1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You know, there are 2 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: a lot of terms that people use for tiny rural towns. 3 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: I've heard them all at this point in my life. 4 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: One that comes to mind is a fleece back of 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: a town that means tiny, out of the way, forgotten. 6 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: But you know, for the people that live in these 7 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: tiny little towns, it's home and there's a sense of security. 8 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: Many times, that's what kind of separates Oscilla, Georgia from 9 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: many other locations. Folks felt secure, they felt safe. That 10 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: is until two thousand five, Tera grinst It vanished off 11 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: to face the planet. Today we're gonna talk about the 12 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: disappearance and the destruction of the remains of Tera Grinstead. 13 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. My 14 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: good buddy Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories. When 15 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is here with me, Jackie, what can you 16 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: tell us about Tera Grinstead. This is a case that 17 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: captivated America because this beloved teacher and former beauty queen 18 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: truly seemed to disappear off of the face of the earth. 19 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: Tera Grin's dad was a teacher. She taught history and 20 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: as I said she was a former beauty queen. She 21 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: was just thirty years old when she went missing after 22 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: an evening with friends and co workers. She had been 23 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: earlier in a day working with pageant participants, and then 24 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: she attended a bonfire a cookout with fellow teachers. Witnesses 25 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: at the cookout said Tara left early and went home. 26 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: Tara had plans the next day. When the next day 27 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: rolled around, no tera, her mother and best friend thought 28 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: something came up. They weren't really worried about it at 29 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: that time because this was before cell phone use that 30 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: we see today. On Monday, when Tara did not show 31 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: up for work, a missing person report was made by 32 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: her neighbors and her coworkers. Police are called in and 33 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: that's where our timeline and investigations start, Joe. When police 34 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: go into the house, they don't find a body, and 35 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: the investigation begins. Let's talk about the beginnings of an investigation. 36 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: What did the police do when they got there to 37 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: determine what happened to Well, you know, it's it's almost 38 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: wrote now, you know, in the genre of true crime 39 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: where you hear what we talked about. When investigators show 40 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: up at seeing Jack, they'll they'll say, there's no signs 41 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: of forced entry struggle, and and that is true, you know, 42 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that you look for. And 43 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: and plus you know, let's go back a little bit 44 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: and think about when Tara did disappear, because this this 45 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: case from the beginning was treated as a disappearance. It 46 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: was not treated necessarily as um as some kind of 47 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: horrific event like a homicide had taken place. So what 48 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: they're trying to determine, the big question before them at 49 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: that moment time is you know, where is this woman? 50 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: And reflectively you think about you think about what her 51 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: friends are saying. You know, her her skin folks, and 52 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: they're talking about this is completely out of the norm 53 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: for her. Um that it's not it's not standard practice 54 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: for her. You know, when she didn't show it for 55 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: work on that Monday, that that was a big red 56 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: flag for the folks at work with it, because you know, 57 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: she's not gonna just disappear. You know, maybe she would 58 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: call off sick if she were in fact sick, but 59 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: it's not like her not to show up for work. 60 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: She's a public school teacher. You know, he's going to 61 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: cover the class. There's a lot that goes into that. 62 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: You know, so people were really concerned about her whereabouts, 63 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: but you know, you don't I think that's it's even 64 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: within human nature. The first thing that your mind goes 65 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: to is generally not has she been murdered? It's where 66 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: is she? And it didn't fit with what they were 67 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: seeing at the scene because there was really no sign 68 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: of forced entry in the house. I think adjacent to 69 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: her bed, there's a bedside and lamp that's slightly askew. Uh, 70 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: you've got a candle that's overturned. The phone, which is uh, 71 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: a cordless phone was found on the floor. But you 72 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: it's not like you go through and you've got broken 73 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: furniture everywhere, and there's a sign of struggle, and also 74 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: there's there's a sign of people rifling or a person 75 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: having rifle through all of her personal belongings. And you know, 76 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: the biggest thing is there's nothing missing at that point 77 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: in time, valuables and that sort of thing. It was 78 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: even noted that there were still costume jewelry laying about 79 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: that someone would use in a in a pageant performance, 80 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: So nothing had been taken from the residents at this 81 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: point in time. You know, terror just appears to you know, 82 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: kind of vaporized, uh, into thin air, and no one 83 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: knew what exactly had happened to her. So, Joe, as 84 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: this missing person case got underway, as you were saying, 85 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: nothing was really missing from the home. It did not 86 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: appear to be a robbery. So at that point it 87 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: makes you consider the fact that Arra has been taken. 88 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: Her car is still in her driveway, it's a little 89 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: muddy on the outside, her house was locked when the 90 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: police got there, and the only items that appear to 91 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: be missing are her purse and her keys. Yet again, 92 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: her car was still in the driveway. Police did find, however, 93 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: that the seat had been moved. What does that tell us, Well, 94 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, if you if you look at a vehicle. Listen, 95 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: we all understand everybody can identify with getting into your 96 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: own personal vehicle and someone having been in there, say 97 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 1: that they were shorter than you and they've adjusted seat, 98 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: moved it forward. You're gonna understand that. And people would 99 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: know just from observations of Terra, they're gonna know what 100 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: her height is, Okay, And so when you try to 101 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: factor that in, if your police officer and you're looking, 102 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: well this seems a bit long legged. If you would 103 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: for some one of Tara stature to be uh driving 104 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: this vehicle, it seems um incompatible with her size. It 105 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: gives you an indication at least that maybe somebody else 106 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: had been utilizing the vehicle at that point in time. 107 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: But you know, here's here's one of the big problems 108 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: with that vehicle. Um. The fact is is that that 109 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: vehicle was not thoroughly examined. It just wasn't. And I 110 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: look at vehicles as what we refer to many times 111 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: as secondary scenes, um, because they contain They're like this 112 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: bubble that contains many times of a wealth of evidence, 113 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: and even more so than say a home, for instance, 114 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: because you don't have a lot of people passing through. 