1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: And today we are going to begin a multi episode 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: dive into the world of diamonds. So, diamonds, this is 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 2: a topic that it's probably been in sort of the 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 2: background for a while. We've considered, you know, we know 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 2: that there are a lot of interesting things about diamonds, 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 2: but I know, for my own part, there's like this 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: surface level resistance to covering diamonds because the first thing 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 2: that comes to mind is just sort of like the 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: ubiquitous vision of diamonds that you encounter in diamond TV commercials, 14 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 2: and it just kind of, you know, it certainly drives 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: home this idea that diamonds are something everyone wants, diamonds 16 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: are something everyone needs. But also diamonds end up looking 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: like this this ridiculous, mainstream square thing, and I'm just 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: resistant to the idea that there might be anything cool 19 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: about them. 20 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 3: The elegance, the grandeur, the luxury. 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, But when you dive deeper, both in terms 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: of the subject matter and also the history of diamonds, 23 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: there's a lot more there, and so we have a 24 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: number of different angles to approach in this series, including 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 2: some some basic reminders about what diamonds are. But but yeah, 26 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: I thought it a nice way to sort of kick 27 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 2: this off would just be to talk a little bit 28 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: about just like how we perceive diamonds, not even like, 29 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 2: you know, overtly, like let's sit down and think about diamonds, 30 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: but just sort of, like, you know, subconsciously, how we've 31 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: grown up processing them, because yeah, they're they're highly referenced 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: in our language. You know, they're they're valuable. Obviously, why 33 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: are they valuable? The various answers to that, But for 34 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: my own part, I was thinking about it growing up. 35 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: Diamonds were first of all, something that you know, my mother, 36 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: of various female members of the family had, but they 37 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: were too precious for me to touch or look at 38 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: too much. And then if you did look at them, 39 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: and I have to acknowledge this will vary depending on 40 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: your family's particular jewels, but they never looked like much 41 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: to me, especially as a kid. I'd look at one 42 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 2: and it's like, Okay, it's a little speck of nothing, 43 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: but then the light catches it just right, and it's brilliant, 44 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 2: it's amazing. But then you look back at it, okay, no, 45 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 2: just a little rock or something. And then watching movies, 46 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: I would know two things about diamonds. First of all, 47 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: they're super valuable because people are always trying to steal them, 48 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 2: and once you steal them, you can just like turn 49 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: them in for money somewhere, I guess. And finally, and 50 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: this often is seen in the same movies, you can 51 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: take a diamond and cut through any pane of glass 52 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: instantly by tracing a circle on that pane of glass, 53 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: you know, and it just neatly falls out into your hand, 54 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 2: or use a little suction cup to pull it out. Right. 55 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 3: I assume that's not really true. It doesn't work that way. 56 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 3: Is that Have you ever looked into that? 57 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: I believe this has been myth busted. Okay, so do 58 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: not attempt. But it looks super easy in various caper 59 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: films and TV shows and cartoons. Yeah. 60 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 3: I'm trying to think about the early significance of diamonds 61 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 3: to me, apart from them just being like a cash 62 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 3: equivalent mcguffin in you know, high stories and stuff. You know, 63 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 3: the bad guy in the movie always wants the diamonds, 64 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 3: get me the diamonds in real life. I remember when 65 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 3: I was young, I think I was a little confused 66 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 3: about the difference between a diamond and a glass prism, 67 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 3: because they looked the same to me, and the glass 68 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 3: prism was bigger and could cast, you know, the the 69 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: rainbows all over the wall, and so it wasn't quite 70 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 3: clear to me. I guess what was better about this 71 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 3: really tiny diamond as opposed to the huge diamond hanging 72 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 3: in the window. 73 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the prism, like you said, is a lot bigger. 74 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: It seems to work a lot better. Well, caveat on 75 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: that in a bit. But then, more to the point, 76 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: super cheap. You can buy prisms all day, you know, 77 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: especially the placestic variety, and you're not going to break 78 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: the bank. 79 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: But then again, apart from just the knowledge that a 80 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 3: lot of people had them, you know, on like their 81 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: engagement ring or their or their wedding ring, I guess 82 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: usually engagement ring, I didn't really have much real world 83 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 3: consciousness of them. They were they were primarily something in fiction. 