Speaker 1: We think that we're going to be happy by getting
Speaker 1: a person, but you'll never be happy by getting a
Speaker 1: person that doesn't meet your needs. It doesn't matter how
Speaker 1: impressive you think they are. And that's the danger, right
Speaker 1: That's the trap people fall into. I've fallen into it.
Speaker 1: One of the world's leading dating in a relationship coach
Speaker 1: here has helped millions of people find love, Matthew Hussey.
Speaker 1: We write people off at lightning speed. They may have
Speaker 1: a wisdom that you never picked up on. If the
Speaker 1: reason so many people never reach the point of real
Speaker 1: relationship is because.
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, I've got some huge news to share with you.
Speaker 2: In the last ninety days, seventy nine point four percent
Speaker 2: of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are
Speaker 2: not subscribed to this channel. There's research that shows that
Speaker 2: if you want to create a habit, make it easy
Speaker 2: to access. By hitting the subscribe button, you're creating a
Speaker 2: habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed.
Speaker 2: This would also mean the absolute world to me and
Speaker 2: help us make better, bigger, brighter content for you and
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Speaker 3: Subscribe right now. The number one health and wellness podcast.
Speaker 2: Jay set Jay Shetty Sly. Hey everyone, welcome back to
Speaker 2: On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier,
Speaker 2: and more healed, whether it's your relationships, your work life,
Speaker 2: or everything in between. I'm glad that I get to
Speaker 2: sit down and talk with fascinating people who are sharing
Speaker 2: vulnerable journeys, powerful insights, and great habits. If you've been
Speaker 2: struggling in your love life, this episode is for you.
Speaker 2: If you've been going through a tough breakup, if you've
Speaker 2: been struggling with dating, this episode is for you. And
Speaker 2: if you're someone who's just trying to understand how to
Speaker 2: unlock love within yourself, love in every interaction and create
Speaker 2: a space where each and every one of your relationships
Speaker 2: are fulfilling and full of harmony, this episode is for you.
Speaker 2: I'm sitting down with one of my great friends and
Speaker 2: amazing thought leaders, Matthew Hussey, New York Times best selling author, speaker,
Speaker 2: and coach specializing in confidence and relationship intelligence. Matthew is
Speaker 2: the host of the podcast Love Life with Matthew Hussey
Speaker 2: that I've got the honor of being a guest on,
Speaker 2: so check that episode out, and over the past fifteen years,
Speaker 2: Matthew's proven approach has inspired millions through authentic, insightful, and
Speaker 2: practical advice that not only enables them to find love,
Speaker 2: but also feel confident in control of their own happiness. Today,
Speaker 2: we're talking about his new book, Love Life. If you
Speaker 2: don't have this book, make sure you go and grab
Speaker 2: it right now. How to raise your standards, find your
Speaker 2: person and live happily no matter what. Please welcome to
Speaker 2: the show. The author of Love Life, Matthew Hussey.
Speaker 3: What's up. It's so good to see you, So good
Speaker 3: to see you. Missed you. It's been a while.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, we find it hard to catch
Speaker 1: each other. One of us is always traveling.
Speaker 3: I know, but it's so nice to be together.
Speaker 1: I'm excited about this conversation.
Speaker 3: Man, me too, Me too.
Speaker 2: Last time you were on, people absolutely loved it. And
Speaker 2: when I was reading through your book, I was blown
Speaker 2: away because I know that you've put five years of
Speaker 2: work into this. This has been a real labor of love,
Speaker 2: and we all know how hard it is to write
Speaker 2: books and how much effort it takes. And when I
Speaker 2: saw the amount of honesty, the amount of self awareness,
Speaker 2: the amount of openness that you approach this book with
Speaker 2: I think anyone who reads it is going to walk
Speaker 2: away feeling like they feel heard, they feel seen, and
Speaker 2: they actually know how to be honest and open with
Speaker 2: themselves through the journey of love, which is what you've done.
Speaker 3: That's that's how I feel anyway.
Speaker 2: So I'm really excited for be able to read it,
Speaker 2: and I've got so many questions for you.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to die right Yeah, yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2: So I want to start with this idea because everyone
Speaker 2: that we know, since we're young, wants to fall in love,
Speaker 2: and we've all heard so much advice on love that
Speaker 2: has somehow become our version of what love is. Or
Speaker 2: we've all seen so many love stories, whether it was
Speaker 2: a bad love story with our parents, whether it was
Speaker 2: a good love story with our uncles and aunts, whether
Speaker 2: it was our older brother or older sister, whoever it was.
Speaker 2: Where did your earliest ideas of love come from? And
Speaker 2: which ones do you still agree with and which ones
Speaker 2: do you disagree with?
Speaker 1: I suppose on some level some of them must have
Speaker 1: come from my upbringing. You know, my mum talking about
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of giddiness that she felt for
Speaker 1: my dad when they first met, and you know, the attraction.
Speaker 1: I'm sure so much of it was songs and movies.
Speaker 1: I suppose the thing that I think about now is like,
Speaker 1: what I value today is different, I think, than what
Speaker 1: I might have valued at twenty one. It's still you know,
Speaker 1: I very much value attraction and chemistry because I think
Speaker 1: it's going to be a long road if you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship that doesn't have those things. But the things
Speaker 1: that became kind of non negotiables for me changed, like
Speaker 1: finding someone who brings me peace and being in a
Speaker 1: relationship that felt peaceful. That was something that made its
Speaker 1: entrance later in my life, and I paid the price
Speaker 1: for it not making its entrance sooner. You know, I
Speaker 1: was in multiple relationships that really robbed me of my piece,
Speaker 1: and so I think that probably early on I wasn't
Speaker 1: seeking peace. I was seeking just the ride, you know,
Speaker 1: the experience of feeling these incredible feelings for somebody and
Speaker 1: and also perhaps being heroic to that person. I think
Speaker 1: that was probably an early idea that you know, I
Speaker 1: was the there had to be something heroic about the
Speaker 1: way that I showed up or presented myself. And I
Speaker 1: think that for a long time that that prevented me
Speaker 1: from ever really being seen. You know, I if you'd
Speaker 1: have asked me at twenty five, are you vulnerable? I
Speaker 1: would have been like yeah, I wouldn't have said no.
Speaker 1: I wasn't self aware about it. But like, there was
Speaker 1: a lot that I never really brought forward about myself.
Speaker 1: I think that we are very good at like, you know,
Speaker 1: we all tell the hero's journey of our life, and
Speaker 1: we love that, right because it's a kind of here's
Speaker 1: where I was and here's where I am now. You know,
Speaker 1: whenever you hear like a rags to riches story, it's
Speaker 1: back then I was in a bad spot. Now I'm
Speaker 1: in an amazing spot. And I remember I used to
Speaker 1: tell stories like that in my life. I could be
Speaker 1: dating and telling stories like that of where I'd come
Speaker 1: from and where I am now, and there was nothing
Speaker 1: really vulnerable about those stories. There was still the story
Speaker 1: of like how I'm awesome, because it's a hero's journey,
Speaker 1: you know. But it's a lot harder to be like
Speaker 1: here's what I'm struggling with right now, or that thing
Speaker 1: that you just did just made me really jealous and insecure,
Speaker 1: or you know, I'm feeling emasculated right now, like those things,
Speaker 1: my God like that to bring that stuff forward for
Speaker 1: me was was I didn't realize how hard it was
Speaker 1: and how terrified I must have been of doing that,
Speaker 1: and how deeply unworthy I felt to be able to
Speaker 1: really show someone who I was and still feel like
Speaker 1: I'd be loved afterwards, you know, I'd get like, you know,
Speaker 1: vulnerability hangover at the end of and by the way,
Speaker 1: sometimes sometimes it did backfire. I remember, you know, when
Speaker 1: I was trying on the whole vulnerability thing. I remember
Speaker 1: saying to someone about a moment in an evening that
Speaker 1: had made me insecure. I remember talking about like I
Speaker 1: didn't want to, but I could tell I was being passive,
Speaker 1: aggressive and cold, and the walls had gone up, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, I'm not being That's the hard
Speaker 1: place to be, right when you know you're not being
Speaker 1: your normal, fun, loving, happy self, but you're also not
Speaker 1: being honest about what you're feeling. So you're just in
Speaker 1: this weird no man's land of like being unpleasant to
Speaker 1: be around. And I realized, like this, I can't hide
Speaker 1: how I'm feeling right now, and instead of like gaslighting
Speaker 1: this person and that I'm fine and I'm not let
Speaker 1: me just share something that made me insecure, and it
Speaker 1: really backfired, like this person said to me, I find that.
Speaker 1: This is the literal words that were said to me,
Speaker 1: was I find that really unattractive And it crushed me
Speaker 1: because I thought I was like in my head, I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm never doing that again. I remember living
Speaker 1: with my friend at the time and I walked to
Speaker 1: his room and I was like, I can't believe what
Speaker 1: just happened, Like I'm such an And I didn't say
Speaker 1: I didn't say wow, that was really lacking in compassion
Speaker 1: from her side. That was like the depths of my
Speaker 1: own like lack of compassion, self compassion. Was that instead
Speaker 1: of saying wow, that was a really that was a
Speaker 1: kind of a mean and response lacking compassion. Instead, I went,
Speaker 1: I'm such an idiot. I can't believe I said that
Speaker 1: out loud, Like why did I reveal that weakness? And
Speaker 1: it took me a little while to recover from that
Speaker 1: because it kind of it reinforced That's that was the
Speaker 1: dangerous part. Is it reinforced this idea that I needed
Speaker 1: to be heroic at all times and not to have
Speaker 1: those weaknesses, and that it was those parts of me
Speaker 1: were contemptible if people knew about them. So that was
Speaker 1: a that was a big That was a big thing
Speaker 1: for me. I think thinking I had to be a
Speaker 1: hero all the time and not realizing that a real
Speaker 1: relationship is so much more interesting than that.
Speaker 2: Wow, man, so powerful. So many things to unpack, so
Speaker 2: many things to unpack. One of the things I want
Speaker 2: to start with is what is the difference between a
Speaker 2: peaceful relationship and a boring relationship?
Speaker 3: Because I think.
Speaker 1: That great question. That's a great question because.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people think of peaceful as
Speaker 2: boring when we're not emotionally mature. So I can relate
Speaker 2: to what you're saying, where you actually want a relationship
Speaker 2: that's kind of like Chao and up and down and
Speaker 2: passionate and then we love each other we hate each other,
Speaker 2: you know, there's that kind of energy, there's something and
Speaker 2: we kind of do that in a lot of our lives.
Speaker 2: And by the way, we do that even in marriage
Speaker 2: and relationships where we can often invent drama because it's
Speaker 2: too peaceful. And I've had friends who've reached out to
Speaker 2: me and said, Jay, I keep creating drama in my
Speaker 2: life because that's what I'm used to. And I don't
Speaker 2: know what to do with this guy or this girl
Speaker 2: because they're actually peaceful. So people are scared that peaceful
Speaker 2: means boring. But you've just said you like a peaceful relationship.