115 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: The area's kind of self contained. It turned out later 116 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: that you know, I think that the neighbor had taken 117 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: terrorists vehicle and had a d tailed. Now just imagine 118 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: that that, and I guess that it was out of 119 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: good will. You know, Terry was missing at the time 120 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: that took the vehicle and had it clean for her 121 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: thoroughly and had it brought back to her home. And 122 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: so by the time that that the crime scene investigators 123 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: actually made it to her car in order to inspect it, 124 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: to check it out even further, maybe give it the 125 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: once over. Um, anything that had been in there was gone, 126 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: because you know, when cars get detailed, you use things 127 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: like solvents inside of them, You wipe things down, you 128 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: vacuum things, um, So any kind of evidence that's there 129 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: is going to be greatly compromised at that point in time. 130 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: Not to mention, the individuals that are entering the vehicle 131 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: to clean it are leaving behind traces of themselves. Okay, say, 132 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: for instance, you've got a guy that's that is vacuuming, okay, 133 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: the carpet inside of terrorist vehicle. Well, you don't know, 134 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: but if he's been detailing three and four other cars 135 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: that same day, he's gonna drag all of that particulate 136 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: evidence from those other vehicles he's meen in in the 137 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: world in which he inhabits into her vehicle and deposited there. 138 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: Just imagine you can begin to kind of do the 139 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: calculus on this, and you understand why anything that might 140 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: be found in there is gonna essentially be kind of 141 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: invalid from an evidentiary standpoint, because this goes to cross contamination. 142 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: And it goes back to what was said over a 143 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: century ago by Edmond Lekard, and that is every contact 144 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: leaves a trace. So that's one of the defining principles 145 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: in forensics that we work under. So you know, what 146 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: you're saying is you're introducing yourself into the environment, even 147 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: as a crime scene investigator, um, but so much more 148 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: for somebody that's going in and cleaning, they're essentially wipe 149 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: in a way all evidence. You're not going to have 150 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: anything that is going to be usable within this vehicle. 151 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: So if this vehicle was used, say for instance, to 152 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: transport terra um, if there was evidence blood evidence in there, 153 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: if there was any kind of other bodily fluids that 154 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: were in there, there's a good chance they would be 155 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: greatly compromised. And even more so, you would expect to 156 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: find her DNA in the vehicle because she operates the vehicle. 157 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: But what if you're looking for that one person that 158 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: essentially has no contact with her whatsoever in her normal 159 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: workaday life, and their evidence may have been deposited in 160 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: that vehicle was gone now because now it's been cleaned 161 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: and all of that is eradicated. I'm sure most of 162 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: our listeners, Joe, when you talk about this car being detailed, 163 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: it raised so many red flags because number one, what 164 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: neighbor has the keys to somebody else's car and just 165 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: does this? To me, this is like, wait a minute, 166 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna take my car and clean it without telling me, 167 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: you're gonna take my car and clean it. And when 168 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: you couldn't tell me you were gonna take my car 169 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: and clean it, that didn't raise any red flags for 170 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: this person. Yeah, and I think again, you've got you've 171 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: got a couple of things that work here. First off, 172 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: you've got a community that is that's that's just wringing 173 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: in hand, that's just en its hands and grieving. Okay, Um, 174 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: you've got people that want to extend goodwill and help out. Remember, 175 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: Oscilla is a is a just a tiny little town 176 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: out in rural South Georgia. Stuff like this just doesn't happen. 177 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it just does not happen. So people are 178 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: kind of working through this thing, trying to do something 179 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: for people, just trying to you know, um, soothe themselves 180 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: and maybe soothe other members of her family or just 181 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: make up some you know, let me rephrase that, just 182 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: kind of offer up something that they can do as 183 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: a gesture of kindness, and I think that probably that 184 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: was the motivation behind here. Now you can look at 185 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,599 Speaker 1: it from a more skeptical view and say, well, with 186 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: this person, and I certainly look at it this way 187 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: as an investigator, if I wasn't one on the ground, Uh, 188 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: did this person have some kind of nefarious reason for 189 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: doing this? Were they trying to cover tracks at this 190 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: point in time? And I don't think that that really 191 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: lead anywhere as far as the police were concerned. But 192 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: at at the at the end, this falls squarely on 193 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: the shoulders of law enforcement, okay, because it doesn't rest 194 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: on the on the neighbor who did this act of 195 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, being a good samaritan. This rest you know 196 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: from Jump Street that car, that car should have been 197 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: impounded at that moment in time. You know, you we've 198 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: already talked about how the seat was, I was adjusted 199 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: all right, that it seemed askew or are out of 200 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: the normal it was at that point in time you 201 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:08,359 Speaker 1: got this missing, uh person that that just it's outside 202 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: of her normal behavior. That car should have been taken 203 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: by the police at that moment time. It's questered somewhere 204 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: so that no one else had access to it. And 205 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: I think that if that had occurred, looking back at 206 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 1: this retrospectively, there would be far fewer questions and a 207 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: lot more answers. I think one of the other pieces 208 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: of evidence that came from the home actually came from 209 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: outside the home. Police found a latex glove. Now, today, 210 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: with all of our knowledge about forensics, we would think, 211 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: or you would think that finding that latex glove outside 212 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: the home would have been a game changer for this investigation, 213 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: but that ended up not being the case. Joe, you know, 214 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: you've got a couple of folks that had borne witness 215 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: to that club. Famously, the next neighbor, elderly gentleman had 216 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: come over uh to look for terror at that at 217 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: that point in time, and that gentleman, who was up 218 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: in age, had stated that he saw a glove, a 219 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: let x glove on the ground in the yard to 220 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: tear his home. And you know, we're thinking about this 221 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: is back in two thousand five, and so we had 222 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: not quite gotten to the point from a technology standpoint 223 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: where we were going to use touch DNA. However, what 224 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:41,119 Speaker 1: is significant, I think in this particular case is that um, 225 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: the analysts that examined the glove did an external sampling 226 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: on the outside of the glove, okay, and also within 227 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: the glove. So you're talking about swabbing all the surfaces 228 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: because you don't know what you're gonna get. And and 229 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: as it turned out, they they were able to develop 230 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: a couple of profiles off of off of what they 231 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: had recovered from the glove. And keep in mind again 232 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: this is prior to the days of us actually having 233 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: touched DNA, and just so are our listeners understand and 234 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: remember touch DNA comes about as a result of deposition 235 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: of essentially dead cells, like dead skin cells. We sluck 236 