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Speaker 1: Pushkin as a happiness professor.

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Speaker 2: Many people assume that I'm a beacon of optimism, that

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Speaker 2: I always look on the bright side of life, to

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Speaker 2: quote the Monty Python song. But some days I feel

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Speaker 2: pretty down about things. Some days it feels easier to

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Speaker 2: look on the bleak side of life.

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Speaker 3: Good childish nicknames, the crazy conspiracy theories, this weird obsession

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Speaker 3: with crowd.

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Speaker 4: Size, Please stick to policy, don't get personal, they get

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Speaker 4: any personal all night long of the.

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Speaker 5: Wa limited narrow view of the world made him feel

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Speaker 5: threatened by the.

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Speaker 2: I mean, politics and all the polarization right now, bleak, climate,

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Speaker 2: ridiculously bleak, racism, poverty, war bleak, bleak, super bleak. But

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Speaker 2: thinking about all these problems doesn't just make me feel helpless.

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Speaker 2: It also gets me super frustrated with the other members

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Speaker 2: of my species. Sometimes I just want to be like

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Speaker 2: fellow humans. Come on, might the only one who sees

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Speaker 2: all these problems? Might the only one who wants everybody

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Speaker 2: to stop yelling at each other on Twitter long enough

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Speaker 2: to actually start fixing things. Even just saying it out

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Speaker 2: loud makes me feel isolated and yucky and just blah.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing that you may have felt something similar. On

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Speaker 2: your worst days, like me, maybe you've wondered if there's

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Speaker 2: any way to fight all the division and disillusionment and despair.

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Speaker 2: This seems to have taken over our public conversation. Well,

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Speaker 2: you're in luck, because over the next few shows, we'll

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Speaker 2: see that the science gives us lots of reasons to

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Speaker 2: be optimistic about stuff that scares us, from politics, to

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Speaker 2: human nature to our capacity.

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Speaker 1: To change society.

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Speaker 2: We'll even learn how to transform our despair into positive action.

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Speaker 2: So buckle up, Happiness Lab listener, because we're on a

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Speaker 2: journey to find hope. Our minds are constantly telling us

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Speaker 2: what to do to be happy. But what if our

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Speaker 2: minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us,

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Speaker 2: leading us away from what will really make us happy.

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Speaker 2: The good news is that understanding the science of the

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Speaker 2: mind can point us.

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Speaker 1: All back in the right direction.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to the Happiness Lab with doctor Lauriy Santos.

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Speaker 2: I say, this is the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurry Santos.

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Speaker 2: But since this is a whole season about finding hope,

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Speaker 2: which I sometimes struggle with, I decided to ask someone

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Speaker 2: to help us on our journey.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Jamil how's it going.

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Speaker 3: I'm good.

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Speaker 1: How are you feeling better?

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Speaker 2: I'm still sounding a little froggy, which hopefully won't come

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Speaker 2: off too much in the interview. Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki

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Speaker 2: is the go to guide if you want to learn

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Speaker 2: why the world is kinder than the bleak vision we

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Speaker 2: often bring to mind. Over the next four episodes, we'll

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Speaker 2: be exploring some of the ideas he sets out in

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Speaker 2: his new book, Hope Procinics, The Surprising Science of Human Goodness.

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Speaker 2: Hope Prosonics is literally life changing. You should buy it

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Speaker 2: and read it. But the cliff note summary is that

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Speaker 2: we needn't surrender to the cynical view that humans are mean, selfish,

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Speaker 2: and hostile, because a bunch of research shows that these

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Speaker 2: notions are just plain mistaken. Now, Jimmil has been steeped

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Speaker 2: in the science for a very long time, so you

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Speaker 2: might assume that he'd be the most hopeful man alive.

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Speaker 6: For the last twenty years, I've studied and written and

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Speaker 6: spoken about human kindness and empathy, and I've sort of

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Speaker 6: become an unofficial ambassador for humanity's better angels. People often

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Speaker 6: bring me in to tell them about how great everybody

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Speaker 6: is and I love that work and I believe it

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Speaker 6: in my mind, but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean

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Speaker 6: that it makes its way into the rest of me.

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Speaker 6: And it's my job to think about and talk about

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Speaker 6: how great everyone is. But oftentimes I feel the exact opposite.

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Speaker 2: Any specific examples that have come up lately, like of

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Speaker 2: just the opposite of the milk of human kindness as

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Speaker 2: you look at that of.

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Speaker 6: The world, I feel cynical and hopeless about I'd say

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Speaker 6: six times a day thinking about current events. All I

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Speaker 6: have to do to feel terrible about myself or humanity

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Speaker 6: is just look at any of the screens in my life,

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Speaker 6: my laptop, my TV, my phone, even my watch does

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Speaker 6: the trick on occasion, and.

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Speaker 2: You're not alone. But this is something that I can

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Speaker 2: kind of reflect on a lot. As you know, I've

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Speaker 2: been kind of sick lately. I've like had a cold

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Speaker 2: and somehow like my main form of activity has just

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Speaker 2: been like peeking at my phone or like I'll just

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Speaker 2: go on Reddit, or I'll just see like what's you

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Speaker 2: know on my favorite news channel, and it just makes

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Speaker 2: me hate the world and hate other people.

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Speaker 1: It just makes me feel really terrible.

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Speaker 2: But it feels shocking that you could go through the

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Speaker 2: same thing you're supposed to know better.

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Speaker 6: I am supposed to know better, but so many of

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Speaker 6: us who are psychologists or behavioral scientists, we live with this.

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Speaker 6: We study part of the world. We try to understand it.

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Speaker 6: But again, just understanding something isn't the same as feeling it.

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Speaker 6: And I guess for me, over the last few years,

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Speaker 6: I became really curious about this cynicism. I was experiencing

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Speaker 6: feeling like the world was getting worse, like people were terrible.

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Speaker 6: And I thought, Laurie, about you, and about the themes

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Speaker 6: of the Happiness Lab and this idea that sometimes our

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Speaker 6: minds played tricks on us, and I thought, well, maybe

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Speaker 6: my mind is playing tricks on me as well. I

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Speaker 6: decided to figure out whether my cynicism was warranted, or

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Speaker 6: whether it might be wrong, whether it might be a

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Speaker 6: story that I was telling myself, and what that might

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Speaker 6: be doing to me and to the rest of us

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Speaker 6: who might be feeling cynical. I guess I learned a

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Speaker 6: lot in the process over the last few years that

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Speaker 6: led me to write this book.

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Speaker 2: Jamil decided to call the book Hope for Cynics. I

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Speaker 2: do sometimes feel scared about society and worry that there

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Speaker 2: are people out there who don't exactly have my best

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Speaker 2: interest at heart. But does that make me a cynic?

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Speaker 2: It feels like a strong word. In his book, Jamil

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Speaker 2: argues that is a disease of social health, a disease.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't I just basing my ideas on realism?

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Speaker 6: So cynicism is the theory that in general, humanity is greedy, selfish,

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Speaker 6: and dishonest, And like any other theory, this guides what

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Speaker 6: we do and what we don't do. So Cinics, for instance,

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Speaker 6: if they see somebody act kindly, they'll suspect that maybe

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Speaker 6: they're not genuine, maybe they're doing that for some ulterior motive.

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Speaker 6: They also act differently. So this is especially true when

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Speaker 6: it comes to trust. Trust is our willingness to be

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Speaker 6: vulnerable to somebody else on the expectation that they'll do

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Speaker 6: right by us. You are putting your well being in

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Speaker 6: their hands. Loaning somebody money or let somebody babies ait

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Speaker 6: your kids. It's a gamble, a social gamble, and cinics

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Speaker 6: think it's for suckers, so they're much less likely to

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Speaker 6: trust strangers, but even their own friends, families, and romantic partners.

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Speaker 6: So Cynicism is a theory, but it doesn't stay in

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Speaker 6: our minds. It leaks into the way that we live

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Speaker 6: and the way that we treat other people.

