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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Bind torture kill. That is

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Speaker 1: how Denis Raider wants us to address him B T K.

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Speaker 1: Bind torture kill. The only reason we are devoting this

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Speaker 1: time and this energy to his case is because I

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Speaker 1: believe that there are other victims cases that have not

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Speaker 1: been solved, that are out there. And I know this

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Speaker 1: doesn't make sense first, but I'm one of the lucky

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Speaker 1: crime victim's family. I know who murdered my fiance. I

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Speaker 1: know what happened. A lot of people have never known

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Speaker 1: what happened to their mother or their sister, their daughter,

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Speaker 1: their husband. They just know that in one moment, everything

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Speaker 1: ends and your life as you know it, your dreams,

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Speaker 1: your hopes, your plans, your world is gone. That's how

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Speaker 1: I felt at first when I was told Keith had

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Speaker 1: been murdered. Even now sometimes doesn't seem real, but I

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Speaker 1: do know that my hopes and dreams ended that day.

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Speaker 1: If had not been for the Good Lord, I would

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Speaker 1: have nothing, nothing after he murder. So imagine what these

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Speaker 1: people feel. All these years have passed and they don't

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Speaker 1: know what happened to their mom, their daughter. Can you

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Speaker 1: even imagine that horrible? And that is why we're here today,

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Speaker 1: and I want to thank you for being with us. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. You know, Nicole Parton joining

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Speaker 1: us the Forensic Brain Trust. Joe Scott Morgan, and you

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Speaker 1: know what, he's not just an incredible death investigator. He's

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Speaker 1: been on thousands of death scenes and many of them homicide.

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Speaker 1: But do you know he got Jacksonville State University to

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Speaker 1: open its doors to us at Crime Stories and my

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Speaker 1: home Fox Nation, and he actually did a recreation of

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Speaker 1: the murder of Ellen Greenberg, which was ruled a homicide,

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Speaker 1: even though she had twenty two stab wounds, including to

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Speaker 1: the back and the back of her head, in her back,

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Speaker 1: of her neck, and some post mortem after she's dead,

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Speaker 1: the stabbing kept going, it's not a suicide. He re

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Speaker 1: enacted the whole thing with me, I mean, her kitchen, everything.

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Speaker 1: He did that for us. My longtime friend and colleague,

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Speaker 1: renowned a psychologist, Karen Stark. That's Karen with a C,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer and longtime friend and Bremner out of Seattle.

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Speaker 1: This lady, I'm telling you amazing and look at her

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Speaker 1: really and on the end, Cheryl McCollum and I have

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Speaker 1: been not just coworkers, but friends since when I first

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Speaker 1: started the District Attorney's office. The first my recollection of

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Speaker 1: first meeting her. Of course everything she says is a lie,

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Speaker 1: but that said, my first memory of Cheryl. We were

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Speaker 1: at a big, big event. I was working with about

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Speaker 1: women's centers, a volunteer at night and had been for years,

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Speaker 1: and we helped start a program. They didn't have cell

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Speaker 1: phones that we would now start giving cell phones. Was

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Speaker 1: it in conjunction with AT and T or then Bell South?

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Speaker 1: To these women, they were like this big for them

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Speaker 1: to call a hotline to get help, and we were

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Speaker 1: so happy. I still remember the number eight hundred eight

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Speaker 1: seven three seventeen sixty six I think was a hotline

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Speaker 1: number that said Cheryl was there in the midst of it. Now,

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Speaker 1: your recollection is completely different.

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Speaker 2: So the truth is, that's the truth. It was two

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Speaker 2: forty seven in the morning, that's possible. I'm at a

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Speaker 2: crime scene with Jim Birds and all these folks in

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Speaker 2: the GBI and Atlanta Police Department. In this little bitty

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Speaker 2: sports car comes flying up, and I mean flying.

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Speaker 1: I used Honda, It's what that was.

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Speaker 2: Right up to the crime scene, this little bitty person

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Speaker 2: jumps out with a big voice. What do you got?

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Speaker 1: What do you have? What can I do?

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Speaker 2: How can I help? And I was like, what is that?

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Speaker 2: And Jim Burt went, you don't know Nancy Grace. She's

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Speaker 2: a prosecutor. And I'm like a prosecutor. I've never seen

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Speaker 2: a prosecutor outside the courthouse in my life, and here

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Speaker 2: she was out at this time of the morning, ready

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Speaker 2: to help, ready to do whatever we needed. Well, we

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Speaker 2: had a house that had some evidence, but it had

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Speaker 2: a detached garage. Well, honey, we were about to get

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Speaker 2: in that thing because we knew that garage held that

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Speaker 2: money tree. And Nancy went, way, way, you better stop.

