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Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. I think because I had
Speaker 1: forgiven so much, he received that as permission, and so
Speaker 1: he was continuing to act out as long as I
Speaker 1: think he could keep it secret from me. But I
Speaker 1: look back on that is when I started to really
Speaker 1: begin to empower myself and take ownership and not self
Speaker 1: a training more. Has the narcissistic person in your life
Speaker 1: ever been enabled by the church? So what do you
Speaker 1: do when you are married to a narcissistic person? Throw
Speaker 1: in some sex addiction? But you are part of a
Speaker 1: church that extols forgiveness, supporting your husband no matter what,
Speaker 1: and your feelings just don't matter. We are about to
Speaker 1: hear one woman's experience of growing up in a family
Speaker 1: that was about keeping emotions quiet and devoting yourself to
Speaker 1: the church, then being love bombed, marrying young, being betrayed,
Speaker 1: and having to navigate the complex waters of religious enablers
Speaker 1: who emboldened her husband's acting out. When you throw religion
Speaker 1: into the mix, narcissistic relationships get a hell of a
Speaker 1: lot more complicated. In this episode, we are not using
Speaker 1: the name or identifying our guests in order to protect
Speaker 1: her and her family. Let's listen to her story. I
Speaker 1: want to thank you so much for being here and
Speaker 1: sharing this story because it is such an important topic
Speaker 1: and it hits themes that might be some of the
Speaker 1: most difficult for survivors. So again, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for the gift of your time. I'm really really grateful.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. Dr Ownie, thank
Speaker 1: you happy here. So your story is so fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: Let's start from the beginning, and let's start about how
Speaker 1: a relationship can be impacted by a church. I think
Speaker 1: that it's almost like, I mean, forgive me for being crude.
Speaker 1: You were like in a threesome with a church. The
Speaker 1: church just kept being really intrusive and getting involved in
Speaker 1: your relationship in a way it should not have. I've
Speaker 1: never thought of it that way, but there definitely was
Speaker 1: a triangle going on, like lots of triangulation in the relationship. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Can you lay us out a framework about how you
Speaker 1: and your husband met in Bible College and what originally
Speaker 1: attracted you to him? Yeah, we met. He was a
Speaker 1: year younger than I was, and he came onto the
Speaker 1: scene and was super charismatic and a leader, and everyone
Speaker 1: loved him and loved his family, and so we were
Speaker 1: really brought together by this vision I think for ministry
Speaker 1: and doing tons of good in the world. He served people,
Speaker 1: he was great with kids, he was great with people
Speaker 1: of other cultures. He was great with people of all
Speaker 1: ages and just really loving them and serving them, and
Speaker 1: that was so attractive to me. I think I wanted
Speaker 1: to view good in the world too and be involved
Speaker 1: in ministry, and I think in the Bible Belt in
Speaker 1: the Midwest. In order to do that, as a female,
Speaker 1: I had in my head that I needed to attach
Speaker 1: myself to a man. So to be a pastor's wife
Speaker 1: was such a noble calling. And he was the guy
Speaker 1: on our campus and so we connected and he was
Speaker 1: very charming and we were really this like power couple.
Speaker 1: People would call us that he was great on a
Speaker 1: stage and I was really smart and could come alongside
Speaker 1: him and serve. And I think even in that role,
Speaker 1: my job was to be his helpmate, right, so to
Speaker 1: come alongside him and serve him and help him be successful.
Speaker 1: And even when he got his first ministry job, people
Speaker 1: would say it was a two for one deal. He
Speaker 1: was the pastor and I was the wife coming on
Speaker 1: who could serve and be involved and and help. But
Speaker 1: I was also had really strong leadership capabilities, and I
Speaker 1: was an educator and so I was really good with
Speaker 1: students as well, so him as a youth minister. So
Speaker 1: we were just this this power couple together for doing
Speaker 1: good in the world. We were very young and got married.
Speaker 1: I was twenty two, he was twenty one. But that's
Speaker 1: what you do at Bible College in the Midwest, like
Speaker 1: a ring by spring or your mrs degree, like it's
Speaker 1: a joke. So I needed to make sure that happened.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to leave college being alone and locked
Speaker 1: that in and we were on our way to do
Speaker 1: mission in the world together as soon as I hear
Speaker 1: charm and charisma. You know that ma ma alarm signal
Speaker 1: you hear in movies. It's almost instantaneous for me because
Speaker 1: you said you talked so much about charm and charisma,
Speaker 1: but you're twenty or twenty one year old self would
Speaker 1: not have known that, just like most people's twenty or
Speaker 1: twenty one year old selves. And yet it's such a
Speaker 1: tough one, right. Not all charm and charisma always leads
Speaker 1: down a narcissistic or toxic pathway, but a lot of
Speaker 1: it does. But it's the opposite of a red flag.
Speaker 1: In fact, for many people it's engaging. But based on
Speaker 1: the story you were sharing, I had a couple of questions,
Speaker 1: where did you get that message? Because you were as
Speaker 1: committed to this idea of ministry and the goodness you
Speaker 1: could do through through your commitment to religion, where did
Speaker 1: you get the message that as a woman, that you
Speaker 1: really could only actualize that if you were attached to
Speaker 1: a man. The term power couple is something we often
Speaker 1: hear being used to describe people in narcissistic relationships. I
Speaker 1: sometimes wonder if it's a way for the narcissists to
Speaker 1: sell the idea that together you are doing something powerful.
Speaker 1: But my experience, it's code for one person gets to
Speaker 1: be out there and get all the glory and the
Speaker 1: other is meant to support that. And the term I
Speaker 1: guess it's designed to make you feel like you share
Speaker 1: the power with them, but in a narcissistic relationship, you
Speaker 1: never do. I think that was just a story that
Speaker 1: I grew up in in the church that I was
Speaker 1: a part of, and it was the men who had
Speaker 1: leadership rules and women were the wives to the not
Speaker 1: to the side, like they were very active, but just
Speaker 1: not in the leadership roles. I remember, even when we
Speaker 1: both had graduated with ministry degrees, I had even graduated
Speaker 1: with um a bit more as I had an education
Speaker 1: degree from a secular university, and he was moving into
Speaker 1: his pastor's job after graduating and being ordained, and I
Speaker 1: had requested to be ordained as well, because I was like,
Speaker 1: I want to do ministry with my life also, and
Speaker 1: I was told no. So they ordained him, but not
Speaker 1: me because I was a female and most likely I
Speaker 1: would have kids and then not be doing ministry anymore,
Speaker 1: and I could never be a lead pastor of a church.
Speaker 1: And so there was like an explicit I think conversation
Speaker 1: with me of like there was a limit as to
Speaker 1: what I could do in leadership and in service because
Speaker 1: I was female and married. So it really was this,
Speaker 1: if I want to do what I want to do
Speaker 1: in the world, and I need to attach myself to
Speaker 1: this man. And I wanted to attach myself then to
Speaker 1: somebody who I think I saw it was going to
Speaker 1: be successful in that and do a lot of really
Speaker 1: good things in ministry. I think to some extent it
Speaker 1: worked for me too. I think I was intimidated by
Speaker 1: carrying a lot of the responsibility of leadership and insecure
Speaker 1: in myself. There was this by attaching myself to somebody
Speaker 1: else who carried that the charm, the charisma, the confidence,
Speaker 1: I was attaching myself to that, and so I could
Speaker 1: lead from the shadows, and that worked for me a
Speaker 1: little bit. Also, so was your family also like a
Speaker 1: missionary family and very committed to the church. They were very,
Speaker 1: very committed, and I'm really grateful for what I was
Speaker 1: raised in and really good value use and serving the world.
Speaker 1: And then my parents were both educators and so lots
Speaker 1: of volunteering, like it was church in school, and so
Speaker 1: they gave their life I think, to serving kids and
Speaker 1: families and then in the church. So I was raised
Speaker 1: in this world of service and wanting to make the
Speaker 1: world a better place, which is a really good thing,
Speaker 1: and I'm really grateful for that. I think the shift
Speaker 1: for me that I look back and I see now
Speaker 1: was the communal narcissism that played into that of that
Speaker 1: by serving people, that is what makes us important or great.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my family was very much like that too. Okay, alright,
Speaker 1: so they must have liked him. They loved him. All
Speaker 1: these things are making and one thing on top of
Speaker 1: the other hard. Yes, I mean everybody loved him. I
Speaker 1: was the difficult one to be because I would see
Speaker 1: things and not put like, not put up with things.
Speaker 1: I saw things in our family that weren't working. I'm
Speaker 1: more like the stereotypical role of escape, and so I
Speaker 1: think to some extent, even by finding this person who
Speaker 1: everyone loved, where I had felt like the scapegoat in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways growing up, now I was attaching
Speaker 1: myself to someone who almost like by proxy, I could
Speaker 1: be loved too, because everybody loved him so much and
Speaker 1: accepted him so much, and he was so good around people.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my my family loved him. He became like
Speaker 1: the third child of our family, and it actually really
Speaker 1: helped our family dynamics because he was super fun and
Speaker 1: so that took a lot of pressure off in our family,
Speaker 1: Like it was, it was really great to have him around.