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of these per day. You're not aware 237 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: of it, Lord knows, you know lotion companies have made 238 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: uh tons of money off of dry skin treatments, all right, Well, 239 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: that the reason is is that we we sluve skin cells, 240 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: and in those skin cells there are particular pieces of 241 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: DNA that we can essentially replicate, make a make a 242 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: profile off of. Back in two thousand five, we weren't 243 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: quite there yet. You still, most of the DNA sample 244 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: back then required uh some kind of bodily fluid. You know, 245 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: you're thinking about blood, you're thinking about uh semen, saliva, 246 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: those sorts of things, wet samples, if you will. And 247 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: as we move forward in time, now we're beginning to 248 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: be able to take fragmentary DNA and create this, you know, 249 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: this kind of replicant uh DNA pattern and develop a 250 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: profile off of that. So going back, this was very 251 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: significant that she had taken samples off of both aspects 252 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: of the glove, both the interior and the exterior. And 253 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: you know, at the end that I think that it's 254 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: important because if if that had not been done, um, 255 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: then you would still have many questions that have since 256 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: been answered relative to who was involved in terrorists appearance. 257 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: You know, unlike children that disappear, you're not going to 258 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 1: have a bunch of alerts that go up when an 259 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: adult disappears. And that was one of the problems that 260 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: existed in terrorist case from Jump Street. And she's thirty 261 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: years old, she's christ your free will. She can make 262 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: a decision to go and UH and disappear or go 263 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: somewhere else, and she doesn't have to report to anybody, 264 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: And that was the problem all along with this case, Jackie. 265 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: It was Joe the level of disinformation, for lack of 266 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: a better way to put it, between state agents and 267 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: local authorities, really buggled down this investigation. It was more 268 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: than ten years before an arrest were made in this case. 269 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: But what we find is that the arrest in this 270 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: case of Ryan Duke and bo Dukes was a long 271 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: time incoming. Investigators said that this pair was on their 272 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: radar early in the investigation. Information came to the agents 273 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: about the investigation, but they didn't follow up the information 274 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: that was relayed to them. Appeared as if this pair 275 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: had been cleared by local authorities. That never happened. They 276 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: weren't cleared by local authorities. They weren't cleared by state authorities. 277 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: Ryan Duke and bou Duke were former students of Tera Grinstead. 278 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: Remember she was a history teacher. So how did that 279 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: fall through the cracks? Joe? Sometimes these things happened in 280 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: that way. Remember when Tara first vanished, Um, you you 281 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: had the locals that were the first responders on the scene. 282 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: This would be you know, the Ascilla Police department that 283 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: had showed up and they they're they're kind of the 284 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: initial point of contact. And uh. One one of the 285 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: problems that happens is that you lose you lose information 286 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: you're when you have an assisting agency that comes in. 287 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: In this case, it was the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. 288 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: And most of the time, because people might not understand 289 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: how this happens, the g b I and most state 290 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: investigative agencies, they don't come into a local investigation of 291 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: their own free will, if you will, they have to 292 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: be summoned or requested to come in. And you know, 293 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: I think early on Ocilla, though, Sila p D saw 294 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: that there was a need to have someone that had 295 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: greater resources, so they invited the g b I to 296 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: come in. And of course this is after the fact, 297 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: when you've got essentially to investigations going on. The assumption 298 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: I think by the g b I was that, um, 299 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: the Oscilla Police Department had already cleared this pair. Uh, 300 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: You've got bow Duke's and that's with an S, and 301 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: it's kind of confusing. And then you have Ryan Duke 302 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: and these guys are friends, but you know there's they're 303 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: not related anyway. As a matter of fact, the names 304 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: are completely different. One is d u K E and 305 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: the other's d u K S. But they were friends 306 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: and they were on the radar according to the g 307 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: b I, but their assumption was these two had been 308 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: cleared by the Oscilla Police Department, so they didn't pursue 309 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 1: the lead. The one thing that kind of turned this 310 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: entire case was the fact that uh Bo Dukes, who 311 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: arguably has very trouble passed. You know, he had been 312 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: in the military, UM, he had been had served Tom 313 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: in federal prison. UM. For I think it was like 314 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: a hundred fifty thousand dollars in theft from the federal government. UM. 315 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: While he was in the military, served Tom in federal prison. UM. 316 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: He had been accused of some really bad things in 317 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: other cases. One case in particular was a rape case 318 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: which he was indicted for UM. But he had, you know, 319 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: kind of slipped under the radar, and that in and 320 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: of itself was crushing to the investigation early on. I 321 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: think that there may have been answers that were gleaned 322 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: far sooner had they had an eye on these pair. 323 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: So what ultimately became the big break in this case, Joe, 324 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: I think that the genesis of it came as a 325 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: result of Bo Duke's um imbibing, drinking and uh then 326 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: uh running his mouth and he began to you know, 327 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: kind of hold forth on how he had been involved 328 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: in the disappearance of Terra Grinstead UM. And there were 329 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: a couple of people along the way that he had 330 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: mentioned this to, namely an old army buddy of his 331 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: UM who he had stated plainly to him that he 332 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: had had a hand in terrace disappearance. Fellow come in 333 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: to visit uh Duke's family at at Christmas time during 334 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: the holidays, and he had been invited in he had 335 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: mentioned it to him then and and then UM, and 336 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: then he had mentioned to a couple of other folks 337 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: as well that that you know, he had information relative 338 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: to Terrance and and connection was never really made early 339 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: on UM by the police to this. And finally, you know, 340 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: folks came forward and actually connected the two UM. And 341 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: when bou Dukes was finally arrested, Uh, he made a 342 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: confession at that point in time kind of laid out 343 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: exactly what had happened. And to say the very least, 344 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: it was it was very chilling, you know, UM kind 345 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: of scenario that he laid out what happened on that 346 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: that faithful night and the following days. UM. Back in 347 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: two thousand five. Ultimately, Joe Ryan Duke is charged with 348 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: five counts burglary, aggravated assault, malice, murder, felony murder, and 349 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: concealing a death. Bou Dukes is charged with helping him 350 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: to dispose of the body. What did we find out 351 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: that happened to her? Joe? In this testimony? We know 352 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: that Ryan Duke gained access to the home using a 353 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: credit card, which is why we saw no signs of 354 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: forced entry, right, And but when it comes to her death, 355 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: what do we know? Yeah, you know, bow Dukes made 356 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: made a couple of statements relative to what had been 357 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 1: related to him allegedly by Ryan Duke. And this is 358 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: kind of how it lays out from what Duke's bow 359 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: Dukes had stated. He stated that he was told um 360 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: by uh by Ryan that uh he had entered the 361 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: house using a credit card and he was able to 362 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: jimmy the lock essentially, and this can be easily done. 363 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: And when this is done, you're talking about taking a 364 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: plastic credit card and applying it to um to a 365 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: door jam that's not very secure and kind of slipping it, 366 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: slipping it into the non much there where uh where. 