Speaker 2: I know you're not a boring guy, So what's the difference?
Speaker 1: I you know, So when you was just saying that,
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, I there are days where I'm
Speaker 1: on time for something and I will kind of go
Speaker 1: and do one more thing before the meeting that makes
Speaker 1: me late, so that I have to like make a
Speaker 1: game of getting in the car and like finding a
Speaker 1: way to like how can I still like other GPS
Speaker 1: says I'm going to be there and that two minutes before,
Speaker 1: but I'd like shaving off a minute like I was
Speaker 1: on time? Yeah, why did I do the one more
Speaker 1: Nothing was gonna nothing was going to go wrong if
Speaker 1: I didn't do that one more thing?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Why did I do one more thing? That made me late?
Speaker 1: And I had like I had to realize at a
Speaker 1: certain point that that was like my nervous system. I
Speaker 1: I you know, I grew up around like my dad
Speaker 1: was always late for everything. I learned that from him.
Speaker 1: I used to hate it, by the way, but like
Speaker 1: I had, I had also then adopted it and I'm
Speaker 1: not that way anymore in my life. But like it,
Speaker 1: I realized, like I have an addiction to this feeling,
Speaker 1: this like mini drama of am I going to get
Speaker 1: there on time? Which creates this little mini drama in
Speaker 1: my day for like ten minutes. It's like an adrenaline
Speaker 1: rush and like you know, and it's a horrible feeling. Really,
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel good. It feels like stressful and anxiety inducing.
Speaker 1: And now I'm going to come across as rude and disrespectful.
Speaker 1: Is someone's time and I'm like stressed. But it's like
Speaker 1: a my body is used to that I'm not used
Speaker 1: to like getting somewhere on time and like have ten
Speaker 1: minutes to just chill and like it's there's a new
Speaker 1: feeling that can feel boring. So in terms of a relation,
Speaker 1: I think we do it everywhere in our lives. In
Speaker 1: terms of a relationship, I knew when I met with
Speaker 1: my wife Audrey that I had found peace that wasn't
Speaker 1: by any means boring because I felt at home. I didn't,
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't just feel safe. We can feel
Speaker 1: safe and very bored. Right, we can feel like I'm
Speaker 1: with someone who is very non threatening. I feel like, I,
Speaker 1: you know, this person's not going to leave me. I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm very safe in this situation. But I
Speaker 1: don't really like this doesn't feel like my person. I
Speaker 1: just feel same. And when you haven't felt safe for
Speaker 1: a long time, sometimes that's a very lovely feeling on
Speaker 1: its own. Just to feel like I'm no longer in
Speaker 1: an abusive relationship, or I'm no longer in a relationship
Speaker 1: with someone that makes me second guess myself all the
Speaker 1: time or feels like they're going to leave me at
Speaker 1: any moment. But eventually we will get bored in a
Speaker 1: situation where the only thing that's presenting as a positive
Speaker 1: thing is the safety we feel. But in this relationship,
Speaker 1: I felt at home and I felt like I felt
Speaker 1: more seen than I'd ever felt before. You know, I
Speaker 1: really was astonished to the extent to which this person
Speaker 1: got me and that we seem to get each other.
Speaker 1: And you know, the first night we met, we spoke
Speaker 1: for eight hours straight, literally like everyone else was like
Speaker 1: partying and doing that, and we were just we talked
Speaker 1: for eight hours the first night we met, there was
Speaker 1: an attraction there that made us talk to each other.
Speaker 1: It's not like we started talking to each other on
Speaker 1: the in the first second because we knew we were
Speaker 1: such great conversational lists. Like, we started talking because there
Speaker 1: was a there was an attraction. But then it felt easy,
Speaker 1: it felt like home. Somehow. It took me a minute
Speaker 1: to realize that. By the way, I'm not this wasn't
Speaker 1: a love at first sight story of like and then
Speaker 1: everything was smooth sailing, but it it did. It took
Speaker 1: me a while to realize, Oh, this is like, this
Speaker 1: is this feels like home. I'm more of myself around
Speaker 1: this person. And I think that's a beautiful thing to find,
Speaker 1: is someone who makes you more of yourself. And of
Speaker 1: course I think you know you can't if someone says
Speaker 1: to me, I've got zero sexual attraction to this person,
Speaker 1: that's a problem. It's a genuine problem. You have to
Speaker 1: have some form of attraction to the person you're with. Now,
Speaker 1: by the way, does it need to be the greatest
Speaker 1: attraction you've ever felt for anyone in your life? That
Speaker 1: trips a lot of people up. Because I always say,
Speaker 1: don't comparison shop for chemistry. It's one of the things
Speaker 1: I talk about in the book, because I think we
Speaker 1: were always comparing whatever is in front of us with
Speaker 1: the peak of our chemistry that we've had with someone
Speaker 1: that we can't seem to get over. But you only
Speaker 1: have to take a look at what are the situations
Speaker 1: that we find hard to get over, Like what was
Speaker 1: that peak of chemistry and attraction? And it's often in
Speaker 1: situations that were entirely unsustainable. It's you know, you go,
Speaker 1: you have a holiday romance with someone and oh God,
Speaker 1: like if i'd love to fill that animal attraction for
Speaker 1: someone who was good for me and who I had
Speaker 1: a long term relationship with. And it's like, well, how
Speaker 1: long did you know that person? Two weeks? They didn't
Speaker 1: have to do very much, Like it's easy to create
Speaker 1: the conditions for chemistry in that kind of a situation.
Speaker 1: The same is true of people who have a three
Speaker 1: month fling with someone where there's like it becomes more
Speaker 1: interesting because it's flaming really hot, and then it disappears.
Speaker 1: You know the woman who I coached who said, you know,
Speaker 1: this person was the one we had this amazing three
Speaker 1: month thing, And I said what happened? She was like, well,
Speaker 1: he went traveling and he said he didn't want to
Speaker 1: continue the relationship. And for me, that's like literal fireworks.
Speaker 1: You know, they fireworks. We look at them and they're
Speaker 1: really exciting and we get we're like, ah, isn't this magical?
Speaker 1: And you look at those fireworks. But if those fireworks
Speaker 1: carried on for three hours, aha, you'd be like this
Speaker 1: is I want to go home now? You would be bored.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: Right, for fireworks to be exciting left end, they have
Speaker 1: to end. So we have to be very careful about
Speaker 1: comparing the like slow burn energy of a real relationship
Speaker 1: with like that fast twitch muscle of a short term
Speaker 1: encounter or an affair that is naturally exciting because it's
Speaker 1: an affair. It's like, you know this serious. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I don't think you should absolutely have chemistry, but we
Speaker 1: have to be really careful with comparing chemistry with previous
Speaker 1: chemistry because that chemistry may not have lasted either if
Speaker 1: you'd actually got what you wanted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it makes so much sense. The idea you
Speaker 2: just the analogy you painted of the fireworks is a
Speaker 2: brilliant one because a real relationship is one that you
Speaker 2: don't want to end, and the chemistry based relationship is
Speaker 2: one that has to end, right, It has to come
Speaker 2: to an end, and for it to feel meaningful, and
Speaker 2: a real relationship, you never want to end. And that's
Speaker 2: why it feels meaningful. And that's where we're kind of
Speaker 2: stuck in between. And the thing I hear the most,
Speaker 2: and I asked my audience and my team a lot
Speaker 2: of questions before this interview because I know a lot
Speaker 2: of my audiences dating trying to figure it out. And
Speaker 2: one of the biggest things which we touched on here,
Speaker 2: but I want to ask you about, is that people
Speaker 2: find it overwhelming with the number of options they have today.
Speaker 2: And I've spoken to friends who are like, well, this
Speaker 2: guy's great, but maybe there's someone greater, right, and we're
Speaker 2: constantly living in this They're good, but maybe they're fifty percent,
Speaker 2: and maybe there's a fifty one, and then maybe there's
Speaker 2: a seventy nine, and maybe there's a ninety nine, because
Speaker 2: I can see someone else over there has a ninety nine,
Speaker 2: and so we keep second guessing even the person in
Speaker 2: front of us, even if they are fulfilling our needs
Speaker 2: because of the overwhelming number of options.
Speaker 3: Hey, everyone, it's Jay here.
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Speaker 2: to our store locator at Drinkjuni dot com and find
Speaker 2: Juni at a Target near you. So, how when you
Speaker 2: said you fell at home and you know, I think
Speaker 2: that's what people want to feel. They want to feel
Speaker 2: at home, they want to feel more than safe. But
Speaker 2: how do we know or would have been the best
Speaker 2: signs and indicators that people can look out for that
Speaker 2: they're actually making things harder for themselves by wishing, hoping,
Speaker 2: wanting someone else? Or is that a sign that you're
Speaker 2: not with the right person, that you feel that there
Speaker 2: is someone who has more.
Speaker 1: It's such a tough question because I think it's sometimes
Speaker 1: we're wanting something else because there's you know, the person
Speaker 1: that's in front of us isn't compelling enough. There really
Speaker 1: is something lacking in that relationship. But I do think
Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves what are the things I
Speaker 1: really must have for an amazing relationship? Like I For me,
Speaker 1: when I when I was going to ask Audrey to
Speaker 1: marry me, I literally called up a friend and told him,
Speaker 1: and he was like, you know, why are you doing that?
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, Like what he was it was almost
Speaker 1: like his way of testing whether I was ready or not,
Speaker 1: you know, whether I was just in some crazy like
Speaker 1: infatuation or and I said, you know, I'm I'm ready
Speaker 1: to build something in my life. I feel like for me,
Speaker 1: my my dating life was just like hitting reset all
Speaker 1: the time, and it was honestly at a certain point
Speaker 1: making me anxious like dating and being with different people,
Speaker 1: and it just didn't you know, there was a time
Speaker 1: in my life where that was really exciting, and then
Speaker 1: it started to just go the other way and I
Speaker 1: and I had to listen to that and go, this
Speaker 1: isn't this isn't going to work, Like I, this isn't
Speaker 1: where it's at this isn't making me happy, this isn't
Speaker 1: bringing me peace. The way that I was dating was
Speaker 1: it had almost like an addictive quality to it that
Speaker 1: was really unhealthy. And I thought, this isn't going to
Speaker 1: be a good look ten years from now. It's not
Speaker 1: going to make me feel good. It's not going to
Speaker 1: bring me more peace, which is a different By the way,
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you know how to give something up.
Speaker 1: When you have those realizations, you might realize eating healthier
Speaker 1: would be better for you, but it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: you've trained yourself to be able to do that. But
Speaker 1: I got to a point where I said, I want
Speaker 1: to build something now, and with Audrey, I thought, I
Speaker 1: in my head, I was like, I'll never find a
Speaker 1: better builder. And I said that to him, like I'll
Speaker 1: never find a better builder.
Speaker 3: This is.
