WEBVTT - Bioplastics 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.240 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:14.280 Forward Thinking. Hello there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.320 podcast that looks at the future and says life and plastic. 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.560 It's fantastic. I'm Lauren Vocaba and I'm Joe McCormick, and 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:25.400 our host Jonathan Strickland is not with us today. He 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:29.400 had some important things to attend to, so Lauren and 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:34.000 I are flying solo today, but rest assured Jonathan we'll 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:38.880 be back with us very soon. So, Lauren, I wanted 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.680 to tell you a story that I find curious to 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.720 kick off our podcast today, and it's a story about 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.239 how millions and millions of years ago, there were all 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.640 these little ancient life forms living in the ocean and 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.480 over the millions of years, what a life forms do? 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.080 They die and they sank to the bottom of the ocean, 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:07.440 and they, over millions of years and pressure and geologic 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:12.039 action got turned into oil cool, the stuff we love 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:17.640 today to its precious car blood. That is right, right sure, 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:20.640 But it's not just precious car blood. It's also the 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:25.080 stuff we used to make plastics, which sounds so crazy. 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.679 Well it's crazy, and it's sort of an irony because 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.160 The word plastic is something we often use as sort 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:36.280 of a synonym for artificial or not alive, you know, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.120 kind of fake synthetic, like the plastics from from the 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.119 epic Mean Girls. Oh of course, there you go, But 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:47.000 if you go back, it comes from life. Isn't that 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:51.160 kind of a beautiful story and a strange irony? It is. 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:53.360 It is both of those things. Although I guess I 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:57.080 mean the plastics that we make from that oil are 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:00.240 very man made and and artificial. There are all so 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:05.640 naturally occurring plastic esque substances. Okay, yeah, like maybe sort 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.880 of like tree rubber, sure, sure, stuff like that. Yeah, um, 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:13.760 but but we have to process that oil type stuff 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:15.360 a whole lot in order to get what we know 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.559 is plastic out of it. Yeah, what what are plastics? 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:20.440 What does that word actually mean? I know, it doesn't 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:23.040 actually mean fake. It just means something that can be 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.960 shaped or molded basically. Um, oh that makes sense. So, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.800 like when we talk about the neuroplasticity of the brain 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:35.760 means the brain can be reshaped, it's changeable, and plastics 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.800 can take on many different characteristics. You know, we can 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.680 we can make something that's very flexible or something that's 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.800 very rigid. We can make something that folds under pressure 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.280 or that's really good at maintaining its shape, all out 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.239 of basically the same polymers and um, it's really easy 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.280 to mass produce compared to a lot of other traditional 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.640 materials like stone or wood. Easy to mass produce, an 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.720 easy to uh cut and join in shape and reshape. 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:05.920 I'd imagine that might have something to do with the 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.040 fact that we already have an industrial pipeline that's supplying 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:11.920 us with lots and lots of oil, the raw material 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:16.079 you used to make plastics, right, right, Because during what's 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.880 called the cracking process of refining oil, you get some 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:25.600 useful chemical byproducts. UM. For for example, here raw hydrocarbons. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:29.959 These things can be processed further to create hydrocarbon and 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.520 and other carbon monomers, which can be further process to 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.480 create polymers. And Okay, that that the molecules in plastic 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:40.160 are called polymers, which is a chain of smaller molecular 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.320 units called monomers. Um. They're they're like the individual links 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.280 in a polymer chain. Yeah, they're like really long sequences 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.560 of repeating the same unit over and over right, right exactly. However, 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:57.000 all of this processing requires a little bit of experimentation 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.560 with different types of monomers, and by binding them in 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.200 different amounts and arrangements, you can create all of these 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.120 different types of plastics that we've been talking about, right, 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.400 because I'd imagine the plastics that make your polyester suit 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.400 are different from the plastics that make your grocery bag 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.040 and the plastics that make the hard things that fit 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.640 