

1080
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: also changes your relationship to being a mother to your

1081
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 1: children in a variety of ways in which it can

1082
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:31,439
Speaker 1: manifest either you become competitive with your X for your

1083
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 1: child's emotions, or you can use your children as ponds

1084
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: in the war against your ex. Joe, you are a

1085
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:44,000
Speaker 1: child of divorce, How did how did that affect your

1086
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: relationship with your mom? And well, I mean, it was

1087
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 1: kind of a scorched earth divorce. It was hellish, um

1088
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,880
Speaker 1: and I think if anything, we were closer than ever,

1089
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 1: though not in the healthiest way because she relied on

1090
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: me emotionally, very heavily. Um. But that was like a

1091
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 1: that was a certain era of divorce where it was

1092
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 1: that period of time where so many of my friends

1093
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 1: were getting divorced and their father's basically left the picture.

1094
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe they were weekend dads. Maybe my father

1095
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 1: moved to the West coast. I saw him on vacations

1096
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 1: and very occasionally, and so my mom was suddenly, you know,

1097
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 1: the soul soul support for us emotionally, not financially, but emotionally.

1098
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: And I guess one of the things that I would

1099
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 1: say is that divorce is a is a really rocky

1100
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: and difficult identity shift. But I have seen people carve

1101
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 1: out really wonderful mother identities as divorced women. And I

1102
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: think in a really weird way. There is something about

1103
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 1: the more modern custody arrangement, which is fifty time sharing,

1104
01:06:57,440 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: that can be really healthy for moms. I mean, number one,

1105
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,560
Speaker 1: you cannot, no matter what, you cannot make yourself the

1106
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 1: soul primary parent. It forces your husband or your partner

1107
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: to step up. You cannot be the primary person. You

1108
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: can't be the best at it, and I think a

1109
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: lot of women find that a difficult transition. But ultimately

1110
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: it's kind of great. You know, your partner develops all

1111
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:28,360
Speaker 1: kinds of competency, you learn to respect them, and then

1112
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 1: you also have time. You shared custody means you have

1113
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: time with your kids and time to yourself. When a

1114
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 1: lot of that, you know where you do develop these

1115
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 1: other sides of yourself that if your kids are with

1116
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: you seven you may not have it. So I mean,

1117
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 1: obviously I'm not recommending divorces, and shared custody is the

1118
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: you know, the the new and beneficial social construct that

1119
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: we should all be striving for. It's incredibly painful, but

1120
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 1: um I've seen I've seen great co parenting examples amongst

1121
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:04,640
Speaker 1: my friends. I think divorce is totally different in this

1122
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: day and age than it was when I was a kid,

1123
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: and I've I've seen women you know, that sort of

1124
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,440
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth thing happened in an extreme way, partly

1125
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: because they have time every other weekend, every other weekend

1126
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: and half the weeks. Uh and sort of going off

1127
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: of this, I'm pretty sure I've mentioned on the show,

1128
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,479
Speaker 1: but I am planning a deep dive on the evil

1129
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: stepmother trope, and through my research, I've learned so much

1130
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 1: about how this evil stepmother identity has bled out into

1131
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 1: the real world and makes stepmothers doubt themselves and makes

1132
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:45,799
Speaker 1: step children distressed their stepmothers. Um. A lot of accounts

1133
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: I've read described that the stereotype undermines their confidence when parenting,

1134
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 1: and it starts as early as like whenever they can

1135
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 1: watch Cinderella. Um, so we're definitely gonna come back to that.

1136
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 1: But if there's anything you want to say before we

1137
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:03,400
Speaker 1: moved on, until you had a stepmother, I did. I did.

1138
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: I lost her a few years ago. You know, she

1139
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: was a fantastic figure in my life. She really was.

1140
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 1: She couldn't have been more different from my mother, and um,

1141
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 1: she was never really in a caretaking role with me

1142
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 1: at all. She became my stepmom when I was thirteen

1143
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:23,759
Speaker 1: and she lived with my father on the West Coast.