84 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the TV ads too, though. I remember 85 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: thinking as a kid, it's like you'd see these images 86 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: of like, all right, you're in love, you're married, you 87 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: need to give more diamonds, And I and part of 88 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: you kind of like ask the question, Wow, if I'm 89 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: ever a married person, well, I just be buying diamonds 90 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 2: all the time, Like I've apparently got to buy the 91 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: first diamond and then just diamonds every year thereafter. But uh, yeah, 92 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 2: it's just I think it's amusing that diamonds can be 93 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: so all over the place. You know, they're valuable, but 94 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: they can also seem kind of plain and lame. They're sparkling, 95 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 2: they but also sometimes the way that we describe them 96 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: and think of them and may be imbued with spiritual truth. 97 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: They might be a physical manifestation of love, a symbol 98 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: of human greed, of horror and inequality, a magical thief's tool, 99 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: and also the ultimate and just gaudy excess. And I 100 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: feel like even the geologic truth of the diamond, which 101 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 2: we'll get into later, it feels so weird. Perhaps this weirdness, 102 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: at least for me anyway, And I think maybe for 103 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: a lot of film viewers of the time. You might 104 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: think back to a very memorable scene in Superman three 105 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: in which Christopher Reeves Superman picks up a chunk of 106 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: coal and crushes it in his fist, and then opens 107 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 2: his fist to reveal not only a diamond, but a 108 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: fully cut diamond. 109 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 3: So it's got what the facets on it that that's 110 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 3: not how diamonds come straight out of the earth. 111 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean, of course they're usually not made 112 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: by Superman, so I I guess with Superman everything's fair game. 113 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: He would do this in the comics too, apparently I 114 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: had to research this, but this is a Superman gag 115 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: that goes way back. I don't know if he ever 116 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 2: like makes any use of it, or it's just kind 117 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: of like he's always just kind of showing off. Maybe 118 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: the one up Jesus, I'm not sure, but but yeah, 119 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 2: I'll just crush that coal, open his fist. Bam, diamond, priceless, 120 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: already cut, ready to go. 121 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 3: It makes me wonder about a Superman plot line where 122 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 3: the villains are like diamond cartels that are worried Superman 123 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: is going to increase the supply too much. 124 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, or like villains who are like no, Superman's on 125 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: his way to shut down an operation like quick spreads 126 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 2: whole everywhere just in case he just haphazardly makes a 127 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: few diamonds. We may come out ahead in the end. 128 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 2: But yeah, to your point, he could you get like 129 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: gold finger the diamond market, couldn't he? Yeah? 130 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 3: Oh no, wait, that would be a reverse gold finger. 131 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,799 Speaker 2: That's right, it would be a reverse gold finger. Yes, 132 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: So yeah, I had this scene popping around my head. 133 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: I had the diamond commercials, and those diamond commercials again, 134 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 2: they try to convince you, even at a young age, 135 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: that diamonds are life. Diamonds, diamonds are everything worth having 136 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 2: in life, that they reflect life. And that's why I 137 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 2: think it's going to be great that our first major 138 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: avenue of investigation here concerns another idea that diamonds just 139 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: might be death. 140 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 3: Right. So this is actually what first got me interested 141 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 3: in the topic of diamonds for a series today. I 142 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: wanted to begin by looking at a weird question, and 143 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: the question is are diamonds poisonous? 144 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: So to be clear, this is not getting into very 145 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: valid discussions of things like blood diamonds and all. This 146 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: is the idea that there is something about the diamond 147 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: that is in and of itself poisonous to the human body. 148 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, poisonous if ingested in one form or another. Now, 149 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: before we get to the answer to this question, I 150 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 3: need to back up and explain the origin of the question, 151 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 3: which is that a few months ago, you may remember 152 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: we were doing a series on the shadow, the shadow 153 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 3: in history, art, science, and so forth. I think this 154 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 3: was during the last October, and one of the things 155 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: we ended up talking about in that series on the 156 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: shadow was an optical effect known as the Highligen shine. 157 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 3: This is a real world phenomenon in which people sometimes 158 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 3: see the shadow of their own head surrounded by a 159 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: bright halo of light when they happen to be standing 160 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 3: over a field of grass in the early morning. And 161 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: there might be other conditions that create the same effect, 162 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: but that's one of the most common ways people see it. Now, 163 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 3: you can go back and listen to that episode if 164 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 3: you want the full explanation of how this halo arises 165 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 3: from the interplay of sunlight, grass and do. The relevant 166 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 3: fact about it for today is that the Hylagan shine 167 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: is also sometimes called Cellini's halo, and it gets this 168 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 3: name from one of the early figures to notice and 169 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 3: mention it in writing, and that is a sixteenth century 170 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: Italian goldsmith and sculptor named Benvenuto Cellini, one