Speaker 1: The builder for me. Like we're going to be able
Speaker 1: to do such amazing things together and the life will
Speaker 1: have and the you know, the high level of empathy
Speaker 1: and compassion, and you know, the person that I am
Speaker 1: with this person it you know, the way she makes
Speaker 1: me feel like that's that's truly special. And I'm not
Speaker 1: a you know, there's the one out there kind of
Speaker 1: a person. I've never been that way if you look
Speaker 1: anyone looks back through my videos, and you know this
Speaker 1: because we've spoken about it back when I was single.
Speaker 1: You know, I've never been a person who believes in
Speaker 1: the idea of the one. So I think that it's
Speaker 1: finding someone that we've you know, we look at what's
Speaker 1: really important to us, not what's important on an egoic level,
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of the things that make
Speaker 1: us question whether this person is right for us are
Speaker 1: ego based. I don't think they're based on how we
Speaker 1: feel around this person. We worry is this the kind
Speaker 1: of person my friends think that I should be with?
Speaker 1: Do they look the part? Are they my type? My
Speaker 1: normal type?
Speaker 3: Do they make the right amount of money?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like, is this has this person come in the
Speaker 1: package that I had always told myself they would come in?
Speaker 1: And those things can be really, really limiting, and they
Speaker 1: can have us like constantly trying to optimize for some
Speaker 1: version of something that we think we're supposed to be with,
Speaker 1: which is a very dangerous way to go about finding love.
Speaker 1: You can't optimize for human beings. You can optimize for
Speaker 1: a lot in life, but you're dealing with people. And
Speaker 1: by the way, even if you let go of this person,
Speaker 1: you're going to find someone else who's also imperfect, and
Speaker 1: they might Okay, this person is, you know, scores a
Speaker 1: seven in this area, and they score a nine. But
Speaker 1: guess what, they score a three in this other area
Speaker 1: that you didn't even know was great in this relationship
Speaker 1: because you took for granted how amazing that person was
Speaker 1: in that way, Like, it's very dangerous to optimize in
Speaker 1: that way in our love life life. And I've come
Speaker 1: to really believe in life that if you find a
Speaker 1: connection that has all the right raw materials and you
Speaker 1: both have the same level of commitment, then you can
Speaker 1: build something extraordinary together. And actually the extraordinary is the
Speaker 1: thing you sculpt together. It's no different from a career.
Speaker 1: You know, neither you nor I started by doing our
Speaker 1: dream version of this. It's evolved and evolved and evolved
Speaker 1: and evolved, and every year you sculpt it a little
Speaker 1: closer to your ideal way of doing it all. And
Speaker 1: along the way, you do a lot of things that
Speaker 1: you don't necessarily You're like, oh my god, I couldn't
Speaker 1: do this for a lifetime, and this part I thought
Speaker 1: I would enjoy and I didn't enjoy it nearly as
Speaker 1: much as I thought I would. I'm going to stop
Speaker 1: doing that. And you, you know, you you sculpt it
Speaker 1: like dream careers are sculpted, they're not found. And I
Speaker 1: think that that's true of relationships as well, Like I'm
Speaker 1: more grateful for my relationship with Audrey the more time
Speaker 1: goes on, Yes, because we keep sculpting it into something
Speaker 1: that's better and better what that requires, which is really
Speaker 1: hard for a lot of us, myself included for many years.
Speaker 1: And this was one of the things that I think
Speaker 1: really hurt me was I got myself into an incredibly
Speaker 1: indecisive state where I was constantly second guessing myself. And
Speaker 1: I you know, when we talk, when we when we
Speaker 1: think of what's like, what are we worried about in
Speaker 1: our love life? For so many of us, it's that
Speaker 1: we're going to settle. Yes, I'm going to settle for
Speaker 1: the wrong person. Well, I think we can actually start
Speaker 1: to reclaim the language of settling and make it into
Speaker 1: a very positive thing that what if it wasn't settling
Speaker 1: for what if you decided to settle on Because when
Speaker 1: you settle on someone, there's a power to that it's
Speaker 1: like you resolve to say, I'm going to settle on this.
Speaker 1: It's like people crossing a country when a country is
Speaker 1: you know, it's like people crossing America and deciding when
Speaker 1: to stop. At what point did the early settlers say
Speaker 1: this is good enough, I don't need to keep going,
Speaker 1: like I've found an amazing place. And when you find
Speaker 1: that place, you go I could live here. Then you
Speaker 1: settle on it. And it's only by settling on it
Speaker 1: that you can make it great. It's only by putting
Speaker 1: your attention on it like a laser, that you can
Speaker 1: see what it becomes. And I don't think that I
Speaker 1: ever really settled on anything in my love life in
Speaker 1: a way that gave it a chance to see what
Speaker 1: it could really become. And in this situation, I really
Speaker 1: gave myself that chance by saying I'm gonna I'm going
Speaker 1: to go all in on this. But or she was
Speaker 1: smart because she also saw that Audrey is ridiculously perceptive
Speaker 1: and in tune with people, and she saw in me
Speaker 1: early on like, oh, this is a pattern for him,
Speaker 1: and that doubt and that what do I want?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Is this right? And that she saw that early on
Speaker 1: and One of the things that she did was she
Speaker 1: she called me out firstly, and she was like, look,
Speaker 1: if you're I'm willing to like really see what this
Speaker 1: could be, and you don't seem to be in that
Speaker 1: place where you're like actually going all in and seeing
Speaker 1: what it could be. She said, So I don't want
Speaker 1: to continue if you're not going all in because I'm
Speaker 1: not like, I'm not here for someone half of someone's energy.
Speaker 1: And the way she phrased it was amazing because she
Speaker 1: said to me, look, that doesn't mean like six months
Speaker 1: from now we could break up. Yeah, you might decide
Speaker 1: this is wrong for you. I might decide it's wrong
Speaker 1: for me, and no one's the villain if that happens.
Speaker 1: But if you're not willing to go all in right
Speaker 1: now to at least see what it could be and
Speaker 1: give it your real effort, then then this has to
Speaker 1: end here for me. And what was for me what
Speaker 1: was amazing about that is that it lowered the stakes
Speaker 1: for me, especially when she said because I felt like,
Speaker 1: you know, in the past I had hurt well, I
Speaker 1: didn't feel like I had hurt people and I had
Speaker 1: been the villain, and I was like, I can't do
Speaker 1: this anymore because I also suffer from ridiculous guilt. So
Speaker 1: it was like, I can't do this again. I can't.
Speaker 1: I was like avoidant because I was like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to get close enough to anyone to hurt someone.
Speaker 1: If I hurt someone, I'm going to feel sick and
Speaker 1: that's going to haunt me, and then you know, I'm
Speaker 1: just making myself miserable and them, And so I had
Speaker 1: all this like stuff. And when she was like, you're
Speaker 1: not six months from now you decide this isn't for you,
Speaker 1: that's okay, You're allowed to do that. That lowered the
Speaker 1: stakes for me. But by also demanding as a standard,
Speaker 1: And that's what so much of this book is about
Speaker 1: how to raise your standards and what that looks like
Speaker 1: in practice, because I think the reason so many people
Speaker 1: never reached the point of real relationship is because they
Speaker 1: don't have standards for what they expect and how to
Speaker 1: communicate and know how to communicate those standards. But because
Speaker 1: she had a standard that she lowered the stakes, but
Speaker 1: she also had a high standard and said this is
Speaker 1: the price of entry for continuing. That allowed me to
Speaker 1: fully invest. And when I fully invested, that thing started
Speaker 1: to actually realize its potential and to we got to
Speaker 1: see what it actually was when I was showing up
Speaker 1: fully and she was showing up fully. So I sympathize
Speaker 1: with anyone who is struggling with those decisions in their
Speaker 1: love life. I don't judge anyone for it, because I
Speaker 1: struggled in my love life with this. I wrote a
Speaker 1: whole chapter of the book called never Satisfied because I
Speaker 1: related to that idea that you know, you find someone
Speaker 1: who you chase, who feels exciting to you, but they
Speaker 1: break your heart, you know, Or you go for someone
Speaker 1: who feels safe and you're bored. You're doubting yourself, you're
Speaker 1: doubting whether this is the right person, and you just
Speaker 1: sort of, you know, cycle between those two different extremes.
Speaker 1: And it became the not just a goal for me
Speaker 1: to help other people, it became a goal for myself
Speaker 1: to go I need to figure out how to be
Speaker 1: happy here, because otherwise I'm going to constantly oscillate between
Speaker 1: feeling suffering because I'm chasing someone who doesn't want me,
Speaker 1: or being with someone where i feel like I'm not
Speaker 1: fully there, and that's not fair to them, and it's
Speaker 1: not fair to myself, like I need to figure out
Speaker 1: a way to be happy here. So so much of
Speaker 1: this book is about finding that peace and that happiness
Speaker 1: that I feel really really lucky to have been able
Speaker 1: to find in my own life because it's it. You know,
Speaker 1: I wrote this book single, heartbroken, then dating, then you know,
Speaker 1: falling in love, and then the last edit, I did
Speaker 1: you know for two days on my honeymoon, Like that
Speaker 1: was a crazy arc for me. So it wasn't something
Speaker 1: that was created by a married person who was just like,
Speaker 1: here's all the answers. I was like, some of these
Speaker 1: chapters I wrote in the worst possible pain of my life.
Speaker 2: You know, you talked about standards then, and obviously that's
Speaker 2: such a big part of what you felt with Audrey
Speaker 2: in that moment. I think what scares us about setting
Speaker 2: standards is that we think it's going to scare someone away.
Speaker 2: So Audrey saying that to you requires so much self
Speaker 2: worth in her saying I may lose this guy if
Speaker 2: I say this, but I know that's where I'm at,
Speaker 2: you being vulnerable with that person many years ago saying
Speaker 2: I'm going to open up about my life and them
Speaker 2: saying that's not very attractive. I don't find that attractive.
Speaker 2: That was you, again trying to demonstrate and be vulnerable,
Speaker 2: but because you were with someone who wasn't emotionally compassionate
Speaker 2: enough to receive that, and because you didn't have enough
Speaker 2: self worth, you made it a weakness in yourself. It
Speaker 2: sounds like when Audrey said that to you, if you
Speaker 2: would have said, well, I'm not in, she would have
Speaker 2: been like, okay, cool, we're not in, then it's not happening.
Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like she would have been like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, he doesn't like me. I'm not good enough
Speaker 2: because she had a certain standard and that's what standards,
Speaker 2: whereas when you were trying to be vulnerable, it was
Speaker 2: like trying to be vulnerable, but it wasn't a standard yet.
Speaker 1: Well, I would say, no, it wasn't a standard. Tactics
Speaker 1: are different from standards. That's why I'm not that when
Speaker 1: I was being vulnerable, that was a tactic. But like
Speaker 1: we do constantly employ faux standards that aren't really standards.
Speaker 1: They're just a tactic. So she's like, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to text this person back so that I generate interest,
Speaker 1: and then if it doesn't generate interest, three days later
Speaker 1: we text them anyway. That's because it wasn't a standard,
Speaker 1: it was a tactic. Well, yeah, when something as tactic,
Speaker 1: we do to try and get a result, and if
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, we go for a different tactic. A
Speaker 1: standard is who we are and we don't change it.
