1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,840
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff You Should Know

3
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:16,360
Speaker 1: from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, and welcome to

4
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,960
Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with me as always as

5
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,560
Speaker 1: Charles W. Chuck Bryant that makes this stuff you should

6
00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:28,680
Speaker 1: know the podcast. Like you didn't know, how's it going?

7
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,120
Speaker 1: It's going great. Your nails are still shiny. I got

8
00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 1: my first manicure last week and I went for the

9
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,760
Speaker 1: clear cooat and I didn't know. I didn't know this

10
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,680
Speaker 1: about Now that's an overcoat. I didn't know this about Chuck.

11
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,200
Speaker 1: But he um bites his nail, so he has very shiny,

12
00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,240
Speaker 1: well trimmed half nail stubs. Yeah, a little bleedy cuticles.

13
00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,920
Speaker 1: It's like you have some sort of like carratin deficiency

14
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,720
Speaker 1: or something. Let's go with that. But it's very shiny,

15
00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 1: like the carratin you do have is radioactive or I

16
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,319
Speaker 1: could fake, like I have a charrotin deficiency. Speaking of faking, Chuck,

17
00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,960
Speaker 1: that's just amazing that you said that word, because we're

18
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:13,399
Speaker 1: going to talk about a syndrome wherein people perfectly healthy people,

19
00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 1: at least you start out healthy, fake their own illness

20
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,800
Speaker 1: bear with me? Yeah. Have you seen the movie The

21
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:26,920
Speaker 1: Sixth Sense? Have you seen the television show The O C? No,

22
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,040
Speaker 1: you've never seen The C. I used to be hooked

23
00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,679
Speaker 1: on that really. Oh yeah, is that how you got

24
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 1: rid of TV? Yea, it was. I can't. It's ruining

25
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,800
Speaker 1: my life. Um. I can't remember the girl's name in

26
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,280
Speaker 1: The o C. But she plays the girl in the

27
00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 1: Sixth Sense who dies and who shows up to Haley

28
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,760
Speaker 1: Joel Osmond's character. Is it Misha Barton, like the lead girl? Yeah? Yeah, really,

29
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 1: she was the little girl in that. Yes, she was

30
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,200
Speaker 1: that she had to vomit, and remember she was like

31
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 1: hanging outside of his tent and just scaring the tar

32
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,440
Speaker 1: out of him. Well yeah, but she turned out to

33
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,560
Speaker 1: be okay. She's a little upset that her mom was

34
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 1: feeding her pines, all right, right, and she eventually dies.

35
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,040
Speaker 1: She had videotaped herself. I hope everyone's seen The Sixth Sense.

36
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,919
Speaker 1: If you haven't, I'm actually not really spoiling it. There's

37
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 1: a way I could spoil it way worse than this.

38
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,520
Speaker 1: But um, she videotapes her mother poisoning her soup with

39
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,120
Speaker 1: pine salt, and her mom is outed for having what's

40
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,239
Speaker 1: called Munchausen's biproxy and that's a derivative of what's called

41
00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,639
Speaker 1: Munchausen syndrome, right, Munchhausen. That's another way to put it. Yeah,

42
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,720
Speaker 1: they also call it a f II. Have you heard

43
00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:38,240
Speaker 1: that factitious? Clothes fabricated or induced illness? Where's the other

44
00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: F or f I? F I induced illness? Yeah, my

45
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,079
Speaker 1: brain didn't function. But yeah, you're gonna say facetious disorder,

46
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,799
Speaker 1: which is what it is, factitious factitious. I feel like

47
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: a dummy. No. I was like, yeah, that's pretty facetious.

48
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,880
Speaker 1: I remember when I came across the word facetious. I

49
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,160
Speaker 1: I used it in um my everyday vocabulary, or tried

50
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 1: to and um but I was reading it in books

51
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,720
Speaker 1: here there and never put the two together. So finally

52
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, what is that word? And I sounded it

53
00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,680
Speaker 1: out and fastidious, fastidious, facetious. I was like, oh that's facetious.

54
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, fastidious Is that what you were thinking?

55
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 1: It's like facet like the facet of a diamond. I

56
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 1: O U S. And this is fastidious. I've been reading

57
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: this wrong. Okay, this is factitious factitious. Dummy. We keep

58
00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:33,959
Speaker 1: this in Yeah, I think, so okay, all right, let's

59
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,800
Speaker 1: do this. Okay. So um, this is like munchaus In orders.

60
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: You say, munkh Housen syndrome is a really mysterious disorder. Um.

61
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,880
Speaker 1: People imagine it's extremely rare. Um, but we have no

62
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,280
Speaker 1: idea how prevalent it is because one of the hallmark

63
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 1: characteristics of Munkhausen Munchausen syndrome is that it is dishonesty. Yeah, right,

64
00:03:58,520 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 1: like you don't want to admit you have it. That's

65
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,119
Speaker 1: the who point, no, and and to define it's it's

66
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,960
Speaker 1: where somebody who is not ill either fakes an illness

67
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,000
Speaker 1: or makes themselves intentionally ill in order to be able

68
00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 1: to go seek medical care and or sympathy and empathy

69
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,720
Speaker 1: from friends, neighbors, relatives for you know, having an illness

70
00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 1: inflicted upon them. Yeah, it's like fight Club at Norton

