1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and this is Bridget and you're 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: listening to stuff Mom never told you. In today's episode 3 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: is around a topic that I think we all might 4 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: have a little experience with. Nipples, you know, things on 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: your chest, right, I mean, what's interesting is that we 6 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: all have them. It's this thing that we all have. 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: Yet you might be surprised to find that nipples are legislated, 8 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: Nipples are argued about, Nipples are banned from various social 9 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: media platforms. There have been people advocating to free the nipples, 10 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: you know, have your nipples be loud and crowd displayed. 11 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: And so today we're gonna be diving into the weeds 12 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: of these things on our chest, why they can cause 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: such an uproar, and what really about it? Yeah, they're titterling, 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: one might even say. So. I was actually quite surprised. 15 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: This is not an issue that I think about a lot. 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: I tend to keep my shirt on when I'm in 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: public for the most part, so it's not an issue 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: that I thought about until sort of thinking about how 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: strange it was that a friend of mine who posted 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: a picture on social media of her breastfeeding, that picture 21 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: was taken down and she put it back up on 22 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: social media, and then her Facebook page was banned. She 23 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: was temporarily banned from Facebook because of this image. It 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: was kind of a while ago. Facebook has sensed, i think, 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: shifted their um policies, their nipple policies a little bit. 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: But I found that to be so strange, and I 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: mostly just thought it was interesting how we have this 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 1: big up for over you know, these two little bits 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: of skin, right, And it's definitely got some cross sections 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: when it comes to gender. Obviously plays a huge role 31 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: in this, because we must be explicit in mentioning that 32 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: men's nipples don't get removed from Instagram or Facebook. Men 33 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: can walk around topless today, although we're gonna talk about 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: how that wasn't always the case without getting arrested, without 35 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 1: causing up. And yet there's also an element of motherhood 36 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting here, right. The functional use of 37 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: nipples is somehow more tolerable in the public space than 38 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: the none functional. Like we're fine if it's sexualized, if 39 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: it's a sexualized woman's body, we're less fine if it's 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: if it's like it's not, it's not the same thing. 41 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: We're not we're not thinking about it in the same way. Um, 42 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: I remember being maybe I was nine and I have 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: I have brothers and male cousins and all of that. 44 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: I remember we had gone to the park and we 45 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,799 Speaker 1: were all my dad used to do this thing where 46 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: he would let us run through the sprinklers when he 47 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: was nice. And I remember on the way back, you know, 48 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: it's summertime, our shirts were all clammy and wet, and 49 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: my cousins and my brotherhood they'd all taken their shirts off, 50 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: and I remember thinking, oh, like, well I should take 51 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: And then you know, I was a kid. I was 52 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: very flat chested, so I must have been like nine, okay, 53 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: so like not much going on upstairs, and when I 54 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: took my shirt off, it was like so quickly apparent 55 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: that I had made a huge error in and you know, 56 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: we didn't we didn't look that different, like my cousin, 57 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: my brother like like shirt, let's be pretty much all 58 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: looked the same. Yet for me it was clearly I 59 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: had made a huge mistake. Like I think it was 60 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: okay until you. I think, as as women, perhaps we 61 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: hit an age where it becomes not interesting at six, eight, 62 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: nine year old girls or whatever it might be, and 63 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: maybe it's from birth. In some families, it is already 64 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: you are already aware in the back seat, when you're 65 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: wearing an uncomfortably clammy shirt, you're already being told that 66 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: it is not okay for your little child nipples to 67 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: be out next the little boy nipples. Isn't that fascinating 68 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: even though you, I mean, for a lot of women, 69 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: they don't look that much different, like if you had 70 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: a nine year old boy up against nine year old girl. 71 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: For at least for me, I mean today, that's true 72 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: for a lot of us. Lady, it's not even the 73 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: It's the perception, right, isn't it. It's the gender. It's 74 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: gender that differentiates whether or not that's okay completely. So 75 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: this issue is a complicated one because it deals with law, 76 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: and so many of these laws are different state by state. 77 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: And disclaimer, we're not attorney. I am not a lawyer. 78 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: This is not let's down, this is not legal advice. 79 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: So please don't be like, oh, well, I listened to 80 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: this podcast and they said it was illegal for me 81 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: to be topless. Don't use that as a court defense. 