Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
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Speaker 1: now through the end of July fourth weekend. Today's episode,
Speaker 1: I am joined by the National Links Trust founders Will
Speaker 1: Smith and Michael McCartin, and we are discussing their huge news.
Speaker 1: They earned the bid to manage the three Washington d
Speaker 1: C municipal courses from the National Park Service last week.
Speaker 1: They are now in the negotiation phase of this process,
Speaker 1: but they will be managing these three golf courses. It
Speaker 1: is an incredible opportunity for municipal golf across the country
Speaker 1: as well as in d C. Obviously, with these three courses,
Speaker 1: they are East Potomac Golf Course, which is an original
Speaker 1: Walter Travis design, Rock Creek which is a William Flynn design,
Speaker 1: and Langston Golf Course, which has historically been the hub
Speaker 1: of African American golf in d C. The projects would
Speaker 1: be undertaken by Tom Doak, Gil Hans and Bo Welling,
Speaker 1: the senior design associate for Tiger Woods Design. The podcast
Speaker 1: leads off with Michael mccarton talking. He was a guest
Speaker 1: on episode one hundred and twelve of the podcast if
Speaker 1: you miss it, we talked in detail about East Potomac
Speaker 1: on that podcast and his thesis on the subject matter.
Speaker 1: If you want more information on the three DC courses,
Speaker 1: obviously that podcast with Michael was a big one, but
Speaker 1: we also have a few articles written on the website
Speaker 1: at www Dotfrida egg dot com, so you can check
Speaker 1: those out there. And now, without further ado, here is
Speaker 1: Michael McCartin and Will Smith.
Speaker 3: I miss the green for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 3: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 4: And when I find my.
Speaker 3: Ball in a frid Egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg,
Speaker 3: Frida egg, Frida egg egg fridagg bride egg Lie, I'm
Speaker 3: about ready to run off of the hump.
Speaker 5: Course, what was the oh ship moment?
Speaker 1: We this? This is a this is a lot of
Speaker 1: work to get this done. I mean, you guys are
Speaker 1: are novices, newbies at this and uh, this was kind
Speaker 1: of your first first crack at public entering, the public
Speaker 1: domain and RFP process.
Speaker 4: I guess the question is are you referring to the
Speaker 4: oh ship moment that happened while we were putting the
Speaker 4: RFP together or after we want it?
Speaker 1: Because we had either or maybe both of them.
Speaker 4: I think there's a moment in this where, you know,
Speaker 4: on the front end, when you have a great idea,
Speaker 4: you know, Will and I and a lot of people
Speaker 4: had come together to say we really believe in this
Speaker 4: and we want to be a part of it. Going
Speaker 4: forward and that that's you know, the easy part. And
Speaker 4: then when we looked at the RFP and everything that
Speaker 4: was going to be involved in, all the elements we
Speaker 4: had to bring together in a short timeframe, that was
Speaker 4: definitely an O Ship moment and and it definitely proved
Speaker 4: out to be as much worker more than we could
Speaker 4: have envisioned at that time. I mean, it was it
Speaker 4: was an intense period of time after winning the or
Speaker 4: you know, winning the right to negotiate the lease recently,
Speaker 4: the OH Ship moment was a little bit different. It
Speaker 4: was a little more tied into a motion of how
Speaker 4: much effort we have put into it and how crazy
Speaker 4: it is that we you know won, we won, and
Speaker 4: we're gonna, you know, hopefully have the opportunity to do this.
Speaker 4: But this OH Ship moment's on a much different scale.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's many years long and and there
Speaker 4: really is a lot of work. And this is not
Speaker 4: just putting it on paper, it's actually making it happen.
Speaker 1: Uh talk to was there a feeling that you were
Speaker 1: going to get it or did this did the you
Speaker 1: know them calling you in a war like you know,
Speaker 1: I assume that called you or emailed you and awarded
Speaker 1: you the bid.
Speaker 2: Was that just kind of uh surprised.
Speaker 4: I think we were confident in the team that we
Speaker 4: put together and the vision behind what we're trying to accomplish.
Speaker 4: But we've never been a part of a government process
Speaker 4: like this, and you never know what the priorities are
Speaker 4: or the influence influences are in the background, and I
Speaker 4: was surprised. We had no idea what to expect. And
Speaker 4: when you don't have that kind of experience, I think
Speaker 4: you tend to believe that other factors, beyond what you
Speaker 4: can control are the things that will drive the process.