71
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,480
Speaker 1: and Helena Bottom Carter visit support groups for illnesses to

72
00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,040
Speaker 1: get you know, get attention and feel a part of

73
00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,040
Speaker 1: a club. I guess, right exactly. And that's actually there's

74
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 1: a new thing called Monkhausen by internet. Yeah, that's a

75
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:39,840
Speaker 1: big one. And that's like a new deal where you

76
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,120
Speaker 1: go online to online support groups and fainn being sick

77
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,680
Speaker 1: just to feel like you're fitting in. I guess right,

78
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 1: And it is said, but as we'll figure out, UMM,

79
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 1: Munchausen by internet is actually kind of a um. It

80
00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 1: provides somewhat less harmful sucker to people who need that. Right,

81
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,720
Speaker 1: So you're still feeding this pathological illness. It's not ill,

82
00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,360
Speaker 1: but mentally it's just as dangerous. Physically, it's not because

83
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,880
Speaker 1: you're getting what you want, what you crave, what you need,

84
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,480
Speaker 1: which is that attention and that sympathy. But you're not

85
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,320
Speaker 1: having to like inject gasoline to get it, and you're

86
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,400
Speaker 1: not going to the doctors, and you're not running up

87
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:26,800
Speaker 1: insurance premiums that shouldn't be there and all that bad

88
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 1: stuff that happens with the real Monchhausen. Well, let's talk

89
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 1: about the history of this. Well, one I think was

90
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 1: when it was first described by Richard Asher in the Lancet, Right,

91
00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 1: that's when it first got its name. Okay, I read

92
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,880
Speaker 1: somewhere that there's like biblical accounts of people like like

93
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,360
Speaker 1: basically doing harm to themselves to get attention. Yeah, well,

94
00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:50,920
Speaker 1: I know, I don't want to say it makes sense,

95
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 1: but it makes sense that it goes back that long,

96
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 1: because what better way if you're very lonely then to

97
00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:58,240
Speaker 1: get people to feel sorry for you, then to like

98
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,560
Speaker 1: jump in a wheelchair all the sudden nurse a prehistoric

99
00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,960
Speaker 1: wheelchair exactly, or at least they um. Yeah, So he

100
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,720
Speaker 1: named it in the Lancet, and he named it after,

101
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 1: of course, Baron von Mounkhausen, who was the eighteenth century

102
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:18,440
Speaker 1: German military man who apparently went off to fight the Russians,

103
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,120
Speaker 1: the Turks, the Turks and came back with all these

104
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 1: fanciful stories that people thought were largely probably made up

105
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,039
Speaker 1: to get attention, right, And there's this Munchausen appreciation society

106
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,400
Speaker 1: who like, actually like the guy and like the tales. Um.

107
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,000
Speaker 1: And they've only they've been able to pin three tales

108
00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 1: to the actual Baron Munchausen, but they um, there's you know,

109
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:46,520
Speaker 1: whole books of what he supposedly these tales he's supposedly told,

110
00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,840
Speaker 1: and then Terry Gilliam got ahold of them. Well, yeah,

111
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,920
Speaker 1: of course will be remiss without saying that former Monty

112
00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 1: python Alam made that great movie. Did you see it? Yeah?

113
00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,920
Speaker 1: The Adventures? It seems good. I think it was Uma

114
00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 1: Thurman's first role. If I'm not mistaken, was she in it? Yeah,

115
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 1: that's very neat, very young Uma from from the Adventures

116
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,560
Speaker 1: of Baron Munchhaus into Super Mom my super ex girlfriend. Yeah,

117
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,080
Speaker 1: what was the one where she's a mom? Though it

118
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,680
Speaker 1: came out even more recently. I don't know she's She's

119
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,240
Speaker 1: been in a bit of a talespen lately. We like

120
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:26,080
Speaker 1: him with though uh Uma and Oprah classic bit, we

121
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,120
Speaker 1: should probably get back to the serious timber. Yes. Um,

122
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 1: we should point out that it is not hypochondria, because

123
00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 1: hypochondriacs actually believe that they're sick, and people with Monkhousen

124
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 1: disordered they know they're not sick. They're trying to pretend

125
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 1: that they're sick. Um. There's another, Um, I don't know

126
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,680
Speaker 1: if you call it a disorder, there's another state of

127
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,760
Speaker 1: mind that someone can be in called malingering, And that's

128
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 1: where you're pretending to be sick, either for financial gain

129
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,680
Speaker 1: or to get out of work. Like um, maybe from

130
00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,720
Speaker 1: Arrested Development when she had the alter ego who was

131
00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,320
Speaker 1: wheelchair bound and like raised a bunch of kind Derbut

132
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,000
Speaker 1: for yeah, I think everyone's lingered at one point or another.

133
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 1: If it's to get out of work, right, I guess

134
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,000
Speaker 1: even just sending an email like, yeah, that's lingering. Yeah.