of the 171 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 3: weirdest and most fascinating characters I have come across while 172 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 3: researching for this show. I am full steam ahead on 173 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 3: the Benvenudo Cellini train. Now I kind of want to 174 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 3: go back and read the entire memoirs. I might do that. 175 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: So. 176 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: Benvenudo Cellini lived from fifteen hundred to fifteen seventy one, 177 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 3: and though he is remembered for his artworks, which include 178 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 3: an almost absurdly ornate golden salt cellar, we talked about 179 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 3: this when he came up in that previous episode. He 180 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 3: made that for Francis the First the king of France 181 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: at the time, and also a large bronze sculpture of 182 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 3: Perseus holding up the severed head of Medusa, which is 183 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 3: one of the sculptures in the covered gallery that's at 184 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: the edge of the Piazza della Signora, which is the 185 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: big square in the center of Florence. Rob I've got 186 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: a picture of both these artworks for you to look 187 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: at here if you want. While he is known for 188 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: these artworks, he is known today I think at least 189 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: as much for his bizarre, fascinating, grandiose and almost certainly 190 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 3: heavily embellished auto biography, which is just packed full of 191 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 3: these weird, passionate rousing tales primarily about how awesome he is. 192 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 3: We get stories of Cellini lauded by kings and queens 193 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 3: for his unique genius, Cellini visited by angels who write 194 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: secret heavenly words on his forehead, Cellini single handedly fighting 195 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 3: off gangs of bandits, Cellini falsely imprisoned, Cellini hatching and 196 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: executing a daring prison break from Castle San Angelo in Rome. 197 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 3: And even in describing the Heiligensheine the glow around the 198 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 3: shadow's head, Chillini seems to believe it to be a 199 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 3: sign of God's special providence toward him, rather than like 200 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: an optical effect that anyone would experience in the same circumstances. 201 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: But as I recall from the previous episode, he was like, 202 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: many people have observed this. When I asked them, They're like, yes, 203 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 2: I see the halo above your head, around your head. 204 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 2: You are chosen by God. Clearly we all agree. 205 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. I showed it to other people and they In fact, 206 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 3: this is a theme I've noticed in the parts of 207 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 3: his memoirs I've read. He often is like somebody else 208 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: saw the thing I did, and they they agreed that 209 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 3: it was magnificent, and they told me I was special. 210 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 3: So rob, I thought you would appreciate this too. We 211 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: also get a story of Chillini meeting at least one 212 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 3: mythical monster in the story, which is the salamander. So 213 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 3: when Cellini was a child of five years old, he 214 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 3: tells that his father was playing the viola beside a 215 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: fire of oak logs in the basement of their house 216 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 3: when his father saw something in the fire and then 217 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: made his children come and look, and little Binvenudo saw 218 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: a lizard dancing in the heart of the flame, and 219 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 3: his father told him that it was the mythical salamander, 220 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 3: the elemental beast of fire, and he saw it. 221 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,599 Speaker 2: Oh excellent. You know, now that I thought about it 222 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: a little bit, I think tomorrow's monster fact may have 223 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 2: to be the salamander. But the real quick I think 224 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: that I have read before that some of these myths 225 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: about the salamander. And then again we have to point 226 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 2: out like a duality. Here there's this idea of a 227 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 2: mythical fire lizard, and then there's the actual salamander, and 228 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: the connecting tissue seems to be that there were accounts 229 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: of burning damp logs that and in reality, either contained 230 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: a salamander or you know, had a salamander clinging to 231 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 2: the underside of it. You'll frequently find salamanders in you know, 232 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: boggy or marshy environments underneath such a log. But if 233 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: you were to take such a log, throw it on 234 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: the fire, and you would see some sort of little 235 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: creature squirming there. Oh, it's it's some sort of It's 236 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: clearly it's made of fire. That's why it's in the fire. No, 237 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: it's just a salamander that was on the log you 238 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: threw in. Now, why you're throwing in super damp logs, 239 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe you just don't have a lot, 240 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: and maybe the fire is fully raging at that point, 241 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: and therefore you can throw something a little damp on there. 242 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 3: That is an interesting possibility. I hadn't thought about it 243 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 3: that way. But yeah, maybe somebody actually did accidentally get 244 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 3: some salamanders in the fire. 245 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: More on that tomorrow. More in that tomorrow. 246 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: Okay, Okay. In the case of this story, having read 247 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 3: it from the autobiography, I really can't tell if this 248 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: is something that makes more sense as there actually was 249 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 3: some sort of creature in there and they just misinterpreted 250 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 3: what it was, or if I don't know, they were 251 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 3: just looking into fire and seeing things in the shapes. 