Speaker 4: So to see that the Park Service, you know, also
Speaker 4: values the things that we put into our proposal, was
Speaker 4: really gratifying. I don't know, how did you feel? Well?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, you know, as someone who grew up
Speaker 6: in DC and have seen has seen a lot through
Speaker 6: politics and that and that sort of thing over the
Speaker 6: last forty five years, you just never know how these
Speaker 6: things are going to play out. And as Mike said,
Speaker 6: we were confident in our vision, We were confident in
Speaker 6: the team we put together. We knew that there was
Speaker 6: at least one other competitor that was going to be responding,
Speaker 6: and you know, we knew they were they had worked
Speaker 6: hard on this, and that they had put a lot
Speaker 6: of effort and time into it, and that they were
Speaker 6: a bunch of big hitters in the DC scene. It
Speaker 6: was probably helpful that we really didn't dive into who
Speaker 6: was on the on on their board until I think
Speaker 6: it was the last day that I had to pull
Speaker 6: up their website and read through it, and that that
Speaker 6: was definitely an O ship moment because it's it's quite
Speaker 6: an impressive list, and you know, uh, you know, so
Speaker 6: we just didn't know how much sort of back room
Speaker 6: politicking was going to come come into play rather than
Speaker 6: sort of the merits of of the proposal, because we
Speaker 6: felt we felt confident on that we really did.
Speaker 1: What from your guys's proposal, what angle did you feel
Speaker 1: resonated most with with the National Park Service?
Speaker 4: I don't know what you think, well, but what I
Speaker 4: was most impressed with in the process was how aligned
Speaker 4: the Park Service was with the things that we valued
Speaker 4: and wanted to accomplish with this project. And they're not
Speaker 4: unique to us, but you know, the Park Service really
Speaker 4: wanted to respect the histories of the properties and to
Speaker 4: go back to whether it's the original golf architecture or
Speaker 4: preserve the golf culture that's developed at each of the courses.
Speaker 4: The Park Service was extremely explicit about saying that's what
Speaker 4: the prioritized, and on top of that, they did a
Speaker 4: ridiculously good job of documenting the histories of the courses
Speaker 4: and what eras of their history that they would like
Speaker 4: to see the courses go back to. So it's really
Speaker 4: kind of like a historic preservation project in a lot
Speaker 4: of ways, and that's what the Park Service is really
Speaker 4: good at, and it happened to be the exact thing
Speaker 4: that when Will and I first got together to talk about,
Speaker 4: this was the part of the potential project that we
Speaker 4: wanted to emphasize and get the word out about. So
Speaker 4: there's just really great alignment there between what the Park
Speaker 4: Service was asking for and what we were putting into
Speaker 4: our proposal. So I'm assuming that that aspect of our
Speaker 4: proposal was one of the things that probably most stood
Speaker 4: out to them.
Speaker 2: So you guys both have.
Speaker 1: You know, experience and part of your career was in
Speaker 1: golf course architecture and from the restoration at a standpoint
Speaker 1: of if you were going to a club and restoring it,
Speaker 1: people look at at hey this is the era that
Speaker 1: we want to bring it back to, or a lot
Speaker 1: of times it's identifying when the best self of the
Speaker 1: course was what what are the different eras that you
Speaker 1: and the nps UH sat, you know, kind of landed
Speaker 1: on at each course, at at Langston, at Rock Creek,
Speaker 1: and at East Potomac well.
Speaker 6: Rock Creek, there was the there was a nine hole
Speaker 6: original routing that Flint did, and then soon thereafter he
Speaker 6: came in and expanded it to eighteen and kind of
Speaker 6: chopped up most of the first nine. There was only
Speaker 6: one hole that was that carried through in both in
Speaker 6: both routings, which was the eleventh in.
Speaker 4: The current current order of play. And you know, we
Speaker 4: knew very early on at.
Speaker 6: Rock Creek that we wanted to do some some some
Speaker 6: different stuff that from a business standpoint and for an
Speaker 6: engagement with youth, that we needed to add a driving
Speaker 6: range and actually a part three course. And so very
Speaker 6: early on we realized that we were more going for
Speaker 6: in the style of Flynn than necessarily a strict restoration
Speaker 6: and gil uh you thought that was that was a
Speaker 6: great idea and came in and took a look and
Speaker 6: reworked a lot of the corridors basically that that Flynn
Speaker 6: used to create a nine hole sort of regulation length
Speaker 6: golf course, and then we use some of the quarters
Speaker 6: and green sites from the eighteen hole Flinn for for
Speaker 6: the nine hole part three, and then we were able
Speaker 6: to slot a driving range in close to the current
Speaker 6: current clubhouse. So it wasn't necessarily like we're going to
Speaker 6: go back to this year at Rock Creek. It was
Speaker 6: more of, Okay, let's let's use Flynn as an inspiration
Speaker 6: and use the corridors and green sites as much as possible.