367 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: Actually the blocking mechanism meets the door jam itself, and 368 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: you can disengage the lock and quietly gain entrance into 369 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: the house. So there's no forcing, there's no kicking, there's 370 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: no prime um of the door, so you're not gonna 371 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: have things like tool marks, you know. So when the 372 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: cops would look at that, they'd be scratching their heads saying, 373 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, well, we don't have any signs of forced 374 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: entry here. Uh, no one has forced this door open, 375 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: because it's not going to leave any evidence behind. And 376 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: then Bow went on to say that Ryan related to 377 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: him that he had climbed into the bed with Terra 378 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: and strangled her. And you know, of the course of 379 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: my career, I've worked, you know, I've worked quite a 380 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: few um strangulations and people that are in kind of 381 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: a symmetrical positions where you've got the dominant individual the 382 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: attacker who is in fact dominant. That's that asymmetry. And 383 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: now you're talking about a grown man that is hovering 384 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: um over a slightly built woman lying in her bed. Um, 385 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: why did he feel the need to climb into the 386 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: bed with her? And the fact that he stated that 387 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,959 Speaker 1: he climbed into the bed with her implies something else. 388 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: To me, it does, at least as an investigator, that 389 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: that gives it almost an air of some kind of Um, 390 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: there's a sexual element there to me, in in in 391 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: to my way of thinking. Um. And then he he 392 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: strangles her. And in the meantime Bow has stated that 393 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: um uh that Ryan had acquired uh Bow's truck because 394 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: Bo was drunk the night that this occurred and had 395 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: passed out. Ryan goes back, gets Ryan's truck, places tear 396 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: his body into the truck, and takes her body off 397 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: some distance to a pecan orchard that he was very 398 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: familiar with, and essentially dumps this woman's body out in 399 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: a in a debris area. Uh there on this on 400 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: this property at pecan orchard. Um. And all of this 401 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: is being related by bou Do, who you know, agreed 402 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: for whatever reason to go with Ryan out to this 403 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: location and to verify to help him. It's it kind 404 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: of remained unclear until Bo finally said yet he agreed 405 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: to help Ryan dispose of Tera Grinstead's body. Now Here. 406 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: Here's the key thing, you know, going back to what 407 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: I stated about the bed and in him climbing into 408 00:27:53,520 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: the bed with her. When Bo first observed tears by 409 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: he made. He made several observations in this. The most glaring, 410 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,639 Speaker 1: I think is the fact that he stated that her 411 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: body was nude. Well, as investigators when we look at 412 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: a crime scene and we see a female, um, well 413 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: for any any person in particular, but you know, when 414 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: you're investigating death like this and you see the body 415 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 1: of a female that is nude. Has said that that 416 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: has heavy sexual overtones. Assuming that Terr Grinstead did not 417 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: sleep nude, that she wore some type of bedclothing, you know, 418 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: like the pajamas or you know, gym shorts or something 419 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: to bed. Why while her or her clothes removed from 420 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: her or body, It just you know that that's that's 421 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: a big question. Then he stated that her body was discolored, 422 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: and I think that probably what he was observing at 423 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: that point in time was the fact that she had 424 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: already started to go into decomposational changes and the body, 425 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: the body during this period of time will take on 426 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: kind of a dark color um as as the body 427 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: becomes progressively more dehydrated. This is a process of desiccation, 428 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: if you will. And then one other thing, uh kind 429 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: of the final the final thing here, um he stated 430 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: that she had what appeared to be marks on her 431 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: neck or injuries to her neck, and this goes back 432 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: confirmed as a confirmation based upon what Ryan had allegedly 433 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: stated the boat that he had gotten into the bed 434 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: with her and strangled her. You know, strangulation is a 435 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: very intimate event. It's probably from uh, commission of a 436 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: homicide is probably the most intimate because you you're placing 437 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: flesh on flesh at that moment time. It's not like 438 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: beating Somebody's not like stabbing somebody. It's not like certainly 439 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: not like shooting somebody. You're literally placing your hands on 440 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: this person, flesh on flesh and squeezing the life out 441 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: of them. You're in a dominant position over them. And 442 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: so for for that, you know, he is the only 443 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: essentially linkage back to physical evidence or well, let's don't 444 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: say physical evidence, but he is the only source at 445 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: this point in time that we have for what actually 446 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: happened to Tara, because after that he begins to assist 447 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: with the destruction of our remains in the concealment of 448 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: her death. Tara's body was cremated by this pair Joe. 449 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: We know this because that's what they have admitted to 450 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: in court taking the body to the pecan orchard. And 451 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: as we have discussed before on body bags, we know 452 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: that it takes a long time, that it takes a 453 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: high temperature to cremate a body. What does it tell us, Joe, 454 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: that they took Taras body to this area to burn 455 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: it to get rid of the evidence of their crime. 456 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: There there's one other element here relative to fire. What 457 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: else do you need? You need concealment and and I'm 458 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: not just talking about just kind of you know, doing 459 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: things in a dark space. I'm talking about you need 460 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: an out of the way place. You need a place 461 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: that is not going to draw attention, someplace that off 462 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: the beaten path. And that gives you an idea that 463 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: whoever did this, you know, bo Is is certainly taking 464 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: responsibility for his participation in this. You would have to 465 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,239 Speaker 1: have an awareness with you. You'd have to have an 466 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: awareness of where you could go in order to facilitate this. 467 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: Because there's all kinds of things that you're gonna need 468 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: in order to set this up. Concealment is the biggest thing, 469 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: so that you're not going to draw attention, because as 470 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned, this is not something that happens in a flash. 