WEBVTT - Sexual Harassment in the Workplace Is as Bad as Ever 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.200 From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.879 potential of your people so you can take your business 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.520 where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:16.840 Ferry dot com slash up. The President elect of the 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.759 United States, Donald Trump has been accused of sexual harassment 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:24.560 by multiple women, and he also used language in his 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.000 campaign that would be considered sexual harassment in the workplace. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.080 Given that Donald Trump is now the example of leadership 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:34.640 in our country, it got us thinking about the state 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.920 of sexual harassment in the workplace. This is game plan. 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.839 I'm Rebecca Greenfield, a reporter for Bloomberg, where I cover 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.120 the workplace, and I'm Sam Grobard. I am a writer 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:58.279 for Bloomberg business Week magazine. So sexual harassment is not 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.600 just a campaign issue, not just political, and it's definitely 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.000 not just unique to Donald Jump. It's certainly not. And 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.119 I think what's interesting about a lot of the things 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.240 we were hearing about Trump was how blatant it was, 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.160 how sort of it seemed over the top. And I 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.520 remember feeling like I couldn't believe that this sort of 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.920 behavior was still happening in two thousand six. Yeah, I 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.720 felt that way too, and feel that way about sexual 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:26.679 harassment in the workplace where it's not I don't expect 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.679 to work in a workplace where that is appropriate at all. 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.280 I don't even really think that that's possible now, you know. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:35.319 I watched Madman, and I think that is a time 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.120 long gone and I will never, like Joan, have to 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.840 sleep with somebody to get the client. And yet we 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.240 hear stories out of Fox News and other places where 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.080 this kind of behavior seems to be happening well up 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.600 until very recently up and maybe it's still happening. Yeah, 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:51.240 I think it is still happening. I mean, I think 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.080 a lesson with Fox News was that we didn't hear 0:01:54.080 --> 0:01:57.360 a lot of the stories. The thing about Trump's rise 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.120 to the White House combined with his what would appear 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:06.320 to be documented history of sexual harassment, it ties the 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.680 two together, and it makes it basically acceptable. It certainly 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.560 does not make it disqualifying. It basically says you can 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.280 do these things, you can act this way to these people, 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:23.640 and you can achieve the highest office in the land. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.120 I mean, you couldn't really have a more stark cause 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:29.920 and outcome, really yeah, and I think that was something 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.800 that I read over by Susan Antila at the Street, 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.639 which is a website that covers finance. She talked to 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.320 an employment lawyer who said that we model our behaviors 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:41.880 after leaders we see. So even if you're not like 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:45.920 specifically thinking like, oh, Donald Trump president, if I want 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:50.040 to become president, I should call women certain things, but 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.919 you unconsciously just it becomes appropriate. Yeah. Those two again, 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.919 those two things sort of become decoupled and it does 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.280 not seem to be an impediment. Here's a very public 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.400 example of it not serving as an impediment. Clarence Thomas 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.680 got on the Supreme Court. Donald Trump got into the 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:08.560 White House. I'll be politically egalitarian. Bill Clinton got into 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.240 the White House. You know, you can do this, and 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:15.799 it's okay. It was okay in it's okay in two 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.480 thousand sixteen. But it's still to me as somebody who 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.760 works feels like things have changed. I want to feel 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.800 like things have changed, right, And I think that they 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.079 have right. But I guess that really depends on where 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.079 you work. Yes, and also what you consider harassment. I mean, 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:33.520 it is black and white, but I think to the 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:37.000 people being harassed and the harassers That can be really confusing, right, 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.280 And this, to me, I feel is one of the 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:42.480 bigger problems, is that I never have to think about 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:46.600 sexual harassment as far as being done to me. But 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.400 I would presume Becca that you do think about it, 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:51.840 and the fact that you do think about it means 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.800 that's part of your brain that should probably be spent 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.600 on other things. There's just like the tyranny of having 0:03:57.640 --> 0:03:59.640 to think about it at all. Yeah. I can think 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.320 of two things. One is sometime second guessing and thinking, oh, 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.240 was that sexual harassment to that person harassed me? I 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.640 overblowing it, which usually means you're not, but that feels horrible. 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:12.320 And then also I want to talk about one of 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.480 my previous half big takes where I talked about how 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.880 I didn't really like it when people complimented people on 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:21.560 their looks at work. And I think that probably I 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.960 know that comes from a place of me really wanting 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.400 people to take me seriously outside of the way I look, 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:28.880 because I even have to think about that as a woman. 