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Speaker 2: You need a second potential search warrant because that might

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Speaker 2: have even a different address because it's detached. It could

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Speaker 2: ruin your whole case. So she saved that case for

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Speaker 2: us and taught us a lot. But she is the

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Speaker 2: first prosecutor that I ever saw on sea, and that's

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Speaker 2: how we first met.

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Speaker 1: Let me just say right now, I don't believe that.

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Speaker 1: Because if somebody has a shed or an outhouse or whatever,

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Speaker 1: they have a storage unit that's called curtilage c U

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Speaker 1: R T I L A g E. Under the law,

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Speaker 1: and you don't need a second search warrant for that. However,

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Speaker 1: if it was at a different address like besides, okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe you're telling the truth. Guys, I've got one

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Speaker 1: more group of people I want you to meet. My

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Speaker 1: Here she comes the camera hog Jackie Howard, our executive producer,

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Speaker 1: and also Beauty and Brains. Also another Beauty and Brains.

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Speaker 1: Kelly is all like you say, ski hand skin, because

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Speaker 1: that's the only way my phone will call you with

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Speaker 1: me yelling at it. Please stand up. She's gorgeous and

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Speaker 1: she's brilliant. Sidney Wilson is Chris balf here? Maybe I

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Speaker 1: do know My partner in Bloodline Detectives, John Torensia, is here.

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Speaker 1: Where are you Torensia and ladies. He's single. He needs

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Speaker 1: all the help I can give him. There he is.

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Speaker 1: So now you know our family. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about some other families that we may never meet, the

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Speaker 1: families of btk's victims. You know, even today, when I

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Speaker 1: think about the trial of the guy that murdered Keith,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to think about it. It's still nightmares,

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Speaker 1: still cold sweats. I mean, it never goes away. Has

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Speaker 1: changed the way I lived. I went over, how long

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Speaker 1: was it, Karen start? Oh gosh, almost thirty years before

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Speaker 1: I could think about marriage again. And I almost died

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Speaker 1: in childbirth because I waited so long. Yeah, you told me,

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Speaker 1: you all told me. It affects everything, even the way

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Speaker 1: I raise them sadly. I'm that mom that's driving through

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Speaker 1: the parking lot at lunchtime. I'm you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: afraid what they're gonna do. I don't think they're gonna

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Speaker 1: run off of vape or do drugs or drink. I'm

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Speaker 1: afraid what somebody might do to them, because it's happened before,

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Speaker 1: and in my world, it will happen again. Think about

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Speaker 1: these people, what they've been through and are going through,

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Speaker 1: and the people that we don't know about yet.

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Speaker 3: B t K.

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Speaker 1: May he rot in hell? That said Nicole Parton. Why

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Speaker 1: do we believe there may be more female victims murder

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Speaker 1: victims of Dennis Raider the Dogcatcher.

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of it comes from the evidence

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Speaker 4: that he left behind.

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Speaker 1: There's the journal.

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Speaker 4: He left a very detailed note book journal of victims.

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Speaker 4: He classified them as projects.

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Speaker 1: Guys. To any of you have a diary, a journal,

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Speaker 1: as they call it now, or I like to scrapbook

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Speaker 1: and I put everything in there, like stubs, pictures, whatever

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Speaker 1: I can fit in the pages of the Twins. This

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Speaker 1: guy kept detailed writings.

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Speaker 4: Detailed writings of what he called his projects, his victims.

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Speaker 4: He included a lot of sketches of the locations of

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Speaker 4: the crimes. He included sketches of victims bound and tied,

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Speaker 4: little girls, women.

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Speaker 5: He drew sketches of them after he would sex assault them, bind, torture,

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Speaker 5: then kill them in weird contorted positions. He would draw

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Speaker 5: sketches of them.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Nicole parton, I respect everything

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Speaker 1: you've got to say, but I need a shrink, and

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Speaker 1: I need one right now to draw. It's not like

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Speaker 1: you take a picture. You take the time to draw sketches.

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Speaker 1: And now, Nicole, one of these sketches we now realize

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Speaker 1: is the spitting image of a victim. What is that?

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Speaker 6: That's a souvenir, Nancy, and you have to remember, and

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Speaker 6: this is the truth. His sexual gratification is coming from

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Speaker 6: those souvenirs. So he looks at those pictures, he.

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Speaker 1: Means he'll masturbate to them over and over like some

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Speaker 1: guys with to a Penthouse or Playboy or whatever.

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Speaker 6: This is his pornography, the things that he did for

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Speaker 6: his own sexual fantasy. Is always trying to get to

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Speaker 6: that point where he could relive it, recapture it, and

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Speaker 6: get that same excitement.

