1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: It's that time, time, time, time, Luck and load. Michael 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Verry Show is on the air. 3 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 2: What are the things I really enjoy that Tucker Carlson 4 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 2: does these days? You know, in some ways, Tucker getting 5 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: fired from Fox has turned out to be a good thing. Now, 6 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: the circumstances behind his firing, I think we're chicken and 7 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: I can't add the word to that i'd like to, 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: because it would violate FCC regulations. And it also, I 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 2: think probably reduced his overall influence because he was on 10 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: It was the biggest show in all of cable news history, 11 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: and he was on nightly and I think that gave 12 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 2: him a broad reach. But in many ways, you know, 13 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: you talk about when one door closes, another opens, and 14 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 2: you talk about God's plan for your life. It sure 15 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: seems that Tucker is following that direction and is in 16 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: a situation now where he's making a difference by being 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 2: able to take on some really tough positions that he 18 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: probably could not have taken on where he's still at Fox. 19 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: But one of the. 20 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 2: Things I have enjoyed of late because I follow him 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: on YouTube, is that he will have he will have 22 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 2: conversations with individuals, not because they've written a book, or 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 2: they're in a movie, or they've done something of late, 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: but because they're interesting and they're far ranging conversations. And 25 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: over the years we've done that, and I find it's 26 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 2: funny that many listeners need some structure. 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: Hey, why are you talking to that guy? 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: And sometimes I'm talking to the guy because I find 29 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 2: it to be interesting. And today is one of those cases. 30 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 2: Now he's written a book almost exactly a year ago 31 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: March twenty sixth of last year, it launched called Pagan America, 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: The Decline of Christianity and the and the Dark Age 33 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: to Come. 34 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I don't have my glasses on. 35 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: It's called Pagan America, The Decline of Christianity and the 36 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: Dark Age to Come, and we will weave into our 37 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: conversation references to the book. But I had him on 38 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: because I thought he was interesting. His name is John 39 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 2: Daniel Davidson, and he had made some comments on Twitter 40 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 2: which caused me to go to his Twitter page. John 41 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 2: d Davidson is his page, and I thought some of 42 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: what he says is very interesting because there's things that 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: people don't want to say, but I believe many people feel. 44 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 2: And then we start our conversation, and I find out 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 2: that he's given up Austin, Texas, where he was living, 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: and he's gone back home to Alaska to build a 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: log cabin that he lives in. And I thought, if 48 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: this guy isn't interesting, then who is. But let's start 49 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: with the first question, John Daniel Davidson. John, you posted 50 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: a statement that I'm seeing more and more conservatives say 51 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: and a lot of people afraid to say. And it 52 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: has a very deep meaning and you don't seem to 53 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 2: me as a type too scared to discuss it, and 54 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: that is that America is a nation, not an idea. 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: Bono had the famous you know statement that America's an idea. 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: Vivek Ramaswamy said, America is an idea. That is, I 57 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: think a very veiled reference to some deep cultural and 58 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: political statements. And I suspect you share my opinion because 59 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: you've written about this. Why do you make the statement 60 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: that America is a nation not an idea? Why is 61 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: America not an idea? 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question and a discussion that we 63 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: have to have. And you're right, a lot of people 64 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: don't want to have this discussion because they're afraid of 65 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: being called racist or xenophobic by making the argument that 66 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: we're a nation, that we're a people with a shared 67 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: past and a common future, a people in a nation, 68 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: just like other countries, are peoples and nations and not ideas. 69 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: And I think the reason to make that state, to 70 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: make that argument now is because I think this debate 71 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: over American identity is the most important debate and is 72 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: actually the issue that's sort of behind a lot of 73 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: our political conflicts right now. And it posits two very 74 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: different visions of America. One is vivek Ramaswami bono kind 75 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: of vision that America is just a set of abstract 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: principles that anyone anywhere in the world can subscribe to 77 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: and magically become an American. Right, and we've been sort 78 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: of propagandized and indoctrinated into accepting this interpretation of America, 79 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: which is a relatively new way of thinking about our 80 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: country that is not consonant with how most Americans have 81 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: understood themselves for most of our history. And the alternative 82 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: to that, the other side of the coin, which I argue, 83 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: is that America is a nation. That is to say, 84 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: we have a particular culture, language, history, customs, a whole 85 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: way of life, and that in order to really become American, 86 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: you have to adopt that way of life, those customs, 87 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: that language, those traditions, and make them your own and 88 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: have no other allegiance and no other home but America. 