Speaker 1: Did you like his family? I did at first. So
Speaker 1: his family was very beloved in the Christian college campus
Speaker 1: that we were in. They had gone to that school
Speaker 1: as well. I did because I think that I saw
Speaker 1: in them what was missing in my family. So he
Speaker 1: had a really great relationship with his mom and they
Speaker 1: were in ministry as well, and so think, um, I
Speaker 1: saw in them like this really great family, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to escape I think from my family of origin
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And so it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to marry this guy who has these really
Speaker 1: great values and it was really wonderful and comes from
Speaker 1: this really great family. At least what I saw at
Speaker 1: first on the surface was just this ideal of what
Speaker 1: like what I was missing, I guess. So yeah, at
Speaker 1: first I really loved and they were from a different
Speaker 1: country and so there was like a romantic piece of that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there were a lot of things that I
Speaker 1: loved about his family. Did they like you? That's a
Speaker 1: great question. I think they did because of what I
Speaker 1: could do for him. And I needed to be a
Speaker 1: helpmate to him. So as long as I was supporting
Speaker 1: him and serving him and being a very good wife,
Speaker 1: then then it was I was acceptable. What created conflict
Speaker 1: was when I began to step into my own leadership.
Speaker 1: It was not acceptable for me to supersede him in
Speaker 1: any way. So there was almost like a competition, and
Speaker 1: so I needed to be in my place and be
Speaker 1: his really good pastor's wife, which I rebelled against a
Speaker 1: little bit and like small little ways, and so that
Speaker 1: began to create conflict. And then the further we got
Speaker 1: into the relationship and the more that I realized the
Speaker 1: dysfunction and the codependency and I would speak up, the
Speaker 1: more conflict that created and created more and more boundaries
Speaker 1: because he was very in mesh with them, and I
Speaker 1: don't think that I realized that beforehand, and so as
Speaker 1: a wife, I'm like, no, like leave and cleave. So
Speaker 1: we're like, you're like, you're here, and so we need
Speaker 1: to set boundaries. And I would very much assert myself
Speaker 1: in that way, and that didn't go over well like
Speaker 1: he was. I feel like brought in as a third
Speaker 1: child into my family and just beloved. But I was
Speaker 1: always his wife. I see. So that's a role in
Speaker 1: a way, and it sounds as though they wanted you
Speaker 1: to step into that role of I don't know, being
Speaker 1: his cheerleader. Cheerleader, yes, but in a very like codependent way,
Speaker 1: as if like the cheerleaders were out on a field
Speaker 1: helping the players, like really game to what I'm hearing,
Speaker 1: to make sure I'm clear. His family, potentially the whole
Speaker 1: church people around you expected you to be fully subjugated
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, they did, but with a weird like
Speaker 1: nuance to it. Have entered into your calling, lead and things,
Speaker 1: but not so much that it would supersede him. So
Speaker 1: it's like, be great, but not too great, right, but
Speaker 1: the part be great, don't be too great, and also
Speaker 1: take care of all of his needs. Yes, yes, do
Speaker 1: all of that, do all of that, all of that right,
Speaker 1: and not have a need? No, no, no. And if
Speaker 1: I did, I needed to fix that myself, because you're right,
Speaker 1: it was all about his needs. Narcissistic relationships are solo acts,
Speaker 1: and the rest of us are at best. Backup singers.
Speaker 1: In her story, it seemed like everyone was in on that.
Speaker 1: His family, her family, the church all supported this idea
Speaker 1: of him being front and center, which made it harder
Speaker 1: for her. But this is every narcissistic relationship. There just
Speaker 1: isn't room for more than one person on their stage.
Speaker 1: It definitely is at best sort of a supporting role.
Speaker 1: I would even say you were sort of like an
Speaker 1: really involved extra in this play. It was very much
Speaker 1: like you said, you all existed to keep him front
Speaker 1: and center. I want to go back to the beginning
Speaker 1: of your relationship, because you've described him as charming and
Speaker 1: charismatic and a leader, and everybody loved him and he
Speaker 1: was beloved, But what was the beginning of the very
Speaker 1: beginning of your relationship, Like I understood what you saw
Speaker 1: in him, but what was actually the day in the
Speaker 1: day out, early on, even when you just first met.
Speaker 1: Going back and thinking about it now, knowing what I know,
Speaker 1: I see all sorts of things. And so when we
Speaker 1: first started to get together, there was a strong emphasis
Speaker 1: on being a physical with each other, and coming from
Speaker 1: a very conservative Christian space, that should have been a
Speaker 1: red flag, but I justified it, and I had been
Speaker 1: in a very long relationship in high school, and so
Speaker 1: it just felt very normal, I think. But I look
Speaker 1: back now and that wasn't an alignment I think with
Speaker 1: on the outside saying who I guess it has a
Speaker 1: pastor and certain things like that. A relationship existed very
Speaker 1: much in the public realm, so we didn't spend a
Speaker 1: whole lot of time together one on one, so not
Speaker 1: a lot of dates just us, and I think for me,
Speaker 1: I justified that there were a lot of couples where
Speaker 1: we were and people getting very serious very fast, and
Speaker 1: so people would ditch all their friends and just cling
Speaker 1: to each other, and so there was almost even like
Speaker 1: we're better than all the other couples, because look, we
Speaker 1: still hang out with everybody. I look back now, and
Speaker 1: it was because the relationship was empty. There wasn't an
Speaker 1: intimacy there. There wasn't a lot of talking, so it
Speaker 1: really was about who we were publicly and who he
Speaker 1: was publicly. And when your relationship is based on this
Speaker 1: mission to other people, then that makes sense. So our
Speaker 1: relationship was in public, doing mission trips together, being involved
Speaker 1: in just things together out in the world, but not
Speaker 1: a whole lot of just us, or we would go
Speaker 1: back to my parents house for the weekend and come back,
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't hear from him for a few days
Speaker 1: because it's like, we just spent all weekend together, why
Speaker 1: do we need to talk? And I'm like, we're dating,
Speaker 1: we have a serious relationship, or he would do trips,
Speaker 1: somebody't contact me or things. But I think I just
Speaker 1: justified as like, oh, he's where he is. I had
Speaker 1: a story for everything. And I love that about him.
Speaker 1: I love him that he is just a hundred percent
Speaker 1: where he is. So when he was at camp or
Speaker 1: doing different things, he was just a where he was
Speaker 1: And so that's okay that he didn't connect with me
Speaker 1: or reach back out to me. So I made a
Speaker 1: lot of excuses, I think, to justify the behavior. The
Speaker 1: justification now it sounds like you know more that is
Speaker 1: part of sort of a trauma bonded relationship. You're also
Speaker 1: very young. But you also you raised something here though,
Speaker 1: which is around the issue of narrative. And I talk
Speaker 1: a lot about this when it comes to narcissistic relationships.
Speaker 1: These relationships get to stay alive because of the stories
Speaker 1: we tell ourselves about them. So you crafted it into
Speaker 1: not only a plausible story, but a really really healthy story,
Speaker 1: you know, so he's very present and connected rather than
Speaker 1: viewing it as a real lapse and into to see
Speaker 1: and in a way, he almost needed a group to
Speaker 1: be in a relationship with because an individual can't bring
Speaker 1: that much narcissistic supply. But you wouldn't know that. Most
Speaker 1: people wouldn't know that. And in fact, I think your
Speaker 1: intelligence almost strangely got the best of you because you
Speaker 1: were framing it as well. All these other people, they're
Speaker 1: moving so fast and they're pairing off, like you know,
Speaker 1: nobody's business, and look at us were evolved, We're able
Speaker 1: to actually have this relationship and not do this sort
Speaker 1: of simple thing of paring off and not seeing that
Speaker 1: as an issue with intimacy, which obviously would then come back,
Speaker 1: I'd imagine throughout the relationship. Yeah, and in fact, I've
Speaker 1: been coming from my family of origin and being escapego
Speaker 1: I continued that narrative in a lot of ways too.
Speaker 1: So in the relationship, I was the one who had
Speaker 1: the dysfunction. I was the one who was controlling or irritable,
Speaker 1: like I just I took on and he was just
Speaker 1: so healthy because he was so great and had all
Speaker 1: of these great relationships. But you did think he was
Speaker 1: a great husband in the beginning. I did. And then
Speaker 1: the parts that weren't I think I just attributed to
Speaker 1: youth and thought, oh, he'll grow up. We're getting married young,
Speaker 1: like you do, and then you're gonna grow up together.
Speaker 1: And my parents got married when they were like twenty
Speaker 1: and so, yeah, you grow up together. So I think
Speaker 1: I thought, like the things that weren't okay, I was like, well,
Speaker 1: that that makes sense, Like he's a twenty one year
Speaker 1: old now I'm like a boy, Like I have a
Speaker 1: seventeen year old son, Like, oh my gosh. So I
Speaker 1: think that those things I just thought that he would
Speaker 1: grow out of them, like even some of the narcissistic stuff,
Speaker 1: Like he's a twenty one year old guy, he'll learn
Speaker 1: how to adult, will grow out of these things together.
