1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan, gliding over city streets, 2 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: hitting potholes. You're kind of aware of what's going on, 3 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: at least that's what you're gonna tell the police later. 4 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: You're drifting in and out of consciousness, sleepy, holding a gun, 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden there's a bright flash, a 6 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: loud noise, and the interior of the cab against smell 7 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: like burned gunpowder. Next thing you know, you hear a 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: scream and your wife she's bleeding out in the front seat. Today, 9 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the murder Diane mcab I'm Joseph 10 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags Back again. With me? 11 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories. Would Nancy 12 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: Grace Jackie tell me about the death of Diane McK iver, Joe, 13 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: There was never any question that Text mc ivor shot 14 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: his wife. The question was always whether he meant to 15 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: or not. Text mcgiver was with his wife and a 16 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: family friend in a vehicle. The three were headed home 17 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: from the mcgiver's horse farm, which is about seventy east 18 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: of Atlanta. Diane mcgiver was in the front passenger seat. 19 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: Text mc iver was in the backseat behind his wife. 20 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: The family friend was driving. According to mc iver, the 21 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: car got off of the Interstate going through downtown Atlanta, 22 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: and he asked his wife, Diane to hand him his 23 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: gun from the middle console between the front seats. She did, 24 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: He had the gun in his hand, and that's when 25 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: he said the gun accidentally went off. Diane mcgiver was 26 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: shot through the seat and the bullet lodged in her back. Joe, 27 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: this is an interesting place to be shot. It's an 28 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: interesting situation of how she was shot. Where do we start, Well, 29 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: it all goes to relationship, and I'm not talking about 30 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: a marital relationship. I'm talking about a physical relationship between 31 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: the end of that muzzle and this fatal injury that 32 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: Diane sustained in this vehicle. There's a lot of a 33 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: lot of unanswered questions in this case. You know, text 34 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: had had mentioned that he was riding in the back 35 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: seat when he became aware. According to him, that uh, 36 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: when they had gotten off of the Interstate and they 37 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: were riding down surface roads, he had an awareness, at 38 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: least in his mind, that that there were people outside 39 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: the vehicle. And that's really you know, all we can 40 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: kind of surmise from this, there's one indication that may 41 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: have been homeless folks. But anyway, he he became fearful 42 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: and he you know, you had mentioned that he had 43 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: requested this weapon, and the weapon was being carried in 44 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: the center console of the vehicle. Text it turns out 45 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: owns tons of weapons, but this is the weapon that 46 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: he had with him. It was being kept in the 47 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: center console. So he asked his wife, Uh, you know, 48 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: can you give me the weapon? Diane handed him a weapon. 49 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: It turned out that the weapon that she handed him 50 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: was kind of unique. Uh. They kept it in the 51 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: center console of the vehicle, and it's it's a Smith 52 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: and Wesson revolver. But what makes it unique is that 53 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's actually what's referred to as an air weight. 54 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: It means that the frame is lighter than normal and 55 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: it's uniquely constructed. And what I mean by that is 56 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: that it has what's referred to as a shrouded external hammer. 57 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: And if you'll just imagine kind of a hood that 58 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: covers the hammer, which is the metallic body on the 59 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: back side of the revolver that you pull back in 60 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: order to arm the weapon, all right, and so it's 61 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: protected that way. And this weapon is so light and 62 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: kind of compact, it's not really meant for accuracy. It's 63 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: meant for self defense. And you can actually carry the 64 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: thing in your pocket like your front pocket or in 65 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: a purse. Is easily concealed. And the reason the hammer 66 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: itself is actually shrouded is so that if you carry 67 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: it in a pocket, um that when you pull this 68 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: weapon out, the hammer itself is not going to catch 69 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: on any cloth. So it's kind of protected. That makes 70 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 1: it highly concealable. And of course in this case, they 71 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: were keeping it in the center console. When you say shrouded, Joe, 72 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,679 Speaker 1: you're not talking about something that's coming over the hammer. 