WEBVTT - Cider Coast to Coast 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.840 Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast about the 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.520 world of food from around the world. I'm your host, 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:25.720 Steven Saderfield. Today's episode, Cider Coast features a very good 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.040 friend of mine, Megan Larmer, who is the director of 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:33.240 Regional Food at the Glenwood Center for Regional Foods and Farming. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.760 She holds an anthropology degree from the University of London, 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.880 where her research focused on seed exchange, first generation women 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:47.239 farmers in food heritage. Megan continues her social science research 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.159 on food and farming as a PhD student at the 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.760 University of Exeter's Center for Rural Policy Research. She has 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.920 a broad range of experience in food and agriculture, including 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.080 ten years as a restaurant professional running one of the 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:07.680 Midwest largest and most successful farmers markets, and an apprenticeship 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:20.600 at Bread and Puppet Theater farm. Megan, thank you so 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.600 much for joining us on Point of Origin. It's leisure 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.679 to be here, Stephen, thanks for having me. I have 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.760 had emerging love affair with cider from my time in 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:34.120 California in the Bay Area, getting to meet the makers 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.959 and also taste the fruits of their labor literally and 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:42.639 some wonderful ciders from Sebastopol, but on the other side 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.120 of the country in the Hudson Valley. I was not 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:51.200 aware of how epic and prolific the cider community was 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.640 until I met you. I'd love to know how you 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:59.640 got involved, or maybe how Glennwood got involved so directly 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.440 an explicitly and wanting to support the cider community in 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:08.520 the area. So the work around cider predates my time 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:11.119 at Glenwood, and I was actually got into it by 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.760 a former colleague of mine, Sarah Grady, who nearly ten 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:19.960 years ago, was looking for inspiration in fulfill england Wood 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.240 mission to support a regional food system and looking for 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.679 that inspiration to other parts of the world that had 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.920 a strong sense of regionality in their their food and 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.600 really tied that food to an agricultural space, into cultural 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.360 resilience in rural communities. And she was inspired by Normandy 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.080 in France, a region that has pretty similar landscape to 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.640 the Hudson Valley, and saw that there was, you know, 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:48.400 a strong cider making community there and wondered, why was 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.079 the historic apple orchards here in the Hudson Valley, I mean, 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.440 New York is the big Apple of apples states, Why 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.359 there was not this tradition of cider making in our 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:03.160 own region. She hunted down the small handful of forward 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:07.760 thinking apple growers and beveridge makers who were working insider, 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.080 and they didn't exchange with the makers there in France. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.440 Coming back from that, we're hugely inspired to recreate some 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:19.000 of what they've seen in France, while also recognizing that 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.840 America is a very different place. In New York in 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.040 the Hudson Valley are a very different place. And so 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.080 I had worked to engage with the trade and start 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.400 to build this category of cider, which was pretty much 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:33.960 unknown at that point in the US. You know, there 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:38.200 is certainly the history of apples and colonial settlement that 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.560 is strong in in the Northeast. To all the legends 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.560 around Johnny Apple feeds. The Lord is good to me, 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.920 and so I thankful Lar for given me the things 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:58.520 I need. The sun Menrain I don't know, and others 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.400 who planted these seedling apples not only as a means 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.440 of subsistence survival to have something safe to drink, but 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.840 also as a means of claiming land and clearing the 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.960 land that was by all rights occupied by the indigenous 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.840 peoples of this country. So there's some complicated history in that. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.000 So the Hudson Valley was a huge apple producer actually 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.120 was shipping apples to England in the colonial period, well 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.280 known and we love for the ambaging apples that were 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.880 produced here and that seedling world, which for folks who 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.120 don't know, apples that produced from seedlings will produce highly 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:34.200 variable fruits. So these are basically new apples. If you 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:35.960 want the same apple, you have to do that through 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.880 through grafting and more of a cloning process to these 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.800 seedlings were being grown, like the Newtown Pippin is one 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.080 of our most beloved varieties of apples from Newtown, New York. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.880 What is what is now part of Queens and these 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.320 apples are gaining a lot of fame now. At the 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.120 same time, cider was considered really a pretty rough country 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.120 drink was used in in presidential campaigns to sort of 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.839 smear candidates to say, you know, they just drank left 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.360 cider while we should be drinking champagne. In the White House. 