Speaker 1: But I think back to when we were first married,
Speaker 1: and we were married on this small, little Christian college campus,
Speaker 1: and so we were surrounded by community and very involved
Speaker 1: in each other's lives, like we weren't separate, Like it
Speaker 1: just felt so good and so right. And he was
Speaker 1: a great dad at the beginning as far as being
Speaker 1: really involved with the baby and very hand on and
Speaker 1: really great with kids, and yeah, like it just all
Speaker 1: and everybody thought like we were great in this perfect
Speaker 1: little family, and yeah we were adorable. You just said
Speaker 1: something so interesting. He said he was only twenty one,
Speaker 1: and the behavior he was engaging and was useful. And
Speaker 1: I have to say, you're absolutely right if you were
Speaker 1: sitting here across from me and said, I have a
Speaker 1: twenty one year old son, and my twenty year old
Speaker 1: son's behavior is blah blah blah, entitled slovenly impulsive, the
Speaker 1: whole list. You know what I'd be telling you. I'd
Speaker 1: be saying, personality needs a minute to develop, emerging adulthood
Speaker 1: frontal lobe blah blah blah. And I'd say, call me
Speaker 1: when he's twenty five. So why would we hold you
Speaker 1: to a different standard because you're his wife? Does that
Speaker 1: make sense? So I that one is so striking to
Speaker 1: me because it's young to get married. So it wasn't
Speaker 1: young in the world you were in right to get married.
Speaker 1: She was actually really normative in a Bible college, is
Speaker 1: what you're saying. So I think that we want to
Speaker 1: be so careful because it's so easy to just sort
Speaker 1: of cross arms and say, oh, couldn't just charming and charismatic.
Speaker 1: You shouldn't have had a second day, says no one ever,
Speaker 1: And then you're writing his behavior off to youth. Any
Speaker 1: parent would be doing that. I actually think there was
Speaker 1: a certain wisdom to your young self to be able
Speaker 1: to say, well, he's young. You're right, twenty one is adolescence.
Speaker 1: We may not think of it in society, but as
Speaker 1: far as your brain is concerned, you're still an adolescent,
Speaker 1: especially a boy, especially a man. And so I think
Speaker 1: to me is that your story is fascinating in that
Speaker 1: way because like all red flags and all this other stuff,
Speaker 1: and you're even saying here, you became young parents, and
Speaker 1: early on he was an attentive father. So whatever red
Speaker 1: flags they were, we're getting eclipsed by all of the
Speaker 1: other stuff that was good. And then this huge looming
Speaker 1: voice of the church, which is telling you you're in
Speaker 1: something great. Yeah. In fact, my kids now they're like,
Speaker 1: why did you marry him? Like he was like, it
Speaker 1: wasn't like this, like you you look back, but it wasn't.
Speaker 1: It was it was young love. But there was I
Speaker 1: think something in my gut that was noticing things that
Speaker 1: were off or that weren't right. But I think that
Speaker 1: I thought, what I want to say is like that
Speaker 1: I could fix it, like I know that you can't
Speaker 1: fix another person. But I haven't mentioned that there was
Speaker 1: a sex addiction that was there as well, and so
Speaker 1: you know pastor that looks at porn, and but I
Speaker 1: think even that it was like, well, like that's a
Speaker 1: normal guy thing, so that that happens. And so I
Speaker 1: think even that it was like, I'm willing to walk
Speaker 1: with you through that. But there were all of these
Speaker 1: things that I saw. I saw things that weren't okay.
Speaker 1: But I wanted the relationship so bad I was willing
Speaker 1: to overlook it. I wanted the love. I wanted what
Speaker 1: he was telling me that we could have and what
Speaker 1: could be, And so we crafted this really beautiful vision together,
Speaker 1: and I think I was willing to go through whatever
Speaker 1: I needed to grow through to grow into making that happen.
Speaker 1: That right there, though, that's the statement I wanted this
Speaker 1: relationship so bad, and the wanting it so bad. If
Speaker 1: there was ever a sort of a moment in any
Speaker 1: kind of toxic relationship, it's that right, because that automatically
Speaker 1: almost becomes a curtain that gets drawn over your eyes
Speaker 1: so you can't see the red flags are like glasses
Speaker 1: that just turn the red flags into not red flags
Speaker 1: kind of thing. But you just don't you want it,
Speaker 1: and you're young, and everyone's telling you it's great. That's
Speaker 1: a lot to push against. But you just dropped a
Speaker 1: bit of a bomb into the conversation. You talk about
Speaker 1: sex addiction. Okay, So I'm having a lot of thoughts
Speaker 1: as I hear you say that. Number one is I
Speaker 1: can't imagine that sex addiction was ever going to be
Speaker 1: viewed in any kind of benevolent lens by a church,
Speaker 1: like a pastor watching porn. That doesn't seem like a
Speaker 1: good brand. Uh No. However, this triangle of the church,
Speaker 1: the church was very forgiving to him, and when something
Speaker 1: would come up or he would get caught. There was
Speaker 1: one significant time in college and the leadership forgave him
Speaker 1: very quickly, and I think it was, oh, you made
Speaker 1: a mistake and this is a struggle. You need to
Speaker 1: get help. And he was like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: And so we even broke up for a time because
Speaker 1: I was like, this isn't okay, And we ended up
Speaker 1: getting back together. In the context of ministry because he
Speaker 1: was just very sorry, and he said the right things
Speaker 1: that he needed to say, and he would say he
Speaker 1: wasn't even being honest about the extent of it. So
Speaker 1: there was no way that I could have known how
Speaker 1: deep that went for him until much later when more
Speaker 1: stuff continued to happen. But like, yes, that's not okay,
Speaker 1: and the church loves a recovery story and the recovery
Speaker 1: stories are beautiful. So then what happened was we became
Speaker 1: this like how we're going to be the recovery story,
Speaker 1: and we became the recovery couple. And that was another
Speaker 1: place for I think him to get more in our
Speaker 1: statistics supply really because that the affirmation then came, look
Speaker 1: at how well he's recovering. And I was the wife
Speaker 1: who stood by her man and who forgave, and we
Speaker 1: were leading a recovery ministry at a church, and so
Speaker 1: it moved. So we actually took this exedition where that
Speaker 1: could have potentially cost him his job or been bad,
Speaker 1: we reframed it and repositioned it to now we're going
Speaker 1: to use our story in order to be able to
Speaker 1: help other couples in recovery. We will be right back
Speaker 1: with this conversation. Whose idea was it to sort of
Speaker 1: shift the narrative over to where the recovery couple, probably
Speaker 1: both of ours together. I think he got involved in recovery.
Speaker 1: And because he's so charismatic, anytime he steps into some somewhere,
Speaker 1: people are going to move him forward into leadership. Whether
Speaker 1: or not he demonstrates the ability to be able to
Speaker 1: carry the weight of that, he just would get put
Speaker 1: into those positions. And so as he then stepped into
Speaker 1: that again, I'm a good wife, so I'm going to
Speaker 1: come alongside. And yeah, so I began to support him,
Speaker 1: and um, I was going through my own stuff, and
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, I can enter into recovery too,
Speaker 1: so I can talk about my family of origin. And
Speaker 1: at that time also I was having repeat in miscarriages
Speaker 1: and we never found out why. And I there's a
Speaker 1: piece of me that will always wonder if my body
Speaker 1: just knew from fear not to procreate with this human anymore,
Speaker 1: because yeah, they never found out why. But so I
Speaker 1: I entered it like my own recovery. And I think
Speaker 1: that the other piece of recovery is all about owning
Speaker 1: your side of the street. And so when you think
Speaker 1: about the family system. Then I needed to work my
Speaker 1: twelve steps. I needed to work my stuff. I needed
Speaker 1: to own my character defects. I needed to own my codependency.
Speaker 1: I needed to own my part that I was playing
Speaker 1: into the system, my need to control my addiction. Addiction
Speaker 1: is all about shame that I needed to own. How
Speaker 1: maybe I was shaming him, and so I think the recovery,
Speaker 1: like me working my stuff became like what I could
Speaker 1: focus on because that's what I could control, I think
Speaker 1: in order to alleviate my fear. And then he was
Speaker 1: supposed to be working his stuff too. How did the
Speaker 1: church find out? Because I understand that you found out
Speaker 1: that he was watching something. Okay, you lived in the
Speaker 1: same home as him, that was not that's not remarkable.
Speaker 1: How did the church find out that he was engaging
Speaker 1: in chronic habitual pornography? Use we were in a master's
Speaker 1: program with the church, and so when he confessed that
Speaker 1: to me, I think, for me, oh, it is not
Speaker 1: appropriate for you to be doing this and be in
Speaker 1: this program. And I value the character of the church
Speaker 1: like I didn't. I wasn't going to be like a
Speaker 1: co conspirator in the hypocrisy. I think I grew up
Speaker 1: around and seeing a lot of hypocrisy, and so I
Speaker 1: think that there was like, we're not going to do this.
Speaker 1: We're going to be honest. We are going to be
Speaker 1: honest about what is going on. And and so that
Speaker 1: brought to the leaders of the program, and so I
Speaker 1: think for him it's like either he's this like failure
Speaker 1: of the program or we turned this ship around to
Speaker 1: become the recovery people. How did he respawn when you
Speaker 1: said to him, you need to come clean if we're
Speaker 1: going to be in this master's program that is still
Speaker 1: affiliated with pastoral study and all of that, How did
Speaker 1: you bring him around? Because I'm just wondering, dude, that
Speaker 1: not bring up a lot of shame for him that
Speaker 1: you're basically saying this you're doing a bad thing and
Speaker 1: it's a bad thing that you need to own up to.