Speaker 4: Like how many how many of the original flint holes
Speaker 4: can we get into a nine hole routing? And we
Speaker 4: got I think we have about seven corridors and green
Speaker 4: sites used in the nine hole routing that we're we're
Speaker 4: using as a working plant right now. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And for people that don't know about Rock Creek, it's
Speaker 1: obviously it's a huge park system within d C.
Speaker 2: It's one of the most beautiful places in d C.
Speaker 1: But one of the things with the existing golf course
Speaker 1: having been out there is that it you know, the
Speaker 1: site might be a little small for a modern eighteen
Speaker 1: hole golf course. So the feasibility of having eighteen holes
Speaker 1: there that are good golf holes is very low. So
Speaker 1: coming up with a non traditional or you know, new
Speaker 1: idea that would seem to be the place that fit
Speaker 1: the most as one that adapted kind of to modern times. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 6: You know, it's one hundred acres and very forested and
Speaker 6: there are some steep slopes, so it'd been really tough
Speaker 6: to get a sort of modern eighteen hole golf course
Speaker 6: back in there, even you know, until you know, the
Speaker 6: back nine has been closed the last few years because
Speaker 6: it's basically been overgrown and too hard to maintain. But
Speaker 6: even when the full eighteen was open, I think it
Speaker 6: was you know, a par sixty four fifty five thousand yards.
Speaker 6: I mean it has it was never a quote unquote championship.
Speaker 6: I hate using that term, but it was never a
Speaker 6: championship a golf course even when it opened back in
Speaker 6: the twenty Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then there is a road that was constructed through
Speaker 4: the property which chopped off two holes, so it got
Speaker 4: even small.
Speaker 2: I imagined.
Speaker 1: That's got to be an exciting one just for how
Speaker 1: much other recreation is going on around the golf course
Speaker 1: in the Rock Creek Park.
Speaker 4: Yeah. One of the things that we've been really focusing
Speaker 4: on again prompted by the Park Service, but also something
Speaker 4: that I think we both believe in is how to
Speaker 4: bring non golfers into the site in a way that
Speaker 4: makes sense. And Rock Creek's a really cool example of
Speaker 4: what's possible there because and again all this stuff is
Speaker 4: put caveat in front of everything we're talking about that
Speaker 4: it all has to be approved by the Park Service,
Speaker 4: but I think there's a great opportunity there to connect
Speaker 4: into the trail system that exists around the course and
Speaker 4: bring people into the clubhouse, give them an opportunity to
Speaker 4: stop for a beer or lunch, and just kind of
Speaker 4: get a sense of the scale of the place, which
Speaker 4: is out in an old open farm field and in
Speaker 4: the middle of a city, but you can't see anything
Speaker 4: associated with the city there. So it's got a really
Speaker 4: great feel. And right now it's generally only used by
Speaker 4: golfers when there's so many people using the surrounding park,
Speaker 4: and it'd be great to mix those uses more than
Speaker 4: they are currently.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's remarkable how many people, both golfers and non
Speaker 6: golfers alike, just don't know it's there, because while Rock
Speaker 6: Creek is a heavily used portion of the city.
Speaker 4: It just it just doesn't. It doesn't people.
Speaker 6: It's tucked away, so it's you don't drive by it
Speaker 6: and see it and say, oh, there's that. I want
Speaker 6: to go check it out. And that's going to be
Speaker 6: part of our challenges is to get people there. And
Speaker 6: I think it's such a beautiful spot and I think
Speaker 6: we can really open people's eyes to what in a
Speaker 6: minute it is can be for the old city.
Speaker 1: It kind of the potential reminds me a little bit
Speaker 1: of Audubon Park down in New Orleans, which I think
Speaker 1: is one of the coolest places because you've got this giant,
Speaker 1: beautiful park and you're walking along the path, like I
Speaker 1: went for a walk with my wife, who's not a golfer,
Speaker 1: and Audubon Park, and then all of a sudden you
Speaker 1: see golf holes and it's just neat to see people
Speaker 1: in golf intertwined.
Speaker 2: And I think it.
Speaker 1: You know, in Chicago we have it with Marivitz and
Speaker 1: we have the running trail that's right along it along
Speaker 1: the lake, and that is a neat aspect, even for runners.
Speaker 2: It's probably a nice break and scenery.