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Speaker 1: That's why he does Guys, I just want to tell

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Speaker 1: you this one thing I read last night before getting

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Speaker 1: with you today. Everybody on this panel will have a

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Speaker 1: different take on this. Listen to this. This is forty

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Speaker 1: eight hours old. She has never been forgotten. Teen vanishes,

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Speaker 1: forty I's got chills on my right arm. Forty seven

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Speaker 1: years ago. Officials believe BTK killed her another and she's

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Speaker 1: beautiful Cynthia Kenny k I n n E. White. Now,

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Speaker 1: a new task force has just been named, a BTK

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Speaker 1: Task Force. Cheryl and I are on the task for

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Speaker 1: anybody else on the panel that's on the Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, of course, I'm glad you're on the task force.

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Speaker 1: You know what, Sometimes people are born for a certain moment.

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Speaker 1: I think mine was to have the twins. I really

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Speaker 1: do believe that's why I'm here. You never know, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: why you are where you are, what piece of the

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Speaker 1: puzzle your life will be you know what, what if

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Speaker 1: you could bring somehow you and Cheryl could somehow bring

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Speaker 1: resolution on this girl to her family.

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Speaker 7: I think that, yeah, that would certainly be fantastic. For

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Speaker 7: one of the things that I do as a college

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Speaker 7: professor teaching forensics, there's something that my students watch once

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Speaker 7: a year. It is a must, and from a forensic standpoint,

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Speaker 7: it's invaluable. I have all of my students in one

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Speaker 7: class that I teach watch BTKS and I'll let the

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Speaker 7: lawyers on the panel explain this. I have my students

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Speaker 7: in my class watch btk's allocution in court, and it

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Speaker 7: will send a chill up of your spine. And I've

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Speaker 7: seen a lot of stuff in my career. But when

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Speaker 7: he stands in that very formal environment and he is

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Speaker 7: able within his mind to recall these very intimate details

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Speaker 7: for us, it's a treasure trove, I hate to say that,

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Speaker 7: a forensic knowledge about what steps he took and all

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Speaker 7: of this stuff, and he has this stuff cataloged in

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Speaker 7: his mind, and I wonder, Nancy, I really wonder what

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Speaker 7: else is contained within his mind that hasn't been unlocked

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Speaker 7: yet to this point. Because I think about those victims

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Speaker 7: every time I watch it. I have to watch it

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Speaker 7: once a year. You feel like you need to take

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Speaker 7: your brain out and scrub it with comment afterwards. But

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Speaker 7: it's compelling as a teaching tool.

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Speaker 1: Guys, Joe Scott is so right. I'm trying to wrap

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Speaker 1: my head around the evidence that may link BTK to

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Speaker 1: Cynthia Kenny. Now, Cheryl, you've seen additional evidence, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to ask you to comment on it as

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Speaker 1: part of the task force. Let's go with what we

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Speaker 1: can talk about. First of all, Nicole parton this new

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Speaker 1: victim that I believe was killed by BTK. Where was

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Speaker 1: her disappearance.

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Speaker 4: Was in Osage County in Oklahoma?

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Speaker 1: Where was her body found? She was found in Oklahoma.

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Speaker 1: Don't they have the death penalty?

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Speaker 4: They do have.

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Speaker 1: I missed something. Why is he still alive?

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Speaker 2: They didn't have the death penalty when he confessed.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's it, that's it, Cheryl, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, he got the death penalty and then for

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Speaker 1: the next forty years we have to listen to his bs.

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Speaker 1: It's because he's not dead, kills all those people. And look,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying I'm pro or con death penalty. I'm

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Speaker 1: not getting I'm not chasing that ball. What I'm saying

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Speaker 1: is he has all this knowledge about all these victims.

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Speaker 1: He could put their families to peace. But he's not.

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Speaker 1: If this were some other jurisdiction, he would have already

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Speaker 1: had the death penalty. That said, in that window when

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Speaker 1: he was prosecuted the like Charles Manson, the death penalty

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Speaker 1: was either overruled or there was a moratorium. It was

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Speaker 1: overruled for a period of years. Now it's back. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this girl, Cynthia Kinney. That's why I care about the jurisdiction,

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Speaker 1: am Bremner.

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Speaker 8: I mean, like with Manson and the girls, they there

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Speaker 8: was a death penalty and then with it thrown out.

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Speaker 8: Let's see Van Houghton just I don't know if you

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Speaker 8: saw it was granted parole. She was the youngest of

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Speaker 8: the Manson followers. But think about it, they'd all gotten death,

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Speaker 8: which they did get, and then of course Scott Peterson

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Speaker 8: was on death row. But the length they wait using

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Speaker 8: California is about twenty five years from the verdict until execution.

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Speaker 8: And we have the firing squad, of course, coming back

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Speaker 8: all over the country. I think Oklahoma, South Carolina, Idaho

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Speaker 8: did the Valley Dabel case, et cetera. There's a moratorium

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Speaker 8: in my state. We had death by hanging and I'm

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Speaker 8: by lethal injection. So it seems to me we're kind

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Speaker 8: of getting a little more stronger with the death penalty.