1144
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:29,679
Speaker 1: She was significantly younger than my dad and so seemed

1145
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: like a very young woman to me, much younger than

1146
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: my mom. And she taught me by example all kinds

1147
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: of things. She taught me what right up close, what

1148
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: a different kind of woman who's made different kinds of

1149
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 1: choices would was like. And it was. It was incredibly helpful.

1150
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:54,640
Speaker 1: The first few years weren't pretty. I won't I won't lie, um,

1151
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 1: and you know, we laughed about them later, but eventually

1152
01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 1: it was. It actually really enriched my life, I would say, though,

1153
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 1: And I think your research is absolutely right, And it

1154
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,719
Speaker 1: is such a thankless role because often you are pulling

1155
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:10,879
Speaker 1: just as much weight as any of the other parents

1156
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: in this situation. Um. And yet you will never get

1157
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: any kind of congratulations or appreciation um unless unless that

1158
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: child singles you out and lets you know, um that

1159
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 1: they care about you and that you're helpful to them.

1160
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 1: The world will not give you that kind of acknowledgement.

1161
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:37,400
Speaker 1: The kid might, um, but but the world certainly won't. Yeah.

1162
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 1: I think I think the reason that all the fairy

1163
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: tales is not just Cinderella, the evil stepmothers in Snow White,

1164
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 1: in um Hansel and Gretel, and I think on a

1165
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 1: psychological level, it's a safer way for us to deal

1166
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:57,839
Speaker 1: with the dark side of the mother archetype, that devouring

1167
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 1: mother that you talked about in your last part cast Um,

1168
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: because it is so universal and um and I do

1169
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:09,640
Speaker 1: think it's something that we have to contend with in

1170
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 1: our psyches. And so I do think making it a

1171
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: stepmother rather than the archetype, you know, Madonna image is

1172
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: just a way for our psyches to process that devouring

1173
01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 1: mother archetype. Um. So it's unfortunate that the stepmother gets

1174
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 1: gets the that bad rap, but I think it's a

1175
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 1: it's a bigger archetype than necessarily your your father's new wife. Yeah.

1176
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting that we don't have, you know,

1177
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 1: the same roiling cauldron of associations with a stepfather. I mean,

1178
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, no, because fathers can just be straight

1179
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,600
Speaker 1: up negative. You can have the good dad and the

1180
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: bad dad. But but archetypically the if it's your mom

1181
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 1: in a fairy tale or mythology, she's she's usually protective,

1182
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: whereas the step mom portrays that negative side, that could

1183
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 1: be your real mother. It's a duality, but we don't

1184
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 1: have the same duality associated with fathers. There is a

1185
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 1: lot of really interesting history stuff and cultural stuff around it. UM.

1186
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 1: I can't wait to talk about it, So keep anywhere

1187
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:20,719
Speaker 1: out for that listeners. Another thing that we're not going

1188
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,400
Speaker 1: to talk about a lot in this episode, but it

1189
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 1: can and will be its own episode. Um. It's the

1190
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 1: reverse of this of women whose identities shift when they

1191
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 1: have lost a child or find out that they can't

1192
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:34,719
Speaker 1: get pregnant. Um. And of course adoption is an option

1193
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:38,880
Speaker 1: for most people anyway, not everyone, um, But from what

1194
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: I've learned speaking to folks who are going through this anecdotally,

1195
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 1: is it shifts how you view yourself and your body,

1196
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 1: especially if you've always dreamed of getting pregnant and having children.

1197
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: So that will certainly be its own conversation, absolutely, And

1198
01:12:55,680 --> 01:13:00,360
Speaker 1: I wish that there was a channel, um way or

1199
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:03,080
Speaker 1: it's just it's a very difficult thing for women to

1200
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: share with one another with the world. Um. You know,

1201
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 1: we keep our pregnancies a secret so until we know

1202
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: they're viable, and so when that loss happens, nobody knows

1203
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: how much you hoped how much you how real that

1204
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 1: child was for you? You said secret. It is funny.