Speaker 1: Like if my standard for being open and vulnerable was
Speaker 1: what I did in that moment with that person, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have stopped doing that just because I didn't get
Speaker 1: the result that I wanted, which was connection. I would
Speaker 1: have said, well, this is how I want to be.
Speaker 1: And come to think of it, one of I would
Speaker 1: have said, if I was in a better place, one
Speaker 1: of my greatest standards is to find someone who really
Speaker 1: accepts me. And if this person doesn't accept me, then
Speaker 1: my standard is going to be that, well, maybe this
Speaker 1: relationship isn't for me. You know, I want to be
Speaker 1: this vulnerable in a relationship. I want to be able
Speaker 1: to share from the heart both the good and the
Speaker 1: and the bad, and my flaws and my insecurities. And
Speaker 1: if I'm not accepted, then okay, maybe maybe it's not right.
Speaker 1: But instead what I did was I went down a
Speaker 1: very masochistic rabbit hole of going I'm not good enough.
Speaker 1: It's just been proven. I'm never going to reveal those
Speaker 1: weaknesses again. And I stayed right. So you're right about
Speaker 1: Audrey because I can guarantee you if I had not
Speaker 1: then said all right, I'm going to show up differently,
Speaker 1: she would have been out of there. And the big
Speaker 1: difference is we have to make the goal our happiness,
Speaker 1: not a person. You know, we think that we're going
Speaker 1: to be happy by getting a person, but you'll never
Speaker 1: be happy by getting a person that doesn't meet your needs.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how impressive you think they are. It
Speaker 1: doesn't that's the danger, right, that's the trap people fall into.
Speaker 1: I've fallen into it. Someone's particularly exciting, impressive, charismatic, gorgeous,
Speaker 1: there's something they have, all these things that you go,
Speaker 1: this makes them a very valuable person. And then you say, well,
Speaker 1: my needs don't really matter anymore. The only thing that
Speaker 1: matters is I can get this person. Because we think
Speaker 1: if I can get this person, then I'll be worthy
Speaker 1: and I'll be happy and it'll all work out. But
Speaker 1: everyone out there, you know, most people out there have
Speaker 1: been in a relationship where they thought it would be
Speaker 1: heaven to get someone, and then they experienced what the
Speaker 1: relationship was actually like when their needs weren't being met,
Speaker 1: when they didn't feel safe, when they didn't feel acknowledged,
Speaker 1: when they didn't receive someone's empathy, when they felt like
Speaker 1: they couldn't really be themselves around that person, when they
Speaker 1: felt like they were constantly clinging onto the relationship because
Speaker 1: they never you know, they're in a relationship with the person,
Speaker 1: but they never really felt like they had them. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a special kind of hell to be in a
Speaker 1: relationship like that, and at a certain point we have
Speaker 1: to come to realize that this is this is this relationship.
Speaker 1: I keep telling myself, I'm going to die if I lose.
Speaker 1: It is worthless if I don't get these couple of
Speaker 1: things that are missing. And so for me, one of
Speaker 1: the greatest ways to have a standard next time round
Speaker 1: is not you. There's a whole you know. I wrote
Speaker 1: two massive chapters in this book on how to be confident,
Speaker 1: But you don't even need confidence for standards in the beginning. Yes,
Speaker 1: you just need to know that I can never experience
Speaker 1: that again because it's too painful. It's like you don't
Speaker 1: need to if I put your hand in a flame,
Speaker 1: you don't need a standard or confidence to get out
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, you just you don't need self worth
Speaker 1: to get your hand out of the flame. It's just
Speaker 1: too painful. I can't do that again. And a lot
Speaker 1: of people, especially people who leave really abusive or difficult relationships,
Speaker 1: a lot of them, when they have enough time them
Speaker 1: away from it and they start to their nervous system
Speaker 1: calms down and they start to experience a different reality.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they look.
Speaker 1: Back and they're like, no matter how much I still
Speaker 1: may dream about that person or fantasize about that person,
Speaker 1: or you know, get sentimental about that relationship, when they
Speaker 1: really think about what it was like to be in
Speaker 1: it and what that person was like, they're like, I
Speaker 1: could never go back to being in that kind of
Speaker 1: a situation. So the necessity is the birthplace of standards
Speaker 1: before you ever increase your self worth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I love that because I think we get
Speaker 2: so locked into like self worth, self confidence, self esteem,
Speaker 2: and because that's a lifelong journey and a lifelong pursuit,
Speaker 2: you feel you can't have standards. But I want to
Speaker 2: go back to something you said, because I think this
Speaker 2: is we're really I'm really enjoying this conversation because I
Speaker 2: feel like we're really getting into this kind of subtle,
Speaker 2: nuanced space of what's really holding people back from having
Speaker 2: love in their life. And it's something you said earlier
Speaker 2: which I'm kind of connecting to what you're saying now,
Speaker 2: this difference between an egoic standard in your words, and
Speaker 2: then an emotive standard or an emotional standard. And maybe
Speaker 2: there's a better word for it that you've developed or
Speaker 2: come across, but I'm trying to separate it because I
Speaker 2: think an egoic standard is, well, yeah, that if they
Speaker 2: asked me out, they have to pay on the first date,
Speaker 2: so we start getting lost, or like an egoic standard
Speaker 2: is they should message me first, Like I don't think
Speaker 2: those are the types of standards that Audrey said to
Speaker 2: you or the kind of standard that you're recommending. There's
Speaker 2: this great my favorite TikTok page to follow in the
Speaker 2: world is called Guy with the List.
Speaker 3: Have you seen this guy?
Speaker 2: So what he does is he will take random videos
Speaker 2: of girls who share their X and they are hilarious, right,
Speaker 2: they are the most ridiculous things. Like it's like I
Speaker 2: don't like guys who work out with their mates all
Speaker 2: the way through to I don't like eyes with a
Speaker 2: big bum right, whatever it may be. And this guy,
Speaker 2: what he'll do is he'll take the clip of a
Speaker 2: girl saying that, and then he'll go to his notes
Speaker 2: page in Apple and additors list and things have not
Speaker 2: to be it's the best page in the world.
Speaker 1: So it's just the longest list.
Speaker 2: He's on seven hundred and ninety four the last time
Speaker 2: I saw, and it's like a guy with the list.
Speaker 3: It's brilliant.
Speaker 2: And the reason I bring it up is because I
Speaker 2: think that's what we think standards are now, and I
Speaker 2: think to your point earlier, I think you labeled it
Speaker 2: an egoic standard. So walk us through how we transform
Speaker 2: our egoic standards into I'm calling them emotional standards whatever
Speaker 2: the right word is. How do we transfer them over
Speaker 2: because I think we think we're setting standards, but their
Speaker 2: standards like he's got to pay on the first day,
Speaker 2: she better text me first. I won't reply for a
Speaker 2: week the example you gave, And I think that's what's
Speaker 2: tripping us up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's almost like there's standards that
Speaker 1: arise from ego and there's standards arise from what's going
Speaker 1: to make us happy, and that the two are often
Speaker 1: completely different, right, because actually the things that make us
Speaker 1: happy can be much more subtle and less prescriptive than
Speaker 1: the things that feed our ego in some way. There's
Speaker 1: two points I want to make about this. The first
Speaker 1: one is in relation to the kind of inherent judgment
Speaker 1: that is in so many of those X and so
Speaker 1: many of those things. I would never want someone who's
Speaker 1: like this. I would never want someone who does that.
Speaker 3: I would.
Speaker 1: We write people off at lightning speed, and not just
Speaker 1: entirely superficial things, but ways that people are not like us. Right,
Speaker 1: So you've got people who are like, oh, if they're
Speaker 1: not into especially like you know, your audience is into
Speaker 1: self development. My audience tends to be into self development.
Speaker 1: It's very easy for someone who gets into self development
Speaker 1: to suddenly be like, I want somebody else who's into
Speaker 1: self development? Yeah, right, And I get that question all
Speaker 1: the time, Like, now that I'm doing all of this
Speaker 1: growth work, I want someone who can keep up. I
Speaker 1: want someone who's on my level. And I want to
Speaker 1: remind people like you weren't doing this two years ago,
Speaker 1: Like this is in a way, this is like a
Speaker 1: complete contempt you have for you two years ago, well
Speaker 1: before like a certain mentor or influence or something came
Speaker 1: into your life and turned you onto something. There's also
Speaker 1: a slight arrogance about the standards, you know, these things
Speaker 1: we have because it's you know, someone could have lived
Speaker 1: on a farm their whole life, and I have no
Speaker 1: idea what self development even is as a kind of
Speaker 1: idea a concept, let alone that there's this entire industry
Speaker 1: around it. And they may have a wisdom that you
Speaker 1: never picked up on in the world that you grew
Speaker 1: up in, and that might be one of the greatest
Speaker 1: bits of synergy between the two of you, is the
Speaker 1: wisdom you bring and the wisdom they bring that's different
Speaker 1: and it has come from a very different place, a
Speaker 1: very different way of living. So, you know, I think
Speaker 1: there's a lack of humility sometimes in thinking that people
Speaker 1: have to be like us and then judging them for
Speaker 1: the ways that they're not like us. And a lot
Speaker 1: of the way we judge other people arises out of
Speaker 1: a lack of self compassion because we haven't really accepted ourselves.
Speaker 1: We haven't really you know, I know, every time I
Speaker 1: got punched in the face by life, every time, like
Speaker 1: I took a big hit and I, you know, experienced
Speaker 1: a really bad heartbreak that was a big one for me,
Speaker 1: like a very humbling experience for me. I experienced years
Speaker 1: of chronic physical pain, and when that happened in my life,
Speaker 1: I like truly just hit a kind of bottom because
Speaker 1: I just didn't know how I would ever. I tried
Speaker 1: everything in the world and I couldn't make this pain
Speaker 1: go away. And it started to basically not just ruin
Speaker 1: my life because I felt like I couldn't experience joy anymore.
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about my pain all day every day.
Speaker 1: But it also robbed me of my confidence because I
Speaker 1: started to feel like, Wow, no one's going to be
Speaker 1: attracted to this version of me that is so frail
Speaker 1: and fragile and doesn't feel like I really didn't identify
Speaker 1: as the heroic version of me anymore. I was like,
Speaker 1: this is I'm going to be perceived as pathetic by
Speaker 1: someone who wants like a strong person because I feel
Speaker 1: so on the edge of breaking the whole time, because
Speaker 1: anyone with chronic physical pain knows that it's so centralizing
Speaker 1: and even doing basic things can feel like it's too much.