89 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: And that is really not the case for a lot 90 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: of people who call themselves Americans today and have what 91 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: we call hyphenated identities, right, And so this is a 92 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: really important discussion. It's something that we have to talk about, 93 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: and it's something that conservatives especially have to get comfortable 94 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: making the case that we're not just an idea. And 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: the reason that's important. If we're just an idea, what 96 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: that means, What that really means is that we are 97 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: just economic units, a tax farm for a global empire 98 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: controlled by global corporate interests that want open markets and 99 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: open borders. And our nation is nothing but GDP and 100 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: that is not what a nation is, and that is 101 00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: not what America is, right, And it's one of the 102 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: many things that separates us from China. For instance, you. 103 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: Write about how particularly folks on the right in this 104 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 2: country and self proclaimed conservatives, are very uncomfortable with this 105 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: notion of which you speak, And I have been asked 106 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: before in interviews, is America a Christian nation? And my 107 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 2: answer to that is, yes, we are a Christian nation. 108 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: We were Christian in our founding. Our founders were folks 109 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 2: very focused on creating a land of religious freedom from 110 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: the King Anglican Church, and that that is a major 111 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: part of our culture. It doesn't mean you have to 112 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: be a Christian to live in the United States, but yes, 113 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 2: we are a Christian nation. 114 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: How do you that's my position. How do you answer 115 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: that question? I agree with you. I think there's when 116 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: you're honest with the history, and when you're honest with 117 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: what our founder said and who they were and kind 118 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: of where they came from, you come to the inescapable 119 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: conclusion that America is a Christian nation. At the very least, 120 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: we can say with a lot of confidence that our founders, 121 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: the people who created this country, understood themselves to be 122 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: creating a country in a form of government that was 123 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: for and could only work with a Christian people. And 124 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: to the extent that we are no longer a Christian people, 125 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: which that's part of what I argue in my book, 126 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: is that we're rapidly de christianizing. We have a mismatch 127 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: between our form of government and the kind of people 128 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: that we are. John Adams of course famously said, and 129 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: he wasn't the only one who said this, but he 130 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: most famously said that our constitution was meant for a 131 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: moral and religious people and is wholly unfit for any other. Now, 132 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like a country. That's just a set 133 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: of propositions that anyway to that founds like a country. 134 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: John, for just a moment, I'm up against a break here. 135 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: John Daniel Davidson is our guest. His book is Pagan America, 136 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: The Decline of Christianity and the Dark Age. 137 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: To Come, will continue our comp Michael ry Glad in 138 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: the System. 139 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: Modern John Daniel Davidson is our guest. We're talking about 140 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 2: this notion. His book, by the way, is Pagan America, 141 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 2: The Decline of Christianity and the Dark Age to Come. 142 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: You posted something which was the reason I reached. 143 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: Out to you and wanted to talk to you today. 144 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: You wrote, the case of Mahmood Khalil is instructive. No 145 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: matter how long he's here as an American or what 146 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: his legal status is, Khalil will probably never really become 147 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: an American because being an American is about much more 148 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: than going through a neutral administrative process. I read this 149 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 2: about five times. I thought about it, I pondered it, 150 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: I pulled it apart and put it back together. I 151 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: found it a very, very fascinating statement. I think a 152 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: lot of us feel this way. I think a lot 153 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: of Americans feel this way, but would be uncomfortable stating 154 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 2: it publicly. So I would like you to take one 155 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 2: moment and tell folks who don't know about Khalil and 156 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: Columbia and what happened, and then explain what you mean 157 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 2: by this, and let me read it again, folks, because 158 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 2: you're not getting to look at the words, You're just 159 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 2: hearing them spoken. The case of Mamood Khalil is instructive. 