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.279 The Whig Party, predecessor to the Republicans, decided to nominate 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.440 as their candidate William Henry Harrison, a military hero. Although 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.279 he was raised in a rather aristocratic Virginia family, Harrison 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:26.520 supporters managed to recast their man as the log cabin 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:31.000 and hard cider candidate. Out on the campaign trail, Harrison 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:34.240 would swig hard cider during his stump speeches, and his 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:39.159 supporters would sing songs to tobacco and punctuate the choruses 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:45.200 by spitting. There was a lot of ideation around cider 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:50.040 as being a rural, rustick and particularly of our landscape 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.599 kind of drink, while the aspirations of the upper class 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.160 in the US were looking towards Europe and moving into 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:58.200 the guilded age, with these ideas of you know, all 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.600 things worth having are coming from the continent rather than 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:05.640 coming from our own soils here. During Prohibition, cider really 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:07.920 did not survive well. It was much easier to make 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.479 distilled spirits on the slive and it was to make cider. 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.280 So a lot of the love of those American varietals 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.280 that were specifically for cider making, or crab apples or 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.159 the mini seedlings that you know are called spitters. They're 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:22.799 not nice to eat, but add incredible qualities to cider. 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.080 Those were visit of went by the wayside, and the 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.240 revival of that practice really has only been in the 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.440 last the last couple of decades on any kind of 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:35.080 commercial scale. And what I always is interesting to think 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.120 about is there was not really ever a commercial industry 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.800 for cider. So while the cider of today is using 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.760 apples that were discovered, if you will, centuries before ours 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.600 or being brought over from Europe the same way you 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.000 would for wine grapes because they have known value as 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.479 cider apples, the industry of commercial cider sale is something 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.720 entirely new in the United States, and a lot of 0:06:57.720 --> 0:06:59.960 that is thanks to some of the pioneers here in 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:03.440 the northeastern New York. That is such an excellent point 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.799 this industry as you're describing. Obviously, you can't talk about 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:12.800 cider without talking about apples, and yet cider as a 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:18.240 beverage in the consciousness of especially like millennial drinkers, is 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.720 a new thing, and I myself, as a late millennial drinker, 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:27.440 feel that I see cider more and more in restaurants 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:32.080 and bars than ever, with variable quality, but it seems 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.760 as though the presence is higher than it's been since 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.440 I can remember. Part of the interesting thing about working 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:43.280 in cider right now is that it is like a 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.160 new entrant into our thinking about drinks categories. There's a 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.720 lot of internal grappling within the cider community about how 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:55.600 we define that category because we are working with in 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.840 many ways more sophisticated drinkers, because the education of a 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.360 Aerican drinkers around wine has given them some vocabulary to 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.960 talk about cider, but so to the crafts beer explosion 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.760 has given some vocabulary to talk about cider. And we're 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.920 really trying to find a way to define cider as 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:19.200 itself rather than as an allegory or a substitute or 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.000 a novelty drink for when you aren't drinking wine or beer. 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.520 It's really interesting to look at and we have that 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.960 kind of diversity, certainly within the Hudson Valley. We have 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:32.680 producers like Metal House and like Hudson Valley Farmhouse siders 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.960 that are being produced no more or less estate cider's 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:40.400 bottle condition have really interesting different kinds of notes, very 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.920 dry ciders to a wonderful producer called nine Pin Cider 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:48.600 in Albany that is producing really great, really like easy drinking, 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.200 casual times cider and it is a huge hit across 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.720 the bars of Albany. Engs between cans of cider too, 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.240 seven fifty four matt two magnums. If you're drinking almost anywhere, 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.079 you're more likely be more cider than you were previously. 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.959 And part of the question is how do we create 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:09.080 an identity for what cider is is as inclusive as 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.800 possible and still carves out that unique space for it. 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.640 That leads me to my next question, which is how 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:21.079 does one go about the business of defining a drinking culture. Yeah, well, 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:26.959 for re personally and certainly for Glenwood, are focus is 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.400 that this is an agricultural product. So we got into 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.920 the cider space because we wanted to see the orchards 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:35.920 that have been here, in the orchards that could be 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.200 here have an opportunity to thrive in the space of 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.400 tremendous pressures for real estate development as well as all 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.600 of the other pressures that go alongside being a farmer 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.800 and the unique pressures of being an orchard that you know, 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:51.640 you make an investment in these trees and it could 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.720 be seven ten years before you're seeing harvests that can 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.760 can really justify that investment. So we have a strong, 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.360 strong interest and define cider is a truly agricultural product 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:07.880 and really centering the apple as the key element of ciders, 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.480 that if you are working with lower quality apple, then 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:14.640 I I don't think it's possible to make a really 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.640 nice cider, and I think that we have plenty of 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:22.200 examples of that and other fermented drinks. So to me, 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.680 like the defining thing, ciders are made from apples, and 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:30.080 that sounds really basic, but there's plenty of market research 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.480 to show that that's not a commonly understood concept in 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.160 the general public, and there's been plenty of efforts to 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.400 obfuscate that, and in some ways a lining cider with 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.080 beer does some of that obfuscating. So a lot of 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:43.680 the education we do is, you know, this is a 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.360 product made from fruit, made from the juice of this fruit. 