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.800 And just for listeners who are not familiar with that 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:34.840 half bag take and that half big take, I I 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.520 said that I thought that people shouldn't complement each other 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:44.000 on their looks at work, and that includes clothing, hat 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:49.560 and glasses, accessories, updates, um, just because I think it's 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:51.719 better to not. I think it can make people uncomfortable. 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:53.720 And when I said I think it can make people uncomfortable, 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:55.920 I mean I've been made uncomfortable by that when men 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.360 have done that to me. Do I think that they're 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.599 evil sexual harass sers who need to be fired? No, 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.599 I don't, but it definitely comes from the place of 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.120 having to think about it and trying to shield myself 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.000 from something. Again, that's just like another process that you 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.440 have to be aware of that you know, guys don't 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.000 and that's lucky of me. You know, there are women 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:20.320 who are harassed at work, and to talk more about that, 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.840 we have with us Claire Setteth, who is a reporter 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:25.440 at Bloomberg Business Week who for the last few months 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:30.560 has been talking to almost twenty women about the various 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:38.040 ways they've been sexually harassed at work. Thanks for coming 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:40.120 on and talking to us. Yeah, thanks for having me. 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:43.440 So you've talked over a dozen women who have been 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.719 sexually harassed at work, Yes, I have, and their stories 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:51.840 have ranged from mildly infuriating and frustrating to absolutely tragic 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.200 where you don't think that this would still be happening. 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:56.479 Do you want to give some examples of the tragic 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.360 things that are still happening. Yeah, well, I think you know. 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.000 When the Roger Ales news hit with Fox News, that 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.480 was the very classic, um what legal experts called pro 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.920 quo harassment, where a man in position of power tells 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.520 his underlying sleep with me, or you lose your job, 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.320 or you don't get your raise or whatever. That is 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.400 sort of the classic standard harassment. Then there's also what 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.440 is known as hostile work environment, which is where you're 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.200 not requested to do sexual favors or anything like that, 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.640 but it's pretty much made clear to you that you 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.280 are being objectified, or comments are being made about you, 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.279 or maybe you're touched in a way that you don't 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.680 want to be touched, and it just makes it very 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:36.479 difficult for you to do your job with any sort 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.960 of level of comfort. So both of those still exists. 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.120 The quid pro quo stuff is sort of the mad 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:43.919 Men era days that I didn't think until I started 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.640 talking to women that it was still as commons as 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.720 it is. But unfortunately Um, it is the case, especially 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.839 in food service. I talked to someone who worked on 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.480 a horse farm, and you know, it's sort of non 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:03.120 traditional workplace environments are you don't necessarily have the company 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:07.960 culture and the compliance training and the meetings about diversity 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.680 and this sort of stuff. Um, where the sort of 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.720 old school way of doing things still rains. Claire, you're 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:15.800 just referring to somebody working on a horse farm. I 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.320 was curious to know what kinds of companies do or 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.800 did these women work for. They worked at everything from 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.960 one woman worked at Google, down to the horse farm, 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.560 to a coffee shop in California to oh gosh, um Washington, 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.280 d C. She works with politicians and a sitting politician 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.000 put his hands between her legs in a meeting. One 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:41.800 woman worked at the u N and had the High 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.520 Commissioner for Refugees who used to be the Prime Minister 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:49.200 of the Netherlands acost her in a meeting. She actually sued, 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:51.680 but her case was thrown out because if you work 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.400 at the UN you have diplomatic community. Wow. So yeah, 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.440 I was thinking maybe the quid pro quols stuff didn't 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.640 happen in the office, that happened in these non traditional 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.800 empire ments. But it sounds like, yeah, it really matter. 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:04.720 It really just depends. I mean, it depends on the 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.480 people that you work with and how seriously your company 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:10.720 takes it if and when something does happen. I talked 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:15.600 to a lot of employment experts, both psychologists and legal experts, 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.320 who said, you know, essentially this is a cultural problem. 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:21.080 Women experience this in all facets of their life. And 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:23.840 so if you're a company and you hire people of 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:25.440 any sort of size, you know, a f you have 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:27.680 five people, maybe you won't have this problem. But if 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.040 you get a hundred people, all of the sort of 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:33.560 ills of society eventually are going to come to you. 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.640 So companies sort of have to act as if this 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.080 is something that's out there, this does happen, what are 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.200 we going to do about it when it does happen. 