on parts of your car. I would I would imagine 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.560 so as well. Although some of them are really weird 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.920 and tricky and and and kind of flow together in 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.039 ways that you wouldn't expect them too, but most of 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:30.240 them are chemically inert, which is a really important factor 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.040 here because it means that you can put plastic up 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.640 next to other stuff and not have it interact with 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.320 that stuff. Oh right, So like you wouldn't want to make, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:45.440 say a beverage containing container out of stuff that might 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.040 react with the beverage you put in it. That would 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:51.440 be generally speaking bad. Yeah, um and okay, So so 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:53.599 you don't have to worry too much about it. There's 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:58.200 there's a little bit of controversy and study and worry 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:03.600 that many consumer plastic, especially soft plastics, which make up 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.919 a large amount of the consumer plastic continuum. Um do 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:12.760 in fact leach chemicals into surrounding materials, and sometimes toxic chemicals, 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.560 but that that is probably a whole other different podcast 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:18.880 um and and hey, okay, so even if plastics do 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.640 not interact with the stuff around them, that lack of 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.640 reaction isn't all good all the time, because the same 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.039 stability that makes plastics so useful for holding stuff and 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.440 carrying stuff and not wrinkling even after you've put it 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:35.320 through the washing machine will also make it resistant to decay, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.240 which means that plastic tends to stick around for a 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.920 really long time in landfills. Joe, you looked into how 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.600 long this is? Yeah, okay, so there's a statistic you 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:47.360 see floating around. Not a statistic, it's just a number. 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.000 And I wondered where it came from. You've probably heard this. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.680 The plastic grocery bags you get at the store, it 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:58.520 takes them five hundred years to decompose in a land. Uh. 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.080 I don't know if that's true. From what I write, Uh, 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.839 it looks like so the polyethylene you find in the 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:08.839 grocery bags will take a really really long time to decay. 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.360 We we know that, Uh, the five hundred years thing 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.360 from what I've read, that's more just kind of an 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:18.599 estimate that stands in to say, a really really long time. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.479 We don't know how long. And the reason it takes 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.720 so long is that we're really not getting any help 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:29.800 from the biosphere in decomposing this product. Plastics like that 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:34.239 are not biodegradable. So when you put say a chunk 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.799 of wood or paper or food waste into the garbage dump, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.919 all the bacteria is say, hey, just free lunch food, 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.240 and they go in and they eat it up, and 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.479 they decompose it and turn it down into lots of 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:52.120 different little chemical constituents, and it gets recycled into the 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:54.680 atmosphere and the soil and stuff like that, the whole 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.440 circle of life. Right. Biodegradable is basically a really fancy 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.279 word for bacteria like to eat it out. But plastics 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:06.919 like pet are not food for these bacteria other microbes. 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.840 They're not interested, not delicious. They see that, they say, 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.040 not delectable. I turned my nose up at it, and 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.640 I will go munch on this, you know, pile of 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:19.520 feces over here. So so how do you how do 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.120 you plastics, I mean, do plastics breakdown at all. Yeah, 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:29.040 so they undergo not biodegradation, but something called photodegradation. So 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:33.760 when you shine sunlight on plastics, the UV radiation breaks 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.440 the plastics down into smaller and smaller pieces over time, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.200 and this is how plastic floating in the ocean breaks 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.000 down over time. Unfortunately, depending on the chemical composition of 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:48.120 the plastic, the smaller pieces might also be toxic. Also, 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.160 if you're burying plastic in a landfill, which is what 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.200 we mentioned earlier, you're burying it away from the sunlight. 