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Speaker 2: I know, when I first started thinking about cynicism, I

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Speaker 2: often thought it was really synonymous with skepticism. But you've

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Speaker 2: argue that these are actually really different. So what's the

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Speaker 2: difference between cynicism and skepticism.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, this is really important because I think your sense

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Speaker 6: that these two are the same is really common. A

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Speaker 6: lot of people, I think, view these terms as interchangeable,

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Speaker 6: but they are not at all. As I've said, cynicism

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Speaker 6: is a theory that people aren't that great. Skepticism isn't

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Speaker 6: a theory about the world or about people. It's a mindset,

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Speaker 6: an openness to new ideas, and a kind of restlessness,

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Speaker 6: an unwillingness to just sit with our assumptions. I often

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Speaker 6: think that cynics are a little bit like lawyers in

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Speaker 6: the Prosecution against Humanity, you know, the sort of they're

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Speaker 6: really keen on whatever evidence supports their theory, whatever clues

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Speaker 6: they can find that people are actually terrible, and they're

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Speaker 6: really dismissive of any evidence to the contrary that people

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Speaker 6: might be actually pretty great in some circumstances. Skeptics think

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Speaker 6: less like lawyers and more like scientists. They test their assumptions,

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Speaker 6: they look for data, and because of that, skepticism is

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Speaker 6: a much more agile way of viewing the world and

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Speaker 6: a much better way to learn about people and situations.

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Speaker 2: And so in some ways they're almost more like opposites

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Speaker 2: the way you describe it, right, the skeptics are really

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Speaker 2: kind of questioning their assumptions, whereas the cynics are really

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Speaker 2: set in their theories that, like, know, people are terrible.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I think that's right.

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Speaker 6: And in fact, if cynics have a lot in common

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Speaker 6: with anybody, it's with the naive rubes that they love

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Speaker 6: to make fun of. You know, Cynics think that if

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Speaker 6: you are not like them, you must just naively believe

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Speaker 6: that everybody's great, even if they betray you. And that's true.

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Speaker 6: Some people do have rose colored glasses on. Some people

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Speaker 6: do see only the best in others, even to their

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Speaker 6: own detriment. Those people, I would say, are also thinking

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Speaker 6: like lawyers. Lawyers in the defense for humanity's trials. So

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Speaker 6: I think that cynics and naive trusters are really both

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Speaker 6: thinking and looking at only one side of the evidence.

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Speaker 6: And again, skeptics are really different than both of them

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Speaker 6: because they don't trust their assumptions. They look for evidence.

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Speaker 2: It feels like these days that a lot of us

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Speaker 2: have joined the side of the prosecution. Like it seems

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Speaker 2: like a lot of us are feeling pretty cynical about humanity.

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Speaker 2: Are are there actually data about that? Do we know

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Speaker 2: if cynicism is getting worse?

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Speaker 6: There are, and cynicism has been skyrocketing over time. The

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Speaker 6: best proxy that we have for it is how much

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Speaker 6: people agree with the statement most people can be trusted.

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Speaker 6: This is a question that scientists have been asking Americans

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Speaker 6: and people around the world for many, many years, and

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Speaker 6: the best data we have are from the US, and

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Speaker 6: those data are pretty bleak. So in nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 6: about fifty percent of Americans believed that most people can

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Speaker 6: be trusted. By twenty eighteen, that had fallen to about

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Speaker 6: a third of a Mayora Mrians. The size of that

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Speaker 6: drop is comparable to the amount of money that the

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Speaker 6: stock market lost in the financial collapse of two thousand

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Speaker 6: and eight. So we are experiencing, in a real way

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Speaker 6: a trust deficit and a cynicism boom. In our country

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Speaker 6: and actually around the world as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's terrifying that as a huge drop. I

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Speaker 2: mean the other questions like what's that deficit doing to us?

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Speaker 2: Like how is it affecting us as individuals?

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Speaker 6: So I went through decades of data on this and

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Speaker 6: discovered that in essence, cynicism hurts us in every way

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Speaker 6: psychologists and social scientists and even physicians can measure. Cynics

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Speaker 6: tend to live much less healthy lives. They are more

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Speaker 6: prone to depression, loneliness, and unhappiness. They're also much more

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Speaker 6: likely to get physically sick, with everything from diabetes to

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Speaker 6: cellular inflammation to heart disease. They even die younger than

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Speaker 6: non cinics. Their relationships are also damaged by their cynicism.

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Speaker 6: So if you can't trust people, it's harder to connect

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Speaker 6: deeply with them, and you end up more isolated. It's

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Speaker 6: really tragic. If cynicism were appeal, it'd be a poison.

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Speaker 6: And Thomas Hobbes, one of the most famous cynical philosophers

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Speaker 6: in history, wrote that we needed laws to rain us

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Speaker 6: in because left to our own devices, human nature is nasty, brutish,

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Speaker 6: and short. I think that's the best cynical encapsulation. That's

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Speaker 6: like cynicism in one sentence, But ironically that phrase, that

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Speaker 6: sentence really captures the lives of cynics themselves better than

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Speaker 6: anybody else.

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Speaker 1: That's horrifying.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like it's terrible for individuals, but

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Speaker 2: my guess is it's also probably bad for society if

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Speaker 2: we're all going around thinking that everybody is, you know,

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Speaker 2: nasty and brutish.

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Speaker 1: Are their data there too.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, there's tons of data showing that at the level

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Speaker 6: of communities, whether those communities are families, companies, counties, or countries,

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Speaker 6: at all of these levels, a lack of trust a

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Speaker 6: general sense of disconnection and suspicion and harms the ability

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Speaker 6: of that unit large, small, enormous, whatever to thrive. So

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Speaker 6: I'll give you the example at the national level. So

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Speaker 6: countries that are higher in trust tend to grow economically,

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Speaker 6: Their people tend to be more civically engaged, voting more

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Speaker 6: for instance, they tend to donate more to charity and

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Speaker 6: help strangers more, and they tend to be less politically

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Speaker 6: polarized as well. If that's what trusting nations do, you

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Speaker 6: see where we're going what cynical nations do is exactly

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Speaker 6: the opposite. They shrink or stagnate economically, people bow out

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Speaker 6: or leave civic engagement and civic duties, and they're less

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Speaker 6: likely to engage with one another in pro social ways

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Speaker 6: as well. If you think of trust as a kind

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Speaker 6: of glue that bonds communities together, cynicism erodes that glue

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Speaker 6: and leaves us all feeling more alone.

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Speaker 2: And it also seems like that alienation must become a

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Speaker 2: vicious cycle, right. You know, if you live in a

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Speaker 2: cynical society, then you're getting more data that everybody's cynical.

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Speaker 2: It becomes easier to believe that everybody's brutish and hates you,

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Speaker 2: and that you shouldn't trust them. So these things must

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Speaker 2: get worse for communities over time too.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree.

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Speaker 6: And you see this self fulfilling prophecy all over the place.

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Speaker 6: It's not just at the level of large communities, but

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Speaker 6: even you see this in individuals' lives. So, for instance, cynics,

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Speaker 6: because they don't trust people, they'll treat them in all

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Speaker 6: sorts of ways that show that mistrust. For instance, if

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Speaker 6: they loan somebody money, they'll call them every day and

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Speaker 6: follow up with them or if they interact with friends,

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Speaker 6: they'll worry that their friends will disrespect them, so they'll

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Speaker 6: disrespect their friends preemptively. And these actions that cynics take

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Speaker 6: end up basically pissing other people off and making other

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Speaker 6: people feel angry and disrespected, and because of that actually

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Speaker 6: bring out the worst in other people. They say, I

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Speaker 6: bet these other folks will be selfish. I'll treat them

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Speaker 6: like their selfish. Then other people act selfishly and cynics

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Speaker 6: decide they were right all along.

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Speaker 2: I'm guessing you agree that this sounds awful. A lot

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Speaker 2: of us just assume we're approaching the world with a

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Speaker 2: healthy amount of suspicion, making sure people don't take advantage

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Speaker 2: of us. I never considered that I could be poisoning

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Speaker 2: myself or those around me. Why are we attracted to

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Speaker 2: cynicism and why are we so very blind to its dangers.

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Speaker 2: We'll explore these questions when the Happiness Lab returns in

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Speaker 2: a moment. Doctor jimil Zaki has likened cynicism to a

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Speaker 2: harmful disease. And what's worse, cynicism is spreading like a pandemic.