82 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: That will not hold up. Um. And so it's interesting 83 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: that a lot of states, they differ in the laws 84 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: of how this is treated, Like, for instance, Arizona, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois, 85 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: New York, South Carolina, Utah, Virginia, and Washington are the 86 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: only states in the United States whose laws expressly differentiate 87 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: breastfeeding from acts of public lewdness, right, And so those 88 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: are the only states where if you were feeding a 89 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 1: child in public and if you were you know, being 90 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: like lewed quote unquote in public, they would see those 91 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: differently legally. So this is an issue that you know, 92 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: if you craw supporder can be one way in one state, 93 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: can be another way in another state. UM. There are 94 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: actually communities of folks who have been advocating for public 95 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: toplessness like laws to be changed to kind of really 96 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: aggressively chart how it plays out in different states. So 97 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: if you want to know the legality of whether or 98 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: not you can go topless in your city or your state, 99 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: you can go to go topless dot org because they 100 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: are very meticulously charting the legality down to like different 101 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: subdivisions and things, um of where you can go topless 102 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: with a woman and where you can So not only 103 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: is this a modern day legal cluster something I can't 104 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: completely say on this podcast, but it's it's you know, 105 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: it's such a clear reflection of America's discomfort and difference 106 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: in opinions over nipples, whether they're on a man, man's 107 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: body or a woman's body. But then actually went through 108 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: the same fight back in the nineteen thirties, which you 109 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: can read more about Things to the marvelous former host 110 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: and founder starter of this incredible podcast, Kristin Conger, writing 111 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: for Stuff Mom Never Told You dot Com. You can 112 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: find it on the blog. She wowed a great article 113 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: about how American men won the right to go topless, 114 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: and in fact, in the nineteen thirties, there were lots 115 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: of laws saying that male you know, toplessness, male nudity 116 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: on the top was just as lewd as women. But 117 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: when we started hitting the beach a bit more and 118 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: bathing suits became a thing, there were there was a 119 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: brief fight to free the nipple for men. And that 120 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: brief fight was one swiftly in the in the courts, legally, 121 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: and in the nineteen thirties nip male nipples really had 122 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: their heyday on the silver screen. Kristen Wright, Olympian Johnny 123 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: Wisemoller wore nothing but a loincloth in Tarzan and the Apes. 124 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: Two years later, Clark Gable impressively sidestep the Haze Codes, 125 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: which were the laws outlawing male nipples in for public display, 126 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: with his famous undressing monologue to Claudette Colbert Colbert, and 127 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: it happened one night. So it's interesting how men's undershirts 128 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: even fell after the film's release. And these sort of 129 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: male swimmers uh and Coney Island sort of daringly flaunting 130 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: their nipples, bucking the laws, bucking the shirtlessness bands. Uh. 131 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: And finally, after a series of fines and some advocacy 132 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: on this issue, a judge overturned New York States male 133 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: shirtless band in seven So male nips won the right 134 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,119 Speaker 1: to be on display in a short seven year legal 135 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: battle in a lot of ways, and male nipples were 136 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: here to stay. And I think it's interesting that, like 137 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: as it goes with many issues, women of course, are 138 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: kind of just catching up. You know, we're not even 139 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: held back, right, Like, I mean, it's not like we 140 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: we don't want that, right, I mean, it's it's just 141 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: like and also here's the thing people will say, and 142 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: I remember when I was first getting hip to this issue, 143 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: women's boobs are different boobs or sex objects. Boobs are 144 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: sexual in nature when they're on a woman, and reality 145 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: is is we've made them sexual, right, And again, I mean, 146 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: I just think it's very interesting and doing a little 147 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: bit of research for this this episode one when you 148 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: think about how many sexualized images we see all the time, 149 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: and that we've pack Hamburger commercials, commercials, and we've taken 150 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: like like that somehow is okay. But you know, when 151 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: you're like feeding a child or something in public like that, 152 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: it's not okay. Like I find that to be kind 153 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: of fascinating and also just nonsensical. It seems so arbitrary 154 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: how we've how we've gotten ourselves into kind of a 155 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: moral panic around something that should be so natural. And 156 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, and every other part of your breast being 157 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: out is fine under boob side, boob top, boob cleavage. 158 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: We we love it all until you sho isn't it 159 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: Janelle Money who in her song Yoga says you cannot 160 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: police me, so get off my ariolas, Like just that 161 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: one part of your breast becomes not acceptable anymore. Then 162 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: you're like you can be arrested. Yeah, And and and 163 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: I think what's interesting again, is some of the legal 164 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: information out there around nipples um. The late Supreme Court 165 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: Justice Scalia in this landmark nine Supreme Court case Barnes 166 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: versus the Glenn Theater Uh. It concerned the First Amendment 167 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: and whether or not the government could outlaw certain forms 168 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: of expressive content if it involved public mudity. And so 169 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: in this ruling, which was like a landmark kind of case, 170 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: Scalia found that or he ruled that public mudity was 171 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: a just as a moral and lumped it alongside things 172 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: like drug use, cock fighting, beast reality. Would you think 173 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: of as when we say cock fighting, we're talking about 174 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: roosters to thank you for that, We're talking acts there 175 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: anything um? But yeah, And so he lumped public mudity 176 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: or along with those like things that you think of 177 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: as as um, you know, things you shouldn't be doing. 178 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: And another another judge he ruled that public mudity was 179 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: connected to arise in sexual assaults and things like other 180 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: kind of like you know, illegal behavior. And what's interesting 181 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: is that I couldn't find any research that showed those 182 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: two things were connected, that public mudity and arise in 183 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 1: sexual assaults? Were they very well? May they very well? Maybe? 