135
00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 1: In fact, the next time I do that, I'm gonna

136
00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,360
Speaker 1: just put in the subject line malingering and see if

137
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,880
Speaker 1: anyone even notices what that means. That's way worse than

138
00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,600
Speaker 1: um or it sounds way worse than playing hookey. Yeah,

139
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, malingering. It sounds like you're defrauding somebody. So

140
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 1: why would someone do this? Well, um, there's a lot

141
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 1: of reasons. The underlying reason, the underlying UM part of

142
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,839
Speaker 1: the disorder is that it's psychological. They believe right, it's

143
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 1: a part of a personality disorder. And there's a number

144
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 1: of risk factors that people who have munch House in

145
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 1: syndrome tend to exhibit, like, UM, they were they either

146
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 1: lost a parent while they were young or they were

147
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,679
Speaker 1: abandoned by a parents. Another big one they may have

148
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:58,280
Speaker 1: UM had some sort of prolonged childhood illness is one. UM.

149
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 1: They some are want to be doctors and nurses. Yes

150
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 1: they can't. Maybe couldn't get a job in the medical

151
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,640
Speaker 1: profession or never wanted to try hard enough because it's

152
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,920
Speaker 1: kind of hard to do that. It's easier to just

153
00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,719
Speaker 1: you know, hurt yourself, take it before you make it,

154
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:22,319
Speaker 1: and then you've got um sexual physical, emotional abuse. It's

155
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,839
Speaker 1: this is this provides some sort of outlet. It's a

156
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,839
Speaker 1: really I guess really the easiest way to understand it

157
00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:33,480
Speaker 1: is these people who need to be, who need attention,

158
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,320
Speaker 1: who need to be taken care of, who just need

159
00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 1: more than they're willing to ask for overtly have found

160
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 1: an easy street between where where they are and where

161
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,280
Speaker 1: they need to be as far as attention goes. Well,

162
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 1: it's interesting you say that because they do point out

163
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,400
Speaker 1: passive aggressive personality and people if you could just teach

164
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 1: them like, you know, if you need more support and love,

165
00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,760
Speaker 1: then you should be able to ask for that. But

166
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: this is like the ultimate and passive aggress I I think,

167
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,479
Speaker 1: right exactly exactly. Um So when you're when you're addressing

168
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 1: Munchausen syndrome, you um would usually treat it like you

169
00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 1: would depression or anxiety and just kind of approach it

170
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,600
Speaker 1: from that round, and I imagine probably as well as

171
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,640
Speaker 1: using cognitive behavioral therapy where it's like no, no, don't

172
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 1: don't do that anymore, don't eat that salt, snap the

173
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 1: rubber band on your wrist. Remind yourself wrist if you're lucky. Um,

174
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,679
Speaker 1: what else are we talking about, chuck? Oh, some more

175
00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 1: defining characteristics. Usually people who have munch House and syndrome

176
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,520
Speaker 1: are young or middle aged, although there is a record

177
00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 1: of a guy who is pretty much a munch House

178
00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 1: in patient his whole life. He became famous. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

179
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna get to him. Right. That was, And then

180
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: so what do they do? I mean, how do you

181
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,880
Speaker 1: how do you feign illness? Well, this is where it

182
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,600
Speaker 1: gets really interesting, because it goes anywhere from just lying.

183
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,480
Speaker 1: But it's not just a lie. It's it's usually very specific,

184
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,559
Speaker 1: like they say that any symptom that can't be like

185
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,679
Speaker 1: proven medically is what they'll usually use. And they always

186
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 1: say it's very very specific, like textbook symptom that they

187
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,040
Speaker 1: clearly read from a book. So they said, hey, if

188
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 1: I say that on this, this, and this, right, then

189
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,800
Speaker 1: I can get this attention. But the problem is if

190
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 1: if you know, these doctors use these same physician desk references,

191
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,400
Speaker 1: so they go look up this, this, and this, and

192
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,080
Speaker 1: they go, oh, well it's probably this, So I'm going

193
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,120
Speaker 1: to treat it with nitroglycering. The problem is if you're

194
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,559
Speaker 1: faking these three symptoms and the nitroglycerin doesn't have any effect,

195
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 1: that you raised some red flags for your you know,

196
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,800
Speaker 1: physician or nerve. That's a big problem with UM, with

197
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: UM Munchausen syndrome is that eventually people are going to

198
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,120
Speaker 1: start to get suspicious, right, and you're lying too, So

199
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,359
Speaker 1: it's not like you can just hide behind your conviction.

200
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,319
Speaker 1: You're hiding behind a lie, which I think is is

201
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,319
Speaker 1: much more stressful. Well, and they'll go even further. I

202
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,120
Speaker 1: mean that's just the basic lies told. People will also

203
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 1: physically inflict harm upon themselves, everything from uh, well this

204
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 1: is really harm on yourself, but like heating up your thermometer, right,

205
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,240
Speaker 1: tampering with stuff like Henry and e t Yeah he

206
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,080
Speaker 1: was he clearly had Munchausen. Well he's trying to get

207
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,400
Speaker 1: out of school though, so he was really lingering to

208
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,640
Speaker 1: stay with Yeah, but um, that is something that they

209
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 1: will do. Uh, injecting yourself with toxins tainting your urine samples,

210
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 1: which you can use anything for that, I mean, even

211
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,320
Speaker 1: like a little salt in your urine will change things.

212
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 1: Blood if you put a little blood in your urine

213
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,040
Speaker 1: or your stool. Taking medications you shouldn't be taking, yeah,

214
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,440
Speaker 1: or just poisoning yourself in any in any way, shape

215
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 1: or form. But apparently injecting is is fairly common um.