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Speaker 6: We've got this experience that is growing and it's creating

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Speaker 6: like this fractal of pain and dysfunction across our lives.

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Speaker 3: And as I.

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Speaker 6: Researched this subject, I found that they there are really

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Speaker 6: three myths about cynicism that I think promoted and propagated

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Speaker 6: things that we believe that make us think we have

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Speaker 6: to be cynical if we want to succeed in life

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Speaker 6: that turn out in many cases to be exactly the

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Speaker 6: opposite of the truth.

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Speaker 1: You're totally speaking my language at this, you know.

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Speaker 2: On the Happiness Lab, we love any case where our

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Speaker 2: minds are lying to us, and it seems like that's what's.

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Speaker 1: Going on too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yes.

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Speaker 6: So the first of these myths is that cynicism is smart.

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Speaker 6: So a lot of people I've talked with since working

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Speaker 6: on this project will tell me that they are cynics,

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Speaker 6: and they'll tell me this with a sort of bitter pride.

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Speaker 6: They say, well, yeah, I'm cynical and it might not

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Speaker 6: be fun, but hey, that's the price of being right,

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Speaker 6: you know. I don't get to just believe whatever I

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Speaker 6: feel like. I have to be a realist. And there's

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Speaker 6: this sense that in essence, by having this dim view

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Speaker 6: of other people, cynics are expressing a sort of hard

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Speaker 6: fought wisdom.

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Speaker 2: And it sounds like you're going to argue that this

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Speaker 2: hard fought wisdom is wrong.

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Speaker 6: Yes, But before that, I think it's worth saying that

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Speaker 6: cynics are not the only ones who think cynics are smart.

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Speaker 6: There's a bunch of research that finds that if you

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Speaker 6: ask people who do you think would do better on

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Speaker 6: a bunch of different tasks a cynic or a non cnic,

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Speaker 6: about seventy percent of people believe that cynics are smarter

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Speaker 6: than non cynics in general, that they would do better

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Speaker 6: at analytic tasks, for instance, and about eighty five percent

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Speaker 6: of people think that cynics would be socially smart, for instance,

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Speaker 6: better at spotting liars. So most people put a lot

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Speaker 6: of faith in people who don't have a lot of

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Speaker 6: faith in people. Say that three times fast, but it's true,

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Speaker 6: and it turns out that most people are wrong. Cnics

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Speaker 6: in fact, do less well on cognitive tests than noncnics,

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Speaker 6: and they're also worse at spotting liars. It turns out

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Speaker 6: that if you think everybody is on the take, you

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Speaker 6: don't engage in skepticism, you don't take the energy and

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Speaker 6: time to actually learn about people. So you end up

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Speaker 6: with blunt and often incorrect, black and white views of humanity.

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Speaker 6: So cynicism ends up being way less smart and wise

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Speaker 6: than we think it is.

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Speaker 2: And so that's kind of the first myth about cynicism.

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Speaker 2: It's not nearly as smart as we think. What's the

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Speaker 2: second one.

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Speaker 6: The second is that cynicism is a way of staying safe.

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Speaker 6: Is a quote from the comedian George Carlin that I love,

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Speaker 6: where he said, scratch a cynic, and you'll find a

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Speaker 6: disappointed idealist. I think a lot of cynics, whether they

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Speaker 6: seem like they have a lot of bluster in their

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Speaker 6: sneering attitude or not, actually are in recovery from some

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Speaker 6: type of hurt or betrayal.

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Speaker 3: I understand that.

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Speaker 6: I feel like, if people are cynical and they're listening

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Speaker 6: to this, I don't want them to feel like I'm

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Speaker 6: calling them out. I think a lot of us have

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Speaker 6: been disappointed and hurt in our lives, and it's actually

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Speaker 6: pretty natural to say, well, gosh, I was really hurt

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Speaker 6: before because I trusted somebody. I don't want to get

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Speaker 6: hurt again. The only way that I can avoid that

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Speaker 6: further pain is to close myself off to stop trusting others.

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Speaker 2: But you've argued that this isn't the right approach. You've

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Speaker 2: argued that this winds up causing a term that I love,

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Speaker 2: which is pre disappointment.

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Speaker 1: What's pre disappointment?

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Speaker 6: So if you think of disappointment as somebody hurt me,

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Speaker 6: and so my expectations of that person are now lowered,

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Speaker 6: pre disappointment is somebody hurt me, so my expectations of

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Speaker 6: the entire world are now lowered. It's like a sort

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Speaker 6: of psychological armor, or at least people believe it's a

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Speaker 6: psychological armor. They say, if I have no faith in anybody,

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Speaker 6: then they can't possibly hurt me. It's like a thick

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Speaker 6: skin of sorts. But I actually think that predisappointment is

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Speaker 6: less like armor that protects us and more kind of

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Speaker 6: like armor that suffocates us. Because when you don't have

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Speaker 6: any openness to other people, yeah, you probably won't get

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Speaker 6: hurt again, but you also won't be able to connect

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Speaker 6: with people. You'll miss out on so many opportunities for friendship, love, collaboration,

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Speaker 6: you name it. That all depend on our willingness to

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Speaker 6: be open. So I feel like cynicism and pre disappointment

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Speaker 6: are safe kind of in the way that house arrest

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Speaker 6: is safe. You probably won't get hurt, you won't get

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Speaker 6: run over by a truck, but you also won't ever

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Speaker 6: experience so many things that you might want to if

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Speaker 6: you just stay at home trying to be safe in

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Speaker 6: this really shallow way.

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Speaker 2: And this act of being safe seems like it's contributing

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Speaker 2: to this self fulfilling prophecy. If I'm cynical and I'm

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Speaker 2: kind of disappointed in everybody, and I assume that that's safe,

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Speaker 2: maybe it's safe, but it winds up never giving me

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Speaker 2: any opportunities to learn that that, hey, this is a myth.

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Speaker 2: People won't disappoint you as much as you think. You're

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Speaker 2: kind of prevented from any learning opportunities that might change

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Speaker 2: your mind.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 6: I mean, in nerdy terms. In the world of learning science,

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Speaker 6: this is called a wicked learning environment, where we expose

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Speaker 6: ourselves to evidence that supports one perspective, but don't ever

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Speaker 6: or get chances to see the evidence that would go

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Speaker 6: the other way. And I think that our minds also

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Speaker 6: are built to focus a lot on negative things that

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Speaker 6: have happened to us. There's all this work that I

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Speaker 6: think you all have talked about on what's known as

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Speaker 6: negativity bias. Bad events, bad people take up a lot

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Speaker 6: of our attention and we remember them more clearly as well.

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Speaker 6: I don't know if you feel this, Lorie. I feel

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Speaker 6: like any time that somebody's betrayed me or hurt me,

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Speaker 6: I can come up with a list of those events

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Speaker 6: from my teenage years at the.

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Speaker 3: Drop of a hat.

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Speaker 6: But if you ask me to tell you all the

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Speaker 6: nice things that people did for me when I was ten, twelve, fourteen,

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Speaker 6: I draw completely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Mine is always course evaluations, right, like you know you

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Speaker 2: did class with you know, over thousand students. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people say nice things, but the class, right, But

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Speaker 2: those two kids who said really terrible things. I could

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Speaker 2: quote it right now. I choose not to, but I

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Speaker 2: could quote it right now. Yah Know, the negative stuff

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Speaker 2: sticks in your brain in this terrible way.

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Speaker 3: I have the same thing.

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Speaker 6: It's always like one person out of five hundred his

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Speaker 6: that shirt was too much. But it's natural, it's really understandable,

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Speaker 6: and it's tragic.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 6: So again, I really feel for and resonate with people

402
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Speaker 6: who have been hurt and don't want to get hurt again.

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Speaker 6: I live that way. I have in the past. The

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Speaker 6: problem is that it's so easy to remember betrayals and

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Speaker 6: allow them to shape our lives. And when we do that,

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Speaker 6: we're actually letting the people who betrayed us retain their

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Speaker 6: power over us. We're kind of letting those negative experiences

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Speaker 6: win in a way. And again, I understand why that happens,

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Speaker 6: but I feel terrible when it happens to me, and

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Speaker 6: especially when it happens to other people.