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.160 Fermented juice is what cider is, and what that fruit 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.319 is really matters to the quality of it. So that's 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.560 part of the education we try to do. Beyond that, 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.960 building a culture around a drink is slower and in 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.360 some ways even more fun than just the education marketing part, 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:08.200 because it means giving people that personal experience of seeing 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.480 what the landscape is that the cider is coming from, 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.040 seeing the faces and the people and the stories and 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:18.520 the families and communities that are making that cider and 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.000 giving giving them a chance to really experience it sort 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.600 of as their own. So to that end, Glennwood founded 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.720 Cider Week in New York City, which it has now 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.320 evolved into cyder Rick Hudson Valley, a cyder Rican, the 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:33.880 Finger Lakes, and the Cider Rican Western New York, all 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:35.840 of which are now organized and led by the New 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:39.400 York Cider Association, which is a statewide trade association that 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.359 that Glenwood founded as well and is now operating independently 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.280 to really serve the growers and makers of the state. 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:50.800 I remember one story in particular of a I think 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.240 it was a bunch of condos that we're going to 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:59.520 be built over some really old apple orchards. But you all, obviously, 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.240 with the support of the local farmers, were able to 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.360 band together and save the orchards. Can you talk about 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.960 that story where that was happening and how that came 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.360 to be. Yeah, So that's on a farm just up 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.640 up the road from us here in Hopewell Junction. It's 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:19.720 called Fishkill Farms. The farmer there, Josh Morgan fow Is, 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.240 you know, in his early thirties, came back to farming 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.679 after going to art school. He saw the land that 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:30.680 his grandfather had carefully tended being portioned off to real 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:33.920 estate development too, condos, And you know, this speaks to 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.280 the fact that the Hudson Valley in general, making a 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:41.360 living here as a farmer has historically always been incredibly difficult, 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.760 but particularly with the growth of the city and the 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.480 outmigration of folks who wanted to be living on one 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:51.560 acre properties rather than the fifteen twenty several hundred acre 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.199 farms that were here, saw that land being portioned out 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.240 and sold off and really came back to the land 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:02.840 with a strong desire to keep it whole. So fishkill 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:04.959 farms is as you pick farm. That's been one of 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:09.000 the really key innovations and strategies in keeping fruit farms 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.760 going in the Hudson Valley, so opening up to a 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.760 sort of agro tourism world. But when he saw that 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.400 the land that was no longer no longer part of 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.319 their family farm was about to be sold off for condos, 0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.920 and that orchard land torn up, those trees torn up, 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.040 we helped to coordinate with him and with land Trust 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.719 here in the Hudson Valley to preserve that land for 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.840 agricultural usage, and they have since that been putting in 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.480 more and more cider varietals, opening up that land to 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:43.480 cider production. Josh is a really wonderful innovative thinker. He 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:46.080 has put a cider works on site, He's opened a 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.360 cider bar to add to the agri tourism aspects, and 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.920 they're also growing diversified vegetables and just doing a beautiful 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:55.200 job of really activating that space as an agricultural space 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.280 that is both productive and it's helping to tell the 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.520 story to a wider audience of the importance of those spaces. Brilliant. 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.800 You really nailed it with kind of what's required on 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.200 the end of the farmer, for better for worse in 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:13.800 terms of economic viability and sustainability. But I am particularly 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:20.760 interested when programs or food and beverages can recenter thinking 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:27.080 and conversations around agriculture because that disconnect is really so 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.680 vast for many consumers that I'm just really grateful for 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:36.480 your work. And if we wanted to drink some ciders, 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.360 I know that you don't want to exclude anyone um 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:41.400 from the Hudson Valley. I wouldn't ask you to do that. 