WEBVTT - How Munchausen Syndrome Works 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.840 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.560 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff You Should Know 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:16.360 from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:18.960 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always as 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:22.560 Charles W. Chuck Bryant that makes this stuff you should 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:28.680 know the podcast. Like you didn't know, how's it going? 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.120 It's going great. Your nails are still shiny. I got 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.800 my first manicure last week and I went for the 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.760 clear cooat and I didn't know. I didn't know this 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:41.680 about Now that's an overcoat. I didn't know this about Chuck. 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.200 But he um bites his nail, so he has very shiny, 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:50.240 well trimmed half nail stubs. Yeah, a little bleedy cuticles. 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.920 It's like you have some sort of like carratin deficiency 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.720 or something. Let's go with that. But it's very shiny, 0:00:57.160 --> 0:01:00.560 like the carratin you do have is radioactive or I 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.319 could fake, like I have a charrotin deficiency. Speaking of faking, Chuck, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.960 that's just amazing that you said that word, because we're 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:13.399 going to talk about a syndrome wherein people perfectly healthy people, 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.120 at least you start out healthy, fake their own illness 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:21.800 bear with me? Yeah. Have you seen the movie The 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:26.920 Sixth Sense? Have you seen the television show The O C? No, 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.040 you've never seen The C. I used to be hooked 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:32.679 on that really. Oh yeah, is that how you got 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.560 rid of TV? Yea, it was. I can't. It's ruining 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.800 my life. Um. I can't remember the girl's name in 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.280 The o C. But she plays the girl in the 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.360 Sixth Sense who dies and who shows up to Haley 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.760 Joel Osmond's character. Is it Misha Barton, like the lead girl? Yeah? Yeah, really, 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:51.240 she was the little girl in that. Yes, she was 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:53.200 that she had to vomit, and remember she was like 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.640 hanging outside of his tent and just scaring the tar 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:58.440 out of him. Well yeah, but she turned out to 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:00.560 be okay. She's a little upset that her mom was 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.720 feeding her pines, all right, right, and she eventually dies. 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.040 She had videotaped herself. I hope everyone's seen The Sixth Sense. 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.919 If you haven't, I'm actually not really spoiling it. There's 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.760 a way I could spoil it way worse than this. 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.520 But um, she videotapes her mother poisoning her soup with 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.120 pine salt, and her mom is outed for having what's 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.239 called Munchausen's biproxy and that's a derivative of what's called 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:29.639 Munchausen syndrome, right, Munchhausen. That's another way to put it. Yeah, 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:31.720 they also call it a f II. Have you heard 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:38.240 that factitious? Clothes fabricated or induced illness? Where's the other 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:42.560 F or f I? F I induced illness? Yeah, my 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.079 brain didn't function. But yeah, you're gonna say facetious disorder, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.799 which is what it is, factitious factitious. I feel like 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:52.760 a dummy. No. I was like, yeah, that's pretty facetious. 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:55.880 I remember when I came across the word facetious. I 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.160 I used it in um my everyday vocabulary, or tried 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.280 to and um but I was reading it in books 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.720 here there and never put the two together. So finally 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.960 I'm like, what is that word? And I sounded it 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:13.680 out and fastidious, fastidious, facetious. I was like, oh that's facetious. 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.120 Oh yeah, no, fastidious Is that what you were thinking? 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:21.160 It's like facet like the facet of a diamond. I 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:26.440 O U S. And this is fastidious. I've been reading 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:32.040 this wrong. Okay, this is factitious factitious. Dummy. We keep 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:33.959 this in Yeah, I think, so okay, all right, let's 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.800 do this. Okay. So um, this is like munchaus In orders. 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:44.560 You say, munkh Housen syndrome is a really mysterious disorder. Um. 