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:58.560 You're probably not helping the photodegradation process along. However, if 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.040 you're looking for biodegra a dation, not all plastics are 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:06.920 the same. For example, by adding biodegradable additives to normal plastics, 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.760 you can make them more appetizing to the microbe. So, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.320 for example, you might substitute just one percent of the 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:18.000 volume of a plastic resin load with pellets of biodegradable additive, 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.880 and if they work as advertised, they can make that 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.280 so that the bacteria look at that and say yumm, 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.720 and get in there and eat it up. So there 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.200 are questions there about well, okay, so if you put 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.720 this additive in there is the plastic going to perform 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:35.520 just as well and in its industrial use or in 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:38.800 its consumer use, and generally I think we're pretty good 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.000 at that now, Like we can get it pretty much 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.360 working the same with these additives that make it yummy. 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.920 But as we introduce this, part of the appeal of 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.960 plastics is that they're not yummy tomcro, and that they're 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.680 not easily reactive. Right. Sure, so you're so you're changing 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:56.320 part of what we liked about the thing in the 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:01.000 first place. Um, but but hey, another issue you involved 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.840 with the waste products that are made of plastic. Some 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.880 landfills don't just bury their waste, they burn them, and 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.160 incinerators too. So so how how do plastics fair when 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:15.440 you apply fire to them? Well, I have burned lots 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.960 of plastic army men as a child and stood over 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.280 them breathing the delicious fumes. And that's not good for you, 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.640 is it? No? That is that is bad? Well, especially 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:27.680 if if you're doing it at low enough temperatures, and 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.400 by low enough temperatures, I mean like below eight fifty 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:36.800 degrees celsius a k a sixteen hundred degrees fahrenheit ut 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:42.040 rocket I think under that I could be I could 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.680 be incorrect. Um, but but yet nasty chemicals can be 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:50.559 released during that process. Um. There's these carcinogenic toxins called 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.880 dioxins that will break down under high enough temperatures. Um. 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:57.600 But yeah, but but it can be released into the 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.720 air or leached from ash into the vironment if you 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.480 go down below that threshold that I mentioned a minute ago. 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.200 And even if you're doing it properly, which landfills do. Uh, 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.720 some some toxins can still be released as the emission 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.079 gases cooled down. Even if you are Okay, let's say 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.880 that you're doing it totally correctly, you're not worried about 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:20.079 dioxins anymore. You do still have to worry about carbon dioxide. 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.520 Burning plastic creates more carbon dioxide then would be produced 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:29.480 if you just let it decompose in a very sunny landfill, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.920 all of all of those sun landfills, right yeah. Um, 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:38.240 And uh, you know that there are some like high 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:43.480 efficiency energy recovery systems that recapture some carbon dioxide and 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.280 can use it as fuel, um, reducing your carbon footprint 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:51.120 from burning plastics. But that's a really specific case. Not 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:54.080 not all landfill systems have this sort of thing. Yeah, 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:58.080 so i'd imagine if you're talking about traditional petro plastics, 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.400 probably one of the best things you can do with 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:04.280 them is recycled, the recyclable ones, right, Oh, absolutely, and 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.080 lots of them can be recycled. I mean it very rarely. 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.160 It's considered more expensive than is really worthwhile. But plastics 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.920 are one of the things that that most recyclers really 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.200 enjoy working with because you get a pretty good return 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:21.040 on on investment. Um. However, lots of plastic just doesn't 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.520 get recycled. According to Harvard's Wiss Institute, which will come 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.520 up again in just a moment, only three percent of 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.720 the three million tons of plastic that we produce every 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:36.200 year worldwide is recycled. That's that's terrifying. So what happens 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.559 to the rest? They just throw it and garbage patch 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:40.760 in the Pacific Ocean. Yeah, either either in the ocean 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.760 and landfills, it gets burned, etcetera, etcetera. I think I 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.280 read that garbage patches like mostly plastic, isn't it. I 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.840 have not read anything about it, but I am extra terrified. Now. Yeah, No, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:53.480 I mean, I mean it makes perfect sense that you 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.000 know that that people are I mean because especially since 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.560 any many other kinds of waste are going to either 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.040 decompose or have been taken out forehand. Like, no one's 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.120 gonna put steel in the middle of the ocean because 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:05.520 