Speaker 1: Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast about the
Speaker 1: world of food from around the world. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Steven Saderfield. Today's episode, Cider Coast features a very good
Speaker 1: friend of mine, Megan Larmer, who is the director of
Speaker 1: Regional Food at the Glenwood Center for Regional Foods and Farming.
Speaker 1: She holds an anthropology degree from the University of London,
Speaker 1: where her research focused on seed exchange, first generation women
Speaker 1: farmers in food heritage. Megan continues her social science research
Speaker 1: on food and farming as a PhD student at the
Speaker 1: University of Exeter's Center for Rural Policy Research. She has
Speaker 1: a broad range of experience in food and agriculture, including
Speaker 1: ten years as a restaurant professional running one of the
Speaker 1: Midwest largest and most successful farmers markets, and an apprenticeship
Speaker 1: at Bread and Puppet Theater farm. Megan, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us on Point of Origin. It's leisure
Speaker 1: to be here, Stephen, thanks for having me. I have
Speaker 1: had emerging love affair with cider from my time in
Speaker 1: California in the Bay Area, getting to meet the makers
Speaker 1: and also taste the fruits of their labor literally and
Speaker 1: some wonderful ciders from Sebastopol, but on the other side
Speaker 1: of the country in the Hudson Valley. I was not
Speaker 1: aware of how epic and prolific the cider community was
Speaker 1: until I met you. I'd love to know how you
Speaker 1: got involved, or maybe how Glennwood got involved so directly
Speaker 1: an explicitly and wanting to support the cider community in
Speaker 1: the area. So the work around cider predates my time
Speaker 1: at Glenwood, and I was actually got into it by
Speaker 1: a former colleague of mine, Sarah Grady, who nearly ten
Speaker 1: years ago, was looking for inspiration in fulfill england Wood
Speaker 1: mission to support a regional food system and looking for
Speaker 1: that inspiration to other parts of the world that had
Speaker 1: a strong sense of regionality in their their food and
Speaker 1: really tied that food to an agricultural space, into cultural
Speaker 1: resilience in rural communities. And she was inspired by Normandy
Speaker 1: in France, a region that has pretty similar landscape to
Speaker 1: the Hudson Valley, and saw that there was, you know,
Speaker 1: a strong cider making community there and wondered, why was
Speaker 1: the historic apple orchards here in the Hudson Valley, I mean,
Speaker 1: New York is the big Apple of apples states, Why
Speaker 1: there was not this tradition of cider making in our
Speaker 1: own region. She hunted down the small handful of forward
Speaker 1: thinking apple growers and beveridge makers who were working insider,
Speaker 1: and they didn't exchange with the makers there in France.
Speaker 1: Coming back from that, we're hugely inspired to recreate some
Speaker 1: of what they've seen in France, while also recognizing that
Speaker 1: America is a very different place. In New York in
Speaker 1: the Hudson Valley are a very different place. And so
Speaker 1: I had worked to engage with the trade and start
Speaker 1: to build this category of cider, which was pretty much
Speaker 1: unknown at that point in the US. You know, there
Speaker 1: is certainly the history of apples and colonial settlement that
Speaker 1: is strong in in the Northeast. To all the legends
Speaker 1: around Johnny Apple feeds. The Lord is good to me,
Speaker 1: and so I thankful Lar for given me the things
Speaker 1: I need. The sun Menrain I don't know, and others
Speaker 1: who planted these seedling apples not only as a means
Speaker 1: of subsistence survival to have something safe to drink, but
Speaker 1: also as a means of claiming land and clearing the
Speaker 1: land that was by all rights occupied by the indigenous
Speaker 1: peoples of this country. So there's some complicated history in that.
Speaker 1: So the Hudson Valley was a huge apple producer actually
Speaker 1: was shipping apples to England in the colonial period, well
Speaker 1: known and we love for the ambaging apples that were
Speaker 1: produced here and that seedling world, which for folks who
Speaker 1: don't know, apples that produced from seedlings will produce highly
Speaker 1: variable fruits. So these are basically new apples. If you
Speaker 1: want the same apple, you have to do that through
Speaker 1: through grafting and more of a cloning process to these
Speaker 1: seedlings were being grown, like the Newtown Pippin is one
Speaker 1: of our most beloved varieties of apples from Newtown, New York.
Speaker 1: What is what is now part of Queens and these
Speaker 1: apples are gaining a lot of fame now. At the
Speaker 1: same time, cider was considered really a pretty rough country
Speaker 1: drink was used in in presidential campaigns to sort of
Speaker 1: smear candidates to say, you know, they just drank left
Speaker 1: cider while we should be drinking champagne. In the White House.
Speaker 1: The Whig Party, predecessor to the Republicans, decided to nominate
Speaker 1: as their candidate William Henry Harrison, a military hero. Although
Speaker 1: he was raised in a rather aristocratic Virginia family, Harrison
Speaker 1: supporters managed to recast their man as the log cabin
Speaker 1: and hard cider candidate. Out on the campaign trail, Harrison
Speaker 1: would swig hard cider during his stump speeches, and his
Speaker 1: supporters would sing songs to tobacco and punctuate the choruses
Speaker 1: by spitting. There was a lot of ideation around cider
Speaker 1: as being a rural, rustick and particularly of our landscape
Speaker 1: kind of drink, while the aspirations of the upper class
Speaker 1: in the US were looking towards Europe and moving into
Speaker 1: the guilded age, with these ideas of you know, all
Speaker 1: things worth having are coming from the continent rather than
Speaker 1: coming from our own soils here. During Prohibition, cider really
Speaker 1: did not survive well. It was much easier to make
Speaker 1: distilled spirits on the slive and it was to make cider.
Speaker 1: So a lot of the love of those American varietals
Speaker 1: that were specifically for cider making, or crab apples or
Speaker 1: the mini seedlings that you know are called spitters. They're
Speaker 1: not nice to eat, but add incredible qualities to cider.
Speaker 1: Those were visit of went by the wayside, and the
Speaker 1: revival of that practice really has only been in the
Speaker 1: last the last couple of decades on any kind of
Speaker 1: commercial scale. And what I always is interesting to think
Speaker 1: about is there was not really ever a commercial industry
Speaker 1: for cider. So while the cider of today is using
Speaker 1: apples that were discovered, if you will, centuries before ours
Speaker 1: or being brought over from Europe the same way you
Speaker 1: would for wine grapes because they have known value as
Speaker 1: cider apples, the industry of commercial cider sale is something
Speaker 1: entirely new in the United States, and a lot of
Speaker 1: that is thanks to some of the pioneers here in
Speaker 1: the northeastern New York. That is such an excellent point
Speaker 1: this industry as you're describing. Obviously, you can't talk about
Speaker 1: cider without talking about apples, and yet cider as a
Speaker 1: beverage in the consciousness of especially like millennial drinkers, is
Speaker 1: a new thing, and I myself, as a late millennial drinker,
Speaker 1: feel that I see cider more and more in restaurants
Speaker 1: and bars than ever, with variable quality, but it seems
Speaker 1: as though the presence is higher than it's been since
Speaker 1: I can remember. Part of the interesting thing about working
Speaker 1: in cider right now is that it is like a
Speaker 1: new entrant into our thinking about drinks categories. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of internal grappling within the cider community about how
Speaker 1: we define that category because we are working with in
Speaker 1: many ways more sophisticated drinkers, because the education of a
Speaker 1: Aerican drinkers around wine has given them some vocabulary to
Speaker 1: talk about cider, but so to the crafts beer explosion
Speaker 1: has given some vocabulary to talk about cider. And we're
Speaker 1: really trying to find a way to define cider as
Speaker 1: itself rather than as an allegory or a substitute or
Speaker 1: a novelty drink for when you aren't drinking wine or beer.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting to look at and we have that
Speaker 1: kind of diversity, certainly within the Hudson Valley. We have
Speaker 1: producers like Metal House and like Hudson Valley Farmhouse siders
Speaker 1: that are being produced no more or less estate cider's
Speaker 1: bottle condition have really interesting different kinds of notes, very
Speaker 1: dry ciders to a wonderful producer called nine Pin Cider
Speaker 1: in Albany that is producing really great, really like easy drinking,
Speaker 1: casual times cider and it is a huge hit across
Speaker 1: the bars of Albany. Engs between cans of cider too,
Speaker 1: seven fifty four matt two magnums. If you're drinking almost anywhere,
Speaker 1: you're more likely be more cider than you were previously.