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.880 People imagine it's extremely rare. Um, but we have no 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:52.280 idea how prevalent it is because one of the hallmark 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:58.160 characteristics of Munkhausen Munchausen syndrome is that it is dishonesty. Yeah, right, 0:03:58.520 --> 0:03:59.800 like you don't want to admit you have it. That's 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.119 the who point, no, and and to define it's it's 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.960 where somebody who is not ill either fakes an illness 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.000 or makes themselves intentionally ill in order to be able 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.160 to go seek medical care and or sympathy and empathy 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.720 from friends, neighbors, relatives for you know, having an illness 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:23.960 inflicted upon them. Yeah, it's like fight Club at Norton 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.480 and Helena Bottom Carter visit support groups for illnesses to 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.040 get you know, get attention and feel a part of 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:35.040 a club. I guess, right exactly. And that's actually there's 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.760 a new thing called Monkhausen by internet. Yeah, that's a 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.840 big one. And that's like a new deal where you 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.120 go online to online support groups and fainn being sick 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:45.680 just to feel like you're fitting in. I guess right, 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.960 And it is said, but as we'll figure out, UMM, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:54.760 Munchausen by internet is actually kind of a um. It 0:04:54.920 --> 0:05:00.960 provides somewhat less harmful sucker to people who need that. Right, 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:05.720 So you're still feeding this pathological illness. It's not ill, 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.360 but mentally it's just as dangerous. Physically, it's not because 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.880 you're getting what you want, what you crave, what you need, 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.480 which is that attention and that sympathy. But you're not 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:20.320 having to like inject gasoline to get it, and you're 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.400 not going to the doctors, and you're not running up 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:26.800 insurance premiums that shouldn't be there and all that bad 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.360 stuff that happens with the real Monchhausen. Well, let's talk 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.880 about the history of this. Well, one I think was 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:38.560 when it was first described by Richard Asher in the Lancet, Right, 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.520 that's when it first got its name. Okay, I read 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.880 somewhere that there's like biblical accounts of people like like 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:49.360 basically doing harm to themselves to get attention. Yeah, well, 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:50.920 I know, I don't want to say it makes sense, 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.400 but it makes sense that it goes back that long, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.080 because what better way if you're very lonely then to 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.240 get people to feel sorry for you, then to like 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.560 jump in a wheelchair all the sudden nurse a prehistoric 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.960 wheelchair exactly, or at least they um. Yeah, So he 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:06.720 named it in the Lancet, and he named it after, 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.960 of course, Baron von Mounkhausen, who was the eighteenth century 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:18.440 German military man who apparently went off to fight the Russians, 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:21.120 the Turks, the Turks and came back with all these 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.800 fanciful stories that people thought were largely probably made up 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:29.039 to get attention, right, And there's this Munchausen appreciation society 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.400 who like, actually like the guy and like the tales. Um. 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.000 And they've only they've been able to pin three tales 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:41.960 to the actual Baron Munchausen, but they um, there's you know, 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.520 whole books of what he supposedly these tales he's supposedly told, 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.840 and then Terry Gilliam got ahold of them. Well, yeah, 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.920 of course will be remiss without saying that former Monty 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.080 python Alam made that great movie. Did you see it? Yeah? 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:00.920 The Adventures? It seems good. I think it was Uma 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.680 Thurman's first role. If I'm not mistaken, was she in it? Yeah, 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.320 that's very neat, very young Uma from from the Adventures 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.560 of Baron Munchhaus into Super Mom my super ex girlfriend. Yeah, 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.080 what was the one where she's a mom? Though it 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.680 came out even more recently. I don't know she's She's 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.240 been in a bit of a talespen lately. We like 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:26.080 him with though uh Uma and Oprah classic bit, we 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:29.120 should probably get back to the serious timber. Yes. Um, 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.880 we should point out that it is not hypochondria, because 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:36.720 hypochondriacs actually believe that they're sick, and people with Monkhousen 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.400 disordered they know they're not sick. They're trying to pretend 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:43.240 that they're sick. Um. There's another, Um, I don't know 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.680 if you call it a disorder, there's another state of 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.760 mind that someone can be in called malingering, And that's 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.280 where you're pretending to be sick, either for financial gain 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.680 or to get out of work. Like um, maybe from 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.720 Arrested Development when she had the alter ego who was 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.320 wheelchair bound and like raised a bunch of kind Derbut 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.000 for yeah, I think everyone's lingered at one point or another. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.360 If it's to get out of work, right, I guess 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.000 even just sending an email like, yeah, that's lingering. Yeah. 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:11.840 In fact, the next time I do that, I'm gonna 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.360 just put in the subject line malingering and see if 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:16.880 anyone even notices what that means. That's way worse than 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.600 um or it sounds way worse than playing hookey. Yeah, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.520 you know, malingering. It sounds like you're defrauding somebody. So 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.880 why would someone do this? Well, um, there's a lot 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:33.160 of reasons. The underlying reason, the underlying UM part of 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:37.839 the disorder is that it's psychological. They believe right, it's 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.160 a part of a personality disorder. And there's a number 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.760 of risk factors that people who have munch House in 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.560 syndrome tend to exhibit, like, UM, they were they either 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:49.880 lost a parent while they were young or they were 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.679 abandoned by a parents. Another big one they may have 0:08:52.960 --> 0:08:58.280 UM had some sort of prolonged childhood illness is one. UM. 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.280 They some are want to be doctors and nurses. Yes 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.400 they can't. Maybe couldn't get a job in the medical 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.640 profession or never wanted to try hard enough because it's 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:11.920 kind of hard to do that. It's easier to just 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:14.719 you know, hurt yourself, take it before you make it, 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:22.319 and then you've got um sexual physical, emotional abuse. It's 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:24.839 this is this provides some sort of outlet. It's a 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.839 really I guess really the easiest way to understand it 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:33.480 is these people who need to be, who need attention, 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.320 who need to be taken care of, who just need 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.160 more than they're willing to ask for overtly have found 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.520 an easy street between where where they are and where 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.280 they need to be as far as attention goes. Well, 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.360 it's interesting you say that because they do point out 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.400 passive aggressive personality and people if you could just teach 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.560 them like, you know, if you need more support and love, 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.760 then you should be able to ask for that. But 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.360 this is like the ultimate and passive aggress I I think, 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.479 right exactly exactly. Um So when you're when you're addressing 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.920 Munchausen syndrome, you um would usually treat it like you 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.360 would depression or anxiety and just kind of approach it 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:16.600 from that round, and I imagine probably as well as 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.640 using cognitive behavioral therapy where it's like no, no, don't 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.520 don't do that anymore, don't eat that salt, snap the 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:28.240 rubber band on your wrist. Remind yourself wrist if you're lucky. Um, 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.679 what else are we talking about, chuck? Oh, some more 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.520 defining characteristics. Usually people who have munch House and syndrome 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.520 are young or middle aged, although there is a record 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:41.880 of a guy who is pretty much a munch House 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.280 in patient his whole life. He became famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:50.120 we're gonna get to him. Right. That was, And then 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:51.480 so what do they do? I mean, how do you 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.880 how do you feign illness? Well, this is where it 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:59.600 gets really interesting, because it goes anywhere from just lying. 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.480 But it's not just a lie. It's it's usually very specific, 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.559 like they say that any symptom that can't be like 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.679 proven medically is what they'll usually use. And they always 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.800 say it's very very specific, like textbook symptom that they 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.040 clearly read from a book. So they said, hey, if 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.320 I say that on this, this, and this, right, then 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:23.800 I can get this attention. But the problem is if 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.240 if you know, these doctors use these same physician desk references, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.400 so they go look up this, this, and this, and 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:33.080 they go, oh, well it's probably this, So I'm going 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.120 to treat it with nitroglycering. The problem is if you're 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.559 faking these three symptoms and the nitroglycerin doesn't have any effect, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.240 that you raised some red flags for your you know, 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.800 physician or nerve. That's a big problem with UM, with 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.800 UM Munchausen syndrome is that eventually people are going to 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.120 start to get suspicious, right, and you're lying too, So 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.359 it's not like you can just hide behind your conviction. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.319 You're hiding behind a lie, which I think is is 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.319 much more stressful. Well, and they'll go even further. I 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.120 mean that's just the basic lies told. People will also 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:12.760 physically inflict harm upon themselves, everything from uh, well this 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.240 is really harm on yourself, but like heating up your thermometer, right, 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.240 tampering with stuff like Henry and e t Yeah he 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.080 was he clearly had Munchausen. Well he's trying to get 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.400 out of school though, so he was really lingering to 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.640 stay with Yeah, but um, that is something that they 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:34.000 will do. Uh, injecting yourself with toxins tainting your urine samples, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.880 which you can use anything for that, I mean, even 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.320 like a little salt in your urine will change things. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.920 Blood if you put a little blood in your urine 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.040 or your stool. Taking medications you shouldn't be taking, yeah, 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.440 or just poisoning yourself in any in any way, shape 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.120 or form. But apparently injecting is is fairly common um. 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:57.080 And then you said also when you were talking about 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:02.520 feeding illness and choosing specific um symptoms, they may also 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.000 take a different route. And and she's very broad symptoms 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.480 like chest paint or um like nausea or something like 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:11.880 that could be anything. Yeah, that'll just tie a doctor 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.040 up for hours, if not days, which is what they 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.040 want is more and more attention. It's like, oh, you're 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.679 gonna have to come in tomorrow too. They're probably sweet, right. 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.439 And and one of the one of the reasons that 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:24.200 tying a doctor up is just great is because within 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.880 those hours, this doctor is going to get more and 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:30.000 more baffled and order more and more tests. And one 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.120 of the if the doctors paying attention here, she would 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.640 notice that the munchaus and patient is more than happy 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.360 to do this next test, like sure, stick that there, 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.400 or maybe even suggested like shouldn't you do this test 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.080 and stick that there? Those are two uh characteristics are 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.079 two um um symptoms of Munchausen syndrome is that you 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.360 are very willing, if not eager, to any and every 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.720 test that they want to do, whereas most people are 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.040 probably you know, like do you have to do that? 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.560 Is there another thing to do? Right? UM? And then 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:07.599 extensive knowledge about UM tests and procedures and symptoms and 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.040 the inner workings of a hospital. Those two things should 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.400 be big red flags if you are a physician and 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.800 you suspect, you know, you're having kind of troubled dealing 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:21.360 with somebody's symptoms, but not because you're dumb, because you're 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.560 trying everything well. Yeah, and inconsistency is one thing to 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.080 look for in your medical history. If they say, well, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.040 you're in here for high blood pressure, you were in 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.800 here last year for low blood pressure. So that's a 0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:36.920 little weird, Yeah, because I think I would imagine if 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.400 you're getting what you need, and especially if it's like 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:44.160 a standard kind of UM pathological behavior where it builds 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.880 up and up, like remember we talked about cleptomania, Like 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:49.080 the urge just builds up and builds up and until 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.880 it becomes irresistible, and afterwards it was just catharsis and 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.680 then the guilt or whatever I don't. I didn't see 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.360 it anywhere. But if Munchausen syndrome is like that, one 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.520 would imagine that you kind of lose touch with your 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.400 previous lies and you're not looking at it as a 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.920 big picture thing like this for the rest of my life. 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.800 It's very like, you know, let's let's do it now 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:12.840 and get this done and get this over with. And 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:14.960 maybe if they actually sat down and saw their medical 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:19.320 history sheet, they'd say, right, need to take this in 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.760 a different direction. I UM. I read an account of 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.720 a guy who um feigned bereavement. It was called factitious bereavement. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.360 And he showed up at the hospital UM and was 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.160 committed for like four weeks because he was um grieving 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.000 over the car accident death of his wife seven weeks 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.440 earlier and the heart attack death of his mother three 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.560 weeks earlier. And then he was interviewed. He was giving 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.360 a family history, and three of his fourteen siblings had 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.480 died young from things like throat cancer, some other accident, 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:53.520 another thing, UM. And they started asking this guy more 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.000 and more questions, and he wouldn't produce like a photo 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.280 of his wife, and he wouldn't let anybody talk to 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.560 his family and they started to get kind of suspicious. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.000 Finally contact and found out who his family was. Contacted 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.240 his mother, who was alive, His eleven siblings were all 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:10.800 doing well. He didn't have fourteen and three hadn't died, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.040 and he was never married. And when they confronted him 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.840 with this stuff, he just continued to lie and lie 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:21.480 and lie. So that there's a pathological bent pathological lying 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:30.000 aspect to Munchausen, which is called pseudological fantastica. I don't Yeah, well, 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.680 you brought up an important point, not letting family be involved. 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:34.560 That's a big tell too. If you say, you know, 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.160 you should probably bring your husband in and uh, oh no, no, no, 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.840 we don't need to involve him, right or or he's dead, 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:42.960 yeah exactly, Yeah, you don't want to talk to him. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:48.480 He's dead. It's not funny at all. So that's Munchausen syndrome. Um, 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:55.000 there's a high risk of suicide with Munchausen, probably accidental suicide. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.000 I mean people that go too far by accident or 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.080 they just coming to the end of the road. I 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.200 hadn't thought about that. Um, I heard come of the 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.359 end of the road. That's terrible. What I mean, like 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.960 that um thirty to seventy percent is what I saw. 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:11.120 But I don't know. Maybe it would be accidental suicide. Interesting, 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:12.920 I don't even know if there's such thing. But there's 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.040 also all sorts of other myriad problems that arise from 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.360 Munchausen syndrome, right, like UM real illness, Like if you're 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:24.159 a Munchausen suffer happily, you can eventually make yourself like 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.960 genuinely ill um from injecting toxic stuff. UM. I read 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:31.919 another account of a guy who was UM, who had 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:36.160 suffered a number of amputations, medical amputations. He was missing 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:42.440 like pieces of his fingers. He forced, like the doctors 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.000 to do it. He would cut himself. He kept a 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.440 little knife and a little bag of liquid feces on 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.040 him at all times because this thing was to cut 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.400 and then smear poop on the cut to make sure 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.639 it got infected. Let it faster, go seek medical attention. 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.440 And it was far too late, and have his blombs amputated, 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:05.800 have his extremities amputated. But apparently the cut and smear 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.600 is not He's not the only one doing that. The 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.240 cut and smear, that's what I've dubbed it. Save it 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:13.800 as a name, No I just made up. Okay, well 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.040 that's what I'd call it. Cutt and smear. Well, clearly 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.440 one of the biggest problems too, is not just the 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.560 harm you're doing yourself, but you're tying up doctor's time. 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.360 You're you're spending money, if not your money, maybe it's 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.600 Medicare or whatever insurance carrier you have. It's very wasteful 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.679 and it's taking up time doctors have to treat real 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.920 patients when you need to be treated by a mental 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:36.960 health professional is what you need. And a lot of 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.760 these guys too, when you're talking about tying up physicians time, 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:44.439 they'll go um at times when there's different staff, lesser 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.040 staffs to like weekend night holidays, that kind of thing. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.960 So when they tie up because there'll be different people 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.719 who haven't met them before and are familiar with them. Um. 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.840 So when they're tying up people's time, they're really tying 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.520 up their time. You know. No good. So that traditional 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.600 Munchausen which is bad, yeah, but it gets worse, Yeah, 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.120 Housen by proxy. Right. Twenty years after the guy Um, 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:13.720 Richard Asher Dr Richard Asher Um coined the term Munchausen syndrome. 