Speaker 1: I know I used to run by it, but I
Speaker 1: was a golfer, So I always had my you know,
Speaker 1: rubber necking out to the golf course. But so let's
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about each of the other properties.
Speaker 1: What with Langston, I know it's the it's probably the
Speaker 1: most functional golf course right now as it stands.
Speaker 2: What do you plan on, you know.
Speaker 1: From the aspect of improvements and then also what you're
Speaker 1: trying to highlight at Langston and bring to the forefront.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so Langston I think the our focus is on
Speaker 4: from a so there's two aspects of the Langston project.
Speaker 4: One is golf course focus, the other is community focused.
Speaker 4: So we're just talking golf course. You're right, the land
Speaker 4: at Langston kind of lends itself best as it currently,
Speaker 4: you know, sits to uh not a lot of changes
Speaker 4: to the course. I mean, what we're focusing on is infrastructure.
Speaker 4: There's a ton of deferred maintenance out there as well
Speaker 4: as just generally connecting the course to the river setting.
Speaker 4: It's the entire back well. A big chunk of the
Speaker 4: back nine is on an island in the Anacostia River
Speaker 4: and you wouldn't know it. You can't see out the
Speaker 4: sides of the property to the river, which is twenty
Speaker 4: yards away from where you are. So we've partnered with
Speaker 4: the Anacostia Watershed Society to do some work along the
Speaker 4: edges of the river to open up views. And it
Speaker 4: just so happens that all of the vegetation that's in
Speaker 4: the way of those views is, you know, or at
Speaker 4: least the vast majority is invasive plant material, and so
Speaker 4: there's a really good alignment from an ecological perspective to
Speaker 4: get rid of that vegetation and replant with something that's
Speaker 4: more native to the area, which both functions better for
Speaker 4: the environment and provides a visual connection to the river.
Speaker 4: So there's that aspect of just kind of emphasizing the setting.
Speaker 4: Then you know, obviously there's a whole bunch of deferred
Speaker 4: maintenance to the golf course itself, where we'll be doing
Speaker 4: work on greens and teas and bunkers. There's not as
Speaker 4: much work at Langston in terms of messing with the routing.
Speaker 4: The routing is pretty good, so it's really about improving
Speaker 4: the details of the course and infrastructure. And then the
Speaker 4: major component outside of the golf course for Langston is
Speaker 4: helping to invest in the the clubhouse and and other
Speaker 4: facilities to make the you know, the site an even
Speaker 4: better host to the community than it you know, currently is.
Speaker 4: In its past, Langston's functioned as a community center when
Speaker 4: it's been at its best, and we want to kind
Speaker 4: of emphasize those elements of you know, its relationship to
Speaker 4: the neighborhood and the city by providing you know, excellent
Speaker 4: facilities for for those for those types of functions.
Speaker 6: And maybe in in a pro post COVID world, not
Speaker 6: as simple, but you know, one of the things we
Speaker 6: might look at very from the very start would be
Speaker 6: to add sort of outdoor seating because so much of
Speaker 6: the community gathering point right now is inside and so
Speaker 6: you know what we're we're we're sort of assessing, assessing everything,
Speaker 6: and but our idea.
Speaker 4: Is to really focus on.
Speaker 6: Engaging the community and and polishing up the golf course
Speaker 6: rather than wholesale changes to the golf course.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and more than a lot of golf courses, and
Speaker 4: certainly it's kind it's unique in my experience with golf
Speaker 4: is that Langston has this as a you know, large
Speaker 4: number of people who go to the course every day
Speaker 4: and don't play golf, just hanging out around the clubhouse
Speaker 4: and being with their friends and people that they see
Speaker 4: on a regular basis, and that community is what we
Speaker 4: want to you know, foster and you know, it's something
Speaker 4: like we just talked about, it doesn't really exist or
Speaker 4: our Creek people don't come from around the area to
Speaker 4: Rock Creek. We'd like to make that happen, but that
Speaker 4: actually is already happening at lengths and we just want
Speaker 4: to you know, kind of preserve and improve that.
Speaker 1: Speaking of of that and the community and the social
Speaker 1: aspect of golf and and kind of we've touched on
Speaker 1: it briefly twice. Do you do you guys feel that
Speaker 1: golf could be a part of a larger effort for
Speaker 1: social reform in DC.