160 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: No matter how long he's here or what his legal 161 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 2: status is, Khalil will probably never really become an American 162 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: because being an American is about much more than going 163 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,359 Speaker 2: through a new Trull administrative process. 164 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: So tell us for a minute who he is and 165 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: what this means. Yeah, this is the Colombia grad student 166 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: who helped organize pro Hamas protests and demonstrations on Columbia's 167 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: campus after the October seventh Hamas attack on Israel in 168 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 1: which one hundred some odd people were flaughtered. He's a 169 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: pro Hamas activist and apparently, according to the authorities, allegedly 170 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: a pro Hamas or a Hamas agent, and he was. 171 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: He's a He came here from Syria not too many 172 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: years ago and quickly acquired a green card under one 173 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: of Joe Biden's refugee programs and enrolled at the Columbia. 174 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: And he has been arrested, and I think the Trump 175 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: administration is looking to deport him, revoke his green card 176 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: status for these pro Hamas activities and rendering support to Hamas. 177 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: Hamas of course as a terrorist organization, so it's illegal 178 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: to support them in any material way. But I said 179 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: that because you know it directly bears on this discussion 180 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: we're having about what what does it mean to be 181 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: an American? Someone like Khalil can go through an administrative 182 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: process to apply to a refugee program, to get a 183 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: green card, to enroll at Columbia, to live here, maybe 184 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: even acquire legal citizenship or you know, permanent legal status 185 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,359 Speaker 1: of some kind. But will that person be an American? 186 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: And if we if we accept the argument that America 187 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: is a nation and not just an idea. Then the 188 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: answer must be no, because an American would never support 189 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: an organization like Hamas. It would it would never protest 190 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: in support of an organization like HAMAS. That is totally 191 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: antithetical to the spearpirit of this American nation and the 192 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: American people. And I think we've gotten caught in this 193 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: way of thinking where we've accepted this argument that Americans 194 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: an idea such that anyone with however foreign, their views, 195 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: however alien their culture or way of life, or political 196 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: and social views, if they just go through this neutral process, 197 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: they are somehow an American. And I think that's false. 198 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: I think everyone knows that's false. Nobody wants to say 199 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: it because you get accused of being a racist, but 200 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: we all know that someone like Khalil will never really 201 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: be an American unless he goes to a radical conversion 202 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: and adopts our morality and our way of life and 203 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: our customs and our traditions and rejects groups like Comas 204 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: and Islamic extremism. And that's you know, that's not to 205 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: say he can't become an American, but that he probably won't. 206 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 2: So that's not to say that he needs to convert 207 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: to Christianity in order to be what we would call 208 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: loosely an American. And I don't mean which passport you carry. 209 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: I'm not putting words in your mouth. 210 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: I'm asking No, he wouldn't need to convert to Christianity, 211 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: but it would sure help well. 212 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: So for anyone who doesn't understand, you're not suggesting that 213 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: someone needs to be white, or a Christian or anything else, 214 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: explain that again, if you would, what it means to 215 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: be an American. And I found this interesting. We share 216 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 2: a lot of listeners and followers with Matt Walsh, and 217 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: he made a comment, I think in response to what 218 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: you said, that we're back to the what is a woman? 219 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: Again? 220 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: These are things we need to be able to define 221 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 2: and it makes us uncomfortable. And I love the fact 222 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: that you're not uncomfortable. It's direct, it's truth, and you 223 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 2: stated it. 224 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: So if you would, Yeah, I mentioned this a little 225 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: bit in the piece that I wrote, which was only 226 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: a small part of that. He was in the news, 227 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,319 Speaker 1: and so I thought it was a good example. The 228 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: other example I spend more time talking about was the 229 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: situation of the white South African farmers. The africaners who 230 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: are facing land expropriation by their government without compensation, and 231 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: the Trump administration you know, recently over the weekend said, 232 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, these people should have an expedited path to 233 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: US citizenship. And when Trump said that, there was some 234 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: pushback from people on the right saying, oh, we shouldn't 235 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: expedite citizenship for anybody, you know, because it cheapens US 236 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: citizenship and it should be the same process for everybody. 