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:45.200 But maybe give us some uh some notable ones for 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.280 their character, for their story. Sure well. So one of 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.360 the really cool things that is happening now is that 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.960 more and more cideries up here are opening tasting rooms 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.560 in the Hudson Valley, and I think that is just 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.400 such a wonderful used to bring out into the landscape 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.160 and also to try a bunch of different fighters. I 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.080 had to name some of my favorite tasting rooms to 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:11.120 taste cider in. Certainly Fishkill Farms and their Treasury Cider 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.800 and their ciders are really nice and each has a 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.680 particular history to that place and the fruit that they're producing. 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:21.800 I'd also definitely recommend Orchard Hill Ciders again multi generational 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.640 family farm on Stons Farm and the orchard and Jeff Suns, 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.760 the current orchard iss too there, has a deep love 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:33.080 for architecture and has built an absolutely beautiful tasting room 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:37.320 that draws on the architecture of other historic cider regions. 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.200 If you're in the city, step into Gramercy Tavern. They 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:45.560 have an un paralleled cider lists on their their drinks 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:48.160 menu buy the glass. You can really walk through some 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.560 of the greatest ciders being produced in the state. With 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.160 really knowledgeable staff, so I'd recommend albows and yeah, if 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.640 you're looking for a more casual time, Brooklyn Cider House 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.000 has a great spot in Brooklyn to enjoy enjoy their site, 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.240 DS and some barbecues and music. So, Megan, I appreciate 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.840 you swinging by today to talk to us about cider 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.400 and joining us on point of origin. Thank you, Stephen, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:16.400 have a great day. Thanks you too. That was Megan Larmer, 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.240 the director of Regional Foods at the Glenwood Center for 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.640 Regional Foods and Farming. The Lord is good to me, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:30.000 and so I thankful Lord for giving me the things 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:33.320 I need, the sun and rain and at sea. Yes, 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:42.280 Ease's been good to me. I waked up every day 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:47.320 as happy as can be because I know the green 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.120 of this hare, my apple trees, they was to be 0:16:50.360 --> 0:17:13.000 there all the Lord good to me. Welcome back to 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:18.120 point of origin today. Cider Coast to Coast and representing 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.119 the West Coast. A really cool dude, someone that I 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:25.600 like very much, an old friend of mine who has 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.920 been making cider in Santa Cruz or just outside of 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.920 Santa Cruz for the last couple of years. This company 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.840 is Tanuki Cider and We're very pleased to have Robbie 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.800 Honda Cider Maker joining us today. UM point of origin. 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.480 Thanks Robbie and Man, thank you so much. I kind 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.600 of mentioned to you that I have been theorizing about 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.600 the rise of cider as I'm starting to see more 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.240 small growers on restaurant list and bars when I'm out 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.560 and about in the world. But before we start to 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.359 talk about cider at large, I wanted to talk to 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:10.240 you about how you got into the business of making cider. Sure, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.800 let me see. So, I think the main inspiration came 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.720 from some family history. My mom grew up in western 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.600 Sunoma County in the town called Sabastopool, on the apple 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.200 orchard that my great grandfather planted almost a hundred years ago. 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:26.639 My grandmother was born and raised on this orchard, as 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.600 well as my mom and my five aunties and some 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:33.119 of their cousins. And my brother and I grew up 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.600 down south in Orange County outside l A, southern California, 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.560 but we'd spend all summers and you know, holidays, traveling 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.639 up to the orchard to go visit family in Sabastopool. So, 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.320 I mean some of my fondest, earliest memories are outside 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:50.040 of suburbia. Were runt of the apple orchards of my 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.280 cousins and cruising around throwing rotten apples at each other 0:18:53.440 --> 0:18:56.399 and eating fresh apples through in the fall. Did it 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.639 hurt to get hit with a rotten apple? Or is 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.960 it just annoying a dude? It's stinky, but it was 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.480 really fun, you know, super novel. We'd go up during 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.280 Thanksgiving sometimes, you know, and that's pretty much post harvest. 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.760 Things are wrapping up up in Sabastopol and there's a 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:12.960 bunch of rotten apples on the ground that people haven't 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.880 cleaned up, and the animals running through. So my brother 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.359 and my cousins you throw on our country clothes and 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.840 go out on the orchard and run around and smash 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:25.520 each other with apples. That was really funny. Yeah, Well, 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.040 it's cool that you are still connected to that extremely 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:31.480 long legacy. I didn't realize your family went back so 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:36.160 far in Sebastopol. And for people who are not familiar 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.800 with Sebastopol, can you say a little bit about their history? Again, 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:43.399 as you mentioned, it's in Sonoma County, northern California, but 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.119 can you say a little bit about the history of 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:49.360 cider and Sebastopol in particular. Yeah, I mean, before Sonoma 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.959 County and Napa Valley were known as as grape country 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.439 wine country, they were definitely apple country, especially western Sunama 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.600 County where Sebastopol is located clu to the Russian River, 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.240 it gets a lot of that coastal dog similar to 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.920 where I'm at now in the central coast in Santa Cruz. 