Speaker 1: And part of the question is how do we create
Speaker 1: an identity for what cider is is as inclusive as
Speaker 1: possible and still carves out that unique space for it.
Speaker 1: That leads me to my next question, which is how
Speaker 1: does one go about the business of defining a drinking culture. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: for re personally and certainly for Glenwood, are focus is
Speaker 1: that this is an agricultural product. So we got into
Speaker 1: the cider space because we wanted to see the orchards
Speaker 1: that have been here, in the orchards that could be
Speaker 1: here have an opportunity to thrive in the space of
Speaker 1: tremendous pressures for real estate development as well as all
Speaker 1: of the other pressures that go alongside being a farmer
Speaker 1: and the unique pressures of being an orchard that you know,
Speaker 1: you make an investment in these trees and it could
Speaker 1: be seven ten years before you're seeing harvests that can
Speaker 1: can really justify that investment. So we have a strong,
Speaker 1: strong interest and define cider is a truly agricultural product
Speaker 1: and really centering the apple as the key element of ciders,
Speaker 1: that if you are working with lower quality apple, then
Speaker 1: I I don't think it's possible to make a really
Speaker 1: nice cider, and I think that we have plenty of
Speaker 1: examples of that and other fermented drinks. So to me,
Speaker 1: like the defining thing, ciders are made from apples, and
Speaker 1: that sounds really basic, but there's plenty of market research
Speaker 1: to show that that's not a commonly understood concept in
Speaker 1: the general public, and there's been plenty of efforts to
Speaker 1: obfuscate that, and in some ways a lining cider with
Speaker 1: beer does some of that obfuscating. So a lot of
Speaker 1: the education we do is, you know, this is a
Speaker 1: product made from fruit, made from the juice of this fruit.
Speaker 1: Fermented juice is what cider is, and what that fruit
Speaker 1: is really matters to the quality of it. So that's
Speaker 1: part of the education we try to do. Beyond that,
Speaker 1: building a culture around a drink is slower and in
Speaker 1: some ways even more fun than just the education marketing part,
Speaker 1: because it means giving people that personal experience of seeing
Speaker 1: what the landscape is that the cider is coming from,
Speaker 1: seeing the faces and the people and the stories and
Speaker 1: the families and communities that are making that cider and
Speaker 1: giving giving them a chance to really experience it sort
Speaker 1: of as their own. So to that end, Glennwood founded
Speaker 1: Cider Week in New York City, which it has now
Speaker 1: evolved into cyder Rick Hudson Valley, a cyder Rican, the
Speaker 1: Finger Lakes, and the Cider Rican Western New York, all
Speaker 1: of which are now organized and led by the New
Speaker 1: York Cider Association, which is a statewide trade association that
Speaker 1: that Glenwood founded as well and is now operating independently
Speaker 1: to really serve the growers and makers of the state.
Speaker 1: I remember one story in particular of a I think
Speaker 1: it was a bunch of condos that we're going to
Speaker 1: be built over some really old apple orchards. But you all, obviously,
Speaker 1: with the support of the local farmers, were able to
Speaker 1: band together and save the orchards. Can you talk about
Speaker 1: that story where that was happening and how that came
Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, So that's on a farm just up
Speaker 1: up the road from us here in Hopewell Junction. It's
Speaker 1: called Fishkill Farms. The farmer there, Josh Morgan fow Is,
Speaker 1: you know, in his early thirties, came back to farming
Speaker 1: after going to art school. He saw the land that
Speaker 1: his grandfather had carefully tended being portioned off to real
Speaker 1: estate development too, condos, And you know, this speaks to
Speaker 1: the fact that the Hudson Valley in general, making a
Speaker 1: living here as a farmer has historically always been incredibly difficult,
Speaker 1: but particularly with the growth of the city and the
Speaker 1: outmigration of folks who wanted to be living on one
Speaker 1: acre properties rather than the fifteen twenty several hundred acre
Speaker 1: farms that were here, saw that land being portioned out
Speaker 1: and sold off and really came back to the land
Speaker 1: with a strong desire to keep it whole. So fishkill
Speaker 1: farms is as you pick farm. That's been one of
Speaker 1: the really key innovations and strategies in keeping fruit farms
Speaker 1: going in the Hudson Valley, so opening up to a
Speaker 1: sort of agro tourism world. But when he saw that
Speaker 1: the land that was no longer no longer part of
Speaker 1: their family farm was about to be sold off for condos,
Speaker 1: and that orchard land torn up, those trees torn up,
Speaker 1: we helped to coordinate with him and with land Trust
Speaker 1: here in the Hudson Valley to preserve that land for
Speaker 1: agricultural usage, and they have since that been putting in
Speaker 1: more and more cider varietals, opening up that land to
Speaker 1: cider production. Josh is a really wonderful innovative thinker. He
Speaker 1: has put a cider works on site, He's opened a
Speaker 1: cider bar to add to the agri tourism aspects, and
Speaker 1: they're also growing diversified vegetables and just doing a beautiful
Speaker 1: job of really activating that space as an agricultural space
Speaker 1: that is both productive and it's helping to tell the
Speaker 1: story to a wider audience of the importance of those spaces. Brilliant.
Speaker 1: You really nailed it with kind of what's required on
Speaker 1: the end of the farmer, for better for worse in
Speaker 1: terms of economic viability and sustainability. But I am particularly
Speaker 1: interested when programs or food and beverages can recenter thinking
Speaker 1: and conversations around agriculture because that disconnect is really so
Speaker 1: vast for many consumers that I'm just really grateful for
Speaker 1: your work. And if we wanted to drink some ciders,
Speaker 1: I know that you don't want to exclude anyone um
Speaker 1: from the Hudson Valley. I wouldn't ask you to do that.
Speaker 1: But maybe give us some uh some notable ones for
Speaker 1: their character, for their story. Sure well. So one of
Speaker 1: the really cool things that is happening now is that
Speaker 1: more and more cideries up here are opening tasting rooms
Speaker 1: in the Hudson Valley, and I think that is just
Speaker 1: such a wonderful used to bring out into the landscape
Speaker 1: and also to try a bunch of different fighters. I
Speaker 1: had to name some of my favorite tasting rooms to
Speaker 1: taste cider in. Certainly Fishkill Farms and their Treasury Cider
Speaker 1: and their ciders are really nice and each has a
Speaker 1: particular history to that place and the fruit that they're producing.