184 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: But I couldn't find anything around that um And yeah, 185 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: I found that very interesting too, because when you look 186 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: at these individual cases where people are cited by police 187 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: for public nudity, they often times go back to this 188 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: idea of like, oh, well, we need to prevent traffic accidents, 189 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: so we can't have women out here topless. And in 190 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: one New Hampshire town they actually the reason why they 191 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: put a public nudity ban on the books in the 192 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: first place was because they were having a big motorcycle 193 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: um like motorcycle event where loss of motorcyclists were coming in. Yeah, 194 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, well, we can't have motorcyclists, 195 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,599 Speaker 1: you know, we kind of women showing their boobs to 196 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: motorcycles and causing accidents. Just for the record, I've been 197 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: to an East Sturgist rally. It's a long story, is 198 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: too why that is a thing that has happened. But 199 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: I went to one in Virginia and guess what, all 200 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: the men were positioning themselves on the side of the 201 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: road and sort of fake not allowing people to pass 202 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: until the women did show them their boobs. So there 203 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: were some signs at those festivals saying show us your tits, 204 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: raise your tops and women everywhere we're doing it. Raise 205 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: your top I did not, you know why, because if 206 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go topless, I'm gonna go topless for me, 207 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: not on command by a game of motorcyclist. Yeah. I 208 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: actually hid in the bed of a truck. Yeah, I mean, 209 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: I'll show them what I want to show them. I 210 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: mean it was pretty intense. So talk about hypocrisy. You know, 211 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: we're saying, oh, the paternalistic stage. And this is where 212 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: my anti anti federalist bones get aky. Like here as 213 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: as the government, we say you you must wear your seatbelt, 214 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: it's for your own protection. You must not drink and drive. 215 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: It's for the protection of everyone's for the good of all. 216 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: I know, by the way, you must not show your 217 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: nips if you're a woman, because it's for the good 218 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: of all. These distracted men. Mean, we're trying to take 219 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: care of you ladies. It's very Yeah, part of me 220 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: kind of gets it because I do. I do think 221 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: that if you were if you were a topless woman 222 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: walking down the street, I bet sun driver would would 223 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: cause an accident. But that's hit like, that's his fault, 224 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: and so a part of me gets where they're coming 225 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: from and that you know women were rocking on topless. Frankly, 226 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't trust that men wouldn't be like running into 227 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: like poles of their car and causing a public safety 228 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: problem until it was normal, right until it was normal. 229 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: And we'll never we'll never get to normal if we 230 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: keep legislating. And so I want to hear from our 231 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: listeners from abroad, tell us what it's like to learn 232 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: in the society that's not so drenched in our puritanical 233 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: roots like it is here in the United Totally. I 234 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: I want to hear all about this um and so 235 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: one thing I do need to state is that this 236 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: issue people have been arrested to like in modern in 237 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: modern times for this. So in New Jersey, this woman 238 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: named Phoenix Phely she served time in the A County 239 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: Correctional Facility in Freehold Township, New Jersey, after she refused 240 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: to pay an eight hundred and sixteen dollar spine standing 241 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: from being arrested twice in the same day in two 242 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: thousand and eight while sunbathing in spring Lake, New Jersey. 243 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, she basically was like, if you're fine, I'm 244 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: not paying this. I should be able to go topless, 245 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: um and She argued that going topless is not the 246 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: same thing as being nude, and that women, like men, 247 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: should be able to bear their chests in public. At 248 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: her sentencing, she you know, was great, Yeah, it's crazy, 249 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: So she quote, I refuse to pay a fine for 250 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: an act that is legal for a man but is 251 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: illegal for a woman. And I think that puts it perfectly. 252 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: And that's all we're trying to say here. We're not 253 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: saying that Bridget and I are dying to take off 254 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: our tops the minute we uh we walk out of 255 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: the studio, because I'm definitely not. When it comes to 256 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: like straight up gender discrimination, how is this not a 257 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: clear case of something that is legal for men and 258 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: illegal for women. And people would argue that men and 259 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: women's breasts look differently, but guess what across the full 260 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: spectrum of bodies in this country, that is not necessarily true. 261 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: That is so not true. And I think you know, 262 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: another wrinkle of this topic is folks who don't fall 263 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: along the gender bin area, right like folks who like 264 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: there are are We have such a vast rainbow of 265 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: bodies that fall along all kinds of of lines, and 266 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: this idea that we are we are legislating, but we're not. 267 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: Let our legislation has not caught up with the fact 268 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: that that is the case trans women exactly. And in 269 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: California just recently they they officially had determined that there 270 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: are more than two genders. That is on their legal 271 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: that is a legal ruling that they have found, and 272 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: yet our nipple laws are not caught up with that. 273 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: We still legislative along a bin area when we are 274 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: when we have acknowledged as a society that that's not 275 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: well correct, but we're working on We're getting there. Let's 276 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: take a quick break, and when we come back, we're 277 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: going to talk about this hashtag free the Nipple campaign 278 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: and how