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Speaker 1: So that's myth number two.

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Speaker 2: We assume cynicism is kind of safe, but it's the

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Speaker 2: sort of false safety that winds up hurting us.

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Speaker 1: What's myth number three.

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Speaker 6: Myth number three is the idea that cynicism is moral.

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Speaker 6: And I get this all the time. When I tell

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Speaker 6: people that I'm writing a book about hope, they often

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Speaker 6: have this knee jerk response, which is some version of, well, yeah,

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Speaker 6: you can write that you're this privileged professor at this

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Speaker 6: fancy university. You have this charmed life, which is, first

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Speaker 6: of all, you don't know me, but you have all

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Speaker 6: this privilege. And that's what hope is. Hope is a

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Speaker 6: privilege that is only reserved for people who are very lucky,

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Speaker 6: and in fact, that the world is pretty rough, especially

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Speaker 6: for people, for instance, who come from marginalized backgrounds or communities,

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Speaker 6: and that those people have to see the world for

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Speaker 6: what it is. They don't have the luxury of being

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Speaker 6: hopeful because they're affected by all of these larger structural

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Speaker 6: forces and positive thinking isn't going to fix any of that.

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Speaker 6: And in fact, there's this term hopewashing that when we

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Speaker 6: even talk about hope, we are telling individuals, through the

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Speaker 6: work of their own minds, to fix the world, even

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Speaker 6: though the world has historically hurt them in all of

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Speaker 6: these different ways.

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Speaker 2: But in your research you found that there's actually work

436
00:23:07,116 --> 00:23:09,356
Speaker 2: on this, like whether or not cynicism can help us

437
00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:11,356
Speaker 2: overcome it? You know, what does this work find.

438
00:23:11,316 --> 00:23:16,636
Speaker 6: That again, cinics see in real ways problems with the world.

439
00:23:16,756 --> 00:23:21,156
Speaker 6: I think if cinics, for instance, mistrust politicians, Gosh, that

440
00:23:21,236 --> 00:23:24,596
Speaker 6: actually seems pretty reasonable, right, if they think of things

441
00:23:24,636 --> 00:23:29,396
Speaker 6: like inequality or climate change and feel cynical about our species,

442
00:23:29,396 --> 00:23:34,996
Speaker 6: that's completely understandable. But the issue is that cynicism doesn't

443
00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:39,956
Speaker 6: inspire us to do anything about these problems. In fact, cinics,

444
00:23:40,036 --> 00:23:42,796
Speaker 6: for instance, are less likely to take part in social

445
00:23:42,876 --> 00:23:47,156
Speaker 6: movements or protests. They're less likely to engage civically than

446
00:23:47,396 --> 00:23:52,276
Speaker 6: non cynics, and I think because of this, cynicism actually

447
00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:56,436
Speaker 6: is a tool of the status quo. People like propagandists

448
00:23:56,636 --> 00:24:02,076
Speaker 6: and authoritarian leaders love it when people don't trust because

449
00:24:02,596 --> 00:24:05,516
Speaker 6: sure they might not trust me, the authoritarian leader, but

450
00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:07,956
Speaker 6: they also don't trust each other enough to get together

451
00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:11,116
Speaker 6: and do anything about it. This, so I think cynicism

452
00:24:11,556 --> 00:24:14,876
Speaker 6: might be moral in the sense that cinics see the

453
00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:17,836
Speaker 6: harm that is being done, but it's not helpful in

454
00:24:18,316 --> 00:24:20,356
Speaker 6: addressing any of those problems.

455
00:24:20,476 --> 00:24:22,836
Speaker 2: So it seems like we're getting cynicism all wrong, and

456
00:24:22,876 --> 00:24:25,316
Speaker 2: the fact that we have all these misperceptions about cynicism

457
00:24:25,356 --> 00:24:28,556
Speaker 2: winds up hurting us a lot. But yet cynicism does

458
00:24:28,596 --> 00:24:31,196
Speaker 2: seem to still be going up. Everybody is going through

459
00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:34,636
Speaker 2: this right now, and so what's the alternative? How can

460
00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:35,436
Speaker 2: we break out of this?

461
00:24:35,796 --> 00:24:39,316
Speaker 6: I've been asking myself that for this entire decade, I

462
00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:43,796
Speaker 6: feel like the twenty twenties, between COVID and so many

463
00:24:43,876 --> 00:24:48,356
Speaker 6: terrible events around the world, conflicts, and now this election season,

464
00:24:48,436 --> 00:24:51,116
Speaker 6: I feel like cynicism is like the mood of the

465
00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:54,516
Speaker 6: decade so far, and I've been wondering can we.

466
00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:56,116
Speaker 3: Do anything about it?

467
00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:58,916
Speaker 6: And it turns out that we can that there are

468
00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:02,396
Speaker 6: lots of tools at our disposal when we think more

469
00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:08,036
Speaker 6: carefully and act differently to beat back cynicism. And in particular,

470
00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:10,796
Speaker 6: there's an e idea that I've been trying to work

471
00:25:10,836 --> 00:25:13,116
Speaker 6: on in my own life and that I want to

472
00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:16,516
Speaker 6: suggest to people who are struggling with cynicism, which I

473
00:25:16,556 --> 00:25:18,316
Speaker 6: call hopeful skepticism.

474
00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:20,556
Speaker 2: And so what's hopeful skepticism? It seems like it starts

475
00:25:20,596 --> 00:25:22,356
Speaker 2: with hope, So maybe we should start there. You know,

476
00:25:22,396 --> 00:25:24,836
Speaker 2: what is hope? And how does it differ from cynicism,

477
00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:27,156
Speaker 2: or maybe even how does it differ from something like optimism.

478
00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:30,596
Speaker 6: This is another great distinction. So a lot of people

479
00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:33,396
Speaker 6: think that hope and optimism are the same thing.

480
00:25:33,596 --> 00:25:33,956
Speaker 3: They're not.

481
00:25:34,756 --> 00:25:38,476
Speaker 6: Optimism is the idea that things will work out well.

482
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,836
Speaker 6: It can lead sometimes to complacency. You know, if I

483
00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:43,796
Speaker 6: think that things are going to turn out great, I

484
00:25:43,796 --> 00:25:46,636
Speaker 6: don't have to do anything. That's actually pretty similar, by

485
00:25:46,636 --> 00:25:49,876
Speaker 6: the way, to cynical hopelessness. If I think things are

486
00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:51,916
Speaker 6: going to turn out terribly, I don't need to do

487
00:25:51,956 --> 00:25:52,636
Speaker 6: anything either.

488
00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:54,276
Speaker 3: Hope is different.

489
00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:58,996
Speaker 6: It's the idea that things could go well, that even

490
00:25:59,036 --> 00:26:02,196
Speaker 6: in the face of terrible problems, there is a version

491
00:26:02,236 --> 00:26:06,116
Speaker 6: of the world where things improve, and it's a sense

492
00:26:06,156 --> 00:26:08,716
Speaker 6: that I can do something about it. It's a sense

493
00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:12,996
Speaker 6: of a agency that there's meaning to our actions. So

494
00:26:13,476 --> 00:26:17,476
Speaker 6: hope is not optimism because hope is uncertain, just like

495
00:26:17,556 --> 00:26:22,156
Speaker 6: the future actually is, and in that uncertainty lives our

496
00:26:22,316 --> 00:26:26,596
Speaker 6: opportunities to act and live differently in ways that make

497
00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:27,636
Speaker 6: positive change.

498
00:26:27,876 --> 00:26:29,916
Speaker 2: I forget if you're a Marvel fan, Jamil, but it

499
00:26:29,956 --> 00:26:32,396
Speaker 2: makes me think of Doctor Strange, who's this like Marvel

500
00:26:32,476 --> 00:26:34,556
Speaker 2: character who can like do this thing where he like

501
00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:37,196
Speaker 2: simulates all the possible worlds and he's like, there's like

502
00:26:37,276 --> 00:26:40,036
Speaker 2: seven billion worlds where everything's really terrible, but there's one

503
00:26:40,076 --> 00:26:42,196
Speaker 2: world in which would you do the right thing, like

504
00:26:42,276 --> 00:26:44,636
Speaker 2: things are going to be okay. It feels like hope

505
00:26:44,676 --> 00:26:46,916
Speaker 2: is kind of like pulling a Doctor Strange, where you

506
00:26:46,996 --> 00:26:49,196
Speaker 2: like at least find some worlds where through your own

507
00:26:49,236 --> 00:26:50,596
Speaker 2: agency you can like fix stuff.