Speaker 1: Or we are then, like you said, you're being a
Speaker 1: co conspirator. So how did he respond to that? He
Speaker 1: was okay with it, because I think that was the
Speaker 1: first time that he didn't get caught. It was a
Speaker 1: like a confession on his part to me, And so
Speaker 1: I think he I know, as I as I think
Speaker 1: about I think that there was something in him that
Speaker 1: either didn't want that wanted to be well, wanted to recover,
Speaker 1: and so I think that was like, this is how
Speaker 1: I'm going to get help. So I do you think
Speaker 1: that there was a piece of that, But I thinks
Speaker 1: as soon as he found out that was going to
Speaker 1: get him attention to because then everybody surrounded him as
Speaker 1: the addict. So that's when that started it too. So
Speaker 1: I think it was a way of getting more now
Speaker 1: looking back, more narcissistic supply. So he got a ton
Speaker 1: of compassion, he got a ton of support. The church
Speaker 1: really rallied around him, the group really rallied around him.
Speaker 1: And now that I see the pattern throughout, nobody really
Speaker 1: surrounded me. I don't know if it come across as
Speaker 1: very strong and capable, and so I think, like she
Speaker 1: has it. Look at how strong she is, like a
Speaker 1: still continued leading in my way and supporting him. But
Speaker 1: I think it all became him. So it really worked
Speaker 1: for him actually to confess, because he got attention, he
Speaker 1: got support from men who then wanted to mentor him,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it really worked actually, But what's interesting to
Speaker 1: me is that's a real lack of empathy and compassion
Speaker 1: because for you, you've experienced a betrayal in your relationship.
Speaker 1: You're a new mom, you're young, and so it was
Speaker 1: all about him and his struggle. But nobody was saying,
Speaker 1: are you okay? Because this is a big revelation to
Speaker 1: unearthed about someone, And in a way that you're saying that,
Speaker 1: is it conceivable that I might have had these repeated
Speaker 1: miscarriages because of this? You're under tremendous stress. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was a real there was a real split in
Speaker 1: your life. You wanted your marriage to work. You you
Speaker 1: believed in it, you felt spiritually committed to it, and
Speaker 1: you were with somebody who had betrayed your trust, and
Speaker 1: you didn't know if you could trust him, and you
Speaker 1: didn't even feel like you knew who he was. When
Speaker 1: we have to live in those inconsistent ways, it's incredibly stressful.
Speaker 1: And so now he actually steps into it, he owns it.
Speaker 1: He may, like you said, he may not have had
Speaker 1: a choice. I mean, listen, I'm going to sound really
Speaker 1: cynical when I say this, but I wonder all this
Speaker 1: entire community of men who embraced him. I don't know
Speaker 1: what the hell they were doing at home, but how
Speaker 1: much his public shame became a place for them almost
Speaker 1: to adhere to a place to almost manage their own shame.
Speaker 1: It becomes this really sort of strange coalesced shame system,
Speaker 1: if you will, that he is now getting validation, which
Speaker 1: I think it's a whole projection thing too, that there
Speaker 1: they have their own shameful stuff, so he and he
Speaker 1: gets to be the repository of it. But even though
Speaker 1: if it was that he was still getting validation, he
Speaker 1: was getting attention. He had a ton of attention. I
Speaker 1: didn't feel like I could be angry. I didn't feel
Speaker 1: like I could be like in that betrayal, like any
Speaker 1: type of boundaries, I feel like I would have said
Speaker 1: like they were mean, and so I didn't feel like
Speaker 1: I could even have my own emotional experience because that
Speaker 1: would have been very like disrespectful. As I'm supposed to
Speaker 1: respect my husband, I'm supposed to honor my husband, so
Speaker 1: too to be angry and bitter and resentful, because it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be that, and so it was
Speaker 1: I'm going to embrace the forgiving and coming alongside of
Speaker 1: him and supporting him in recovery. So I think like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't even remember really even getting angry. It was
Speaker 1: like thinking to triage mode of like how do we
Speaker 1: save how do I save my marriage? How do I
Speaker 1: save the image? So you're basically being told not just
Speaker 1: by your I guess maybe your husband, but the entire
Speaker 1: system around you you're not allowed to have your own emotions,
Speaker 1: which is the ultimate gaslight. I mean, you were collectively
Speaker 1: gaslighted by a system that said you had no right
Speaker 1: to your feelings. You will feel the way we think
Speaker 1: you should feel, and the only way to keep your
Speaker 1: life going was to kind of buy into what they're
Speaker 1: telling you you could feel, which didn't include anger. The
Speaker 1: woman scorned is one of the most dangerous sorts of
Speaker 1: tropes that is out there, because what it does is
Speaker 1: it's a way to literally say to half the population,
Speaker 1: you don't get to be angry, you don't get to
Speaker 1: feel betrayed when you've been betrayed. And so by paying
Speaker 1: tee it as a woman scorn and saying that a
Speaker 1: woman scorned is such an unattractive trope. It's a way
Speaker 1: of effectively shutting down half the population. Honestly, I think
Speaker 1: an angry woman is an incredibly attractive state to be
Speaker 1: in because when a person says I'm angry, I'm having
Speaker 1: a feeling, it's an ownership of emotion, it's an ownership
Speaker 1: of an experience. So, hey, are you women scorned out there,
Speaker 1: unite because there's an army for you as a woman
Speaker 1: scorned in the past. Myself, I really felt I agree
Speaker 1: with that. You really do feel as though if you
Speaker 1: show that somehow you've violated some sort of social code.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's a really important piece that
Speaker 1: folks understand that was gaslighting. You weren't allowed to have reality,
Speaker 1: you weren't allowed to have a real emotional experience, no,
Speaker 1: which I think then kept me in it and kept
Speaker 1: me blind to a lot of things leading into the
Speaker 1: addiction while we were in recovery, using using recovery as
Speaker 1: like a shield in order to act out more and
Speaker 1: for that acting out to get more and more significant.
Speaker 1: So in two thousand fifteen is when I found out
Speaker 1: that he had been for like three years acting out
Speaker 1: with people while we were leading the recovery ministry. So
Speaker 1: I had no idea, and I think that is when
Speaker 1: that was the like the breaking point for me, Like
Speaker 1: as far as like I broke, like I don't know
Speaker 1: if I like broke to make a powerful decision that
Speaker 1: came later, But as far as really I think, oh, like,
Speaker 1: this is really significant and I don't know what is
Speaker 1: going on. I don't know what is true what is
Speaker 1: not true. The cognitive dissonance was incredibly significant at that point,
Speaker 1: and that even then I held back the anger. So like,
Speaker 1: the sad was okay, but the anger I still felt.
Speaker 1: So I felt wrong about being angry. I felt guilty
Speaker 1: about actually acknowledging that this wasn't okay. So the trauma
Speaker 1: was fine, I think for me, like losing my mind
Speaker 1: a little bit was okay. The fear was fine, the
Speaker 1: sad was fine, But the anger I did I needed
Speaker 1: to hold it to the side again because it became
Speaker 1: about him and his recovery in saving our marriage. Where
Speaker 1: do you think you got that message that anger was bad?
Speaker 1: Do you think that was only something that evolved over
Speaker 1: the course of this difficult marriage or was it something
Speaker 1: you were raised with? Oh, definitely something that I was
Speaker 1: raised with. It was okay for my mom to be angry,
Speaker 1: but it was not okay for me to be angry.
Speaker 1: I think that my mom probably has some narcissistic tendencies,
Speaker 1: and so her emotions from the house, and so I
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to feel definitely couldn't be mad at her.
Speaker 1: So and I remember, like one of the things that
Speaker 1: I would say all the time growing up is give
Speaker 1: other people the benefit of the doubt. Okay, so I
Speaker 1: have said this. I said it on red table. I
Speaker 1: said benefit of the doubt of the foremost dangerous words
Speaker 1: in the English language, because what happens is the empathic
Speaker 1: individuals always offering up the benefit of the doubt. That
Speaker 1: allows the people who are causing all kinds of havoc
Speaker 1: to keep getting that benefit. And we are encouraged to
Speaker 1: give people the benefit of the doubt by existing institutions
Speaker 1: and structures, most famously things like the church. Right give
Speaker 1: them the benefit of the doubt, give them the benefit
Speaker 1: of the doubt, the challenges. No one was giving you
Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubt because you weren't allowed to
Speaker 1: be angry. My job is to forgive, and I think
Speaker 1: even with my husband, forgiveness played in so huge to that,
Speaker 1: like part of the being the supportive wife was it
Speaker 1: was my job, my job to forgive and to accept.
Speaker 1: And I remember the Valentine's Day that we were engaged.
Speaker 1: I had stayed up that whole night and then made
Speaker 1: this chain of really nice like things, like every there
Speaker 1: was a piece of paper, and there was a nice
Speaker 1: thing on every piece of paper. And I made this
Speaker 1: huge long chain from Valentine's Day up until our wedding day,
Speaker 1: so there was a thing for every day and I
Speaker 1: had stayed up all night making it. And he did
Speaker 1: nothing for me for Valentine's Day. We were engaged, and
Speaker 1: he didn't do anything for me for Valentine's Day. And
Speaker 1: I remember even in that it was like okay, like
Speaker 1: I've given him night chain, like the chain was like
Speaker 1: so proud of it, and then he just like thanks
Speaker 1: and like received it and there was nothing, and I
Speaker 1: remember lame. I was like I'm sad, Like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: let myself be sad. I'm gonna let myself be sad.