steel is valuable. You're going to take that out first, 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:10.959 and it's not going to float. Yes, I'm glad that 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:12.800 we have a really good group on science here on 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.000 this show. Now that'd be at the bottom would be 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:21.120 the Great Pacific Garbage Pile. Yes, okay, But but so 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:26.079 aside from the Great Pacific Garbage Pile, there are some 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.880 other answers to to what to do with all of 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.880 this plastic, or or how to perhaps lessen the amount 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.640 of plastic that is going out there. Lauren, are you 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.680 telling me that there is a sweeter, more environmentally friendly 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:43.000 way to make plastics? Yes, you can make bioplastics. It's 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.080 made of smiles. Oh wow, Well I should have probably said, uh, 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:52.920 debatably friendlier and sweeter version, right, Yes, I mean, because okay, 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.840 bioplastics do come from biological sources um which supply polymers 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:02.200 used to create essentially very similar plastic products. Yeah, I 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.840 believe I've I've drank out of bottles before that said 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.319 they were made with corn. Oh yeah, yeah, that's one 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:09.120 of the most common ones. It's called p l A 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.480 or polyactide, which is which is usually made from corn. 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.840 It's starch based and is commonly used in product packaging 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:19.160 and clothing. It was invented back in the year two 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.840 thousand as a collaboration between a couple of chemical companies. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.679 The very earliest one, however, was celluloid, which was developed 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.760 all the way back in the eighteen sixties, made from 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.760 cotton that have been dipped in acid along with camphor 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.720 from the camphor laurel tree. Oh wow, Okay, so I 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.600 can see in the root of that word that might 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:42.080 come from cellulose, like, isn't cotton is basically just cellulose? Right? 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:47.640 Plant plants stuff, the cell walls of plant cells are cellulose. 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:51.480 That's it exactly. Um. Cell of fane, you know, clear 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.640 plastic sheets that we use mostly for food packaging, is 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:58.079 another bioplastic that was invented in the early nineteen hundreds. 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.000 Um yeah, and that cell tho stuff. All of these 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:05.600 having the same root. It's it's an organic compound. That's uh. Polysaccharide, 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.320 which is which is the stuff in cell walls of 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.320 green plants. Yeah, that's cool. So what else can we 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.960 make bioplastics from soybeans? Back in the nineteen thirties, Henry 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.760 Ford actually started making auto parts out of soybeans, and 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:22.120 in one unveiled an entire soybean car, which was a 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.240 bioplastic body on a on a steel frame. And but 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:29.600 but you can use basically any any plant, I mean, 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.680 lots of starchy stuff, cane, sugar, wood, bark, switch grass, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.960 and possibly even food waste can go into bioplastics. UM 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.200 Like I said that most common one is made from 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:44.880 corn um. But uh, like I said, sugarcane p ET 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:50.560 a version of polyethylene tetrafthalate. I think I said that correctly, 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.520 um can be made from sugarcane instead of the usual 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:59.480 petrochemical process. Common, isn't it? Oh yeah yeah? Um? And 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.920 uh toyota and a T and T use a bioplastic 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.280 version of p ET in interior trim, and also cell 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:11.480 phone case components, you know, respectively. Right right, My, My 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.160 very favorite kind of bioplastic is pH B and that's 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:20.760 polyhydroxy bey rate, which is made from bacteria. And okay, 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:22.920 so if you get the right kind of bacteria into 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:28.400 a fermentation tank. It'll churn out biopolymers like lactic acid 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.680 and polyesters, which can then be processed into monomers, into polymers, 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.600 into plastic. So these are made in these big bioreactor things, 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.840 like bioreactors, Right, Yeah, I just love to get inside 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.320 one of those. I don't think you would. I think 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:46.360 it would be warm and stanky. I don't think I 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.560 don't think that's a place for Joe. Okay. Uh So 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:53.800 I mentioned earlier that it's debatable, but that bioplastics might 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:58.800 be net benefit for the environment over petroplastics. What what's 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:02.480 the deal? Why might they be better? Well, some are biodegradable, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.479 so they will eventually break down under the right conditions, 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.320 and those conditions depend upon the type of bioplastic. Okay, 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.800 But the important thing to say there is that