508
00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:53,756
Speaker 6: I was literally thinking about Doctor Strange, and I thought,

509
00:26:53,756 --> 00:26:57,036
Speaker 6: should I say Doctor Strange. No, it's too nerdy. It's

510
00:26:57,076 --> 00:27:00,196
Speaker 6: too nerdy. So thank you Laurie for this validation I can.

511
00:27:01,276 --> 00:27:02,916
Speaker 2: But yeah, but it's like it's like just like coming

512
00:27:02,996 --> 00:27:05,756
Speaker 2: up with some possible worlds in which things will be okay,

513
00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:08,036
Speaker 2: but then realizing that you can contribute to that, not

514
00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:09,316
Speaker 2: just like, well if I just sit on my but

515
00:27:09,396 --> 00:27:11,436
Speaker 2: that wonderful possible world will come up. It's like you

516
00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:13,156
Speaker 2: got to say, take some action to go there.

517
00:27:13,436 --> 00:27:14,436
Speaker 3: That's exactly right.

518
00:27:14,556 --> 00:27:18,036
Speaker 6: I think of hope as this magnet where there are

519
00:27:18,396 --> 00:27:22,036
Speaker 6: billions of possible worlds. I hope, unlike the Avengers, we

520
00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:24,596
Speaker 6: have more than a one in seven billion chance of

521
00:27:24,636 --> 00:27:28,476
Speaker 6: achieving a positive outcome. But you see this panoply of

522
00:27:28,596 --> 00:27:33,916
Speaker 6: worlds and possible futures, and hope sort of attracts you

523
00:27:34,076 --> 00:27:37,436
Speaker 6: to the ones that you want and pulls you and

524
00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:41,676
Speaker 6: your actions towards those positive outcomes. Right, And again, I

525
00:27:41,676 --> 00:27:44,676
Speaker 6: think that because of this, hope isn't just something that

526
00:27:44,716 --> 00:27:47,276
Speaker 6: we can turn to when things are going well. In fact,

527
00:27:47,596 --> 00:27:51,116
Speaker 6: research shows that hope is especially useful for people who

528
00:27:51,156 --> 00:27:55,596
Speaker 6: are dealing with major problems. Cancer patients, people towards the

529
00:27:55,796 --> 00:28:00,716
Speaker 6: end of their lives, students in lower socioeconomic backgrounds. In

530
00:28:00,796 --> 00:28:04,796
Speaker 6: all of these cases, hope pulls people toward the future

531
00:28:04,836 --> 00:28:08,116
Speaker 6: that they want and helps them live happier and healthier lives.

532
00:28:08,156 --> 00:28:10,716
Speaker 2: And you've advocated not just for hope, but a particular

533
00:28:10,756 --> 00:28:13,636
Speaker 2: brand of hope that you've called hopeful skepticism. Why does

534
00:28:13,636 --> 00:28:16,076
Speaker 2: the skepticism part need to be there too well?

535
00:28:16,116 --> 00:28:19,396
Speaker 6: I think that as we've talked about, skepticism is this

536
00:28:19,556 --> 00:28:23,796
Speaker 6: scientific perspective on the world. And as we've talked about,

537
00:28:24,276 --> 00:28:28,716
Speaker 6: there's this pervasive negativity bias that lives in our minds

538
00:28:29,036 --> 00:28:32,636
Speaker 6: that means that most of us pay much more attention

539
00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:38,316
Speaker 6: to cruelty than kindness, selfishness than generosity, and because of that,

540
00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:44,356
Speaker 6: we have this systematically warped view where we underestimate how trustworthy,

541
00:28:44,476 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 6: open minded, warm, and compassionate people are. What that means

542
00:28:48,556 --> 00:28:51,316
Speaker 6: to me is that when we are skeptical, when we

543
00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:55,996
Speaker 6: instead leave behind our assumptions and give people a chance

544
00:28:56,076 --> 00:28:59,356
Speaker 6: to show us who they are, then naturally we might

545
00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:03,956
Speaker 6: become more hopeful because we'll find pleasant surprises everywhere. We'll

546
00:29:03,996 --> 00:29:07,956
Speaker 6: realize that most people are better than most people think

547
00:29:07,996 --> 00:29:08,356
Speaker 6: they are.

548
00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:12,636
Speaker 3: Right in that, I think is a natural source of hope.

549
00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:15,236
Speaker 2: Later in this season, you'll get to meet some very

550
00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:18,796
Speaker 2: hopeful folks, people actively working to make their communities and

551
00:29:18,836 --> 00:29:22,316
Speaker 2: workplaces better. They'll share what they've learned about rejecting cynicism,

552
00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:24,716
Speaker 2: and they'll have plenty of ideas about how you can

553
00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:27,596
Speaker 2: become skeptically hopeful too. But when we get back from

554
00:29:27,596 --> 00:29:30,196
Speaker 2: the break, we'll talk to a scholar who's inspired plenty

555
00:29:30,236 --> 00:29:32,836
Speaker 2: of people to work towards a better common future.

556
00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:36,076
Speaker 4: I grew up when America was the maximum of we

557
00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:38,476
Speaker 4: society that we've ever seen, and my whole life has

558
00:29:38,516 --> 00:29:41,436
Speaker 4: been going downhill, and I really wish I could figure

559
00:29:41,516 --> 00:29:45,236
Speaker 4: out a way to reverse that, or at least pause it.

560
00:29:45,796 --> 00:29:47,516
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back.

561
00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:56,476
Speaker 6: The book that I have on my desk in my

562
00:29:56,596 --> 00:29:59,996
Speaker 6: office remains bowling alone like me.

563
00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:03,316
Speaker 2: Jamil is a big fan of the political scientist Robert Putnam.

564
00:30:03,516 --> 00:30:05,796
Speaker 6: It's one of the books that affected me the most

565
00:30:06,116 --> 00:30:08,996
Speaker 6: over the course of my career, and I think captured

566
00:30:09,636 --> 00:30:13,876
Speaker 6: this massive trend in our society to feel more alone

567
00:30:14,276 --> 00:30:16,556
Speaker 6: and to lose our sense of connection.

568
00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:19,156
Speaker 2: We spoke to Robert in our season about the importance

569
00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:22,476
Speaker 2: of connecting better. Robert grew up in Port Clinton, Ohio.

570
00:30:22,876 --> 00:30:25,636
Speaker 2: We're in the years after World War Two. People's lives

571
00:30:25,676 --> 00:30:28,916
Speaker 2: crossed and intercrossed every day. The richest and poorest people

572
00:30:28,996 --> 00:30:31,476
Speaker 2: in his town ate at the same diner, and teenage

573
00:30:31,556 --> 00:30:34,476
Speaker 2: Robert joined a bowling team with members from every neighborhood

574
00:30:34,516 --> 00:30:35,236
Speaker 2: in his community.

575
00:30:35,356 --> 00:30:37,116
Speaker 7: We did pretty well, we were not great. And there's

576
00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:41,276
Speaker 7: a picture that shows the team three white guys, one tall,

577
00:30:41,436 --> 00:30:44,036
Speaker 7: gangly guy in the middle, which was me, and two

578
00:30:44,076 --> 00:30:47,556
Speaker 7: black guys. And we did not think that was strange.

579
00:30:47,836 --> 00:30:50,476
Speaker 2: But when Robert grew up and began studying politics, he

580
00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:52,796
Speaker 2: realized the way of life he'd taken for granted in

581
00:30:52,836 --> 00:30:54,356
Speaker 2: Port Clinton was disappearing.

582
00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:56,636
Speaker 4: I didn't know it was special, and I don't think

583
00:30:56,636 --> 00:30:58,436
Speaker 4: it was all that special in America.

584
00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:00,516
Speaker 3: In the middle of nineteen fifties.