Speaker 1: I'd also definitely recommend Orchard Hill Ciders again multi generational
Speaker 1: family farm on Stons Farm and the orchard and Jeff Suns,
Speaker 1: the current orchard iss too there, has a deep love
Speaker 1: for architecture and has built an absolutely beautiful tasting room
Speaker 1: that draws on the architecture of other historic cider regions.
Speaker 1: If you're in the city, step into Gramercy Tavern. They
Speaker 1: have an un paralleled cider lists on their their drinks
Speaker 1: menu buy the glass. You can really walk through some
Speaker 1: of the greatest ciders being produced in the state. With
Speaker 1: really knowledgeable staff, so I'd recommend albows and yeah, if
Speaker 1: you're looking for a more casual time, Brooklyn Cider House
Speaker 1: has a great spot in Brooklyn to enjoy enjoy their site,
Speaker 1: DS and some barbecues and music. So, Megan, I appreciate
Speaker 1: you swinging by today to talk to us about cider
Speaker 1: and joining us on point of origin. Thank you, Stephen,
Speaker 1: have a great day. Thanks you too. That was Megan Larmer,
Speaker 1: the director of Regional Foods at the Glenwood Center for
Speaker 1: Regional Foods and Farming. The Lord is good to me,
Speaker 1: and so I thankful Lord for giving me the things
Speaker 1: I need, the sun and rain and at sea. Yes,
Speaker 1: Ease's been good to me. I waked up every day
Speaker 1: as happy as can be because I know the green
Speaker 1: of this hare, my apple trees, they was to be
Speaker 1: there all the Lord good to me. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: point of origin today. Cider Coast to Coast and representing
Speaker 1: the West Coast. A really cool dude, someone that I
Speaker 1: like very much, an old friend of mine who has
Speaker 1: been making cider in Santa Cruz or just outside of
Speaker 1: Santa Cruz for the last couple of years. This company
Speaker 1: is Tanuki Cider and We're very pleased to have Robbie
Speaker 1: Honda Cider Maker joining us today. UM point of origin.
Speaker 1: Thanks Robbie and Man, thank you so much. I kind
Speaker 1: of mentioned to you that I have been theorizing about
Speaker 1: the rise of cider as I'm starting to see more
Speaker 1: small growers on restaurant list and bars when I'm out
Speaker 1: and about in the world. But before we start to
Speaker 1: talk about cider at large, I wanted to talk to
Speaker 1: you about how you got into the business of making cider. Sure,
Speaker 1: let me see. So, I think the main inspiration came
Speaker 1: from some family history. My mom grew up in western
Speaker 1: Sunoma County in the town called Sabastopool, on the apple
Speaker 1: orchard that my great grandfather planted almost a hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: My grandmother was born and raised on this orchard, as
Speaker 1: well as my mom and my five aunties and some
Speaker 1: of their cousins. And my brother and I grew up
Speaker 1: down south in Orange County outside l A, southern California,
Speaker 1: but we'd spend all summers and you know, holidays, traveling
Speaker 1: up to the orchard to go visit family in Sabastopool. So,
Speaker 1: I mean some of my fondest, earliest memories are outside
Speaker 1: of suburbia. Were runt of the apple orchards of my
Speaker 1: cousins and cruising around throwing rotten apples at each other
Speaker 1: and eating fresh apples through in the fall. Did it
Speaker 1: hurt to get hit with a rotten apple? Or is
Speaker 1: it just annoying a dude? It's stinky, but it was
Speaker 1: really fun, you know, super novel. We'd go up during
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving sometimes, you know, and that's pretty much post harvest.
Speaker 1: Things are wrapping up up in Sabastopol and there's a
Speaker 1: bunch of rotten apples on the ground that people haven't
Speaker 1: cleaned up, and the animals running through. So my brother
Speaker 1: and my cousins you throw on our country clothes and
Speaker 1: go out on the orchard and run around and smash
Speaker 1: each other with apples. That was really funny. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: it's cool that you are still connected to that extremely
Speaker 1: long legacy. I didn't realize your family went back so
Speaker 1: far in Sebastopol. And for people who are not familiar
Speaker 1: with Sebastopol, can you say a little bit about their history? Again,
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, it's in Sonoma County, northern California, but
Speaker 1: can you say a little bit about the history of
Speaker 1: cider and Sebastopol in particular. Yeah, I mean, before Sonoma
Speaker 1: County and Napa Valley were known as as grape country
Speaker 1: wine country, they were definitely apple country, especially western Sunama
Speaker 1: County where Sebastopol is located clu to the Russian River,
Speaker 1: it gets a lot of that coastal dog similar to
Speaker 1: where I'm at now in the central coast in Santa Cruz.
Speaker 1: You know, there was a long history and tradition of
Speaker 1: of apple growing in Sebastopool. Specifically, my great grandfather came
Speaker 1: from Japan in the early nineteen hundreds to San Francisco.
Speaker 1: The earthquake happened, and he ended up in the countryside
Speaker 1: in Sebastopool as doing my grant apple labor. Back then,
Speaker 1: industry was booming. There were tons of packing houses, dryers, juicers,
Speaker 1: apple sauce. I mean, there was a huge industry of
Speaker 1: apples going on in the early nineteen hundreds. My family
Speaker 1: was a part of that. Like a lot of other
Speaker 1: people in the area. Agriculture was big, and apples was
Speaker 1: huge for my family. A lot of things changed during
Speaker 1: World War Two. My grandmother and my great Auntie were
Speaker 1: born on the orchard my family were interned into concentration
Speaker 1: camps across the country and they had to leave. But
Speaker 1: they were lucky that they had a caretaker for the
Speaker 1: land and after the war they had something to come
Speaker 1: home to. A lot of other families in the area
Speaker 1: weren't so lucky. So after my great grandparents and my
Speaker 1: grandma relocated back home. It's a basketpool. That's where my
Speaker 1: mom and all my aunties were born and raised on
Speaker 1: the same orchard, still doing the same work that they've
Speaker 1: been doing for decades before. With my family history. Um,
Speaker 1: my mom and that generation wanted to get out of
Speaker 1: Apple biz and they were focused on education and moved
Speaker 1: into this city in the suburbs. That's where I grew up.
Speaker 1: And after remembering some of this tradition in this history,
Speaker 1: my brother and I kind of got interested in this
Speaker 1: idea to start a project out of nothing. You know,
Speaker 1: just kind of felt some sort of special connection to
Speaker 1: this history, into this piece of land. And you know,
Speaker 1: a few years ago we kind of through it out
Speaker 1: there and I've gotten a lot of local support here
Speaker 1: in Santa Cruz will We're based out of now and
Speaker 1: living and working and connected to the greater Apple community.
Speaker 1: Insider making community, and it's been it's been a wild
Speaker 1: ride and a lot of work to do, but we're
Speaker 1: really grateful. It's really an incredible legacy that you're tied to,
Speaker 1: and the way that you're showing up and honoring it
Speaker 1: is super inspiring. Is that property still in your family? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. It's in gold Ridge Designation and Silastapol. It's
Speaker 1: a lot of apple trees have been ripped out and
Speaker 1: a lot of grapes have gone in Peano No War
Speaker 1: especially is really kind of well known for that area.
