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Speaker 1: The only thing I'm plugging is Forgotten Seasons. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to Forgotten Seasons. I am here with my friend, Jelannie McCoy. Jelanni,

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Speaker 1: how's it going today?

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Speaker 2: Fantastic. I'm having a great holiday. How you doing, Della.

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Speaker 1: I'm great. I'm excited for this whole show. I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to have you by my side for this. I know

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Speaker 1: a thing or two about basketball. I played, but I

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Speaker 1: have no idea what it's like to be on an

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Speaker 1: NBA team, play in front of thirty thousand fans. And you,

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Speaker 1: my friend, a nine year NBA pro, one of the

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Speaker 1: best players in UCLA history. So you saw a thing

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Speaker 1: or two over your your nine year career?

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Speaker 2: Is that?

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Speaker 1: Is that safe to say?

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Speaker 2: I think that's fair to say. I've seen a few

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Speaker 2: things when it comes to basketball, you know, collegiately, professionally,

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Speaker 2: high school, all throughout. So yes, my eyes have seen

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Speaker 2: a few things.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna get right into it again. You played

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Speaker 1: nine years. You played for the two thousand and two

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Speaker 1: championship winning Lakers. You played for the Denver Nuggets with

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Speaker 1: Carmelo and Alan Iverson. You played for the Seattle Sonics

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Speaker 1: with Gary Payton. You played for the Raptors with Vince Carter,

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Speaker 1: and I think throughout the next year we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: doing this every week and we're gonna have set episodes

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Speaker 1: for those teams. But for this I kind of just

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Speaker 1: want to touch on a few different points of your

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Speaker 1: career and ask a specific question for some of those stops.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna start in two thousand and three with

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Speaker 1: the Toronto Raptors. You join the team fresh off winning

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Speaker 1: the two thousand and two championship with the Lakers. And

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Speaker 1: the reason I want to start here is because you know,

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Speaker 1: I was going through my research going through your career,

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Speaker 1: and what became very apparent, which was surprising to me,

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Speaker 1: is that, and I don't think this is exaggerating, a

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Speaker 1: large portion of the Toronto Raptors fan base hates Vince Carter,

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Speaker 1: which is crazy to me. I understand that the end

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Speaker 1: of his Raptors career didn't go well. There's probably some

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Speaker 1: things that he regrets, But when you think of the

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Speaker 1: Toronto rap you do not think of the twenty nineteen championship.

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Speaker 1: You think of Vince Carter. Vince Carter's jersey still does

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Speaker 1: not hang in the rafters of the Raptors Arena and

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Speaker 1: the fans hate him. So I want to first introduce

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Speaker 1: who Vince Carter is and then ask you kind of

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Speaker 1: your memory of entering the Raptors organization. This is in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two oh three. So if we remember,

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Speaker 1: Vince Carter was drafted by the Raptors in nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: within two years, he's a global superstar. The Raptors were

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Speaker 1: a new franchise they started in nineteen ninety five. They

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Speaker 1: spend three seasons without Vince. They didn't win many games,

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Speaker 1: they were bad. Vince gets there and very quickly not

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Speaker 1: only makes the Raptors good, but brings the Toronto Raptors

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Speaker 1: brand to a global level. I mean, the two thousand

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Speaker 1: dunk contest is probably one of, if not the biggest

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Speaker 1: pop culture moment of the NBA in the two thousands.

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Speaker 1: So that's the backstory. Two thousand and one, they go

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Speaker 1: head to head against the seventy six ers in the

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Speaker 1: second round of the playoffs, and then after that two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one season, things kind of start to go downhill.

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Speaker 1: Vince gets hurt in the two thousand and one to

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two season. He's got a knee injury,

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Speaker 1: he gets a procedure, and then you come in the

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Speaker 1: next year. So as best as you can take us

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Speaker 1: back to your first days with the Raptors and help

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Speaker 1: us understand just who we're talking about when we talk

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Speaker 1: about Vince Carter, the Toronto Raptor.

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Speaker 2: Damn, that's a fantastic setup. And I think what people

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Speaker 2: have to remember is exactly what you said before Vince

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Speaker 2: Carter arrived in Toronto. Toronto was just you know, a

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Speaker 2: low level what's what's the what's the what do you

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Speaker 2: call it when you're a new franchise.

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Speaker 1: The uh, I mean the new kid on the block.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the expansion experiension and the expansion change,

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Speaker 2: so you know, yeah, they were just a low level

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Speaker 2: expansion chain. Dope Jerseys. Remember they were taking heat over

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Speaker 2: the Jerseys the dinosaur. What the hell is a Raptor?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: So for them to be blessed with Vince Carter at

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Speaker 2: the time, who was who captivated America's minds in high

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Speaker 2: school was a fellow of McDonald's High School, All American

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Speaker 2: with myself and that class of ninety five. So after that,

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Speaker 2: going to North Carolina, Vince Carter was on everybody's mind

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Speaker 2: in the United States of America. So for him to

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Speaker 2: land up north of the border in Canada to an

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Speaker 2: expansion team, you know, have some success right away, I

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Speaker 2: think meant the world for Canadian basketball. Also, you got

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Speaker 2: to remember at this time, this is like when I

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Speaker 2: got there, a Keem Olajuwan was supposed to be there.

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Speaker 2: They're supposed to have like Eric Montrosse rest in peace,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And I think a Keem Olajuan.

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Speaker 2: You know, he was going through some injuries he had.

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Speaker 2: They thought he would be ready for this year. I

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Speaker 2: think he went through some injuries before he was old.

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Speaker 2: He was an older dream, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: So he ended up not being able to play. I

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Speaker 2: think even Eric Montrosse, you know, had some injuries that

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Speaker 2: he wasn't able to to get ready for it for

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Speaker 2: that upcoming season. So shout out Lindsay Hunter. He arrived

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Speaker 2: in Toronto before I did, and he heard they were

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Speaker 2: looking for a big guy. And I had just played

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Speaker 2: with Lindsay and for the Lakers the previous year. And

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Speaker 2: shout out Lindsay Hunter. Lindsay Hunter, I mentioned my name.

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Speaker 2: Obviously had a relationship from Vince Carter since nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 2: and we had a great relationship playing and throughout the year.

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Speaker 2: So I mean I got that call, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I jumped at the opportunity. I just spent a year

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Speaker 2: on the bench with the Lakers, you know, playing here there,

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Speaker 2: but not really getting a chance to contribute like I

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Speaker 2: wanted to. So I jumped out the opportunity to jump

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Speaker 2: north of the border, you know, play with reunited with

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Speaker 2: a guy I knew from, you know, since nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 2: and have an opportunity to play with, you know, Vince Carter,

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Speaker 2: you know, and that's one of the you know, the

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Speaker 2: best superstars you can line line up with, share a

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Speaker 2: locker room with. You know, there's only a handful of

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Speaker 2: other people you know, bigger than Vince Carter at the time.

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Speaker 2: So it was a pretty easy decision. Plus I always

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Speaker 2: had I was always fascinated by Lenny Wilkins and the

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Speaker 2: Hawk teams, you know, Seattle Supersonic days, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. So it just seemed like a natural progression

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Speaker 2: and somebody that I admire when I was coming up

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Speaker 2: watching basketball, and have a opportunity to get couched by

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Speaker 2: you know, Lenny Wilkins. To me in my opinion is

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Speaker 2: a Hall of Fame coach. So I jumped at that

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Speaker 2: opportunity on the non guarantee.