they're 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.840 actually biodegradable, not just not just they break down into 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.280 smaller pieces under the sunlight, but that bacteria will actually 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.960 eat them, little animals eat them up, and tournamento chemicals. Yes, yes, 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.600 and and those those conditions range from regular old landfill 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:32.160 conditions um, although that is certainly not ideal um, because 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:35.640 you you really need oxygen in the process of biodegradation 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.600 and landfills are not where oxygen is hanging out most 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:44.080 of the time. Um to. Some can be biodegraded in 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:47.840 home com posting, which of course would depend on you 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:52.720 knowing which things of yours you can are bioplastic. And yeah, 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.560 and also you actually composting. Um. I am certainly too 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.400 lazy to compost, which I feel pretty bad about. Actually 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:06.200 sometimes I do some accidental composting. Um. But but there's 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:11.760 there's also industrial composting, which is definitely a really great 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:17.400 way to get bioplastics to biodegrade. However, not everyone has access. 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:22.000 Most most home consumers do not have access to industrial composting. Yeah, 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.400 I was thinking, how do you get it there? Yeah, 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:28.160 you don't basically, um, like like large enough contracts through 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:33.080 For example, if a if a hotel uses entirely bioplastic 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.159 containers for its i don't know, shampoos and water bottles 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:37.920 and whatever else it sells, or a stadium. You know, 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:39.840 any time that you've got a captive audience and you 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.560 can pretty reliably get a whole bunch of bioplastics together, 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:48.000 you can sell those or send them to a to 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.080 an industrial composting thing. Okay, so let's say we're in 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.000 one of those places where you just uh, you know, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.320 burn everything, burn it all. I get in that mood sometimes, 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:01.520 I understand. Do they provide any real advantage over regular 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.120 petrochemical plastics when it comes to incineration. I mean, it's 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.680 it's definitely worth saying that they can be incinerated. I've 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:13.040 read part few things saying they can be incinerated. It's 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.200 sort of considered a form of recycling. You're not recycling 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:21.040 the material, but you're reclaiming energy. Sure, I mean, plastics 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.199 are very energy dense, and so as a as a 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:31.320 kind of post process fuel source, they can be pretty awesome. However, Uh, 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.320 we couldn't find any sources that stated really definitively um, 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:40.239 exactly what chemically happens when you burn bioplastics um. And 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.240 this is partially because a lot of the sources out 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:47.080 there are makers of bioplastics. While some pro bioplastic literature 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:51.520 says that you can reduce the carbon emissions, like the 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:57.600 bioplastics don't add to the net carbon emissions like the right, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.840 but we're not We're not entirely sure. Some some definite 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:07.719 downsides to bioplastics. Most of these actually come in with 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.840 kind of consumer misunderstanding of the product's life cycles, like 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.120 you were saying earlier, knowing whether or not this thing 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.800 that you have should be put in your compost um. Uh. 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.439 Number one is is bioplastics can create a lot of 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:25.600 recycling havoc. Even a relatively small amount of bioplastic mixed 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.640 in with regular plastics can contaminate an entire recycling batch, 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:34.760 which is bad times for everyone involved. UM. Like we 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.600 like we said, most bioplastics do indeed need to be composted. 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.480 They will not fare very well in landfills. Bioplastics do 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.880 produce methane, which is a greenhouse gas when they decompose, 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.520 and is actually worse than CEO two. Yeah, yeah, it's well, 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.520 everything's bad, but it's not. It's certainly not good. Um. 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.760 Similarly to the CEO to collection process, landfills and other 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.760 dumps can can collect methane and use it as a 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.640 fuel source. But still that's only if they have put 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:05.280 that in place. UM. And also, you know, if you're 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.959 growing crops in order to make plastic, you're using fields 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.320 that could be creating food for people or for livestock. 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:14.399 In fact, the corn that goes into p l A 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:18.119 S is generally a livestock feed, which is referred to 0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:25.280 if you're really interested in corn number two yellow Dent's 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:31.040 number two yellow dent d n T dent. Yeah, I don't, 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.359 I don't. I don't know. I've never honestly been that 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.719 interested in corn. Maybe I should be. Maybe, maybe it's 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.080 a whole world that I've never explored. You know, when 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:43.359 a plant has a number in its name, it sounds 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:47.919 like a pencil like like plant, more like a like 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:52.840 a robot prototype. I'm sure that there is a long 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:58.159 and interesting entomological reason for for that thing. Okay, but 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.320 so um so, once once get away from from all 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.119 of the types of bioplastics that we've been making for 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.399 the past decade or two, which I mean are are 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:09.760 pretty cool, Like like like we're being a little bit skeptical here, 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:13.560 but we want to make it clear that this is 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:19.720 not necessarily a giant pansia for for the future of plastics, right. No, 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.840 but I encourage this research, oh absolutely so. So there 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.920 so there's more research being done. Just in the spring 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:29.840 of we are recording this. You may in fact be 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:35.480 listening to this um Harford's White Institute for Biologically Inspired 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.320 Engineering announced that they had created a bioplastic made from 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:44.480 shrimp shells um, specifically from the polymer kitson, which is 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.600 a form of kitan, which is the second most abundant 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:51.080 organic material on the planet, being that it makes up 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:55.480 crustacean shells, insect exo skeletons, some insect wings, other stuff 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:57.399 like that. You know what, It would be great if 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:00.480 you had a factory making this that was right next 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.800 to a seafood restaurant, because what do you do with 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.359 all those shells? It's always a shame when you eat 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.639 shrimp and then on the edge of your plates, what 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.400 do you do with them? Well, on an industrial level, 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.920 what is done with that kind of stuff? Apparently it's 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:21.240 made into all kinds of weird stuff, including makeup things 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:25.359 I never knew about shrimp shells. Yeah, your face, it 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:30.399 smells like the ocean. Okay, back back to back to 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:36.840 this bioplastic. These these researchers from Harvard specifically combined this 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:39.840 kiti sin with with wood flower, which is a byproduct 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.880 of wood processing um, to help it maintain its shape, 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.520 which was a cost improvement over the traditional beef upper 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.320 for kiton, which is a protein from silk which is 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:53.000 pretty expensive. Yeah, and and so the researchers say that 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.520 it can be maths manufactured for using all kinds of 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.480 objects like toys or cell phones or trash bags, packaging diapers, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:02.879 and that it breaks down in just a few weeks, 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.640 even degrading into like plant friendly nutrients, Like if you 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:10.679 put plants in stuff where this is buried, the plants 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:13.879 will be happier and healthier. Okay, So for using this 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.160 to make stuff like toys and cell phones and stuff 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:21.119 like that, why doesn't it break down while you're using it? 0:23:21.200 --> 0:23:27.560 Or is it just for burner phones? Probably that's it. No, Actually, 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:29.520 a none of the reports that I read, and I 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.199 don't think that the as of the recording of this 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:38.040 podcast on MA I couldn't find the actual article in 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:42.000 print that this research. This was all press releases ahead 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:44.840 of print, so so this is kind of the pre 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.760 release version. And I could not find any information on 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:52.240 what exactly what kind of degradation process they were talking 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:54.439 about here. Okay, So it might need to be in 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:57.479 the presence of some other materials, or it might need 0:23:57.480 --> 0:23:59.679 to be in a composting situation, it might need to 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.720 right some kind of chemical thing. I'm not sure yet. 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.959 Well there, well maybe maybe whenever that publishes, we can 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:14.200 throw up a blog post yeah, yeah, define discussing shrimp plastic. Yeah. 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:17.399 And and they're not the only people obviously working on 0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:20.800 this kind of thing. That My other favorite story from 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:23.880 the headlines is that a team of students from Imperial 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:29.399 College London won an award in the International Genetically Engineered 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:35.960 Machine Competition for a specific bioplastic manufacturing process. Um and 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:39.160 and this this process of theirs was that they retooled 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:45.520 the genetic code of ecoli, the bacteria, the bacteria, so 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.959