Speaker 1: It was much larger in the past, but there's seven
Speaker 1: acres that remain. Our kids represent the fifth generation that
Speaker 1: little piece of dirt. You know, it's definitely something that
Speaker 1: we're inspired by and proud of and trying to share
Speaker 1: stories in our experience here, you know, as a family
Speaker 1: and as just people trying to pull it off. You know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting to hear you talk about it in such
Speaker 1: matter of fact terms, but it's not just apples. We
Speaker 1: also know that around the same time agriculturally, you know,
Speaker 1: we have Japanese immigrants to think for the rice culture
Speaker 1: of California as well as the potato culture. As you mentioned,
Speaker 1: you are now a father, how important is that legacy
Speaker 1: for you in your own household or how much do
Speaker 1: you think about, you know, continuing and sharing that agricultural
Speaker 1: legacy with your family. Yeah, man, that's a great question.
Speaker 1: I think about that a lot. Our household is multi
Speaker 1: ethnic and multicultural. My wife is from England, She's half
Speaker 1: English and half Mauritian. Her family has a really interesting
Speaker 1: and amazing history and legacy as well as far as
Speaker 1: the Japanese American aspect of it. Yeah. I think when
Speaker 1: I kind of learned about all the history, I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly when that happened, I kind of like started
Speaker 1: to strongly identify with kind of those struggles and experiences
Speaker 1: that my family and other families, Japanese American families were
Speaker 1: going through, especially post war and then the baby boomers
Speaker 1: my parents generation kind of what they were going through.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because my parents and my aunties they
Speaker 1: kind of look at agriculture and even you know, my
Speaker 1: side are making aspirations as being a bit naive, which
Speaker 1: they're probably right. I mean, yeah, they were born and
Speaker 1: raised on this order you not a lot post war,
Speaker 1: and their goals were through education and to leave the
Speaker 1: countryside and to power themselves that way. And I'm kind
Speaker 1: of going backwards a little bit and trying to remember
Speaker 1: some of that stuff and definitely like share that with
Speaker 1: my kids, but also like without trying to romanticize everything
Speaker 1: too much, you know, trying to share it with them
Speaker 1: and then just I don't know, like kind of create
Speaker 1: a new chapter in this experience and decided projects is
Speaker 1: a really amazing creative way for us to do that too,
Speaker 1: connect to community. It's been really cool to do that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that is so often the case for children of
Speaker 1: immigrants or children really of most marginalized groups whose ancestors
Speaker 1: have had to struggle for equality, have had to struggle
Speaker 1: for access into the workplace, for equal employment, and it
Speaker 1: can be really disorienting for the old heads when the
Speaker 1: youth says, actually, I want to go back to the
Speaker 1: land and reclaim this part of our identity. So I'm
Speaker 1: super familiar with that tension that you speak of. So
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you now about this community
Speaker 1: that we're referring back to. When did you start, Tanuki
Speaker 1: Timiki started in two thousand fifteen. How have you seen
Speaker 1: that community change and grow over in the last four
Speaker 1: or five years there were no cider businesses in Santa
Speaker 1: Cruz County specifically, and now seven years later, they think
Speaker 1: there are six of us, you know. I think the
Speaker 1: first one was with Santa Crustider Company two thousand thirteen,
Speaker 1: and who we've become really close to. We've collaborated on
Speaker 1: a lot of projects. We're helping each other out. We
Speaker 1: actually just bought a grinder and a crest together that
Speaker 1: we're hosting, but hosted by our apple grower in Cornidos
Speaker 1: in Watsonville. So there's a strong community. But yeah, since
Speaker 1: we've been involved, it's grown a lot. When we had
Speaker 1: our first release in two thousand fifteen, we were kind
Speaker 1: of hitting the road and streets trying to promote and
Speaker 1: sell this one package product that we had, and there
Speaker 1: weren't very many cider options on drink lists and menus.
Speaker 1: I kind of came into this cider world from working
Speaker 1: on a farm in Santa Cruz and Socil and work
Speaker 1: in the farmers markets. We did Pasture's Meats and had
Speaker 1: a c s A and worked with a lot of
Speaker 1: local restaurants in Santa Cruz County, so I had most
Speaker 1: of my connections were in the food world, so that's
Speaker 1: kind of where I was reaching out to first. Opposed
Speaker 1: to like markets or liquor stores, it was to the
Speaker 1: restaurants and trying to focus on pairing cider with food
Speaker 1: as are kind of like angle. And also it's being
Speaker 1: like a local product. That's kind of most of the
Speaker 1: credibility that we had coming out was the fog Line
Speaker 1: connection and us being like a small local business and
Speaker 1: we've gotten a lot of support locally. Man, it means
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, I don't have a background and
Speaker 1: viticulture or analogy. You know, I didn't come from an
Speaker 1: elite whine making background or anything. You know, kind of
Speaker 1: came im a more fantasy world of this family history
Speaker 1: and working on a farm and experimenting with tormentation on
Speaker 1: a really simple, kind of minimal intervention level, let fruit speak,
Speaker 1: trying to you know, get the best source fruit available
Speaker 1: at the time and allowed it to do its things,
Speaker 1: get out of the way and doing small batches. And
Speaker 1: that's kind of like where we're Our whole identity has
Speaker 1: been like focused towards Yeah, definitely, I kind of love
Speaker 1: that you have come to this industry with all heart,
Speaker 1: so coming into that that industry knowing I don't want
Speaker 1: to say very little, but maybe not as just prepared
Speaker 1: as people who had that formal education. What were some
Speaker 1: of the challenges that you experienced in making that transition
Speaker 1: and what have you learned? Yeah, one of the one
Speaker 1: of the more interesting things right after that was that
Speaker 1: there weren't a lot of references to to cider. You know,
Speaker 1: so when I was going around trying to talk about
Speaker 1: what we were doing and how to promote our products
Speaker 1: and share it, there wasn't a model of the knowledge
Speaker 1: and baseline for you know, bar managers owners to reference
Speaker 1: far as what cider was and is we are making, like,
Speaker 1: you know, a dry what we call farmhouse style ciders.
Speaker 1: I think that you know, even five years ago, there
Speaker 1: wasn't a ton of commercially available siders that had some
Speaker 1: of the characteristics that we were going for. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people, originally um and still to this day,
Speaker 1: to be honest, you know, associate cider with being really
Speaker 1: sweet in carbonated, and so when we're trying to share
Speaker 1: our ciders and that has a completely different flavor profile.
Speaker 1: I think it was especially you know, back in two
Speaker 1: thousands fifteen, really surprising to people. They weren't expecting it,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a big demand for this, like
Speaker 1: this specific beverage in our style up there, you know,
Speaker 1: m hm. And can you explain in a little bit
Speaker 1: more detail, because I know that farmhouse cider is a
Speaker 1: thing that we see on many different bottles, but what
Speaker 1: does that actually mean if we if we see a
Speaker 1: farmhouse cider. Yeah, kind of blanket term. And I'm you know,
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out how to describe and lebel
Speaker 1: these products to where they have some meeting, you know.
Speaker 1: I think the farmhouse term is similar to like a
Speaker 1: natural wine type of term. I think the farmhouse term
Speaker 1: comes from England and it refers to a style of
Speaker 1: production which generally, but not always, but most generally it
Speaker 1: refers to native and wild fermentation with yeast, unfiltered and
Speaker 1: unpasteurized alive, minimal intervention and you know, kind of like
Speaker 1: minimal and you know ours was bottle conditioned as well.