237 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: And I thought, that's not right. That's actually not the 238 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: the correct conservative view and the correct view of somebody 239 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: who believes America is a nation and not an idea. 240 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: Because of course, you know, South African farmers, these these 241 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: africaners are descendants of Dutch Calvinists, their ancestors who settled 242 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: in those you know, those lands and being created, you know, 243 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: turned South Africa into the bread basket of a continent. 244 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: As Agriculture Secretary Brook Rawlins said last week, they are 245 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: very close to our founders. Their founders were very close 246 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: to our founders in religion, in culture, in habits customs, 247 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: way of life. It is it would not be as 248 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: hard for a African farmer to come to America come 249 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: truly become culturally an American in the same way that 250 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: it would be difficult for someone like Khalil to become 251 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: an American. There's there's greater number of points of cultural 252 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: contact between the africaner and the American than there is 253 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: between the Syrian Hamas supporter and the American. And that 254 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: may offend some people, but it only offends people if 255 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: they buy into this fatuous notion that America is this 256 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: multicultural utape where every kind of person from all over 257 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: the world just comes here and brings their culture with 258 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: them and they don't assimilate. That is not what our 259 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: founders had in mind. And that's not what we mean 260 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: when we talk about the melting pot of America. It 261 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: means that you assimilate and you shed the identity of 262 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: your home country. And you have done this. I point 263 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: old with me, for just a moment, I'm up against 264 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: to break. 265 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: John Daniel Davidson is his name, Pagan America, the Decline 266 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: of Christianity, and the Dark Age to Come more. 267 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: He just shows me what it's like to be, you know, 268 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: a real man. I have never met someone so wonderful. 269 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: I call him rich. The MARKL. 270 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 2: Berry Dark Age to Come It was published almost exactly 271 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: a year ago. He's been associated with the sort of 272 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: blue chip tier of conservative independent thought in this country, 273 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: from being a senior editor at a Federalist to being 274 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: a contributor at Claremont Institute, which does great work, Wall 275 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: Street Journal, New York Post, a senior fellow at the 276 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: Texas Public Policy Foundation, which is great work. Kevin Roberts 277 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 2: now at Heritage. He's an alum of Hillsdale and of 278 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 2: course the book, and he's now a resident of his home, 279 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 2: his original home state of Alaska after moving back living 280 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 2: in Austin. We were talking about what it means to 281 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: be an American, and we were talking about expediting the 282 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 2: request and the suggestion by President Trump, probably with Elon 283 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 2: Musk and his ear to be honest of the South 284 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 2: African farmers who are being slaughtered by blacks there, who 285 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: are taking their lands and brutally murdering them. That's not 286 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 2: in dispute. And you've got you've got a member of 287 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: parliament there who happens to be black, calling for the 288 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: slaughter of whites there, and it's happening. I mean, it's 289 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 2: very disturbing. It's very disturbing. And Trump suggesting, you know, 290 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: we expedite their status coming here. You were on that subject, 291 00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: if you could pick up from. 292 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: There, Yeah, I was talking about that to answer your 293 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: question about, you know, what is an American and can 294 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: we define it? And you mentioned you know, this is 295 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: like Matt Walsh saying, this is very much a kin 296 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: to what is a woman conversation. The left doesn't want 297 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: to say what an American is, but people on the 298 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: right should be able to say what an American is. 299 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: And it's not just accepting the propositions in the Declaration 300 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: of Independence or accepting something like the rule of law, 301 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: or what the Ramaswami posits. Accepting meritocracy. Right. Much of 302 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: Asia is a meritocracy, right, but it's not America. Being 303 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: an American is far more cultural. It has far more 304 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: to do with your beliefs about the world and the 305 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: way that you live, and your customs and your traditions 306 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: than it does about accepting abstract propositions. And when I 307 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: say that the africaner will have an easier time becoming 308 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: an American than the Hamas supporting Syrian Muslim, what I 309 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: mean partly is that the descendants of Dutch Calvinists who 310 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: grew up in that tradition, are closer culturally religiously in 311 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: terms of their worldview and the way they understand how 312 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: society should be organized than people from the Middle East, 313 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: or people from Asia, or people from Africa, the vast 314 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: majority of the African continent. And that's important. We have 315 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: to be able to talk about that and say, and 316 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: it's connected to the idea you brought up earlier that 317 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: America is a Christian nation. That means people from Christian 318 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 1: cultures and Christian civilizations are going to have an easier 319 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: time becoming an American if they immigrate here then people 320 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: from non Christian cultures and civilizations. And by the way, 321 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: everything that I'm saying is actually what our immigration system 322 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: was based on prior to nineteen sixty five. It reflected 323 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: the realities that we're talking about. 324 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 2: Interesting, I'm reminded of Potter Stewart his inability to define 325 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 2: obscene material and obscenity in the Jacobellas versus Ohio case, 326 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 2: and he famously said, perhaps I could never succeed in 327 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: intelligibly doing so that is defining quote unquote hardcore pornography 328 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: as it was being described there in a particular movie. 329 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 2: Perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so, but 330 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: I know it when I see it, and the motion 331 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,239 Speaker 2: picture involved in this case is not that. 332 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: Well. 333 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: That is a completely arbitrary subjective standard. And I think 334 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 2: intellectual rigor and ideological consistency requires, as you're attempting to 335 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: do here, that we get comfortable defining things, that we 336 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 2: put ourselves out there and state things definitively and stop 337 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 2: being afraid because it will hurt, It will hurt someone's feelings. 338 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: My two sons are from Ethiopia, they're eighteen and nineteen. 339 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 2: My wife is from India, and they are as proud 340 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: American and what I would consider conservative value based America 341 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: as any person who is a white Anglo Saxon Protestant. 342 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: But that's our culture, that's our household, that's how we live. 343 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: They also happen to be Christians, and very proudly so. 344 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 2: And I think that these things are tough conversations that 345 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: conservatives are willfully and shamefully exempting themselves from for fear 346 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: of getting along. And let's now talk about your book, Pagan, 347 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: because I think one of the problems in this country 348 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: is that the problem the death of Christianity or the 349 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 2: reduction in christian whatever term you want to use. Part 350 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: of that is in the church. I see churches that 351 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 2: are afraid to discuss the Bible, are afraid to discuss 352 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: someone's feelings. 353 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: Why did you write the book, Pagan? I wrote the 354 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: book because of trying to really get a handle on 355 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: so many different trends that we unfolding in our culture 356 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: around us. It's no secret that Christianity has been on 357 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: the decline in America for many, many decades, so that 358 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: that's not new. What I was trying to tease out 359 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: in the book is that the de Christianization of America 360 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: is not going to give way to this secular liberal 361 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: utopia where everybody has a kind of christless Christian Christianity, 362 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: or that Christian morality kind of persists without the Christian religion. 363 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: That is not going to happen, And indeed that's not happening. 364 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: You don't put very succinctly. You don't get the culture 365 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,199 Speaker 1: without the cult. And what we're going to see, I 366 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: argue in the book is that as Christianity recedes from 367 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: public life in America, it's going to be replaced by something, 368 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: and that something is not going to be secularism or liberalism, 369 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: which themselves depend on Christianity as the source of their vitality. 370 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: It's going to be what Christianity will be replaced with 371 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: is a different ethos altogether, and that is a pre 372 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: Christian pagan ethos. And part of this argument is that 373 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: there is really only one alternative to Christianity, and that 374 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: is paganism, some form of paganism. Now I don't mean 375 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: that we're going to have temples to Zeus and Apollo 376 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: in Times Square. The paganism of the twenty first century 377 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: will not look like the paganism of the first century, 378 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: but it will be no less pagan for all that. 379 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: And that is something that I think we have not really. 380 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: Wrapped our minds around, and it would think a lot 381 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 3: of pagan even as you use it here we're talking 382 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 3: to John Daniel Davis in his book Is Pagan America 383 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 3: The Decline of Christianity in the Darken Age to Come? 384 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: What does pagan mean as you use. 385 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: It broadly speaking? I guess the simplest way to put 386 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: it is it just means non Christian or anti Christian. 387 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: And really, you know, the pagan ethos is an inversion 388 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: of the Christian Ethos. The pagan world had denied that 389 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: all people were equal before God, that all individuals had 390 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: inherent dignity and worth. That uh, that that that God 391 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: cared you know, for each person, that God was was 392 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: actually omnipotent and transcendent. They posited a world in which 393 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: human beings were by nature not equal, that some were 394 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: slaves and some were masters. Uh. And that slaves had 395 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: no rights, encounted for nothing uh. And that the deities 396 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: that controlled the world were not transcendent and omnipotent. They 397 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: were imminent. They were they were, they were here and now. 398 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: And so therefore what was what was right and true 399 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: depended It was contingent on power dynamics, which is why 400 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: pagan empires. Pagan societies always took the form of slave empires. Eventually, 401 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, across that expansion of times and geography hold up. 402 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: And so that's the John David Danielson is our guest. 403 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: The book is Pagan America, the Decline of Christianity and 404 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: the Dark Age to Come and. 405 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 3: More from the King of Ding and this other guy, 406 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 3: Michael Barry. 407 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: These are the kind of guy you like to smacking ah. 408 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: John John David, John Daniel Davidson is our guest. He's 409 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: written a book called Pagan America, The Decline of Christianity 410 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,239 Speaker 2: in the Dark Age to Come. 411 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: We were talking about that presently. 412 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: We've been talking about what it means to be an 413 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 2: American and could some of these terrorists who come here 414 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: and are protesting for Hamas, could they ever become what 415 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 2: we would consider Americans. And I don't mean what passport 416 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: you carry and show at immigration, but what we consider 417 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: to be truly American. Can you define what is truly 418 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: American in your mind? I don't mean Americana. I don't 419 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 2: mean an open display of patriotism. I don't mean flags 420 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 2: or other symbols. I mean what it means to be 421 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: an American. Who is and isn't an American? Are you 422 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 2: comfortable saying that someone who carries an American passport is 423 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,239 Speaker 2: not what we would consider American. I think these are 424 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,719 Speaker 2: important conversations to have, particularly at a time where we 425 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: see protests in favor of Hamas on our streets, where 426 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: we see Black Lives Matter calling for such aggressive and 427 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: violent actions, where we see. 428 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: Well, where we see what we see. 429 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 2: John Daniel Davidson, as our guest, I interrupted you and 430 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: I can't actually. 431 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: Recall where you were. 432 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: I was asking you to explain paganism, and I'm not 433 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 2: sure if you were finished there. But when you talk 434 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: about paganism rivaling Christianity and really being the only alternative 435 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: to Christianity, do you see paganism as being theistic or 436 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 2: untheistic or atheistic? 437 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I see it as being theistic, but not in 438 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: a Christian way. And part of what's happening in our 439 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: society is that as Christianity declines in the West, we 440 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: are all so seeing the kind of scientific materialist worldview 441 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: that was derived ironically from Christendom, from Western civilization that 442 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: came out of the Enlightenment. We're seeing that decline too. 443 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: And there's a re enchantment afoot in the West, but 444 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: it's a re enchantment that's happening in the context of 445 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: de Christianization. So people are increasingly identifying themselves as not religious, right, 446 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: but spiritual. And we've all heard that for years, but 447 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: the number of people who say that about themselves is 448 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: increasing exponentially. Now, why in a scientific materialist modern world, 449 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 1: with so many people confess themselves to be spiritual, why 450 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: would witchcraft and astrology be exploding on social media and 451 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: witchcraft influencers have such purchase actually with young people at 452 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: a time when church attendance is in decline. And I 453 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 1: think that's because the future, as I said, is not 454 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: this secular, materialist, liberal utopia. The future is a neo 455 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: pagan form of religious belief that is coming into the 456 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: vacuum created by the retreat of Christianity. And we see 457 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: this in all different ways. And that's part of what 458 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: the book is about, is trying to describe and point 459 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: out for people what it means that we see this 460 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: return to a spiritual yearning in the West even as 461 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: Christianity is declining. 462 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 2: John Daniel Davidson is our guest. You can learn more 463 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 2: about his thoughts on this particular subject in his book 464 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: Pagan America. I've got about three minutes left and I 465 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: wanted to get to something that's very important to me. 466 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 2: Sean Davis, your peer and friend at a Federalist, posted 467 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: something earlier today. 468 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: A few days ago. 469 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 2: He said, are we allowed to notice the mass slaughter 470 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 2: of Christians which seems to follow every single neo con 471 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 2: foray into regime change in the Middle East over the 472 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 2: last three decades? And I added to that moderate Muslim 473 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: and I think even arguably secular quote unquote Muslim regimes 474 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: that neocons in this country have toppled have ended. 475 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: Up the worst for it. 476 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: You look at Mubarak in Egypt, you look at Kadafi 477 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: in Libya, and now you look at Asad, who we 478 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: were told was the worst person in the history of mankind, 479 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 2: and not Bashra. I saw was not a nice guy. 480 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: But now the replacement is very radical, very violent Islamists 481 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 2: who are killing the Christian community of Syria. And this 482 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: has been consistent again and again. I'll just open the 483 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 2: floor to your thoughts. I have about three minutes. You 484 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: can close the show for us. 485 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, part of this is our disastrous reading of the 486 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: causes of nine o of them. After nine to eleven, 487 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: we were told over and over by the corporate media 488 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: and by the Bush administration that this was not a 489 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: religious war, this was not a clash of civilizations. Islam 490 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: is a religion of peace. President Bush stood in front 491 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: of microphones and repeated this ridiculous idea over and over again, 492 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: surrounded by religious leaders, Islamic leaders who largely agreed with 493 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 1: the worldview and politics and theology of the people who 494 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: perpetrated the nine to eleven attacks, and our refusal and 495 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: failure to see nine to eleven for the religious act 496 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: and the religious conflict that it really was has been 497 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: the source of a lot of misery in the world 498 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: because we went to Iraq and Afghanistan, we intervened in 499 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: countless other Middle Eastern Islamic countries with this understanding that 500 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: democracy is this universal idea, is this notion of America 501 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: is an idea again, And if America is an idea, 502 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: then you can export that idea to any culture and 503 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: any religious group in the world, and they can adopt it, 504 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: and then they'll be peaceful, and they'll be our neighbors 505 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: and our friends and our allies. And it absolutely is 506 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: just a false claim. It's not true, and it didn't 507 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: work out that way in Iraq, it didn't work out 508 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: that way in Afghanistan, or in any other countries where 509 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: this neo kan ideology has been tried, because it's simply 510 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: not true. What Bush and others neocons said at the 511 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: time that all human beings yearn for freedom, Well it's 512 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: not true. Some human beings yearn for justice more than 513 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: they yearn for freedom. 514 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 2: Beautifully said in short on time. I mean, you got 515 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 2: right to the point that is absolutely beautifully said. 516 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: There's so many things I want to get to, but 517 00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm up against our clock. 518 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 2: Just say that you're invited back anytime you would like 519 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: to come back. You are a wonderful guest, particularly in 520 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: a long form format, to really explore some things that 521 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 2: I think make people uncomfortable. And I think it's a 522 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: good idea to challenge yourself to improve your intellectual rigor 523 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: by hearing people who are unashamed fearless in stating their positions. 524 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 2: Thank you, John Daniel Davidson, Thanks so much for having 525 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 2: me and the book again, folks. Is the decline of 526 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: Christianity and the dark Age to come? Is there someone 527 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: that you follow in social media or you've seen in 528 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: public life that you find to state things that are interesting? 529 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 2: For whatever reason, I don't have to agree with every 530 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: guest's opinion, So if there's someone who says things that 531 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: you think are diametrically opposed to what I believe or 532 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: what you believe, but presents their case, well, feel free 533 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: to send me an email through the website Michael Berryshow 534 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 2: dot com and tell me why you think I should 535 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 2: talk to that person and what they bring to the conversation. 536 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: We are given a very very powerful instrument in our 537 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: hands that Ramon Roeblists and Jim Mudd and Chad Nakanishi 538 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: and our entire team and Daryl Kunda all have, and 539 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: that is the opportunity to talk to you, free to 540 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 2: you in a broadcast medium, weekdays, every day. And I 541 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 2: don't believe that what we do on the show should 542 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: be defined by what has been done before, although much 543 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: of our show is informed. 544 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: By a lot of what Russell Limbaugh did. That's why 545 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: we very rarely take calls. 546 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 2: But I also think it's a great opportunity to explore 547 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: in a more academic sense things that we find to 548 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 2: be interesting. 549 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: In that Tucker Carlson way as well. 550 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 2: We're up against the clock. I've enjoyed our time together. 551 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 2: Fee free to email me directly your thoughts on this 552 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: or anything else we do on the show Michael Berryshow 553 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: dot com. 554 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: You can do it directly through there. Hey, exilment, Elvis 555 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: has us left for Bill. Thank you, and goodnight.