216
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,080
Speaker 1: And then you said also when you were talking about

217
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:02,520
Speaker 1: feeding illness and choosing specific um symptoms, they may also

218
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,000
Speaker 1: take a different route. And and she's very broad symptoms

219
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 1: like chest paint or um like nausea or something like

220
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,880
Speaker 1: that could be anything. Yeah, that'll just tie a doctor

221
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 1: up for hours, if not days, which is what they

222
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,040
Speaker 1: want is more and more attention. It's like, oh, you're

223
00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,679
Speaker 1: gonna have to come in tomorrow too. They're probably sweet, right.

224
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,439
Speaker 1: And and one of the one of the reasons that

225
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,200
Speaker 1: tying a doctor up is just great is because within

226
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,880
Speaker 1: those hours, this doctor is going to get more and

227
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 1: more baffled and order more and more tests. And one

228
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,120
Speaker 1: of the if the doctors paying attention here, she would

229
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 1: notice that the munchaus and patient is more than happy

230
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 1: to do this next test, like sure, stick that there,

231
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,400
Speaker 1: or maybe even suggested like shouldn't you do this test

232
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 1: and stick that there? Those are two uh characteristics are

233
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,079
Speaker 1: two um um symptoms of Munchausen syndrome is that you

234
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 1: are very willing, if not eager, to any and every

235
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,720
Speaker 1: test that they want to do, whereas most people are

236
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,040
Speaker 1: probably you know, like do you have to do that?

237
00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 1: Is there another thing to do? Right? UM? And then

238
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:07,599
Speaker 1: extensive knowledge about UM tests and procedures and symptoms and

239
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,040
Speaker 1: the inner workings of a hospital. Those two things should

240
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,400
Speaker 1: be big red flags if you are a physician and

241
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,800
Speaker 1: you suspect, you know, you're having kind of troubled dealing

242
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 1: with somebody's symptoms, but not because you're dumb, because you're

243
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 1: trying everything well. Yeah, and inconsistency is one thing to

244
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,080
Speaker 1: look for in your medical history. If they say, well,

245
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,040
Speaker 1: you're in here for high blood pressure, you were in

246
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 1: here last year for low blood pressure. So that's a

247
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,920
Speaker 1: little weird, Yeah, because I think I would imagine if

248
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,400
Speaker 1: you're getting what you need, and especially if it's like

249
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 1: a standard kind of UM pathological behavior where it builds

250
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 1: up and up, like remember we talked about cleptomania, Like

251
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 1: the urge just builds up and builds up and until

252
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,880
Speaker 1: it becomes irresistible, and afterwards it was just catharsis and

253
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 1: then the guilt or whatever I don't. I didn't see

254
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,360
Speaker 1: it anywhere. But if Munchausen syndrome is like that, one

255
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,520
Speaker 1: would imagine that you kind of lose touch with your

256
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,400
Speaker 1: previous lies and you're not looking at it as a

257
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,920
Speaker 1: big picture thing like this for the rest of my life.

258
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 1: It's very like, you know, let's let's do it now

259
00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 1: and get this done and get this over with. And

260
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,960
Speaker 1: maybe if they actually sat down and saw their medical

261
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 1: history sheet, they'd say, right, need to take this in

262
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 1: a different direction. I UM. I read an account of

263
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,720
Speaker 1: a guy who um feigned bereavement. It was called factitious bereavement.

264
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,360
Speaker 1: And he showed up at the hospital UM and was

265
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,160
Speaker 1: committed for like four weeks because he was um grieving

266
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 1: over the car accident death of his wife seven weeks

267
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,440
Speaker 1: earlier and the heart attack death of his mother three

268
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 1: weeks earlier. And then he was interviewed. He was giving

269
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,360
Speaker 1: a family history, and three of his fourteen siblings had

270
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,480
Speaker 1: died young from things like throat cancer, some other accident,

271
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,520
Speaker 1: another thing, UM. And they started asking this guy more

272
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,000
Speaker 1: and more questions, and he wouldn't produce like a photo

273
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,280
Speaker 1: of his wife, and he wouldn't let anybody talk to

274
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 1: his family and they started to get kind of suspicious.

275
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 1: Finally contact and found out who his family was. Contacted

276
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,240
Speaker 1: his mother, who was alive, His eleven siblings were all

277
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 1: doing well. He didn't have fourteen and three hadn't died,

278
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,040
Speaker 1: and he was never married. And when they confronted him

279
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,840
Speaker 1: with this stuff, he just continued to lie and lie

280
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 1: and lie. So that there's a pathological bent pathological lying

281
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 1: aspect to Munchausen, which is called pseudological fantastica. I don't Yeah, well,

282
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: you brought up an important point, not letting family be involved.

283
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,560
Speaker 1: That's a big tell too. If you say, you know,

284
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,160
Speaker 1: you should probably bring your husband in and uh, oh no, no, no,

285
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: we don't need to involve him, right or or he's dead,

286
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 1: yeah exactly, Yeah, you don't want to talk to him.

287
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 1: He's dead. It's not funny at all. So that's Munchausen syndrome. Um,

288
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:55,000
Speaker 1: there's a high risk of suicide with Munchausen, probably accidental suicide.

289
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 1: I mean people that go too far by accident or

290
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,080
Speaker 1: they just coming to the end of the road. I

291
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 1: hadn't thought about that. Um, I heard come of the

292
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,359
Speaker 1: end of the road. That's terrible. What I mean, like

293
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,960
Speaker 1: that um thirty to seventy percent is what I saw.