Speaker 1: So I think that when someone's going to claim that
Speaker 1: farmhouse terms, you can assume that some or most of
Speaker 1: that or all of it is involved. But like I said,
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty maybe weak. Um. We just started a
Speaker 1: native and while fermentation program last fall two thousand, nineteen
Speaker 1: and up until then, you know, all of our siders
Speaker 1: were unfiltered, unpasteurized, bottle or can conditioned. But we did
Speaker 1: inoculate with the yeast, like I said, up until last year.
Speaker 1: So when we put farmhouse our labels, they weren't native
Speaker 1: and well fermented. We did inoculate. But so that's where
Speaker 1: it's kind of like tricky maybe. And the apples that
Speaker 1: you are using for these spontaneous fermentations, what are some
Speaker 1: of the different varieties of apples that you all are
Speaker 1: working with. Yeah, so we're in Santa Cruise County. We
Speaker 1: live in Capitola, and we are really close to Watkinville,
Speaker 1: which has a similar history to Sebastopol. The industry here
Speaker 1: in Santa Cruise County has been afloat because of a
Speaker 1: big juice company that is in our backyard in Watsonville here.
Speaker 1: A lot of the apple growers that still exist in
Speaker 1: Santa Cruise County have been growing for this company for
Speaker 1: a long time, and we we're lucky that that industry
Speaker 1: still existed because I mean there's still apple trees around,
Speaker 1: you know. So the varieties that we're using are kind
Speaker 1: of a legacy of of these big dispect juice company
Speaker 1: that's like a lot to survive and thrive. The Newtown
Speaker 1: Pippin is the kind of Pato Valley apple, or we've
Speaker 1: claimed it, it's actually from New York. There's been some
Speaker 1: really cool like tear washed studies on this specific apple
Speaker 1: variety of the new Town Pippin where they took this
Speaker 1: one variety and had different siders made from it from
Speaker 1: New York to Michigan, Southern California, Sonoma County in Santa
Speaker 1: Cruz and it's pretty fascinating. So we're lucky that the
Speaker 1: Newtown Pippin is established here in this area and we're
Speaker 1: looking for standard stock old trees that are dry farmed
Speaker 1: and organic ideally for what we're going for in our cider.
Speaker 1: So do you ever have a chance to use I mean,
Speaker 1: I know logistically moving around a bunch of fruit up
Speaker 1: and down the coast is complicated, But do you ever
Speaker 1: have a chance to use some of the fruit from
Speaker 1: Sebastopol and the ciders? Yeah, no, I haven't yet. That's
Speaker 1: something that we were working on. We'd love to collaborate.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of friends in Sonoma County that
Speaker 1: makes cider and their apple growers and it's something that
Speaker 1: we're hoping to do here to. I was in nineteen harvest,
Speaker 1: like in Sebastopol, we were talking about part of that
Speaker 1: legacy agriculturally being undermined or under threat with the growth
Speaker 1: of Sonoma County as a wine destination, which has really
Speaker 1: been underway for you know, many decades and still continues
Speaker 1: to this day. I know that that's a big concern
Speaker 1: in Sebastopol, the kind of preserving the legacy of these orchards.
Speaker 1: What about the fruit source closer to where you are
Speaker 1: in Capitola, are there similar concerns about the supply or
Speaker 1: viability of these old orchards. Of course, yeah, you know
Speaker 1: where we're at, specifically with the fruit that we're sourcing,
Speaker 1: mostly in cor Leos and Watsonville. It hasn't been so
Speaker 1: much the grape industry, although the grape industry is alive
Speaker 1: and thriving big time, but mostly in the mountains here
Speaker 1: in Santa Cruz County. But it's the very industry. So
Speaker 1: a lot of these old orchards are feeling out of
Speaker 1: pressure or have samethings like you're talking about for decades
Speaker 1: with berries coming in so ripping out these old orchards
Speaker 1: that have been established, you know for decades up two
Speaker 1: years old, you know, ripped out and planting berries. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a similar kind of like renaissance happening here in Watsonville.
Speaker 1: We're trying to rehabilitate and revive the apple industry. Cider
Speaker 1: is a way to do it. We're able to like
Speaker 1: diversify some of the income that these apple growers have
Speaker 1: traditionally been used to, which is kind of like been
Speaker 1: monopolized by one way that to sell a product totally.
Speaker 1: And are people starting to think differently about the role
Speaker 1: of these berry farms, which are presumably owned by very
Speaker 1: large multinational food companies. Are some of the formers starting
Speaker 1: to think differently about preserving these orchards because you all
Speaker 1: have created a new, higher value added product. Or is
Speaker 1: it still that cider is so small compared to the
Speaker 1: economics of these large scale agricultural outfits that it's still
Speaker 1: not really like a viable thing to try to hold
Speaker 1: onto the orchards. Yeah, that's the that's the question as
Speaker 1: far as I understand me, Just the price of apples
Speaker 1: is just so low, it's unfairly low, you know, opposed
Speaker 1: to the price of berries amount of money you can
Speaker 1: make off of an acre of berries and an amount
Speaker 1: of money you can make off of acre of apples
Speaker 1: is you can't even compare it, you know. So I
Speaker 1: do empathize with these families, especially the older ones that
Speaker 1: have been around here trying to figure out how to
Speaker 1: pull it off, you know. So, yeah, it's it's our
Speaker 1: mission trying to figure out how we can keep these
Speaker 1: old orchards around, because you know, once you rip out
Speaker 1: an orchard that's been standing for decades, up to a
Speaker 1: hundred years. I mean, obviously, the quality of that fruits
Speaker 1: can be completely different than an orchard planted two years ago,
Speaker 1: you know, getting fruit in five years. You know. So
Speaker 1: there's a huge value in these orchards, and how do
Speaker 1: we save them? You know, that's the question. And in
Speaker 1: our small way, we're trying to you know, empower the
Speaker 1: growers a little bit by offer them a better price
Speaker 1: for their fruit, you know, and and highlighting this area
Speaker 1: and this growing industry as something of value for people
Speaker 1: to come to, to support, to check out, to walk
Speaker 1: through the orchards, to try the cider, you know, take
Speaker 1: the tail of this area to you know, share these
Speaker 1: stories and hopefully it will it will help post to
Speaker 1: the opposite. Yeah, well we we also as consumers need
Speaker 1: to help you out by a drinking more cider, which
Speaker 1: is an easy ask really right. So um, last question
Speaker 1: for you is just around the viability of your work.
Speaker 1: You know, I what you're doing is not just important
Speaker 1: because of the delicious value added product, but I certainly
Speaker 1: look at your work this way, which is as a preservationist,
Speaker 1: you know, not only in your own family, but in
Speaker 1: creating new possibilities for the existence of these orchards. But
Speaker 1: what about you, yourself and Tanuki. Are you feeling positive
Speaker 1: or hopeful about your long term viability in this work
Speaker 1: or is it too early to say yeah, no, thanks?