471 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: This is something that takes a tremendous amount of time. 472 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: But not just time, it takes attention. Check. There's an attempt, 473 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: I think, with tears death of what I refer to 474 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: as the humanization where you take this beautiful, vital young 475 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: lady that love folks, loved her family, and you just 476 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: absolutely ripper to shreds and then, you know, it's kind 477 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: of the exclamation point on it. You reduce her down 478 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: to absolutely nothing, down to her base elements as a 479 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: human being. As we were just talking about Joe, it 480 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: takes a long time time to cremate a body. Before 481 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: we get to that, let's start with how they found 482 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: what was left of the body. Because there wasn't much left, 483 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: was there? No, No, there wasn't And the investigators were 484 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: actually led out to the scene, um bye bye duke. 485 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: Uh and when they got there that there was still 486 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: an approximation of the area, uh where the cremation had 487 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: had taken place. And keep in mind, we're we're years 488 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 1: down the road, you know, from from where this actually happened. Um. 489 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: You know the thing about burning wood and these organic 490 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: substances is that it can uh it changes the nature 491 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: of the soil, It changes the nature of of the 492 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 1: plant growth that's in the area. As a matter of fact, 493 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: it will kind of enrich the soil, if you will, 494 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: relative to the remnant of the fire. So that what 495 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: we refer to as the topography and also the taffonomy. 496 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: Taffonomy is a term that's used in UH forensic anthropology, 497 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: and it goes to the distribution of remains, skeletal remains 498 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 1: in particular, are cremated remains in regards to the topography 499 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: and how water impacts it and how UH plant growth 500 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: and all these things affect what you're looking at as 501 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: an investigator, And so when you go out, you're relying 502 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 1: on information coming from an individual that has perpetrated this horrible, 503 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: horrible deed and basing your investigation upon that. At least 504 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: that's that's the point of where you you know, kind 505 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: of uh start the investigation, the physical investigation that's seen 506 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: and begin to process it. And at first, you know, 507 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: I can only imagine the investor skaters being out there 508 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: and you know, kind of scratching their head and thinking, well, 509 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: how how exactly are we going to start off here? 510 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: You know, how are we gonna begin to try to 511 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: put together what exactly happened. Are we going to be 512 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: able to establish some kind of some kind of boundaries 513 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: for where this this cremation took place. It's a dawning task, 514 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: to say the very least as fullye started the investigation 515 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 1: in that orchard. They found bone fragments. They found pieces 516 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: of her backbone, bone fragments of her fingers and toes, 517 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,959 Speaker 1: and some of her skull. How did they find that, Joe? 518 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: You know, they found remains of what they're would have 519 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: been referred to as the small bones of the hand. 520 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: But what stands out to me the most are these 521 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: three elements. The fact that they found some of the skull, 522 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: some of the spinal process, which are the vertebral body, 523 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: and also they found a single tooth. Now, when you 524 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: take all of that in its totality, aside from the handbones, 525 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about the spine um, the skull, 526 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: and the tooth, those those are arguably, uh, some of 527 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: the most robust elements of the body. Um. That means 528 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: that they will they will last uh even in the 529 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: face of a fire, uh, far longer than some of 530 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:39,240 Speaker 1: the other elements that will be essentially um essentially disintegrated 531 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: UH as a result of exposure to prolonged exposure to heat. 532 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: And it's not necessarily surprising that they were able to 533 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: find vertebral body UH and part of the skull and 534 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: the tooth UM. And I like for the listeners to understand, 535 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: and you might think this is kind of an obvious statement, 536 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: but teeth or you know, arguably some of those resilient 537 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: elements of the human body, and they are not bone, 538 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,320 Speaker 1: they're not bone. But it's key here, Jackie, to understand 539 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: that they found not teeth but a tooth, a tooth. 540 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: Why is that significant? Well, the fact is is that 541 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 1: it is a tooth, not the teeth that gives you 542 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: an ideas to how hot this fire was. Because um 543 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: in in the process of cremation or rendering down remains 544 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: through heat, UH, teeth will will last longer than just 545 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: about any other element in in the human body. And 546 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: let's say, for instance, you you have a body UM 547 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: and we can kind of explain maybe and I'll take 548 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: a staff at it. We can kind of explain why, uh, say, 549 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 1: some of the spinal processes might have been found or 550 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,720 Speaker 1: part of the skull. And if you would imagine somebody 551 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: laying in a supine position or face up, um, those 552 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: areas that are on the back side are going to 553 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: be protected. So if you've got a shot at at 554 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: any element surviving, it's going to be those that are protected. Say, uh, 555 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: they're making contact with the dirt. I suspect it probably 556 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: uh if she had been in an attitude uh supine attitude, 557 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: which is face up, lying on her back, then maybe 558 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: that portion of the skull that was recovered would have 559 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,760 Speaker 1: been one of the more robust areas of the skull. 560 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 1: And that there's two areas that are particularly very very 561 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: uh dense, and that's going to be the frontal bone, 562 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: which is where your forehead is, and the back of 563 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: your head um the accipital region, which is that kind 564 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: of bony prominence that you have on the back of 565 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: your skull. That the areas of the skull are very 566 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: very thick in those locations. And then you know the 567 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: catebral bodies, if she's in a supine position, are going 568 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,439 Speaker 1: to be more resistant I think, to exposure of the heat. 569 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: And they are in and of themselves as far as 570 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: bone goes, um, they are more resilient. They're very thick 571 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: um kind of robust and then of course you have 572 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: this tooth that is left behind. UH. And teeth are 573 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 1: highly heat resistant. UH for a protracted period of time, UM, 574 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: they'll last longer. And that's one of the reasons when 575 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:32,400 Speaker 1: you have an actual cremation that's done in a crematory. UM. 576 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: Most of the time, the the cremains, those remains that 577 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,280 Speaker 1: have been rendered down will come out of a conveyor 578 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: belt and they will pass through an augur which is 579 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: this kind of giant screw, and it further renders down 580 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: the remains by crushing, because when those remains have turned 581 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 1: to family, it's essentially dust that that's left behind. But 582 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 1: there's still those elements that are so robust that they 583 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: have to be you know, kind of rendered down for there. 