Speaker 1: But my point is that that going through those things
Speaker 1: in life. It allowed me to access a level of
Speaker 1: compassion for other people because I was like, God, how
Speaker 1: many people have I written off in my life because
Speaker 1: you know, they're this way or they're that way, or
Speaker 1: they're you know, and look at me right now, I'm
Speaker 1: like on the floor.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I found that as I came to accept more
Speaker 1: of myself and be honest about my own stuff and
Speaker 1: not just the things going wrong in my life, but
Speaker 1: even just difficulties. Like if you have a jealous moment
Speaker 1: and it makes you a little crazy, then you're not
Speaker 1: so quick to call other people crazy when they you know,
Speaker 1: react to insecurity they have and it makes them do
Speaker 1: something extreme in that moment, you know, like that, well,
Speaker 1: you she's crazy. You can't believe what she did, Like
Speaker 1: she's so she's crazy. It's like you don't. You don't
Speaker 1: throw that around when you know you've done your share
Speaker 1: of like crazy because you were in pain and you
Speaker 1: didn't know how to how to cope with it, you
Speaker 1: know it. So I've I've found that the more the
Speaker 1: more I've like been humbled in life, and the more
Speaker 1: I've become accepting of myself and compassionate towards myself. Actually,
Speaker 1: the more it's made space for everyone else, because now
Speaker 1: I wouldn't if I was single again, I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: writing off people on all of those things that I
Speaker 1: might have written people off for eight years ago or
Speaker 1: ten years ago. I actually think I would have more options,
Speaker 1: not less. People say I'm growing so much, I've got
Speaker 1: so few options now because so many few people are
Speaker 1: on my level. I'm like, if you're really growing, I
Speaker 1: actually think it makes space for more people because you've
Speaker 1: become more compact and more accepting, and you see the
Speaker 1: soul of that person underneath those behaviors and the way
Speaker 1: they are, which kind of brings me on to my
Speaker 1: other point, which was when you know the person says
Speaker 1: they didn't pay on the date they invited me, and
Speaker 1: then you know they didn't pay for the whole check
Speaker 1: or whatever. I think. We're we're not always good at
Speaker 1: getting behind why someone is the way they are, Like,
Speaker 1: what's really driving the way they are? Does this person
Speaker 1: have the same values as me? They might do something
Speaker 1: different on the surface, but underneath that might be the
Speaker 1: same value. We just have arrived at different points, Like
Speaker 1: my wife's a vegetarian, I eat meat, like we both
Speaker 1: love animals. Sincerely, I love animals. She makes jokes about me,
Speaker 1: you know how much. You know how I am with
Speaker 1: animals is one of her favorite things in the world,
Speaker 1: eat them, and she doesn't like We've arrived at different places,
Speaker 1: but underneath it all is like the same beating heart.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the thing we're quick to write
Speaker 1: off when we make those really quick judgments about people.
Speaker 1: And that's not to say like there are certain you know,
Speaker 1: red flags that might come up with someone where you go,
Speaker 1: you know what, not worth finding out what's behind this
Speaker 1: because it's just too severe and I don't, I really
Speaker 1: don't like this, and it has been a major warning
Speaker 1: sign for me in the past. But I think that's
Speaker 1: that's different than taking something like you know, someone someone
Speaker 1: didn't pay half the bill, or someone didn't pay the
Speaker 1: whole bill, and like I I know that. I used
Speaker 1: to think to myself, I really enjoy paying the bill,
Speaker 1: but if someone didn't offer for me, I would be
Speaker 1: like it. And this is even my judgment, right, because
Speaker 1: that for them, it might just be conditioning and it
Speaker 1: might be even There were times where even spoke up
Speaker 1: about it where I found myself paying constantly, and I
Speaker 1: got brave enough to say, hey, it makes me feel
Speaker 1: kind of taken for granted that you don't ever offer
Speaker 1: to pay. You know, I've been in situations like that
Speaker 1: in the past, and sometimes if you said that to someone,
Speaker 1: they'd be like, oh my god, I feel awful, like
Speaker 1: they're so embarrassed, and they're like they will then feel
Speaker 1: shame about it and be like, god, I you know,
Speaker 1: they look at themselves and they're like, oh, I slipped
Speaker 1: into a pattern there that I don't like, especially if
Speaker 1: I expressed that it's not that I hate it's not
Speaker 1: that I don't like paying, it's that I don't feel
Speaker 1: like we're a team. You know, that might make someone
Speaker 1: go well, I value being part of a team as well,
Speaker 1: and I actually don't like that you don't feel like
Speaker 1: I'm a great teammate. That's the last thing in the
Speaker 1: world I'd ever want to be. So now like you
Speaker 1: can actually come together because of a moment where you
Speaker 1: say something like that. But I know if I was
Speaker 1: on a date when I was single and someone didn't
Speaker 1: even offer, and by the way, I would still pay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I still wouldn't let them. But if someone didn't offer it,
Speaker 1: it would be there would be a little piece of
Speaker 1: me that would be like, that doesn't feel like teamwork.
Speaker 1: And maybe you know, maybe fine, if someone invites you
Speaker 1: on a date and they let you pay half, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe you say I don't I didn't love that, but
Speaker 1: maybe you see like maybe that needs to play out
Speaker 1: once or twice more before you decide everything that means
Speaker 1: about the person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think you just said the nail on
Speaker 2: the head. It's like actually having and I know this
Speaker 2: isn't sexy and it's not popular, but it is what
Speaker 2: you're trying to say that having the clarifying conversation around
Speaker 2: why someone behaves the way they do is far more
Speaker 2: useful as to whether this relationship has a future than
Speaker 2: what they do. So the fact that you're paying or
Speaker 2: someone's not paying actually doesn't show anything unless you had
Speaker 2: a conversation about why that's the case, and actually how
Speaker 2: they deal with that conversation and how they respond to
Speaker 2: it is going to give you all the notes you
Speaker 2: need as to whether this relationship has a future or not.
Speaker 2: Because what ends up happening that's with a very tangible
Speaker 2: thing with paying, There could be something that person does
Speaker 2: that annoys you, and you let it go for the
Speaker 2: first month. You let it go for the first three months.
Speaker 2: Now you move in and it triggers you and you're like, God,
Speaker 2: can you just stop doing that? You've been doing it
Speaker 2: for nine months now. And they're like, well, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: why didn't you just tell me that? And it's like, well,
Speaker 2: if we actually talked about it on month one. I
Speaker 2: know Ridley and I have had so many conversations like that,
Speaker 2: And it is true that as you spend more time together,
Speaker 2: a you discover more things you disagree on, and B
Speaker 2: you discover more things you're grateful for. They're both happening
Speaker 2: at the same time, and the disagreement doesn't turn into
Speaker 2: a disconnect because you have the skills to say, I
Speaker 2: know how this person deals with challenging conversations because we've
Speaker 2: had them for so long. We're not waiting for three
Speaker 2: years to hear to have our first challenging conversation because
Speaker 2: we've already had them about less important things. And now
Speaker 2: that we're growing up together, they're like, you know, I
Speaker 2: think a lot of people aren't having the early conversation.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to that, how do we want
Speaker 2: to raise kids? Where do we want to live? What
Speaker 2: do you want to all? These are harder conversations if
Speaker 2: you haven't talked about who should pay for the bill,
Speaker 2: because these are much more, bigger, emotional conditioned decisions where
Speaker 2: people have far more stuff to pull from as to how.
Speaker 3: They make it.
Speaker 1: So it's so much to say about all of God, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. And Christopher Hitchins used to say, it's
Speaker 1: more important how someone thinks than what they think, And
Speaker 1: I think that we never when we're being too judgmental
Speaker 1: or assumptive. We don't necessarily learn how someone thinks. We
Speaker 1: learn what they think, and then we discard them based
Speaker 1: on what they think or what they do. You're absolutely
Speaker 1: right that by having the conversation, you see how they
Speaker 1: deal with the conversation itself, which should, by the way,
Speaker 1: for anyone wanting a serious relationship, it should that should
Speaker 1: be like, one of your baseline needs is that I
Speaker 1: need someone who is willing to have real conversations with
Speaker 1: me where we can acknowledge things, because someone who can't
Speaker 1: acknowledge things can't grow right. It's like one of the
Speaker 1: key features of narcissism is the inability to admit wrongdoing
Speaker 1: and that breeds incompetence, by the way, because if you
Speaker 1: can't admit wrongdoing and take ownership, you can't get better
Speaker 1: at something. So you know, whether you're dealing with narcissism
Speaker 1: or just someone who can't see themselves clearly or can't
Speaker 1: acknowledge the way you feel or the way something they've
Speaker 1: done has made you feel. If you're in that situation,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a rough relationship. So how soon
Speaker 1: do you want to find out? The way the two
Speaker 1: of you engage on that level? But it's also engaging
Speaker 1: on that level is a form. This is I think
Speaker 1: what we've what we forget is that well, let me
Speaker 1: make two points about this. That I wrote an entire
Speaker 1: chapter in this book on hard conversations, not just because
Speaker 1: we tend to avoid them at all costs because we
Speaker 1: don't like them. Like it's like, you know in fight Club,
Speaker 1: where you know, he says, like most men will do
Speaker 1: anything to avoid a fight, Like it's like most people
Speaker 1: will do anything to avoid a hard conversation because we
Speaker 1: just hate it's awkward, it's embarrassing. You know, we probably
Speaker 1: many of us grew up not being good at confrontation
Speaker 1: or not being taught how to have healthy confrontation, and
Speaker 1: so we avoid it and we hold on to it,
Speaker 1: and we hold onto it, and we're afraid what will
Speaker 1: happen if we speak up about our needs. I know
Speaker 1: that one thing I did a disservice to people that
Speaker 1: I had in my love life in previous times of
Speaker 1: my life because the times where I might have really
Speaker 1: needed some time to myself, I didn't express it. And
Speaker 1: then by not expressing it because I was afraid, I
Speaker 1: then became like resentful and avoidant and started to push
Speaker 1: that person away because I had just decided my needs
Speaker 1: couldn't be met in this relationship with giving them a
Speaker 1: chance to even see that part of me and show
Speaker 1: up for me in that way. So we do that
Speaker 1: all the way to the beginning of dating. You know,
Speaker 1: we do that when we see you know that I
Speaker 1: joke in the book about red flags because I'm like,
Speaker 1: if we listen to every single piece of advice on
Speaker 1: the internet about what's a red flag, not only would
Speaker 1: everyone be undtable, so would we like I'd be excluded
Speaker 1: from the dating Paul, because I for sure have some
Speaker 1: of those red flags or have at some point in
Speaker 1: my life. So, you know, we and that's I don't
Speaker 1: want to be hypocritical. I've been a contributor to the
Speaker 1: advice on red flags, but like when you start adding
Speaker 1: them all up, you're like, oh my god, is there
Speaker 1: any room for mistakes? Is there any room for someone
Speaker 1: to do something that you know isn't them on their
Speaker 1: best day? Now, Robert Green, I heard him say, you know,
Speaker 1: if someone does something, pay attention to that, because nobody
Speaker 1: ever does anything once. If they did it once, it's
Speaker 1: a pattern. I think that's an amazing Like if I
Speaker 1: was creating a survival guide for life, that would go
Speaker 1: in it because it's great advice. But I also know
Speaker 1: that there's things I've done in my life or my
Speaker 1: relationship that I did once, especially after a hard conversation
Speaker 1: I felt bad about and decided I don't want to
Speaker 1: be that person or I don't want to do that again.