585
00:31:00,476 --> 00:31:03,516
Speaker 2: Robert discovered that many of the spaces where people regularly

586
00:31:03,556 --> 00:31:06,276
Speaker 2: met were closing. People were no longer taking part in

587
00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:08,916
Speaker 2: bowling leagues as he had. They were, as the title

588
00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:12,596
Speaker 2: of his book explained, bowling alone. Robert's book painted a

589
00:31:12,636 --> 00:31:15,276
Speaker 2: bleak picture of communal life in the late nineties. It

590
00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:18,156
Speaker 2: argued that if we continued to shun social contact, we'd

591
00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:20,716
Speaker 2: become sadder, lonelier, and less trust it.

592
00:31:20,716 --> 00:31:22,276
Speaker 6: It's a book that I keep on my desk that

593
00:31:22,316 --> 00:31:24,036
Speaker 6: also makes me depressed all the time.

594
00:31:24,636 --> 00:31:26,836
Speaker 1: But are we destined for this depressing? Lonelier?

595
00:31:26,876 --> 00:31:27,156
Speaker 3: Path.

596
00:31:27,516 --> 00:31:30,196
Speaker 2: That's the question Robert explored in his most recent book,

597
00:31:30,396 --> 00:31:33,796
Speaker 2: The Upswing, How America came together a century ago and

598
00:31:33,836 --> 00:31:36,596
Speaker 2: how we can do it again. The Upswing argues that

599
00:31:36,636 --> 00:31:39,356
Speaker 2: America in the eighteen nineties looks a lot like it

600
00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:43,596
Speaker 2: did today. Think inequality, conflict, and division. But people back

601
00:31:43,636 --> 00:31:46,996
Speaker 2: then hated feeling so divided, so they joined the very charities,

602
00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:49,836
Speaker 2: clubs and societies that peaked in the nineteen fifties.

603
00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:51,636
Speaker 3: Things in America were getting better and better.

604
00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:55,716
Speaker 4: We were economically growing, we were equal, we were taking

605
00:31:55,716 --> 00:31:57,836
Speaker 4: care of each other, we were attending PGA meetings, we

606
00:31:57,836 --> 00:31:58,916
Speaker 4: were focused on the Wii.

607
00:31:59,516 --> 00:32:02,036
Speaker 3: We were like this amazing country.

608
00:32:02,716 --> 00:32:05,636
Speaker 2: The Upswing was a revelation for Jamil. It showed him

609
00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:06,916
Speaker 2: that hope could prevail.

610
00:32:07,476 --> 00:32:11,276
Speaker 6: When I started working on Hope for cynics, I was

611
00:32:11,356 --> 00:32:14,956
Speaker 6: talking with a mentor of mine and bemoaning the rise

612
00:32:15,036 --> 00:32:18,076
Speaker 6: in cynicism and how it's hurting all of us. And

613
00:32:18,636 --> 00:32:20,636
Speaker 6: he challenged me, He said, you know what you need

614
00:32:20,676 --> 00:32:24,116
Speaker 6: to find is figure out is there any place in

615
00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:27,156
Speaker 6: the world, or any time in history where things have

616
00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:31,636
Speaker 6: gone the opposite way where trust has increased instead of decreased,

617
00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:37,076
Speaker 6: where people were able to form more coalitions and better,

618
00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:41,156
Speaker 6: stronger communities than they had in the past. And I thought, oh, gosh,

619
00:32:41,236 --> 00:32:43,756
Speaker 6: that's going to be hard, but I'll try. And when

620
00:32:43,796 --> 00:32:46,956
Speaker 6: I read the Upswing, I had this sort of epiphany

621
00:32:47,476 --> 00:32:51,076
Speaker 6: that wait a minute, that did happen. It happened right

622
00:32:51,196 --> 00:32:54,436
Speaker 6: here in the US. It just happened before I was born.

623
00:32:54,716 --> 00:32:59,276
Speaker 6: The first half of the twentieth century was this tectonic

624
00:32:59,436 --> 00:33:04,636
Speaker 6: shift where the country, because of all these progressive social movements,

625
00:33:04,796 --> 00:33:10,596
Speaker 6: became more interconnected, and trust rose to ritible levels, way

626
00:33:10,716 --> 00:33:12,996
Speaker 6: higher than they have been at any other time that

627
00:33:13,036 --> 00:33:13,956
Speaker 6: we've been measuring.

628
00:33:14,196 --> 00:33:16,636
Speaker 2: And so with that, hope you've put together this kind

629
00:33:16,636 --> 00:33:19,156
Speaker 2: of three part idea for how we can do it again,

630
00:33:19,276 --> 00:33:21,356
Speaker 2: for how we can reduce our cynicism and get back

631
00:33:21,396 --> 00:33:24,156
Speaker 2: to this hopeful skepticism that allows us to trust one another.

632
00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:25,516
Speaker 1: What are those three steps?

633
00:33:25,756 --> 00:33:25,956
Speaker 3: Yeah?

634
00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:31,036
Speaker 6: The first step is to think differently, to try and

635
00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:35,516
Speaker 6: adopt this mindset of hopeful skepticism. And I think of

636
00:33:35,596 --> 00:33:38,036
Speaker 6: that as happening in a couple of different ways. By

637
00:33:38,036 --> 00:33:40,356
Speaker 6: the way, I work on this all the time myself.

638
00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:44,116
Speaker 6: I try to do this through some tools that are

639
00:33:44,196 --> 00:33:48,796
Speaker 6: drawn from cognitive behavioral therapy. So one of them is

640
00:33:48,996 --> 00:33:51,476
Speaker 6: known as reality testing, but I just think of it

641
00:33:51,516 --> 00:33:56,316
Speaker 6: as fact checking my cynical feelings. Right, I personally often

642
00:33:56,556 --> 00:33:59,556
Speaker 6: find myself thinking things that are very uncharitable, you know,

643
00:33:59,596 --> 00:34:03,396
Speaker 6: about people who cut me off in traffic, or influencers,

644
00:34:03,476 --> 00:34:08,236
Speaker 6: not you, Lori, but other influencers. No, not you, of course,

645
00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:16,636
Speaker 6: and just people in general. And oftentimes that type of

646
00:34:16,716 --> 00:34:21,036
Speaker 6: chatter just goes on unchecked and drives our lives. And

647
00:34:21,116 --> 00:34:23,316
Speaker 6: lately I've tried to hit the pause button on it

648
00:34:23,436 --> 00:34:26,676
Speaker 6: much more frequently and ask myself, wait a minute, you're

649
00:34:26,716 --> 00:34:31,276
Speaker 6: having this thought, You're having these contemptuous feelings. Where are

650
00:34:31,276 --> 00:34:33,956
Speaker 6: they coming from? What do they mean? And I try

651
00:34:33,996 --> 00:34:37,156
Speaker 6: to basically use my life as a scientist in this way.

652
00:34:37,196 --> 00:34:39,556
Speaker 6: I say, well, if this was a hypothesis and you

653
00:34:39,596 --> 00:34:42,596
Speaker 6: had to defend it in a scientific paper or at

654
00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:45,676
Speaker 6: a conference, what is the evidence that you would marshal

655
00:34:45,756 --> 00:34:49,236
Speaker 6: in defense for this terrible thought that you're having about humanity?

656
00:34:49,276 --> 00:34:53,036
Speaker 6: And oftentimes I realized, wait a minute, I don't have

657
00:34:53,076 --> 00:34:56,156
Speaker 6: good evidence for this at all. So I try to

658
00:34:56,196 --> 00:35:00,756
Speaker 6: be more open minded, and I guess skeptical of my

659
00:35:00,876 --> 00:35:02,276
Speaker 6: own cynicism when.

660
00:35:02,076 --> 00:35:03,476
Speaker 1: I can a different thought pattern.

661
00:35:03,476 --> 00:35:06,196
Speaker 2: You've encouraged is one that you've called a reciprocity mindset.

662
00:35:06,236 --> 00:35:06,596
Speaker 1: What's that?