294
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 1: But I don't know. Maybe it would be accidental suicide. Interesting,

295
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 1: I don't even know if there's such thing. But there's

296
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,040
Speaker 1: also all sorts of other myriad problems that arise from

297
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,360
Speaker 1: Munchausen syndrome, right, like UM real illness, Like if you're

298
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,159
Speaker 1: a Munchausen suffer happily, you can eventually make yourself like

299
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 1: genuinely ill um from injecting toxic stuff. UM. I read

300
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,919
Speaker 1: another account of a guy who was UM, who had

301
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,160
Speaker 1: suffered a number of amputations, medical amputations. He was missing

302
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 1: like pieces of his fingers. He forced, like the doctors

303
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,000
Speaker 1: to do it. He would cut himself. He kept a

304
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,440
Speaker 1: little knife and a little bag of liquid feces on

305
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 1: him at all times because this thing was to cut

306
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,400
Speaker 1: and then smear poop on the cut to make sure

307
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,639
Speaker 1: it got infected. Let it faster, go seek medical attention.

308
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,440
Speaker 1: And it was far too late, and have his blombs amputated,

309
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,800
Speaker 1: have his extremities amputated. But apparently the cut and smear

310
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,600
Speaker 1: is not He's not the only one doing that. The

311
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 1: cut and smear, that's what I've dubbed it. Save it

312
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: as a name, No I just made up. Okay, well

313
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 1: that's what I'd call it. Cutt and smear. Well, clearly

314
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,440
Speaker 1: one of the biggest problems too, is not just the

315
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 1: harm you're doing yourself, but you're tying up doctor's time.

316
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,360
Speaker 1: You're you're spending money, if not your money, maybe it's

317
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,600
Speaker 1: Medicare or whatever insurance carrier you have. It's very wasteful

318
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,679
Speaker 1: and it's taking up time doctors have to treat real

319
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,920
Speaker 1: patients when you need to be treated by a mental

320
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,960
Speaker 1: health professional is what you need. And a lot of

321
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 1: these guys too, when you're talking about tying up physicians time,

322
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,439
Speaker 1: they'll go um at times when there's different staff, lesser

323
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 1: staffs to like weekend night holidays, that kind of thing.

324
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,960
Speaker 1: So when they tie up because there'll be different people

325
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,719
Speaker 1: who haven't met them before and are familiar with them. Um.

326
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 1: So when they're tying up people's time, they're really tying

327
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 1: up their time. You know. No good. So that traditional

328
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: Munchausen which is bad, yeah, but it gets worse, Yeah,

329
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,120
Speaker 1: Housen by proxy. Right. Twenty years after the guy Um,

330
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:13,720
Speaker 1: Richard Asher Dr Richard Asher Um coined the term Munchausen syndrome.

331
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 1: Another guy named um Roy Meadows coined the term Munchausen

332
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 1: syndrome by proxy, and that one is not as recognized,

333
00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:32,440
Speaker 1: readily recognized as real as Munchausen syndrome. Yeah, did you

334
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 1: run into that recognizes What do you mean, Well, I've proven, yeah,

335
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,639
Speaker 1: scientifically proven. It's I think the way that I'm seeing

336
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,679
Speaker 1: it is it's viewed by some as more like remember

337
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 1: the Satanic worshiper hysteria of the eighties. It kind of

338
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 1: falls into line with that, although this is much more

339
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,119
Speaker 1: established than that. Is like the a m A recognizes that,

340
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:02,680
Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association recognized is it, but it's still

341
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 1: it's easily it's a lot more easily misconstrued than mun

342
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:13,160
Speaker 1: childs and syndrome is because there's another person who's being harmed. Yeah,

343
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: and because they're usually children, right, Well, yeah, this is

344
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,639
Speaker 1: the deal. It's usually children, but not always. It's basically,

345
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 1: you're a caregiver to somebody, um, and you are maybe

346
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 1: poisoning them, you maybe are smothering them so they develop

347
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 1: breathing problems. Uh, there's all sorts of awful abuse of

348
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 1: things that you can do to bring your child in

349
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 1: And that's when I mean you talk about getting sympathy

350
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: is when you run into a hospital with your baby

351
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 1: saying my baby is sick, my baby is sick, or

352
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 1: even worse than dead baby. Yeah, and that happens sadly

353
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 1: all the time. Well, the first two cases um that

354
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 1: that the guy Roy Meadows, Dr Roy Meadows um described

355
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 1: where one of them was a dead kid um, a

356
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 1: little fourteen the old Charles, whose mom had been feeding

357
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,959
Speaker 1: him salt and kept bringing him back to the hospital

358
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,680
Speaker 1: and doctors had no idea what was going on, and

359
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 1: eventually he died. The other moment was a little girl, right, Yeah,

360
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,359
Speaker 1: her name was Kay and she was six and she

361
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: was admitted twelve times for a urinary tract infection, treated

362
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,119
Speaker 1: with all kinds of antibiotics and none of them ever worked.

363
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: And that's obviously the doctors were like, something's going on here,

364
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: or at least Roy Meadow was well. He he wrote

365
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 1: a study about both of these cases, called it Munchausen Byproxy,

366
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 1: and just basically like changed everything. I mean, he took

367
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 1: this fairly obscure disease um and turned it into this huge,

368
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: almost hysterical entity. Yeah. One of the problems is if

369
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: you are suspected of this, at least in the States,

370
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 1: and I think the UK is big on it too.