Speaker 1: So we're definitely excited. Yeah, like you mentioned, you know
Speaker 1: me us having a young family here in Santa Cruz,
Speaker 1: we are trying to pull it off in this town
Speaker 1: and we get a lot of support locally, and it
Speaker 1: means a lot Our style of side are making Maybe
Speaker 1: is just I don't know how common it is. I've
Speaker 1: met of a few people that are kind of in
Speaker 1: our position, but we don't have our own production facility
Speaker 1: or tasting room. We've worked with like a handful of
Speaker 1: different wineries that have helped us produce our ciders, were
Speaker 1: renting take space over here in Sotel and over here
Speaker 1: on the West side. And so our goals now are
Speaker 1: to find at home, set up shop, get our equipment,
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe set up a little tasting room.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of examples here, mostly in the
Speaker 1: wine industry in Santa Cuse County that we admire and
Speaker 1: our big inspiration for us. They've been able to keep
Speaker 1: things small and independent. And you know, there's a couple
Speaker 1: wineries in Santa Curies that I can think of specifically
Speaker 1: that do their production, that have a tasting room under
Speaker 1: three thousand square foot facilities and they do the business
Speaker 1: through their front door, and even more, you know, with
Speaker 1: a handful of wholesale accounts, and that's something that we
Speaker 1: are trying to do. I think that if we could
Speaker 1: go retail and still self distribute wholesale and offer our
Speaker 1: products to our community, that's kind of like where we're at,
Speaker 1: and I do feel hopeful, yeah, looking forward to like
Speaker 1: what happens next. Yeah, that is definitely the move. You know,
Speaker 1: every day that you have an opportunity to keep doing
Speaker 1: this work is a day that you're you're winning, So
Speaker 1: congrats to you for the last four years and what
Speaker 1: you've built and where can people buy your cider so
Speaker 1: that we can facilitate you getting that tasting room. So
Speaker 1: about nine of our businesses in Santa Cruise County. Anyone's
Speaker 1: familiar with with Santa Cruz the usual suspects or places
Speaker 1: that you can sign outsiders, So you gotta come to
Speaker 1: Santa Cruz. That's the moral story. Hey, you know what
Speaker 1: it's It's alive. It's a living product, so that will
Speaker 1: preserve its integrity. So in Santa cra is a lovely
Speaker 1: place to visit. This has been a lovely conversation with
Speaker 1: Robbie Honda, who is the founder of Tanuki Cider, continuing
Speaker 1: a one hundred year legacy and his family making cider
Speaker 1: and working with apples, really really good stuff. Thanks a
Speaker 1: lot for joining us today on Point of Origin. Thank you,
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Welcome back to Point of Origin today
Speaker 1: Cider Coast to Coast and I am in Oakland, California
Speaker 1: with Olivia Mackie and Mike Reas of Redfield Cider and
Speaker 1: we are going to talk aboutsider. So thanks for hosting
Speaker 1: me in your shop before opening thanks for being here,
Speaker 1: and we apologize in advance if any deliveries happen. This
Speaker 1: is a working space. Well hopefully you guys get some
Speaker 1: deliveries because that means you're turning over the inventory, which
Speaker 1: is good issues turning over inventory since we opened. So
Speaker 1: you guys opened eight months ago. And has that fast
Speaker 1: toneover been the case from the beginning or is that
Speaker 1: a new thing actually been um when we When we
Speaker 1: first opened, we had no idea really how the business
Speaker 1: would received. There weren't any other cider bars in the
Speaker 1: area that we could point to and say this is
Speaker 1: our model and this is going to work. We actually
Speaker 1: looked at a lot of different wine and beer bars
Speaker 1: to sort of figure out, you know, if that same
Speaker 1: systems in place would work for this space itself. And
Speaker 1: we've been pleasantly surprised. It's been a pretty popular joint
Speaker 1: since we opened. So when you wanted to open, you
Speaker 1: guys were looking at like wine bars or small breweries
Speaker 1: as examples of kind of the vibe you wanted to establish. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think anything that felt like it fit within the
Speaker 1: neighborhood itself and had a sense of place was important
Speaker 1: to us. We intentionally designed red fields actually be pretty small.
Speaker 1: We have about twenty five seats, and that was really
Speaker 1: set up to to create an intimate space so as
Speaker 1: soon as someone walked in, Mike and I would be
Speaker 1: able to greet them, make eye contact, and really provide
Speaker 1: excellent customer service. Yeah, we knew, you know, cider bar
Speaker 1: was going to be a new concept for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. And so while there are you know, a
Speaker 1: couple of cider bars are there were a couple of
Speaker 1: cider bars in the Bay Area. When we opened a
Speaker 1: couple of really cool cider bars, we also kind of knew,
Speaker 1: you know, if we want to be a place where
Speaker 1: people are gonna be comfortable coming into try cider for
Speaker 1: the first time, it had to be a really cool
Speaker 1: and welcoming space beyond just a place that has a
Speaker 1: bunch of ciders. Um. So yeah, we were definitely like
Speaker 1: looking at our favorite beer bars, a favorite wine bars
Speaker 1: and seeing like what worked there and trying to bring
Speaker 1: some of that in. So let's talk about your origins, insider.
Speaker 1: How did you all get to the point where you
Speaker 1: wanted to dedicate your entire life to selling and drinking cider. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, Mike and I have been in the food
Speaker 1: and beverage industry for the past ten years. My background
Speaker 1: is actually more in agriculture and in food, and Mike's
Speaker 1: definitely been working in the beer industry for a long
Speaker 1: long time. And we started drinking cider probably like six
Speaker 1: or seven years ago. I before I met Mike, I
Speaker 1: had never really thought about cider. I spent much time
Speaker 1: trying it at all. And we tried some tilted shed
Speaker 1: cider up in Cinnoma County and I just remember tasting
Speaker 1: it and being like, I didn't know cider could taste
Speaker 1: like this, This is delicious, and um, you know, Tilda
Speaker 1: Sheds ciders have a ton of tannin. They have a
Speaker 1: lot of character, you know, really beautiful like floral notes.
Speaker 1: And I just remember being like, oh, this is kind
Speaker 1: of like wine, Like I'm drinking this and I'm enjoying
Speaker 1: this like wine. And then I learned more about, you know,
Speaker 1: how they're growing the apples and the thought and care
Speaker 1: that they put into making all of their ciders, and
Speaker 1: was just blown away. And then I had this moment
Speaker 1: where I was like, why doesn't everybody know about this?