584 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: That's not the case with terrors remains. Not everything was 585 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: completely rendered down. But that came very very close, Jackie, 586 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: very close. Okay, I'm gonna sound really intelligent here, Joe, 587 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: You're gonna be really proud of me. Done some research 588 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: and we know that bone is made up of protein collagen. Okay, 589 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: teeth are made of enamel and calcium. Teeth can be 590 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: destroyed by sugar. By decay, bone cannot. So you're telling 591 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 1: me that fire is not as damaging as sugar to 592 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 1: a tooth. I mean, what I'm trying to understand is 593 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: if we have this substance in our body that is 594 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: as hard or maybe harder than our bones, how can 595 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: we end up with this result? Yeah, Yeah, that's that's 596 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: that's actually a very uh intriguing question, Jackie. Um, You're 597 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: you're talking about a physiological reaction the teeth to exposure, 598 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: long term exposure to something like a sugar, and and 599 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: more people are susceptible to it than than others, you know, 600 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: as far as decay, dental decay goes. But you know, 601 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: we're talking about two different types of chemical reactions here. Uh, 602 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: fire in fact, is a chemical reaction. Uh, It's a 603 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: sustained chemical reaction. There's several elements that are involved in it, 604 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: and it happens in a very short order. And because 605 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 1: of the density and the structure of the teeth, they 606 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: are heat resistant. Um. When it when exposed, even long 607 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: term exposure to heat, one bodies are being rendered down. 608 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: Bone not so much, it's it's not made that way. 609 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 1: The matrices of the bone begins to break down and 610 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,320 Speaker 1: it's It's fascinating because you know, one of the ways 611 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: that that forensic anthropologists will verify in court, for instance, 612 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: that bone has been exposed to fire. One of the 613 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: things that they will actually say, Jackie, is that it 614 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: weighs less and didn't not a fascinating, fascinating observation, because 615 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: as bone is exposed to heat, it begins to bleed 616 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: off these various elements, you know, and including things like 617 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: water um. The collagen is burned away, so that all 618 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:38,160 Speaker 1: you're left with is essentially the bone becomes calcific and 619 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: it takes on a white white appearance, and you can 620 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: look at it's got kind of a honeycomb formation. That's 621 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: kind of the matrices the bones that you can see exposed. 622 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 1: And so the longer exposed to heat, the lighter the 623 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: bone becomes. And that's one of the scientific ways in 624 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: legal ways that you verify if if a bone has 625 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: been exposed to heat. And I've heard many times that 626 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,359 Speaker 1: forensic anthropologies, when asked that question underdirect you know, how 627 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,319 Speaker 1: do you know that this body was burned based upon 628 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: the skeletal remains that you examine, and that's one of 629 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,839 Speaker 1: the things they'll say, the bone is lighter teeth are 630 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: not necessarily going to lose that weight. They won't lose 631 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: it as quickly because there there they act as kind 632 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: of like a shield. And one of the things I 633 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: teach my students when it comes to DNA, for instance, 634 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: if you imagine, you know, we can extract DNA from bone, um, 635 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: but you can also get it from teeth. You go 636 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: into the pulp of the tooth, and the teeth are 637 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,720 Speaker 1: much more resilient, you know. Uh, they can hold onto 638 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: things a lot longer. You know, you look at you know, 639 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: remains that have been in the ground for years and years. 640 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: You can do a DNA extraction on those remains. And 641 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: I tell them that bone is like a leather briefcase 642 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: and uh for retaining things. But teeth are like a 643 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: titanium briefcase. They just they're more resilient. They hang onto 644 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: things longer. And in this case and terrorist case in particularly, 645 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: they found this single tooth. And the fact that they 646 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: found a single tooth me is that they weren't at 647 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: least able to identify the other teeth or the teeth 648 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: were so affected by the level of heat that this 649 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: body was exposed to that they became rendered down. Until 650 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 1: you know, out of the thirty two, there was only 651 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 1: one remaining. Okay, so let's talk about how they managed 652 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: to cremate this body so that there's very little remaining. 653 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: They are in a pecan orchard, so you would imagine 654 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,040 Speaker 1: since they're planning to start a fire, they're going to 655 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: use what they easily have on hand, which is pecan wood. Yeah. Yeah, pecan. 656 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,399 Speaker 1: Pecan's an interesting wood. Um it's a hardwood, and it's 657 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: comparable actually to hickory, and um wood is ranked as 658 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,440 Speaker 1: far as like its ability to burn things or to 659 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: maintain heat um as it's rated as one of the highest. Uh. 660 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,479 Speaker 1: It's rated as a wood that can produce the most 661 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: heat all right, Hickory. It's in the same family as hickory. 662 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: The only level above pecan is oak. All right. So 663 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 1: if you're going to choose a wood to generate heat, with, 664 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: pecans a good choice. And obviously, as you well stated that, uh, 665 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: that's a fuel source that you would have access to. Um. 666 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: You know, the thing about pecan orchards is that many times, 667 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 1: you know, as you and we have them all over 668 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 1: the South, um limbs fall away. If people are tending 669 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: their pecan orchards. What they will do is they'll grab 670 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: that wood and they'll create these kind of debris piles. Okay, 671 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: And so you've got wood that's not just laying there 672 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: and is available to use as a fuel source. But 673 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,959 Speaker 1: it's seasoned wood, Jackie, which means that it burns even 674 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: better after it's been laying out for a while exposure 675 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: to the elements. It's no longer vital. It's not green. 676 00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's not gonna smoke a lot. It's just 677 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: gonna you're gonna get right to the point where it 678 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 1: if you can get this thing ignited and set off, 679 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: you're gonna have really a really hot fire. And to 680 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: give you an idea as to how hot the con 681 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:18,840 Speaker 1: wood burns, uh is quite notable. Um and UH for 682 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: folks that don't know, you know, heat is measured UM 683 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,760 Speaker 1: in many times and B two use it's a British 684 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: thermal unit. And that's just so folks understand a B 685 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:37,240 Speaker 1: to you, a British thermal unit is equates to the 686 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: amount of heat that it takes to raise one pound 687 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 1: and yes I said pound of water one degree fahrenheit. 