Speaker 1: So we do want to reserve some space in life
Speaker 1: for the fact that we can learn, we can adapt,
Speaker 1: we can progress. What I know for sure is that
Speaker 1: people don't progress without the hard conversations. What we ignore,
Speaker 1: we tacitly approve, and what we point out bravely, albeit
Speaker 1: there are elegant ways to do it and I show
Speaker 1: people elegant ways to do it in the book. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that to me is then you're looking for progress, like
Speaker 1: is when I've mentioned it is does it bring us
Speaker 1: closer together? Because in the right situation, communicating should actually
Speaker 1: bring you closer together. It shouldn't. Then you shouldn't feel
Speaker 1: gas lit, you shouldn't feel like you're called crazy or difficult,
Speaker 1: or that should actually bring you together. And then our
Speaker 1: standard has to be that by having that conversation, I
Speaker 1: need to see progress in that area. And if I
Speaker 1: don't see progress in that area, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: ignore the fact that there's been no progress in that area.
Speaker 1: But if there's no progress now it has become a
Speaker 1: kind of a delusional thing to expect that they are
Speaker 1: going to change. But I can't stress this enough. We
Speaker 1: in our love lives today, everyone is really really good
Speaker 1: at and rightly so I'm not this is what they're
Speaker 1: talking about is real. But we're really good at complaining
Speaker 1: about what dating is like today and how hard it is,
Speaker 1: And it is like it It is hard. Finding love
Speaker 1: is hard. It is the wild West. There is so
Speaker 1: much bad behavior, there's so many ways to just God,
Speaker 1: there's just so many ways for it to be bad,
Speaker 1: and unfortunately for us, our love life is an area
Speaker 1: we can influence, but we can't control it to the
Speaker 1: level of precision that we can other areas of our lives.
Speaker 1: If we want to lose weight, we can eat better
Speaker 1: and we can work out, and our body will change.
Speaker 1: May not get to our perfect weight, but it will
Speaker 1: change reliably. In your love life, you can go on
Speaker 1: a day every day for the next year and still
Speaker 1: not find love, or you can find love and six
Speaker 1: months later that person cheats on you and leaves you,
Speaker 1: and you're back to square one. It's a maddening area
Speaker 1: in many ways because we deeply want to find love.
Speaker 1: It is one of the most human of desires is
Speaker 1: to find love, and it panics us at first. It
Speaker 1: frustrates us, and it makes us angry. But at some point,
Speaker 1: for many people it panics them because they're worried I'm
Speaker 1: never going to meet anyone. We can't just decide I'm
Speaker 1: going to find love in the next three months and
Speaker 1: make it happen. But what we have to start taking
Speaker 1: ownership of and where we have to start taking our
Speaker 1: power back, is that you can go into your dating
Speaker 1: life from a place of leadership, and so many people
Speaker 1: I think go in with a state of following. What's
Speaker 1: the level right now of people's effort, what's the level
Speaker 1: of men's chivalry, what's the level of whether people pick
Speaker 1: up the phone or not instead of relentlessly texting. What's
Speaker 1: the level of communication between dates or what I can
Speaker 1: expect from someone in terms of assurances that we're just
Speaker 1: seeing each other. Like there's all this rhetoric about where
Speaker 1: things are and people don't try anymore and no one
Speaker 1: wants to commit and so on. But if you're not careful,
Speaker 1: you can get into a really passive state about all
Speaker 1: Mitch Albums said, if you don't like the culture, you
Speaker 1: have to be brave enough to create your own. I
Speaker 1: love that, and by the way, that's what we do
Speaker 1: in business, right. That's what you've done in your business,
Speaker 1: is that you've created a culture that you love, that
Speaker 1: is right for you, and that's what you you know,
Speaker 1: in the most positive way, infect your team with is
Speaker 1: that beautiful culture and that amazing way that you see
Speaker 1: the world and the way that you do things, and
Speaker 1: it makes your organization unlike any other in the world.
Speaker 1: It's got your thumbprint on it. That's the beauty in
Speaker 1: a way of starting a business is that you get
Speaker 1: to do it your way and our love life can
Speaker 1: be the same. We can decide what's the culture that
Speaker 1: I want to have instead of commenting on culture, what's
Speaker 1: the culture I want to create in my love life?
Speaker 1: If someone you know, if I'm sick of this whole
Speaker 1: constant texting thing, or why don't I be the one
Speaker 1: to leave someone a voice note today? Like why if
Speaker 1: someone's just sent me the fiftieth text, why don't I
Speaker 1: send them back when they ask me how am I
Speaker 1: doing today? Why not just say maybe it's too scary
Speaker 1: to call them, but maybe I just leave a voice
Speaker 1: note and say, hey, how you doing. I thought i'd
Speaker 1: you know, I thought i'd leave you a voice note.
Speaker 1: I'm out with my sister right now. We're in Ikea.
Speaker 1: We're trying to find furniture for this thing. I'll send
Speaker 1: you a picture because I am dreading getting home and
Speaker 1: having to actually make this. Tell me about your day,
Speaker 1: like how you doing? Blah blah blah. Like you know,
Speaker 1: you can inject a different level of energy and enthusiasm
Speaker 1: or sexiness or flirtatiousness or whatever it may be. A
Speaker 1: little laugh here, that's endearing. You can do all of
Speaker 1: that in a voice note in a way that when
Speaker 1: someone listens to it, now it's not just another text
Speaker 1: on their phone. You're like attacking a different sense. And
Speaker 1: that will increase the level of intimacy even just by
Speaker 1: one percent two percent, And that might just make you like,
Speaker 1: that's leadership because you're not just we spend so much
Speaker 1: time mirroring people like I'm going to mirror how someone
Speaker 1: else is, what someone else is giving me, and this
Speaker 1: this person I'm seeing, But we have to start modeling
Speaker 1: more like it. Don't get me wrong. If you model
Speaker 1: behavior that you want to see by being the one
Speaker 1: who picks up the phone first or leaves the voice
Speaker 1: note and then they don't meet you there, then you
Speaker 1: can say, Okay, I'm going to start to mirror their
Speaker 1: lack of investment. I'm going to start to back off.
Speaker 1: But you can't just be in a state of mirroring
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 3: Like this is such a good point.
Speaker 1: It works on every level. Man, I was at my
Speaker 1: coffee shop this morning and there's a guy there that
Speaker 1: really like we always have like a really nice, like
Speaker 1: three minute conversation, and this morning like it never goes
Speaker 1: further than that. But this morning as he was going
Speaker 1: to the coffee bar, he said, can I get you
Speaker 1: a coffee?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: Like I remember in that moment, I thought that was
Speaker 1: like a little moment of like vulnerability and leadership. That
Speaker 1: was like had the potential to upgrade the relationship.
Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like this is just another guy in a coffee shop,
Speaker 1: but it was like, oh we might hear you offered
Speaker 1: me a coffee. I say yes, And now like our
Speaker 1: relationship is one way, you got me a Coffeeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and now we might sit for ten minutes so on.
Speaker 1: That's how things move, but they can't move if you're
Speaker 1: in this like fearful protectionist. I don't want to get hurt.
Speaker 1: I don't want to give more than the other person.
Speaker 1: I don't want to That's not a good standard to have.
Speaker 1: A great standard to have is lead and model the
Speaker 1: kind of culture you want to see. And if someone
Speaker 1: doesn't meet you there, that's where the standard comes in. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's where you of course the standard is modeling. But
Speaker 1: the counter standard if they don't meet you there is
Speaker 1: to say this isn't someone I'm going to continue modeling
Speaker 1: that kind of investment for because they're not meeting me there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is Oh man, that is so well put.
Speaker 2: And I'm so glad that you made that so clear
Speaker 2: because I couldn't agree with you more. I feel like
Speaker 2: we're limiting ourselves so much and we're actually creating what
Speaker 2: you just ended on there. It's a really powerful point.
Speaker 2: We're actually creating a culture that even if this relationship lasts,
Speaker 2: it will be set at the wrong level. So the
Speaker 2: culture of that relationship now is we sometimes text, we
Speaker 2: rarely call, and now, even if the relationship lasts and
Speaker 2: we do like each other a little bit, it's never
Speaker 2: going to change from that. So you're way better off
Speaker 2: setting the standard and the culture from day one and
Speaker 2: seeing if it develops and grows. And I find what
Speaker 2: most people do, and I think we've all experienced this
Speaker 2: is for three to six months we try and not
Speaker 2: disrupt the culture, and then six months later we're like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: but I always wanted this, and I thought we were
Speaker 2: going to get there, and the person's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: but this is what we are. And I remember that Radi,
Speaker 2: who's the only person I've ever been with since I
Speaker 2: left the monastery like it was like she was the
Speaker 2: person that I was fully clear with about who I was,
Speaker 2: what are my expectations were, where we were, and thankfully
Speaker 2: she was that back too. And we had some really
Speaker 2: hard conversations early on about some big things that were
Speaker 2: important to her, not important to me, important to me,
Speaker 2: not important to her. And what I loved was how
Speaker 2: we talked about those things and how we kind of
Speaker 2: navigated those things. And it's not that we're perfect and
Speaker 2: we don't have issues. We have so many challenges. You know,
Speaker 2: we've been together for eleven years now. There's so many
Speaker 2: things that have come up over the years that have
Speaker 2: given us different challenges. But the difference is we set
Speaker 2: a culture of how to deal with difficult things early on.
Speaker 2: And I think what I hear time and time again,
Speaker 2: and I know you hear this probably ten xt the
Speaker 2: amount I hear this. It all comes down to the
Speaker 2: fact that we want people to like us so bad
Speaker 2: that we're willing to act unlike ourselves in order for
Speaker 2: them to like us. Because if they can like a
Speaker 2: version of us, then that's good enough for us. And
Speaker 2: so if the version is I never bother you, I
Speaker 2: never text, I never call you, We will be that
Speaker 2: person for you because that makes you like me. We
Speaker 2: all love to be referred to as that person who's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: they're low maintenance, and we love that label. We're like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm low maintenance, and inside we're like, yeah, I've got
Speaker 2: way more needs than this. But guess what I've set
Speaker 2: the culture of being low maintenance. Now a year later
Speaker 2: they're like, wait a minute, you were low maintenance here ago.
Speaker 2: Why are you high maintenance? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And there's two problems with that. One is that it
Speaker 1: can actually make it so that someone can't even really
Speaker 1: read us or our intentions. It's a bit like when
Speaker 1: someone is like, wants to be calling indifferent. Well, if
Speaker 1: there's a story I tell in the book of a
Speaker 1: friend of mine who was dating someone and then went
Speaker 1: on a trip and he didn't really reach out to
Speaker 1: her on that trip, and by the time he got
Speaker 1: home after a few days, she said to him on
Speaker 1: the phone. It the fact that you were away and
Speaker 1: you didn't really speak to me made me feel funny,
Speaker 1: made me feel like you may have been sharing your
Speaker 1: bed with someone else and they hadn't been on Like
Speaker 1: this isn't two people who had been dating for six moneys.