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.280 You know, there was a long history and tradition of 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:10.760 of apple growing in Sebastopool. Specifically, my great grandfather came 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.600 from Japan in the early nineteen hundreds to San Francisco. 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.120 The earthquake happened, and he ended up in the countryside 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.560 in Sebastopool as doing my grant apple labor. Back then, 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:27.119 industry was booming. There were tons of packing houses, dryers, juicers, 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.639 apple sauce. I mean, there was a huge industry of 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.879 apples going on in the early nineteen hundreds. My family 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:35.600 was a part of that. Like a lot of other 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.320 people in the area. Agriculture was big, and apples was 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.560 huge for my family. A lot of things changed during 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.360 World War Two. My grandmother and my great Auntie were 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:48.960 born on the orchard my family were interned into concentration 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.119 camps across the country and they had to leave. But 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.280 they were lucky that they had a caretaker for the 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.600 land and after the war they had something to come 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.680 home to. A lot of other families in the area 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.040 weren't so lucky. So after my great grandparents and my 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.359 grandma relocated back home. It's a basketpool. That's where my 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:08.920 mom and all my aunties were born and raised on 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.480 the same orchard, still doing the same work that they've 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.640 been doing for decades before. With my family history. Um, 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:19.399 my mom and that generation wanted to get out of 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.400 Apple biz and they were focused on education and moved 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.679 into this city in the suburbs. That's where I grew up. 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:30.720 And after remembering some of this tradition in this history, 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:32.920 my brother and I kind of got interested in this 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.680 idea to start a project out of nothing. You know, 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.960 just kind of felt some sort of special connection to 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:42.560 this history, into this piece of land. And you know, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:44.480 a few years ago we kind of through it out 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:46.680 there and I've gotten a lot of local support here 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:48.680 in Santa Cruz will We're based out of now and 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.520 living and working and connected to the greater Apple community. 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.120 Insider making community, and it's been it's been a wild 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:57.600 ride and a lot of work to do, but we're 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:01.320 really grateful. It's really an incredible legacy that you're tied to, 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:03.680 and the way that you're showing up and honoring it 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:08.480 is super inspiring. Is that property still in your family? Yeah, 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.160 it is. It's in gold Ridge Designation and Silastapol. It's 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:13.960 a lot of apple trees have been ripped out and 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:16.040 a lot of grapes have gone in Peano No War 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.600 especially is really kind of well known for that area. 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.200 It was much larger in the past, but there's seven 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:25.320 acres that remain. Our kids represent the fifth generation that 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:27.639 little piece of dirt. You know, it's definitely something that 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.080 we're inspired by and proud of and trying to share 0:22:31.160 --> 0:22:34.000 stories in our experience here, you know, as a family 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.040 and as just people trying to pull it off. You know, 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:41.040 it's interesting to hear you talk about it in such 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:45.320 matter of fact terms, but it's not just apples. We 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:49.080 also know that around the same time agriculturally, you know, 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:53.520 we have Japanese immigrants to think for the rice culture 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:58.080 of California as well as the potato culture. As you mentioned, 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:02.120 you are now a father, how important is that legacy 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.760 for you in your own household or how much do 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:09.240 you think about, you know, continuing and sharing that agricultural 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:13.119 legacy with your family. Yeah, man, that's a great question. 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.040 I think about that a lot. Our household is multi 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:19.120 ethnic and multicultural. My wife is from England, She's half 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.280 English and half Mauritian. Her family has a really interesting 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:26.280 and amazing history and legacy as well as far as 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:28.960 the Japanese American aspect of it. Yeah. I think when 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:30.760 I kind of learned about all the history, I don't 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.200 know exactly when that happened, I kind of like started 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.240 to strongly identify with kind of those struggles and experiences 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:40.720 that my family and other families, Japanese American families were 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.479 going through, especially post war and then the baby boomers 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:46.520 my parents generation kind of what they were going through. 0:23:47.040 --> 0:23:50.119 And it's interesting because my parents and my aunties they 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:53.320 kind of look at agriculture and even you know, my 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.360 side are making aspirations as being a bit naive, which 0:23:57.400 --> 0:23:59.119 they're probably right. I mean, yeah, they were born and 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.040 raised on this order you not a lot post war, 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:05.879 and their goals were through education and to leave the 0:24:05.920 --> 0:24:09.520 countryside and to power themselves that way. And I'm kind 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:12.040 of going backwards a little bit and trying to remember 0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:14.760 some of that stuff and definitely like share that with 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.520 my kids, but also like without trying to romanticize everything 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.000 too much, you know, trying to share it with them 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:22.960