371
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 1: But if you're suspected of this, UM, all a physician

372
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,439
Speaker 1: has to do is say, uh, you know called Family

373
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: and Children's Services or whatever you call it, county or state,

374
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 1: and say, I think I have a munch housing case. Here,

375
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,879
Speaker 1: a social worker comes, takes your kid, and then you

376
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: go through the hoops to prove that you don't have

377
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: it right. The burden of proof is on the parent

378
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: who's been accused. This is a tricky one we got

379
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 1: we'll talk about this doctor. Well, we can talk about

380
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,679
Speaker 1: them right now. Southall, Yeah. Dr David Southall in England,

381
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: very controversial guy who conducted some hidden video experiments surveillance

382
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: in the nineties and UH in hospitals. So what he

383
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 1: would do was he would videotape these parents inflicting harm

384
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 1: on their kids for cases that they suspected it was

385
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: Muckhausen And in the end you got thirty three of

386
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: these uh, thirty nine suspected abusers were prosecuted, twenty three

387
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 1: were diagnosed with f I I And you think, well

388
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 1: that's awesome, but it's also like your videotaping someone doing

389
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: harm to a kid. It was very, very controversial, and

390
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: this guy has been removed and put back on the

391
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: uh the list the GMC General Medical Counsel which means

392
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: you can practice medicine in England. He's been on and

393
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: off of this thing for years and I think just

394
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: this year he was finally reinstated again. Right, they finally

395
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: said that we're not going to go after this guy anymore.

396
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: But t all about the big the documentary, Well, he

397
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 1: accused these um, these parents publicly of um killing their

398
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: two sons based on a TV documentary he saw them. Yeah,

399
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: well the woman was already convicted of killing the sons,

400
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: and then he was watching the documentary and said, you know,

401
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: I think the husband, Stephen was the guy. And then

402
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: that was that, like a huge inquisition was launched and

403
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: like this guy's life was turned up on, you know,

404
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 1: upside down um And there are a lot of accusations

405
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 1: like that. I get the feeling from this guy that

406
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: he was one of those uh if you look for it,

407
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: you're going to find it kind of guys. Think about

408
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: the prevalence in one hospital that he was able to

409
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: document thirty three uh thirty nine total that he was

410
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 1: spying on thirty three prosecutor he was able to document

411
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: thirty three cases of Munchausen biproxy. I mean, like that

412
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: means the prevalence is, like probably more than half of

413
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: the global population suffers from Munchausen by proxy in that case, Like,

414
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 1: if that's the case, you know what I mean? Well,

415
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: I thought these were special cases he was surveilling. No,

416
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think it was just random. Okay,

417
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: well that would definitely change the ratio. But still and

418
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: thanks for that, But still even though what I meant

419
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: by that, So if there are there are people also

420
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: out there, um who questioned if Munchausen biproxy does exist, Yeah, apparently. Um.

421
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot of accusations that fly at parents of

422
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: autistic kids. There's an sub term that's been coined called

423
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: Asperger's by by proxy. Yeah. Um, And there's a lot

424
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: of autistic parents who are like, oh, yeah, yeah, is

425
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: that what you think, not saying my kid is sick,

426
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: like ill with physically ill, but my child has Asperger's yeah,

427
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: And the physicians are like, no, your kid doesn't. It's you.

428
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: You're doing this too, and you're developmentally delaying your kid

429
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: for attention or whatever. Again, if it does exist, it

430
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: you know clearly the kid needs protection from the parents.

431
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: This is the parent almost every time is doing it.

432
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: I think percent of the time it's the mom. But

433
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: you're also running the risk of taking a kid away

434
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 1: from you know, perfectly normal parents. Right. Um, And apparently

435
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: the other big bonu contention is the people who make

436
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: this diagnosis almost every time is a pediatrician, not a

437
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: psychiatrist or psychologists. All a pediatrician has to do is

438
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,239
Speaker 1: pick up the phone and say, I think I got

439
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: a munch house in case here, get over here, get

440
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: this kid. Yeah, well it's important you said. It's a

441
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: nine apercent at the time as by the mother. And

442
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: that's that's what is going on most times, that the

443
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: the cases are all sort of the same, and that

444
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: there's a woman who's the generally responsible for the stay

445
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: at home parenting. Maybe the husband is not very involved

446
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: in giving them enough attention. In one way to stop

447
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: that and its tracts is to make your baby sick.

448
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: That's what happened with this one. Lady may Mary Beth Tinning.