Speaker 1: They'd been on a couple of dates, but that was
Speaker 1: the moment when he said to me, I think I
Speaker 1: liked this person because there was an intentionality to it.
Speaker 1: She didn't go, I'm being high maintenance by saying this,
Speaker 1: she just communicated what she was feeling. And by doing that,
Speaker 1: instead of being cool indifferent girl like chill, I'm chill,
Speaker 1: Like I don't care that you didn't text me while
Speaker 1: you're away, she went, no, no, no, no. It made
Speaker 1: me feel funny, Yeah, because it would. The subtext is
Speaker 1: it would hurt me to know, like maybe we haven't
Speaker 1: known each other that long, but it would still make
Speaker 1: me feel something to know that you'd shared your bed
Speaker 1: with someone else while you were away. That's a very
Speaker 1: powerful thing to do, because if he's seeing multiple people
Speaker 1: in that moment, all of them playing cool, indifferent whatever,
Speaker 1: he now sees someone who who is actually telegraphing the
Speaker 1: kind of person she is, that she's a three dimensional
Speaker 1: person with real feelings and that she wants something more.
Speaker 1: She is not the kind of person to date if
Speaker 1: you don't want something more. And by the way, even
Speaker 1: the first time someone gets like it's just a little
Speaker 1: bit jealous of something can be a moment of intentionality
Speaker 1: in a relationship because you the moment you see someone's
Speaker 1: a little bit like, they convey a little bit of
Speaker 1: even if it's playful jealousy. I don't like that made
Speaker 1: me feel funny. You're not allowed to text that, but whatever,
Speaker 1: you can go you it almost can make you like
Speaker 1: that person more because you can go, oh, that's like
Speaker 1: it's almost like you've telegraphed that we've gone to a
Speaker 1: new level where jealousy is even possible. Yeah, because at
Speaker 1: the beginning, jealousy wasn't even possible, and now it is.
Speaker 1: You must like me. I think I like you too.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like there's a we're so afraid of
Speaker 1: saying these things that actually telegraph intentionality, which is a
Speaker 1: really really powerful thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it all comes down back to the root
Speaker 2: of we're so scared because we're scared that that person
Speaker 2: will leave, and often they will because their friends saying
Speaker 2: to them, oh yeah, man, their psycho are their obsessive
Speaker 2: leave right, And so we don't want these extreme labels,
Speaker 2: and I think often so we're scared of looking unattractive,
Speaker 2: we're scared of being unwanted. We're scared of being rejected, right,
Speaker 2: That's the reason we don't say any of this because
Speaker 2: we're like, if I say that, they're going to think
Speaker 2: I'm psycho crazy, obsessed, and I don't want to come
Speaker 2: across that way, and so I won't say anything until
Speaker 2: one year on which, by the way, they're going to
Speaker 2: think the same exact thing when it's a full surprise.
Speaker 2: So I want to talk to you about that. And
Speaker 2: then the other idea that I see a lot of
Speaker 2: that people get stuck on is when they say something,
Speaker 2: they say it as a demand or a command, where
Speaker 2: it's like, well, I expect you to do this. And
Speaker 2: that's where I think it's unhealthy because I like someone
Speaker 2: being honest with me, but I also don't want that
Speaker 2: to be my progress report because I may have a
Speaker 2: really good thing to say back. And so if I'm
Speaker 2: going to say back, if someone was like if someone
Speaker 2: said that to me, like you didn't contact me, I'll
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, you know what. When I travel, I
Speaker 2: actually really struggle to stay in touch with anyone because
Speaker 2: I'm really trying to be present. I'm really trying to immerse.
Speaker 2: But now that I know that's a value for you,
Speaker 2: next time I go away, let's talk about how often
Speaker 2: we can both keep in touch realistically, because I'm also
Speaker 2: not going to promise I'm going to call you every
Speaker 2: single day, even if I'm really excited about you, because
Speaker 2: I'm also going to set my standard back. And I
Speaker 2: think often people don't want to hear that.
Speaker 3: Either.
Speaker 2: They want to hear someone say, oh, of course, I
Speaker 2: understand everything you're saying, and I'm going to call you
Speaker 2: every day when I go away again. And so one
Speaker 2: side is you're scared of getting fully rejected, and the
Speaker 2: other side is you're scared of not getting exactly what
Speaker 2: you want. And I don't think both those expectations are
Speaker 2: useful because you might get rejected and you're never going
Speaker 2: to get exactly what you want in an authentic way.
Speaker 1: No, And I think that's why we if we're the
Speaker 1: one who wants something, we have to zoom out enough
Speaker 1: to look at whether this person and what they bring
Speaker 1: to our life and what this relationship is like holistically
Speaker 1: is enough for us. Because we may say I want
Speaker 1: this person to call me every day, but that may
Speaker 1: genuinely not be their style, right. It's they're not someone
Speaker 1: who enjoys sitting on the phone as much as you do.
Speaker 1: They might pick up the phone and call you every
Speaker 1: couple of days, but in the meantime they will text
Speaker 1: you or you have to It's like you have to
Speaker 1: zoom out and go. How much of this relationship, not
Speaker 1: these moments, whether they call or not. How much of
Speaker 1: this relationship correct meets my needs? You know, what are
Speaker 1: the fundamental things? Well, I need to feel safe with someone,
Speaker 1: like I need to feel like they actually want me
Speaker 1: and that I'm not kind of investing under a misapprehension
Speaker 1: about what this is. I need to know at a
Speaker 1: certain point that regardless of our differences, we're giving this
Speaker 1: a go and we're exclusive. So that might be one thing.
Speaker 1: Another thing is I need to feel like whether it's
Speaker 1: on the exact platform I might have hoped, I need
Speaker 1: to feel like I get enough communication, you know, holistically
Speaker 1: in this relationship to feel like I'm actually connected to
Speaker 1: this person. You know, if someone very very rarely travels
Speaker 1: and then they go away and you don't hear from
Speaker 1: them a lot when they travel, that may not be
Speaker 1: a big deal. If they're on the road half the
Speaker 1: year and then they're not really connecting with you while
Speaker 1: they're traveling that's going to have a much bigger impact
Speaker 1: on your life. It doesn't make them wrong, but it
Speaker 1: might not be enough for you. Yeah, and that's where
Speaker 1: we have to start getting really honest with ourselves. We
Speaker 1: get so caught up in who's right and wrong, and
Speaker 1: we don't spend enough time just asking is it right
Speaker 1: for me? Does this person work well with me? Are
Speaker 1: we compatible? And compatibility is everything you know you can't.
Speaker 1: I talk about four levels of importance in any relationship
Speaker 1: or any person, any dynamic you have with a person.
Speaker 1: The first one is admiration. That's just you admiring someone.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean very much. They may not even know
Speaker 1: you exist. The second one is mutual attraction. That's when
Speaker 1: you actually know you like each other. The third one
Speaker 1: is commitment. That's when you don't just like each other,
Speaker 1: but you're actually saying yes to the relationship. And the
Speaker 1: fourth one is compatibility, because actually love isn't all you need.
Speaker 1: You need two people who actually work well together. You know,
Speaker 1: is it's not is this person you know? Am I
Speaker 1: good at handling them? And are they good at handling me?
Speaker 1: Like that's a pretty I think that's a pretty good
Speaker 1: barometer of a relationship I came.
Speaker 3: To this is a great one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're gonna come with your stuff. This nonsense
Speaker 1: of like we have to come to a relationship fully healed.
Speaker 1: Who does No one who likes an it's a it's
Speaker 1: this idea that gets talked about that no one actually does.
Speaker 1: No one comes to it.
Speaker 2: Ever.
Speaker 1: I'm to make myself whole and healed and everything before
Speaker 1: a relationship. Good luck. And by the way, half the
Speaker 1: people who say that stuff, who have been married ten years,
Speaker 1: they weren't that way when they met their partner. So
Speaker 1: we find imperfect people. You know that we are damaged
Speaker 1: vessels that somehow still work, and that's beautiful. And we're
Speaker 1: trying to find another damaged vessel that we go. Oh,
Speaker 1: I understand the I understand the fabric of their challenges
Speaker 1: and what they struggle with, or at least it makes
Speaker 1: sense to me when I hear it. And you know,
Speaker 1: I have compassion for it, and I have empathy for it,
Speaker 1: and I have affection for it even and vice versa.
Speaker 1: And so now when we go through our inevitable things,
Speaker 1: we're just good at handling each other. So it's when
Speaker 1: we when we have a standard we may not end
Speaker 1: up exactly where we want to be, but the ultimate
Speaker 1: standard of holistically, are you getting what you need from
Speaker 1: this relationship. That's a really important question that not enough
Speaker 1: people ask and as a result they suffer in unhappy relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting to get into that kind of
Speaker 2: you know, to go beyond that superficial conversation of make
Speaker 2: a list of what you want and like, you know,
Speaker 2: try and find it out and you know that that
Speaker 2: kind of ego centric list that we get. Let's let's
Speaker 2: talk a bit about breakups, because I think the challenge
Speaker 2: is that everyone in their life goes through at least
Speaker 2: one or two maybe more, really painful breakups. Whether it's fidelity,
Speaker 2: whether it's out it feels out of the blue, someone
Speaker 2: just goes Yep, not working out for me anymore, whether
Speaker 2: it's different goals and different plans and priorities that emerge
Speaker 2: over time. And I think everyone who goes through a
Speaker 2: breakup blames it on themselves. Often thinks that this is
Speaker 2: the end, there'll never be another person, and it feels
Speaker 2: like a really dark, dark, dark empty road and a
Speaker 2: lonely road. And I think it's really interesting because there's
Speaker 2: so many piece of advice and everything about like how
Speaker 2: to get over a breakup, and I've talked about that
Speaker 2: as well myself, but I just find that it seems
Speaker 2: to be a path that you have to walk and
Speaker 2: have to take and there's no real acceleration or there's not,
Speaker 2: as you said, there's not like I'm going to get
Speaker 2: over this breakup in three months, right, there's no timeline
Speaker 2: or deadline that you can set on it. But it's
Speaker 2: just uncomfortable, and it's almost like sitting in discomfort. What
Speaker 2: do we do when we're sitting in that discomfort?
Speaker 1: Well, when you're you're in the depths of it, because
Speaker 1: there's different phases, right, Like there's certainly a phase of
Speaker 1: any heartbreak when it's genuine deep heartbreak where you are
Speaker 1: just questioning your existence, where you are like.
Speaker 2: This.
Speaker 1: You know, I remember having my own heart broken and
Speaker 1: sitting on the door the doorstep of my house with
Speaker 1: a friend of mine and just with tears in my
Speaker 1: eyes saying to him, I just feel like I'm not
Speaker 1: good enough. Like that was my deep sense, was that
Speaker 1: I am not good enough, and if I was good enough,
Speaker 1: I would have been able to make this work. And
Speaker 1: that's it's a horrible place to be, and you you know,
Speaker 1: we have to have compassion for ourselves in those times
Speaker 1: because it's brutally difficult. It's a time where we just
Speaker 1: need love and we need to celebrate the fact that
Speaker 1: we got through another day and that we got I
Speaker 1: managed to get out of bed today, and you know,
Speaker 1: it was an act of it was a heroic act
Speaker 1: for me to just get out of bed. We then
Speaker 1: have to you know, I always think that all of
Speaker 1: these moments give us gears that we wouldn't have had otherwise.
Speaker 1: And the worst pain of my life has given me
Speaker 1: access to gears that I didn't know I had. And
Speaker 1: as much as no one wants to hear it when
Speaker 1: they're in it, those gears turn out to be really valuable.
Speaker 1: They really do. I mean, we all choose suffering in
Speaker 1: our lives. Like we choose to go to the gym
Speaker 1: that's choosing suffering. We choose like to write a book
Speaker 1: choosing a form of suffering. We choose to make a podcast,
Speaker 1: or we choose to climb a literal mountain, or like
Speaker 1: we choose pain in our lives regularly because we know
Speaker 1: that it gives us. There are benefits to be had
Speaker 1: I have to argue that the benefit I have gotten
Speaker 1: from the pain that I didn't choose has been no
Speaker 1: less valuable than the benefit I've gotten from the pain
Speaker 1: I did choose. In fact, actually I think the most
Speaker 1: valuable pain I've ever had is the pain I didn't choose.
Speaker 1: And when you realize that, you can kind of almost
Speaker 1: I think, look at some of the worst moments of
Speaker 1: your life as like a menu of pain, and beside
Speaker 1: the item on the menu is the very specific, unique
Speaker 1: benefits that can only come from this kind of pain,
Speaker 1: and you can kind of imagine yourself choosing, like retroactively
Speaker 1: choosing that pain, which is a very valuable thing to do.
Speaker 1: Because I was told by a psychologist about an experiment
Speaker 1: on rats where one rat was on a wheel and
Speaker 1: was just given, you know, like the free reign to
Speaker 1: just run whenever it wanted to run. There was another rat,
Speaker 1: this was Rat A. Rap B was connected to that wheel.
Speaker 1: He was on another wheel that was connected to Rat
Speaker 1: A's wheel, and any time Rat A chose to run,
Speaker 1: Rap B had to run right, so both doing the
Speaker 1: same amount of exercising. But at the end of the experiment,
Speaker 1: Rat A shows all the positive markers of exercise and
Speaker 1: rap B shows all the negative markers of stress. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: same amount of exercise was the difference? Well, rat A
Speaker 1: chose to run, rat B didn't. And there's something profound
Speaker 1: about that to me, because if we can take a
Speaker 1: situation that we didn't choose, who would choose to be heartbroken?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: It's the worst, it's a terrible pain. But what if
Speaker 1: in that pain you did realize, like, there is something
Speaker 1: here that I'm going to gain from this experience that
Speaker 1: I couldn't have any other way. That if I look
Speaker 1: on that menu of pain, this one has some really
Speaker 1: good benefits, Like this one has some really amazing stuff.
Speaker 1: Who I'm going to have to become to get through this.
Speaker 1: What I'm going to have to learn, The way I'm
Speaker 1: going to have to get comfortable even just to get
Speaker 1: through a weekend right now on my own is it
Speaker 1: is going to be this unbelievable feat and to get
Speaker 1: comfortable in my own company and to sit in this pain,
Speaker 1: and there are such profound benefits from that. What if
Speaker 1: I did actually look at those benefits and say they're
Speaker 1: so powerful that I'm going to choose this pain so
Speaker 1: that I can experience those benefits, and so you turn
Speaker 1: yourself from rat B to rat A, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you're not a victim of that pain any more.
Speaker 1: You're the beneficiary of these exquisite gifts that you could
Speaker 1: only get this way, and that only there's one tool
Speaker 1: I've used to get through some of the worst, worst
Speaker 1: pain of my life. And then on a practice and
Speaker 1: on a psychological level, with heartbreak, what I always remind
Speaker 1: people is that if anyone who doesn't choose you cannot
Speaker 1: be for you. They if they don't see you like
Speaker 1: what is a relationship. It's someone sees you, they accept you,
Speaker 1: and they want that. That's the most beautiful part of
Speaker 1: a relationship. So if someone doesn't see you and accept
Speaker 1: you and want what they see, then this relationship is
Speaker 1: missing the most beautiful part of any relationship. It shouldn't
Speaker 1: even be you know, it shouldn't be desirable at that
Speaker 1: stage because it's not. It has failed the fundamental test
Speaker 1: of what makes a relationlationship worth having. We're not talking
Speaker 1: about a person who you know, in at least the
Speaker 1: case I feel, we're talking about the person who was
Speaker 1: taken from us by life. We're talking about a person
Speaker 1: who's just walking around somewhere, still existing on the planet,
Speaker 1: but choosing not to be with us. That should lose
Speaker 1: its romance to us, you know, and to say, well,
Speaker 1: if that's the other game we play is if it
Speaker 1: was a different time in life, if they were a
Speaker 1: bit older, they would have been ready to commit, If
Speaker 1: they had been in a different phase where they weren't
Speaker 1: so busy with their work, they might have had the
Speaker 1: space to really give to this relationship. But they said
Speaker 1: their work isn't allowing them to. If it's like, we
Speaker 1: go through all these scenarios where it forces us into
Speaker 1: this sad love song of right person, wrong time, and
Speaker 1: that's a really like pernicious story. That's a very dangerous
Speaker 1: story because it takes what belongs in the realm of
Speaker 1: science fiction and brings it into our reality. Like when
Speaker 1: we're thinking about an X from like five years ago
Speaker 1: and we're like, I miss them. I don't know why,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't even know who they are anymore.
Speaker 1: That was five years ago. They're a different person now
Speaker 1: in many ways. You're a different person now. In anyway
Speaker 1: if you've got together now, you'd be getting together as
Speaker 1: different people you miss. A ghost person doesn't exist anymore
Speaker 1: in the way that you think they do. You know,
Speaker 1: and when you're saying, oh, if only we met five
Speaker 1: years from now, it would have worked in what parallel universe?
Speaker 1: It's a this is science fiction like, it's not. It
Speaker 1: didn't happen in this universe. So it's it's like it
Speaker 1: is wishing for a parallel universe where everything all the
Speaker 1: Domino's unfolded in a different way. It's not this universe.
Speaker 1: So we just we have to get out of this
Speaker 1: mind because it gets us bought into a science fiction
Speaker 1: story that doesn't really exist. I don't believe in the
Speaker 1: right person at the wrong time. It's the right person
Speaker 1: is right in their personality, they're ready, and their life
Speaker 1: is compatible with yours. If you're missing one of those
Speaker 1: three things, then it's not the right person. The right
Speaker 1: person has to be more than someone who you have
Speaker 1: a great time with and you like who they are
Speaker 1: and have great conversation and and and great intimacy. That
Speaker 1: can't That's not the only criteria for someone who's right.
Speaker 1: So we have to stop telling ourself the story that
Speaker 1: someone who you know broke up with us, or it
Speaker 1: was bad timing or whatever. Is the right person for us.
Speaker 1: That is a that is just a story. It is
Speaker 1: not reality. The right person is the person it happens.
Speaker 2: With Matthew Asi books called Love Life. That was that
Speaker 2: hit right there, man, that have resonated so deeply. If
Speaker 2: you haven't already gone and ordered this while you're listening
Speaker 2: or watching, please please please go and grab this book.
Speaker 2: As you can tell, Matthew's just woven beautifully his own experiences,
Speaker 2: his own challenges, mixed with insights, lessons, research, practical steps.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's all in the book.
Speaker 2: And today we've just given you a little tip of
Speaker 2: the iceberg of And this was genuinely just a real
Speaker 2: conversation of me and Matthew going back and forth, which
Speaker 2: we need to do a lot more of, but just
Speaker 2: sitting here with you today, Matthew, I've gained so much,
Speaker 2: so much, honestly, and as someone who's written a book
Speaker 2: about love too, there was so much today that I
Speaker 2: feel like we uncovered and unpacked, and so I can't
Speaker 2: wait for people to dive into Love Life, how to
Speaker 2: raise your standards, find your person, and live happily no
Speaker 2: matter what. Grab your copy now, Matthew. Thank you again
Speaker 2: everyone who's been listening to watching, share and tag your
Speaker 2: greatest insights with me and Matthew on Instagram on TikTok.
Speaker 2: I know you guys are cutting up all these amazing clips.
Speaker 3: Keep them coming.
Speaker 2: Let us know what resonated with you, what you're trying out,
Speaker 2: what you're practice seeing, what you're implementing, what's working for you,
Speaker 2: and something that you're struggling with as well.
Speaker 3: Let us know so that we can.
Speaker 2: Try to create more conversations and more content that can
Speaker 2: support you on your journey.
Speaker 3: Matthew, thank you. Any last words you anything you want
Speaker 3: to share.
Speaker 1: No, I would just say if people go to lovelifebook
Speaker 1: dot com, not only can you get the book there
Speaker 1: from any retailer you want, but I'm doing an event
Speaker 1: on May fourth called Find Your Person is designed to
Speaker 1: be this It's a virtual event, so you could do
Speaker 1: it from wherever you are in the world, wherever you
Speaker 1: buy the book from. But we're all going to get
Speaker 1: together and I'm going to take everything that you learn
Speaker 1: from the book and apply it to a year plan
Speaker 1: with you. I love that anyone who is like finding
Speaker 1: my Person is a real priority for me in my
Speaker 1: life is what I deeply want. I'm not ashamed of it.
Speaker 1: I want that for myself. This is going to take
Speaker 1: all of the knowledge and the awareness and the ideas
Speaker 1: you have from the book and actually put you on
Speaker 1: a path in this live event to getting that over
Speaker 1: the course of the next.
Speaker 3: Year of our life Love livebook dot Com.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you go to Love Lifebook dot you can
Speaker 1: not only get the book, you can use your receipt
Speaker 1: from the book to get a free ticket to this event.
Speaker 1: It's not a you know, it's not a paid for event.
Speaker 1: No one can come just by buying their way onto it.
Speaker 1: It's literally something that's just reserved for everyone who's getting
Speaker 1: a copy of the book.
Speaker 3: I love that. That's a beautiful idea. Man. Well, yeah,
Speaker 3: lovelifebook dot com everyone, that's the place to go.
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you're going to love my
Speaker 2: conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your
Speaker 2: ex and find true love in your relationships.
Speaker 1: People should be compassionate to themselves that extend that compassion
Speaker 1: to your future self, because truly extending your compassion to
Speaker 1: your future self is doing something that gives him or
Speaker 1: her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life.