Speaker 1: And so then he came over. I was like, you
Speaker 1: didn't do anything, Like it's Valentine's Day and we're engaged
Speaker 1: and you did nothing, and it like it was like
Speaker 1: almost like he didn't even realize. That was like a sing.
Speaker 1: And then I was like I'm sorry, and then it
Speaker 1: was like are you going to do anything to make
Speaker 1: it right, and it was that we had a very
Speaker 1: explicit conversation around I just needed to forgive, like that
Speaker 1: there wasn't anything that he needed to do to make
Speaker 1: it right, because in this lesson here I needed to
Speaker 1: learn to forgive. In order for us to have a
Speaker 1: successful marriage, I needed to forgive him. And so I
Speaker 1: remember even thinking, this is me being noball, this is
Speaker 1: me being strong, this is me having character to forgive
Speaker 1: and to move forward. And so like there there still wasn't.
Speaker 1: We had issues throughout val about Valentine's date. Throughout our marriage.
Speaker 1: It was like a story that that we would tell.
Speaker 1: But and even then in our recovery journey was a
Speaker 1: story we would tell. I would tell it about look
Speaker 1: at how good I was forgiving. I was a good
Speaker 1: wife man. That old idea of pathologizing every human want
Speaker 1: and every human emotion you had from the beginning meant
Speaker 1: that you're almost in a set up here that all
Speaker 1: relationships were really going to be. Your entire emotional world
Speaker 1: could not exist like you were sort of how to
Speaker 1: underneath them, and you served your function was to be
Speaker 1: there as your mother expected you to be. Your function
Speaker 1: was to be there as your husband expected you to be.
Speaker 1: You jumped from that role to the next one, and
Speaker 1: you simply had to forgive. In a way, I think
Speaker 1: any narcissistic relationship is a process of what I'd call
Speaker 1: forgiveness grooming. They test the waters, they say if they
Speaker 1: can play this game of forgiveness with you, and once
Speaker 1: they recognize forgiveness is on the table, they're off to
Speaker 1: the races and they're fully emboldened. So that's why I
Speaker 1: call it grooming, because it's a process. I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: some small things and for him that Valentine's Day that
Speaker 1: you still remember, I mean, VALENTI all validate. All roads
Speaker 1: of validation are one way streets and the narcissistic world,
Speaker 1: and they all lead to them, right, there's nothing going
Speaker 1: back out. But some of those early things were early
Speaker 1: forgiveness tests. And so when they forgiveness groom and they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: I've got it. And I always say this, that forgiveness
Speaker 1: is really giving the narcissist person. They view it as permission.
Speaker 1: They don't view it as a divine gift. Because I
Speaker 1: really do think when forgiveness is given in its purest
Speaker 1: way and accepted in its purest ways, Wow, this person
Speaker 1: not only as empathy, but they have now given me
Speaker 1: an opportunity to be better, and that if you're on
Speaker 1: the receiving end of forgiveness, you do better at a minimum,
Speaker 1: you never commit the original transaggression again, or if you
Speaker 1: or you're very quick to say, I mean, I'm talking
Speaker 1: about big ticket stuff. I'm not keep talking about keeping
Speaker 1: the toilet seat up stuff. I'm talking about big stuff
Speaker 1: that you commit yourself. And to say somebody granted me
Speaker 1: this divine gift of forgiveness, No, no, no. For the
Speaker 1: narcissistic person, they're like, yo, they forgave me. I'm off
Speaker 1: to the races. I can do anything I want in
Speaker 1: this relationship. And then I'm going to weaponize the forgiveness.
Speaker 1: And not only did do we see even narcissistic people
Speaker 1: who are not in religious systems, not in churches and
Speaker 1: whatnot weaponized forgiveness. If you then have the emboldening hordes
Speaker 1: of validators behind him, which he did literally like an
Speaker 1: entire almost confuse them as flying monkeys of a sort,
Speaker 1: but saying you're entitled to this forgiveness just because then
Speaker 1: he really did think he could do anything he wanted.
Speaker 1: So if we took a year off for significant recovery,
Speaker 1: and we engaged and all that I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do whatever like I need to do to do
Speaker 1: the right thing by this marriage and and forgive. But
Speaker 1: along in that, in that granting the forgiveness, I think
Speaker 1: it actually empowered me in a way. I began to
Speaker 1: feel like stronger in myself and take ownership I think
Speaker 1: of some of my life and not self betray anymore.
Speaker 1: And so then the stronger the stronger that I became,
Speaker 1: and then not giving up on myself. Then that's I
Speaker 1: think when our relationships opped being able to work right.
Speaker 1: So I did start doing the work on myself. I
Speaker 1: think that was a catalyst too, Oh I need to
Speaker 1: do some work here, So even all of the wives
Speaker 1: of sex addicts material it was it's like coming into
Speaker 1: your own and my own twelve step stuff. And really
Speaker 1: did begin to do my own recovery, and I started
Speaker 1: building a career and empowering myself. And I think that's
Speaker 1: been when it didn't I became very frustrated in the
Speaker 1: relationship because I wasn't self betraying and I wasn't going
Speaker 1: to give up on myself. And so then we started
Speaker 1: having a lot of conflict and misalignment. And I think
Speaker 1: because I had forgiven so much, he received that as permission,
Speaker 1: and so he was continuing to act out as long
Speaker 1: as I think he could keep it secret from me.
Speaker 1: But I look back on that is when I started
Speaker 1: to really begin to empower myself and take ownership and
Speaker 1: not self betraying anymore. I love that because when you
Speaker 1: started engaging in a path of self recovery, of of
Speaker 1: focusing on yourself, because the entire sort of recovery power
Speaker 1: couple trope was all focused on him and his recovery.
Speaker 1: But you stepped up, and we're reading these materials and
Speaker 1: going through these programs and say this applies to me too.
Speaker 1: I mean, if we want to view it to an
Speaker 1: addiction model, I we could stretch it a little and
Speaker 1: say there was an addiction to being a part of
Speaker 1: something like this, to being part of this, to being
Speaker 1: part of this marriage that was being valued, and as
Speaker 1: as being these people who are sort of these models
Speaker 1: in the recovery community. But you became individuated, as you
Speaker 1: completely became more and more aligned with yourself. That's the
Speaker 1: moment at which the narcissistic relationship no longer works. It's over.
Speaker 1: Then it is absolutely over. And it can escalate. It
Speaker 1: can get angry, you can get dangerous. Sometimes they can
Speaker 1: even get violent, and people can get ostracized and everyone
Speaker 1: will say you're no good. You were in a church community.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they didn't view this very well and you
Speaker 1: so everyone's going to put you out. But that's the
Speaker 1: path forward to healing. You just didn't know that, because
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like you were using the framework of
Speaker 1: narcissism at that point. There's two things I want to
Speaker 1: get to. One thing you said really struck me with
Speaker 1: that again, as part of the work of recovery, I'm
Speaker 1: very aware that it's this idea of taking ownership of
Speaker 1: your quote unquote character defects? Right, did he publicly? He
Speaker 1: would say all the right things. So, yes, like he did.
Speaker 1: My oldest son was looking at pictures like he's such
Speaker 1: a shape shifter, like he just could shape shift to wherever,
Speaker 1: and so he could learn the language of recovery and
Speaker 1: learn what he needed to confess and what the character
Speaker 1: defects were. And so did he did he acknowledge them?
Speaker 1: Did he do any work to change them? No, he
Speaker 1: would acknowledge it, but not necessarily do anything about it.
Speaker 1: Someone once said to me, insight is the booby prize
Speaker 1: if it's not. If it's not with action, right, if
Speaker 1: somebody says, here's all my insights, I'm like, okay, so
Speaker 1: then change the behavior. Without the behavior change, it's worth nothing.
Speaker 1: I can say this as a therapist. My client could
Speaker 1: sit there and go on and on and on. I
Speaker 1: get it. I get it, I get it. But if
Speaker 1: they come back the next week and said, well I
Speaker 1: did all the same things I did, then I said,
Speaker 1: then what is that? So in a way, what he
Speaker 1: was doing was performative recovery. So it was, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm putting on the show that people want to hear
Speaker 1: and following the program as it were, and all of
Speaker 1: that as twelve step would have you do. But he
Speaker 1: was continuing to engage in the behavior. And your son's
Speaker 1: observation such an interesting one to just even as a
Speaker 1: teaching point, in the sense that he said his father
Speaker 1: is a shape shifter. Right. Narcissistic people are very shape shifty.
Speaker 1: All toxic people are shape shifting because they want one
Speaker 1: thing and one thing only, which is validation. So they're
Speaker 1: going to be whatever they need to be. They're going
Speaker 1: to mirror whatever they need to mirror in a given
Speaker 1: sort of an environment so that they can get that validation.
Speaker 1: It's of a process of emulation. They become what they
Speaker 1: need to become. They say what they need to say,
Speaker 1: so everything they say is superficial. It's a sort of
Speaker 1: a superficial preaching of scripture. They will say what they
Speaker 1: need to say to get the parishioners really worked out,
Speaker 1: but they actually don't necessarily live in accordance with that,
Speaker 1: and that in the recovery space he was beginning to
Speaker 1: learn if you say X, Y, and z in this space.