social media has become the new arena for 279 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: that's really a hotbed for this debate. After a word 280 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: from our sponsors, and we're back, and there's so much 281 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: more to talk about. This complicated right, they don't seem 282 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: that complicated. But so let's dive right into the hashtag 283 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: free the Nipple, which was coupled with documentary which frankly 284 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: all the buzz around the nipple campaign, and that documentary 285 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: is how I first learned about this issue and first 286 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: became aware that this was an issue, And I'll be honest, 287 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: when I saw this parade of topless women in New 288 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: York City on the Free the Nipple movie trailer, I 289 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: was thinking, Oh my god, this is too far. This 290 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: Like I'm a feminist, I'm a progressive, but this is 291 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: over the top. And my gut reaction was, you know, 292 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: this is not the battle to be fighting right now. 293 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: And I have to admit I've come around, but I 294 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: was initially like very skeptical that this should be a priority. Yes, 295 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: I completely, I mean I I probably I agree with you, 296 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: and my take is probably almost more extreme. And so 297 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: some of y'all might be surprised to know this. I 298 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: I'm maybe I'm a little bit of a prude or 299 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: something like I am. I have a very gut reaction 300 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: to public nudity. I personally, I don't dig it. I 301 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: don't dig it, and I don't dig it for like 302 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: very problematic reasons that I have like clearly internalized. Right, 303 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: this is one of those things that like it's very 304 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: clear to me that my problem with it is that 305 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: I have internalized some not great stuff from society around it. 306 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: Perhaps is religious because I'm I'm a person of faith 307 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: and I think you know, again, as someone who goes 308 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: to a lot of protests and things like that, like 309 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: the campaign fed in where it's it's these women who 310 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: are topless and they write things on their bodies. I'm 311 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: always my first instinct is people like, oh, I hate that, 312 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: like put your shirt on. That is always my gut reaction, 313 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: and I have to challenge myself to like not have 314 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: that right and say, oh, this is a legitimate thing. Well, 315 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: I think it's good that we're acknowledging this because internalized 316 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: misogyny is so prevalent, and that's really what we're talking about. 317 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: We've internalized messages about wrongness, that woman's body is not 318 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: what we think of as appropriate. And meanwhile, you know, 319 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: think about all the Kardashian photo shoots, which are like 320 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: the new and we can't even go there with like 321 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: the problematic race component to this. But I'm thinking of 322 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: the totally nude paper and we're like, yeah, Kardashian beautiful. 323 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: I mean racially not okay, But it's just interesting the 324 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: kinds of nudity context matter. Yeah, the context matters so much, 325 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: and it's interesting the kinds of nudity that we are. 326 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: We don't beat an eye at and the kinds of 327 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: nudity that we legislate shame, you know, but we're all 328 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: of us do it like we're all and I think 329 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: body shaming has a lot to do with it, right, definitely, 330 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: And what do you mean you can you can walk 331 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: around unapologetically topless and not conformed to like standard model 332 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: old catwalk standards, like we're not okay with us. Well, 333 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: that's what's so interesting about that is that a political philosopher, 334 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: Joel Feinberg actually found that or he argues that the 335 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 1: reason why we legislate nudity in this way actually has 336 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: little to do with public safety or doing what's good 337 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: for the public. And it's actually about the fact that 338 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: when shame, when feelings of shame discussed, anxiety, guilt, when 339 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: those are the kinds of feelings that are evoked by 340 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: something that's that's calls for a kind like that prompts 341 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: a kind of legislation for that has nothing to do 342 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: with public safety. Right, So, when when someone feels has 343 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: weird feels around someone who is topless, you know, legislators 344 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: and lawmakers and folks who make our laws feel the 345 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: need to step in and legislate that feel and we 346 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: know that legislation and legislators has been dominated by white 347 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: dudes for as long as we've had a government completely. 348 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: The Free the Nipple campaign can be found at Free 349 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: the Nipple dot com. She the sort of tagline here 350 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: is how far will you go for a quality? It's 351 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: about equality, empowerment, freedom, It's time and they make a 352 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,719 Speaker 1: really compelling and interesting case for you know, it's not 353 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: okay for us to cheer women's bodies in one context 354 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: and shame and legislate and just treat women's nipples toplessness 355 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: as illegal, illicit and lud in another context. It's just 356 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: total politicist politicification. What is the word they're it's politicizing 357 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: women's bodies that are anatomically functional, that are anatomically equal, 358 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: and we should treat them that way completely and honestly. 359 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, I was a bit skeptical 360 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: as in terms of this, as are like big feminist issue. 