Speaker 4: Certainly. I think connecting there's a there's a real opportunity
Speaker 4: to do things that benefit you know, provide. I know
Speaker 4: it's kind of the buzzword now, but I think it's
Speaker 4: it's true, just you know, kind of looking at equity
Speaker 4: in the city and providing opportunities, you know, to people
Speaker 4: who need them. I think the golf courses can be
Speaker 4: real catalysts for you know, providing some of that for
Speaker 4: sample at you know, we we've been talking about caddy
Speaker 4: programs and things that you know, might be appropriate, and
Speaker 4: we've had some discussions with the Western Golf Association Evan
Speaker 4: scholars to put in a caddy program at the three
Speaker 4: courses and that leads directly to college scholarships as well as,
Speaker 4: you know, an income for kids in middle school and
Speaker 4: high school. And definitely think that that is, you know,
Speaker 4: just one aspect of something that we can do to
Speaker 4: both expose people to golf but also to you know,
Speaker 4: provide opportunities that wouldn't have existed otherwise. Yeah, I think,
Speaker 4: you know, I.
Speaker 6: Think one of the things you asked you asked earlier
Speaker 6: what we thought that of our plan resonated with the
Speaker 6: National Park Service, and I think our commitment to affordability
Speaker 6: and accessibility and.
Speaker 4: What was one of those things.
Speaker 6: And I think by keeping these places affordable and accessible,
Speaker 6: they will continue to be diverse places and melting pots
Speaker 6: where people come together over a common bond of golf
Speaker 6: or maybe just a common bond of being outside and
Speaker 6: enjoying a beautiful, beautiful space. So it's a challenge and
Speaker 6: we're excited by it, and it's going to be something
Speaker 6: we're going to be working on for decades.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk a little bit about the affordability and accessibility
Speaker 1: plans obviously investing a large amount of capital into improving
Speaker 1: these these properties, you know, keeping it affordable. Is it
Speaker 1: going to be something that is centered around local affordability
Speaker 1: with you know, a little bit more premium of a
Speaker 1: out of town rate or.
Speaker 4: Well, when it comes down to it, the courses are
Speaker 4: national parks, so they really are for everyone, even if
Speaker 4: they're going to be most heavily used by locals. So
Speaker 4: I don't I don't see a tiered pricing system in
Speaker 4: the future for these core is that that's not the way.
Speaker 4: You know, just if you take places that do that
Speaker 4: and do it successfully, and it's sort of it's all
Speaker 4: really great, you know where it's done. But if you
Speaker 4: take Tory Pines for example, and there are people coming
Speaker 4: from long distance, is a way to play the course
Speaker 4: at three hundred dollars a pop. You you have to
Speaker 4: cater to the person who's paying three hundred dollars, even
Speaker 4: if it is relatively affordable for locals. And I wouldn't
Speaker 4: really characterize Tory Pines as kind of the place where
Speaker 4: people learn golf, you know, it's not that kind of place.
Speaker 4: But the traditional role of the three DC courses has been,
Speaker 4: you know, as a gateway to golf for so many people.
Speaker 4: I mean, I can't tell you how many stories we've
Speaker 4: heard of people reaching out to say congratulations about this.
Speaker 4: You know, I learned to play golf at the Langston
Speaker 4: Driving Range and or the East Potomac Range and then
Speaker 4: graduated to the Red, White, and Blue courses there and
Speaker 4: just kind of work their way into golf. It's it's
Speaker 4: such a common story, and I think that that is
Speaker 4: at risk a little bit if you're if you're focusing
Speaker 4: on providing a high end product to some small portion
Speaker 4: of the users who come out to play the courses
Speaker 4: who just just fundamentally changes it. So our goal is
Speaker 4: to do kind of a straightforward pricing system that's the
Speaker 4: same for everyone for a lot of reasons, not just
Speaker 4: because it's a national park.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I love the answer there, and I
Speaker 1: think it's where so many communities and cities where you
Speaker 1: go wrong is where they get these big, far fetched
Speaker 1: ideas of PGA tour events and championship golf in the
Speaker 1: city and they don't realize that in the process they're
Speaker 1: taking a course that used to be very accessible, affordable
Speaker 1: and welcoming to beginners and turning it into something that's
Speaker 1: not any of those. And I think that's the magic
Speaker 1: of especially municipal golf and community golf within a you know,
Speaker 1: densely populated area, is the impact it can have on
Speaker 1: getting people into the game, getting people outside, being an
Speaker 1: escape from the from the you know, bustling city life
Speaker 1: as well as the world. You know, there's nothing quite
Speaker 1: when you've had a stressful day like going out and
Speaker 1: playing golf. It has this unbelievable soothing effect. So I
Speaker 1: think that's a you know, wonderful thing. The one course
Speaker 1: we haven't touched on yet is is East Potomac and
Speaker 1: you know, probably I don't know if this number is
Speaker 1: wise the most popular of the three courses at the
Speaker 1: current time, but a Walter original Walter Travis design. And
Speaker 1: I know, Mike, this is a near and dear to
Speaker 1: your heart. You wrote it your college thesis on this
Speaker 1: and we did a podcast about it almost a year
Speaker 1: and a half or two years ago now on the
Speaker 1: whole the golf course. But is the plan to return,
Speaker 1: obviously with Tom Doak being tapped for that plan to
Speaker 1: return it fully reversible or will it be eighteen holes
Speaker 1: played one way.