Speaker 1: And it's sad because I would imagine many of the
Speaker 1: other people he was speaking to may have been genuinely
Speaker 1: committed to recovery and they were falling for this huckster,
Speaker 1: basically sort of a recovery huckster who was up there
Speaker 1: and preaching really the non truth, which ultimately, if they
Speaker 1: find out the other people who are in recovery, that's
Speaker 1: a betrayal to them as well. It speaks to how
Speaker 1: little empathy he had. I mean, I ask, were you
Speaker 1: seeing sort of pastoral or Christian therapists, the therapist that
Speaker 1: we were seeing our couples therapy. She was a part
Speaker 1: of a church, and so I think that's when I
Speaker 1: really began to realize this idolization almost of family and marriage.
Speaker 1: And so even like the talk around you know, your
Speaker 1: marriage comes first before your kids, like you need to
Speaker 1: have a solid marriage so the kids feel safe and
Speaker 1: secure in in the marriage the unity of that, and
Speaker 1: I think in a healthy situation, that's important to cultivate
Speaker 1: that relationship in the context of family. Um. But there
Speaker 1: was like this idolization almost to where then there would
Speaker 1: be a toleration of things that was really that were
Speaker 1: really toxic. And I think even in that and seeing
Speaker 1: his patterns and how he was showing up and then
Speaker 1: how he was showing up with the kids, the older
Speaker 1: that they got and the more that they were experiencing
Speaker 1: him and maybe not feeling so safe and seeing the
Speaker 1: hypocrisy and seeing the lying and the distant like in
Speaker 1: there they I raised them to be very empowered and
Speaker 1: to speak their mind, and so they created a lot
Speaker 1: of conflict between him and his kids, and so there
Speaker 1: was this so I was like, Okay, this isn't going
Speaker 1: to change. This is how it's going to be. If
Speaker 1: I take marriage off of the idolizing it and really
Speaker 1: look at is this healthy for me? No? Is this
Speaker 1: going to be healthy for my kids? No? And at
Speaker 1: this point now we're just continuing the generational cycles. Like
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is how this keeps going.
Speaker 1: And I've been in enough twelve step rooms to see
Speaker 1: and hear people talk about their kids. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: Like this isn't going to be That's not going to
Speaker 1: be my story, and so I need to do something different,
Speaker 1: which I look back now and just how courageous that
Speaker 1: was to step away from people who I value, like
Speaker 1: I respected so much, and to have the courage to say, no,
Speaker 1: this actually doesn't work for me, and we're going to
Speaker 1: we're going to end this. It's incredibly courageous because to
Speaker 1: step away from the sort of toxic, confusing, gas slided,
Speaker 1: manipulative mess of a narcissistic relationship is difficult on any day,
Speaker 1: But when you have an entire organization enabling and emboldening
Speaker 1: this person, you know that you're going to have to
Speaker 1: face down their disapproval. Since you were a child, ministry
Speaker 1: was important to you. This was core to who you
Speaker 1: were philosophically and spiritually, This wasn't just about breaking up
Speaker 1: a marriage in a strange way, it was breaking up
Speaker 1: with your conception of God. That's really big and so
Speaker 1: to do that, you actually did something that I hope
Speaker 1: for all survivors. You found a true north, and your
Speaker 1: true north were your children. You said, I am not
Speaker 1: repeating these intergenerational cycles. And it takes that because you
Speaker 1: you saw how much easier it would have been to
Speaker 1: keep it the way it was. You broke out of
Speaker 1: that path because there was something bigger than you, and
Speaker 1: for once in your family system, instead of making it
Speaker 1: about these ephemeral ideas of marriage and faith and family,
Speaker 1: you made it about your living, breathing children. That's how
Speaker 1: people break the cycles of narcissistic relationships. Our session will
Speaker 1: continue after this break. So you make the decision you're
Speaker 1: going to do. I mean again, I can't say enough
Speaker 1: how courageous it was you decided to leave. What did
Speaker 1: that look like? We were on a vacation, just the
Speaker 1: two of us, and I found out that he was
Speaker 1: still continuing to look at pornography after everything that we
Speaker 1: had been through, and not just that, but he was
Speaker 1: continuing to lie about it. And so I think for
Speaker 1: me at that point, it wasn't necessarily about the sex addiction.
Speaker 1: It was the lying. It was that he could look
Speaker 1: me in the eye and tell me an untruth and
Speaker 1: I don't know how to continue a relationship with that
Speaker 1: when you can't trust the person who you are partnering
Speaker 1: with for life to to be honest. It was very
Speaker 1: significant to me and I asked him to leave. I
Speaker 1: think another piece was that I began talking to people
Speaker 1: who were completely removed from our situation. So I got
Speaker 1: some really wise counsel and they connected me with some
Speaker 1: people who lead a marriage ministry at a very large
Speaker 1: church and another part of the country, and so I
Speaker 1: had a lot of respect for their experience and they
Speaker 1: were like, you need like, no, this is not okay.
Speaker 1: You need to empower yourself and ask him to leave.
Speaker 1: And we separated bank accounts and they really encouraged me to,
Speaker 1: I think, make things difficult for him so that he
Speaker 1: could make the choice like he would need to choose.
Speaker 1: And during that time of separation, he continued to violate boundaries.
Speaker 1: He continued to not tell the truth, he didn't show
Speaker 1: up for the kids, he continued to make it about him,
Speaker 1: so he would go on these men's retreats he would
Speaker 1: go on because he needed to be around. Why is
Speaker 1: people and good people bring into him while I'm like
Speaker 1: left alone working a full time job and with a
Speaker 1: ten and thirteen year old basically raising them at that point,
Speaker 1: all on my own. And it was like, Oh, he
Speaker 1: doesn't really want it. He doesn't he's not willing to
Speaker 1: do the work. I know what the work looks like,
Speaker 1: and so it just became clear, this is what I
Speaker 1: need to do, and I asked for a divorce and
Speaker 1: that it was like, do you think that this is
Speaker 1: what God wants? You told me, you vowed that you
Speaker 1: would never divorce me. You're going back on your commitments,
Speaker 1: like I am. And so I was like, yes, that
Speaker 1: is what I'm doing. And it was like, the kids
Speaker 1: are always going to know that you were the one
Speaker 1: who decided this. I'm like, I'm actually cool with that.
Speaker 1: So he turned it back on me, and I think
Speaker 1: I had done so much work and I was, I think,
Speaker 1: expecting those arguments, and so it was all right. And
Speaker 1: then even in the whole divorce process, it's very different,
Speaker 1: I think from a normal narcissist because he didn't fight
Speaker 1: me on anything. He didn't want custody. He didn't even
Speaker 1: fight me on stuff, like he left, but he like
Speaker 1: like left in such a way where I was the
Speaker 1: one who was making all the decisions. So I was
Speaker 1: the one who was deciding that this is what was happening,
Speaker 1: and this is what this was ending. And he began
Speaker 1: very quickly after we were married, which the boys after.
Speaker 1: I mean we were married for over seventeen years, and
Speaker 1: so I think that that was very hard for my kids,
Speaker 1: and he didn't understand that they were still working their
Speaker 1: process like he just there was no empathy towards them.
Speaker 1: So I think, like how he had been treating me
Speaker 1: for years, then it began treating the children that way,
Speaker 1: and that became not okay. And so I think they
Speaker 1: had grown up seeing how like me repeatedly go back
Speaker 1: and go back and go back and go back, and
Speaker 1: they want something different for themselves too, So then they
Speaker 1: made the choice that they didn't want to see him anymore.
Speaker 1: He continued to make choices. I asked for full custody,
Speaker 1: and he fought it a little bit because I think
Speaker 1: therapists were like, you don't want you don't want to
Speaker 1: give her full custody, Like, don't do that, but I
Speaker 1: knew he wanted his freedom, and so it's like, you can.
Speaker 1: You can have your freedom, you can do what you want,
Speaker 1: you can marry whoever you want, move wherever you want,
Speaker 1: and I actually want to raise kids. So and he
Speaker 1: willingly just signed the papers, so I have a percent
Speaker 1: legal in physical custody. That yeah, so he just gave
Speaker 1: it all up again. You did something that I think
Speaker 1: is really interesting. It's something for everyone to pay attention to.
Speaker 1: He hit you with all these shaming, manipulative pieces. You
Speaker 1: did something interesting. You were steadfast. You're like, yep, I'm
Speaker 1: breaking my vows. Okay, I guess God's gonna be mad.
Speaker 1: Like you were just like, okay, you didn't let yourself
Speaker 1: get gaslighted at that moment. I am convinced that when
Speaker 1: you did that, he was done because there was no
Speaker 1: path inward, that none of the portals of manipulation were
Speaker 1: open anymore, and you were no longer an interesting source
Speaker 1: of validation and narcissistic supply. Your supply became uninteresting at
Speaker 1: that point. So, as you said, then he and he
Speaker 1: couldn't do it to the kids either, So none of
Speaker 1: you are supply. He started dating right away because he
Speaker 1: was going to get more supply. And when we look
Speaker 1: at the sex addiction model, one of the things we
Speaker 1: do see is that there's an impairment in intimacy. When
Speaker 1: we see this in narcissism too, there's no capacity for mutual,
Speaker 1: reciprocal loving relationships that are sustained and have depth. They
Speaker 1: do not have interest. For a narcissistic person, a relationship
Speaker 1: is just a source of validation and admiration, and so
Speaker 1: moving on to a new one is actually quite easy
Speaker 1: for them because it never went deep in the first place.
Speaker 1: So how do you fit spirituality and church into your life? Now? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been a little complicated, And I think it's I'm
Speaker 1: allowing myself the journey. And so I think that there
Speaker 1: is a reconnecting to God in my higher power from
Speaker 1: an individual right, so as a very personal place, like
Speaker 1: what does he have to say about me and to
Speaker 1: me and his love for me for me, not focusing
Speaker 1: on love for the addict and right, and like how
Speaker 1: I need to forgive, but like for me? And I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: what does he want for me? And to be free
Speaker 1: from toxic relationships and free from abuse? And I'm still
Speaker 1: figuring out stuff with the church. I love. I love
Speaker 1: the church, I love community, and I love hope, and
Speaker 1: I do love forgiveness and grace. So still on a
Speaker 1: journey I think figuring that out. I think that all
Speaker 1: healthy relationships are about mutual recognition, and any relationship with
Speaker 1: any human being, or honestly, any relationship with God has
Speaker 1: to be one of mutual recognition, and that it can
Speaker 1: be tricky that some in many cases, people can turn
Speaker 1: God into an enabler. But I do think that if
Speaker 1: you can hold space and say I will only be
Speaker 1: in relationships character rise by mutual recognition, then people can
Speaker 1: craft that kind of relationship with a higher power, with
Speaker 1: whatever sort of spiritual north star they're navigating by. And
Speaker 1: I think that's a huge part of healing from narcissistic abuse.
Speaker 1: And you speak about redemption, you know, and I think
Speaker 1: that for me that this the redemption story and narcissistic
Speaker 1: abuse and or the mistake people have been making for
Speaker 1: the longest time is on the redemption of the narcissist. Frankly,
Speaker 1: I have little interest in the redemption of the narcissist.
Speaker 1: Too much harm has been done. I believe wholeheartedly though,
Speaker 1: in the redemption of the survivor, because I think many
Speaker 1: survivors blame themselves. They blame themselves. How did I not
Speaker 1: see this? How did I get stuck for so long?
Speaker 1: Why did I put up with this? How did I contribute?
Speaker 1: How is I responsible? Maybe I didn't forgive enough? Redemption
Speaker 1: then becomes letting go of that. You showed up. You
Speaker 1: showed up as a good, empathic, forgiving person who wanted
Speaker 1: to be there for that person, and that the redemption
Speaker 1: and is then to set yourself free and then to
Speaker 1: again to stand in your power and to say you
Speaker 1: can gaslight, manipulate me, fool me, tricked me, and charis
Speaker 1: me all you want. I'm out. I'm not doing this anymore.
Speaker 1: You talked about your son had pointed out, I think
Speaker 1: dad's a shape shifter. How did your children make sense
Speaker 1: of their father's behavior, especially since he dropped out of
Speaker 1: their lives so in the marriage, Because we were so
Speaker 1: involved in recovery world, you know, they spent hours sitting
Speaker 1: outside a therapist office. They have spent hours in childcare
Speaker 1: recovering meetings. They were usually aware that any time a
Speaker 1: woman was over at our house with kids that usually
Speaker 1: her husband had done something that wasn't okay, They were
Speaker 1: aware of the things, and my son had found his
Speaker 1: journal that had talked about the massage parlors and things,
Speaker 1: and so ten years old explaining that to him. So
Speaker 1: they were aware. They knew that I lost my main
Speaker 1: basically in two thousand and fift team, and so they
Speaker 1: had I think, a front row seat really to seeing
Speaker 1: recovery and to seeing me forgive and seeing me stay.
Speaker 1: And then they saw him continue to not show up,
Speaker 1: and so I think they they made their own decisions.
Speaker 1: And they talked to my oldest and he said it's
Speaker 1: the financial piece that spoke out most to him, like
Speaker 1: that his dad wasn't like a hard worker and like
Speaker 1: a provider and that really affected him. And then just
Speaker 1: not making being a good role model as a man.
Speaker 1: And so they said, Dad, this is what we need
Speaker 1: in order to be around you. We need to get therapy,
Speaker 1: We need for you to go to your twelve step,
Speaker 1: and we need you to be single, like he just
Speaker 1: screwed up a marriage. Please get yourself together like they
Speaker 1: wanted to do well. And he refused to do those
Speaker 1: things because the narcissistic supply was coming from other women
Speaker 1: and her children and things, and that became just very clear.
Speaker 1: So I think they feel very safe and secure in
Speaker 1: the home that I can provide, Like they know that
Speaker 1: he's going to make his choices, and I think they're like,
Speaker 1: as we're still forming our identity, we don't want to
Speaker 1: be around that crazy. We see how you treat people
Speaker 1: that you say you love, so you go and do
Speaker 1: that and maybe in the future as adults we can
Speaker 1: have a very shallow relationship. One time, the oldest we
Speaker 1: were talking and he was just talking about his own
Speaker 1: grief with his dad, and he was saying, I feel
Speaker 1: like I have a phantom leg, like when you lose
Speaker 1: a leg and you feel like you have a leg
Speaker 1: because I have a dad, but I don't have a dad.
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, it's kind of like that.
Speaker 1: He's like, but I got a really strong other leg,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, this other legs really tired.
Speaker 1: His son is a bit of a genius because one
Speaker 1: thing that a lot of people may not know about
Speaker 1: phantom limb unless they've had a phantom limb is that
Speaker 1: the phantom limb hurts, and so people of phantom limb
Speaker 1: syndrome amputees have pain. So there's no arm and they
Speaker 1: feel the pain in that space in that leg. So
Speaker 1: your son saying he had a phantom father, he was
Speaker 1: still experiencing the pain of that invalidating father. Her son
Speaker 1: says something so profound and interesting here, characterizing his relationship
Speaker 1: with his father to having a phantom leg. Phantom limb
Speaker 1: syndrome is a very real medical phenomenon which occurs in
Speaker 1: people who have lost a limb to amputation, and despite
Speaker 1: the limb no longer being there, the person still feels
Speaker 1: real pain as though the limb was still there, and
Speaker 1: that can be very distressing and uncomfortable. Her son is saying,
Speaker 1: I still have two parents in the world, but not
Speaker 1: only does one no longer really exist in my life,
Speaker 1: Like he says, it's like a phantom leg. I still
Speaker 1: feel grief. Just like a phantom leg, you still feel
Speaker 1: the pain even when the limb isn't there, and even
Speaker 1: a prosthetic isn't a cure. The pain remains. I'd never
Speaker 1: heard of that kind of characterization before, but it really
Speaker 1: does capture that complicated and lingering grief that many people,
Speaker 1: particularly children who are survivors of narcissistic parents, will often express. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're still experiencing the pain. I mean the other thing
Speaker 1: that he said about the phantom leg and he was like,
Speaker 1: and he's like, you can get a prosthetic because I've
Speaker 1: been encouraging them to make relationships with other men. But
Speaker 1: you to your point, like that pain is still there
Speaker 1: and you can't see it. And I think that that's
Speaker 1: the hard thing of explaining with community. I think people
Speaker 1: are like, come on, get out there, start dating and
Speaker 1: you're good now, and like move on. And I appreciate
Speaker 1: it so much that there's a pain that people can't
Speaker 1: see and the trauma bonding and the betrayal bonding. It
Speaker 1: gets real. And I'm still working, I think through a
Speaker 1: lot of that, and my kids working through their griefs.
Speaker 1: So we are like I feel like we're doing our
Speaker 1: best to create try to create something new, and we
Speaker 1: are and moving forward, but it's just it's taking us
Speaker 1: a minute where like that the pain is just still
Speaker 1: still there. And I love that about the phantom like
Speaker 1: host still and that's it's it's a big issue and
Speaker 1: treatment actually an amputees, so in a way we have
Speaker 1: to it's a retraining, which is what recovery is. And
Speaker 1: I think that ultimately though by this story, the whole
Speaker 1: idea of performative recovery. Recovery is a very real process.
Speaker 1: I've worked with many people who who have lived with
Speaker 1: substance use disorders, with other forms of addictive disorders, addictive behavior.
Speaker 1: When people commit to the process of recovery in a
Speaker 1: whole way, in an authentic way, in an empathic way,
Speaker 1: and in that recognition of all of us have human frailty,
Speaker 1: I've seen amazing things happen. Narcissism is almost a complete
Speaker 1: block against recovery because there's no humility, there's only grandi city.
Speaker 1: It is still about ego, and there's ego. There cannot
Speaker 1: be recovery in that way. And so I think that
Speaker 1: that this is you know, to want listeners to know.
Speaker 1: I very much believe in the process of recovery from addiction.
Speaker 1: But I gotta tell you, when narcissisms on board, forget
Speaker 1: about it, it really it muddies the waters in a
Speaker 1: way that I have not seen. All I see is
Speaker 1: just a lifetime history of not only relapse, but also
Speaker 1: harm to other people who are often viewed as the
Speaker 1: vessels of blame for that person's incapacity to actually step
Speaker 1: up and take responsibility. So I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 1: Your story is just profound, and your story is also
Speaker 1: interesting because religious communities, the church in many ways let
Speaker 1: you down, but then it didn't because in the same
Speaker 1: breath there were people within the church and areas of
Speaker 1: the church that told you, get out, save yourself, take
Speaker 1: care of yourself. You deserve better. It's easy to paint
Speaker 1: something as big as the church is doing only bad.