361 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: But when I went to the Free the Nipple website, 362 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: something that I found really interesting was that they were 363 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: advocating for the e r A, the Equal Rights Amendment 364 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: that would guarantee that men and women would finally be 365 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: recognized as equals. In the framework of the Constitution and 366 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: under federal protection. And you know, there are currently so 367 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: many issues and ways in which women and men are 368 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: not equal. You know, we is there an episode on 369 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: the ear right. Just for the record, the Equal Rights 370 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: Amendment is just an uh an amendment proposed to the 371 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: United States Constitution which has been in political gridlock since 372 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: what I think the nineteen sixties is when it was 373 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: first introduced, almost passed and didn't. It would have legally 374 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: stated in our constitution that men and women must be 375 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: treated equally. And guess what our constitution and government currently 376 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: does not explicitly say that. And what's even more fascinating 377 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: is that the United States, it's only one of the 378 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: seven countries in the world, along with Iran, Somalia, Sudan, 379 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: South Sudan, uh Tonga, and Palau, but if not ratified 380 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: the UN Convention on Eliminating All Forms of Discrimination against 381 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: Women And so so before we get a little high 382 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: on our conscious and I know a lot of UM 383 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: conservative women criticizing Hillary's campaign, and I get it, like 384 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: it's fine to differ on politics, but I've heard from 385 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: a lot of conservative UM feminists who say, let's focus 386 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: on women who are actually oppressed abroad. Right here in 387 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: the United States, we are so lucky, we're so privileged. 388 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: And in many ways economically that is true, not for 389 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: all women, but in many ways as a nation that's true. 390 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: But hello, look, look, look, listen to where we're at 391 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 1: as a country. We haven't explicitly gotten on board with this. 392 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: We are so far behind in so many ways. Yeah, 393 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: and I think that's exactly right. And again, I mean, 394 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: this is an issue. It may seem small because it's 395 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: just two bits of skin, but it's a very I 396 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: think it's an interesting case study in terms of how 397 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: we think about gender equality, that this is a very 398 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: obvious and explicit and overt way in which women and 399 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: men are not legislated the same, and our bodies are 400 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: police correct, And so I think, like you know, even 401 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: though he was skeptical at first, it's it's true. I mean, 402 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: it's inarguably true that this is over overt discrimination against. 403 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: So let's talk about social media, because I think social 404 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: media is where this issue has blown up, specifically with Instagram. 405 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: But let's talk through some of the platforms and their 406 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: policies already. Yeah, So I did a little digging, and 407 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: so if you're curious, you know what you can do 408 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: and what you can show and how much skin you 409 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: can show. Here's a little breakdown of where we're at. 410 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: Uh So, Tumbler and Twitter they are, you're there there, 411 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: you an even goes. You can post whatever you want nipples. 412 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: Ni Nick was yeah, yeah, yeah, nip wise, so go 413 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: nuts on both of those platforms. UM on Facebook they 414 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: Facebook used to have a no nipple policy of any kind. 415 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: Now they are allowed if it's an image of someone breastfeeding. 416 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 1: And so if you're a mom who's posting a picture 417 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: of you know, like my friend from earlier, like that 418 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: was so strange to me that it was not a 419 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: sexual image, it was her. It was an image of 420 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: her celebrating her her pregnancy, and that she was banned 421 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: from Facebook for it. So now now it's fine on 422 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: Facebook as long as you're breastfeeding. UM on Instagram, they 423 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 1: are super super not allowed. And we're gonna get into 424 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: sort of some interesting face studies of that. Um I 425 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: did find this interesting. According to hyper Allergic, UM quote 426 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: LinkedIn's policy on nipples is unclear, so tested out, let 427 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: us know what happens. And and so let's talk about 428 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: a drama on Instagram because context. It's like, who comes 429 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: up with this stuff? But context really matters on Instagram. 430 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 1: So a piece of art, a painting or photo, or 431 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: even a T shirt or a bikini featuring nipples, Like 432 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: if you wore a nude bikini that had a photo 433 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: realistic nipple breast on it, you can get away with 434 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: that on Instagram. Should just show you how absurd this 435 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: an arbitrary, this rule, and um, your nips, like actual 436 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: nips not only not allowed in any context unless you're due, 437 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: unless you're dude. So uh. The guy from Orange is 438 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: the new Black Matt McGorry is that the name? He 439 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: actually posted a picture which I think really illustrated the 440 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: ridiculousness of this policy. It's a picture of him topless 441 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: and he has cropped out his own male nipples. And 442 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: on one side he has cropped in a picture of 443 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: Miley Cyrus's nipple, and on the other side it's a 444 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: picture of Christie Tigan's nipple. You can see me in 445 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: the studio, I'm illustrating with her hands in a very 446 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: awkward way. Um, but that picture is allowed even though 447 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: he has exposed female nipples. But because he is a man, 448 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: that picture is allowed, which is absurd. She did just 449 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,919 Speaker 1: to point out the absurdity. Yeah, and I think it's 450 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: a good illustration. Yeah. And this policy on Instagram even 451 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: gets to the point where, um, a Vogue editor and artist, 452 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: Grace Cottington, was kicked off of Instagram after posting a 453 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: doodle an image. It wasn't even like a hyper realistic 454 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: like it was a very like a cartoon of herself topless, 455 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: and she was banned from Instagram for that. What Yeah? 456 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: That she just doesn't make it go to show you 457 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: how arbitrary and ridiculous as policy is. Well, I think 458 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: it's funny the folks who are pushing the envelope here 459 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: and trying to point out the absurdity behind it. There's 460 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: a a Instagram account called Genderless Underscore Nipples, which has 461 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: been uh criticizing and sort of highlighting the ridiculousness of 462 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: Instagram's strict stance on female nudity by posting hyper zoomed 463 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: in images of nipples. Look at this envy with a 464 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: nice piercing that says, bite me. I know. So we've 465 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: got a super close up photo of a nipple that 466 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: makes it impossible to tell if it was a male 467 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: or a female nipple and they're they're getting through, they're 468 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: sort of bucking the role here. Um, there's one other 469 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: Instagram kerfuffall, did you have one that you wanted to attack? Oh? 470 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: Well I would. I want to hear where you're going. Okay, 471 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: So there's one other Instagram interesting story here that I 472 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: think is really important to acknowledge, especially for women without nipples. 473 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking specifically around breast cancer survivors post mestectomy. Um, 474 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: there was a really beautiful um Instagram account and a 475 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: bunch of women who are breast cancer survivors who posted bravely, 476 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: frankly in this hyper like hyper judge, you know, policing 477 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 1: women's bodies context photos of post mastectomy UM breasts and 478 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: sort of chess. And specifically there's an interesting account around um, well, 479 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: here's a person, specifically Amy Black, who is a breast 480 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: cancer survivor who got a post mastectomy nipple tattoo. And 481 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: you can get sort of nipples tattooed on. You can 482 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: get really beautiful, incredible art. Look at this art like 483 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: it's so powerful. I mean, I claim your body exactly 484 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: and saying like I'm going to do something that makes 485 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: me feel beautiful and reclaiming sort of that that space 486 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: on her body and her own way and whatever that 487 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: looks like for you. Women without nipples, women without breasts, 488 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, if you identify as a woman, right, there's 489 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: also surgery to transition into being male without breast, but 490 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: that's a whole other bag. Um, these women were kicked 491 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: off inster him So nipple, not even nipples, breast reconstructed 492 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: breasts with tattoos celebrating breast cancer revival was banned by Instagram. 493 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: That is maddening. So I have another I have another 494 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: kind of wrinkle. It's not nipple related, but I think 495 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 1: it does show how Instagram does seem sort of hell 496 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: bent on, uh policing women's body. So in an artist 497 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: and photographer posted a picture of herself on Instagram of 498 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: her laying in bed with a period blood stain on 499 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: her pants and on the bed and insta and she's 500 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: fully clothed. That she's wearing long pants and a T shirt. 501 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: That's fully fully clothed. And Instagram deleted this picture and 502 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: the activated her account. And again, I mean, it's interesting 503 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: to me that Instagram is is policing what should be 504 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, non controversial parts of of of body ownership, 505 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: right bodies men stright once a month, it's it's no secret, sorry, 506 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: all it happens. And the fact that Instagram is like, 507 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,479 Speaker 1: oh no, no no, no, we can't have And another kind 508 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 1: of interesting point to make about this is that Facebook 509 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: owns Instagram, and Facebook often has really disturbing like images 510 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: and videos of people being murdered, people being tortured, and 511 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: yet nipples, menstruation, these are things you can't you know. 512 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: I think the counter argument would be that this is 513 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 1: a private company enterprise, that this is not a right, 514 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 1: say that this is our platform. We can censor it 515 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: the way we see fit. But with the ubiquity of it, 516 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: is that really true? Like, it's really it's really interesting. 517 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: But also how we treat women's bodies very differently, and 518 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: I don't Yeah, it's it's just fascinating to me. So 519 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: I don't mean to say that Instagram and Facebook should 520 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: change their like I mean not so I'm not making 521 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: the point that they should be like changing their corporate 522 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: policies around how they deal with this. I'm just pointing 523 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: out that, like it just seems absurd and there seems 524 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: to be no rhyme or reason to what they allow 525 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: and what they don't allow, and I think that says 526 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: something about our society and women. It's just very I 527 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: would go I would go stup further and say they 528 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: should change it to just treat men and women's bodies 529 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: the same. Here's a quote that um Lena Esco, the 530 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: founder of Free the Nipple, gave to Mike dot com 531 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: and this great article that I was just pulling from 532 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: around um how Instagram band photos of breast cancer survivor. 533 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: She says, quote equality in terms of toplessness applies to 534 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: the censorship of women's bodies on social media, the issue 535 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: of equal pay, or the stigma against breastfeeding in public. 536 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: It all falls down into the same category, which is equality. 537 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: So when we police women's bodies differently than men's on 538 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: the lawbooks or on social media, which is a huge 539 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: way that our communities, that our world communicates nowadays, we 540 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: are reinforcing this idea that men and women have different rights, 541 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: and that's messed up. It is messed up. And I 542 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: think we're gonna talk a little bit more about how 543 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: the various ways in which this is a real gender 544 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: discrimination issue after this quick break and Rebecca. We were 545 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: just talking about nipples from the nipple panic. They tend 546 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: to inspire the drama, the drama around nipples, and so 547 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about sort of what can be done. 548 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: So if this is an issue that you want to 549 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: get involved with, that you want to make noise about, 550 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: there are ways and there are groups sort of doing 551 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: that work. Um. And so one thing I would suggest 552 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: is going to go topless dot org, which really is 553 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: a one stop shop for all your nipple related activism. UM. 554 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: And then I would say watch the documentary fore the Nipple. 555 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: It's streaming on Hulu, and I think there's other places 556 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: online like Amazon Video that you can also find it, 557 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: or on iTunes, uh and Google Play. And it's a 558 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: really great rundown of not only the the whack history 559 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: behind h the discriminatory practices around enforcement and what's deemed lude, 560 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: but also a real chronicling of the movement right, the movement, 561 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: the March, the renaissance around women advocating for the right 562 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: to go topless and and not be deemed a criminal 563 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: for doing so. Yeah, and speaking of being deemed a criminal. Um. 564 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: In one county in New Hampshire, state representatives tried to 565 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: ban female toplessness statewide, and this bill to ban it 566 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: was killed in the How Subcommittee after its members found 567 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: out that has written a second offense would be a 568 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: felony and could require those convicted to register a sex 569 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: offenders which is absurd, right, which has huge ramifications on 570 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: someone's employment, eligibility and life writ large for showing off 571 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: what is publicly deemed appropriate for men and not women. 572 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: How is that not discriminatory? It's so discriminatory. And again, 573 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: I mean winding up on a a sex offender list 574 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: because you you know, for sunbathing like that, like that 575 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: I think is really something that we should be I mean, 576 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: the fact that was even something that was considered in 577 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: a modern day America I think is absurd and why 578 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: And that's also why it's so important to understand enforcement 579 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: and understand the very disjointed legality around this, which you 580 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: were telling me off air for a second about. Was 581 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: it New Hampshire? Yeah, so New Hampshire is kind of 582 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: a hotbed of case studies around nipple laws les. Yes, 583 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: And so what's interesting is there was a group of 584 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: women women in ten who were sunbathing in New Hampshire. 585 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: They were in They were in Laconia, New Hampshire, sunbathing topless, 586 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: and they had no complaints. Everything was fine. Then they 587 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: went to another part of New Hampshire, Guilford, New Hampshire, 588 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: topless to watch the fireworks display, and someone called the police. Um, 589 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: the two women were cited. They were given citations, and 590 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: it was determined that because there is no law banning 591 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: female toplessness in the state criminal code, there could be 592 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: no local ordinances that criminalized, you know, public toplessness of women. 593 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: And what it's also so strange is that, weirdly, the 594 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: people of this town to the women's defense, no, no, 595 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: they were like, no, we want this to be like 596 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: like they tried to get the right. They wanted the 597 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: judge to continue to uphold this citation, but the judge 598 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: was like, no, I'm not going to reverse my decision. 599 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: There's no state law against it. So they're there, we 600 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: can't cite them. But it's interesting that you find state 601 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: law outing up against uh city law and local law 602 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: and enforcement arresting anyway. Correct. So even in places like 603 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: New York City, where it's technically allowed to be a 604 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: woman who's topless on the street, police officers need to 605 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: issue reminders that they can't arrest women for simply going 606 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: shirtless and locations where it would be permissible to do 607 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: so if they were men um and so the New 608 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: York Times reports simply exposing your breast in public is 609 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: not a crime, and so you have people have to 610 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: remind cups because otherwise otherwise they'll treat it as as 611 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: if it's a crime, and people will call the police 612 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: and be like, oh, this woman is topless on the street, 613 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,719 Speaker 1: and everybody just needs reminders that hey, this is not 614 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: a crime. And that just should go to show you 615 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: how kind of you find all these different laws plus 616 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: public opinion bumping up against each other because so bizarre. 617 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: And I think of New Hampshire as the most interesting 618 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: place for this to all be going down, because it 619 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: is such a libertarian state where they basically are like, 620 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: we don't want government interfering in our lives as much 621 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: as possible. We don't want government, which don't they have 622 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: like no sales tax, there phrases live for your daft, 623 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: and yet they're like, let's police women's bodies more. Live 624 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: for you or die unless you are a female sun 625 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: bather on the beach or just strolling around down with 626 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 1: the nips out, and I think it's important to acknowledge 627 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: the homology behind this, and so homology is the term 628 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: I first came across in Dr Emily Nagoski the sex 629 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: experts book about it's called Come as You Are. It's 630 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: a fascinating read. I highly recommend it about female sexuality 631 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: and sexual pleasure. And what she made me realize is 632 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: that men and women come from the same genealogy, right, 633 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: we come from the same d n A. We our 634 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: bodies have the this existence of shared ancestry. That is 635 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 1: the reason why our bodies are mirrored, our bodies are comparable. 