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Speaker 7: I don't know how people feel about it, but I think.

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Speaker 8: It's getting a lot more, let's say, being put to

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Speaker 8: more use right than it has been. But back in

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Speaker 8: California with Manson, that was pretty crazy.

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Speaker 1: When it's the.

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Speaker 8: Worst killer I think of all time basically walked free

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Speaker 8: from the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about not just Cynthia don Kenney, but Shawna

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Speaker 1: Beth Garby, PJ. Prairie, a missing woman from Kansas. There's

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Speaker 1: Project bell An unsolved murder in Kansas, Oklahoma, case number

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Speaker 1: two unsowed violent crime. There's just so many directions in

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Speaker 1: which we can go, okay, Cheryl McCollum without divulging anything

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Speaker 1: regarding the new evidence that you've seen, and the task

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Speaker 1: force weigh in.

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Speaker 7: Well.

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Speaker 2: The first thing that I always thinks imperative is when

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Speaker 2: somebody gives themselves a nickname, except it to me. When

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Speaker 2: he called himself bind torture kill, that's a freaking confession,

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Speaker 2: straight up the second thing that I think is really

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Speaker 2: important for y'all to understand. When the Sheriff of Osage

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Speaker 2: County asked for a task force we put together, he

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Speaker 2: asked me on a Saturday, and then he said, and

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Speaker 2: you get these people together by Sunday so I can

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Speaker 2: announce it on Monday. And I said absolutely. And the

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Speaker 2: reason I knew it could happen is because I knew

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Speaker 2: when I called Joe Scott Morgan and Susan Constantine and

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Speaker 2: Elena Burroughs from Crime Scene Confidential, and Francy Haiks former prosecutor,

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Speaker 2: and all these unbelievable people, which include Nancy Grace, every

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Speaker 2: single person was going to say yes. Every single person

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Speaker 2: was going to say, whatever I can do, I'm available.

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Speaker 2: I also knew that these folks would do one thing

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Speaker 2: that was going to be the most important part of

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Speaker 2: this entire task force, and that is to have a

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Speaker 2: lot of care and concern and take care of Carrie Rawson.

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Speaker 2: His daughter. Carrie is doing something that is not only unprecedented,

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Speaker 2: think about how difficult this is for her to have

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Speaker 2: her memories, you know, brought to the surface, to meet

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Speaker 2: with all of us, to answer all these questions, to

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Speaker 2: have the media come at her and then come here

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Speaker 2: and expose herself again in a really wrong way to

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Speaker 2: try to help families she's never met. So it's an

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Speaker 2: honor for me to sit with this panel today, to

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Speaker 2: work with this task force, to work with this Sarah's Department,

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Speaker 2: and above all, Kerrie Rawson, I appreciate.

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Speaker 1: All that, but can you weigh in on the crime itself?

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Speaker 2: Okay, don't you love Nancy Grace. You say something, you

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Speaker 2: get a little you know, ovasion as she goes, Well,

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Speaker 2: can you answer my question?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: I can answer your question. So, yes, there are things

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Speaker 2: that we now know that are not made public that

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Speaker 2: are leading us to say, look, there's some dots here

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Speaker 2: that we're going to be able to connect. There's some

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Speaker 2: things that are public. So y'all know there has been

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Speaker 2: a dig at his former home. The sheriff has made

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Speaker 2: public that he did find a ligature, and that's one

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Speaker 2: of the things that Nancy and I are most interested in.

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Speaker 1: That gumment. What does that say? Ligature ligature A pair

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Speaker 1: of pantyhose found near where BTK. You know, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: quit calling him that the dogcatcher killer. That'll irritate him

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Speaker 1: A ligature found. And let's go to our forensic specialist

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan and of course Cheryl jump in, why

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Speaker 1: is the ligature in bind, bind, torture and kill so

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Speaker 1: important and what can you tell us about it?

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Speaker 7: Joe Scott, Most of the time, when you begin to

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Speaker 7: talk about ligatures, it is a method. It's a method

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Speaker 7: to bring about death. And so you're talking about using

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Speaker 7: this in the same manner that you would use your

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Speaker 7: hands to strangle somebody. The ligature is utilized in order

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Speaker 7: to block the airway externally where you're wrapping it, sorry, guys,

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Speaker 7: where you wrap it around the neck, tighten it down

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Speaker 7: and literally acclude the airway externally where you're pressing down

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Speaker 7: on the airway and also on the carotids here that

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Speaker 7: supply the brain with blood. Your brain demands a lot

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Speaker 7: of oxygenated blood, more so than any other organ in

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Speaker 7: the body, and so you're compromising it that way. And

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Speaker 7: it's certainly it certainly a means to torture and terrorize

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Speaker 7: somebody with. And here's the really interesting thing about all

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Speaker 7: of this, Nancy, is that we have a template. We

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Speaker 7: have a template for what he has done previously. Okay,

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Speaker 7: all of that evidence from all those years ago, the knots,

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Speaker 7: the types of items that he utilized, and now just

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Speaker 7: perhaps if they find anything else in the future that

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Speaker 7: can look back to the pre existing template and compare

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Speaker 7: and contrash.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, let me break that down. Ligature.