252 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: That's one of the compounding factors here, right, is that 253 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: humans logs staring into fires, and if you steer into 254 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: fires long enough, your imagination can allow you to see things. 255 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: And then if you have a pre existing cultural notion 256 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 2: that there is some sort of magical fire lizard in there, oh, 257 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: you might just see it anyway. 258 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 3: All of that to say that while Benvenudo Cellini is 259 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 3: a fascinating and in some ways important historical figure, we 260 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 3: should not take anything in his autobiography at face value 261 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 3: as history or science. You just read it and you 262 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 3: get the feeling even without you know, comparing it to 263 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 3: external evidence. It's like, Okay, there's obviously some embellishment going 264 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 3: on here. But to come back to the diamond question, 265 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 3: one of the many, many weird stories Cellini tells about 266 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 3: his time in prison is about a supposed attempt on 267 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 3: his life via poison made out of shattered diamonds. So 268 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: to set the stage in this passage, Chillini is hanging 269 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 3: out in prison one of the multiple times he's imprisoned 270 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: in the story, he has just written a sonnet that 271 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: will prove his innocence, Like he's written a sonnet that 272 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 3: is so virtuous and indicative of his lack of criminality 273 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: that he believes the constable had it sent to the 274 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 3: Pope for review, with the implication that, like, when the 275 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 3: Pope sees this poem I wrote, then they'll have to 276 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 3: release me because they'll know I couldn't have done it. 277 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 3: But suddenly the friendly constable in the prison dies and 278 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 3: he is replaced by the constable is replaced by his brother. 279 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: And at this point Sciellini believes that a group of 280 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 3: his enemies sort of like seize the moment and conspire 281 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: to kill him by poison. And another thing is that 282 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: Jellini is frequently making references to conspiracies of enemies against him. 283 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: He seems to constantly think that he's got a bunch 284 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 3: of enemies who are out to get him. And it's 285 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 3: not exactly clear to me how much truth there is 286 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 3: to this. There might be, but it's hard to tell. 287 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 3: So he describes their plot as follows, and the translation 288 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 3: of Chileini's autobiography I'm going to read for here is 289 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 3: by Thomas Roscoe. This was published back in the nineteenth century. 290 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 3: So Chillini writes, they at first thought of mixing with 291 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: my meat the powder of a pounded diamond. This is 292 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: not a poison of itself, but is so excessively hard 293 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: that it retains its acute angles, Differing from other stones, which, 294 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: when they are pounded entirely lose the sharpness of their 295 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 3: particles and become round. The diamond alone preserves the acuteness 296 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 3: of its angles. Hence it follows that when it enters 297 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: the stomach with the meat, and the operation of digestion 298 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: is to be performed, the particles of the diamond stick 299 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: to the cartilages of the stomach and the bowels, and 300 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 3: as the newly received food is impelled forward, the minute 301 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 3: parts of the diamond which adhere to those cartilages, in 302 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 3: process of time perforate them, and this causes death. Whereas 303 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: every other sort of stone or glass, when mixed with meat, 304 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: is incapable of sticking to the coat of the stomach, 305 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 3: and of consequence is voided with the food. 306 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: This doesn't sound like a pleasant poison. 307 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 3: No, this is horrible. No, he's saying that I don't. 308 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 3: He's distinguishing it somehow from the concept of poison, which 309 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, either way, it's something that 310 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 3: ingested harms you, but maybe the other idea that a 311 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: poison is something that though I don't even I don't 312 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 3: think Chillini in his time would have had these concepts. 313 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 3: But is killed by way of some like chemical metabolism, 314 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 3: where this is killed because like literally, it's just like 315 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 3: pieces stabbing you on the inside. It's like swallowing a 316 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 3: bunch of needles or something, except on an incredibly tiny scale. 317 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 3: So he's saying, you know, it's it's mechanically killing you 318 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 3: from the inside rather than chemically killing you from the inside, 319 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 3: and it truly does sound horrible. However, Chillini says that 320 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 3: he escapes death from the intended plot as a result 321 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 3: of his enemies bungling their plan. So he says that 322 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 3: one of the conspirators is that it was the supplier 323 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 3: of the diamond. So that conspirator gets the diamond and 324 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: he gives it to another one of the conspirators who 325 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 3: is supposed to pound it into a powder, and that 326 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 3: powder is going to be used to poison him. But 327 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 3: this second guy who is supposed to pound the diamond, 328 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 3: being broke and greedy, kept the diamond and swapped it 329 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: out for a different gem of lesser value, which he 330 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 3: pounded and then handed over for the purpose of the murder. 