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Speaker 1: So Lenny Wilkins is your coach for that season. He

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Speaker 1: gets fired after that season. And there's a few different

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Speaker 1: things that Raptors fans kind of point to when they

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Speaker 1: defend themselves and saying I hate Vince Carter. This is why.

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Speaker 1: One of those things is that Vince did miss a

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Speaker 1: significant amount of time around when you were getting there.

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Speaker 1: He played sixty games in two thousand and two. I

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Speaker 1: believe he played somewhere between forty and fifty that season.

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Speaker 1: He had knee injuries. And I mean, we hear this

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Speaker 1: all the time. You still hear it today, guys like

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Speaker 1: Kawhi Leonard, guys like Anthony Davis. I mean, fans want

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Speaker 1: their players to be on the court. I also think

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Speaker 1: it's interesting. I mean, you got to remember Toronto in Canada.

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Speaker 1: Now we think of Canada as a basketball It's a

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Speaker 1: hockey nation first, right, but basketball has grown a lot.

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Speaker 1: And I think what's interesting is that a lot of

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Speaker 1: the media members and even the fans were used to hockey.

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Speaker 1: And what happens in hockey, people get the shit kicked

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Speaker 1: out of them and they get their teeth knocked out

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Speaker 1: and they're right back on the rink. That's not how

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Speaker 1: basketball works. So I think that definitely played a part

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Speaker 1: of it. But like any fan base even today, when

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Speaker 1: your star player is going out for fifteen or twenty

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Speaker 1: games and it's not a series, you know, an ACL

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Speaker 1: or something crazy, they're going to start asking questions. And

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Speaker 1: the reason that I bring this up we had a

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Speaker 1: conversation yesterday and it's important to understand again what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about with a expansion, new franchise. You're coming from

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Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Lakers, one of, if not the most

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Speaker 1: historic NBA teams. Yeah, historic legacy, see very well run organizations.

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Speaker 1: A lot of fans don't realize there is a huge

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Speaker 1: disparity between how the top teams are run in the

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Speaker 1: bottom teams, and that has gone throughout the course of

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Speaker 1: NBA history. So I bring up the injuries, and I

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Speaker 1: bring up you playing for the Lakers and seeing that

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Speaker 1: in the Sonics then going to Toronto. What does the

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Speaker 1: organizational set up, maybe even specifically the medical staff have

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Speaker 1: to do with players going in and out of the court.

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Speaker 1: Vince Carter, not just Vince Carter, but I mean, in

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Speaker 1: this case, what is that connection between Vince Carter's injuries

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Speaker 1: and what the Toronto Raptors organization looked like at that time.

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Speaker 2: Well, what you have what you have to think about

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Speaker 2: if you remember or whatever. From what I remember is

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Speaker 2: that game that season, rather we were decimated by injuries.

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Speaker 2: We shattered the game's loss to injury throughout for a

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Speaker 2: whole team. Like I think we were like blown past

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Speaker 2: it almost like halfway through the season. I mean, dudes,

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Speaker 2: was dropping in the la upline practice, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean, angles here, soft tissue here. That was at

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Speaker 2: the point as that was at the time, I was

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Speaker 2: like top three in the league and rebounding. I threw

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Speaker 2: out my back in which I never really recovered from.

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Speaker 2: And everybody that year came back from injury fast, faster,

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Speaker 2: Like nobody took an extra time off. You know, everybody

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Speaker 2: wanted to play. I think Morris Peterson is the guy

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Speaker 2: who only played the eighty two games that season. He

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Speaker 2: was but he was he was a freak. But it's

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Speaker 2: important for the medical staff, the training staff to keep

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Speaker 2: those bodies on the floor. And if you're a Vince

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Speaker 2: Carter and considering his game, his style of play leaving

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Speaker 2: the earth, you know what I mean, playing in the

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Speaker 2: physical game in the nineties where you can get touched

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Speaker 2: up a little bit, you know, on the way to

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Speaker 2: the rim. So when you're Vince Carter and you're seeing

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Speaker 2: that you're continuing to lose, you know, fifteen here, twenty here,

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Speaker 2: twenty five, they're telling you you're okay, but you keep

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Speaker 2: coming back and getting nagging ass injuries, typically on the

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Speaker 2: same thing. Right, they rush you back. Your knee's okay,

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Speaker 2: you go see doctor specialists, team doctors. Now after you

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Speaker 2: see the team doctor, the training staff is supposed to

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Speaker 2: have a hold of you. They're in constant, constant conversations

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Speaker 2: with the doctor.

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Speaker 1: There's a team doctor that looks at you first and

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Speaker 1: he's kind of the head honcho, and then he passes you.

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Speaker 1: He says, you know, okay, you know this is what

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Speaker 1: you have. The training staff will take care of you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly. He might be the guy that actually

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Speaker 2: goes in cleans the knee up. Val YadA, YadA, YadA.

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Speaker 2: He's in touch with the head of the training staff.

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Speaker 2: He'll tell you, hey, his need the swelling won't go down. Okay,

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Speaker 2: Well take him off this and put him on that,

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Speaker 2: and put him in this and ice this four or

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Speaker 2: five times a day. So you know, you have to

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Speaker 2: be locked in with that person in the training staff

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Speaker 2: in a vulnerable moment when you're hurt and you're the

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Speaker 2: fucking man like Vince Carter, you that training staff, that

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Speaker 2: head trainer, and is your best friend after the doctor

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Speaker 2: leaves you and cleans you up. That training staff is

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Speaker 2: your best friend. And we didn't just you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking for Vince. I'm just going off my personal knowledge

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Speaker 2: and playing having a great dude, like for Tado in Seattle,

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Speaker 2: they named the fucking building after him, so he was

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Speaker 2: obviously pretty good. The Lakers, Gary Vedy, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. These are legendary training staff, people who kept

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Speaker 2: the top notch talent on the court. So from my experience,

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Speaker 2: everything else around Toronto, great leather bags for Christmas, you know, lunch, breakfast,

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Speaker 2: catered facilities, nice, everything clean.

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Speaker 1: They're still taking care of you to this day, this.

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Speaker 2: Day, to this day. Once you play for the Raptors,

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Speaker 2: get you get your own pension, you know, regardless as

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Speaker 2: long as you play for one year. So shout out

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Speaker 2: to the Raptors. But there was a disconnect between the

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Speaker 2: performance and the athletic training staff. And that's why you

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Speaker 2: always hear about players going to Phoenix or following training

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Speaker 2: staffs where they were juvenate player's career because of Reggie.

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Speaker 2: Training staff will rob your top players out of fifteen

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Speaker 2: twenty games in RBAT. So if you're Vince Carter, bro,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean? If you're getting hurt and

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Speaker 2: you're coming back, do.

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Speaker 1: You trust us? Dude?

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Speaker 2: Really? You love them, but you got nagging injuries and

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Speaker 2: everybody's looking at you. The country is looking at you

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Speaker 2: like you're supposed to be a toothless hockey player, and

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Speaker 2: they're seeing you almost like a pri madonna who's jumping

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Speaker 2: around doing this fantastic shit. But they don't see you

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Speaker 2: in the arena. So I don't blame Vince Carter.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the day, I think that makes

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Speaker 1: a ton of sense. I also think when you know,

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Speaker 1: when you think of players like Kevin Garnett or a

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Speaker 1: Damian Lillard that spend several years for an organization that

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Speaker 1: isn't surrounding them with talent to succeed. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: talked about it yesterday. Who is the best player that

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Speaker 1: Vince Carter played with in Toronto. You got a couple

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Speaker 1: of years of like a teenage Tracy McGrady. You got

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Speaker 1: old man Jaquem olajre On. I think we landed on

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Speaker 1: Antonio Davis, who's good player. I think you made an

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Speaker 1: All Our Game two thousand and one for the Raptors.