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Speaker 1: I asked him about ligature. He falls back on what

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Speaker 1: he's comfortable with and starts talking about the brain, the neck,

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Speaker 1: the ligature, the ligature, the ligature. Does it match the

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Speaker 1: ligatures tied in the other killings when the bodies were found?

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Speaker 1: Is the same square knot? And another thing, I guess

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Speaker 1: you've all taken out the trash, right, okay, and you

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Speaker 1: get the big trash and the bag, and you get

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Speaker 1: the little yellow ties and you tie them. When you

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Speaker 1: tie that, think of the repository of DNA, of epifilial

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Speaker 1: cells you are leaving. When you tie something. Think about

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Speaker 1: the ligature, What, if anything can it proof? Is it

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Speaker 1: a similar transaction? Do I see the same type of tie?

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Speaker 1: My children, both John, David and Lucy are this close

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Speaker 1: to eagle scout. You know how many not sweeve tiede

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Speaker 1: And they're all different. When I tie my shoe, I

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Speaker 1: do it a certain way. My daughter out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: I didn't teach you this does. Bunny ears two of

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Speaker 1: them and then she does something else. Everybody has their

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Speaker 1: thing ligature. What can I learn from the ligature? Number one?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 1: Nicole Parton? Was it panty hose? Panty hose? Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 1: tell them what we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: It was the panty hose ligature that was found on

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Speaker 4: his property on the latest dig.

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Speaker 1: For his former property. His house was folware. Was it

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Speaker 1: buried in Kansas? Buried, buried, buried in the dirt. Why

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Speaker 1: would you bury a pair of panty hose in a ligature?

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Speaker 1: Well maybe if it's the backyard of a serial killer,

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Speaker 1: like Nicole Parton is telling us, it may be very

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Speaker 1: significant and ps. Everything Joe Scott Morgan said was correct.

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Speaker 1: It just wasn't about the ligature. It was about the

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Speaker 1: neck and the brain. So if you have anything relevant

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Speaker 1: to say, Joe Scott, this would be the time because

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Speaker 1: once Max starts is.

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Speaker 7: Over, well, I gotta tell you.

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Speaker 1: He's holding it in. He's holding it in here it comes.

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Speaker 7: I do know this about BTK dog catcher killer, his nomdagere.

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Speaker 7: I know that he had a secret hiding place in

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Speaker 7: his home where he kept all manner of items that

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Speaker 7: were there. And yes, if there were things he would

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Speaker 7: go back to fantasize with, perhaps because he had a

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Speaker 7: rich fantasy life. Maybe bindings we're in there, and to

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Speaker 7: have the specificity of a particular knot that he would tie,

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Speaker 7: and he would tie it over and over and over again.

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Speaker 7: And also the material that has used, Nancy, is it

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Speaker 7: a rope as opposed to a panty hose? Is it

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Speaker 7: a belt opposed to something else that can be utilized?

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Speaker 7: All of it goes back to a specific and these

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Speaker 7: are his tools, all right. It goes back to a

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Speaker 7: specific tool that is his choice. And what you're going

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Speaker 7: to look for are going to be patterns that are developing.

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Speaker 7: What did they recover off those bodies and what do

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Speaker 7: they recover off the scene? That's why I'm fascinated by

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Speaker 7: this item that they found out there. Was it actually tied?

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Speaker 7: And what was the style of the knot?

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Speaker 1: Oh? You know what, you's go a great thought, you said,

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Speaker 1: rope versus panty hose? I wonder, and I'm sure the

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Speaker 1: answer is out there. Did he use panty hose every time?

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Speaker 1: He in some manner? I don't think he did, But

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Speaker 1: did he ever use panta.

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Speaker 6: I think he used in a many cases whatever was available.

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Speaker 1: You're right.

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Speaker 6: He would grab whatever was there, telephone wires and type.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you're right, you're right, Karen Stark, Okay, Ryl mccoum.

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Speaker 1: I was just trying to make a connection between the

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Speaker 1: pantyhose and other ligatures and other killings and other binding.

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Speaker 2: He absolutely used panty hose in more than one case.

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Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that.

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Speaker 1: I bet you if I dug up your backyard, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't find a ligature pair of panty hose.