688 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: And if you look at pecan wood and just hold 689 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: onto your hat. Here if you look at thee con wood, 690 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,800 Speaker 1: the con would if you take a cord of wood, 691 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: and that's the standard measured UH for UH firewood, which 692 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: is some people, you know, particularly down here in South, 693 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: they say I got a whole truckload of wood, and 694 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: many times it's a uh. They're saying that they mean accord, 695 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: and accord turns out to be about a cubic feet 696 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:22,839 Speaker 1: of wood. Cubic feet of pecan wood will generate right 697 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: about twenty eight million b two use. Now keep that 698 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: in mind by what I just said, so it will 699 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: take one b tu raises the temperature of one pound 700 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:46,640 Speaker 1: of water one degree fahrenheigh. So it's not necessarily how 701 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: hot it was at one particular time relative to the 702 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,400 Speaker 1: disposal of terrors remains. It's to protracted time. It's the 703 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: piling on the wood. It's created a pire, if you will, 704 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, pires is something that is created an underpinning 705 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: of wood where you have this fuel source. You lay 706 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: a body on top of a pire, and then you 707 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 1: continue to put fuel onto it. It's the the continued exposure. So, 708 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: out of all of the woods that could have been chosen, 709 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,360 Speaker 1: becan is the one that's going to generate the most heat. 710 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 1: It's going to create an environment that is going to 711 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,439 Speaker 1: be very very hostile to a body. Uh, that will 712 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: cause it at an elemental level to literally become uh disintegrated. Um. 713 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: But it requires constant attention. And you know when bo 714 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 1: Duke's talks about what he claims that he did in 715 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,480 Speaker 1: assisting Ryan do, he actually stated that it took them 716 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 1: about two days to render down terrors remains. And what 717 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: does that mean, Well that this goes to the tending 718 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: of fire. It's it's not you know, and this is 719 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,759 Speaker 1: this as part of the dehumanization factor when it comes 720 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: to terra. It's not like you you poured an accelerant 721 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: like gasoline like you see arsonists do many times, and 722 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,240 Speaker 1: strike a match and walk off and everything. You people 723 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,879 Speaker 1: have this perception everything disappears. It doesn't. A matter of fact, 724 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: you create more evidence when you do that. They stood 725 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,359 Speaker 1: out there for a protracted period of time, according to 726 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,879 Speaker 1: Bow for two days intended to fire. So what what 727 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,440 Speaker 1: went into that, Well, any time the fire started to 728 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: die down, they would go get more wood and pilot on. 729 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,880 Speaker 1: Any time that the flame reduced, they would turn the fire. 730 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,440 Speaker 1: Sai that they would turn the coals over and the 731 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: entire time, and this is quite gruesome, but the entire 732 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,040 Speaker 1: time there lay what remained of Terra, and they're constantly 733 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,080 Speaker 1: adding more fuel to this area surrounding her body, and 734 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: they're trying to render her down further and further and further, 735 00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: until at least in their perception, everything was gone. But 736 00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,399 Speaker 1: they missed a few elements, and at the end that's 737 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:09,000 Speaker 1: how they were able to presumptively determined that this was 738 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: in fact Terrogrind states remains. How does what you described 739 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,280 Speaker 1: with the b t us of the pecan would compare 740 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,680 Speaker 1: to a crematory, you know, and again I think this 741 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: is a big, big part of this. You know, with 742 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,799 Speaker 1: a crematory, you have a contained oven that is it's 743 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,239 Speaker 1: got it's got four walls, man, you know, it's a 744 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,279 Speaker 1: it's a box. It's like a big metal box that 745 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,760 Speaker 1: you're you're putting a human remain on, essentially a conveyor belt, 746 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:43,239 Speaker 1: and it goes in and these metal door shut and 747 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,439 Speaker 1: you've got these little jets that are in there that 748 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: are fueled by natural gas. And it's a constant natural 749 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 1: gas source. And it's not just the direct burning of 750 00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,880 Speaker 1: the flame. It is the heat within the oven that 751 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: creates this kind of uh convex. This this heat convection 752 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,879 Speaker 1: that's going on in this In this environment, the heat 753 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 1: is whipping around the remains and so it's not just 754 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,320 Speaker 1: direct burning, it's it's the air itself is so hot, 755 00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: and so you're talking about a constant burning roughly and 756 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,880 Speaker 1: it's variable. You'll hear people say, you know, wellt fIF 757 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: hundred degrees of exposure. You know, intercreminatory is going to 758 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: render down a body. Well, a lot of that's depended 759 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: upon the body that you're burning, you know, the mass, 760 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 1: you know, and how long will it take and how 761 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:35,920 Speaker 1: much heat is required and all that sort of thing. 762 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 1: When you look at terrorist body though, this was not 763 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 1: a contained area. This is an open air area. So 764 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 1: you look at at this factor that's brought into this. 765 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,800 Speaker 1: And again this goes back to what had to happen 766 00:51:55,440 --> 00:52:00,160 Speaker 1: at the hand of bow Dukes and according to him them, 767 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: at the hand of Ryan Duke. Um, they had to 768 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:06,360 Speaker 1: stand there and maintain this heat because they don't have 769 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,520 Speaker 1: a cap on this. They're losing heat as a result 770 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: of applying this firewood or this pecan would to be 771 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,520 Speaker 1: burned as fuel. Uh a lot of it is disappearing 772 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,319 Speaker 1: up into the air. So that's why they're always having 773 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,320 Speaker 1: to turn the fire, turn the fire and add fuel. 774 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,399 Speaker 1: Turn the fire and add fuel. And when I say 775 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,320 Speaker 1: turned the fire, if you've ever seen a camp fire, 776 00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,640 Speaker 1: you'll notice those those coals that glow red hot. But 777 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: they don't glow red hot forever and ever, Amen, because 778 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,920 Speaker 1: there is not a sustaining fuel source, they will eventually 779 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,759 Speaker 1: burn out. They were aware of this. They knew this. 780 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: They knew that they had to continue to apply heat 781 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,279 Speaker 1: because they're bleeding off heat all along. Because it's outdoors, 782 00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,040 Speaker 1: it's not like it's in a crematory. This would have 783 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,919 Speaker 1: been long, dirty work. They would have had to set 784 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,760 Speaker 1: there for a protracted period of time searching out firewood. 785 00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,560 Speaker 1: If they didn't come prepared for it, they had to 786 00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,680 Speaker 1: go dry I get from other brush piles. Perhaps maybe 787 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:06,120 Speaker 1: they cut wood. I don't know, but I do know this. 788 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 1: They applied enough heat and constant heat. You know, according 789 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,520 Speaker 1: to Bo Dukes that it took them two days to 790 00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,479 Speaker 1: eventually render down her body. So this takes us back 791 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:23,040 Speaker 1: Joe to the search for what remained. You've basically got 792 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:28,960 Speaker 1: regrowth of the area you're gonna have ash in the soil. 793 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:33,200 Speaker 1: I would assume that remains. How did the investigators find 794 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,719 Speaker 1: the bone fragment and the tooth. You've got individuals that 795 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,279 Speaker 1: are directing you to the area in which they perpetrated that. 796 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,839 Speaker 1: That's your source of information, if you can imagine this. So, 797 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,320 Speaker 1: once once the team, the crime scene investigative team would 798 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,759 Speaker 1: have shown up out there, um, there's a high likelihood 799 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,640 Speaker 1: that they would call in a forensic anthropologist to show 800 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,960 Speaker 1: up at the scene as well. Because the friends anthropologists 801 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: they have a skill set that is not possessed by 802 00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,160 Speaker 1: very many other people. They spend all of their time 803 00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:11,560 Speaker 1: looking at things that we it just as uh workaday 804 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,960 Speaker 1: people walking along about our lives. That they their their 805 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,800 Speaker 1: worldview of things on the ground and as they see 806 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 1: things is completely different than the way we see them. 807 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: They can pick up on fine detail, that's what they're 808 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:28,360 Speaker 1: trained to do. So when they have identified a specific area, 809 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:33,319 Speaker 1: the forensic anthropologists will go back and essentially attempt through 810 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: their knowledge to validate the information that's coming to the police. 