Speaker 1: Like why aren't we not drinking this? Why is it
Speaker 1: not on all of the menus, and over time made
Speaker 1: more and more sighter ourselves just in our backyard, got
Speaker 1: to know more and more cider, cider producers and apple growers,
Speaker 1: and kind of just fell in love with the beverage
Speaker 1: and spawned into well, there's like no place to drink
Speaker 1: cider and like learn about it, and you know, given
Speaker 1: our backgrounds, maybe maybe we should do it. Are we
Speaker 1: crazy enough to start our own business? Yeah. I first
Speaker 1: got into cider as a beverage program director at a
Speaker 1: really beer folk a spot in San Francisco, and we
Speaker 1: definitely like started having people ask about cider and I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know anything about this. Um. This
Speaker 1: was like twenty eleven, probably somewhere around there, and there
Speaker 1: was certainly a lot of cool stuff happening insider at
Speaker 1: that point, but I was not aware of it. So
Speaker 1: that was when I started seeking out more and more stuff,
Speaker 1: and me and Live started drinking it and making it ourselves,
Speaker 1: and I kind of got to the point where I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I want to be able to buy
Speaker 1: more cool stuff. I'm hearing about all this great stuff
Speaker 1: and the Pacific Northwest and all this great stuff in
Speaker 1: the Northeast, So I don't have access to as like
Speaker 1: a buyer for a restaurant, and that led to me
Speaker 1: going and working at a wholesaler and like trying to
Speaker 1: bring in a bunch of cool producers and then like
Speaker 1: getting frustrated with trying to sell it to retailers that
Speaker 1: didn't care about it, and so then like it was like,
Speaker 1: all right, well, we're just gonna have to open the
Speaker 1: shop ourselves. Well, so that timeline kind of checks out
Speaker 1: for me as a cider lover in terms of seeing
Speaker 1: new ciders in the marketplace and having a similar experience,
Speaker 1: illuminating experience that was more evocative of like line. So
Speaker 1: we're now talking let's say, like maybe seven eight years
Speaker 1: or so. It's not like their cider bars, you know,
Speaker 1: on every corner or anything like that. But you guys
Speaker 1: both kind of had a specific marketion of when you
Speaker 1: saw this trend, both in your own lives and an
Speaker 1: opportunity maybe more commercially. So what have you observed over
Speaker 1: the course of the last half decade or so to
Speaker 1: either support those ideas that you had in the early
Speaker 1: days or maybe kind of our running counter to some
Speaker 1: of the assumptions that you were making about where the
Speaker 1: industry would be at this point. I think that's such
Speaker 1: a such an important question to ask because something that
Speaker 1: Mike and I say a lot is I don't even
Speaker 1: think this business would have worked three years ago. And
Speaker 1: we've been talking and thinking about this probably for like
Speaker 1: three or four years, and timing was such a huge
Speaker 1: part of that of when do we think that specifically
Speaker 1: the Bay Area would be ready for a space like
Speaker 1: this and be open to trying it. And we do
Speaker 1: think that, like we were pretty spot on with with
Speaker 1: the opening. Speaking of timing, then you guys are really
Speaker 1: well time because if you like a good underdog story,
Speaker 1: this is the moment, right And if we look at
Speaker 1: microbrewers preceding cider maybe ten fifteen years ago as the underdogs,
Speaker 1: it's not maybe so great, you know, the direction of
Speaker 1: those microbrewers in terms of consolidations and acquisitions and more crowded,
Speaker 1: if and not necessarily better marketplace. So are you guys
Speaker 1: and other your cider colleagues looking at some of the
Speaker 1: perils of the craft beer movement as what not to do?
Speaker 1: Are you guys not thinking about it in those terms?
Speaker 1: I think we're constantly looking at the wine and beer
Speaker 1: industry and making comparisons. We do think that cider is
Speaker 1: its own thing, but there are a lot of parallels
Speaker 1: that you can draw from from both. And in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, trends that we could skip over, I think
Speaker 1: we could really look at the beer industry and just
Speaker 1: completely pass over all of like this excess beer labels,
Speaker 1: Like I'd be totally okay with that. Take note cider industry.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean in terms of growth, there are
Speaker 1: some parallels of like if you look at some of
Speaker 1: the like Nielsen data around the growth in the cider industry,
Speaker 1: especially among small producers, it's really exciting to see. But
Speaker 1: we just don't quite have the sales data that a
Speaker 1: lot of the beer and wine industry do because oftentimes,
Speaker 1: if you look at those data sets, citers like a
Speaker 1: subcategory of beer, even though it's not beer at all,
Speaker 1: it's it's technically wine, So it's it's hard to kind
Speaker 1: of like dig into those numbers. I think in the
Speaker 1: same way, Well, let's talk about natural wine specifically. I
Speaker 1: mean we've mentioned wine. Are there elements of the comparisons
Speaker 1: or the observations that you're taking from the wine industry
Speaker 1: that are is it broad base or are you looking
Speaker 1: at natural wine as a category as a place to
Speaker 1: also take some lessons from. I mean, there is a huge,
Speaker 1: a huge supporter of Redfield has been the natural wine industry,
Speaker 1: and a lot of our customers that come in are
Speaker 1: people who seek out natural wine, and they also seek
Speaker 1: outsider because of some of the similar, you know, tasting
Speaker 1: parallels between the two groups, and so it's been exciting
Speaker 1: for us too. I mean also, a lot of natural
Speaker 1: winemakers are also cider makers, so we carry a lot
Speaker 1: of those people and the cider that they make here.
Speaker 1: And natural wine is also like having a moment right now,
Speaker 1: for sure, and I'm I'm sort of happy to to
Speaker 1: cling on those coattails and and bring cider along with
Speaker 1: it as much as we can to a new audience,
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, I mean I love drinking natural wine,
Speaker 1: but I don't really consider myself a part of that
Speaker 1: industry or scene. But my perception as a bit of
Speaker 1: an outsider is that there's just kind of this excitement
Speaker 1: about breaking tradition and norms, and I think the fact
Speaker 1: that cider doesn't have quite as much of that, at
Speaker 1: least here in the US, is kind of part of
Speaker 1: what's made it appealing to that scene. Um yeah, we're
Speaker 1: definitely trying to encourage drinking across across fruit boundaries. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: there's kind of a trend insider now to do um
Speaker 1: wine cider like co ferments or hybrids, and I've definitely
Speaker 1: been really excited by a lot of those. I think
Speaker 1: some producers are probably thinking the same way. And what's
Speaker 1: happening in the cider industry right now is so many
Speaker 1: consumers don't know how to buy cider. They don't we
Speaker 1: walk into a grocery store and they don't know how
Speaker 1: to figure out what's it going to taste? Like, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, am I going to enjoy this? Is it
Speaker 1: worth the price point? And packaging can say so much
Speaker 1: about that. And I remember in our podcast we were
Speaker 1: actually like pretty adamant that we thought seven fifties should
Speaker 1: maybe start to go away and and producers should be
Speaker 1: more open to smaller formats because they're more approachable to consumers.
Speaker 1: And we've since sort of taken those words back since
Speaker 1: opening Red Field because seven fifties have been incredibly popular
Speaker 1: and a great format for us to sell on the shelves.
Speaker 1: So it's what changed. Do you think it was the
Speaker 1: passage of time and like a more mature marketplace, because
Speaker 1: now you're saying here, you guys are having some success
Speaker 1: with it, So so what do you you think changed
Speaker 1: based on those prior experiences. I mean, red Field is
Speaker 1: is a very friend sighter experience then you will get
Speaker 1: anywhere else in the Bay Area. We really heavily curate
Speaker 1: what we bring in. We offer on an off premise
Speaker 1: so you can taste stuff and then take it home.
Speaker 1: And our our ethos behind our buying buying practices is
Speaker 1: to create almost like a like a safety net. So
Speaker 1: everything that we bring in has to pass through our
Speaker 1: buying practice isn't an addition to that. It has to
Speaker 1: be something that Mike and I like to drink. Um,
Speaker 1: So we only sell stuff that we like to drink,
Speaker 1: and we have a really wide range of stuff that
Speaker 1: we appreciate and like to drink. So whenever you come
Speaker 1: in and you walk in you're like, hey, I want
Speaker 1: to buy a bottle, Like can you help me, You're
Speaker 1: going to get a really really into hepth experience with
Speaker 1: one of us. Also, there's probably a lot to be
Speaker 1: said about the kind of person who would find their
Speaker 1: way into this kind of an establishment. But what about
Speaker 1: if someone's listening to this who is not in Rock
Speaker 1: Ridge in Oakland, but now they're sufficiently intrigued about drinking cider.
Speaker 1: What's the best way for like a common person in
Speaker 1: a commonplace to engage in this journey of cider. It's
Speaker 1: a tough question to answer, just because you know, like
Speaker 1: the the availability of cider throughout the country varies so much.
Speaker 1: If you can find a place that has a cool
Speaker 1: cider selection, what we usually look for, like on cider labels,
Speaker 1: is some kind of transparency about about what goes into it,
Speaker 1: whether that's like production methods or agricultural practices that lead
Speaker 1: to the fruit that they're sourcing for the use in
Speaker 1: the cider. That's stuff that we really look for because
Speaker 1: you know, usually if someone is spending more money on
Speaker 1: fruit and taking the care to select varieties that they're
Speaker 1: using to kind of generate a specific flavor profile that
Speaker 1: they're hoping to kind of hit, then it means they're
Speaker 1: proud of it and wanted to be on the label.
Speaker 1: That's a very short shorthand like way of of approaching things.
Speaker 1: You know, in a lot of places of the country,
Speaker 1: it's just like getting that first cider on the restaurants,
Speaker 1: you know list or in the grocery store shelves. You know, it's, uh,
Speaker 1: it's not always an easy thing to achieve, but I
Speaker 1: guess just you know, asking of it, getting relationship with
Speaker 1: your retailers, and and uh showing some kind of support
Speaker 1: that they're going to move when they bring it in.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean I would also just encourage people
Speaker 1: to try a couple of different ciders. So oftentimes, if
Speaker 1: you're at a restaurant, there's like one cider on the menu,
Speaker 1: and can you imagine going to a restaurant and they're
Speaker 1: just being one wine. It's like, Nope, all we've got
Speaker 1: is is like Peanot noir, and like that's all the
Speaker 1: wine that we carry. And that's kind of what's happening
Speaker 1: to cder right now. It's getting sort of pigeonholed into
Speaker 1: just being like, you know, one last like thought is
Speaker 1: like a gluten free alternative, and so if you try
Speaker 1: one sighter and you don't like it, I would encourage
Speaker 1: you to try like five or six, because similar to
Speaker 1: wine or beer, there's such variation and flavor and texture
Speaker 1: and and it's just such a nuanced beverage. I really
Speaker 1: can't state that enough and to just reiterate when Mike said,
Speaker 1: I mean, cider is an agricultural product, and if you
Speaker 1: meet people who are growing apples, they might know someone
Speaker 1: who's making cider, and that could be another great way
Speaker 1: to to try and figure out, like who who is
Speaker 1: really in touch with the fruit that they're using, because
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be a much higher quality product. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in a lot of places you go,
Speaker 1: you can you can try the first five or six
Speaker 1: ciders that you encounter, and and maybe there they might
Speaker 1: all be getting bulk juice from the same source and
Speaker 1: amending it with you know, Oregon fruit puree or whatever.
Speaker 1: There may not even be like a huge range across
Speaker 1: those first five or six ciders that you try. So
Speaker 1: I often like to steer new drinkers to try imports,
Speaker 1: knowing full well that like they may not even like it,
Speaker 1: but just to kind of like set the tone that like,
Speaker 1: here's something totally different that you might be excited by.
Speaker 1: Like we offer we always offer a flight on our
Speaker 1: menu that's like a pretty big range of ciders, like
Speaker 1: knowing full well that most people will not like all
Speaker 1: three of them, and we kind of present it that way,
Speaker 1: like here you can try a big range of stuff
Speaker 1: and then we can go from there, which is a
Speaker 1: little bit of a hard experience to replicate in a
Speaker 1: lot of the country. But you know, they're also options
Speaker 1: like like one of our better cider retailers and an
Speaker 1: incredible wine retailer in the Bay areas knel Ones, and
Speaker 1: they shipped to like forty states or something like that,
Speaker 1: So you know, maybe if your town doesn't have a
Speaker 1: great cider selection, that's an avenue worth exploring is finding
Speaker 1: some cool online retailer that can ship to you. On
Speaker 1: the one hand, it feels like cider is super duper
Speaker 1: taking off and becoming more ubiquitous, especially in coastal cities.
Speaker 1: Will say, and there's more labels, the marketing and the
Speaker 1: packaging is getting better, and there's like this sense of
Speaker 1: inevitability that like cider is the next big thing. But
Speaker 1: on the other hands, even since you guys have opened,
Speaker 1: it's not like they're cider bars popping up on every corner,
Speaker 1: and there's still a lot of consumer education that has
Speaker 1: to happen, and it just feels kind of further away
Speaker 1: from like coming to a grocery store, like a Kroger
Speaker 1: near you. So I wonder, since you guys have been
Speaker 1: here for eight months, knowing all you know about cider,
Speaker 1: both about your special situation here in Oakland in the
Speaker 1: marketplace more broadly, how much truth is there in this
Speaker 1: kind of inevitable next thing for cider and how much
Speaker 1: of that am I perpetuating just because I'm living in
Speaker 1: these coastal cities where I'm seeing it more and more. Well,
Speaker 1: one thing that's been most exciting to me about being
Speaker 1: in this space and like seeing what kind of customers
Speaker 1: come through here, is that there's a lot of young people,
Speaker 1: like a lot of college kids from cal come in here,
Speaker 1: and it's just, you know, drinking cider is just a
Speaker 1: super normal thing for them. And I have seen some
Speaker 1: some of that supported and you know Nielsen trends just
Speaker 1: in terms of like the how young cider drinkers are
Speaker 1: by and large, and that's really encouraging. I don't think
Speaker 1: people are gonna get passionate about cider and then just
Speaker 1: you know, stop drinking it as they get older. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think as that base gets older, and hopefully,
Speaker 1: like you know, cider continues to res in it with
Speaker 1: you know, younger generations as they grow into drinking age.
Speaker 1: That's I think a really healthy sign for cider's future.
Speaker 1: So that's really encouraging to me. Yeah, I mean, there's
Speaker 1: no way to predict the future, but I would say
Speaker 1: that obviously we're optimistic about it. Otherwise we wouldn't have
Speaker 1: started a business doing it. But I would say that
Speaker 1: the past couple of months have been really encouraging in
Speaker 1: terms of the type of people that we're getting in here,
Speaker 1: and like you know, just the volume that we've been
Speaker 1: able to do. It's been really encouraging. Okay, well, TBD
Speaker 1: is the answer, all right, Mike Olivia, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for taking the time to talk to me about
Speaker 1: cider today. I appreciate it much for having us h
Speaker 1: h h h h h m m m m m
Speaker 1: m m m m m m m m m m.
Speaker 1: And that's it for this episode. Point of Origin is
Speaker 1: a podcast from My Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine.
Speaker 1: Executive produced by Christopher Hasciotis and hosted by me Steven Saderfield.
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Cat Hong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins,
Speaker 1: and a very special thanks to my business partner wet
Speaker 1: Stone co founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast.
Speaker 1: Thanks mel and thanks to all of you for supporting
Speaker 1: wet Stone and listening to the Point of Origin podcast
Speaker 1: for all of the latest on all things point of Origin.
Speaker 1: You can follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine
Speaker 1: or online at wet Stone magazine dot com. We'll see
Speaker 1: you next week at the Point of Origin. W