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.880 Have you noticed in your conversations with these women and 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.960 evolution of sexual harassment or is it in fact very 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.360 much the same as it was you were referring to 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.120 the Madmen era? Does it still take the same forms? Yeah, 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.559 I mean essentially the same stuff that happened in mad 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.520 Men is happening now. Um, it may be different levels. 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:07.000 Maybe your industry, it's a bit different. UM, I think 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.960 sort of in news media. The stuff that happened at 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.479 Fox News is not common to other news media organizations. 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.760 But that doesn't mean that Fox News was just the 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:19.880 only place that that happened at all. And so I 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.400 talked with some people who work at the Equal Employment 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:26.200 Opportunity Commissioned and they investigate all harassment complaints, and they 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.480 said that while quid pro quo statistically isn't as common 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.680 as it used to be, UM, they are still dealing 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.079 with pretty much everything, and they they have been dealing 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.560 with everything. And I talked to a woman who was 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:38.959 harassed in the nineteen eighties. I talked to Anita Hill, 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.280 who was harassed also in the nineteen eighties. We came 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.920 forward in the nineties and I talked to women who 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:45.920 are in their twenties who were just harassed a couple 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.240 of years ago, and their stories are pretty much the same. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:51.200 The questions that they have are the same. The way 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.720 that their employers dealt with it varied so drastically that 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:56.880 it's not guaranteed that you're going to be at a 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.200 place that takes this seriously. So I'm not really sure 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.960 that we've made as many strides as we think that 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.400 we have. I want to hear more about the employers. 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:08.360 But before getting to that, it does seem that perception 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:11.360 has changed, though, like you were saying, we think things 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:15.000 have improved. I think that I work in a better 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.719 workplace environment, not just here but anywhere. All work is 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.319 better than Madman. I mean, is that perception completely wrong 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.520 or has harassment changed its form changed a little bit? Well? 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:28.959 So I also felt that way. I you know, I 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:32.559 have been fortunate enough to not have been blatantly harassed 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.600 at work. But I will say that when I started 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.679 asking people about this, I got a flood of responses 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.439 unlike anything that I have ever gotten for any other 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:43.520 story that I've worked on, to the point where I 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.679 had childhood friends, very close friends, tell me these stories. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.800 And not all of them are you know, my boss said, 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:51.560 sleep with me or I'm going to fire you. A 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.560 lot of them were things like one woman said, you know, 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:57.800 when she worked at her I t help desk in college, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.560 so she's you know, early twenty is the actual like 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:05.040 fully employed full time workers, there were older men. They 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.240 would come and like snap her brawn and harass her 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.320 a little bit. But it was kind of minor, but 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.920 she complained about it, and they just said, you know what, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:15.480 do you want us to fire them? We're not going 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:20.280 to fire them. So it's not quite necessarily, you know 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:22.400 Joan on mad Men having to sleep with someone in 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.680 order to get the promotion to become a partner. But 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.400 it still happened, and that was only a few years ago, 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.160 and to be clear, that's still illegal. Yes, oh yeah, 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.839 oh yeah. Actually what they should have done is fired them, right, 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:37.400 I mean, we know that, but I do think there's 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.760 this perception of if you're not going as far as 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.760 the most horrible thing, then it's okay. It's right legally. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.080 There are a number of different ways that this goes, 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.000 but essentially, if it is someone in a position of power, 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.440 your superior, your manager or whatever, and they harass you, 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.640 that is pretty much just legally, that's cut and dry. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.480 If it's coworker and coworker. It ranges whether or not 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:04.600 you had complained about it, if you had made your 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.200 boss or HR manager as someone aware of it, and 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.520 it depends on exactly what it was. You know, if 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.679 it's one comment here, courts don't consider that hostile. Um. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.760 It has to be pervasive, So it has to be 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:20.520 regularly for a while. Um, there isn't a time limit 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:22.360 on what is a while, but it has to be, 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.120 you know, not just like, Oh, I heard this off 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.120 color remark and I don't like it, which I think 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:27.840 is is good because otherwise we hear a lot of 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.320 off color things and all sorts of capacities, and that 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.280 could get pretty dangerous. Becca, you refer to this earlier, 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.440 but I'll ask it now if you could tell us 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.800 a little bit about how some of these employers did 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:42.800 respond to the complaints, to the actions, and what were 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.920 some good examples, what were some really lousy examples. I 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.360 think one of the better examples was a woman who's 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:54.360 an animator at a major Hollywood studio and she had 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.720 been repeatedly asked out on dates to the point where 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.440 when she would say no, he would still say, not 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.600 just let's go for coffee, but let's go on a 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.920 hot air balloon ride, and let's have a candle at dinner. 