331 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 3: So here we pick up again with Chillini's narrative. He says, 332 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: on the day that it was administered to me, being 333 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 3: good Friday, they put it into all my victuals, into 334 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: the salad, the sauce, and the soup. I ate very heartily, 335 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 3: as I had had no supper the night before, and 336 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 3: it happened to be a holiday. I indeed felt the 337 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 3: meat crash under my teeth. Oh, but never once dreamt 338 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 3: of the villainous designs of my enemies. When I had 339 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 3: done dinner, as there remained a little of the salad 340 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 3: on the dish, I happened to fix my eyes on 341 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,199 Speaker 3: some of the smallest particles remaining. I immediately took them, and, 342 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 3: advancing to the window, upon examining them by the light, 343 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: recollected the unusual crashing above mentioned. Then, viewing the particles 344 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 3: with attention, I was inclined to think, as far as 345 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 3: my eye could judge, that a pounded diamond had been 346 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 3: mixed with my victuals. So Jelani knows he's going to 347 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 3: die and he prays to God. However, upon examining the 348 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 3: grains further, he realizes that they're actually not quite indestructible 349 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: to him. He can sort of crack and crunch them 350 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 3: with a small knife, and that means they are not 351 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 3: actually made of diamond. And because a diamond he thinks 352 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 3: he would not be able to crush with this small knife, 353 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 3: but this other gym he would. And then he says, Okay, 354 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 3: if there are another gem, they're not actually able to 355 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 3: injure me. It would have to be diamond powder for 356 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: it to work. So I think he sort of like 357 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 3: deduces the whole plot and how it was bungled here. 358 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 3: But oh there's a good twist here. Though. He at 359 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 3: first shows evidence of the attempted poisoning to another prisoner, 360 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 3: a bishop of Pavia, who is in prison on account 361 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 3: of quote plots and intrigues, and he allows this bishop 362 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 3: in the cell over to think that Chillini has been 363 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: successfully poisoned with a real diamond and only has a 364 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: few months to live, and uses this to get the 365 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 3: bishop to share his presumably better quality bishop food with Chillini. 366 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,239 Speaker 3: And by the way, this is by no means the 367 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: only story that Chillini tells about plots against his life. 368 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: It's not even the only attempted poisoning. There's another story 369 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 3: where he claims that enemies tried to poison his food 370 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: with mercuric chloride at the time known as corrosive sublimate, 371 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 3: which definitely is poisonous in reality, But according to Chillini, 372 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 3: they didn't give him a big enough dose, so they 373 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 3: poisoned him with it. Instead of killing him, it only 374 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 3: made him sick to his stomach and cured his syphilis. 375 00:20:54,320 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: Oh man. 376 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 3: So, anyway, to come back to the question at hand, 377 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 3: I was really fascinated by this story, and I wondered 378 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 3: if there was any truth to Chillini's ideas about the 379 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 3: lethal effect of eating ground up diamonds. And I'm going 380 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 3: to get into some more details here, but as best 381 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 3: I can tell, the answer is probably no. But I'm 382 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: not going to give a note with such confidence that 383 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: you get the green light to go eat some diamond powder. 384 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 3: I'd still be cautious about it. Yeah, do not do that, 385 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 3: because one thing that is clear is Chillini is far 386 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 3: from the only person in history to advance this notion. 387 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 3: It has been held by many in many different cultures, times, 388 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: and places throughout world history that eating diamonds is poisonous, 389 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 3: though interestingly it also in other contexts has diamonds have 390 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 3: been regarded as medicine. So to further explore this urban 391 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 3: legend about diamond based poisons, the best source I found 392 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 3: was a book called Diamonds, An Early History of the 393 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 3: King of Gems from Yale University Press twenty eighteen, written 394 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: by a British historian named Jack Ogden, who seems to 395 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 3: specialize in the history of jewelry. 396 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great book. I've been reading this 397 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: as well, and we'll reference this in future topics we're 398 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,719 Speaker 2: discussing concerning diamonds. But yeah, Ogden is what a genologist 399 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: in addition to an historian, so he knows his diamonds. 400 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, And in the section on poisoning by diamond Ogden 401 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 3: says that as far as he can tell, there is 402 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 3: no scientific support for the belief that diamonds are poisonous. 403 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 3: As one of the early sources to write extensively on 404 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 3: this subject, Ogden cites the famous eleventh century Persian scientist 405 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 3: and scholar al Biruni, who was one of the great 406 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 3: polymaths of the Islamic Golden Age, famously a master of 407 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 3: many many disciplines, so he wrote books on extremely varied subjects, 408 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: from mathematics to astronomy, history, geography, and ethnography. He apparently 409 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 3: produced a very important medieval book on the culture of India. 