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Speaker 1: Solid player. But if that's going to be the best

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Speaker 1: player that you're you're going up for war against, if

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Speaker 1: you're Vince Carter, I mean you need some helping. He

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Speaker 1: played with a real point guard one year and Mark

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Speaker 1: Jackson that was the year that they had the most success.

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Speaker 1: Didn't really play with the point guard after that. So

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Speaker 1: what happens around this time is Lenny Wilkins gets fired

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Speaker 1: after the two thousand and three season. They bring in

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Speaker 1: a guy named Kevin O'Neill, who was like a high

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Speaker 1: school coach at heart, very oose. And what they say

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Speaker 1: what they what they say to Vince is listen, we

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Speaker 1: love you, Vince, but for your Raptors' tenure thus far

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Speaker 1: you have it hasn't been a true team. We've had

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Speaker 1: Vince Carter up here and then we've had the rest

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Speaker 1: of the team. And this guy says, you know, to

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Speaker 1: be a true team. Everybody has to be equal and

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Speaker 1: it was a weird Jalen Rose talked about this on

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Speaker 1: his episode of All the Smoke he got traded to

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Speaker 1: or signed with the Raptors this season, that Vince gets traded,

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Speaker 1: and he was talking about how the organization is leaking

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Speaker 1: all these things, like Vince's mom has a preferred parking spot.

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Speaker 1: Nobody else's family preferred parking That's what he's saying. He's saying,

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Speaker 1: it's Vince Carter. What are you saying, bro? So we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this so so so they're not surrounding him

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Speaker 1: with help. The training staff is suspect, and you know

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Speaker 1: now pretty much publicly they're saying, you know, Vince, thanks

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Speaker 1: for your service, but you know you're no longer the

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Speaker 1: universe of this organization. We're a team. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's what caused a lot And to go back

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Speaker 1: to the preferential treatment, like do you remember throughout your career,

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Speaker 1: no matter in Toronto or somewhere else, star players, like

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Speaker 1: what perks they got compared to you? And as a

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Speaker 1: role player, did you did you give a shit? Man?

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Speaker 2: This ship been going on since au. When you play

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Speaker 2: a you the two top three. Do they getting the

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Speaker 2: x X Swiss suits might be they might have an

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Speaker 2: extra three swist suits, they might have an extra two

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Speaker 2: pair of shoes. I mean, this is going on since

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Speaker 2: you sports baseball, whatever it is. When you earn the

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Speaker 2: right to be the man and you're performing at a

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Speaker 2: high level, you're supposed to get the include tremonts, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean, the shoes, the more attention, the

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Speaker 2: lee way during practice, if you're tired and you just

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Speaker 2: played a bunch of minutes as a role player. That

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Speaker 2: was never my I never had an issue with that,

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Speaker 2: you know, because at one point in time, I was

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Speaker 2: a McDonald's High school All American, I was a college

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Speaker 2: American and I played for a defending national championship in

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Speaker 2: the in the NCAA. So you love all your kids

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, but you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean, there tends to be favorites. And you know,

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Speaker 2: when in a league and a situation like the NBA

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Speaker 2: where it's like the one percent off of you know,

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Speaker 2: of the best, you're gonna know you have to know

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Speaker 2: realistically this somebody might have some shit that you shouldn't.

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Speaker 2: They're gonna maybe making more money, they're gonna get more attention,

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Speaker 2: They're gonna get a little bit more leeway. And that's

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Speaker 2: just something that's a professional as a role player view

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Speaker 2: to get that shit away from your ego as much

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Speaker 2: as possible, because it's literally something you can control. Only

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Speaker 2: thing you can control is how can I get in

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Speaker 2: that position to where I can get a little bit

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Speaker 2: more attention, to where I can get a little bit

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Speaker 2: more in this endorsement bill, I can get my jersey

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Speaker 2: and the team store, maybe I get my pick in

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Speaker 2: the hallway or outside. So's it works better when you

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Speaker 2: use it as a motivational tactic. I've done it both ways. Actually,

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Speaker 2: when you're young, it's kind of hard to see somebody

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Speaker 2: that you may or may not think is better than you,

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Speaker 2: you know, doing better having his jersey whatever. As a competitor,

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Speaker 2: you naturally want, you know, be fighting for positions at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day.

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Speaker 1: For sure, we've seen a few franchises fumble for you know,

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Speaker 1: not giving superstar players perks. I think if the famous

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Speaker 1: Tim Duncan story with Corndo and Doc Rivers not letting

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Speaker 1: his family find the team play, come on all to say,

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Speaker 1: if you have a star player and he wants to

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Speaker 1: and his mom wants a parking spot. Who the hell cares.

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Speaker 2: If I'm too, Dad don't want one. If it's my dad,

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Speaker 2: dad don't want one. You know what I mean? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: take two, take mine, take mine. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So to wrap up the Vince Carter chapter, so he

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Speaker 1: gets and again we'll go back to the fact that

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Speaker 1: Raptors fans do not like him. So Vince, they feel,

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Speaker 1: towards the end of his Raptors tenure two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four, two thousand and five, basically stop trying.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not over exaggerating. They call him a quitter,

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Speaker 1: and they think that he purposely tanked his trade value.

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Speaker 1: The Raptors organization traded him to the Nets for nothing.

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Speaker 1: They got Alonzo Morning, who said he didn't want to

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Speaker 1: play in Toronto, never shoots up for a game. They

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Speaker 1: got Eric Williams and Aaron Williams, solid players, got big

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Speaker 1: and then they got two first round picks who they

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Speaker 1: took Joey Graham and Ronaldo Balkman. So from twenty four

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Speaker 1: to twenty thirteen, the Raptors were horrible. They were in

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Speaker 1: an abyss. That's directly after trading Vince Carter, who goes

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Speaker 1: on to have a twenty two year NBA career ages

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Speaker 1: very well make some more All Star Games with the Nets.

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Speaker 1: So that's all to say. I think there's probably a

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Speaker 1: lot more to the story, but the fact that Vince

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Speaker 1: Carter's jersey is not hanging in the rafters of the

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Speaker 1: Raptors Arena. When I mean, I was texting our guy

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Speaker 1: Ariel Hillwani and he was talking about go look at

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Speaker 1: the two thousand Canada Olympic basketball team. He was Steve

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Speaker 1: nash RJ. Barrett's dad, Todd McCullough, nothing crazy, and then

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Speaker 1: go look at the Canada Olympic team this upcoming summer

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Speaker 1: in Paris, famile foto the USA. And why is that?

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Speaker 2: I mean, Vince Carter.

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Speaker 1: All it's gotta be Vince Carter. You asked any of

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Speaker 1: those guys, Jamal Murray, Tristan Thompson, they all say Vince

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Speaker 1: Carter was our Michael Jordan's her STARLA for the game

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Speaker 1: North Star. So it it doesn't make sense to me.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't make sense to round. Now you got to

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Speaker 2: let this shit go because if not for Vince Carter

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Speaker 2: and a splash a team at I don't think you

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Speaker 2: have those Canadian born players, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: And it's not fair. Do you have a franchise Vince

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Speaker 2: is in another country. That's a different type of prop up,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. You got to remember, like

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Speaker 2: you said, this is a hockey country. This is a

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Speaker 2: whole other country. Vince was walking around Toronto like how

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Speaker 2: he was supposed to walk around Toronto. He was a

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Speaker 2: young man, having things, running the city, doing things that

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Speaker 2: he wanted to do it. But that city and that

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Speaker 2: organization propped him up like that, and they made a

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Speaker 2: lot of fucking money propping Vince Carter up as almost

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Speaker 2: a national spokesman for Canada at the time, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean. So when that happens in an organization,

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, they don't feel like they're getting

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Speaker 2: their just due or you're bigger than the organization. That's

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Speaker 2: because he was his performance. The fans, the stands, they

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Speaker 2: anointed him, you know what I mean, bigger than the team.