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.439 And he tricked her once into going out to dinner 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:08.840 with him, and he said it was going to be 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:10.480 a big group of people, and then she showed up 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.840 at the restaurant it was just him, he sent her 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.720 flowers and went on and on and on. So she 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.920 told her manager and she herself at the time wasn't 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.400 sure what she should be doing. She wasn't sure if 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.679 that was allowed or not allowed, or if she was. 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.240 She was like, am I blowing this out of proportion? 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.480 I don't know? And he said absolutely not. Um, he 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.720 should not be doing this sort of stuff if you 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.920 have expressed no interest. And so they talked to him 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.520 and then it completely stopped. But he's still at that 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.280 company and she doesn't necessarily work with him every day, 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.120 but she does sometimes here and there and just mostly, 0:13:46.480 --> 0:13:48.720 you know, deals with it. Yeah. I think part of 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:52.199 the problem is some people will hear that story and say, 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.960 is that harassment? I don't know? And yeah, it's comforting 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:00.280 to hear a company say yes, right, you should not 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:03.080 have to experience that at work, right, And they talked 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.040 to him and he stopped it. And if he hadn't 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.079 had stopped it, maybe they would talk to him again, 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.800 or they would take some sort of formal level of 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.160 punishment that they didn't have to step in and do. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.480 So it really depends on exactly what is going on. Um, 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.200 That's why I sort of liked her story so much 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.120 is because in some ways it was benign and you 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.600 could be confused. But also if you tell someone to 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:24.720 stop bothering you and they still bother you, and she 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:26.880 said he would email her all day long, every day 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.800 and she just didn't feel very comfortable. You should also 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:34.080 have someone at work be able to step in and say, actually, 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:36.840 this isn't how you want to work, right. I mean, 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:38.920 she wouldn't like to be at that company. Maybe she 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.440 wouldn't be there if they hadn't done anything, certainly. I mean, 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.200 if somebody tries to talk to you at a bar, 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:45.880 you know, you can either tell them buzz off or 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.080 leave yourself and then you're done, right, But in office 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:50.920 is a place people are going to continue to show 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:53.040 up in and work in, and you have you can't 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.960 just not go yeah, well, and this was like her 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.040 first big job at a major, major studio. And so 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.000 this is a woman who'd her whole life wanting to 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.120 be an animator, like, went to grad school, did all 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.480 this sort of stuff, I think, gets there and then 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.720 this happens, and what she's just going to quit? I mean, 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.160 so I liked that that worked out. Well, I'm trying 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:12.960 to think of some of the other stuff. Uh yeah, 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.720 what was an example of a company not handling it? Well, 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.400 what does that look like for the woman? Well, the 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:22.480 most tragic one was a young woman just out of 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.280 law school. She got a job at a boutique litigation 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.280 firm in Manhattan, and she went out to dinner with 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.800 the partners and one of them made a comment that 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.240 because he was paying for a dinner, she should give 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.880 him a book job. She was a summer intern and 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.200 felt kind of weird about it, but it was just 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.680 the one comment, um, And so when the firm offered 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.560 her a job, she accepted it. She didn't think she 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.840 was going to be working directly with him, but surprised 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.840 they reorganized she's going to be working directly with him. 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.200 And so those types of comments became her daily life 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.880 almost immediately, where she was told, you know, to dress 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:01.720 sort of scantily for her hearing so that she could 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.880 be eye candy for the judge. Her body was commented 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.800 on all the time. He actually asked her to have 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.480 sex with him and she said no. He told her 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.520 at some point that he wasn't sure that he could 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.760 recommend her for a bonus, and then they should Um, 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:17.680 this was at their holiday party, that they should go 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.640 back up to the office and talk about it. Um, 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:23.680 they ended up having sex. It's sort of unclear to me, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.480 based on the lawsuit, how that completely played out. And 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.000 so she only worked there for three months before it 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:33.000 got that bad that quickly, and she went to work 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.480 for two days afterwards, um, which sort of blitz my mind. 