410 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 3: In one section, Ogden talks about how Albiruni made a 411 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 3: note of how appreciation for diamonds varied greatly by culture, 412 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 3: and so while diamonds were, he says, widely venerated for 413 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 3: their ornamental value in India, he claimed that they were 414 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 3: not equally venerated in neighboring regions like Iraq and Korsan, 415 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: which Korison at the time would have been a region 416 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: corresponding to what is today parts of Iran, Afghanistan, and 417 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 3: Central Asia. And in these latter regions, Albiruni said that 418 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 3: diamonds were only used for drilling and for making poison. 419 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 3: But did Albiruni think that they were actually effective as poison. 420 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: No. 421 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 3: He offered several lines of evidence against the idea that 422 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 3: pieces of diamond could be used as poison the way 423 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 3: that Chillini would later describe. First of all, he mentions 424 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: a kind of logical problem with how these poisoning plots 425 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: are supposed to work. He says, if people were fed 426 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: pieces of diamond as a poison quote, if it has 427 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 3: not been ground, well, it will be betrayed by the 428 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 3: teeth of the eater. 429 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: Ugh. 430 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 3: Oh god. There's a lot of like cringe inducing ideas here, 431 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: from from tooth trauma, from crunching on a diamond to 432 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 3: swallowing sharp things. 433 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, like, even if it's gritty, you know, like that 434 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: might be enough to make the target of your assassination 435 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: either just send back the dish or it would raise 436 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: their suspicion that someone was trying to poison them with diamonds, 437 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: as we saw our previous example. And certainly if the 438 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: individual had a food taster as well, that would also 439 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: be some that would also be something that would tip 440 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 2: your hand here and would alert your target that you 441 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: were trying to do them in. 442 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and interestingly, most of the the old stories about 443 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: poisonings via via diamond powder concern very rich people in history, 444 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 3: you know, and for I think probably obvious reasons that 445 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 3: you know, diamond powder is probably not cheap to come by. 446 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 3: So the people who were allegedly being poisoned by diamond 447 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 3: powder were, you know, aristocrats, enemies of the Medici family maybe, 448 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 3: or kings and queens or popes or sultan's things like that. 449 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: But anyway, so Albrouni is saying, presumably, if it were 450 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 3: to be successfully snuck into someone's food, it would have 451 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 3: to be pulverized into a very fine powder. But the 452 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 3: second thing is albi Rouni cites experimental evidence. He says 453 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 3: that he and maybe he or someone else tried feeding 454 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 3: pieces of diamond to a dog and says that the 455 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 3: dog showed no signs whatsoever of harm, neither immediately after 456 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 3: the experiment nor any time later. He's like, yeah, dog's fine. 457 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 2: Oh wow, is this the titular diamond dog? 458 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 3: Then that had not occurred to me. I don't know. 459 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: Now that is some experimental evidence. Though on the other hand, 460 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: that clearly would not meet the standards of a modern 461 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 3: toxicology experiment. But it's something something to look at now, 462 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 3: I'll be ROUNEI us. He puts all these considerations together, 463 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 3: and he says, you know, in the end, there's no 464 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 3: basis for thinking diamonds are poisonous. He says that it 465 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,880 Speaker 3: is all idle talk, it's tall tales, but that did 466 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: not stop lots of other people from believing it. Ogden 467 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 3: mentions an account written by the sixteenth century English politician 468 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: Jerome Horsey, who recorded comments made by the Russian Czar 469 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 3: Ivan the Terrible. I believe this was near the time 470 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 3: of Ivan's death, in which Ivan was going on about 471 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 3: the godlike potency of the diamond, and he said, among 472 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 3: other things, that quote the least parcel of it in 473 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 3: powder will poison a horse, with the implication you know, 474 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 3: how much more will it do to a human if 475 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 3: it'll poison a horse? And I just wanted to mention 476 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 3: a footnote of Ogden's where he says, well, first of all, 477 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 3: in this footnote he says, you know, if you go 478 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 3: trying to look up that comment of Ivans, it is 479 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 3: not in the edited published account of Jerome Horsey's travels 480 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 3: in Russia, but it is in his manuscript from which 481 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 3: the edited account was produced. But then finally he says, 482 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 3: quote whether Ivan's example of a horse was a deliberate 483 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 3: pun on Horsey's name is unknown, but Ogden also mentioned 484 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 3: several records of people who allegedly attempted to commit murders 485 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 3: by slipping diamonds into people's food. So one was noted 486 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 3: by a sixteenth century Portuguese doctor named Garcia del Orta 487 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: or Garcia de Orta, who claims that a woman tried 488 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 3: to kill her sick husband by feeding him ground up 489 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: diamonds and that didn't work. Another account takes place in 490 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 3: early seventeenth century England. It's some kind of very messy 491 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: lover's dispute among aristocrats in which the wife of an 492 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 3: earl wanted her marriage annulled so she could marry a 493 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 3: different earl. But the guy who she wanted to get 494 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: married to had an adviser who disapproved of her, so 495 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 3: she wanted to kill the advisor so she could go 496 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 3: ahead with the marriage to this other guy. But apparently 497 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 3: at one point in this caper, she sent an associate 498 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 3: to an apothecary to buy diamond powder. It was like, 499 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 3: you know, we've got to have the diamond powder for poisoning, 500 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 3: you know, whatever it costs to get it. And the 501 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 3: apothecary was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, 502 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 3: and she called him a fool, and she was eventually 503 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 3: able to poison the adviser, but it seems like it was. 504 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 3: Historians think it was probably with a different agent other 505 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 3: than diamond now. Ogden mentions another sixteenth century physician, an 506 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 3: Italian named Girolamo Cardano, who also commented on the use 507 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 3: of diamonds as a poison and similar to Albi Rooney, 508 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 3: cast doubt on the idea because he was like, you know, like, 509 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 3: there are cases where people steal diamonds by swallowing them 510 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 3: and then later retrieving them, and there's no evidence that 511 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 3: they suffered any harm. Now you might think, well, well, 512 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 3: but those are like whole, intact diamonds. Maybe maybe swallowing 513 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 3: a whole diamond is fine, but swallowing the ground up 514 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 3: diamond powder is what's really dangerous. And uh. And Cardono 515 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 3: also says he knows of at least one case where 516 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 3: somebody had swallowed a big mass of diamond powder quote, 517 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 3: without prejudicing the health of the taker anymore than if 518 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 3: he had eaten so much bread. Though this does make 519 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,479 Speaker 3: me wonder, Okay, assuming diamonds, diamonds and diamond powder are 520 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 3: not particularly poisonous, how do they generally affect digestion? Like 521 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: I was thinking, you know, like is a diamond upset 522 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 3: stomach a thing, our diamond farts a thing. 523 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: Well, certainly that I can see where the concept would 524 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: be alluring, because I mean it's kind of like the 525 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: diamond dog thing. Like the diamond has just such linguistic weight, 526 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: you know, it brings with it all these connotations of 527 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: obscene wealth and splendor, and we combine it with something 528 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 2: that could be considered lowly like a dog, like the 529 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 2: passing of gas. It instantly like zings in the brain, right. 530 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 3: Yes, And that kind of points to another thing. So 531 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 3: Cardano's comment about stealing or smuggling diamonds by swallowing them, 532 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 3: it really kind of makes me wonder about this belief 533 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 3: in the poisonous power of diamonds, Like if this belief 534 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 3: about death by diamond ingestion could trace back to people 535 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 3: trying to prevent diamond theft or diamond smuggling, you know, 536 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 3: like better not try to swallow it or hide it 537 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 3: in your mouth. If you swallow it, it'll rip your 538 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 3: guts apart. Now, Ogden kind of comes up short looking 539 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: for recent evidence of experiments on the toxicity of diamonds, 540 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 3: and he ends up having to look back to a 541 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 3: letter written to the journal Notes and Queries in eighteen 542 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 3: seventy five which claimed that quote, the only possible way 543 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 3: in which it diamond powder could be injurious would be 544 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 3: as a mechanical irritant to the mucous membrane of the stomach. 545 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: So I was kind of wondering, are there any more 546 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: recent studies on the toxicity of ground up of either 547 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 3: diamonds in whole form or shattered diamonds or diamonds ground 548 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 3: up into a powder. And I did not directly find 549 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 3: any good toxicology research on this. I did come across 550 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 3: another just sort of like compilation overview in a book 551 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 3: on nanomedicine written by an author named Robert Fritus, who 552 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 3: has written a lot of information that's freely available online. 553 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: In his work, Fritis collects a bunch of other claims 554 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: from the history of diamonds, but both claims of them 555 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 3: working as poison but also as medicine, and this author writing, 556 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 3: I think in the early to mid two thousands, like 557 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: two thousand and three, two thousand and five, it looked 558 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 3: like these sources were dated. This author basically says that 559 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: the evidence from history is inconclusive, and that he's also 560 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 3: not able to find any good recent toxicology studies on 561 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 3: diamond powder ingestion. He does note that any abrasive, gritty 562 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 3: powder ingested in sufficient quantities can cause problems. Like if 563 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: you you just eat a bunch of sand, you know, 564 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 3: you can get intestinal blockage, obviously if you have to 565 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 3: be super super grossier. But if you know, you eat 566 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 3: like a needle or something that is long and sharp, 567 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 3: you can get perforations somewhere in the digestive system. So 568 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 3: a lot of things, a lot of you know, non 569 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 3: food items, if eaten in sufficient