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Speaker 1: They're Canada. They nicknamed him after the country.

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Speaker 2: Stop it, bro, you know what I mean, He's probably

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, he probably built a big

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Speaker 2: Nike footprint. Everybody in Canada was wearing Vince Carter's and

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Speaker 2: whatever he boings, the boyings, the shocks and all that shit.

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Speaker 2: I had a few paradim shit was dope to one

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Speaker 2: of the better shoes than Nike he ever made Vince have.

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Speaker 2: But they they owe Vince that jersey retire and one

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Speaker 2: of the dope things. I think what's going on in

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Speaker 2: sports right now is the reconciliation with some of the

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Speaker 2: players and some of their former teams. Now you're seeing

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Speaker 2: them slowly starting to come back around the fan base

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Speaker 2: and you know, the owners and the sponsors and everything.

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Speaker 2: And I will be a big proponent on any kind

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Speaker 2: of campaign to bring fifteen, you know what I mean

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Speaker 2: into the what is the Rogers Center now, whatever the

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Speaker 2: hell it is up there in Canada, you know what

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Speaker 2: I mean. I think his name should definitely be in

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Speaker 2: the Raptors. They gotta work that shit out.

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Speaker 1: I think there's certainly things that Vince regrets, and he's

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Speaker 1: gone on the record and saying everything he did wasn't right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, while you're injured, going on the

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Speaker 1: stage with Nelly in the arena and dancing.

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Speaker 2: Well, being in front of your club, being in front

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Speaker 2: of your club while you're injured, letting people in.

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Speaker 3: It comes with a look. Yeah, it comes with a look.

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Speaker 1: All to say, uh doesn't make sense. So let's move

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Speaker 1: on and actually go backwards the season before the two

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Speaker 1: thousand and two Lakers. We've already talked about the Shaq

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Speaker 1: and Kobe dynamic. I don't want to talk about that

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Speaker 1: pretty much like ever again. I think it's I mean,

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Speaker 1: one of the dudes is not here to give you

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Speaker 1: his perspective. I can't imagine what people got to stop

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Speaker 1: asking Shack about it too.

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Speaker 2: I hate Shaq works under G fourteen classify and he

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Speaker 2: gonna give you a little, but you're gonna never hear

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Speaker 2: the true that was part of the couch.

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Speaker 1: So I think you Your arrival to the Lakers comes

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Speaker 1: at a really interesting time. They had just won two

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Speaker 1: straight championships, and in the year before you get there,

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Speaker 1: that's when Kobe really starts to become one b to

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Speaker 1: Shack's one. At the two thousand the night the two

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Speaker 1: thousand championship, he's great. He averages, you know, twenty one

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Speaker 1: points a game in the playoffs, but Shaq is so clearly,

429
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 1: you know, the best player, And even when you were there,

430
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 1: Shaq was probably still the best player. I mean, he

431
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 1: was the best player in the world then Shaquille O'Neil.

432
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: But Kobe is really starting to become the Mamba. And

433
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 1: I was listening to Doc Rivers talk to KG and

434
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: Paul Pierce and they were talking about the Warriors with

435
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: Jordan Poole and how when you win a championship sometimes

436
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,640
Speaker 1: people come back the next season feeling themselves. They want

437
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 1: more shots, they want more minutes. And in no way

438
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: am I comparing Kobe Bryant to Jordan Poole, But I

439
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 1: think it's important to understand that when you arrive, they

440
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: had just won their second straight championship in which Kobe

441
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: Bryant averaged nearly thirty points per game in the playoffs.

442
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: At twenty two years old. You go back with Kobe, right,

443
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: you were at UCLA when he was a rookie with

444
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: the Lakers, going through some of the in the NBA.

445
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: The same agent arn't tell him, So you saw Kobe

446
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: basically maybe even before, but from eighteen years old up

447
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: until when you're playing with him now at twenty three

448
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 1: years old. Did Kobe actually change or just did his

449
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: abilities catch up to who he carried himself as, which

450
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: was I'm the next Michael Jordan and he wasn't really wrong.

451
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: So did Kobe change and did that cause something or

452
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: did he just did his abilities just finally match who

453
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: he thought of himself, which was the best basketball player

454
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: in the world.

455
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 2: First of all, that's a great question, Dylan Dreyfuss. I

456
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 2: would go with the ladder the work ethic, that everything

457
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: just messed up at the time and started matching up

458
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 2: with that shit that he was talking, you know what

459
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: I mean, walking around saying he wanted to be this

460
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: and you know he was better than solf so and

461
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: then like coming up in the gyms at UCLA and

462
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: playing dudes in the off season, trying to get it,

463
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 2: you know, letting him know that he was going to

464
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: be held during the season. So I just think it

465
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: was it was a perfect meshing of somebody's code cast

466
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: ship that they was talking actually coming out of them

467
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 2: and in real time, you know what I mean. So

468
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: I don't really think, like the mamba, he's just shedding.

469
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: You know, snakes, they shed their.

470
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: Skin, you know what I mean, A caterpillar to a butterfly,

471
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: Like you know what I'm saying.

472
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 2: I think he's he's just shedding shedding, shedding. You know,

473
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: at first he's probably a bowl constrictor or some other

474
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 2: kind of snake, and then you know he's just shedding,

475
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: shedding until he gets down to you know, the most

476
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: deadly snake of all the black mamba. But I gotta

477
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,439
Speaker 2: go with the ladder telling it. It was, we saw it,

478
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: We heard him. You're like, you ain't gonna be better

479
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: than Michael Jordan. We feel you know, you're gonna be nice.

480
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 2: You nice right now, you know what I mean? Eighteen

481
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty, You're gonna be nice. We see you copying Mike.

482
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: That was a thing for a little while, you know

483
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: what I mean. Even on the Lakers there used to.

484
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: Think you're like, like you think you're white dude.

485
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 2: On the bench, players used to tap each other and

486
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: they used to say Mike whenever he did something like

487
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: Jordan whenever he chewed his gum, whenever he anything that,

488
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: you know, whenever it turnaround. People would tap each other

489
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 2: and go mic, you know what I mean. There was

490
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: a mic count. So like he was playing that little

491
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 2: game until people thought that people realized it wasn't a game,

492
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 2: and this mother effort was really getting close to some

493
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 2: Michael Jordan's shit. So after he started backing up that

494
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: talk that you know, some of that shit, like you said,

495
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 2: he started moving past Shack. You know, he was in

496
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 2: the gym. You know, he wanted Shack in the gym.

497
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 2: He would he in the perfect world, he would wake

498
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 2: up with Shack at five o'clock and they would go

499
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 2: work out together on big and little pick and roll,

500
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: any type of thing in basketball you can never imagine.