73 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: You mean that it is recessed in between two metal 74 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: pieces like a tract where the normal hammer would be. 75 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: You're not talking about something coming over the top of 76 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: the hammer to keep it from being fired. Right, Yeah, 77 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,160 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. It's kind of recessed now. And if 78 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: if folks will just think back to safe instance, old 79 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: Western movies they've seen with you know, some uh cowboy 80 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: hero on uh you know in the movies that's carrying 81 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: a cult peacemaker and it's got the big hammer on 82 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: the back of it where you put your thumb on 83 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: it and you pull it back. Um, it's not like 84 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: that there is a hammer, but it's it's it's flush 85 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: if you will. It's flushed with this kind of shroud 86 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: that we're talking about, so that when you go to 87 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: remove it, say, for instance, from your waistband or from 88 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: your pocket, it's not gonna hang up. It's not gonna 89 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: prevent you from what they call clearing, like when you 90 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: clear the weapon from where it's holstered, um, and you 91 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,559 Speaker 1: can get it up and fire the weapon. And again, 92 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: this this weapon is very tiny, Jackie. As tiny is 93 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: not really necessarily accurate tiny. I'm not talking about like 94 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: from a microscopic sense, but it's smaller than most. As 95 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, if you weren't really cute in 96 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: on it, you weren't really paying attention. Uh. You know, 97 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: a grown man uh could potentially take that weapon and 98 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: hold it in his palm palms hang end, and you're 99 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: not gonna be able necessarily to see it or fully 100 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: appreciate it. So it's very non threatening and that's what 101 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 1: makes it so concealable. So texts had this weapon in 102 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 1: the vehicle with him and it fires what's called a 103 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,679 Speaker 1: thirty eight special round, and he had the weapon itself 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: was actually loaded UM with what's referred to as hollow 105 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: point ammunition in addition to a fully jacketed round, which 106 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: means the projectile itself UM is fully encompassed in a 107 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: copper jacket which protects the bullet itself. So it's the 108 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: round they believe that Diane was shot with was probably 109 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: one of those, because it didn't mushroom like you think 110 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: of a hollow point round mushrooming and uh, you know, 111 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: going going through the seat, which it did, and it 112 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: kind of shredding tissue on the other side. It didn't 113 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: happen like that. So, Joe, this weapon was, as you said, 114 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: a thirty eight special revolver. Explained to me what that means. 115 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: Do you have to cock the gun before you can 116 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: fire it? Yeah, this is you can fire this and 117 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: what's referred to as single action status, which, as you 118 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: mentioned rightly, where you take the hammer and you literally 119 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: pull it back, Okay, and this is key in this case. 120 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: Now you pull it back and that's called single single 121 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: action mode where if you pull the hammer back, it 122 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: only takes about and this is what fires. Examiners say 123 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: about two pounds of finger pressure in order to actuate 124 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: that trigger. That means to get that hammer slamming forward 125 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: onto that primer, that primer on that bullet to engage 126 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: the bullet sent it out of the barrel, and of 127 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: course one wind up hitting the target. Now you can 128 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: fire it in single action, but you can also fire 129 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: in double action. Now double action means that in order 130 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: to actuate the weapon, you have to pull the trigger. 131 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: And while you're pulling the trigger, it mechanically makes that 132 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: hammer go back. You're not you're not manipulating it with 133 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: your thumb. You're making it go back by pulling that trigger. 134 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: This is a bit more difficult. The ballistics experts that 135 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: did the test on the weapons say that it would 136 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: take twelve pounds of pressure in order to make that happen. 137 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: For folks that don't know how this works, if you 138 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: go to a ballistics lab, this is generally housed inside 139 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: the crime lab, they'll have weights. They'll take the weapon 140 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: in question and they will hang the weapon in an 141 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: inverted position. And if you will imagine, they have graduated 142 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: weights that they put on a hook and they will 143 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: hang them on the trigger This is kind of cool 144 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: when you think about it, and depended upon the weight 145 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: that they apply to that hook, it gives you kind 146 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: of a rough estimate of the pounds of pressure it 147 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: takes to pull that trigger. So that's what they would 148 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: have done with this weapon. They would fire it in test. 149 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: Fired in single action mode where they pull the hammer back, 150 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: hang that hook on there, and they put roughly two 151 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: pounds of weight on the thing in that's what took 152 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: to actually actuate the weapon. And then they did it 153 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 1: in double action where they hung the weapon again, they 154 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: put the hook on there, and then they put twelve 155 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: pounds of weight on It's kind of simple, simple science, 156 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: but it it's highly effective. But what does that actually mean? Joe? 157 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:18,719 Speaker 1: You can tell me all day long that it took 158 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: two pounds of pressure or twelve pounds of pressure. It 159 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: really doesn't come into focus for me. So two pounds 160 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: of pressure, it is that like pulling back a rubber 161 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: van or or in twelve pounds of pressure? I mean, 162 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 1: is that like lifting a barbell? Uh? Well, okay, I'll 163 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: put it to you this way. Um, if you were saying, 164 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: for instance, going to press a button in an elevator, 165 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: pressing a button and an elevator. Of course, a lot 166 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: of that's gonna be depended upon the button, high structure, 167 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: and elevator. But if you press the button in the elevator, 168 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: say to go to an upper floor, more than likely 169 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: it's going to take just under about two pounds of 170 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: pressure in order to actuate that button. Okay, so maybe 171 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: a pound pound and a half of pressure directly applied 172 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: to that button. So you take that and increase it 173 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: by that factor and get it up to about two pounds, 174 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: and depend upon how much vigor you put into that. 175 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: How meany times we've been on the elevator and we 176 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: press the button over and over and over again. Every 177 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: time you press it, you're getting more forceful, so you're 178 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: applying more direct pressure and more poundage. Um. Compare that 179 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: to what it probably feels like to put twelve pounds 180 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: of pressure from your index finger from your index finger 181 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: to that trigger to pull it back, and that gives 182 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: you an idea to how much it takes to actuate 183 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: the entire cycle of pulling the trigger, making a hammer 184 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: mechanically go back, and then having it slam forward. That 185 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: takes a lot of weight in order to do that. Okay, 186 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: takes a lot of weight. So if we have hung 187 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: this gun upside down and or or putting weights on 188 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: it to make it fire, you're talking about at least 189 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: two five pound bags of sugar. That's an excellent way 190 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: to put it, Jackie, because that's something most people can 191 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: identify with, you know, and you you hold that weight 192 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,479 Speaker 1: in your hands, you know, just when you're in supermarket 193 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: and whatnot, and you can get a sense for how 194 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: much weight that is twelve pounds um. And so you 195 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: have to have what I like to refer to, and 196 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: you know what Nancy Grace likes to talk about. Also 197 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: when it comes to criminal cases, it would seem that 198 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: you would have to have specific intent in order to 199 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: apply that kind of pressure. At least a reasonable person 200 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: would think that if this is in single action mode, 201 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: then that would mean that he would have had to 202 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: have cocked the hammer. How much pressure does it take 203 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: to cock the hammers? I mean, it's not something he 204 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: could have done without intention. Yeah, you're you're right about that. 205 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: You would have to specifically intend to place your thumb. 206 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: And that's generally how it happens. If you're right hand, 207 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: you take your right thumb place it on that shrouded hammer, 208 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: and it's got little ridges on the back of it 209 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: so that you can kind of grip it even if 210 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: the wet and you apply that direct pressure, pulled back 211 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: that hammer until it clicks, you know, click into place. Now, 212 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: all you have to do at this point in time 213 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: this place your finger on that trigger and apply two 214 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: pounds of pressure. But this is here, here's the trick. 