636 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: And she actually goes into great detail about how women's 637 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: sex organs and men's sex organs are way more similar 638 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: than you think they are. And I couldn't help but 639 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: think about that when we think about why men have 640 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: nipples in the first place, Like why do men have 641 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: nipples if there's no uh like function but function to them. 642 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 1: And it's because of homologies, because of the historical sort 643 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: of um equality between our organs and how we're produced 644 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: as human beings in gestation and in development. So it's 645 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: just a good reminder the whole all the stigma, all 646 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: the drama, all the sexualization, all that titilating components to 647 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: women's nipples are one hundred percent society putting its per 648 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: like it's perspective on your body. Like men and women's 649 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: nipples come from the same DNA. Men and women's nipples 650 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: are not as different as we're made to think that 651 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: they actually are, and and all the like, the sexiness 652 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 1: of women's nipples is someone else's judgment put upon your 653 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: body totally. And I think that's I mean, I keep 654 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: coming back to this because I think it's one way 655 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: that it plays out so so obviously it's with breastfeeding, right, 656 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: like that we as a society have you know, made 657 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,359 Speaker 1: breasts such a a titillating thing when they're when they're 658 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: they shouldn't be. And I think I think it was 659 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 1: Amy Adams who talked about and People Magazine about after 660 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: becoming a mom and starting to breastfeed that she was like, yeah, 661 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the purpose of my body is to not 662 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: look good and is not to look at the bathing suit. 663 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: It's to feed my child at this point. And you know, 664 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: I'm she was like, yeah, I'm more concerned with that 665 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: functionality than like, you know, being in a bikini or 666 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: what happened, and so you know, I mean, there are 667 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: so many women out there who have been kicked off 668 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: of planes, kicked out of restaurants for simply breastfeeding. And 669 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,399 Speaker 1: it's such a it's such a you know, it should 670 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: be a normalized thing. It's healthy for the baby. People 671 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: are like, oh, girl, breastfeeding politics are hardcore. I'm probably 672 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: I should say, I should say I probably said the 673 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: most thing. I'm sorry. I'm just saying, yeah, we're gonna 674 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: do a whole episode around brestfeeding politics because I know 675 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: it's tricky. My mom is a patrician and she is 676 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: often advocating for women's rights to breastfeed and as am 677 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: I or not to breastfeed, exactly all the things. Um, 678 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: but yeah, I think that when you have these people 679 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: who are like, oh, you should cover up or do 680 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: that in the bathroom, Like what do you want to 681 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: eat your lunch in a bathroom stall? No? Gross? You know, 682 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: it's just everyone policing women's bodies, just like the police 683 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: women's speech. And I have to give one more shout 684 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: out to Kristin Conger who did a really great YouTube 685 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: video on the question. I was just discussing why do 686 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: men have nipples? She was actually on brain Stuff's channel 687 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: on YouTube, so another how stuff works podcast, brain Stuff. UM, 688 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: just google why do men have nipples? You'll find Kristen 689 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: talking through that issue on more and more of a 690 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: level too. So I just want to throw that in 691 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: there because I've just mentioned it before. But yes, and 692 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: to get a soft breastfeeding You're like, no, no, it's 693 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: great though. So last thing we want to just shout 694 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: out to uh, those of us who are like, oh 695 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,479 Speaker 1: my goodness, I need to take action to free the nipple. 696 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: I didn't realize this was such a big deal and 697 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 1: such an issue and it is. Um, there's an upcoming 698 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: event where you can do just that. It's called Go 699 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: Topless Day and it comes up every August in what 700 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: is it, the Tuesday Closest to Day, which is the Anniversity. 701 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: We've been getting the right to vote right, and so 702 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: all over the country you might find free the Nipple 703 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: days and marches and protests or demonstrations where women are 704 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: encouraged and welcome to go topless and men who there 705 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: are many men who are here to support women. And 706 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: we can talk about many complex reasons why, but let's 707 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: give them the benefit of the doubting and assume that 708 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: they're all there to support equality. UM. But there are 709 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: men who are who are encouraged to wear bras and 710 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: bikini tops and show up with their nipples covered and 711 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: see how wonderfully comfortable that can be. So U go 712 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: topless day. It's coming up in August. Check it out, 713 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: get out to a demonstration. If you're so inclined, you 714 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: also can go and not be topless. That's okay too. 715 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 1: It's just an opportunity to talk to women, to talk 716 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: to men, to talk about equality, and to talk about 717 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: how we can raise more awareness, especially amongst legislators. Uh 718 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: and and be a part of the activist community in 719 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: making the case for equality on the books. When it 720 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: comes to how we treat men and women's nipples, you know, 721 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you, especially if you have 722 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: a challenging relationship with your nipples, Like how do you 723 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 1: feel about nipples? Are you a survivor of breast cancer? 724 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: Are you postmastectomy? Are you a transwoman? I mean, what 725 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: is what is what does nipples mean to you? Um? 726 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: And is it important that this is something that is 727 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: legalized for women in the same way that is for men. 728 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot more to unpack that Frankly 729 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: Bridge and I didn't have time to get to in 730 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: today's episode, but we hope this gave us a good 731 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: starting point for our continued conversation on social and we 732 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: cannot wait to hear what free the Nipple means to you. 733 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you 734 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: seeing w