501
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: But it was time. You have to have confidence, you

502
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 2: have to see it first. You know, sometimes you have

503
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 2: to speak things to existence to sound crazy. Somebody probably

504
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: told you you were out of your fucking mind doing

505
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: forgotten seasons, you know what I mean. And look what

506
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: look look where we're at now. So at some point

507
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: in time, you know, I mean, you do have to

508
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: speak things in existence to build your confidence and let

509
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: the rest of the space know that I'm coming, especially

510
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: in a place like the NBA. And I'm just actually

511
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 2: glad it came out of him. And he actually had

512
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: a good teammate like Shaq that actually, you know, kind

513
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 2: of let him fly when he was supposed to, you

514
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: know what I mean. I know he said he regretted

515
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: holding him back kind of, but he did. He was

516
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: the best veteran that Kobe needed to come become the

517
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 2: Black Mother really to me, because he was chilled. He

518
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: was a one, but he was chilled, and he knew

519
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: he needed some help Shack, you know what I mean.

520
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: He had Penny, you know what I mean, he knows it.

521
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: Seems like a kind of a rational person. He's he's

522
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: self aware.

523
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: Very self aware, very self aware. You know, you're getting

524
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 2: triple team and they fucking up your shoulder and you're

525
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: stepping on your toe and the ain't calling no fouls

526
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 2: and they got to make rules for you and all

527
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: this other shit. So he's tend to realize, hey, we

528
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 2: need somebody out here, you know what I mean. This

529
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: is cool and everything, but I don't need to average

530
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 2: thirty five and twenty like he did Orlando. You know,

531
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: you start to look around the league help and he

532
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: has some of the best help available.

533
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: So I want to I want to talk about probably

534
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: a more complicated figure and one that basically maybe nobody

535
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: understands Phil Jackson. I think it's important to understand who

536
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: Phil Jackson is. He was born into a very religious

537
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: family in rural Montana. He became a pretty good NBA

538
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: player at NBA Champion very open that dabbled heavily into

539
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: psychedelic drugs and he viewed. There's a quote he says,

540
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 1: basketball is not a metaphor for life. Life is a

541
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: metaphor for basketball. So when you have somebody at the

542
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: helm that is thinking in this societal four D acid

543
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: trip way, Phil Jackson is notorious for his you know,

544
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: questionable motivational tactics. I don't think you can call them

545
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: questionable because the dudes won three of the five three

546
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: peats ever an NBA championship in NBA history, So you

547
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: can't knock it. But I mean, from your perspective, you're

548
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: not Shack or Kobe. I would think that coming in there.

549
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: And Matt's even talk about it like Phil's an intimidating

550
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 1: ass dude, maybe not not super direct with you, passive

551
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: aggress Did Phil Jackson give you a book and you

552
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: know what it was?

553
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, it was Shantaram, which is now an Apple series.

554
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 2: Did you saw Apple?

555
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 3: I read it?

556
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: What is it about you.

557
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: Like that?

558
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, I'm just saying, hey, twenty four years

559
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: old in LA, you probably had things to do other

560
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: than reading.

561
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: No, I was reading like a motherfucker.

562
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: Okay, So what was the book about? And do you

563
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 1: know why he gave it to you specifically? Because because

564
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: he because last thing, I'll say, he gave it to

565
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: you for a reason. He's not just has one book

566
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: that he gives to everybody. He probably micro analyzed you

567
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: and for some reason gave you this fucking book.

568
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: So what he said said to me all year is

569
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: just fucking with me. But the book that he gave

570
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: me was Shantaram and it was a story about an

571
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: Australian Laura which is the Indian word for American or

572
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 2: white man, who was a criminal who fled to India

573
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: uh to hide to get away from his jail sentence.

574
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: And he lived within this one of the poorest provinces

575
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: or whatever in India, and it became like the village doctor. Right.

576
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 2: He cured one kid and then he became the doctor.

577
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: He hooks up with the local drug kingpin. He trades

578
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: medicine and he gets caught up with the local drug

579
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: kingpin and there's just this weird adventure. And at first

580
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 2: I was like, what the fuck is this? Well, you know,

581
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: I'm I'm the white guy that goes to India. This

582
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: a criminal, you know what I mean, that ends up

583
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 2: being the medicine man for the village. I didn't see

584
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: it at the time, you know what I mean. I

585
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: read it. I read it down there in one and

586
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: a half times. As soon as I got it, I

587
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 2: took offense to it at first, but then I went

588
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 2: to my fucking four D you know me new way

589
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: of society. You know, just Phil Jackson, he's fucking playing

590
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: games man. There has to be a message in here somewhere.

591
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: But yeah, that was my book. I didn't understand. I

592
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: still sometimes I still think I get it. But I

593
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: don't think you want to go predicting what Phil Jackson

594
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 2: thought in his mind, you know what I mean about

595
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 2: what he was doing with some of those books and

596
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: some of the motivation, because some of that shit is

597
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: just to get your goat, just to see what you're about,

598
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: just to see what he can and can to get

599
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: away with. So you know this mon PJ with Pokacho

600
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: ass all year. It ain't just shocking Kobe. Even if

601
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: you ain't playing like I would be walking in the

602
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: hallway in a suit on road trips. He would just

603
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: catch me. You know, he's got the walk and shit

604
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: and he's got a orr about him. You know, he's

605
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: a little Intimident's fucking Phil Jackson right playing with Mike,

606
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: you know, coach with Mike brought him to the top

607
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: of the room, so he should just come and randomly

608
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: be like, Johnny, do you think you could have helped

609
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 2: us tonight? And I'd be like, Philip, do you think

610
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: I could have helped tonight? And he used to be

611
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 2: like yeah, yeah, yeah, and then he would just walk away.

612
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: But then I would be the next two weeks, I

613
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: wouldn't come off I r you know what I mean.

614
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I got into it. Well. Shaq

615
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: thought he was doing me a favor, but it ended

616
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: up not being a favor because he went to Phil

617
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: Jackson and asked to start with stomach shout out Saomaki Walker.

618
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: He was a starter at the time. Mark Mattson was

619
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: the incumbent. Kirk Rambis, you know that paid Simaki to

620
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,719
Speaker 2: come over and be the starting four. Robert Dorry. You know,

621
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: it's hard to crack the lineup on the fucking team

622
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: that went back to back championships. But Shaq kind of

623
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: went to PJ and asked, could could he play with me?

624
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: Because of the dynamic where they were at with the relationship.

625
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: He wouldn't get in shade. He was overweight. He kind

626
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: of used that ship against Shaq, and then I was

627
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: the fucking beneficiary of sitting down because he obviously didn't

628
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 2: want to get shack. You know what the period of time, Yeah.

629
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: Did you ever see I mean, you hear these stories

630
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: where you walk into practice and there's no basketball. There's

631
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: like a tai chi master out there. I read. I

632
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: listened to one story which I have no idea if

633
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: it's true or not. It came from the actor Guy Tory.

634
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: He said that my.

635
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: Guy, who's hilarious by the way, shout out.

636
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: So a big Phil Jackson thing. I guess he's a

637
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: big movie guy, and he would interstitch movie clips with

638
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: like you know, if you're on the Lakers like the Kings.

639
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: So there's a guy. Tory claims that Phil Jackson mashed

640
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: up Jason Williams with Ed Norton from American History X

641
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: when Jason Williams had the tattoos.

642
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: It was a good call.

643
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: It looked like a descendant of a neo Nazi.

644
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: He leaned into the Sacramento kind of trashy country yeah.

645
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: He said that. They said that he even compared Rick

646
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: album into Hitler, which is crazy. But this, these are

647
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: these are the things that Phil Jackson may or may

648
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: not have done. You read that when he was back

649
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: with the Bulls, he uh mashed up the Wizard of

650
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: Oz with the bad boys Pistons and explained to bj Armstrong,

651
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: you know you can't be afraid of the big bad

652
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: boy Piston. So Phil Jackson, right, he's in his mind.