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:37.360 And then she realized she couldn't do it anymore, and 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.600 she quit. She went home to Nebraska and got a job, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.560 and as soon as she got a job, she sued 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.160 and the lass firm uh counter suitor for fifteen million 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.200 dollars alleging all these things. They eventually dropped the counter suit. 0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:55.640 She won a dty thousand dollars in her sexual harassment lawsuit, um, 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.840 which is actually fairly low considering what had happened to her. Yeah, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.680 hearing you tell the story, it was interesting to hear 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.600 you say when he made that first remark that she 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.439 thought it was kind of weird. I'm using air quotes 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:16.399 because that's very weird. Weird. Yeah, like, yeah, that is 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.440 not normal from someone you work with, especially to a 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:26.040 summer intern. Yeah, you know, it's it's to anybody, right, Well, 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.919 and you know it's it's it's been hard reporting this 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.240 because I just want people to tell me what their 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.919 experiences were and what their thought process was at the time. 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.040 And oftentimes these women have now in hindsight than like 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:40.600 what was I thinking? What was I doing? But she 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.040 had never had a job before, she was coming from 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.439 the South, had never lived in New York before, not 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:47.440 that New Yorkers talked like that at all, but like 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.520 everything is new to her, Like this is her first 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:52.320 summer job, She's going to be a lawyer. This is 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.600 just some afterwork dinner drink saying she's totally offended but 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.520 doesn't really know what to do about it. All happens 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.240 when the our and potential of every employee and leader 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:05.520 in your workforce is released, and corn Ferry can get 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:10.200 you there by aligning your people to your strategy, attracting, developing, engaging, 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.639 and rewarding them to reach new heights. With corn Ferry, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.800 you get a partner who truly understands people, leadership, and 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:19.399 the new landscape of work. A partner who knows how 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.520 to take your business up. Learn more at corn Ferry 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.480 dot com slash up. Well, I wanted to ask you, 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:27.520 Claire because I know that. Um, in addition to your 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.480 conversations with these women, you've also been working on some 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:36.879 ancillary material, including studies and examinations as to why women 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:41.119 don't speak up and and the psychology behind that, and 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.600 some of the professional issues as well. Can you tell 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.639 us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, this 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.600 is I think a very benign and honest question that 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.919 people have whenever someone comes forward, because when you if 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:53.800 you think about the stories that you've heard in the news, 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:57.000 it's always Let's take Anita Health, for example, came forward 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.000 in the harassment that she was alleging happened in the eighties. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.080 She had never said anything publicly at the time. It 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.000 turned out that she had told her friends, which actually 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.919 helped her story very much, but she didn't come forward. Then. 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.040 Gretchen Carlson clearly had been experiencing this sort of stuff 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.320 for a while. Megan Kelly has just come forward and 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.040 said exactly what happened to her with Roger Ailes ten 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:21.119 years ago. And so there is this natural reaction to like, well, 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.440 why if this is so awful, didn't you do something 0:19:24.480 --> 0:19:26.800 about this? I would do something about this. I would definitely, 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.399 I would quit. I would report this, I would you 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.480 know whatever, And sometimes that's use to discredit people when 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.520 they come forward, and sometimes it's just a really honest question. 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:40.000 And so um I started talking to psychologists, and there's 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.280 a very good study in two thousand one for these 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:48.239 psychologists interviewed women about what they would do if they 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:50.400 were sexually harassed in a job interview, and they said, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.159 I would get really mad, and I would refuse to 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.600 answer the questions, and I wouldn't accept the job, and 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.800 all the sort of stuff. And then they actually harassed 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:02.960 them in uh joh interview situation. The psychologist didn't they 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.200 hired someone to do it, but you know, he asked 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.720 them questions like do you find yourself sexually desirable? Do 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.320 you think it's important for women to wear bras to work? 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.639 Which was a bizarre question, but that's the type of 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.400 weird stuff people say, I guess, do you have a boyfriend? 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.040 In what they thought were real job interviews, And every 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.879 single woman answered the questions and sat through the entire 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.560 job interview. And then later when they asked them about it, 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.840 is said they weren't angry. What they felt instead was fear, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:32.679 so they just were trying to get out of the 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.639 situation just sort of survive it, I suppose. So the 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.600 theory behind why people might not report it is that 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:43.720