1205
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: It makes me think that, you know, In preparation for

1206
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 1: this podcast, I was thinking, what's the literature around motherhood

1207
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 1: and and identity? And there hasn't been a whole heck

1208
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: of a lot on it, and there certainly Shakespeare didn't

1209
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 1: write about it. And as everything is um from I

1210
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: think partially because it maybe it isn't that interesting to men.

1211
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: I don't know why there hasn't been more thought put

1212
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 1: into it. But part of it, I think is because

1213
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: we we as women, keep everything secret and have historically

1214
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,760
Speaker 1: done so. So you were we were talking about the

1215
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:57,639
Speaker 1: other day when we get our periods, there's something every

1216
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:00,759
Speaker 1: transition we make it feels shameful, like thing we can't

1217
01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:03,679
Speaker 1: share with people around us, even our mothers and sisters.

1218
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 1: We try to hide it for a while or very

1219
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,360
Speaker 1: rarely is it something that is like, oh yeah, I

1220
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: just got my period. Thank god. Girls finally changing around

1221
01:14:12,240 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 1: this and being a little more open certainly, you know,

1222
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 1: but the same thing with pregnancy, with loss of pregnancy,

1223
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 1: with struggles with fertility is not something you advertise or

1224
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 1: even seek help on. Menopause when was the last time

1225
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,560
Speaker 1: someone's like, oh, yeah, I'm menopausal And I was like, oh,

1226
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:34,760
Speaker 1: they're so terrifyingly shameful, like bury me now, I can't talk.

1227
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:37,559
Speaker 1: So I think, as women, so much of what we

1228
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 1: experience in our shifting identity we hold inside and we

1229
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 1: don't because we feel either that we're going to be

1230
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 1: judged by it on it or that no one can

1231
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 1: relate to it, or that I don't know why, but

1232
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 1: it feels like our whole lives are a little bit secret.

1233
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, part of the reason we

1234
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 1: we started you earns, was to try and bring those

1235
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: transitions out of the closet and just make it make

1236
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 1: it normal to talk about to talk about those transitions. Um,

1237
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: but I do feel like, just getting back to loss

1238
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:17,920
Speaker 1: of a child, it's amazing how attached and how fully

1239
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:21,759
Speaker 1: formed of the idea of a baby can be before

1240
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:25,440
Speaker 1: a bump even appears, you know. I mean, I remember

1241
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 1: my um kynecologist did some kind of a sonogram early

1242
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 1: early on and announced that I was having a boy,

1243
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:39,880
Speaker 1: and so I was really surprised that we could know

1244
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 1: this so early. And then immediately this was this boy

1245
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: that I was having, and I he just took form

1246
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:51,960
Speaker 1: for me. And then about a month later she said, oh,

1247
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: I was strong girl, And it was crazy how I felt.

1248
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 1: I felt it as a loss. I was thrilled to

1249
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 1: be being a girl, but I wasn't having that boy.

1250
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 1: And in the course of a month, he was he

1251
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 1: and he was you know, he was in our lives

1252
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 1: and I was lucky I didn't ever have a miscarriage.

1253
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:18,760
Speaker 1: But it felt like a loss. And it made me realize, Wow,

1254
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 1: what an extraordinary if that felt like a loss, how

1255
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:28,240
Speaker 1: big to lose your pregnancy. Yeah, it's just so overwhelming.