653
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: I don't think any of us know or could even

654
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: fathom what Phil Jackson's mind is like. But did you experience,

655
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, in the team when you were there, just

656
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: like shit that you you you've never experienced before, And

657
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: that in the moment people were looking around being like

658
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: what is he.

659
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: Doing every day? But now the co part about it

660
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: is nobody would blame. They wouldn't even be looking around

661
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: like what is he on? Like? You know, I I

662
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: think I told you this story before, but one time

663
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: I was coming into Staple Center early, you know, all

664
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: some Kobe shits coming in. I wasn't playing. I just

665
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: wanted to shoot in the fucking Staple Center.

666
00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

667
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: By myself A lawyer lifted some weights and PJ was

668
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: in there saging, doing this sage thing, right, he was

669
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: sag in the locker room going through you know what

670
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: I mean. I just so happened to be in there,

671
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 2: and fucking Mitch cup Check walks in after Phil sages

672
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: and I'm sitting in there dicking around, just getting my

673
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: h getting my ship together, my socks and whatever, and

674
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: Mitch Cupcheck walks in out. Mind you, after the U

675
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: c l A Ship.

676
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: I'm in the j R Rider not not not the

677
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: right category to being, you know, I'm in.

678
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 3: I'm in the I'm in I'm in the Smokers, the

679
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: smokers club, you.

680
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 2: Know what I mean.

681
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: The dude who smoked cigarettes on the baseball field in

682
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: high school.

683
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: You felt, you feel what I'm saying, but never failed

684
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: to drug tests, you know what I mean. None of

685
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: that ship just happened. Everybody just automatically assumed that I

686
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 2: was high and I did not smoke that year for

687
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 2: the Lakers because of that same reason, trying to break

688
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: some of the stigma coming from Seattle, you know what

689
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: I mean. They know we got down to Seattle and

690
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: Portland up in the corner of the Northwest. So anyway,

691
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: he's saging Mitch Kepchek comes in like sniffing, looking around

692
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: and shit, and then he kind of looks at me

693
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 2: and then like he and I'm like, I'm like.

694
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: Is this motherfucker thinking like I came in here like

695
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 3: that's boy. Yeah.

696
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, bro, that's sage. This

697
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 2: motherfucker's been doing this for the last two or three

698
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: years here. I hope you're not coming here thinking like

699
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 2: I'm off a cushbag, you know what I mean?

700
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: Coach Brown, Yes, your head coach.

701
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 3: And while he looked a little funny while he.

702
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: Was saging, he was real tranquil while he was going

703
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 2: through his practice.

704
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 3: You did, you know what I mean?

705
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 2: So I ain't saying you know what I mean, but

706
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 2: we've been knowing he's been doing to dabble a little

707
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: bit in substances, you know what I mean. So he

708
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: looked real tranquil as he said, as he says this room.

709
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 2: But yeah, he would come and fuck with you if

710
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: I dribble it during practice. He would tell me I

711
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 2: didn't have my driver's license. And only the only bigs

712
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: they could dribble were Shack, Robert Dorry and like somebody else,

713
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: like you know what I mean. If I did anything, bro,

714
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 2: he would just be if I was killing in practice.

715
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: He would actually sometimes stop me and then make me

716
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: go get on the elliptical. So whenever I started catching

717
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: up to the Mark Madsens and the Samaki Walkers, Clint

718
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: Jim Clemens later told me that he was grooming me.

719
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 2: Keep it. That's how you would talk to me. And

720
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 2: keep your head on tape. Stay in shape, you know

721
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: what I mean. I know it's crazy. Yes, you probably

722
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: should be playing. You started last year for the Sonics,

723
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: busted our ass I got. I think we handled like

724
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: the Lakers some of their worst defeats in the previous

725
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: the previous two years. And he was like, he's grooming you.

726
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: I didn't really like the way that shit sounded, you

727
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: know what I mean. And I didn't it's superwere so

728
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, or ship like that, But

729
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: it was accepted, you know what I mean. The meditating

730
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: the meetings when he bangs the drum, goomomomomomom, like you

731
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: all have to file in and come into the meeting room.

732
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 2: He did like little it's.

733
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: Like it's like Native American tribal chief, and that's what that's.

734
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: What he was in. That's exactly what it is. But

735
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 2: you need to explain that. But Dylan fact, you need

736
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: to explain that to the brother man. Sometimes you're not

737
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: giving us Native American PJ. You know what I mean.

738
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: You're giving us you know, white guy, you know what

739
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 3: I mean.

740
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: So for you to be talking tribal and existentialism and

741
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 2: all this ship You're ever gonna listen to you because

742
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: of your success. But at the end of the day,

743
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: some people just want to fucking hoop. And as he

744
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 2: started to get in his ways and become Phil Jackson

745
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: and you know, just keep stacking. He ain't gonna change.

746
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: I wouldn't.

747
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what I think is important to note is

748
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: like not questioning Phil Jackson as the coach, but you

749
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: can call him a great and one of the best

750
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: coaches ever and also say that some things that he

751
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: did were a flawed human like the rest of us

752
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: as we are. So last thing on the Lakers. So

753
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: last thing on Phil. Do you think that Phil eventually

754
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: just saw the looked into the abyss, looked into his stones.

755
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 2: And said it's it's Kobe shook some bones and ship

756
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: was talked to the sous Sayers and the Native American

757
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 2: win catcher ship. He made the right decision, of course,

758
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: you know, he knew he was going to drive a

759
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: wedge in between him and Shock. But you know, and

760
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: knowing Mitch Kepchek and how they felt about players over

761
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 2: the age of thirty and you know, the relationship, but

762
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: they had a great run, and and just understanding you know,

763
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: GMS and you know the way the business of basketball works.

764
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: You know, he knew that was going to drive a

765
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: wall within their relationship. But I think that was a

766
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: sacrifice that he was willing to make because, uh, there's

767
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: no you know, at the end of the day, Dylan,

768
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: I think he knew Shaq will forgive him because of

769
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 2: the sensibility that we spoke to that we spoke to earlier, right,

770
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: and because of how he handled the Kobe situation. And

771
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 2: as much people you hear Shacks that he was fighting

772
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: and it was a tug of war. Shaq is very

773
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 2: self aware. Ain't no tug of war with Shaq. He

774
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 2: can chirp and chirp and stand in his line, but

775
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, ain't no moving big

776
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: Shack com me. You know, physically, mentally, you know, what

777
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: I mean. How you can think he's dull or dumb.

778
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 2: I assure you he's not, you know what I mean.

779
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: So I think he knew Shaq will forgive him at

780
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 2: the end of the day. I think Shaq made a sacrifice,

781
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, understanding who Kobe was. Although

782
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 2: he had a big ego and he's shocked. I think

783
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: you know, he knew, he knew who Kobe was going

784
00:39:58,600 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: to be, So you know what I mean, he was

785
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 2: just wanting him to I don't know wade or transfer

786
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: power however that works out. But at the end of

787
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: the day, I just want to reiterate that I think

788
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: Phil knew what he was doing. He knew Shack well

789
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 2: enough to know that although he was putting a wedge

790
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 2: in their relationship, at the end of the day they

791
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 2: would have a conversation and where he would forgive him,

792
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,479
Speaker 2: Kobe would not. He knew if it went the other way,

793
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: A spiteful Kobe goes down the hall to the Clippers

794
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: right and does or Boston or some other weirdo shit

795
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, to be super spiteful and

796
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 2: get back at your ass. So I think that's where

797
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: he That's where his decision lay personally.