Speaker 1: Parts of the church did bad, but parts of the
Speaker 1: church did good. And I think that's important for people
Speaker 1: in spiritual communities to realize that their faith matters to
Speaker 1: them as part of their healing, and they just have
Speaker 1: they may just have to find a different path within
Speaker 1: it that works for them, and to recognize that there
Speaker 1: can be bad actors anywhere in this world, even under
Speaker 1: this sort of mantle of the divine. So thank you
Speaker 1: for opening up about how varied that process was for
Speaker 1: you to thank you so much for having me. Here
Speaker 1: are some takeaways from my conversation with today's guest. In
Speaker 1: this story, we learned that when a person is struggling
Speaker 1: in a toxic relationship, they may feel okay with sadness
Speaker 1: or fear, but not with anger. In narcissistic relationships, People
Speaker 1: are often uncomfortable with their own anger, and it is
Speaker 1: often judged quite harshly, especially if there are other forces
Speaker 1: like family or systems like churches involved. Anger done right
Speaker 1: can be a profound motivator and can take us out
Speaker 1: of a passive role into a more active one. If
Speaker 1: you are in a toxic relationship, let that anger fuel
Speaker 1: you to make decisions that protect you instead of always
Speaker 1: protecting the narcissistic person. In our next takeaway, remember to
Speaker 1: be very wary when you view yourself as a branded couple.
Speaker 1: They went from being the leadership couple to the recovery couple,
Speaker 1: and we have heard of people calling themselves the power couple. Right.
Speaker 1: This stance often works for the validation seeker and means
Speaker 1: that the individuals in the relationship get lost, so then
Speaker 1: people often find themselves fighting for the brand of the
Speaker 1: relationship rather than clearly seeing the red flags that are
Speaker 1: popping up everywhere. In this next takeaway, let's remember that
Speaker 1: forgiveness is the paradox of the narcissistic relationship and unfortunately
Speaker 1: is what propels the narcissistic relationship forward. It harms you,
Speaker 1: helps them, and is encouraged by the world at large.
Speaker 1: The toxic folks keep doing manipulative and entitled things that
Speaker 1: the other person feels they don't have a right to
Speaker 1: their feelings and that they are being a bad person
Speaker 1: for not forgiving. So you forgive, and the patterns perpetuate.
Speaker 1: The more you forgive, the more toxic narcissistic relationship gets.
Speaker 1: This story teaches us that when that day comes, for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, it comes, when you start doing your own
Speaker 1: work on yourself, start finding yourself as an individual with
Speaker 1: needs and feelings, separate from the relationship, and start silencing
Speaker 1: the voices of the enablers, that's the day the relationship
Speaker 1: will start to unravel. The rules of engagement in a
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationship are that all validation is for them. They
Speaker 1: are entitled to do and say what they want. Your
Speaker 1: personhood doesn't matter, and how dare you think otherwise? When
Speaker 1: those rules start getting violated, they will fight you, manipulate you,
Speaker 1: look for new supply, or just leave. Narcissistic people are
Speaker 1: very prone to something we can call performative recovery, recovery
Speaker 1: from addictive or other unhealthy behavior just to get validation.
Speaker 1: It may look like recovery to the world, who is
Speaker 1: cheering the person on, but it's pseudo recovery, and the
Speaker 1: person may still not only be continuing to engage in
Speaker 1: the addictive or problematic behavior, but also continue you to
Speaker 1: do harm to those closest to them, all the while
Speaker 1: being cheered on from the recovery brigade. If you are
Speaker 1: continuing to be harmed by your relationship, even if they
Speaker 1: suggest you have to stay in the name of their recovery,
Speaker 1: their recovery is their responsibility and it's an inside job,
Speaker 1: not just to get validation from the world. Hey. Everyone,
Speaker 1: so I've been welcoming hearing your emails and I have
Speaker 1: one that somebody sent in, So let me let me
Speaker 1: read this one to you. This person asks, Hi, I'm
Speaker 1: growing up with a narcissistic mother to say the least,
Speaker 1: and being abused. I'd love to explore those family dynamics,
Speaker 1: especially that of the truth teller or the knower, and
Speaker 1: the impacts that has on a daughter. So, first of all,
Speaker 1: thanks everyone for listening, and thank you for sending in
Speaker 1: your questions. This is such an important question. It's so
Speaker 1: funny because everyone says, oh, aren't all narcissists men, Well,
Speaker 1: obviously not, because a lot of folks of narciss system mothers,
Speaker 1: and it's one of the most difficult relationships a person
Speaker 1: can have, And frankly, I think it's really profound for
Speaker 1: a daughter, because we grow up with this idea that
Speaker 1: a mother is supposed to have our back like nobody
Speaker 1: else's supposed to be unconditional of care giving, that person
Speaker 1: who is all about us and just wants best for us.
Speaker 1: So when a person starts to recognize that their mother
Speaker 1: actually isn't at all that and only will notice you
Speaker 1: when you're sort of in service to them, that's a
Speaker 1: really heartbreaking moment. And the person writing this email self
Speaker 1: identifies is what we call a truth teller. The truth
Speaker 1: tellers the child in the narcissistic system who kind of
Speaker 1: gets it, like even from a pretty young age. They
Speaker 1: may not know the word narcissist, but there's something with
Speaker 1: the look in their eyes that they give their parents
Speaker 1: or parents or family system that in a way, the
Speaker 1: narcissistic person almost feels unmasked. And as a result, there's
Speaker 1: a real likely that that truth telling child can also
Speaker 1: often become a scapegoat to child within that family. So
Speaker 1: in terms of the impact, certainly in childhood, the impacts
Speaker 1: can be really quite harrowing. The child often self blaming
Speaker 1: for what's happening, often almost doubting even though their insights
Speaker 1: are on point. They start to almost get uh indoctrinated
Speaker 1: into doubting themselves and also having a lot of fear
Speaker 1: because they get it. They note that they'll often bear
Speaker 1: the brunt of the punishment or the rejection or the negation.
Speaker 1: And kids coming out of these environments, including truthtelling, kids
Speaker 1: often feel like they're not enough, and that kind of
Speaker 1: thinking and that sort of identity can definitely trail a
Speaker 1: person into adulthood. So it undercuts your sense of self,
Speaker 1: It undercuts your self evaluation, it undercuts what you think
Speaker 1: you can be in the world as you go into adulthood.
Speaker 1: You can easily see how having had a an invalidating,
Speaker 1: emotionally abusive, rejecting, and critical mother can set you up
Speaker 1: for entering this cycle again and again of entering into
Speaker 1: relationships where sort of rejection and invalidation is almost normalized.
Speaker 1: Narcissistic parents, especially mothers, can be quite tricky because there
Speaker 1: can be some really great days or moments and you
Speaker 1: almost hoard them like little trinkets you put in a box,
Speaker 1: like you want, you want to collect as many as
Speaker 1: you can, because when that happens, you're like, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: in a normal family, and then before long it's going
Speaker 1: to happen that something very invalidated will happen. So you're
Speaker 1: constantly caught in that back and forth, and there's a
Speaker 1: risk of recreating those cycles and adult relationships by choosing
Speaker 1: people who behave in the same way. But there's a
Speaker 1: bit of bright sort of a bit of good news
Speaker 1: in this person's question because I identified as a truth teller.
Speaker 1: Being the truth teller in a narcissistic system is a
Speaker 1: really interesting role because I think ultimately it's a protective role.
Speaker 1: It's sort of a superpower you're born with. You're able
Speaker 1: to call BS or at least CBS when it's happening
Speaker 1: in front of you from a very early age. If
Speaker 1: you could hold on to that superpower, that detection, that
Speaker 1: ability to see toxic behavior when it's in front of you,
Speaker 1: and carry that into adulthood and not fall back into
Speaker 1: the patterns of self doubt, you really have a powerful superpower.
Speaker 1: In this day and age when more and more of
Speaker 1: us are encountering more and more toxic people. The real
Speaker 1: trick is to take back your sovereignty, to become someone
Speaker 1: separate from your mother, To recognize, above all else, you
Speaker 1: were not responsible for your mother's behavior, To be able
Speaker 1: to detach that and recognize your mother's issues were hers.
Speaker 1: You are enough, and her treatment of you is not
Speaker 1: a reflection of you. It's a reflection of how she
Speaker 1: perceived and continues likely to perceive the world. And I
Speaker 1: know this topic of narcissistic mothers is compelling for so
Speaker 1: many of you, So you're really going to be looking
Speaker 1: forward to the episode we have coming up where we're
Speaker 1: going to have someone go into pretty brutal detail, how
Speaker 1: about what their relationship was like with a narcissistic mother
Speaker 1: and how that shaped her trajectory and her career going forward.
Speaker 1: A big thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith,
Speaker 1: Valon Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton, and Dr rominey Der Vassila. And
Speaker 1: thank you to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Maria
Speaker 1: Della Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you
Speaker 1: to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff.