Speaker 1: In case you're just recently joining us, or however long
Speaker 1: you've been a listener of the show. You may not
Speaker 1: realize we have years and years of incredible episodes in
Speaker 1: our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that we've
Speaker 1: decided to handpick one of our favorites that may be
Speaker 1: new to you, but if not, it's definitely worth another listen.
Speaker 1: We hope you'll enjoy this part two episode with Adia Shanti.
Speaker 2: Admittedly, there's a significant part of me that's still a
Speaker 2: four or five year old little boy, which isn't uncommon
Speaker 2: for men.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great tinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think,
Speaker 1: ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
Speaker 1: don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
Speaker 1: or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
Speaker 1: what we do. We think things that hold us back
Speaker 1: and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking
Speaker 1: our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort
Speaker 1: to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
Speaker 1: how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
Speaker 1: how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 3: We are back for part two of this two part series,
Speaker 3: so thank you. I'm going to change gears a little
Speaker 3: bit for a second before we go into how sometimes
Speaker 3: the seeking and the spiritual practice that's focused on results
Speaker 3: stands in the way of us finding what we're seeking.
Speaker 3: But I first have to start with in a recent
Speaker 3: conversation I heard you you described the part of your
Speaker 3: gratitude practice is that you make up silly songs that
Speaker 3: you sing to your wife, and so wondering whether we're
Speaker 3: any chance of us getting a silly song. I know
Speaker 3: listeners everywhere like I want to hear one of these songs.
Speaker 3: You could probably release a record of them, is all
Speaker 3: I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, a record that only one person's going to
Speaker 2: listen to.
Speaker 4: The reason I'm closing my eyes now people can't see that,
Speaker 4: but by trying to rack my brain because it because
Speaker 4: they're just totally spontaneous. For the most part, I can't
Speaker 4: remember anything at the moment.
Speaker 2: But I mean, they're really what they they are, Eric
Speaker 2: is They're just they're like little moments where I'm just
Speaker 2: expressing gratitude. Yeah, like just how wonderful I think Mutie
Speaker 2: is and how mysterious because I've spent well, we've been
Speaker 2: married twenty three years, twenty three and a half years now,
Speaker 2: and I would say over those twenty three years, twenty
Speaker 2: three and a half years, our relationship has become more
Speaker 2: of a mystery to me rather than less. It's just
Speaker 2: more of a mystery the depth of that connection and
Speaker 2: what that is and what's that based on, because I'd
Speaker 2: never I don't mean to blow it up into something
Speaker 2: more or less than it is, but I'd never really
Speaker 2: seen it before. I'd never heard about it. I never
Speaker 2: read about it, still haven't to this day. I'm sure
Speaker 2: other people experience. But just there's just a way of
Speaker 2: a depth of connection that's just super, super profound and
Speaker 2: more mysterious now to me after twenty three years than ever.
Speaker 2: And I grew up with my mom singing songs. She
Speaker 2: used to wake me up every morning singing songs to me,
Speaker 2: and so I think I just sort of and they
Speaker 2: were often goofy and silly and fun, and you know,
Speaker 2: and I think I just sort of picked that up,
Speaker 2: and you know, it's just sort of a way of
Speaker 2: being of expressing happiness and gratitude. And you know, I've
Speaker 2: often told that. Sometimes I'll ask her, I say, this
Speaker 2: must just be insufferable. I mean, because sometimes I can
Speaker 2: make up twenty songs in a day. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: really literally like or more, and they're just little, short,
Speaker 2: little things. But I think kind if I was on
Speaker 2: the receiving end of this, I mean, it would be
Speaker 2: cute for a while. But good lord, she just keeps
Speaker 2: assuring me that it's okay.
Speaker 5: So I kept twenty years of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, when I when I heard that, it just sort
Speaker 3: of made I just I smiled for a couple hours
Speaker 3: about that. It's just such a such a genuine, just
Speaker 3: sort of fun. It's a way of playing, sweet way
Speaker 3: of playing.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, it's.
Speaker 2: A way of playing. Admittedly, there's a there's a significant
Speaker 2: part of me that's still a four or five year
Speaker 2: old litle boy, which isn't uncommon for men. Women know that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's part there's a part of us that sort of
Speaker 2: doesn't grow up. But and sometimes that's not so good.
Speaker 2: But I think there's a part of it that can
Speaker 2: be just a sort of innocence, and it does feel
Speaker 2: I do when I'm singing those songs, you know, I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm five years old. It comes from that
Speaker 2: same place. It's play and it's fun and and yet
Speaker 2: it's also serious because in the sense that they're all
Speaker 2: ways of saying I love you, and I just don't
Speaker 2: think that we can express that too often to one another,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting. I think that playfulness is something
Speaker 3: that I have really in the left. I think I
Speaker 3: had it a lot when I was younger, and then
Speaker 3: it kind of went away, and I've really, over the
Speaker 3: last few years really started to think about like how
Speaker 3: do I do how do I do that? Like how
Speaker 3: do I play and have fun? That that is, you know,
Speaker 3: that isn't something that's serious and it's it's been I
Speaker 3: think it's a big part of for me is and
Speaker 3: something I'm continuing to try and work with and you know,
Speaker 3: to lighten up.
Speaker 2: It's nice that you can start to rediscover that a
Speaker 2: little bit. You know. I think so much of it
Speaker 2: is just a willingness for us human beings to just
Speaker 2: sort of be silly, silly and happy and just like
Speaker 2: let that like kids do. They just let it out
Speaker 2: and they're not that concerned about how someone's going to
Speaker 2: see what they're going to think about it and how
Speaker 2: it's going to be received and all that. But you know,
Speaker 2: it seems to me that, like I said, people generally
Speaker 2: like you know, when you express appreciation or gratitude or
Speaker 2: love or or just the fact that you're having a
Speaker 2: wonderful time. Yep, you know what I mean. Yeah, But
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it just comes from that
Speaker 2: sense of just a willingness to be to be silly
Speaker 2: and to be seen as silly.
Speaker 3: It was sort of big when my son was little.
Speaker 3: Veggie Tails, VeggieTales, They've got a segment called Silly Songs
Speaker 3: with Larry Who's the Cucumber. If you ever want to
Speaker 3: have just a few minutes of silly fun, I would
Speaker 3: look up the hair Brush song. Yeah, yeah, oh he's hysterio.
Speaker 3: It's just they are silly songs. They are so fun. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'll put them on occasionally. Is just complete lighthearted silliness.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, we need I think we really need
Speaker 2: that also now, like really we always have, but I
Speaker 2: think we really need that because you know, our world
Speaker 2: is this so increasingly serious and for good reason, Like
Speaker 2: I get it, we're dealing with some serious serious challenges,
Speaker 2: but you know we can if we lose touch with
Speaker 2: our innocence. Man, all of our seriousness in the world
Speaker 2: isn't going to serve us, save us from the from
Speaker 2: the wisdom we lose when we lose connection with that
Speaker 2: Yet that innocence.
Speaker 3: We wrapped up Part one by saying we were going
Speaker 3: to talk a little bit about this sense of how
Speaker 3: our spiritual striving can get in the way. And you
Speaker 3: talk a lot about meditation, and you you teach meditation
Speaker 3: in a different way than a lot of a lot
Speaker 3: of people do. And I'm just gonna read something you wrote.
Speaker 3: You say, there's an unspoken, sometimes unacknowledged agenda that you
Speaker 3: carry into meditation, whether that be to get rid of
Speaker 3: certain feelings or to achieve other feelings, or to awaken right.
Speaker 3: And if you're not careful, that agenda will become your meditation.
Speaker 3: Meditation is the relinquishing of agenda.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice and easy and simple to write that down. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I read it. It's like, Okay, I'll sit I'll sit
Speaker 2: down and release agenda. And it's not usually quite that. No, simple,
Speaker 2: it can be simple, but I think a lot of
Speaker 2: it is comes back to like preconceived ideas of what
Speaker 2: a spiritual practice is. And I mean I know this
Speaker 2: because I did everything I teach people not to do.
Speaker 2: I have a PhD In seeking. I drove myself literally
Speaker 2: half crazy, seeking and striving, and and I even have
Speaker 2: a respect for that because sometimes like that's all we
Speaker 2: can do, no matter what somebody says. As my teacher says,
Speaker 2: sometimes you just have your dance to dance, and you
Speaker 2: got to dance it all the way out, which was
Speaker 2: her way of saying authenticity at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: rules like you gotta be you got to be authentic.
Speaker 2: So sometimes you're just seeking and you're wanting, and you're
Speaker 2: struggling and you're striving, and you hear that might not
Speaker 2: be the best way to go about it. But sometimes man,
Speaker 2: that just might be what you need to do. You
Speaker 2: just might need to burn that out of your system,
Speaker 2: Like that's what I did. I don't teach it because
Speaker 2: mostly it burns people out rather than burns it burns
Speaker 2: the trait out of their system. But to simplify in
Speaker 2: terms of spiritual depth, because there's a million reasons that
Speaker 2: people can meditate, especially in terms of awakening or enlightenment
Speaker 2: or something I think meditation, for instance, is a way
Speaker 2: of engaging with the mystery of being, the mystery of being, Like,
Speaker 2: you sit down and before we even think about how
Speaker 2: do I do this? What am I supposed to be doing?
Speaker 2: Whereas my mind supposed to be all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 2: Like the first the moment that you sit down and
Speaker 2: you realize, like, I don't even know who I am
Speaker 2: that's sitting here all this at that moment, I can
Speaker 2: remember the moment I had that realization, right, I just
Speaker 2: don't I don't know who's seeking. I don't know who's striving.
Speaker 2: I don't know who wants enlightenment. I don't know why
Speaker 2: I want it. I don't know the guy that's sitting
Speaker 2: on this darn cushion that's pushing so hard to make
Speaker 2: something happen. I don't even know what that is. And
Speaker 2: for some stroke of luck or fate or something that
Speaker 2: became hit me as a curiosity like, wow, I'm a
Speaker 2: mystery unto myself, and I can remember the first time
Speaker 2: I really realize that, and the first time I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know who I am, and that became more
Speaker 2: interesting than trying to find out who I am. I
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, what's it like not to know? What
Speaker 2: is it really like right now? Not to know? I
Speaker 2: know what it's like to struggle to try to know,
Speaker 2: But what's it like to not know and to just
Speaker 2: sort of it's the first time I kind of just
Speaker 2: let myself sort of ease back into that felt sense
Speaker 2: of the mystery of being and not try to solve
Speaker 2: it or change it or but just explore it, like
Speaker 2: what is that?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: What is my experience of being when I don't have
Speaker 2: any idea who and what I am? And this is
Speaker 2: I didn't have teachings of who are you? And all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff like that wasn't part of the
Speaker 2: spiritual culture that I So I came to all that
Speaker 2: kind of by myself. But so this is all sort
Speaker 2: of a long way of saying I think spiritual practice
Speaker 2: can also be entered into as a way of experientially
Speaker 2: connecting and exploring the mystery of being. And we start
Speaker 2: with the mystery of being right through the doorway of
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know who I am. I
Speaker 2: don't know what God is, I don't know what ah
Speaker 2: likement is, I don't know what awakening is, I don't
Speaker 2: know what life is I don't know any of this
Speaker 2: stuff really, and can I just stop, like right in
Speaker 2: the middle of that. And if we can stop in
Speaker 2: the middle of that, just for a moment, we realize
Speaker 2: it's not so bad. Actually it's pretty cool. Like it
Speaker 2: doesn't mean we want to stay in a state of
Speaker 2: ignorance forever, but just the mystery of being is pretty
Speaker 2: amazing itself. Yep, just like man, that is wild, but
Speaker 2: we're taught we just have to immediately solve it. You know.