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Speaker 2: That's a whole nother podcast, y'all. But what was fascinating

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Speaker 2: to me about this case. If you watched the sheriff

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Speaker 2: when he came on TV, he held that ligature up.

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Speaker 2: He did that on purpose. Dennis Raider watches TV. He's

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Speaker 2: watching and the sheriff knew it. So he's talking directly

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Speaker 2: to him, and he wanted him to know a couple

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Speaker 2: of things. We found your heidie hole. We found this ligature,

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Speaker 2: and to Nancy's points, she's absolutely right. In most scenes

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Speaker 2: he I'm tied at least five different knots, So that

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Speaker 2: ligature is going to be crucial intelligence for us to understand.

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Speaker 2: Is this tithe the exact same way. It's about this

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Speaker 2: big enough for a wrist or an ankle.

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Speaker 1: That's part of his mo Oh, I like that? When

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Speaker 1: I say I like it, of course I don't like it.

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Speaker 1: I find it probative?

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Speaker 2: Correct?

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Speaker 1: Can it prove something? Because frankly, nothing else matters after

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Speaker 1: you go through law school and try a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: and Bremner everything is what does it prove? I was

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Speaker 1: asked the other day do you believe in mediums? And

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Speaker 1: I said, as far as I'm concerned, no, because I

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Speaker 1: can't put it in front of a jury. Unless I

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Speaker 1: can put it in front of a jury, how is

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Speaker 1: it helping me advance the case? She's absolutely right. And

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Speaker 1: Jackie just sent me a text, and you're right, Jackie.

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Speaker 1: May we could look at the ligature and compare it

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Speaker 1: to the pictures that that idiot took himself of the

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Speaker 1: crime scene and any other photos that were taken by

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Speaker 1: police as they processed a scene, and compare that ligature.

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Speaker 1: What about that?

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Speaker 2: You're right, jack no question. And we know that not

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Speaker 2: only did he use pantyhose, he used his own belt.

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Speaker 2: And again you see these patterns, you hear Nancy and

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Speaker 2: I talk all the time. Patterns matter. She'll say, if

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Speaker 2: you want to know about a racehorse, look at his

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Speaker 2: track record. It's the same thing. You've got somebody who

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Speaker 2: took victim's clothing and recreated those scenes and made polaroid

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Speaker 2: pictures of himself in the position of the victim. He

431
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: could not know that unless he was at that scene.

432
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: Okay. An Bremner, who has tried so many cases, including homicides,

433
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: jump in.

434
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 8: I'm in a homicide trial right now. I go back

435
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 8: in on Monday. I'm defending a police officer. There's three

436
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 8: officers charged in a case where they shouldn't be. It's

437
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 8: a political case. But evidence, like Nancy said, is so important.

438
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 8: What can you prove, what can he get in front

439
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 8: of a jury, what's going to really pull up their heartstrings?

440
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 8: What's going to make them connect with your client or

441
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 8: your case. I mean, Nancy's a wonderful prosecutor, and what

442
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 8: she's done best as a prosecutor is like she does here,

443
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 8: connect with people, humanized witnesses, make sure that the jury

444
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 8: feels the case and will go your way. And the

445
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 8: fact that you've got the best story of what happened

446
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 8: and the fact that it's true. It's got to be true.

447
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 8: Everything has to ring true. And so I've learned a

448
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 8: ton from Nancy over the years. We all love her,

449
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 8: but I'm just so grateful I've learned from her and

450
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 8: try to trying a case from the heart.

451
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: So we love Nancy. Thank you. Just try to think

452
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: about how we're going to connect these people. Karen Starker,

453
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in what you say about his psychology

454
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: and his psychopathy because there's so many things you can predict. Right,

455
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: here's an example. Let's go back to Scott Peterson, because

456
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: he's such a rich example. He would go back to

457
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: the scene and look out over San Francisco Bay. What

458
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: was he looking for Lacy's body to pop up? Brian Coburger,

459
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: who is now facing trial for the murder of four

460
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: beautiful University Idaho students, some of them in their sleep,

461
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: just slaughter, slaughter. That next morning when police were all

462
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: there there, it goes Coburger's white Elantra. He's just circling

463
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: back to look at his handiwork. And it happens all

464
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: the time. Why, I'm not sure, what is that? Why

465
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: do people go back.

466
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 6: To their ego? Nancy they're very proud. Let's think about

467
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,719
Speaker 6: bt K. I mean, he was a set with the

468
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 6: newspapers because they were not covering his story. And he

469
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 6: actually said, I should be known by now. How many

470
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 6: people do I have to kill in order for you

471
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 6: to pay attention to me? He gave himself that moniker

472
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 6: the BTK. He was all about his narcissism, his accomplishments.

473
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 6: He planned these out like they were movies. He directed

474
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 6: them in his mind, and he planned them for months.