quantities, can hurt you. 570 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess even food items eaten in sufficient 571 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 3: quantities can hurt you. But he says, it looks like 572 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 3: there's not strong modern evidence that diamond powder in particular 573 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: is dangerous. However, I would say that does not mean 574 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 3: you've got the green light to go eat it. This 575 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 3: guy's conclusion seems to be that there's not strong evidence 576 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 3: that diamond powder is poisonous, but there's like enough concern 577 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 3: that it would be worth studying to make sure, especially 578 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 3: for people who are maybe exposed to it more often 579 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 3: in their line of work. So, to summarize my thoughts here, 580 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 3: most of the actual accounts of diamonds used as poison 581 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 3: as opposed to you know accounts as opposed to just 582 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 3: free floating factoids about how diamonds work and what they 583 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: can do. The accounts seem to be either unsubstantiated rumors, 584 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 3: or they conclude with the diamond poison not working, or 585 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 3: the details seem a little slippery. However, the evidence on 586 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 3: whether diamonds are poisonous does still seem to be mixed. 587 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 3: It seems like it's probably not any more poisonous than 588 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 3: any other abrasive, gritty powder, but we're far from one 589 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 3: hundred percent confidence on that. Plus any powder insufficient quantities 590 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: could hurt you, so I would still say it is 591 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 3: probably better not to eat it. 592 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's just no reason to ingest diamond dust like 593 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 2: it's on one hand, yes, it probably won't hurt you, 594 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: but just to be safe, don't do it and don't 595 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: poison people. Obviously, that's I think, that's that's something we 596 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 2: stand by here on the show. But even if you 597 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: were in the business of poisoning people, this would not 598 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 2: be a good poison. This would be nothing you could 599 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: rely on, So don't do it. 600 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 3: Well, it makes me wonder about the sort of the 601 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 3: literary appeal of the idea of diamonds as poison. You know, 602 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 3: the same reason it struck us as interesting to talk 603 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 3: about this on the show is that it seems unusual 604 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 3: and like an extravagant type of poison. So I almost 605 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 3: wonder if in some of these stories where it was 606 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 3: allegedly used to poison people or to attempt to poison people, 607 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 3: it should make us question the facts of the narrative, 608 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 3: because this is like a potent image of somebody using 609 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 3: an extravagant, expensive luxury item to harm someone, and it's 610 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 3: like packed with meaning, you. 611 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 2: Know, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of irony to it. 612 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: This is exactly the kind of thing. And I don't know, 613 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 2: it's impossible that either of these characters utilize some sort 614 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 2: of fictional diamond poison at some point or another, but 615 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing you could imagine Diabolic from 616 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 2: Danger Diabolic, yes, using you know, against his rich enemies. 617 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 2: And likewise, for like modern film franchises, you could imagine 618 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 2: the Jigsaw Killer from the Saw movies using something like this. 619 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 2: It's just it would be the perfect ironic death for 620 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: some sort of like a uber rich villain, right. 621 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 3: Right, or for somebody like like Benvenudo Cillini, who is 622 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 3: a goldsmith and a jeweler and a sculptor, somebody who 623 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 3: worked with gold and jewels. I don't know if scholars 624 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 3: of Chillini's life and memoirs would have more to say 625 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 3: about that, but yeah, it seems like it seems fitting 626 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 3: that his enemies would try to get him with a 627 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 3: beautiful jewel that he might be, something that he might 628 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 3: have used in one of his works. 629 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: All right, well, we're gonna go ahead and close out 630 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: this first episode of our look at Diamonds, but we'll 631 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 2: be back on Thursday with part two. We're going to 632 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: kick that off with some diamond basics. So if you're like, 633 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 2: hold on, I still don't know what a diamond is, 634 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 2: don't worry. We're gonna jump in with some of the 635 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: basics at the beginning of the next episode, and then 636 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 2: we'll get into more weird and fascinating elements of the 637 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 2: diamond's role and culture and belief and so forth. So 638 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 2: it should be a fun ride. In the meantime, we'll 639 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: remind you that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily 640 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: a science podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays 641 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 2: listener mail on Mondays. On Wednesday's we do a short 642 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,399 Speaker 2: form artifact or monster fact episode. I think we're gonna 643 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 2: put together one on the Salamander for tomorrow, and then 644 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just 645 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. 646 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 3: Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 647 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 648 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 649 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 650 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 651 00:36:54,560 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 652 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 653 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 654 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.