Speaker 4: Yeah. No, the plan is to return it to being reversible,
Speaker 4: and I mean it makes so much sense from a
Speaker 4: you know, a municipal course point of view in terms
Speaker 4: of spreading out wear and tear. I mean, you're right
Speaker 4: that the East Potomac courses are the are the most
Speaker 4: well used of the three DC facilities, and you know,
Speaker 4: if we do our job right it, you know, the
Speaker 4: courses would hopefully get a lot of play. And so
Speaker 4: the reversibility I think actually plays well with that in
Speaker 4: that you know, if you're playing in one direction one
Speaker 4: day and the other direction in the other on the
Speaker 4: next day, people walk in different places, spread out you know,
Speaker 4: wear and tear in a way that wouldn't be the
Speaker 4: case if if it was always played in the same direction.
Speaker 4: So there's a little bit of, you know, a confluence
Speaker 4: of good things with respect to the reversibility and put
Speaker 4: in putting that back to putting that back in place
Speaker 4: with the restoration. I mean, yea.
Speaker 3: I remember. One of the cool things I think we've
Speaker 3: touched on is that the the NPS did did their
Speaker 3: research and I remember reading when the RFP came out
Speaker 3: dove in and they had all this supporting material and
Speaker 3: cultural Landscape Inventory and cultural landscape reports and had their
Speaker 3: recommendations of what they thought should happen at these places,
Speaker 3: which was a great roadmap for us, and we were
Speaker 3: very happy that it ended up aligning very closely to
Speaker 3: what we envisioned. But I remember reading their recommendation that
Speaker 3: the reversibility of the of the Blue Course at East
Speaker 3: Potomac Park should be the reversibility should be explored, explore,
Speaker 3: putting it back in, and I remember reading it and
Speaker 3: calling up Mike and reading it to him and be like,
Speaker 3: I can't believe that they've gone that far. And that
Speaker 3: was that was huge for us because that was something
Speaker 3: that we cared about and we thought was really cool
Speaker 3: and unique and we're excited to try to make it happen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I know, you know Tom and and his
Speaker 4: team at Renaissance Golf, they have to be the like
Speaker 4: the world's foremost experts on Walter Travis in terms of
Speaker 4: golf architects. I mean, uh, Tom, you know has worked
Speaker 4: on a number of Travis courses including Hollywood and Round
Speaker 4: Hill and Garden City and you know, all over. But
Speaker 4: then also you know Tom building the Loop also has
Speaker 4: to be one of the foremost experts on reversibility too,
Speaker 4: So it's it's just a they couldn't be a better
Speaker 4: group to be working with, and they couldn't as far
Speaker 4: as I can tell based on our conversations with them,
Speaker 4: they couldn't be more excited about the opportunity to be
Speaker 4: a part of it too. So we have like a
Speaker 4: full set of Travis plans for the greens and bunkering
Speaker 4: around the course, and it's definitely set up well for reseration.
Speaker 1: For anybody, for any listener that might not understand, you know,
Speaker 1: I think until somebody really looks at a reversible golf
Speaker 1: course and maybe even experiences one like the loop, how
Speaker 1: does can you just distill in a very you know,
Speaker 1: maybe a minute manner, how a reversible course works.
Speaker 4: I think the easiest thing to talk about it or
Speaker 4: the greens. For the most part, the greens are approached
Speaker 4: from two directions. So what might be the back of
Speaker 4: the green on one day is actually the front of
Speaker 4: the green on the next day, because you're playing to
Speaker 4: it from the opposite direction. You know, at a place
Speaker 4: like East Potomac or in Saint Andrew's the routings are
Speaker 4: pretty out and back, so you really do get that
Speaker 4: counterclockwise or clockwise, you know, direction of the routing, you know,
Speaker 4: as you play out from the clubhouse and then back
Speaker 4: to it. If you want to just talk like one
Speaker 4: hole for example, if you're playing from on a normal day,
Speaker 4: you finish the first hole, the second ti is right
Speaker 4: next to it, and you play to the third green,
Speaker 4: and then you play the fourth hole. After that, coming
Speaker 4: around at East Potomac the next day, you'd be playing
Speaker 4: the seventh hole, you know, and then the eighth through
Speaker 4: the corridor that you just played, you know of the
Speaker 4: second to the back to the back of the first screen,
Speaker 4: and then back to the clubhouse after that. It's surprisingly
Speaker 4: hard to actually describe in words. You know, it's if
Speaker 4: you show one picture of it, it gets the point
Speaker 4: cross pretty fast. But when you try and like talk
Speaker 4: numbers and and you know how it would function in
Speaker 4: a kind of theory sense that it starts, it starts
Speaker 4: getting more difficult.