475
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 6: He was very methodical, and then he would go back.

476
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 6: He would commit the crimes. Sometimes he would actually even

477
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 6: go back to the scene he thought he left something.

478
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 6: He took incredible risks.

479
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, we are taking your questions?

480
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: Can Jackie? Can we take questions now? Okay, so let's

481
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: see where's the beautiful lady taking questions? And John Torrensia?

482
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: Were you still here skulking about John? Because I expect

483
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: you to have a question. There you go, right there,

484
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: here's a question.

485
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 9: My first question was how you the victim or.

486
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: Teacher? And question was and I as.

487
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: There, I really be honored. This is how I did

488
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: do it. Since a purp can look like anything, they

489
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: can be white, they can be as they can be Asian,

490
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: they can be black. It can be a man, it

491
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: can be a woman. They may have on a fake

492
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: police outfit. They could be a guy dressed up like

493
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: the Meta reader. It could be anybody. It could be

494
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: your teacher. I'm not gonna tell them that. I think

495
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: I was the one that was the most scared. Did

496
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: I ever tell anybody about when John David went missing

497
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: and the Babies Are a superstore? Quit shaking your head,

498
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. I can see you believe it or not. Okay,

499
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I was looking because some suck herm

500
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: hum made me feel bad because she made her own

501
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: organic sunscreen. This is real. I'm not making this up.

502
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: This happened. I'm like, she said, all that stuff you

503
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: can puting on the twins gives some cancer. I'm like,

504
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: So I go to the Babies Are a superstore and

505
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: they've got shelves Florida ceiling practically, and I'm way down

506
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: at the bottom looking for organic sunscreen. I turned around

507
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: and there's Lucy. But know John David. All I could

508
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: think about is my friend John Walsh an Adam who

509
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: goes missing? Was it in a sears like two rows

510
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: over from his mom. Reeve at what happened. I put

511
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: Lucy under my arm like a football and started running

512
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: and screaming, look the doors. That is missing. Okay I

513
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 1: found him. He was hiding two rows away. But those

514
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: were the worst moments of my life. So you asked me,

515
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: how do you handle being a victim? I don't. It's

516
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: affected everything about me. I've been told my personality is

517
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: completely different than what it used to be. I don't

518
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: even remember that girl. I don't know what that even

519
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: was anymore. But you know what, here, I am right

520
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: now making the best of it. Bam. Okay.

521
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 3: Question okay, does sexual trauma.

522
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 9: Change do you as you should shoot?

523
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: Okay? Number one. I believe that sensitivity training is just

524
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: as important as training at the firing range, because think

525
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: about it. Heck, yes, I want the cop to be

526
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: able to shoot the bad guy if he's getting away.

527
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: But how many more times a month, a week, a

528
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: year will a cop interview a crime victim than he

529
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 1: will shoot a fleeing felon About a million times more?

530
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 3: So.

531
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: Yes, I remember when I was interviewed before Keith's murder trial.

532
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: I still remember it, not really in a good way.

533
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 1: But it was the best that they knew how to do.

534
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying I'm absolutely not saying that cops

535
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: are bad. I'm saying cops are good, but yes, you

536
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: need training to handle that. For instance, when I would

537
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: interview child victims for trial, I would say, well, I

538
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,839
Speaker 1: have to prove when where is it in my jurisdiction?

539
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:50,360
Speaker 1: Is a statute past?

540
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 5: All?

541
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,479
Speaker 1: That is important? And the chaw may not be able

542
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: to tell me it was April to fifteenth, blah blah

543
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: blah Okay, So I would say something like, well where

544
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,959
Speaker 1: the Christmas decorations up? Did you have a Christmas tree up?

545
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: Or was it around your birthday? Or was it hot outside?

546
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: Or just a million ways to unlock the truth of

547
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: their story, and that took I never didn't have training,

548
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: but it took some doing to figure out their language.

549
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: So yes, sensitivity training and number two, how help I

550
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: can tell you this much? My twins and I and

551
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 1: my husband went to the Butterfly House at Callaway Gardens. Okay.

552
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: At the Butterfly House, we also went to lunch at

553
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: the Oyster Box, which is I think in Pine Mountain, Georgia,

554
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 1: and there on the bathroom stall window, I mean door

555
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: was a flyer from missing I took a picture of

556
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: it and we helped that family get answers the missing person.

557
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: Anything you can do a flyer, a tip line, we

558
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: jack what's our tips at crimeonline dot com. Any story,

559
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: anything you need help. I look at Twitter all the time,

560
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 1: not because I want to read all the ugly things

561
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: on there, like your men, you're off, oh blah blah blah.

562
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: I'm looking for cases, unsolved cases, people that need help.