449
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: Between seventy two and eighty five, all nine of her

450
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: children died and she was very distraught and got lots

451
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: and lots of sympathy. Was arrested in eighty six and

452
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: it turns out that she had smothered her children with

453
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: a pillow. And then they asked a husband and he said, quote,

454
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: you have to trust your wife. She has her things

455
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 1: to do, and as long as she gets them done,

456
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: you don't ask questions. So that's kind of the typical

457
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: case of this uninvolved husband. Clearly uninvolved husband, that's beyond

458
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: un involved, that's like, yeah after athetic, yeah, exactly almost,

459
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: And that's allegedly apathetic. And she was convicted, um for

460
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: real in eighty seven and sentenced to twenty years. And

461
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: that's one of the saddest cases I've ever heard. There's

462
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: another one, UM Nita Hoyt. You know, SID Sudden infant

463
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: death syndrome still is a medical mystery, UM, but there

464
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: was a time when they thought that it ran in families,

465
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: and they were hot on the trail of explaining SIDS

466
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: as like a genetic uh disorder UH. And it was

467
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: based on a woman named Juanita Hoyt who UM had

468
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: six children died between nineteen six five and nineteen seventy one,

469
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: and her primary physician wrote a study that kind of

470
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: made a name for himself as a career UM as

471
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: an expert on SIDS based on this woman's experience and

472
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: UM in the nineties a I guess a local prosecutor

473
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: heard about this story and was suspicious and started digging around.

474
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: And it turned out that this lay he had killed

475
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 1: her kids, all six of them, but not only had

476
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: killed their kids, had also derailed the investigation of SIDS.

477
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: Also raised a lot of questions of what what does

478
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: account for SIDS? Is there such thing as SIDS? Is

479
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: it all cases of mothers killing their children? Um, there's

480
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions about what percentage of mysterious

481
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: infant deaths are related to you know, foul play. Well,

482
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: and that that's just a prime example of all the

483
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: ramifications that Monkhausen has not just on your child, but

484
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: like diverting the path of medical research. Yeah, and and

485
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: not only that the chuck again we keep coming back to.

486
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: You know, imagine being a parent who lost your kid.

487
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: You have no idea, how right, um, and now other

488
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: people are accusing you of killing your kids. Okay, so chuck.

489
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: If the the the idea that Munchausen biproxy. Uh does exist,

490
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: as I said, is endorsed by the A M A

491
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: and the A P A. What are some of the

492
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: um what are some of the symptoms of it by proxy? Yeah.

493
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: One of the things is that the symptoms don't match

494
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: the test results. One thing is sometimes a caregiver is

495
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: actually a nurse or works in the healthcare industry. Uh,

496
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: they could be siblings. The child might have died under

497
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: weird circumstances. Um. It's kind of the same as the

498
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: adult things. There's a mysterious, unexplained symptoms that aren't going away.

499
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: Uh not Matt, you know, bizarre medical history. All these

500
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: things are red flags. And there's also um it's prevalent

501
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: in healthcare workers. Remember with Munchausen syndrome, you wanted to

502
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: be a healthcare worker. In Munchausen by proxy, you may

503
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: be a healthcare worker. Oh you did? Yeah, Okay, well

504
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: you so you know, like the angels of death, like

505
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: the that's a type of Munchausen by proxy. Yeah, oh yeah,

506
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 1: I guess so. Yeah, people who like kill the elderly.

507
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: There's a doctor. I think that the United Kingdom's most

508
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: prolific serial killer was a physician who just like dispatched

509
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: his patients. He was like treating them but really killing him.

510
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: And he killed a lot of people. Well, speaking of

511
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: a lot of things, we can't close without talking about

512
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: William You pronounced that, Michael Hoy. Yeah, he is in

513
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: the Guinness Book of World Records actually because he um

514
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: had four operations and a hundred different hospitals to the

515
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: tune of four million dollars. But because it's Britain, it's

516
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: all subsidized healthcare. So that's a lot of dough going

517
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: to this one guy. And he didn't have any of

518
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: these things. He was a monk howser. Can I say that?

519
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: I think you can't. It's not funny because he eventually died.

520
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: Well actually he just died in a retirement home, so

521
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 1: it doesn't really say that he might have died for

522
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: many of his treatments. Yeah, I wonder though. Was he

523
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: a munkhouser cutting smearations? He was cutting and smear and something. Um,

524
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: I've got one for you. Sure. So remember we talked

525
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: about one Munchausen by internet, so there was like this,

526
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: The first description came in the nineties. Obviously, you can't

527
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: have Munchausen by Internet before the internet was around, you'd

528
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: be very far ahead of your time, but very very quickly.

529
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: Right off the bat, there was a huge what was

530
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: first termed by The New York Times as a hoax. UM.

531
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: There was a little nineteen year old, spunky, very positive

532
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: nineteen year old named Casey Swinson who lived in Kansas,

533
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: and she kept what UM the New York Times referred

534
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: to in two thousand one as a weblog right of

535
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: her um battle with leukemia, which she lost in May

536
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: two thousand one. And she had this huge following of

537
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: people who really genuinely cared and were supportive of her,

538
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: and we're pulling forward and let her know. UM. And

539
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: then in May two thousand one, there they went to

540
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: the weblog and found news that Casey had died, and UM,

541
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: I don't know who exactly got suspicious, but people started

542
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: looking at Casey's mother, who actually turned out to be Casey.

543
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: There was no Casey ever. This woman just created this

544
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: whole fictitious character too that had leukemia and who died

545
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: and received like cards and presents and flowers and condolences

546
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: for a kid that never existed. You know, if I

547
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: was going to fake something on the internet, I would

548
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: fake that I'm awesome, like I would make it. What

549
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: do you think we're doing right now? Well, exactly, I

550
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: would be like the Walter Minnie style. I would just

551
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: make up these awesome stories about myself. But I mean,

552
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: this is a real mental disorder, it's not I'm not

553
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: making that. You guys should just choose to be awesome

554
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: instead of sick. Yeah, no, no, I'm not saying no,

555
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that. I sincerely hope no one took

556
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: you like that. May you'd be surprised with these emails.