215 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: You have to be intending to cock this weapon in 216 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: the first place. You have to have the intent to 217 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: work that hammer where your thumb to get it back 218 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: into place, and then you would apply the two pounds 219 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: of pressure to the trigger in order to fire or 220 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: make it fire in single action mode. That's one of 221 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: the questions I think that a lot of people have 222 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: about uh, Diane mc iver's death. Is they they're trying 223 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: to think about, well, it was their intent involved here 224 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: or was this just a horrible accident that occurred. So 225 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: you could look at it as he said, he asked 226 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: for the gun from the console because he was worried 227 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: about people outside the vehicle. So the argument could have 228 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: been made that he cocked the gun because he was 229 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: actually fearful about what was going on. And then as 230 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: a reflex, could have pulled the trigger because it only 231 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: takes two pounds of pressure. Yeah, yeah, you could, You 232 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: could put that forward, but but you know I have 233 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: I have trouble with that. And this is why, as 234 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: it turns out, Tex mc iver he owned tons of weapons, Jackie. 235 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: There there's actually evidence that's been put forward that Tex 236 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: mcgever had his on shooting range that he owned on 237 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: a rural piece of property. Uh, this pretty good distance 238 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: away from Atlanta, that he would go and fire at regularly. 239 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: He would practice with his weapons, and he had quite 240 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: a few of them. And here's the problem. Why would 241 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: a person that was so well versed in weapons and 242 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: understands form and function, why would that individual actually feel 243 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: the need to go ahead and in advance cock a weapon. 244 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: Why why would he have to do that because he 245 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: that that's some thing that's a person that has less 246 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: experience with weapons would do perhaps that or maybe they're 247 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: physically handicapped in some way and they want to be 248 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: ready to do it, But there's no indication of that here. Generally, 249 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: firing in double action for somebody that's familiar with a 250 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: weapon applying, remember that twelve pounds of pressure that's something 251 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: that you would expect a person to do, that would 252 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: be their normal course of action relative to bringing this 253 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: weapon into play and bringing it into action at that 254 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: point in time if he has fear for his life, 255 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: because he's not gonna stop and recocked the weapon every 256 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: time if someone is advancing on him, he'll continue to 257 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: fire it and double action. So that's one of the 258 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: issues I've had a problem with is the thought that 259 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: he's sitting back there with all of his knowledge of weapons, 260 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: and he's sitting back there, Jackie, with a cocked weapon 261 00:14:49,800 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: literally in proximity to the back of his wife's body. Jackie. 262 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: You know, the night that Diane mcgever was shot, they 263 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: were in the middle of a surface street. They were 264 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: they were on a road in Atlanta. They weren't on 265 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: a highway. You have to make a choice at that 266 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: point in time, don't you about where you're gonna go 267 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: for treatment? You have an awareness, you wiseman shot, what's 268 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: gonna do? What what happened with Diane? So again, Diane 269 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: mcgiver was shot once in the back and the bullet 270 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: went through the seat into her body. When the Ford 271 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: expedition arrived at Emery carrying Diane mcgiver. Text mcgiver jumped out, 272 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: calling for help. There was a valet there, but the 273 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: valets were not allowed to touch the patients. The diver 274 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: began trying to get his wife out of the vehicle, 275 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: and again the valets are not allowed to touch patients. 276 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: The emergency nurse that free did Diane McIvor that night 277 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: said that once Diane mcgivor arrived that everyone was scrambling. 278 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: She said, staff was in full critical care life saving mode. 279 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: So this was obviously considered life threatening. Well, you know, 280 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: that's the problem with gunshot wounds, Jackie, is that you 281 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: don't really know what you have until you get this 282 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: individual into emergency surgery. What I do know is that 283 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: when she showed up, and remember she was conveyed to 284 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: the hospital in a private vehicle, the vehicle that she 285 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: had just been shot in. And so it's not like 286 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: there was an ambulance crew there that's hanging fluids on 287 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: or anything like that. They drove her straight to the 288 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: emergency room ramp and there's there's actually, uh, there's kind 289 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: of this classic freeze frame uh image that was used 290 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: at trial with Text mc iver escorting his wife into 291 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: the hospital and when they showed up on the ramp. Uh, 292 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: you don't really know what's going on internally until you know, 293 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: put it very bluntly, until you have that individual open 294 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: on the table. And when they did open her up, 295 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: they were able to determine that her insights were just 296 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: absolutely erect. She wound up in surgery, uh losing her 297 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: left kidney, She lost her spleen, her uh, the kind 298 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: of the downward portion of her diaphragm was greatly injured. 