Speaker 1: And if somebody was just looking at it through the
Speaker 1: non reversible lens, playing one way, one day, you might
Speaker 1: see a bunker twenty yards off a tea box and
Speaker 1: be like, what what's this bunker?
Speaker 2: What's the point of this bunker?
Speaker 1: But that bunker is for the other hole playing in
Speaker 1: the opposite way, the coming off maybe the green that
Speaker 1: you just played, so it's neat. And then obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: I remember Tom saying on a podcast I did with
Speaker 1: him about the Loop that you know, from a maintenance perspective,
Speaker 1: the reversible concept at the Loop only added about fifteen
Speaker 1: percent to their maintenance bill. And you know from the
Speaker 1: where and tear that comes on a golf course, the
Speaker 1: reversibility helps it so much because all the divots and
Speaker 1: all the tea boxes are used half half as much,
Speaker 1: and you know where people are hitting. The common spot
Speaker 1: for te shots is separated by so much by different
Speaker 1: ways they're playing holes that it's you know, you get
Speaker 1: the golf course gets about half the wear in the
Speaker 1: in the big spot for and it's got two golf courses,
Speaker 1: so it's great for regulars because they get a lot
Speaker 1: of variety day to day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's a really cool concept and it
Speaker 4: really is the type of design choice that maximizes the site.
Speaker 4: Eddie Spotomac because it's a man made peninsula. It's it's
Speaker 4: extremely flat with a lot of ripley contours in the ground,
Speaker 4: but at the same time, you know, the best way
Speaker 4: to maximize that site and I know this has got
Speaker 4: to be what Travis was thinking at the time, was
Speaker 4: to build as much variety into the course by virtue
Speaker 4: of kind of turning it around and playing the other direction.
Speaker 4: And you can't do that on a really hilly site.
Speaker 4: It's got to be something that facility you know, allows
Speaker 4: for you know, visibility in both directions. And yeah, I'm
Speaker 4: sure he was thinking of Andrews and its reversibility when.
Speaker 1: When he was designing mm hm, so it And you know,
Speaker 1: I think we'll have probably a lot more discussions and
Speaker 1: as this process goes along, talk to us a little
Speaker 1: bit about where you are today. Obviously you're now into negotiations,
Speaker 1: but what that means and a realistic you know, what
Speaker 1: you think the next steps in a realistic timeline, uh
Speaker 1: for maybe one or you know, any of the projects
Speaker 1: to start.
Speaker 3: Well, we're we're if we can agree on a lease,
Speaker 3: we're we're taking over October first, and we're confident then
Speaker 3: that in some form or fashion will be will be
Speaker 3: operating in the courses on October first. People have told
Speaker 3: us that permitting and plan approval can take some time.
Speaker 3: With the National Park Service. And while our hope is
Speaker 3: to get going this fall on some work at Rock
Speaker 3: Creek and maybe some work at Langston with the Anacostia
Speaker 3: Watershed Society, you know that that that remains to be seen.
Speaker 3: And you know, unfortunately the timeline between our notification and
Speaker 3: when we're supposed to take over is pretty short, so
Speaker 3: everything's a little bit up in the air in terms
Speaker 3: of timing. But you know, our hope is to hit
Speaker 3: the ground running October first.
Speaker 4: And that's what we communicated to the Park Service. So
Speaker 4: I think everyone's on the same page about what we'd
Speaker 4: like to have happened. It's just a matter of going
Speaker 4: through the necessary steps to make it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it's a tight window. I've iagined it made.
Speaker 1: It was made tighter by the the UH coronavirus too.
Speaker 2: With everything kind of up in the air for a while.
Speaker 1: Beyond you know, a successful business from just your pure
Speaker 1: operations and great golf courses we've you know that we've
Speaker 1: discussed and improving them.
Speaker 2: Are there larger.