563
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: You would be surprised, don't you guys agree? How we

564
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: find out about cases that need our help and not

565
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: just US police as well. And believe me, you know

566
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: what politicians do care about getting re elected. That's what

567
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: they care about. And if you contact them and talk

568
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: about your grassroots effort to get them thrown out, if

569
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: they don't pay attention to XYZ, that's the only way

570
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: they're gonna listen, do it. You guys, have any ideas?

571
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: You're shaking your head, yes, jump in.

572
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: I agree with you one hundred percent.

573
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: No, no, no, not what she said. Your own idea

574
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: for once? Come on, have your own original idea. How

575
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: can they help? They want to out?

576
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: Look at this room I'm gonna tell you straight up,

577
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: you're already doing it. You're here, you're meeting people. I've

578
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: seen so many people taking pictures of the caravan car

579
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 2: and you're posting it. You're talking to other family members,

580
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: Gabby Petito's families here. I've seen y'all taking pictures and

581
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: you're posting it. So you're helping. Nancy started in domestic violence.

582
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 2: I started at the Rape Crisis Center. So those grassroots,

583
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: those base level, you know, trainings and volunteer efforts, that's

584
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 2: the most important thing. But y'all being here, y'all talking

585
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 2: about it, keeping these cases alive are the most important things.

586
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: Nancy and I used to, you know, train at the

587
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: police Academy together. And I remember one time when we

588
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 2: were having a real hard time getting the young officers

589
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 2: to understand just because somebody says something about your mama,

590
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: you can't hit her. And they were like, Mac, you're

591
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 2: telling me if somebody says my mama is blank, I

592
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 2: can't hit her. And I said, not legally, you can't

593
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: do it.

594
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: And this not unless you want to be on the

595
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray seanas.

596
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: You want to be on the Nancy Gray Show. So

597
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: I finally told him, I said.

598
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: Look, it is not in a nutshell, Cheryl.

599
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: There's the nutshell.

600
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: I said.

601
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: It is not illegal to be a bitch. It is

602
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: illegal to hit one. Thank you. I'm here all week.

603
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 1: Wrists shot right there, Stop calling.

604
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 10: Than sheerk wants a new hole full the glorifial And second,

605
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 10: yeah and wind held all.

606
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: That is a really good idea. You know, he tortured

607
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: those animals, you know he did?

608
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 2: Can I jump in tell him?

609
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: Tom Karen Starr.

610
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 6: He admits to it, Nancy. He actually he self reports

611
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 6: that he tortured animals, and they do believe that he

612
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 6: did that as a dog catcher, that he actually euthanized

613
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 6: dogs that didn't need to be killed. And I wouldn't

614
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 6: put him past it. He actually exercised his fingers, imagine

615
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 6: that with a ball, so he could be strong enough

616
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 6: to strangle. So yeah, I would think that he would

617
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 6: do that with dogs.

618
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wanted to tell you A couple of

619
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: us on the panel met his daughter. She's a man

620
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: also in case you're wondering, he was a crap dad

621
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: and husband, aggressive, abusive, awful as you might imagine, horrible, horrible. Yes, yes,

622
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 1: I said her name at the get go, there's several.

623
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: There's Cynthia don Kenny. Shaunabeth Garber was the second name

624
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: I mentioned. PJ. Prairie from Hayes, Kansas, an unsolved murder

625
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: in Kansas that's being referred to as Project Bell and

626
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: Oklahoma case number two. And I believe these are just

627
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: the tip of the iceberg. So yes, and her case,

628
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 1: in my mind you're talking about Shawna's case is very strong, Nicole.

629
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,040
Speaker 1: Do you know about Shawna's Kay.

630
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do.

631
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: Hit it.

632
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 4: So she was discovered behind a barn, and again we

633
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 4: have sketches of these barns in Raider's journal.

634
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: She was discovered in Missouri.

635
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 4: She's a young lady who didn't receive a lot of

636
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 4: coverage because she had aged out of foster care. She

637
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 4: didn't have a family, so she was kind of an

638
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 4: unknown young lady. But she was found severely sexually abused,

639
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 4: bound in five ways by five different ligatures. And there's

640
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 4: a strong connection, it's believed, between Shaunabeth Garber and Dennis Rader.

641
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 1: Don't think that we forgot about her, But I'm glad

642
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 1: you mentioned her because I started about Cindy and then

643
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 1: never made it beyond that. So you're absolutely right. And

644
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: I don't like when we just say the victims they

645
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: have names. Let's just say one more time, Cindy, Don Kenny, Shawna,

646
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Speaker 1: Beth Garber, PJ Prairie Project, Bell, and the Oklahoma case

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Speaker 1: number two. I mean really, In Shawna's case, he draws

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Speaker 1: pictures of the barn where her remains are found behind

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Speaker 1: that that's not a coincidence. Thank you,