557
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: And then lastly, there I ran across the case of

558
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: a double munch housing case Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy

559
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: and the same mother daughter duo. The mother used to

560
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: inject her daughter with her daughter's knowledge with bacteria and

561
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: had been doing it for so long. The daughter had

562
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: both kidneys removed and was on full dialysis, so she

563
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: was in on it too. Basically, yeah, she the mother

564
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: had Munchausen by proxy and she just had and the

565
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: daughter was both a Munchausen by proxy victim and Munchausen. Yes,

566
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: all right, Well before you send an emails about the

567
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: X files and e er and eminem, sorry, mama, Yeah,

568
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: all three of them. Here do your Eminem. I'm sorry, Mama.

569
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: Eminem had a lyric that said, uh, going through public

570
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: housing systems, victim of Munchausen syndrome. My whole life, I

571
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: was made to believe I was sick when I wasn't.

572
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: And it was on the X Files they investigated Munkhausen

573
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: by proxy. Yeah, I don't remember that one, do you.

574
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: I don't remember that either. I was always into the

575
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: like the real plot line arc of the whole series

576
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: was okay, with a smoking man and all that and

577
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: the you know, molder sister. I liked how they mixed

578
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: it up, though, but I liked the just stand alone

579
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: like there's a shape shifter in the forest right or

580
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: um uh pontsa Dai Lyon's men are still living in

581
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: Florida because they discovered the fountain because they turn in

582
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: a little invisible weirdos. I didn't watch that show at

583
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: the time, but the stand alone ones were like Scooby

584
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: Doos hint hint. But I didn't watch that show when

585
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: it was on for real at all, And then when

586
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: it went into reruns Monday through Friday, I watched it

587
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: the whole series. Yeah, yeah, those those two. Those movies

588
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: were pretty good too. What's it for um? This episode

589
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: on the X files? If you want to learn more

590
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: about it, type x files where we was it? X files? Munchausen. Yeah,

591
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: type Munchausen. You want to spell it for him? Yeah,

592
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: it's m U n c h A U s U

593
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: s e N. You want to do it again? M

594
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: U n c h a U s E N. And

595
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: I would. I would. I should have done a bell

596
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: at the first one. Mm hm oh because I missed it.

597
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: You can type that into the search bar at how

598
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com to learn more about this mysterious

599
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: and extremely fascinating disease UM. And until then, let's do

600
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: some listener math. Josh, this is a maybe a weird

601
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: listener mail to put at the end of this one.

602
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: What are we doing it on this one? This is

603
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: a very very special listener mail and everyone should listen

604
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: to this one because it's pretty pretty cool. Dude, are

605
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: we gonna put a drum roll in it? All? I

606
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: think we should at some point. Doug lives in North Idaho.

607
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: Doug and I were riding back and forth last week

608
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: about fishing, trout fishing. Okay, I don't remember how it

609
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 1: started it, but it started. And I fish for trout

610
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 1: here and there in North George. It's sort of fun.

611
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: I'm not like the hugest fisherman. And Doug is an

612
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: avid I think fly fisherman. So we're just gonna chit chatting.

613
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 1: And he said that he and his girlfriend Kena, she's

614
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: now gotten him or he got her hooked on the show.

615
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 1: And he said, I know you'll never read this, and

616
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: Keena's just making fun of me right now. And I said,

617
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: you tell Kena to shut it. That's not very nice.

618
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: And he wrote back and said she's laughing that we're emailing,

619
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: and he said, shut it. And this is the best

620
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: thing ever. And he said, but guys, her birthday is

621
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: February two, and uh, I got a plan that I

622
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: want to hatch. So right now as you people are listening,

623
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: I don't know about right this second, but over the

624
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: next day on February two, at some point, Doug is

625
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: in his car. He's he's with Kena right now, and

626
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: she's probably going, what's going on here? This is weird.

627
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: She's laughing nervously, she's laughing, her maybe trying the door

628
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: handle to see if it's off, but Doug is actually

629
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: the one who is nervous because Doug has something very

630
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: important to say, and that is Keina. He would like

631
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: you to be his wife. He's asking you to marry him.

632
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: Right now. We've sort of are, but we're not marrying you.

633
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: It's actually Doug and this is the this is the

634
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: first for us, is a marriage proposal right here on

635
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: the show, somewhere in Idaho. Kina should hopefully have a

636
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 1: ring on her finger at this point. Don't you think?

637
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: What do we do with the answer is no? I

638
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: guess we'll hear from Doug. We won't break it to people, though.

639
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: I think we should go ahead on the premise that

640
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 1: she says yes, all right, So I mean, what else

641
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: can we say? I can't believe we just said that. Yeah,

642
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: Doug the trout Fisherman is marrying Keina and congratulations masseltof again. Right, Yeah,

643
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: It's where do we go from here? I don't know.

644
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: It's like we should probably just like fade out with

645
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: us wondering. I guess, so send us an email? Right yeah?

646
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: Stuff podcast how Stuff works dot com holy Cow for

647
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: moral this and thousands of other topics. Is it how

648
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. To learn more about the podcast,

649
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner

650
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: of our homepage. The How Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived.

651
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 1: Download it today on iTunes. Brought to you by the

652
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 1: reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you