1256
01:16:28,439 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: I think, um, because it's it's you, but it's somebody else,

1257
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, you have a relationship. Um. And and I

1258
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 1: think within fertility to people really struggle and even if

1259
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:45,560
Speaker 1: they have never been pregnant or and just the inability

1260
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 1: to get pregnant, I think it's it's something that is

1261
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:51,920
Speaker 1: way deeper than we you know. It makes me, It

1262
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 1: makes me actually wonder. So the reason we don't you

1263
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:56,719
Speaker 1: don't tell anyone when you first find out you're pregnant

1264
01:16:57,120 --> 01:17:00,040
Speaker 1: is because there's a high risk that you'll miss a

1265
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:03,960
Speaker 1: in the first trime master and you don't want to

1266
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:08,680
Speaker 1: have to tell people about that. Yeah, why do we

1267
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 1: do that? I don't know. I think they're superstition too,

1268
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:14,440
Speaker 1: because you think, like if you told them in the

1269
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:17,200
Speaker 1: right like you always like, I just wonder how different

1270
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:19,880
Speaker 1: it would be if culturally we just said, yeah, I

1271
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:25,680
Speaker 1: got positive pregnancy test, fingers crossed, I'm pregnant, and then

1272
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 1: and then, yes, you would have to tell people any

1273
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: when you had told, you would have to tell. But

1274
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 1: maybe then you wouldn't feel so alone. I don't know.

1275
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:36,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just just tossing it out there world. Yeah,

1276
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:38,280
Speaker 1: and you have to do you have to do a

1277
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,639
Speaker 1: whole podcast on this because it's so big and it's

1278
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 1: such a such an important, I think topic. So it's

1279
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:49,920
Speaker 1: it's up to you. Okay. I probably agree that, like,

1280
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:53,040
Speaker 1: these are conversations that we should be having more of,

1281
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 1: UM and just to get a better scope of what

1282
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:01,160
Speaker 1: people are dealing with the experiences out there. UM. But

1283
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 1: that is for a different episode, not this one. We're

1284
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:07,600
Speaker 1: going to wrap things up here with some advice and

1285
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:10,200
Speaker 1: the number one of which I read online was patients

1286
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:13,759
Speaker 1: UM and learning to be okay with not being perfect,

1287
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 1: and you both touched on that pretty early on in

1288
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 1: the beginning and then another one I would say is

1289
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:23,760
Speaker 1: be mindful of social media you consume and comparing yourself

1290
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 1: to other parents. We've said it time and time again

1291
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 1: on this show. You are seeing a very cultivated image

1292
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 1: on social media, and that's what it's for. But just

1293
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,719
Speaker 1: you need to be aware of that um and don't

1294
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:40,720
Speaker 1: put yourself down. Don't use that step to put yourself down.

1295
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:43,760
Speaker 1: And this goes with like everything but mothering specifically in

1296
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 1: this episode, and I found a quote from clinical and

1297
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:51,680
Speaker 1: maternal psychologist A really a Thon who coined the term matrescence,

1298
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:55,080
Speaker 1: which is sort of like the awkward mother heard version

1299
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 1: of adolescence, and he describes mothering as an experience similar

1300
01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:01,759
Speaker 1: to a layered cake, which I love. So she wrote,

1301
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 1: mothering changes with experience with every child, there's a layer

1302
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 1: cake effect, and there are different stories and mothering young

1303
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:09,720
Speaker 1: babies or children age or two three than there are

1304
01:19:10,040 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 1: and how to raise young children or adolescents, and then

1305
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:16,200
Speaker 1: also emerging adults, and then the empty nest experience. There

1306
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:18,799
Speaker 1: are mothers of now grown children who continue to wrestle

1307
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:21,840
Speaker 1: with the very same questions. The story just deepens and

1308
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,679
Speaker 1: becomes all the more fascinating, and she's pushing for women

1309
01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:28,040
Speaker 1: to talk about these realities of motherhood that we don't

1310
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:31,600
Speaker 1: hear about a lot with the hashtag made Trescent. So

1311
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:36,320
Speaker 1: if any of you listeners want to share these experiences,

1312
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 1: there's a hashtag for you. And ultimately, like we were

1313
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:42,560
Speaker 1: discussing when we were planning this episode, we need to

1314
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 1: find a way to think about ourselves and this question

1315
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:50,160
Speaker 1: of identity and multiple identities and how they coexist and

1316
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:54,240
Speaker 1: how external relationships impact how we see ourselves, which is

1317
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 1: not a simple task, no, but we can start having

1318
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:03,479
Speaker 1: this these conversations and asking these questions of ourselves. Yes, definitely.

1319
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 1: I mean that is not the catchiest hashtag I've ever heard,

1320
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:11,559
Speaker 1: but a fascinating term, and it's a fascinating idea. And

1321
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:15,280
Speaker 1: I do feel like, you know, women, the more open

1322
01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:19,400
Speaker 1: we can be in sharing the you know, as I said,

1323
01:20:19,439 --> 01:20:23,000
Speaker 1: it's a job description that seems to change every three

1324
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,760
Speaker 1: months or so, so you never get good at this.

1325
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 1: Just that's that's the way. That's what being a mom is.

1326
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:35,600
Speaker 1: And sharing the sort of stumbles along the way that

1327
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:39,960
Speaker 1: we all experience kind of constantly is I think just

1328
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:44,519
Speaker 1: unbelievably healthy. I agree. I also think I think we

1329
01:20:44,560 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 1: need to be more clear on who we are ourselves. UM,

1330
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,839
Speaker 1: as much as other people can be supportive and how

1331
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 1: and necessary in our lives, I really do think that

1332
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 1: we sometimes lose sight of our own north star. So

1333
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: I think checking in every now and then to know

1334
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,760
Speaker 1: who you really are, who what your values are, will

1335
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:07,120
Speaker 1: keep you from being buffeted by all those things that

1336
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,599
Speaker 1: pull your identity in different directions. Take that trip, take

1337
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:15,160
Speaker 1: that trip to Hawaii. Yes, I love this. It's like advice,

1338
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:19,640
Speaker 1: official advice I can give my mom now. UM. And

1339
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:22,920
Speaker 1: I also think, UM, one thing that came up one

1340
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 1: last thing before we head out here is UM being

1341
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 1: real about the difficulties and feelings that you might experience

1342
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:33,559
Speaker 1: that are on the more negative side, but also being

1343
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 1: real about the positive things and the winds, so that

1344
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:46,360
Speaker 1: it's a a more nuanced and accurate true experience. Yep. Yeah.

1345
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:50,880
Speaker 1: With with especially with motherhood, with every UM challenge, there's

1346
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: always something, there's always a blessing. Children are are such

1347
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 1: a blessing. So I just think being aware of that, UM,

1348
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:01,080
Speaker 1: that no matter why you're going through, there is an

1349
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:08,240
Speaker 1: element of blessing in that experience. Well, I think that's

1350
01:22:08,240 --> 01:22:10,439
Speaker 1: a pretty good place to leave it unless either of

1351
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:13,840
Speaker 1: you have something to add. Oh no, thank you so much.

1352
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:17,960
Speaker 1: Has been a real pleasure, fascinating conversation. Thanks yes, thank

1353
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:20,920
Speaker 1: you both so much for joining us today and helping

1354
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 1: out with co hosting. Where can people find you at

1355
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:31,679
Speaker 1: You Turns Podcast? There you go easy, it's y oh

1356
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 1: you turns Well. Thanks again for joining us, and if

1357
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:39,839
Speaker 1: you listeners would like to share your experiences with motherhood

1358
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,559
Speaker 1: identity any of these conversations we brought up are really

1359
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,160
Speaker 1: anything at all, You can email as Our email is

1360
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:47,360
Speaker 1: mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You can

1361
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:49,800
Speaker 1: also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast and

1362
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:52,400
Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff I Never Told you. Thanks to

1363
01:22:52,439 --> 01:22:55,799
Speaker 1: you for listening, and thanks as always to a producer,

1364
01:22:56,000 --> 01:23:03,040
Speaker 1: Trevor Yaga, who's the for