Speaker 1: Goals, uh and you know, kind of pie in the
Speaker 1: sky things that you hope that these projects achieve and
Speaker 1: the overall DC Golf achieves.
Speaker 4: I think that we've looked at this as an opportunity
Speaker 4: to show that architecture really matters for you know, for
Speaker 4: the success of public golf in that you know, really
Speaker 4: great architecture can be available at a reasonable cost. So
Speaker 4: that's just one goal.
Speaker 3: But the architecture matters in terms of engagement.
Speaker 4: Yeah, engagement of golfers.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, when people will come to the game, more people
Speaker 3: will stay into the game if you give them a
Speaker 3: product that is that is compelling.
Speaker 4: And the the other goal, which is not so pigh
Speaker 4: in the sky, but has kind of been driven home
Speaker 4: over the last week, as you know, we've been hearing
Speaker 4: from people who are hearing about the National Link Strust
Speaker 4: and this process is just we want to be really
Speaker 4: good stewards to these golf courses. They're they're so meaningful
Speaker 4: to so many people there justifiably on the National Register
Speaker 4: of Historic Places, and we want to make sure that
Speaker 4: what we do, you know, is the best thing that
Speaker 4: we can do for the properties and and make sure
Speaker 4: that they thrive going into the future. I mean, we've
Speaker 4: got we've got ideas that we think are going to
Speaker 4: make that happen, but but really just the amount of
Speaker 4: emotion and you know, uh, meaningfulness that people have attached
Speaker 4: to these courses makes it something that I know will
Speaker 4: and I look at and and I want to make
Speaker 4: sure we you know, take care of and foster into
Speaker 4: the future. That's not a the sky thing is just
Speaker 4: like so important to be doing, you know, what we
Speaker 4: can to to make sure that we do a good
Speaker 4: job and that you know, the best things happen out there.
Speaker 2: That's uh, that's great.
Speaker 1: I mean it's what every community probably would like to
Speaker 1: hear about, you know, people that are coming to take
Speaker 1: over their golf courses and run them. You know, simple thing.
Speaker 1: How can how can anybody help? Whether you live in
Speaker 1: LA or you know, if you're in d C. How
Speaker 1: can people help? Uh with you guys, And is there
Speaker 1: any opportunities for people to get involved with what you
Speaker 1: guys are doing?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: Uh, As any project like this, you know, money is
Speaker 3: always necessary, and so I don't want to sit there
Speaker 3: and say that's the only way to be involved, But
Speaker 3: an easy way to be involved would be to go
Speaker 3: to National Leaks Trust dot com check us out and
Speaker 3: potentially donate. We've got a couple of uh of merchandise
Speaker 3: items up there. If someone wants to show show the
Speaker 3: support as they go out and play golf or just donate,
Speaker 3: but you know, there there are. It's incredible how many
Speaker 3: people have reached out and saying how do I how
Speaker 3: do I get involved? And you know, please please reach out,
Speaker 3: send us an email, and we're we're trying to sort
Speaker 3: of sort through all that and you know at some
Speaker 3: point where there will be some some job opportunities, both
Speaker 3: with the National Links Trust and with with our management
Speaker 3: partner Truon, who has just been incredible from the very
Speaker 3: get go helping us through this process. So I really
Speaker 3: do think it's an incredible opportunity to be part of
Speaker 3: something that'll be great for the game of golf at
Speaker 3: the City of DC and hopefully, you know, municipal golf
Speaker 3: all across the country great.
Speaker 1: So thank you guys for the time, and congratulations again
Speaker 1: and and thanks from the Greater golf community. We can't
Speaker 1: wait to see what what you guys do in DC
Speaker 1: and I think it could have a massive impact on
Speaker 1: the on the game of golf and you know, municipal
Speaker 1: goth in the future.
Speaker 4: Thanks for all your support.
Speaker 3: It's been it's been fun talking to you over the
Speaker 3: last eighteen months about this project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1: I mean when you told me it was happening, I
Speaker 1: had to just kind of pinch. I was like, Holy cow,
Speaker 1: I can't believe that actually happened. So I think of
Speaker 1: I probably if you look back to the to the
Speaker 1: time of me and Michael did the first part, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I kind of.
Speaker 2: Was like, God, that kind of was fast.
Speaker 4: You know, It's true, it's true, it's it's been it's
Speaker 4: been a whirlwind in a in a really good way. Yea.
Speaker 4: Hopefully we're hopefully we're you know, five years down the
Speaker 4: road and we're looking back and saying, man, I can't
Speaker 4: believe how much we've accomplished, you know, in that time span.