299 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: And believe it or not, I know people think, well, 300 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, you lose a kidney, that's certainly lethal and 301 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: yet can be if you're not treated for you lose 302 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: a spleen, Yeah, you're gonna bleed a lot. But when 303 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: you get shot and that bullet penetrate your diaphragm, let 304 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: me tell you what happens there. Diaphragm causes or it 305 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: enables you to breathe, all right, to push air out. 306 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: We all know how that works. Well, it's a large 307 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: dome of muscle, and when it is compromised in any way, 308 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 1: that's going to create a problem for you. It's going 309 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: to create a serious problem your ability to uh to 310 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: take in oxygen process the oxygen and then push out 311 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: the carbon dioxide, and that's one of the things that 312 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: they're you know, they're having a fight with. So she's 313 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: losing blood internally from these damaged organs, and then on 314 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: top of it, they're having to take care of her 315 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: and then her lungs were never injured by the bullet itself. 316 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: It's it's that mechanism within our body that allows us 317 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: and helps us to breathe that's greatly damaged. So they're 318 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: having to, you know, fight this fight to try to 319 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: keep her alive on a couple of fronts. But as 320 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: to the injury itself, it folks at home will kind 321 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: of uh, you know, you have several layers to your 322 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: spinal column. You know, you think about the essentially the 323 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: cervical which comprises your neck and sort of certainly supports 324 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: supports our head, and then you have a large grouping 325 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: of vertebral bodies that make up what's referred to as 326 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: the thoracic verba, and then below that you have what's 327 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 1: called the lumbar spine. But we need to focus on 328 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: the thoracic vertebra, and those kind of go down right 329 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: through the heart of our body, if you will. And 330 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: it was actually her twelfth thoracic vertebra um that got clipped. 331 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: And when you look at a vertebra, it's kind of 332 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: oddly shaped, its bulky and center, but it's got these 333 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: kind of prominences on both sides. They almost look like 334 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: little wings. Well, the left wing was clipped off and 335 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: it passed through that and eventually on the track, and 336 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: this is an indication of the trajectory which we can 337 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: talk about. The round actually passed through our by the 338 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: twelfth thoracic vertebra and clipped her left rib as well. 339 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: So it's going from above to below, and that's very important. 340 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: And it's on this downward track, and as it passes 341 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: through here, it's cutting a swath through these these organs 342 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: and eventually exits out of the front of her body. 343 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: So she's got these two external injuries. She's got an 344 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: entrance wound and then she's got the exit wound on 345 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: front of her body. So she's got the bullet traveled 346 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: from right to left, from back to front, and in 347 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: a downward path. A vertebrate was injured, a rib was injured, 348 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: It passed through her diaphragm, her kidney was removed, her 349 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: spleen removed, she suffered an injury to her stomach, and 350 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: she was bleeding around her pancreas. All of this damage, 351 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: and you mentioned that she was bleeding internally obviously, so 352 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: which was worse the bleeding or the actual damage to 353 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: each of those body parts? You know, those three must 354 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: be considered first because they have their own vascular supply. 355 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: These organs just don't. They just don't sit in there. 