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:21.840 Another guy named um Roy Meadows coined the term Munchausen 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:26.800 syndrome by proxy, and that one is not as recognized, 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:32.440 readily recognized as real as Munchausen syndrome. Yeah, did you 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:38.120 run into that recognizes What do you mean, Well, I've proven, yeah, 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.639 scientifically proven. It's I think the way that I'm seeing 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:45.679 it is it's viewed by some as more like remember 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:50.040 the Satanic worshiper hysteria of the eighties. It kind of 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.720 falls into line with that, although this is much more 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.119 established than that. Is like the a m A recognizes that, 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:02.680 the American Psychological Association recognized is it, but it's still 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.240 it's easily it's a lot more easily misconstrued than mun 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:13.160 childs and syndrome is because there's another person who's being harmed. Yeah, 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:15.960 and because they're usually children, right, Well, yeah, this is 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.639 the deal. It's usually children, but not always. It's basically, 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:23.120 you're a caregiver to somebody, um, and you are maybe 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:27.080 poisoning them, you maybe are smothering them so they develop 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:31.960 breathing problems. Uh, there's all sorts of awful abuse of 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.680 things that you can do to bring your child in 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.120 And that's when I mean you talk about getting sympathy 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.080 is when you run into a hospital with your baby 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:42.960 saying my baby is sick, my baby is sick, or 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.119 even worse than dead baby. Yeah, and that happens sadly 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.200 all the time. Well, the first two cases um that 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:54.960 that the guy Roy Meadows, Dr Roy Meadows um described 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.760 where one of them was a dead kid um, a 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.920 little fourteen the old Charles, whose mom had been feeding 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.959 him salt and kept bringing him back to the hospital 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:07.680 and doctors had no idea what was going on, and 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.120 eventually he died. The other moment was a little girl, right, Yeah, 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.359 her name was Kay and she was six and she 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:19.520 was admitted twelve times for a urinary tract infection, treated 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.119 with all kinds of antibiotics and none of them ever worked. 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:26.080 And that's obviously the doctors were like, something's going on here, 0:21:26.440 --> 0:21:29.800 or at least Roy Meadow was well. He he wrote 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.320 a study about both of these cases, called it Munchausen Byproxy, 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.960 and just basically like changed everything. I mean, he took 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:42.600 this fairly obscure disease um and turned it into this huge, 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:51.000 almost hysterical entity. Yeah. One of the problems is if 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:54.560 you are suspected of this, at least in the States, 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:57.119 and I think the UK is big on it too. 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.360 But if you're suspected of this, UM, all a physician 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.439 has to do is say, uh, you know called Family 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.000 and Children's Services or whatever you call it, county or state, 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:11.160 and say, I think I have a munch housing case. Here, 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:14.879 a social worker comes, takes your kid, and then you 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:16.760 go through the hoops to prove that you don't have 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.240 it right. The burden of proof is on the parent 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:23.600 who's been accused. This is a tricky one we got 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:26.880 we'll talk about this doctor. Well, we can talk about 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.679 them right now. Southall, Yeah. Dr David Southall in England, 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:36.040 very controversial guy who conducted some hidden video experiments surveillance 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:40.720 in the nineties and UH in hospitals. So what he 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:44.360 would do was he would videotape these parents inflicting harm 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.399 on their kids for cases that they suspected it was 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:49.920 Muckhausen And in the end you got thirty three of 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:55.240 these uh, thirty nine suspected abusers were prosecuted, twenty three 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:59.719 were diagnosed with f I I And you think, well 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.120 that's awesome, but it's also like your videotaping someone doing 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:05.960 harm to a kid. It was very, very controversial, and 0:23:06.040 --> 0:23:08.720 this guy has been removed and put back on the 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.760 uh the list the GMC General Medical Counsel which means 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.000 you can practice medicine in England. He's been on and 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:17.240 off of this thing for years and I think just 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:21.119 this year he was finally reinstated again. Right, they finally 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:23.360 said that we're not going to go after this guy anymore. 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.879 But t all about the big the documentary, Well, he 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:32.400 accused these um, these parents publicly of um killing their 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:36.160 two sons based on a TV documentary he saw them. Yeah, 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.000 well the woman was already convicted of killing the sons, 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:41.480 and then he was watching the documentary and said, you know, 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:45.359