798
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: And why didn't Did they just not offer you after

799
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: that season or did you get a bigger offer from.

800
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: Someone I left? I left. I played the Summer League afterwards.

801
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: You know, I was killing in the Summer League. I

802
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: finally got to try and go down and uh the group.

803
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 2: The grooming ship was in the back of my mind.

804
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: No disrespect to mad Dog. I was busting his ass,

805
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, and practice Slava Medvedenko. You know,

806
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 2: I was going. I was getting sharpened by Robert Dorry,

807
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: who was one of the greatest post defenders and power

808
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 2: forwards of all time.

809
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: On the low.

810
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 2: And I just passed tests I started before, you know

811
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: what I mean, at the Sonics over Van Baker, you

812
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: know what I mean. So I just felt like I

813
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: didn't want to be groomed. And you know, I won

814
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 2: a championship. I obviously wanted to compete for one, but

815
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: that Summer League I just didn't vibe with the coaching staff.

816
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: I went a little rogue, had a sour taste in

817
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: my mouth from the end of the year when I

818
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: played for the Lakers and and I wasn't playing, so

819
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: ultimately I decided that I was going to go on

820
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 2: X ray. But when I had my exit meeting with

821
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: Phil Jackson, right thinking already got the grooming thing in

822
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: my head, he said with all he said that he

823
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 2: won me to go somewhere else so that I could play.

824
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 2: It wasn't a talent thing or didn't fit. He was like,

825
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 2: you know, because of the three straight championships and now

826
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: you got you know, some Mokeys, you know, the incumbent starter.

827
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: Now you still got to go through Robert Dorry. Medvedenko's

828
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: had a good year, you know what I mean. His

829
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: words to me were like, I want you to go

830
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: somewhere you know what I mean, where you can play

831
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: and get back to it, you know, your regular schedule programming.

832
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 1: Well, you definitely could have played for the Lakers after

833
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: Shack left because that those are us are brutal. So

834
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: I wanted to get to some other teams. But I

835
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: think we're going to save the Nuggets and we're going

836
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: to save the Sonics. I think we're going to get

837
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: some of your teammates on. I'm gonna put into the

838
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: universe of Vernon Maxwell for that Sonics tenure, and I

839
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: think our j R. Smith for that Nuggets tenor would

840
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: be great. Lastly, I do want to talk about your

841
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: early days. You mentioned it in Passing on Top, but

842
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: I think people have to understand who you are, A

843
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 1: number two ranked player in the class of nineteen ninety

844
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: five behind Kevin Garnett McDonald's All American. I sent you

845
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: a screenshot from UCLA Basketball Reference the season leaders of

846
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: true shooting percentage, Bill Walton, Kareem abdul Jabbar, Lonzo Ball,

847
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: Kiki Van Duway. So you've been around, but you know,

848
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: I know that your UCLA career didn't go as an

849
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: intended What happened? Was it that I know you committed

850
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 1: to a different coach? Steve Lavin comes in. It's a

851
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: little bit like that dude, Kevin O'Neill that we talked about.

852
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 1: It seems like I'm more rigid by the book. Dude,

853
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: wasn't going to take any shit. What happened? And was

854
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 1: it just was it just weed? I mean? Or was

855
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: it was it weed? Or was there did it? Did it?

856
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 3: Was?

857
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: Was was the failed weed test the thing that really

858
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: did it? Or was it something else?

859
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: What happened to Ucla? I comitted early my junior year,

860
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 2: the earliest you can commit. So I played like half

861
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: the second half of my junior season and my senior

862
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: season fucking committed to u C l A. You know,

863
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: I think I took one recruiting trip to cal I. Originally,

864
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: Lorenzo Romar was my original you know, he was the

865
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 2: guy that was close to me. He ended up leaving

866
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: in the middle of I think my freshman year and

867
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 2: going to Pepperdine taking the head coaching job, so I

868
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 2: lost him. He was my rock. And then I developed

869
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: an extremely close relationship with coach here, you know, at

870
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: the end of the day. And he was a basketball savant,

871
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: introducing me to you know, things that you know, pushing

872
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 2: my IQ and challenging me for in different different ways

873
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 2: to get on the court as a freshman.

874
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: Uh.

875
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 2: And then obviously, you know I went from my all

876
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: boys high school down here in San Diego shout out SAT.

877
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: Saint Augustine. There was like seven hundred students to UCLA,

878
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: So you know what I mean, I already came in

879
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: just to keep it a buck. I was getting in

880
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 2: it in high school. You know, it wasn't affecting my performance.

881
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: You know, I went to all boys private school. There

882
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: was everything under the sun on our campus. You know,

883
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 2: so I technically the all boys ship. School kids do

884
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 2: the weird shit. Uh my vice was was tree. I

885
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 2: had bad, I had bad, I had bad OCD. You know,

886
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 2: I was a little always a little hyper. Once I

887
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 2: got a hold of the tree, I was like, oh shit,

888
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: I'm locked in, you know what I mean. So I

889
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: went through so much stuff in childhood with parenting, overbearing mother,

890
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 2: all that other ship. So eventually it became about the cannabis.

891
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: But the cannabis shit was fucked up. They tested me

892
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: in the summertime. You know, I'm playboy preseason All American.

893
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: They ain't doing that ship at Duke in Kentucky, MHM

894
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: in North Carolina. And that was Leavin. That was Pete Dallas,

895
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 2: the a d who hated coacher and wanted him fired,

896
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 2: who eventually ended up getting coach Eric fired because of

897
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 2: the assistant.

898
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 1: He was the assistant coach.

899
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 2: Coach Errick is the head coach. Lavin is the assistant,

900
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: Like the third Lavin is the raw rack. Lavin is

901
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 2: the raw raw humming, this is the assistant. Laugh is

902
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: So I'm going from a basketball savant that knows every

903
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 2: single thing about basketball dealing you can ever imagine only

904
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: other person that seen was Phil Jackson like this and

905
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: Lenny Wilkins calm, gotta play for everything, but gonna tell

906
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 2: you what's about to happen in the time out. Never

907
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: raised his voice. Just information, information, information. My vision was

908
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 2: Walton was thirty two, Green was thirty three, Ed was

909
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: thirty one, thirty two, Walton thirty three, Abdul Jabbar thirty four. McCoy, motherfucker.

910
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: That was my I was gonna leave early. He was

911
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 2: trying to figure out if I was gonna leave early.

912
00:46:55,160 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: At UCLA. There's there in the showers. You can only

913
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: shower on the right side if you're a first team

914
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: All American.

915
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: So nobody so nobody showered on the right side.

916
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 2: No, you got to be a first team All American,

917
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 2: it could, you know. So that was that was how

918
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm the I'm showering on that fucking side, man,

919
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: And everybody took it. You would get your ass beat

920
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 2: thinking that you're funny, even turning on the thing like

921
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: you're gonna play around.

922
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: They don't play, you know, they don't play.

923
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 3: You know.

924
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: We have Bob Myers, who at the time was swollen

925
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: iching walk these dudes benching three hundred and twenty five

926
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: pounds just won a national championship. Like you know, they

927
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: took that shit shious tradition. So ended up getting tested

928
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: in the summertime. Long story, short down. Sorry, I went

929
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: off on a tangent. Ended up getting tested in the

930
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 2: summertime because they said I was on campus because I

931
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 2: was taking summer school because I wanted to graduate early

932
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: and get my degree, you know what I mean. So

933
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 2: I'm being punished. I wasn't in academic shambles. I'm trying

934
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: to get ahead of my ship. So they ended up

935
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: testing me. I come up positive, Uh, they suspend, They

936
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: suspend me, do my penance whatever, take another test. So

937
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: let's say, yeah, THHA levels are twenty five yep. Right,

938
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 2: the next time they test.

939
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: Me lower, it's got to be lower than that.

940
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: They said, I'm they're seventeen. Mine seventeen. So they're like,

941
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: that counts as a positive test. You're still smoking weed.

942
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: So I thought I was at the University of California,

943
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: Los Angeles, you know, one of the pre eminent schools

944
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: in the country. I'm trying to figure out what weed

945
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: you smoke that makes your THC count go down?

946
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: So how long after how long in between the test.

947
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: Was it bro in between the tests, it was like

948
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: bros getting tested like every whatever schedule every two weeks.

949
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: Every week.

950
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 2: That's crazy, I mean every every week. And then actually

951
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 2: my wife's my wife's father who was actually a doctor

952
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 2: at SC found out what was going on through my

953
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: wife in this situation and actually penned a on how

954
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,479
Speaker 2: THC depending on what he's eating is if he's high

955
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: and fat, if he's you know what I mean, it's

956
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: going to stay out.

957
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 3: A little longer.

958
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: Like I did the whole thing, and he's went to

959
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: fucking he's at SC doing this whole finding about like

960
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: that's not as feel THC. You know, at the time,

961
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 2: it's like looked at like you're a criminal, in which

962
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: which is another story. Black kid smokes weed, throws away

963
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: his life, as you know, the new Messiah at u

964
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: c l.

965
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: A that was that was nineteen ninety five is also

966
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,240
Speaker 1: it's a different universes than facts, different universe.

967
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: Facts, So that happens I get. I ended up getting

968
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: one of the best lawyers in Los Angeles, Brian Lesat,

969
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 2: and he builds his case and we were going, I'm

970
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: sitting in these weird oak rooms, and you know, watching

971
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: people go to school having these crazy meetings about my career.

972
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 2: The chancellor and everybody's talking to me like I fucking

973
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: sold drugs to students like whole bricks. And I had

974
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 2: a case against you c LA Dylan for I had

975
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: seven years to sue the school for a lot of

976
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: fucking money based on my draft. What happened to my

977
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: draft status? You know, Lavin did some dickhead shit that

978
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 2: he shouldn't have done that. You know, he's later regretted

979
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 2: and we've talked about and you agreed to move on.

980
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: You know, he was young, trying to get on woo

981
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 2: do woo?

982
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 3: Do you want?

983
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: He shipped on me, fucked up my draft status, the

984
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: literal Larry Brown. Like, I literally had coaches tell me

985
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 2: what Lavin said about me and and my uh my

986
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: pre draft worked out. So never sued the school. I

987
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 2: loved U c l A too much, you know what

988
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: I mean. I got this, the whole lawsuit and the

989
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: whole case sitting in my garage till this day, but

990
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 2: never sued the school because I always wanted my kid

991
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 2: to have an opportunity to go there, just in case

992
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 2: he wanted to, you know, what I mean. So I

993
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 2: never did, but there's a lot of nuances, and that's

994
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 2: a whole fucking documentary in itself because former player, former

995
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: players reached out. They still do to this day. So

996
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: I would say this to end that the saving grace

997
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 2: and me going through that ship is that I probably

998
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 2: would have fell off the face of the earth. It

999
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 2: would have been a hard thing to recover from if

1000
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: I didn't have some of those legacy players and people

1001
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 2: that watched Kareem and Bill Walton come and tell me

1002
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 2: that I was one of the best bruin centers of

1003
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: all time. So during that kind I think, kind of.

1004
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: Help that's in the midst, that's in the midst of

1005
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: in the miss.

1006
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 2: In the mid in the miss and I went to

1007
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 2: go see Jim Brown at the end of the day.

1008
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 2: You know, Jim Brown called me to his home with

1009
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: my other boy, Daryl Russell rest in Plice, that my

1010
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 2: best friend there was a number two pick in the

1011
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 2: NFL draft who was going through some things too. We

1012
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 2: went up to fucking Jim Brown's house and got like

1013
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 2: set straight, you know what I mean, and what it

1014
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 2: is to be a black athlete in America with your

1015
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 2: new responsibilities, and you know, Jim Brown's a scary motherfucker

1016
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, So it worked. I

1017
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: tried to finish the season, you know what I mean. Ultimately,

1018
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 2: after that test, they told me that test I was

1019
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 2: going to be suspended for the indefinitely and have to

1020
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 2: do all this reapplying. They sent me the extensive counseling.

1021
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: So I used to have to leave in the middle

1022
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: of practice to go see this counselor because if I

1023
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: was late, if I was more than five minutes late,

1024
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: they counted as a positive test, and I had to

1025
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 2: go from Westwood to Century City at like four point thirty,

1026
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: which is dam goddamned, damn there impossible. So you know

1027
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: what I mean. As a whole shit, I kind of

1028
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 2: was like, I can't do this, you know what I mean.

1029
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: So around Valentine's Day I left the team. It was

1030
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 2: a big ass deal. Teammates hated me, you know what

1031
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 2: I mean, for years, or you know what I mean.

1032
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 2: Even still to this day, I felt like some of

1033
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 2: my teammates had held it against me. I've talked to

1034
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: a few, thank god, the ones that I'm close to

1035
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: and love. They said, you know, as a young as

1036
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: a young man, they didn't understand. But now you know

1037
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 2: what I mean, it's older and we see what happened

1038
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: with cannabis. They get it completely. So that was the

1039
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 2: saving Grayson. And we had some real ruins and real

1040
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: ones reach out for you boy and put it to

1041
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 2: put their arms around them. No freaky.

1042
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: Appreciate you, Sharon, Yeah, yeah, last question nineteen ninety five

1043
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:09,720
Speaker 1: McDonald's All American Game. You Vince Carter, Kevin Garnett, Stephon Marbury,

1044
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: Paul Pierce, Antoine, Jamison treef abdul Verhem. After you left

1045
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: Saint Louis where it was held, who did you think

1046
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: was going to be the best player in the NBA?

1047
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 2: Come on, it's Ticket. Ticket. You know it was doing shit,

1048
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. The high school kids shouldn't

1049
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 2: have been doing He was showing shit, you know what

1050
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 2: I mean. Wherever he wins zero dark thirty and came

1051
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: back even after Nike Camp and you know some of

1052
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 2: the other matchups we had. You know, Paul was showing,

1053
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 2: you know, he could score, he was going to be

1054
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 2: pretty good. But Ticket was just on some different shit.

1055
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 2: The way he was moving at seven feet, you know

1056
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 2: what I mean, He didn't have no goof in his troop.

1057
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 2: Everything was fluid, you know what I mean. He looked

1058
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 2: like he was six'. Five you know WHAT i, mean

1059
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 2: he was all of seven one seven. Something he'll tell

1060
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 2: you six eleven fucking ticket is like seven feet bro

1061
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 2: seven one sometimes it feels. Like but it was clearly

1062
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 2: gonna Be. Uh vince stood, out, Obviously steph stood. OUT

1063
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 2: i stood, out you know WHAT i? Mean and uh

1064
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 2: and BUT kg was, like, nah he probably should go

1065
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 2: to pros out of high. School and he did. That,

1066
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 2: yeah we gotta do a lot more with.

1067
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,240
Speaker 1: That. UH i think that's gonna be it for. Today every,

1068
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: week Every, wednesday you're gonna find. Us I'm dylan Dreyfust

1069
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,479
Speaker 1: Is jelani. McCoy we will catch you next.

1070
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 3: Week