356 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: They have their own blood supply, and they have these tiny, 357 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: tiny little vessels. And the thing about a gunshot wounds, 358 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: it's blasting through these bony prominences as it's going through 359 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: the vertebral body, as it's going through the rib. Guess 360 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: what it creates. It creates um these little bits of 361 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: shards of bone as well. So not only do you 362 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: have the bullet traveling through the body, but you can 363 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: also get these little uh um splinters of bone that 364 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: create these little micro hemorrhages that are all through there. 365 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: Can you imagine how difficult this is if you're a 366 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: trauma surgeon. I'm always amazed by these people because they 367 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: go in. It's intense work. You've got blood coming from 368 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: locations that you you can't anticipate and you think that 369 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: you have all of the bleeding stopped, and all of 370 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: a sudden you have another focal area of hemorrhage show 371 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: showing up. So it's a perfect storm in the fact 372 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: that these organs with all of their little vascular supplies 373 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: are compromised. You're having to go in and kind of 374 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: old term is time off you, you know, you kind 375 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: of coulterize those areas. But in addition to that, what 376 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: are you gonna do about about the diaphragm? We go 377 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: back to that because now the individual there's a high 378 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: probability not gonna be able to breathe without assistance. They're 379 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: gonna have to go on a vent in order to, 380 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: you know, keep them alive. At this point, it's not 381 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: that their lungs aren't healthy, it's not that her heart 382 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: isn't healthy, it's not that her brain is no longer functioning. 383 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: It's the fact that the mechanism that's facilitated by the 384 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: presence of the diaphragm and that action that it's it's 385 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: shot at this point in time, both literally and figuratively. 386 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: And so that's that's a critical that you hit this 387 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: point of critical mass, and that's why Diane mc iver 388 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: actually wound up dying because of this perfect storm. But 389 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, this is a curious thing about it, Jackie. 390 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: It's not like she was shot in what you would 391 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: think is an area of the body that would bring about, say, 392 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: for instance, an instantaneous death. You know, you know what 393 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: area of the body could you facilitate that with if 394 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: you're attempting to kill somebody. Well, obviously she's shot in 395 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: the back of the head. She's going down pretty quickly. 396 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: The fact that she would be shot in the back 397 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: in this particular location, there's no guarantee that all of 398 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: those organs are going to be hit. One of those organs. Uh, 399 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: maybe save the diaphragm, um, the kidney deliver You can 400 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: live without them. I mean you can. There's tons of 401 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: people walk around out there without spleens. I'm sure people 402 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: in our and our audience have had splenactomies. You can 403 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: live without the without the spleen. You can live without 404 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: a kidney. You can function on one kidney. Uh. You 405 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: can have your stomach ripped up, which diamc ivor did 406 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: um and they can repair it and it will be 407 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: fully functional. With that diaphragm and tell you what that's 408 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: that was the lethal blow. But what are the odds 409 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: that you're going to score what in the military they 410 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: would call a kill shot with a thirty eight caliber 411 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: around through a seat, nonetheless, and that you're gonna be 412 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: able to hit all of these all of these uh, 413 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: these organ groups. I think that's a big question that 414 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: I don't know has been completely answered. The damage that 415 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: was done to diamad Iver's body with this thirty eight 416 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: caliber round is certainly significant. But one of the things 417 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: as investigators that we have to look at relative to 418 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: a case like this is uh, certainly range of fire. 419 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: That is the distance and the trajectory, you know, what 420 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: direction was a bullet actually traveling in. And that's going 421 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: to bring everything together so that we can kind of 422 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: piece together what exactly happened in her murder. You read 423 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: my mind, Joe. Two things that jumped out at me 424 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: as we were talking before was the fact that text 425 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: mc iver is sitting directly behind his wife in the 426 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: back seat. If he had been farther away, you know, 427 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: another couple of feet, would we have seen different damage 428 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: to our body. That's an interesting question because what we 429 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: do know is that when you look at the seat, 430 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: there is in fact a hole on the back side 431 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: of the seat which would have been closest to mc ivor, 432 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: and then it exits through the front side of the seat, 433 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: and that's at the point in time where it hits 434 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 1: her body. People need to think about the structure of 435 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: a car seat. It has a framework within it it. 436 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's composed of there will be like maybe a 437 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: small bit of wood in there, but for the most 438 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: part it's metallic. What has kind of captured my imagination 439 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: about this this homicide is the fact that when that 440 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 1: bullet exited and entered Diane's mac Iver's back, it wasn't 441 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: deformed in any way. It was perfect, if you will. 442 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, the emmy that did the 443 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: autopsy on her body stated that when he looked at 444 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: the wound that she sustained that it appeared as though 445 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 1: that the bullet are it's at least possible that the 446 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: bullet did not pass or an intermediate target. Okay, what 447 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: does that mean? An intermediate target? Are you saying it 448 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: didn't hit any of the structure in the in the seat? Yeah, 449 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: And I guess if you take that logic out he 450 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: could be saying, well, it didn't, it didn't. It didn't 451 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,479 Speaker 1: pass through the seat at all. This is what I 452 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: do know. One of the things that we we look for. 453 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: You know, folks are they asked me a lot. You know, 454 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: how can you tell the difference between an entrance when 455 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: and an exit wound? Put it very plainly, unless the 456 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: muzzle of a weapon is in really close proximity to body, 457 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: you're not gonna have any evidence whatsoever, Um, that's going 458 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: to indicate anything other than what I'm about to tell you. 459 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: And that is something that we we refer to as 460 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: as an abrasion ring. So if you understand the nature 461 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: of bullets, bullets that are rifled, that means they spend 462 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: when they coming out of the end of the barrel. 463 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: And in this thirty eight Smith weston Smith and Western, 464 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: it was in fact spending. It's a rifle barrel. It 465 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: creates this tiny little abrasion around the rim of the entrance. 466 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: And you only get this on entrance wounds. Um. And 467 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: if folks will remember when your kidsbody grabs your wrist 468 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: and they twist it in two different directions, you know, 469 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: civil it's to this to one another all the time. 470 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: And you know it really stings. Well, take that up 471 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: another level and you think about how fast this bullet 472 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: is spinning. That's what happens to the skin. It twists 473 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: the skin so that it abraids that area. Well, nothing 474 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: stopped the bullet from spinning, because that abrasion ring exists 475 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 1: on the entrance wound in her back. And I think 476 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: that's what left a lot of people kind of scratching 477 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: their heads about this. How did that happen? Well, obviously, 478 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: when the round passed through the seed, it didn't touch 479 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: any of the structure because the whole when you see 480 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: the whole is very symmetrical. It's it's neat um, it's 481 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: it's it's not deformed like you would think if a 482 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: huncle lead passed through another structure and the bullet deformed 483 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: and you get this real kind of ghastly injury. It 484 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: wasn't like that. It it was intact when it hit 485 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: the body and it created so it was still spinning 486 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: as well. And that brings us to another point here, Um, 487 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: how soon did the police actually get their hands on 488 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: this vehicle to examine it and examine the relationship between 489 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: the front seat and the back seat? Was text actually 490 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: elevated in that back seat above his wife when he 491 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: discharged this weapon. There's no doubt that he discharged the weapon. 492 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: The question is what position was he in when that 493 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: trigger was actuated. Mc iver actually implied that he was 494 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: sitting there with the weapon lying flat in his lap, 495 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: and that the web and discharged when he went over 496 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: a bump and the round traveled forward struck his wife. Well, 497 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: you can't get past the orientation of the bullet, you know, 498 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about from above to below. It's got kind 499 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: of a doward trajectory at this point. My big question 500 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: is how soon did the police get their hands on 501 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: this vehicle, because keep in mind this vehicle is in 502 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: fact a crime scene. This is where a homicide has 503 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: taken place. And that seat, the front seat, as we 504 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: all know, UH, seats can be adjusted, can't they. So 505 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: you can have this electronic elevation of the seat and 506 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: you can have it moved forward and moved back. We 507 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: don't know what happened to the seat. Was it in 508 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: the original position that Diane mc iver was in when 509 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: she was shot, or had it been manipulated in any 510 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: way whatsoever, whether it be intentionally or not intentionally. And 511 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: that's a big ask here, because the relationship between how 512 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: this weapon was fired, how it was discharged, and how 513 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: it passed that round passed through her body is one 514 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: of the big questions that has been and asked, and 515 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: to the court satisfaction, at least it has been answered. 516 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: But I think that there are a lot of people 517 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: who still have questions about the kids. Text mcgiver was 518 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: convicted in the death of his wife. But you were 519 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: talking about the angle, Joe, and all these pictures went 520 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: through my head. For text mc iver to have been 521 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: holding the gun up for the bullet to go downward 522 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: through her body, either he was holding the gun up 523 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: higher around his chest level to give it that downward angle, 524 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: or the seat would have had to have been moved. Yeah, 525 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right, Jackie. And is there a possibility that 526 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: seat could have been elevated in any way? It is 527 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: going to completely distort the relationship between uh Text mc 528 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: iver and Diane mc iver. Uh And if hersey is 529 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: down again, that's going to kind of distort the relationship 530 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: as well. And that's why it's so essential, you know, 531 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about their trajectory, because we 532 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: do know according to the forensic pathologists uh that the 533 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: trajectory on this round was was certainly downward, it was 534 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: back to front, and it actually went from right to left. 535 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: And this kind of lines up with what he had stated. 536 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: Remember earlier we had mentioned that he had stated that 537 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: he had the weapon in his right hand, that it 538 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: was in fact, uh resting in his lap, and so 539 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: she shot on the left side of her body. So 540 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea that this is in fact 541 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: a right to left shot, and it would line up 542 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: kind of where the position was on his lap with 543 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: his weapon. I think the bigger question here, and this 544 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: is more a question that the prosecutors would have to answer, 545 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: is was their intent to do this? And that brings 546 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: me back to my original supposition here all along. If 547 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: you're if your intent is to kill your wife, why 548 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: would you take the chance of firing into her back 549 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: to lower back and maybe not killing her at all, 550 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: where you have and complete access to the back of 551 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: her head and you could have shot her at that 552 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: moment tim guaranteeing that she would have died. There was 553 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: a kind of a high probability. He had no way 554 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: of knowing he was going to hit the die for him. 555 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: You know, he had no way of knowing that he 556 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: would hit any organs at all, So why why run 557 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: that risk? And there are a lot of people that 558 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: when Tex McIver was convicted, still had those questions that 559 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: they wanted answered. Well, his attorneys also have questions. They 560 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: have filed an appeal arguing that Fulton County Superior Court 561 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: Judge Robert mcberney made multiple mistakes during the twinal His 562 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: attorneys are asking the Georgia Supreme Court to overturn his conviction. 563 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: Everybody studies cases, they all want absolute answers at at 564 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: the end of the day, and I don't know that 565 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: we will ever have all of these questions answered. I mean, 566 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: let's keep in mind, the person that did the shooting 567 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 1: is in prison at this point, sitting there. Uh, and 568 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: of course his wife is deceased. And the other witness, 569 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: which was more of an ear witness, she was driving 570 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: her back, was to the event. So you know, sometimes 571 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: you look at this, you see the physical evidence and 572 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't actually always marry up with the narrative that's 573 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: being put forth. But in this case, the Fulton County 574 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 1: District Attorney got a conviction in it. I'm Joseph Scott 575 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: Morgan and this his body backs