Speaker 2: It goes into that either or thinking either I'm confused
Speaker 2: or I'm clear, or I'm awake or I'm asleep, or
Speaker 2: I'm this or I'm that, and there's this. But our
Speaker 2: life has lived in the middle ground those two polar opposites.
Speaker 2: Those are just sort of conceptual. The rest is where
Speaker 2: it's at, right And I think spirituality is an experiential
Speaker 2: encounter with the unknown, and yes that within that there
Speaker 2: is an innate draw to come to a deeper state
Speaker 2: of clarity or awakening or whatever we want to call that.
Speaker 2: But we actually come to that most efficiently by just
Speaker 2: diving into the mystery of being rather than trying to
Speaker 2: solve it. It's kind of like meditation. I remember I
Speaker 2: did a meditation with people a few years ago, and
Speaker 2: I said, so, we're going to sit down and just
Speaker 2: imagine that you had no idea what meditation was, none
Speaker 2: at all, and you're going to sit here and we're
Speaker 2: all going to meditate, but you don't know what meditation is,
Speaker 2: and you don't know how to go about it, and
Speaker 2: you don't know how to do it. And everyone just
Speaker 2: looked at me, like you've got to be kidding. I
Speaker 2: just try it, And so we'd sit down and be quiet,
Speaker 2: and I said, so, imagine you don't even know what
Speaker 2: it is to meditate, and therefore you don't know how
Speaker 2: to go about doing it. You don't know the first
Speaker 2: thing about it. Just imagine that. But imagine you were
Speaker 2: to enter into this that simply. And I said, just
Speaker 2: sit with that for a moment, and immediately you can
Speaker 2: feel in the whole room what's happening in the whole
Speaker 2: room is meditation is happening. All of a sudden, everything
Speaker 2: goes quiet because nobody knows what they're supposed to be doing,
Speaker 2: what meditation is supposed to be, what the right state
Speaker 2: they're trying to achieve, is how they're going about that
Speaker 2: spend it all that and then so then the mind
Speaker 2: is in a state of openness and receptivity. It's not
Speaker 2: asserting or denying anything. And that's actually meditation, you know,
Speaker 2: because I grew up dyslexic. It's sort of a dyslexic
Speaker 2: upside down backwards way of coming to meditation, do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? And it's amazing that, not that
Speaker 2: I would suggest people do that all the time, but
Speaker 2: who knows, maybe it would be a good idea, But
Speaker 2: it's just sort of a it was sort of a
Speaker 2: way of trying to show people that meditation is when
Speaker 2: we enter into the mystery of being and what does
Speaker 2: that mean? Like here, okay, here's what it means. Here's
Speaker 2: how we do it. The mystery means you don't know
Speaker 2: how to do it and you don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: Now just stop with that. And then in retrospect then
Speaker 2: it's like, did you notice that your mind is really quiet? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Did you notice how stable and ground and calm? Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's meditation, But I don't know how to do it. Again,
Speaker 2: that's the whole point, right, you.
Speaker 3: Know, when I have followed, you know you're you've got
Speaker 3: the book True Meditation and I mean you basically talk
Speaker 3: about meditation is about listening and letting go of agenda
Speaker 3: and just being. And what I've found is sometimes that
Speaker 3: is remarkably profound. Sometimes it is and sometimes I'm like,
Speaker 3: how is this any different than what happens all day
Speaker 3: long in my brain?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: I just sit there and I'm like, well, this just
Speaker 3: feels like what it feels like to be in the world,
Speaker 3: like D D so so on a on a slightly
Speaker 3: more practical level. Right, So I'm gonna sit going to
Speaker 3: sit down, and I'm going to basically allow everything to
Speaker 3: be exactly the way it is. And the way it
Speaker 3: is is runaway train. And I know that you know
Speaker 3: and and and you know I've got all these quotes
Speaker 3: here from me that I pulled from the book, and
Speaker 3: this idea of like, well, if you don't think thoughts
Speaker 3: are a problem, they're not a problem.
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, but that thinking runs pretty deep. It runs
Speaker 6: very deep, especially in spiritual right, and so what would
Speaker 6: you recommend for Okay, sometimes I sit down and I
Speaker 6: experience and I try and do nothing right, which is
Speaker 6: essentially at a to strip it down is sort of
Speaker 6: what we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Oh, if you can do it. Anytime you actually achieve
Speaker 2: totally doing nothing, you're in the deepest state of meditation possible.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And when I've and I have had some mind blowing
Speaker 3: experiences when I somehow managed to a lot get to
Speaker 3: a point where I just let completely go and boom.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so the profoundness is personally you know, has been
Speaker 3: deeply and transformative for me.
Speaker 5: I get where you're going there, So I'm going to
Speaker 5: go on retreat. Right, We're going to go on retreat.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 5: I'm going to sit there for six hours a day
Speaker 5: or so.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to give you some specific guidance about meditation. Okay,
Speaker 2: beyond what I've given so far. All right, because basically
Speaker 2: what we've been doing here is a sort of I
Speaker 2: think of it as setting the foundation of meditation. This
Speaker 2: isn't all of it, right, if it was just like
Speaker 2: you don't know what it is, you don't know how
Speaker 2: to do it, you don't know why you're going to Okay, kid,
Speaker 2: go at it, have a good time. Yeah, most people
Speaker 2: are going to spin their wheels and get nowhere and
Speaker 2: think about yesterday's breakfast and whatever. So so far what
Speaker 2: we've done is sort of I'm trying to sort of
Speaker 2: set sort of a good attitude to start with meditation, right,
Speaker 2: it's sort of an orientation and feeling cognitive orientation. Okay,
Speaker 2: so once you get that background, then you get down
Speaker 2: to the nitty gritty like, Okay, but that's great, but
Speaker 2: maybe I need a little more help than that. So sometimes,
Speaker 2: like you said, that can be just that can be
Speaker 2: mind blowingly revelatory, and some days you're just endlessly thinking
Speaker 2: about silly and stupid things.
Speaker 5: Right, not even and not the fun kind, right, not
Speaker 5: the fun kind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's.
Speaker 5: Not not not silly songs with Larry or Odd.
Speaker 2: Yet right, maybe maybe maybe even some really painful things, right, right,
Speaker 2: really really painful things. So okay, so then this is
Speaker 2: a kind of we're embraced. I think meditation is a
Speaker 2: sort of ultimately say, we're embracing a paradox, and that's
Speaker 2: not easy for a human being to do, to really
Speaker 2: embrace a sort of paradox is. Yeah, the foundation is
Speaker 2: letting everything be as it is, try not to control things,
Speaker 2: trying to let go all those things that kind of
Speaker 2: egos kind of can't do, right, They try, right, there's
Speaker 2: a sere that they they really hard to do so.
Speaker 2: Then Okay, then you can introduce a little bit of
Speaker 2: technique to start to give some orientation on top of
Speaker 2: that foundation. The reason I emphasize the foundation is because
Speaker 2: often it's like upside down. It's all technique, all trying
Speaker 2: to do it right, all trying to you know, as
Speaker 2: if it was some sort of mathematical equation you're spo
Speaker 2: perfect or something. But then we kind of come into
Speaker 2: something more that's more balanced, and then I'll go like, okay,
Speaker 2: how do I do this? Though, like you said, some
Speaker 2: days it works for me and some days it just
Speaker 2: I'm just in a sort of state of mental or
Speaker 2: maybe even emotional chaos. Okay, Well, start by listening to
Speaker 2: the quiet spaces inside there's noise. Okay, let the noise
Speaker 2: be the noise, leave it alone. In other words, stop
Speaker 2: trying to control the noise. That's kind of revolutionary. Okay,
Speaker 2: I've stopped trying to control my mind, but it's still
Speaker 2: all over the place. Okay, So we've just allowed to
Speaker 2: lay the foundation to whatever extents possible. Let go of
Speaker 2: trying to control your mind. Okay, now, but there's and
Speaker 2: then there's another step. Okay. Now, see when you're not
Speaker 2: trying to control your mind. Then you can start to
Speaker 2: hear the quiet spaces inside that your mind is actually happening.
Speaker 2: Every thought is happening within a space of quietness. If
Speaker 2: you're focused on trying to get your mind to stop,
Speaker 2: you'll never notice that your mind is rising in quietness.
Speaker 2: So start to notice the quietness. Okay, then someone might
Speaker 2: raise their hand. Well that sounds really good, Audya, but
Speaker 2: I can't really do that. I keep getting taken away
Speaker 2: like every half second by my mind. Okay, then we'll
Speaker 2: add just a little bit more structure, right, So we're
Speaker 2: going to add a little more structure. Okay, maybe give
Speaker 2: your mind something to do, or your attention something to
Speaker 2: do other than focusing on thoughts. And also maybe something
Speaker 2: that's more concrete than listening to the quiet inside, because
Speaker 2: maybe that's too tough on a given day, that's just
Speaker 2: not working for you. Okay, how about feeling feeling your
Speaker 2: breath in your belly. Just feel it and just make
Speaker 2: that the rest your attention on your breath. Just that, Okay,
Speaker 2: So I can rest my attention on my thoughts or
Speaker 2: I can rest my attention on my breath, okay, And
Speaker 2: then someone will raise their hand that was great. Audi.
Speaker 2: We just did a thirty minute meditation of resting my
Speaker 2: attention on the breath and the quiet spaces inside, and
Speaker 2: yet I got lost in my mind about five hundred
Speaker 2: times in thirty minutes. Right, what do I do? Okay? Okay,
Speaker 2: So every time you get lost, kindly, kindly, kindly, gently,
Speaker 2: just encourage your mind your attention back to your breath
Speaker 2: or brack to the quiet spaces or listening. Just come
Speaker 2: into a state of listening. But I still get lost
Speaker 2: a hundred times. All right, you get lost. But the
Speaker 2: important thing is when you're lost, there's going to be
Speaker 2: a moment when you recognize your lost in your mind.
Speaker 2: That moment's super significant because you didn't get you don't
Speaker 2: all of a sudden go, my god, I've been thinking
Speaker 2: about yesterday's breakfast from any It just occurs, right, It's
Speaker 2: not something you did. You just realize I was thinking
Speaker 2: about yesterday's breakfast at that moment. This is incredibly important
Speaker 2: for meditators because right here is where most meditators make
Speaker 2: a critical mistake. They get upset, they get disappointed, They
Speaker 2: maybe judge themselves like God, doing nothing but getting lost,
Speaker 2: and they get sort of judgmental. When you do that,
Speaker 2: you're literally conditioning your brain that every time you you
Speaker 2: become a bit more conscious, every time you come out
Speaker 2: of your narrative for a moment, you're just gonna judge yourself.
Speaker 2: So you're conditioning yourself every time I come out of
Speaker 2: my narrative, it's a negative experience. It's a negative, critical
Speaker 2: upset experience. Are you conditioning yourself to come out of
Speaker 2: your narrative very often? No, if someone's gonna like yell
Speaker 2: at you and brate you every time you get lost
Speaker 2: in your mind, how often are you gonna You're setting
Speaker 2: yourself up to stay lost. So that's why I often
Speaker 2: put a lot of emphasis on Yeah, it can be frustrating,
Speaker 2: you know, for a while if you get lost and
Speaker 2: your mind over and over and over and over. But
Speaker 2: each of those moments to bring the attention back in
Speaker 2: the most benign way possible, you are going to be
Speaker 2: exercising your humility, right because you're going to be you're
Speaker 2: going to encounter failure over and over and over, and
Speaker 2: you're going to see your relationship with failure, right, and
Speaker 2: so meditation that's it also connects with life because in
Speaker 2: the part of life is failure, but only over and over,
Speaker 2: not exclusively fortunately, right. So it's so meditation starts to
Speaker 2: show us our relationship with failure, things not going the
Speaker 2: way we want when they want them to go Otherwise, Okay,
Speaker 2: how are you going to be with that? You're going
Speaker 2: to get all upset, You're going to judge yourself and
Speaker 2: shame yourself. How what you're going to be? And then
Speaker 2: you can maybe you can start to turn that little
Speaker 2: piece of conditioning around where you go, Oh lucky am I?
Speaker 2: Somehow I came out of my being lost in my narrative?
Speaker 2: Hmm jeez, thanks Universe for gifting me with not being lost,
Speaker 2: the coming out of my little dream there, because I
Speaker 2: could have been in a dream forever, right, And a
Speaker 2: lot of people are They never get out of it
Speaker 2: seemingly for a minute. And there you are, you popped
Speaker 2: out of it. What are you to do about that? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I often think of it like and it was an
Speaker 3: someone else who said, like, if you can celebrate that
Speaker 3: moment because you woke up, Yeah, that moment of like
Speaker 3: I was off wandering wait instead of oh I was
Speaker 3: off wondering what's wrong with me? It's like that moment
Speaker 3: you woke up right, you know, and it's almost you
Speaker 3: could if you can invert that from oh darn it,
Speaker 3: I did it again to oh good, I caught myself right.
Speaker 3: I've started sending a couple of text messages after each
Speaker 3: podcast listener, with positive reminders about what's discussed and invitations
Speaker 3: to apply the wisdom to your life. It's free, and
Speaker 3: listeners have told me that these texts really helped to
Speaker 3: pull them out of autopilot and reconnect them with what's important.
Speaker 3: When you get a text for me during your day
Speaker 3: to day life, it's one more thing that helps you
Speaker 3: further bridge that gap between what you know and what
Speaker 3: you do. Positive messages when you need them from me
Speaker 3: to you. So if you'd like to hear from me
Speaker 3: a few times a week via text, go to oneufeed
Speaker 3: dot net slash text and sign up for free. This
Speaker 3: was said in the twenty years that I studied meditation
Speaker 3: about how important it was to come back kindly. I
Speaker 3: think I needed almost even beyond like come back non judgmentally.
Speaker 3: I think I needed almost like no celebrate that.
Speaker 2: Moment, Sure, if you go, I need a next step.
Speaker 3: My nature of judging myself for wandering off was so strong.
Speaker 2: There was a time many years ago, would when that
Speaker 2: phenomena would happen, and each time I would realize I'd
Speaker 2: been lost in my mind to say thank You's just
Speaker 2: that little moment of gratitude, like, thank you, gee, I
Speaker 2: came out of this. And I don't know how I
Speaker 2: came out of it, but I came out of it, right, jeez,
Speaker 2: whatever it is that helped me come out of it,
Speaker 2: thank you. And you know, sometimes that feels authentic and real,
Speaker 2: and sometimes it feels phony, you know, but okay, sometimes
Speaker 2: it feels phony, but you're turning around a conditioned pattern,
Speaker 2: and that's the important thing. So I think I really
Speaker 2: like the way you emphasize sometimes you almost have to
Speaker 2: go a little over the top and the appreciation part
Speaker 2: because you're you're just turning around a pattern. And I
Speaker 2: think it's useful. I like to talk about this stuff
Speaker 2: also in a bigger sense, Like I said, when that happens,
Speaker 2: you are encountering your relationship with failure, and that's not
Speaker 2: just a meditative thing, that's a life thing. Like it's
Speaker 2: a pretty good idea to start to bring some intention
Speaker 2: to your relationship with that, because that's going to be
Speaker 2: really impactful on your life. And then meditation isn't just
Speaker 2: about meditating. Well, it's like Matt, I am encountering life
Speaker 2: attitudes and I'm encountering them such the way that I
Speaker 2: can start to turn those attitudes around in a way
Speaker 2: that can actually work for me rather than hinder me
Speaker 2: at every turn.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you had a line that I really liked.
Speaker 3: You said you could boil all of spirituality down to
Speaker 3: the art and practice of listening to nothing. And then
Speaker 3: this next part I loved and trusting in the difficulty.
Speaker 3: I love that idea of trusting in the difficulty. Like
Speaker 3: it's okay, yeah, And I think that's what you're speaking
Speaker 3: to here. It's your relationship to failure, it's your relationship
Speaker 3: to difficulty.
Speaker 2: It's okay, yeah, Because there's a part of we're talking
Speaker 2: about meditation a lot, but since we are, there's limitations
Speaker 2: to this idea. But meditation is this very intimate act.
Speaker 2: Right if you looked at meditation almost more like practicing
Speaker 2: an instrument, Like you know, when you start to learn
Speaker 2: an instrument, you're screwing up right and left. It's not
Speaker 2: a pretty thing, right, You're making mistakes over and over
Speaker 2: and you're having to do these really redundant exercises, and
Speaker 2: basically you are reconditioning yourself right, your fingers or your
Speaker 2: breath or you know, all sorts of things. But since
Speaker 2: there's an instrument between you and your efforts, it's a
Speaker 2: little less intimate than when you're meditating. There's no instrument.
Speaker 2: You are the instrument, so it's easier to kind of
Speaker 2: get more self critical. Right. But if you saw it
Speaker 2: almost like I'm learning how to play this thing, and
Speaker 2: it's called my mind and my attention, and you know,
Speaker 2: just like I would learn how to play a trumpet
Speaker 2: or a guitar or something, and it's really important. The
Speaker 2: patterns that I setting now are significant, They're really important.
Speaker 2: They're more important than an instrument, because you know, at
Speaker 2: least at the end of the day, you can put
Speaker 2: your trumpet down or your good card down, but you
Speaker 2: can't put your mind down, unfortunately sometimes. So I just
Speaker 2: like to mention this because I think the more we
Speaker 2: start to look at meditation as sort of this metaphor
Speaker 2: for life, and that it shows us our attitude towards
Speaker 2: all sorts of things in life, towards success, towards failure,
Speaker 2: towards disappointment, towards the heart opening. If people can have
Speaker 2: these extraordinary heart openings and for one person that's revelatory
Speaker 2: and beautiful, and for someone else that's scary and frightening,
Speaker 2: and it reminds them of all the ways that intimacy
Speaker 2: can hurt them, and however that unfolds, It's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this isn't just about meditation. This is about your life.
Speaker 2: This is about intimate encounters that you're going to have
Speaker 2: in life and what your relationship is when you feel
Speaker 2: open and vulnerable, and it's important to see how your
Speaker 2: system relates to that and realize that those are changeable.
Speaker 2: It's not set in stone. You know that maybe you
Speaker 2: get a little frightened or you feel a little insecure
Speaker 2: when your heart opens, but sometimes something like meditation can
Speaker 2: be a safe place in which you can experiment with
Speaker 2: changing your relationship with that. You know, like, Okay, it
Speaker 2: feels a little weird when my heart opens. It feels
Speaker 2: lovely and I feel more connected, but there's this sort
Speaker 2: of strange, ominous danger sort of signal I'm getting and
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, well, meditation is a pretty safe thing.
Speaker 2: Can you just experience a little bit of that anxiety?
Speaker 2: Or fear you have with openness and vulnerability. After all,
Speaker 2: you're sitting in a cushion in a room. Probably nothing's
Speaker 2: going to happen to you, right, But anyway, it's just
Speaker 2: the way I think making these connections to life is
Speaker 2: really important. And otherwise our spiritual practices, whether the meditation
Speaker 2: or anything else, remain this limited thing that's sort of
Speaker 2: my little spiritual life. I think it's important to say,
Speaker 2: whatever practice I'm doing in spirituality, how does this connect
Speaker 2: with my everyday world? And if it doesn't connect, I
Speaker 2: got to re examine it because it needs.
Speaker 3: To connect, right, And that sort of takes us back
Speaker 3: to kind of where we started with this idea of
Speaker 3: you know this, you know important question? What's really important?
Speaker 3: How do I take some deeper realization or deeper thing
Speaker 3: and how do I embody that right into my life?
Speaker 2: Well, that's that becomes the thing, isn't it. Because we
Speaker 2: have these revelatory moments and they can remain private, closeted,
Speaker 2: little moments of revelation that can be transformative and beautiful,
Speaker 2: or we can even see that as an end, like
Speaker 2: oh I had the experience that's written in the book. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's right, I accomplish something right, or we can also
Speaker 2: see that as a sort of new beginning, like, Okay,
Speaker 2: that experience is a nice, pleasant experience of freedom and
Speaker 2: well being and release and all sorts of things. But
Speaker 2: what does that show me? From that perspective? What's meaningful
Speaker 2: and valuable? From a revelatory perspective, what's valuable in life
Speaker 2: is greed, hatred and getting everything I can get. Valuable
Speaker 2: is love connectedness, like what becomes what becomes valuable and
Speaker 2: what becomes meaningful? And I think that's what we often
Speaker 2: don't ask ourselves because we're so focused on the experience.
Speaker 2: And for a while, that's fine, but we fail often
Speaker 2: to see that that from that experience and awaken perspective
Speaker 2: values different things in life than our conditioned mind values.
Speaker 2: It has a different life orientation than our egos have.
Speaker 2: And just to start to go, what is that? What
Speaker 2: is that? And what would it mean for me to
Speaker 2: act on that? On those values that come from my
Speaker 2: own revelation today? Because I like to bring this back
Speaker 2: to something's very pragmatic. You know, Okay, you had a
Speaker 2: state of interconnectedness and all things. It was revelatory and
Speaker 2: something about you may never be the same, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: but what does interconnectedness mean when you come home and
Speaker 2: you're just strung out and tired from a long, hard
Speaker 2: day's work and you had a lot of challenges, and
Speaker 2: your four year old kid comes jumping on your lap
Speaker 2: and want your soul attention, and you're just exhausted and
Speaker 2: you'd really like to just have a you know, those
Speaker 2: those moments to yourself and okay, what is that from
Speaker 2: the perspective of your own spiritual insight? What is it value?
Speaker 2: At that moment about that four year old it wants
Speaker 2: your attention? What becomes important? Yeah, you're tired and you're
Speaker 2: wrung out, and you'll need to take care of yourself
Speaker 2: and get some rest. But at that moment, what is
Speaker 2: it value? I think if we miss that those kind
Speaker 2: of questions, there can be this lack of connection between
Speaker 2: our own more revelatory experiences of being and our actual
Speaker 2: human experience of being.
Speaker 3: You said earlier, Servants of truth, Right, how do I
Speaker 3: be true to and serve what I have realized?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 3: Instead of again and again and again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, The great and flawed spiritual master Truemanting Trumpa wrote
Speaker 2: a book called Spiritual Materialism, Right, and then it kind
Speaker 2: of comes down to that if we keep viewing spirituality
Speaker 2: as sort of collecting more and greater and grander experiences,
Speaker 2: it can become a form of spiritual materialism. To start
Speaker 2: out by wanting revelation and a deeper sense of connectedness
Speaker 2: or awakening as an experience. Fine, that's part of how
Speaker 2: the impulse moves. But it's tricky, you know, because as
Speaker 2: you I'm sure experienced, you know, some of these revelatory
Speaker 2: experiences are they're about the most pleasant things you can experience,
Speaker 2: which makes them about the most highly addictive experiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as a former you know heroin ADCT familiar
Speaker 3: with chasing the high, Right, it's an interesting relationship.
Speaker 2: Well, I imagine that's where even though you probably wouldn't want
Speaker 2: to recreate the road you took to get the wisdom,
Speaker 2: but that may be the place where your past experience,
Speaker 2: as hard one as it was, was, man, just chasing
Speaker 2: the high isn't a way to a great, happy, successful life.
Speaker 2: Addiction can teach us that. But you know, those people
Speaker 2: that aren't haven't been addicted to substances. We can fool
Speaker 2: ourselves into thinking we're not addicts, and there you are
Speaker 2: just endlessly chasing the next spiritual experience, but hopefully higher
Speaker 2: and higher and higher. And it's like, what is the
Speaker 2: difference between you than and a heroin addict? And is
Speaker 2: there that big a difference? Like maybe not? And so
Speaker 2: that's the balance. Of course. It was like, we have
Speaker 2: these pleasant we have these experiences, their revelatory, their life changing,
Speaker 2: and if we simply views them as experience, then we
Speaker 2: can become sort of addicted.
Speaker 3: Right to having those, which again circles this kind of
Speaker 3: back to. At least for me, the way out of
Speaker 3: a lot of that was to what am I in
Speaker 3: service to? That's it, right if if what I'm in
Speaker 3: service to and what I'm focused on and I spend
Speaker 3: all my attention is me and how I feel. I mean,
Speaker 3: that was the big revelation in me when I got sober,
Speaker 3: when I read and it was in the I remember
Speaker 3: it was in the AA Big Book, and it basically
Speaker 3: said selfishness, self centeredness is the root of our problem,
Speaker 3: right and and there can be a there can be
Speaker 3: a judgment to that that can rub the wrong way.
Speaker 2: But when I really but as a statement it's very true,
Speaker 2: isn't right? Right?
Speaker 5: And when I realized, like that was it.
Speaker 3: The whole thing was all oriented towards how am I feeling?
Speaker 3: And that when I realized that the surest way out
Speaker 3: of that for me was to start to really try
Speaker 3: and care about others.
Speaker 5: What am I serving?
Speaker 3: It's a paradigm that has helped me with things like
Speaker 3: spiritual practice and retreat and all that. Is, how like
Speaker 3: this experience I'm going Because of course I want the
Speaker 3: experience of peacefulness and all that. Yeah, but how will
Speaker 3: that perhaps allow me to come back out of that
Speaker 3: and serve better and be better able to help the
Speaker 3: people I try? Like, you know, I think both those
Speaker 3: things are going on at the same time.
Speaker 2: It's a reciprocal thing, isn't it. You dive into the
Speaker 2: well of being so that you can re emerge with
Speaker 2: something deeper and more beautiful to offer. And I think
Speaker 2: that gets to your point, and I think it's a
Speaker 2: really important point, especially in modern day spirituality where just
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, it's sort of been cut
Speaker 2: off from its its traditional roots, right. And part of
Speaker 2: that's like really great, right, It's it's freed itself from
Speaker 2: the bonds of you know, religious dogmatism. So okay, that's
Speaker 2: really good. But there's a there's another side to that too, right,
Speaker 2: Some of those, almost all those traditions that I knew of,
Speaker 2: they all had to have heavy element of service, right,
Speaker 2: which yeah, can become laden with judgment and shame or
Speaker 2: trying to be a saint or all that kind of
Speaker 2: stuff it can be. But if you just take the
Speaker 2: service part, like, no mistake that all these traditions realized,
Speaker 2: there is something extremely important about service, right, about serving
Speaker 2: serving that which we that which we love. Right, And
Speaker 2: I think so, I think the important the importance of
Speaker 2: that is no no greater for an addict and no
Speaker 2: less for somebody that doesn't think they're an addict. Like
Speaker 2: that's what gets us out of the of the loop
Speaker 2: of having our life endlessly oriented towards the next experience.
Speaker 2: That's why I've said at the beginning when we were talking,
Speaker 2: that it's more important to have ourselves oriented around something
Speaker 2: like meaning than mere happiness. Right Because of course, like
Speaker 2: I say meaning, then the way I'm using it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean like necessarily something you can philosophically state to your
Speaker 2: friends very coherently. It's not a something like that, but meaning,
Speaker 2: like when you're in service and it's coming from a
Speaker 2: true place in you. It's a meaningful experience, right, all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, your life feels like to me, meaning
Speaker 2: means is those moments when you feel like things have
Speaker 2: lined up, you're at the right place, at the right time,
Speaker 2: doing the right thing. And so often when we're in
Speaker 2: real service, those things all line up. We feel like
Speaker 2: we're in the right place at the right time, doing
Speaker 2: the right thing. It just feels like that. And I
Speaker 2: think that's the element that modern spirituality needs to sort
Speaker 2: of have really reinvigorated, but without the shame, the blame
Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff that that can come
Speaker 2: as the old baggage. But I think that's otherwise what
Speaker 2: are we doing. We're just chasing experiences right right. It's
Speaker 2: a self it's a self centered, narcissistic pursuit unless it
Speaker 2: has some sense of the welfare of all beings, you know,
Speaker 2: And how can we not have a sense of that
Speaker 2: when we really when we really experience the unity of existence?
Speaker 3: Yes, right, right, And that is the perspective that you know,
Speaker 3: when I've had that perspective, like really the connection and
Speaker 3: the true unity, it's astounding how natural the idea of
Speaker 3: caring about and taking care and serving others. It feels
Speaker 3: almost inevitable.
Speaker 2: It just flows out of you, doesn't it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then there's other times where it's, you know, so
Speaker 3: it's a little little, you know, a.
Speaker 5: Little harder role, so to speak.
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of people mentioning that. They usually
Speaker 2: mention it in forms of a sort of a question
Speaker 2: when I teach on like what we're talking about, and
Speaker 2: they'll say, but odji, I've had these moments, these times,
Speaker 2: you know, often in the wake of some big insight
Speaker 2: or awakening where like what you're talking about just happened
Speaker 2: and it was spontaneous and I didn't have to exercise
Speaker 2: intention or bring thought to it. It just was like
Speaker 2: it was like breathing and like, and what you're saying
Speaker 2: is sort of bringing like this intention and it seems
Speaker 2: more heavy handed and da da d you know all
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. You're not saying that to me,
Speaker 2: but it just brought this to mind, and I'm saying, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're right. When you're in a really open, clear space,
Speaker 2: it tends to be very spontaneous and you don't you
Speaker 2: don't really have to exercise much intention. It's just it is,
Speaker 2: it's just like breathe because it's natural. And what happens
Speaker 2: when it doesn't feel quite that natural? Right, And so
Speaker 2: a lot of the people that have had those experiences,
Speaker 2: what they will communicate what they want is they're hoping
Speaker 2: to have an experience that's big enough and complete enough
Speaker 2: and total enough, so all this will happen without any
Speaker 2: intention forever. Amen. And hey, man, if you can come
Speaker 2: to that, good for you. Like great, okay, but that's
Speaker 2: not a very reasonable thing to shoot at. That's not
Speaker 2: a very good ultimate aim. Like if that's what ends
Speaker 2: up happening, great, And I think the more we are
Speaker 2: residing in the truth of our being, it does happen
Speaker 2: more naturally, more spontaneously, with less or little or sometimes
Speaker 2: no intention at all. But if that's all we shoot for,
Speaker 2: I think we're not actually taking responsibility for what we've realized.
Speaker 2: That's another sort of old fashioned idea. Would it mean
Speaker 2: to actually take responsibility for my own revelations if those
Speaker 2: show me connectedness? What would it mean for me to
Speaker 2: step up to the plate and take responsibility for my
Speaker 2: own experience of connectedness and unity, whether I feel it
Speaker 2: or I don't, right, Because then you're outside of the
Speaker 2: realm of the addict again, right, it's not whether I
Speaker 2: feel it or not. It's I'm acting on what I've
Speaker 2: seen and what I know to be true, and I'm
Speaker 2: taking the responsibility to step up and do that. And
Speaker 2: when it happens spontaneously, great, But when it doesn't, that
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you're simply left trying to chase the experience.
Speaker 2: It leans no, no, no, no, no no. You don't
Speaker 2: have to wait for the experience. You can step up
Speaker 2: like right now.
Speaker 3: And sometimes if you're quote unquote lucky, the stepping up,
Speaker 3: you know, it's the it's the saying I you know
Speaker 3: listeners have got to be tired of, which is sometimes
Speaker 3: you can't think your way into right action. You have
Speaker 3: to act your way into right thinking.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to put that.
Speaker 3: Sometimes stepping up into service right then brings.
Speaker 2: That's right, It opens the door.
Speaker 3: It opens the door for the feeling to follow that
Speaker 3: sometimes right, Yeah, it does something.
Speaker 2: But yeah, right, when we're engaged in right action that
Speaker 2: it always it will whether we're suffused with this sense
Speaker 2: of well being, But underneath it, I think when we're
Speaker 2: really engaged in right action, there's something about it that
Speaker 2: feels right. Right, and connected and aligned, and sometimes you're
Speaker 2: completely suffused without experience, and sometimes it's a little less obvious,
Speaker 2: but it does feel aligned.
Speaker 3: We talked about my girlfriend's mom and you know, the Alzheimer's,
Speaker 3: and that's we often reflect on, like we're living according
Speaker 3: to our values and that there's something underneath that feels right.
Speaker 3: It's a deeper kind of rightness. The surface feels like
Speaker 3: oh my, you know, like, but the deeper is like okay.
Speaker 3: And as somebody who has lived outside of my values
Speaker 3: plenty of times, I know that you know, you can
Speaker 3: live outside your value and things on the surface field good,
Speaker 3: but if you look a little deeper, you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, this is kind of the inverse of that.
Speaker 2: That is, I'm so glad you mentioned that too, And
Speaker 2: I think you know your girlfriend and you're dealing with
Speaker 2: her mother's illness is a great, great example, Like it's
Speaker 2: not easy every day, it's probably not even easy most
Speaker 2: hours of the day, and yet you're doing it because
Speaker 2: I like the word you use, because it aligns with
Speaker 2: your values, right, with the values that are inherent in
Speaker 2: your own in your own depth. And there's something about
Speaker 2: that that even when it's not easy, it feels it
Speaker 2: feels right. And that's kind of what I'm oriented trying
Speaker 2: to get when I talk about meaning. Yeah, right, it's
Speaker 2: hard to define what that is, but you know it
Speaker 2: when you when you experience it, And I think that's
Speaker 2: that's certainly something more noble to aim at than how
Speaker 2: do I feel it every moment? Like well, yeah, but
Speaker 2: maybe maybe maybe your girlfriend's mother she has Alzheimer's, and hey,
Speaker 2: maybe I don't feel good at this moment. Maybe it's
Speaker 2: really challenging for this moment. But fortunately you have something
Speaker 2: in your back pocket, right, you have what's what's true
Speaker 2: and right for you, whether you feel great about it
Speaker 2: or you don't feel great about it. And I think
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, like you get to
Speaker 2: the end of that day, and that day has meaning
Speaker 2: and it has value, and you know it. Nobody has
Speaker 2: to tell you you've you've done the right thing because you
Speaker 2: feel it. Right, even if you fall in the bed,
Speaker 2: you know, completely exhausted, and you know, well, you've been
Speaker 2: a parent. You know that probably with raising children too,
Speaker 2: as my mom said, yeah, raising kids, and she loved
Speaker 2: being a mother. She says, it's not a picnic every day, right,
Speaker 2: Some days it's it's super super super difficult. But since
Speaker 2: there's a higher calling, there's a higher sense of well
Speaker 2: being too. Yep, right, there's something that transcends feeling.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: I think that is a perfect place for us to
Speaker 3: wrap up. So thank you so much again for a
Speaker 3: green to come on for yet another time and spend so.
Speaker 5: Much time with us.
Speaker 3: It's been my pleasure.
Speaker 2: Nice to check with you, Eric, nice to be with
Speaker 2: you again too.
Speaker 1: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
Speaker 1: consider making a donation to The One You Feed podcast.
Speaker 1: Head over to oneufeed dot net slash support. The One
Speaker 1: You Feed Podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors
Speaker 1: for supporting the show.