663
00:35:06,996 --> 00:35:10,796
Speaker 6: So we talked about these self fulfilling phes that when

664
00:35:10,996 --> 00:35:15,436
Speaker 6: I'm cynical, I treat other people in cynical ways, which

665
00:35:15,516 --> 00:35:18,196
Speaker 6: then brings out the worst from them, makes them more

666
00:35:18,236 --> 00:35:22,556
Speaker 6: selfish and untrustworthy. Well, it turns out that we often

667
00:35:22,716 --> 00:35:26,276
Speaker 6: don't realize that when other people act badly, it's because

668
00:35:26,316 --> 00:35:28,836
Speaker 6: of how we've treated them, right, We don't realize how

669
00:35:28,876 --> 00:35:32,796
Speaker 6: influential we are on other people. So a reciprocity mindset

670
00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:37,076
Speaker 6: is teaching people about the power that they have over others.

671
00:35:37,356 --> 00:35:40,916
Speaker 6: In fact, in my lab, we've tried to adopt this approach.

672
00:35:41,396 --> 00:35:44,876
Speaker 6: We taught some people in a set of studies that hey,

673
00:35:44,956 --> 00:35:48,116
Speaker 6: you know, if you trust others, they'll act more trustworthy,

674
00:35:48,156 --> 00:35:50,996
Speaker 6: and if you don't trust them, they'll act more selfishly.

675
00:35:51,116 --> 00:35:53,676
Speaker 6: And we find that when we teach people that they

676
00:35:53,716 --> 00:35:57,476
Speaker 6: think differently about others, they talk and write about more

677
00:35:57,516 --> 00:36:02,316
Speaker 6: of their responsibility in social settings to treat people the

678
00:36:02,356 --> 00:36:04,476
Speaker 6: way that they would want to be treated, and then

679
00:36:04,916 --> 00:36:07,676
Speaker 6: they do it more so. For instance, in our studies,

680
00:36:07,716 --> 00:36:10,836
Speaker 6: when we teach people about this cerprosity mindset, they're more

681
00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:16,196
Speaker 6: willing to trust strangers. And when people trust strangers, strangers

682
00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:19,916
Speaker 6: act in more trustworthy ways, for instance, paying back investments

683
00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:22,756
Speaker 6: more than if they're not trusted. So we find that

684
00:36:22,996 --> 00:36:27,356
Speaker 6: teaching people about their own power causes them to wield

685
00:36:27,396 --> 00:36:31,156
Speaker 6: it more responsibly in ways that are kinder and less cynical,

686
00:36:31,316 --> 00:36:35,156
Speaker 6: and that turns these sort of vicious, self fulfilling prophecies

687
00:36:35,396 --> 00:36:36,756
Speaker 6: into more virtuous ones.

688
00:36:37,476 --> 00:36:39,676
Speaker 2: And so that's a nice transition to the second step

689
00:36:39,676 --> 00:36:42,636
Speaker 2: that you've advocated, which is to act differently. Right, once

690
00:36:42,636 --> 00:36:45,316
Speaker 2: we start thinking differently, we can start doing stuff differently.

691
00:36:45,596 --> 00:36:48,556
Speaker 2: Any specific strategies you have for people to start acting

692
00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:52,236
Speaker 2: differently to engage their hopeful skepticism, Yeah, I think.

693
00:36:52,116 --> 00:36:54,876
Speaker 6: There's a bunch of ways to do this. So if

694
00:36:55,436 --> 00:37:00,036
Speaker 6: thinking like a hopeful skeptic means having to consider your

695
00:37:00,076 --> 00:37:06,076
Speaker 6: beliefs as hypotheses almost scientific predictions, then acting differently is

696
00:37:06,156 --> 00:37:08,876
Speaker 6: a matter of testing those predictions out in the real

697
00:37:08,916 --> 00:37:11,196
Speaker 6: world world. And there's a couple of ways to do this.

698
00:37:11,676 --> 00:37:14,076
Speaker 6: One that I've tried to do a lot more is

699
00:37:14,196 --> 00:37:17,276
Speaker 6: what I call leaps of faith, that is, taking small,

700
00:37:17,476 --> 00:37:21,876
Speaker 6: calculated risks on other people. Ernest Hemingway once wrote the

701
00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:24,156
Speaker 6: best way to find out if you can trust somebody

702
00:37:24,516 --> 00:37:27,356
Speaker 6: is to trust them, and I think that that's a

703
00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:32,276
Speaker 6: really powerful idea. I often, in situations where normally I

704
00:37:32,316 --> 00:37:35,196
Speaker 6: would be really guarded, have tried to be more open,

705
00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:39,036
Speaker 6: whether that's trusting somebody with a task in my lab

706
00:37:39,116 --> 00:37:41,676
Speaker 6: that maybe you know is a challenge for them, or

707
00:37:41,756 --> 00:37:43,916
Speaker 6: just opening up to somebody I don't know that well

708
00:37:43,916 --> 00:37:47,076
Speaker 6: about a struggle that I'm going through, And my cynical

709
00:37:47,156 --> 00:37:50,236
Speaker 6: mind often screams at me while I'm doing this, what

710
00:37:50,276 --> 00:37:53,116
Speaker 6: the hell are you thinking you're doing?

711
00:37:53,516 --> 00:37:54,196
Speaker 3: You're about to.

712
00:37:54,156 --> 00:37:57,236
Speaker 6: Be betrayed, And basically I just try to say, shut

713
00:37:57,316 --> 00:37:57,956
Speaker 6: up for a second.

714
00:37:58,396 --> 00:37:59,196
Speaker 3: I need to do this.

715
00:37:59,676 --> 00:38:03,876
Speaker 6: And I'm often shocked by the results by how much

716
00:38:03,916 --> 00:38:07,156
Speaker 6: people are honored when you trust them, how much it

717
00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:11,836
Speaker 6: strengthens relationships, how it's a fast track to a more

718
00:38:11,876 --> 00:38:16,276
Speaker 6: connected life. And I guess it's shocking to me how

719
00:38:16,316 --> 00:38:18,396
Speaker 6: shocking this is to me, given that I study this,

720
00:38:18,836 --> 00:38:20,876
Speaker 6: But I think that that's I'm trying to do it

721
00:38:20,956 --> 00:38:25,796
Speaker 6: more so that it can come more naturally. Because in science,

722
00:38:25,876 --> 00:38:29,196
Speaker 6: of course, when we test a hypothesis and find something out,

723
00:38:29,836 --> 00:38:32,956
Speaker 6: it updates our beliefs and our theories, so we can

724
00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:37,876
Speaker 6: use this real world social data to slowly incrementally update

725
00:38:37,956 --> 00:38:40,756
Speaker 6: our theories about the world away from cynicism.

726
00:38:41,156 --> 00:38:42,996
Speaker 2: And a final way to update our theories about the

727
00:38:42,996 --> 00:38:45,676
Speaker 2: world is to help other people update their theories about

728
00:38:45,716 --> 00:38:47,636
Speaker 2: the world. And that gets to your third step, which

729
00:38:47,676 --> 00:38:49,076
Speaker 2: is to share differently.

730
00:38:49,156 --> 00:38:49,916
Speaker 1: What do you mean there?

731
00:38:49,996 --> 00:38:53,636
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's again important to understand our influence

732
00:38:53,636 --> 00:38:56,636
Speaker 6: on other people. We can do that in understanding that

733
00:38:56,636 --> 00:38:59,236
Speaker 6: when we trust others, they're more likely to step up.

734
00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:01,676
Speaker 6: But we can also do that in understanding that what

735
00:39:01,756 --> 00:39:04,756
Speaker 6: we talk about also influences the way that other people

736
00:39:04,836 --> 00:39:08,396
Speaker 6: see the world. And if we talk in cynical ways,

737
00:39:08,436 --> 00:39:11,636
Speaker 6: if we only share information about the worst people doing

738
00:39:11,636 --> 00:39:15,716
Speaker 6: the worst things, we're sort of like the news. We're

739
00:39:15,716 --> 00:39:19,236
Speaker 6: giving people all the material they need to become more cynical.

740
00:39:19,396 --> 00:39:22,916
Speaker 6: It's a real instinct, just like we think so much

741
00:39:22,916 --> 00:39:25,916
Speaker 6: about bad things in the world to talk about those things,

742
00:39:26,036 --> 00:39:28,756
Speaker 6: and it's again an instinct that we can fight. I've

743
00:39:28,836 --> 00:39:31,996
Speaker 6: tried to do this, especially with my kids. I sort

744
00:39:32,036 --> 00:39:35,516
Speaker 6: of noticed that, even though I try to be positive

745
00:39:35,556 --> 00:39:38,316
Speaker 6: around them, when my wife and I are talking about,

746
00:39:38,396 --> 00:39:41,596
Speaker 6: you know, some corporation or something in the news or

747
00:39:41,636 --> 00:39:44,556
Speaker 6: even inconveniences that we face in our day to day lives,

748
00:39:44,556 --> 00:39:48,356
Speaker 6: we end up being pretty negative. And so I started

749
00:39:48,396 --> 00:39:50,756
Speaker 6: trying to do this thing with my kids that I

750
00:39:50,796 --> 00:39:55,116
Speaker 6: call social savoring. That is, if I notice somebody doing

751
00:39:55,156 --> 00:40:00,356
Speaker 6: something positive, I try to pause and recognize it and

752
00:40:00,396 --> 00:40:02,756
Speaker 6: then tell them, hey, look, did you see that this

753
00:40:02,836 --> 00:40:06,836
Speaker 6: person helped a stranger who was struggling? Can you see

754
00:40:06,876 --> 00:40:10,756
Speaker 6: these people picking up litter on the streets? And in

755
00:40:10,796 --> 00:40:14,836
Speaker 6: all of these cases, social savoring has a I hope,

756
00:40:15,196 --> 00:40:18,516
Speaker 6: helped them plug into this more positive view of people.

757
00:40:18,756 --> 00:40:21,316
Speaker 6: But it's also helped me, because of course, what you

758
00:40:21,436 --> 00:40:24,676
Speaker 6: say to other people changes what you think about. In

759
00:40:25,036 --> 00:40:28,196
Speaker 6: looking for examples of positivity that I could share with

760
00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:31,396
Speaker 6: them in this sort of positive gossip, that sort of

761
00:40:31,436 --> 00:40:34,516
Speaker 6: popped an antenna out of my mind that caused me

762
00:40:34,796 --> 00:40:39,276
Speaker 6: to look for and really quite easily find many people

763
00:40:39,356 --> 00:40:41,076
Speaker 6: acting in positive ways myself.

764
00:40:41,396 --> 00:40:43,356
Speaker 1: And so have all of these things helped you?

765
00:40:43,436 --> 00:40:45,156
Speaker 2: I mean it sounds like you're putting all this stuff

766
00:40:45,156 --> 00:40:48,036
Speaker 2: into practice, which is awesome, Like has it actually changed

767
00:40:48,036 --> 00:40:49,396
Speaker 2: your level of cynicism?

768
00:40:49,436 --> 00:40:51,356
Speaker 1: Has it changed how happy you feel? Generally?

769
00:40:52,276 --> 00:40:55,716
Speaker 6: I think of this as really quite connected to how

770
00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:59,796
Speaker 6: you have experienced a lot of these happiness interventions. I

771
00:40:59,836 --> 00:41:02,396
Speaker 6: know you do a lot of these things to try

772
00:41:02,436 --> 00:41:04,636
Speaker 6: to tap into the science, and I know for you

773
00:41:04,996 --> 00:41:07,436
Speaker 6: it works a lot of the times. And that doesn't

774
00:41:07,436 --> 00:41:08,276
Speaker 6: mean that it's perfect.

775
00:41:08,396 --> 00:41:10,676
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's helped a lot, but that doesn't mean

776
00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:13,436
Speaker 2: I'm like happy all the time. Right, I'm guessing that's

777
00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:16,636
Speaker 2: exactly what's happening with cynicism for you, that less an

778
00:41:16,676 --> 00:41:19,436
Speaker 2: isth goal but not a perfect hopeful skeptic just.

779
00:41:19,516 --> 00:41:21,676
Speaker 3: Yet you're guessing correctly. Yeah, that's right.

780
00:41:22,036 --> 00:41:26,196
Speaker 6: I mean I think of myself as a recovering cynic

781
00:41:26,676 --> 00:41:29,236
Speaker 6: you know. I don't think of myself as some person

782
00:41:29,236 --> 00:41:31,796
Speaker 6: who's figured it all out and here to share. I'm

783
00:41:31,836 --> 00:41:35,676
Speaker 6: in the struggle with so many other people, and these

784
00:41:35,676 --> 00:41:40,796
Speaker 6: are instincts there, knee jerk responses, and we need to

785
00:41:40,836 --> 00:41:41,756
Speaker 6: fight them actively.

786
00:41:41,916 --> 00:41:42,076
Speaker 5: You know.

787
00:41:42,116 --> 00:41:43,956
Speaker 6: I think of cynicism as a sort of being on

788
00:41:43,996 --> 00:41:46,316
Speaker 6: a treadmill. If you stand still, you're going to get

789
00:41:46,356 --> 00:41:49,796
Speaker 6: pulled backwards. So it's this kind of constant effort to

790
00:41:49,916 --> 00:41:53,836
Speaker 6: move forward against the grain of what our minds tend

791
00:41:53,876 --> 00:41:56,476
Speaker 6: to do. It's a struggle. It's something that I work

792
00:41:56,516 --> 00:41:59,156
Speaker 6: on all the time and probably will for the rest

793
00:41:59,156 --> 00:41:59,596
Speaker 6: of my life.

794
00:41:59,916 --> 00:42:01,236
Speaker 1: But it's such an important struggle.

795
00:42:01,236 --> 00:42:03,356
Speaker 2: I feel like, especially right now, everything we see in

796
00:42:03,396 --> 00:42:05,716
Speaker 2: the news is something that just like pulls me into

797
00:42:05,796 --> 00:42:08,516
Speaker 2: this like hopelessness spiral because it just feels like the

798
00:42:08,636 --> 00:42:11,116
Speaker 2: kind of ad that we all need so much right now.

799
00:42:11,156 --> 00:42:13,956
Speaker 2: So would you be willing to help us out even more?

800
00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:17,036
Speaker 2: Maybe we could take a hopeful Skeptics lens to so

801
00:42:17,116 --> 00:42:19,636
Speaker 2: much of what's going on on the planet right now.

802
00:42:19,876 --> 00:42:21,076
Speaker 1: Would it be gamed to come along?

803
00:42:21,276 --> 00:42:21,436
Speaker 2: Oh?

804
00:42:21,796 --> 00:42:25,876
Speaker 3: I thought you'd never ask. Of course I would love

805
00:42:25,916 --> 00:42:26,796
Speaker 3: that awesome.

806
00:42:26,876 --> 00:42:29,236
Speaker 2: Well, on the next episode of the Happiness Lab, we

807
00:42:29,276 --> 00:42:32,076
Speaker 2: will continue tackling what we can do to reduce our

808
00:42:32,276 --> 00:42:35,996
Speaker 2: painful cynicism and develop a hopeful skeptics Lens. We're going

809
00:42:36,036 --> 00:42:38,596
Speaker 2: to be doing a deeper dive across three more episodes

810
00:42:38,596 --> 00:42:40,876
Speaker 2: where we'll be talking about this and all that will

811
00:42:40,876 --> 00:42:43,396
Speaker 2: happen next time on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor

812
00:42:43,436 --> 00:42:44,636
Speaker 2: Lauriy Santos.

813
00:42:44,276 --> 00:42:46,876
Speaker 3: And me doctor Jamal Zaki.

814
00:42:49,476 --> 00:42:50,876
Speaker 1: You sounded kind of skeptical.

815
00:42:51,316 --> 00:42:53,236
Speaker 3: Oh really, okay, let me do it again. Let me

816
00:42:53,236 --> 00:42:53,636
Speaker 3: do it again.

817
00:42:53,876 --> 00:42:55,916
Speaker 2: All that next time on the Happiness Lab would be

818
00:42:56,036 --> 00:42:57,836
Speaker 2: doctor Lauriy Santos.

819
00:42:57,276 --> 00:43:00,316
Speaker 3: And me doctor Jamial Zaki. Okay, okay, that was better.

820
00:43:00,596 --> 00:43:02,036
Speaker 1: No no, we did we did it. We did it,

821
00:43:02,036 --> 00:43:14,676
Speaker 1: we did it. Yeah,