811 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,480 Speaker 1: Visa B bodus. You know, is this a potential area 812 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: where something like this could have happened? Well, what do 813 00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 1: they look at. They look at the distribution of any 814 00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 1: kind of debris on the ground. They try to determine 815 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,360 Speaker 1: if that's new debris, if that's like broken wood that 816 00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,320 Speaker 1: may have just recently fallen, our falling within the last 817 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,880 Speaker 1: half decade, or is there something else that's different about 818 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,240 Speaker 1: the soil, because they also have to be in tune 819 00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: to things like like local soil. You know, down in 820 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,200 Speaker 1: South Georgia, for instance, you've got soil that's very sandy, 821 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 1: Whereas if you go up to you know, like the 822 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,239 Speaker 1: North Georgia Mountains, uh, that soil is completely different in 823 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,279 Speaker 1: that region of the state. So they have to be 824 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:29,040 Speaker 1: very attuned to the type of soil that is um 825 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:33,560 Speaker 1: that is native to that particular area. Then they're gonna 826 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,880 Speaker 1: have to understand something about plant life too, understand um, 827 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,520 Speaker 1: you know what they're looking at the items that are 828 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,640 Speaker 1: growing there, because you know, lots of times when people 829 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,400 Speaker 1: try to cover up, um, cover up crimes like this, 830 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,279 Speaker 1: they'll go in and they will plant things. UM. Now, 831 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,239 Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think that that's the case here, but 832 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:57,320 Speaker 1: they would go back. And that's just the general assessment 833 00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: they're going to do in the beginning. Is there any 834 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,879 Speaker 1: type of what we call flora. Have flora which talks 835 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,759 Speaker 1: about plant life, and you have fauna, which talks about 836 00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:08,080 Speaker 1: animal life. It's the flora that I'm seeing here. Is 837 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,120 Speaker 1: it native to this area? Is is something that was 838 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: brought in and kind of implanted into this area to 839 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: give it a different appearance. They're gonna want to know 840 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,800 Speaker 1: if the soil has been recently upturned or does it 841 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 1: look like it's settled and it has been this way 842 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: forever and ever amen um. And then they're gonna look 843 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:31,960 Speaker 1: for items that may give them an indication that's something 844 00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:34,440 Speaker 1: that's happened here even in the distant past. Because they 845 00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,359 Speaker 1: can look at a wood shard that you and I 846 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:40,319 Speaker 1: could look at and it might not mean anything to us, 847 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,080 Speaker 1: but they can look at the edges of the wood 848 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:47,000 Speaker 1: to see if, in fact, this is indicative of something 849 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,359 Speaker 1: that may have been exposed to high heat. Once they've 850 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 1: identified this area, they're gonna break it down into grids 851 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: and we you know, in crime State Investigation, we talked 852 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,279 Speaker 1: about things like grid searches and all these sorts of 853 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,240 Speaker 1: things where we break down SPECEI cific areas. But for them, 854 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,480 Speaker 1: this is gonna be more in a more condensed area, 855 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,320 Speaker 1: so they'll break it down into grids. If you just imagine, 856 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 1: uh say, across the top of the grid, you've got uh, 857 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:17,960 Speaker 1: you know, a through m okay a a through m, 858 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,760 Speaker 1: and then running down one side you might have you know, 859 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,560 Speaker 1: one through I don't know, seventeen. And if you go 860 00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:31,120 Speaker 1: to block B five, you're going to excavate Block B 861 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,080 Speaker 1: five specifically and nothing else, and you're gonna take out 862 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,840 Speaker 1: every layer of soil, remove it from there, and take 863 00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,320 Speaker 1: it over to what's called a sifting station. And you've 864 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: seen these big sifters that people use where they'll shake 865 00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,240 Speaker 1: it back and forth and the debris will fall through 866 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 1: the screen or the loose turtle fall and everything that's 867 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:54,000 Speaker 1: left in the screen is going to be examined by 868 00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,560 Speaker 1: the friends anthropologis to see if there's any skeletal remnant 869 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: that's in there, and they come again to kind of 870 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,360 Speaker 1: read through that and understand what they're seeing and what's important. 871 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,880 Speaker 1: The reason you want to grid it off is when 872 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,800 Speaker 1: you go back and you're trying to explain this in court, 873 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,160 Speaker 1: you can give an indication as to where that specific 874 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,920 Speaker 1: item was recovered from. And suddenly, if you get it 875 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,120 Speaker 1: in you know B five, and then of course in 876 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 1: uh C five and so forth and so on D five, 877 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,640 Speaker 1: or you know, in close proximity, you can begin to 878 00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:34,320 Speaker 1: see how maybe a body will begin to kind of uh, 879 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,680 Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, kind of rise up 880 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,400 Speaker 1: before your eyes. In these gridge you can see the 881 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,920 Speaker 1: distribution of the remains, and suddenly you get an ideas, okay, 882 00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 1: we found a vertebral body here here here, this is 883 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,600 Speaker 1: where we found the tooth. Um, we may have found 884 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:54,840 Speaker 1: a handbone, a bone from the hand that's over here. Um. 885 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:59,040 Speaker 1: And suddenly, uh, you begin to understand, well, maybe she 886 00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,200 Speaker 1: was in this position and as they burned her body 887 00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,440 Speaker 1: and rendered it down. It's very very painstaking work. This 888 00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,160 Speaker 1: is not something that is done just you know, leisurely 889 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,240 Speaker 1: in an afternoon. It's very very intensive. And here's here's 890 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:14,680 Speaker 1: the really tough thing. When you're talking about fire related cases, 891 00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,760 Speaker 1: these are some of the most difficult recoveries to do 892 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: because when you begin to look at everything at these scenes, 893 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,480 Speaker 1: everything looks the same because it's all been exposed to heat. 894 00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,480 Speaker 1: And now after the fact, not only do you have 895 00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,000 Speaker 1: these items that have all been exposed to heat, now 896 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: over the passage of time, you've got dirt deposition that's 897 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,920 Speaker 1: come on top, you've got plant growth that's come on top, 898 00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,280 Speaker 1: and any kind of impact. Remember I talked about the 899 00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,919 Speaker 1: term taffonomy earlier, where waters float over an area that's 900 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,440 Speaker 1: going to come into play too. It is highly complex 901 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,440 Speaker 1: and if you're not there when you're a game, you're 902 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,920 Speaker 1: gonna lose and miss things. All of this work combines 903 00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:01,919 Speaker 1: Joe to bring hopefully some close sure to Tea Grandstad's 904 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,880 Speaker 1: mother and her family and friends. Uh Bo Dukes is 905 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,959 Speaker 1: in prison convicted for his participation in this. Ryan Duke 906 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:15,160 Speaker 1: is currently standing trial for the murder of Tera Grinstead. 907 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,040 Speaker 1: We do pray that closure in this case does bring 908 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,720 Speaker 1: some comfort to the families. I've never been able to 909 01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,600 Speaker 1: understand if closure is a real thing in homicide cases 910 01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:30,080 Speaker 1: for families, but I do know this that after two decades, 911 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,960 Speaker 1: almost two decades of pure hell that this family has endured, hopefully, 912 01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:41,680 Speaker 1: hopefully they're going to finally find peace. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 913 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,200 Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs