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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: This book is about second shots and second chances. Never

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Speaker 2: give up in life.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. In nineteen seventy one, James

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Speaker 1: Tappenhall was gunned down in Maryland as the deputy sheriff

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Speaker 1: patrolled the grounds of a country club. The police searched

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Speaker 1: for suspects, which included a gang of teens known for

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Speaker 1: breaking into Coca Cola machines, but the case went cold

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Speaker 1: for half a century until it finally broke But did

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Speaker 1: they catch the real killer? Author Michael Weisberg tells me

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Speaker 1: the story from his book A Second Shot, The Pursuit

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Speaker 1: of Justice in Maryland's oldest cold case murder. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've had people bring me cases before about their relatives.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of weight on the writer, I think,

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Speaker 1: because you're telling a very very personal story that you're

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Speaker 1: invested in but for a finite amount of time, and

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Speaker 1: you know you care very much about these people, or

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Speaker 1: you grow to care about them. But in Carolyn's case,

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Speaker 1: this is, you know, a a massive part of her life.

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Speaker 1: So was it difficult for you to wrap your head

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Speaker 1: around that. Were you intimidated in any way? Because I

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Speaker 1: get intimidated by stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: I think I was intimidated by it. Just what you're

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Speaker 2: saying is true. But I also found tremendous support from

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Speaker 2: Carolyn and her husband and their daughter Carrie that they

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Speaker 2: wanted this to be done and anything that they could

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Speaker 2: do to help me. They were there and they wanted

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Speaker 2: to give me all the information that I needed. They

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Speaker 2: wanted to have their family cooperate, They wanted to have

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Speaker 2: anybody that had anything to do with it. Ow Sweat,

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Speaker 2: who was the original investigator on the story fifty two

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Speaker 2: years ago, in the case fifty two years before anybody

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Speaker 2: who had anything to do with it. They wanted them

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Speaker 2: to help me, and I felt that, although it was

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Speaker 2: something I'd never done before, that initially I got into

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Speaker 2: it thinking it was going to be open and shut

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Speaker 2: as I talked about it in the book, But even

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Speaker 2: as I got further into it and realized that it

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Speaker 2: was going to take a while and take several years

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Speaker 2: to go through and write, I felt like with the

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Speaker 2: fa family behind me, I felt more support than I

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Speaker 2: did intimidation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's great. Well, where should we start with this story?

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Speaker 1: Do we want to get into James Tappenhall's background? How

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Speaker 1: far back do we want to go?

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's just start with the fact that here's

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Speaker 2: a man who was married and had two children and

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Speaker 2: doing anything he could to earn a living for the children.

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Speaker 2: They'd originally had a home in Silver Spring, Maryland that

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Speaker 2: they'd been kicked out of because they couldn't pay the bills,

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Speaker 2: So he obviously he'd grown up extremely poor. He had

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Speaker 2: a fifth grade education, and he never wanted something like

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Speaker 2: that to ever happen again to his family. So he

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Speaker 2: had a job where he worked on transmissions for buses.

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Speaker 2: That's for his job. He learned how to do it

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Speaker 2: and he was excellent. He became the union steward for

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Speaker 2: his company and he was very good at doing that.

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Speaker 2: But he also was always looking for other ways to

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Speaker 2: make money. For example, he bought a store that had

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Speaker 2: ice creaming made ice cream, and he would spend hours

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Speaker 2: when he wasn't working on the transmissions in that store

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Speaker 2: making the ice cream for sale that was called Shirley's

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Speaker 2: ice Cream. He decided to work also at the amusement

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Speaker 2: park that was near where they lived, and his job

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Speaker 2: was to put people into the roller coaster and make

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Speaker 2: sure that their seats were secure and that the things

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Speaker 2: were over them so that they couldn't fall out of

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Speaker 2: the roller coaster. They needed more security at this amusement park,

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Speaker 2: and so they told him, Okay, we're going to make

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Speaker 2: you security, but you're going to be a deputy sheriff.

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Speaker 2: And so that's how he became a deputy sheriff. There

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Speaker 2: was no training, no tests to take, nothing. He had

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Speaker 2: a little bit of background who's in the military short time,

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Speaker 2: but then was discharged because they had flat feet. So

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Speaker 2: here he is now a deputy sheriff and also as

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Speaker 2: part of the deputy sheriff's duties, they were security guards

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Speaker 2: at the Manor Country Club. This was a beautiful country

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Speaker 2: club in Rockville, Maryland, and they had a lot of

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Speaker 2: breakings and burglaries in that area. They thought mainly commuted

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Speaker 2: by teenagers who lived there. They're breaking into the coke

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Speaker 2: machines of breaking into the houses, and so they felt

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Speaker 2: like they needed a security guard to work there. So JT.

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Speaker 2: Hall was on the regular shift of working security. On

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Speaker 2: the night of October twenty third, nineteen seventy one, he

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Speaker 2: wasn't supposed to work, his family was over. The ship

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Speaker 2: started at seven o'clock pm. He got a call at

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Speaker 2: six thirty pm and it was a rainy, dark night,

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Speaker 2: just terrible rainstorm. A man who was supposed to work,

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Speaker 2: Jim Young, said he had a family matter come up

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Speaker 2: and couldn't work and could JT work for him. JT

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Speaker 2: said sure, He's always willing to do things to make

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Speaker 2: extra money to provide for his family, and so he

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Speaker 2: drove to the country club and that started to shift

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Speaker 2: at seven o'clock.

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Speaker 1: How many years had JT been a deputy sheriff in

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Speaker 1: Maryland before what happens happens.

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Speaker 2: He'd been a deputy sheriff for approximately five years before

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Speaker 2: this had happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, we know that he is, you know, somebody who's

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Speaker 1: committed to getting security for his family and he's doing

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Speaker 1: everything he possibly can. What do you think about him

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Speaker 1: as a personality, as a person, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what does Carolyn say about what her dad was like

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Speaker 1: as far as.

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Speaker 2: His work approach and things like that. He was very

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Speaker 2: hard working, always dill legent about doing his job, whatever

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Speaker 2: type of work he was involved with. But he was

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Speaker 2: a very loving family man. He loved to spend time

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Speaker 2: with his children and his grandchildren. He would do anything

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Speaker 2: he could for them, and he would go out of

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Speaker 2: his way. Like Carolyn related the story when she was

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Speaker 2: six years old, her father took her. They were out

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Speaker 2: and her father took her out on the dance floor

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Speaker 2: to dance, and she said, I don't know how to dance,

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Speaker 2: and he just put her feet on top of his

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Speaker 2: and moved her around to dance floor. And that's something

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Speaker 2: that almost seventy five years later, she still remembered. Well.

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Speaker 2: She also remembered how much he used to love to

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Speaker 2: play croquet and other games with the kids, and how

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Speaker 2: he hated to have his son beat him so that

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Speaker 2: he would a cheat it croquet by kicking his ball along.

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Speaker 2: He was a devoted man. He only drank alcohol when

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Speaker 2: they would go out to go dancing and things like that.

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Speaker 2: He was not a religious man in the formal sense,

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Speaker 2: but he was certainly a god fearing man in the

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Speaker 2: sense that he treated other people the way he would

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Speaker 2: want to be treated.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the area a little bit more. Montgomery

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Speaker 1: County in general in nineteen seventy one put us in

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Speaker 1: time also with the United States. You know, what is

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Speaker 1: the general feeling we have about America in this time,

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Speaker 1: and then about this area as far as crime or

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Speaker 1: politics or anything like that. So we know what we're

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Speaker 1: dealing with here.

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Speaker 2: This area is about thirty minutes outside of Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: It's a very democratic voting areas, but in that time too,

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Speaker 2: about seventy seventy five percent in presidential elections. Just to

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Speaker 2: give you an idea near that area. And Prince George

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Speaker 2: Maryland is where George Wallace was shot when he was

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Speaker 2: running for president. And as a matter of fact, Frank Hall,

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Speaker 2: who was the nephew of JT. Hall, served after he

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Speaker 2: was shot in the hospital. He was in charge of

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Speaker 2: security for George Wallace's wife, So that's in the area.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot going on in the area, a

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Speaker 2: lot of racial things in the sixties and seventies. The

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Speaker 2: amusement park that I talked about where JT. Hawd worked,

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Speaker 2: was burned down in a riot at that time. So

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of things going on as far

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Speaker 2: as politically in that the Rockville and that whole area

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Speaker 2: at all. At the time. JT and his family weren't

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Speaker 2: involved in politics. His brother was the fire chief for

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Speaker 2: the area for Montgomery County, and JT, as I said,

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Speaker 2: was just worked as a deputy sheriffs. But mainly what

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Speaker 2: it was was more of a just a glorified security guard,

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Speaker 2: both at the amusement park and at the Manor Country Club.

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Speaker 2: The Montgomery County is one of the wealthiest counties in Maryland.

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Speaker 2: It's now the largest, its largest county. It's now become

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Speaker 2: a tech quarter. It wasn't, of course at that time.

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Speaker 2: When I think about that time and look back into

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Speaker 2: the seventies, I see a lot of youth unrest in

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Speaker 2: that area. I see a lot of the teenagers getting together,

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Speaker 2: and there are places churches that had their churches open

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Speaker 2: just to keep the kids off the streets, not realizing

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Speaker 2: that what they were doing in a lot of cases

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Speaker 2: was allowing these young men to get together, get to

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Speaker 2: know each other, in form gangs, to perform mischief, robberies,

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Speaker 2: and things like that. So I think that there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of unrest, a lot of the teenagers were

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Speaker 2: out and about on the town. I think it was

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Speaker 2: an environment that was ripe for having things like burglary

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Speaker 2: and other types of criminal activities occur.

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Speaker 1: So on this night in nineteen seventy one, Jim Young says,

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Speaker 1: can you take over this shift for me? And you

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Speaker 1: said it was a rainy night, dark night, and now

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Speaker 1: let's pick it up from there. What ends up happening?

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Speaker 2: So he goes to the country club and there's always

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Speaker 2: on Saturday nights, high stake poker games going on. That

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Speaker 2: was another reason to have security there. So he would

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Speaker 2: make his way around the parking lot where he parked

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Speaker 2: his car, and then go in and out into the

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Speaker 2: country club itself and check out and make sure that

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Speaker 2: everything was okay there. He used his flashlight because it

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Speaker 2: was so dark, and he would make multiple trips around

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Speaker 2: the parking lot, which was large to make sure that

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Speaker 2: everything was okay. The parking lot on one end about

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Speaker 2: the country club itself, and then on one side was

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Speaker 2: the golf course, so you could see from the parking

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Speaker 2: lot into the golf course. And on the golf course

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Speaker 2: were a lot of huge trees, and then on all

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Speaker 2: around the golf course were built these mansions that people

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Speaker 2: had built with large windows looking out on the golf course.

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Speaker 2: He does his shift. He's about four and a half

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Speaker 2: hours into it, and one of the things he'd loved

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Speaker 2: to do while he was in his car loaning away

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Speaker 2: from the house was smoke his pipe. He would smoke

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Speaker 2: his pipe intermittently. He had just gotten his pipe out

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Speaker 2: at ten thirty and all of a sudden, out of

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Speaker 2: the corner of his eye, he sees something going on

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Speaker 2: in the area of the golf course. Some things moved.

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Speaker 2: So he gets out of his car and starts walking

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Speaker 2: over there. It's pouring rain, it's dark, there's almost no

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Speaker 2: lighting out in the parking lot. He uses his flashlight

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Speaker 2: and sees something move and says, what's going on there?

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Speaker 2: What are you doing? Flashes this flashlight and he's able

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Speaker 2: to see that in the area between the country club

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Speaker 2: and the parking lot, there's built up almost a pyramid

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Speaker 2: of household items, things like step stools and jack lanterns

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Speaker 2: and sheets and all these things are just in a

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Speaker 2: big pyramid, big piles right there. And the next thing

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Speaker 2: you hear a gun shot, and he's holding his flashlight

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Speaker 2: and the shot hits the flashlight and knocks it out

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Speaker 2: of his hand. Everything goes dark. He realizes that he's

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Speaker 2: being shot at, so he turns around to get out

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Speaker 2: of the way and reaches for his gun. Unfortunately, he

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Speaker 2: reached got his pipe out, and at the same moment

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Speaker 2: that he got his pipe out, he was shot in

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Speaker 2: the back of his head. It was one shot that

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Speaker 2: entered in the lower left hand inside of his head

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Speaker 2: and lodged behind his right eye. He fell to the ground,

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Speaker 2: the pipe went skittering away, ended up near a drain

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Speaker 2: pipe here where he was lying, and he was left

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Speaker 2: there to die. He was found by a couple who

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Speaker 2: had been out on a date, Robert Tristgrad and his girlfriend,

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Speaker 2: and they were walking by and they saw him, probably

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Speaker 2: within about five to ten minutes of it taking place,

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Speaker 2: and they went into the country club and had the

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Speaker 2: receptionists there call the police and called for an ambulance.

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Speaker 2: A few minutes later, a group of boys drove into

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Speaker 2: the parking lot. These boys, who are now known as

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Speaker 2: the Coke Machine Gang, at the same time as all

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Speaker 2: this was going on, had been attempting to break into

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Speaker 2: the coke machines on the Manor Country Club to steal

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Speaker 2: the quarters from the coke machines. They saw what looked

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Speaker 2: like a big bag of garbage in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the parking lot, but stopped there. They'd come back to

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Speaker 2: the parking lot. They had left because they'd heard sirens,

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Speaker 2: which had turned out to be were fire engines going elsewhere.

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Speaker 2: Then they'd come back because they realized that they'd left

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Speaker 2: one of the tools that they'd used to break into

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Speaker 2: the coke machines on the Coke Machines. So they came

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Speaker 2: back and saw this big piece of garbage bag in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the parking lot, got out and realized

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Speaker 2: that it was a Deputy Sheriff JT. Hall. One of them,

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Speaker 2: Robert Canavery, turned his head to the side so he

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Speaker 2: could breathe, and the rest went in and also contacted

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Speaker 2: the receptionist, and they waited until the ambulance came to

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Speaker 2: take him to the hospital. He was still breathing but unresponsive.

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Speaker 1: Nice gang of petty criminals. I guess, well, that's risky

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Speaker 1: for them.

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Speaker 2: These were boys fifteen to sixteen years old, the leader

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Speaker 2: of whom his father was a police officer. His name

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Speaker 2: was Shoemaker. He had been in trouble with the law

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Speaker 2: multiple times, and he was actually his father had told

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Speaker 2: him afterwards not to talk to the police, and as

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Speaker 2: it turns out, he turned out to be the suspect

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Speaker 2: that the detectives initially centered on and felt for years

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Speaker 2: that he was the one who had shot the deputy sheriff.

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Speaker 2: The Coke Machine boys had been driving around. The Coke

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Speaker 2: Machine gang had been driving around that night smoking marijuana,

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Speaker 2: and previously they'd gone into a laundry place where there

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Speaker 2: was laundry machines and they'd broken into those installed the

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Speaker 2: quarters from those. Norman Shoemaker was their leader, and he

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Speaker 2: drove them over. He was sixteen, so he drove the car.

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Speaker 2: He drove them over to the country club and then,

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Speaker 2: like I said, they saw the deputy sheriff lying there

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Speaker 2: and they called in and one of them, Robert Cannaveri,

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Speaker 2: stayed behind to help him breathe.

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Speaker 1: Now, remind me who is the son of the cop?

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Speaker 1: Which one of those boys, the.

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Speaker 2: Son of the cop is Norman Shoemaker. Okay, he'd been

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Speaker 2: involved in other activities, criminal activities in the past, but

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Speaker 2: the law states said, you cannot interview a juvenile unless

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Speaker 2: they're caught in the act of committing a crime or

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Speaker 2: their parent gives consent. And his father would never give consent.

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Speaker 2: So he had a very bad reputation among law enforcement

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Speaker 2: in Montgomery County. And with this episode, he was initially interviewed,

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Speaker 2: but when his father found out what was going on,

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Speaker 2: he refused to be interviewed anymore, and so he became

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Speaker 2: the prime suspect.

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Speaker 1: So you know, at this moment, you've got the Coke

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Speaker 1: Machine Gang who were waiting for the ambulance, and you've

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Speaker 1: got JT. Who is still alive and Robert turned his

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Speaker 1: head so he could breathe. What else does the Coke

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Speaker 1: Machine gang say about this situation, I mean from their

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Speaker 1: point of view?

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Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, after JT. Hall was taken to the hospital

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Speaker 2: and then had to be intubated right away because he

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Speaker 2: had agonal respirations and he had a neuros urgent come

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Speaker 2: in to see him, examined him, looked at the X

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Speaker 2: rays that had been dying, told Robert Filo in Melvin

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Speaker 2: Hall that there was no hope for him. After he died.

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Speaker 2: On the twenty six, they went back and reinterviewed the

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Speaker 2: Coke Machine Boys and the only one who admitted to

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Speaker 2: breaking into the Coke machines was Robert Cannavery and he's

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Speaker 2: actually the only one that served time in jail for that.

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Speaker 2: The rest of them went off scott free. They never

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Speaker 2: admitted that they had been there doing that also, so

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Speaker 2: Robert Cannavery was put in jail. Shoemaker refused to talk

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Speaker 2: any further to the police officers, and the rest of

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Speaker 2: the Coke Machine Boys alibied each other out so that

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Speaker 2: the police interviewed them multiple times but did not feel

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Speaker 2: that they were involved with the murder.

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Speaker 1: So Robert Cannavery was he in jail for the break

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Speaker 1: in of the Coke Machine correct?

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Speaker 2: Okay, it's a short period of time for you know,

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Speaker 2: trespassing and for vandalism. But he's the only one that

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Speaker 2: had anything come from that episode.

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Speaker 1: I know you're not a neurosurgeon, but I'm just curious.

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Speaker 1: Did you read through the notes from the neurosurgeon who

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Speaker 1: looked at JT. I mean, could he have been saved today?

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Speaker 1: I always wonder about stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: I think that today there's much more advanced technology to

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Speaker 2: determine exactly what's going on, including MRIs machines, CT scans.

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Speaker 2: When they said an X ray was done, then it

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Speaker 2: was probably just a plain the brain of the head

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Speaker 2: skull that showed where the bullet had gone. He probably

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Speaker 2: had an exam. You know, I can't tell you for sure,

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Speaker 2: because no, I did not have the notes. I actually

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Speaker 2: went to the hospital now the Montgomery General Hospital. Now

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Speaker 2: it's another iteration from the hospital then that was in

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Speaker 2: Actually it's two iterations. There was another hospital that took

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Speaker 2: its place in the early two thousands, and now there's

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Speaker 2: another hospital, much newer, that's been there for about the

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Speaker 2: last seven years. And I went there and I called

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Speaker 2: the medical records department and I explained to them what

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Speaker 2: I wanted, because no one I first tried to get

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Speaker 2: into medical records, no one will let me in. Finally

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Speaker 2: got the number there, and the man who answered listened

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Speaker 2: to me talking what I wanted, and he says, we

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Speaker 2: don't know anything about that, and don't you ever call

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Speaker 2: this line again? Black click? So I did not have

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Speaker 2: any records to look at. You know, there are certain

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Speaker 2: things that when you look at certain like for instance,

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Speaker 2: someone has a blown pupil, you know, midline shift in

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Speaker 2: the brain. There's certain things that you can look at

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Speaker 2: just on exam to tell whether or not someone's gonna

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Speaker 2: make it or not if they've already had herdiation of

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Speaker 2: the brain. I don't know what was done at that time,

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Speaker 2: but you do wonder if something like that happened now

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Speaker 2: with what we have now. For example, my hospital that

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Speaker 2: I work in is a Level one trauma center and

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Speaker 2: we have ninety two neuro intensive carrying of beds. We're

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Speaker 2: the largest one in the country. This is in Plano, Texas,

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Speaker 2: and they have twenty four hour on site neurosurgeons as

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Speaker 2: well as neurological radiologists, and they specialize in things like

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Speaker 2: this and taking care of patients like this, and they're

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Speaker 2: brought from a two hundred mile radius to our hospital

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Speaker 2: to take care of So with modern technology, I wonder

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Speaker 2: if he could have been saved, if something could have

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Speaker 2: been done.

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Speaker 1: So is he declared brain dead or how does his

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Speaker 1: life actually end?

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Speaker 2: At the hospital, he's declared brain dead. He's on the

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Speaker 2: ventilator for three days, and then they basically say there's

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Speaker 2: no hope. So Melvin Hall, who's his son, who's also

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Speaker 2: a police officer and later works for the CIA, and

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Speaker 2: actually the night that his dad was shot, Melvin was

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Speaker 2: the chief officer for the CIA headquarters at that time.

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Speaker 2: He actually worked at the White House under five different presidents. Also,

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Speaker 2: this is JT's son. Don't forget. JT only had a

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Speaker 2: fifth grade education and his son went on to get

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Speaker 2: his college education and work for the policeman and then

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Speaker 2: for the CIA. But Melvin Hall and Robert Filo, the

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Speaker 2: son in law, popped the doctor and came in and

375
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Speaker 2: said there's no hope. The doctor suggest we take them

376
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Speaker 2: off the bed. Later they did so, and thirty minutes

377
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Speaker 2: later he stopped breathing and was dead.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about I don't know

379
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Speaker 1: much about his wife. I won't even ask what her

380
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Speaker 1: reaction was. I know what her reaction was. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: it was just devastating for her. But did you get

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Speaker 1: a sense from Carolyn what the stages of grief were,

383
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Speaker 1: because I know they can be very different from when

384
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Speaker 1: you've lost somebody in a violent way to an unknown assailant.

385
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Speaker 1: What was it like for this family?

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Speaker 2: I think that for Anna, they had been married for

387
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Speaker 2: about thirty three thirty four years, and who was worked

388
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Speaker 2: for the NIH Nationalis Suits of Health as a technician

389
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Speaker 2: and was educated, very smart woman. I think that she

390
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Speaker 2: never got beyond the stage of anger because she couldn't

391
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Speaker 2: understand why Moore wasn't done to find out who killed

392
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Speaker 2: her husband. There was one incident in nineteen seventy eight,

393
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Speaker 2: proxibly years after the murder where since the very beginning

394
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Speaker 2: of the Filo family, instead of taking any money or

395
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Speaker 2: any contributions for flowers and things like that, they'd ask

396
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Speaker 2: people to just donate to a fund to try to

397
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Speaker 2: find the killer. They raised one thousand dollars by doing that,

398
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Speaker 2: and it was matched by a thousand dollars raised by

399
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Speaker 2: the man Or Country Club two thousand dollars. They asked

400
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Speaker 2: the chief of police at that time to advertise that

401
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 2: there was a reward being offered, but it was never done,

402
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 2: It was never publicized, it was never done, and about

403
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 2: two or three weeks later, two dogs were found poisoned

404
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 2: and murdered in the Potomac River, and the Police of

405
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Speaker 2: Chief said okay, and there was a fifty dollars reward

406
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Speaker 2: being offered, and that was widely publicized. So nineteen seventy

407
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 2: eight there was a really incredible newspaper front page article

408
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 2: in the Montgomery County paper where they interviewed Robert Filo.

409
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Speaker 2: He basically said how he was now an attorney and

410
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Speaker 2: one of the things that had really upset him about

411
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,360
Speaker 2: police war about what had happened was that they valued dogs'

412
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Speaker 2: lives over human life. Anna had tremendous anger towards what

413
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,159
Speaker 2: had happened. I will say that later in life that

414
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 2: she did later remarry, and then when he died, she

415
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Speaker 2: moved to Texas to be with Carolyn and Bob living

416
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Speaker 2: with them. She was always a big baseball fan. She

417
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 2: became a Texas Rangers fan, and she fell in love

418
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Speaker 2: with Pud Rodriguez, the catcher for the Rangers, and had

419
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Speaker 2: a life sized poster of him and the closet the

420
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Speaker 2: door to her closet. So I think she resigned herself somewhat,

421
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Speaker 2: but I think when it came to her husband to

422
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Speaker 2: j T, she never got over the anger what had happened.

423
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Speaker 1: What is the explanation for the lack of action from

424
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Speaker 1: Montgomery County. Is it because he was just some low

425
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Speaker 1: level you had said, you know, a security guard, not

426
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Speaker 1: really what we would think of as a deputy sheriff.

427
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Speaker 1: What do you think happened.

428
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Speaker 2: I don't think that's what it was. No. I think

429
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Speaker 2: that a couple of things happened. First of all, I

430
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Speaker 2: think that they assigned the case to their top detective.

431
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Speaker 2: His name was O. W. Sweat. I actually interviewed him.

432
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Speaker 2: Of course, this is fifty some years after the crime,

433
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Speaker 2: and he really was a lot of confused about a

434
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Speaker 2: lot of details that came out. But talking to him,

435
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: he had handled between forty and fifty murder cases in

436
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 2: his career. He was a go to guy, and this

437
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 2: was the only one that he didn't. What they call

438
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: clothes close means that you have a resolution, and it

439
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: bothered him tremendously because he worked in the same station

440
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: as Robert Filo, Bob Filo, the son in law, and

441
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: he felt that if any case could have been he

442
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: wanted to close. He did everything he could to get

443
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 2: this one closed. Now, I think that having said that,

444
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: I think he made the mistake of what we call

445
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 2: tunnel vision. It has referred to in my book in

446
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,479
Speaker 2: a couple instances, but basically, I let one of the

447
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: nephews of JT. Hall, Frank Hall Junior, whose father was

448
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: a fire chief. He basically talks about policemen will find

449
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,239
Speaker 2: one suspect that they think has got to be the

450
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 2: one who did it, though narrow they're focus on that

451
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 2: one suspect and kind of exclude the other things that

452
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: are going on. In this case, the suspect was Norman Shoemaker,

453
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: the young man who was there that night, who was

454
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: driving the car, and who the police felt was just

455
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: a bad apple, And so I think he focused on

456
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 2: him to the exclusion of other people. When I talked

457
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,479
Speaker 2: to him, he said he interviewed over one hundred people

458
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: involved living in the area, this and that, But I

459
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: think that he never got beyond that initial impression, and

460
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: there was never any physical evidence because of the rain

461
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: and things like that. And also at that time they

462
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 2: closed off the area where the murder occurred, but they

463
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: really didn't most of the collecting of evidence till the

464
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 2: next day. The next morning, so a lot of the

465
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: things had washed away. I mean, they found the pipe,

466
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 2: they found the bullet, that had gone through the flashlight flashlight,

467
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 2: but they didn't really start to collection until the next day.

468
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: They did an aerial view of the whole area the

469
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: next day with the plane flying over taking pictures that

470
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 2: they showed at the trial. But I think the fact

471
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: that there was absolutely no physical evidence, no eyewitnesses, which

472
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: it kind of blows your mind. You think about this

473
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 2: a busy country club, all these poker games going on,

474
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 2: boys breaking into the soda machines, and no one hears

475
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 2: or sees anything, no eyewitnesses, no physical evidence. And then

476
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: even later when DNA evidence came, which is the main

477
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: way that cold cases are solved now is with DNA evidence,

478
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 2: there was absolutely no DNA evidence to look at. So

479
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 2: I think that the same thing that we have in

480
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 2: medicine tunnel vision, where you initially you get called by

481
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: the emergency room. We've got one lab abnormal. This is

482
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 2: what the patient has, ay pancread titis, and you, as

483
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 2: a physician go in and treat them for pancreaditis, when

484
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: actually when you talk to them and find out more

485
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: about them, they're complaining of this incredible headache and it

486
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: turns out they're having a bleed into their brain. That

487
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: all they had was just one abnormal blood tests. So

488
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: what I'm saying to you is that it happens in

489
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: all different fields. Yeah, you can't just center in on

490
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: one diagnosis on one suspect, and I think that's what

491
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: happened here.

492
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the evidence again. Now you had

493
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: said that JT would have seen. Was it like a

494
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: pile of stuff? You said it was Halloween decorations? Was

495
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: that part of a theft? Is that what the suspect

496
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: was doing?

497
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: We think yes.

498
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,239
Speaker 1: Did they find out where those were stolen from? I mean,

499
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: were they able to go into the house.

500
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I actually spent the day with that couple.

501
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: Roger and Diane Schmidt had just moved into a house

502
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: on Manor Country Club one month before the murder took place.

503
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: That day, they'd gone to the mountains. They had a

504
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 2: newborn daughter, and when they came back, they realized their

505
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: garage open. It didn't work, but she'd left the window

506
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: to the second floor of her daughter's bedroom open because

507
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: she'd painted it that day. So she borrowed the lighters.

508
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: Dark now after ten o'clock at night, and she borrowed

509
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: a lighter from a neighbor and climbed in through the

510
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 2: second floor window and found that the entire house had

511
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: been ransacked. Drawers opened things on the floor, so they

512
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 2: realized that their house had been broken into, and they

513
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: called the police department immediately, and this was approximately ten

514
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 2: forty for about five to ten minutes after the murder

515
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: had taken place, and the Montgomery County Police Department said,

516
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: we'd love to come out there, but we can't do

517
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 2: it now. We've got a murder going on. We've got

518
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: someone that was shot, and we've got to go take

519
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 2: care of that first. So maybe a while within five minutes,

520
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: five patrol cars showed up in their driveway. Because they

521
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: realized there could be a connection between what was found

522
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: all these items and stuff, they took the Schmid's in

523
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 2: one of the patrol cars over to where the golf

524
00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 2: course met the parking lot, and all the eye that

525
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: were found there this huge pile were from their house.

526
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: Missing was her wedding ring, which was never recovered. Her

527
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: engagement ring was never recovered. However, they did recover most

528
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: of their other things, including their Stirling silver and as

529
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: I said, Jack, a ceramic jack lantern which they still

530
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: have in which they showed me when I spent time

531
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: with them, the steps to which they still have a

532
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: break in had occurred that same night. They were moving

533
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: the different things from the break in across the golf

534
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: course which was dark a tree covered to an area

535
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 2: where a parking lot was where they had a car

536
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: parked so they could put in the car and take

537
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: it away. And appears as though Sheriff Hall w Sheriff

538
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 2: Hall came upon this at the wrong time.

539
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: So at the moment you know JT has died, you

540
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: have the you know ow Sweat, that's his name, right, correct.

541
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: O W.

542
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: Sweat was lieutenant. The man in charge of the crime

543
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: scene was named Jerry Boone, but O. W. Sweat was

544
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: the one who was at a to who was given to.

545
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: So Sweat is on the case. And I know Jerry

546
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: Boone also. And they think that Norman Shoemaker, because he's

547
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: a bad seed essentially and was there of course, should

548
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: be their main suspect. Tell me how the investigation goes

549
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: until it stops going, because it does at some point.

550
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like it was actually worked for at

551
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: least six months. But another thing that happens in police

552
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: work is that these police officers get promoted, to get

553
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: moved to different places, things like that. And that's another

554
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 2: definition of a cold case is when the case is

555
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: no longer being worked by the people that are familiar

556
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: with it and that know what's going on. And so

557
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: within the next two years he was moved to a

558
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: different position, and so he was no longer working that case.

559
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: Other people that were working the case really couldn't find

560
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: anything out. Again, interviews talking, they have this burglary, they

561
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: have this coke machine breaking, but other than that, they

562
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: can't put anything together. No one saw anything, They have

563
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: no other evidence. A couple of theories start making the rounds.

564
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 2: One is that it was a mafia hit gone bad.

565
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: Possibly someone was trying to hit the man who was

566
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: supposed to be working that night, Jim Young, Apparently his

567
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: son had been involved in some malfeasans mafia hit theory

568
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: was first. One of the relatives of the Philo Hall

569
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: family had been told that and been told that they

570
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: were there was actually something gone wrong. The hit man

571
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: was going to kill Deputy Sheriff Young ended up killing

572
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: j T. And because, interestingly enough, there was a mafia

573
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: member who was in the Hall Filo family. His name

574
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: was tutsy because there was a hall Filo family member

575
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: who was in the mafia. It was said that the

576
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: killer was actually murdered himself and his body dumped at

577
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: the bottom of a bridge, so the whole thing had

578
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: ended there. So that was one theory that had gone around.

579
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: The other thing was theory that gone around was he

580
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: had all these incredibly wealthy people living in that area,

581
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: the Manor country Club area, who had all these teenagers,

582
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: a lot of whom were involved in mishift and in

583
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: crimes and things like that. And so the other theory

584
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: was that the murder had been done by one of

585
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: these teenagers we don't know who what, and that their

586
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: parents had paid for there to be silence, that nothing

587
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: further was done, that the investigation basically round to a halt.

588
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: Both of those seemed far fetched to me, but those

589
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: were the two other theories, alternative theories that were going

590
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: on as to why a murder of this caliber. And

591
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: you said before by the Deputy sheriff, believe me, after

592
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: going to several of these yearly Montgomery County Memorial weeks

593
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 2: that they have and going to the ceremonies, the candlelying ceremonies,

594
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: I have the way they honor each of these men

595
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: and women that were killed in the line of duty.

596
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: It's of utmost importance that they solved this. They considered

597
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: these people anyone that's died in the line of duty.

598
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 2: It's just been a terrible tragedy and there has to

599
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: be resolution.

600
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: But you know, Sweat and Boone run into a brick wall.

601
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: They can't make a case against Norman Shoemaker, and you know,

602
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: after six months, it goes cold, it just gets put

603
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: away in a file. And that is that for fifty years.

604
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not going to say for fifty years, because

605
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: what I'm going to say is that in nineteen seventy

606
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: five was the other major case of Montgomery County that's

607
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: known for the abduction, rape, and murder of the Lion's Sisters,

608
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: Lyo and Sisters. Yeah, these were two girls ten or

609
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: twelve years old who were went to the Wheaton Plaza Mall,

610
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: which was a open mall at that time in Montgomery County,

611
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: and both of them were seen there. It was Sheila

612
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: and Kate Lyon. They were abducted, apparently in plain sight,

613
00:32:54,240 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: and they were then raped repeatedly, apparently murdered Audies burned

614
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: and thought to have been taken and buried in Virginia

615
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: in that case had been called for forty years, but

616
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: in twenty twelve that case was reopened and it's the

617
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: subject of the book by Mark Bowden, who also wrote

618
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 2: Black Hawk Down. He wrote a book about this entitled

619
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: The Last Stone, and in Balden's excellent book, he talks

620
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: about how this group of cold case detectives is put

621
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: together to solve this case. It was done by a

622
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: man named Chris Homrock HM Rck and home Rock, and

623
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,479
Speaker 2: these detectives are basically go back through the case figure

624
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: out the things that had been missed and were able

625
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: to after a couple of years of working, were able

626
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: to get a confession from the man who has tried

627
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: and convicted of the rape and murder of these two girls.

628
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: So I think that was on the fortieth anniversary twenty fifteen.

629
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: So I think because of that there was some impetus

630
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: when the fiftieth anniversary of this case came up to say, hey,

631
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: if we're going to find anything, we got to do

632
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: it now before everybody who's involved in the case is dead.

633
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: And so they turned again to Chris Homrock to form

634
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: a Cold Case Team and on the original team that

635
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: sawved the Lion murder case. Blincester's murder case was Katie Leggett,

636
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: and Katie had been in the Child Primes program. That's

637
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 2: where she made her bones, was dealing with people who

638
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: had abuse children, sexual abuse and things like that. And

639
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: for the next ten years that's all she did was

640
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 2: she was on the cold case detective team. So she

641
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: was selected to be part of the cold case team

642
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: to try to solve this case. At the time that

643
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: this was going on, there were a lot of active

644
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: murder investigations that were shorthanded. But a patrol officer who

645
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 2: had been doing plain clothes patrol, Lisa Killing, had asked

646
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: for transfer to cold case team because she was interested

647
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 2: in knowing what it was like to work a cold case.

648
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 2: So they put her. She was an excellent outstanding officer

649
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 2: in the outstanding record. They put her on this case.

650
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 2: And then they picked a woman from the Homicide Division,

651
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 2: Sarah White, and she made out that three of them

652
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: made the cold case team to solve this and so

653
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 2: that was in twenty twenty one and they got to.

654
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: Work what do they have to work with? Because didn't

655
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: you say the things they collected didn't have DNA, that's correct.

656
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: Everything they had to work with was in one cardboard

657
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: box and that cardboard box was plunked down on Lisa's

658
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: Lisa Killen's desk, and she was told by Katy Leggett,

659
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: go through it. Put it into a way that you

660
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: can interpret it and you can work with it. And

661
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: so she went started going through all the evidence particulously

662
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 2: and really nothing was showing up. There are some things

663
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 2: that they investigated, but nothing was shown up until she

664
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: came to a real to real tape that was labeled

665
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 2: interview with Richard Hobart hoba Rt. Richard had been a

666
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: young man who also had involved in some different things

667
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: around that area. And it was interesting because his name

668
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: and the license plate number of his parents' car was

669
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 2: found in the notebook that JT. Hall always carried with

670
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 2: him when he was on patrol.

671
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: Oh, so he saw the car, so he saw.

672
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: The So he saw a car and had that in him.

673
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: So Lisa Killen decided she needed to get that first.

674
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: She didn't even know what a real real tape was,

675
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 2: but when she finally got figured it out, she needed

676
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: to get it digitalized into a form that she and

677
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 2: her co detectives could look at and so they spent

678
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: quite a time doing that, and then finally it had

679
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 2: to be done by the FBI. They were the only

680
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 2: ones that had the technology to do that. And when

681
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 2: they got the tape and sat and listened down listened

682
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 2: to it, it was about a three hour interview with

683
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: a man named Larry Becker. And Larry Becker in that

684
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 2: interview had been put in jail in nineteen seventy two

685
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 2: for robbie a townhouse in Glenmont, which is a community

686
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 2: near Rockville, Maryland. And he had been put in jail

687
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: in seventy two and then, while serving time in kind

688
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: of a lower level prison, had escaped from jail, and

689
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: then when he was caught and brought back, they added

690
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: extra time to a sentence. So he came in in

691
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two and said, Okay, I have information about

692
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 2: the murder that occurred of Deputy Sheriff JT. Hall, and

693
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: I'm willing to give you that information exchange for leniency

694
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 2: or reduction in my sentences.

695
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 1: That's interesting, Okay, keep going.

696
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, he just showed up and said that. So he

697
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: shows up and they interviewed him for three hours and

698
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: the men that interview him had nothing to do with

699
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: the original case and really didn't have a really good

700
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: idea of what had happened. But what he did in

701
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: that interview, he said that he was an eyewitness to

702
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 2: what had happened. He was the first person that was

703
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: a witness, and he said he had seen seven to

704
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 2: eight boys on the coke machines and they were trying

705
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: to break into the coke machines. He had identified the

706
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: four of them that he knew, and he said that

707
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: it was a clear, beautiful night. Visibility was great, but

708
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 2: he was in an area where they couldn't see him,

709
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: but he could see them. And then he saw someone

710
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: come out who was dressed in normal sheriff's clothing, not

711
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 2: the yellow raincoat that JT. Hall was wearing that night

712
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: in which he was founding. When he was found down

713
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 2: on the park lot, bat Man said to the boys, hey,

714
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: what are you doing. One of the boys, who identified

715
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 2: as someone named Greg schwar crouched down and shot twice.

716
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: There were two shots, and he also said that the

717
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 2: policeman had shined a flashlight directly at them, and so

718
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 2: he identified both there being a flashlight and the fact

719
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: that there were two shots. He then said after the

720
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: shots were fired, he ran away. He ran to a

721
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: place called Maggie's, which was the Church of Mary Magdalene,

722
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: which is where they had a youth center for these

723
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: teenage boys and girls to gather, and that later on

724
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: the murderer, Greg Swar had shown up there. Also, Larry

725
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: said that he hadn't come forward sooner because he was

726
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: afraid of the consequences of it, because everybody would know

727
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 2: that he was a snitch and that some of these

728
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: boys had older brothers that would get him and could

729
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: possibly hurt him. But now he felt like he was

730
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 2: going to serve his time in jail, leave Maryland and

731
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: never come back to Maryland again. So he was willing

732
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 2: to talk to them and lay out the whole scene

733
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 2: that night.

734
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: And so, I mean, I was just looking down. I

735
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: don't have a note about Greg. Out of all of

736
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: these boys you were talking about, I mean, I see Robert,

737
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: I see Norman, I see a couple of other folks.

738
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: What are the cold case detectives thinking about that when

739
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 1: they hear that reel to reel? Are they're now looking

740
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: for Greg's information? I'm assuming so Greg was very easily.

741
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: He quickly alibied out, Oh okay, so he was not

742
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 2: there that night, had nothing, and he had alibi the show.

743
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 2: And none of the four boys that he mentioned out

744
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: of the seven or eight that he said were there,

745
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: were there. They were all alibied out.

746
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: How old was Larry when this happened? I just am

747
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 1: trying to set.

748
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 2: That Larry at this time was in his early twenties.

749
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: He was twenty when the deputy sheriff of shots, and

750
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 2: we would have been about twenty one twenty two. He

751
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: was thirty when he left finished his sentence, because the

752
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 2: three policemen talked to him, looked at the evidence, looked

753
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: at where he said the body was, where he was shot,

754
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: where the confrontation had taken place, looked at the weather

755
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: that night which was different from what he said, looked

756
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: at what the policeman was wearing, which was when he

757
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: said yeah. And they basically said, this gentleman is lying

758
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: to try to gain reduction of a sentence. They disregarded it.

759
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: They kept the tape, mislabeled the tape and put it

760
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: back in the box.

761
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: Now you've got this group of cold case detectives and

762
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: they're listening to that interview, and I'm wondering if they

763
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 1: pick up on anything that had a grain of truth,

764
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: or why they would even be interested in Larry if

765
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: he was a big liar.

766
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: In police work, with these cases, there's very often the

767
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: hold back. In the Lion's Sister murder case, the hold

768
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 2: back was to clothes the girls were wearing. It was

769
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: never identify what they were wearing. And when they finally

770
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: got Lloyd Welch to talk, he was able to identify

771
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: exactly what they were wearing. The hole back in the

772
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 2: Deputy Sheriff JT. Hall case, there were two whole backs.

773
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: One no one ever said what the number of shots were,

774
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: and there were two shots that were fired, and he

775
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 2: identified two shots. And then number two, no one ever

776
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: said anything about a flashlight, and he identified the flashlight

777
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: as being there and being shot so by table shot

778
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 2: out of his hands, but did identify that the flashlight

779
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: was there. So that by saying those two things, and

780
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: he actually put himself at the scene of the murder,

781
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: the detectives felt that he was someone worthwhile pursuing.

782
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: Well, and I mean, and he's fingering a boy who

783
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: you say has a very clear alibi. So somebody's lying,

784
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: it's obviously him if he's saying the kid's there, and

785
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 1: the police can prove that he wasn't there.

786
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: The two things he said were right, but he got wrong.

787
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: So many things he got wrong. What the policeman was wearing,

788
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: what the weather was that night, where the policeman was found.

789
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: He said that he'd been shot twice from the front. Well,

790
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 2: he had this gunshot wound was in the back of

791
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: the head. The kill shot was from the back of

792
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 2: the head. And he said he was facing Greg's squire

793
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 2: when he was shot. So he'd gotten so many things

794
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: wrong that they did not feel he was there, and

795
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 2: they did. They disregarded sets money, and they made him

796
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 2: sort of his entire eight years.

797
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, what happens when you know, we flashed forward

798
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: and this group of women, these cold case detectives, realize

799
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: that he got a couple things right, and that whoever

800
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,280
Speaker 1: initially interviewed him had dismissed him far too quickly.

801
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: They couldn't find him. He was gone, he was lost.

802
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 2: They looked everywhere for Larry Becker, nowhere. So he had

803
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 2: a brother named Leslie Becker, And they looked back and

804
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: they saw that back in nineteen seventy two that Leslie

805
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: Becker had made a statement of the police saying that

806
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: his brother Larry might know something about the murder of

807
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: the deputy sheriff. So they decided. Lisa decided to look

808
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: for Leslie Becker, but he was dead, but in his

809
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: obituary it said that he had a surviving brother, Larry Smith,

810
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 2: and so she went on a deep dive into Larry Smith.

811
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: Larry Becker was originally born Larry Smith, as was Leslie Becker.

812
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: They were born in Little Falls, New York, the second

813
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: smallest city in the state of New York. There were

814
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: four children and they had a father who was never

815
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: home he was a truck driver, and a mother who

816
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,479
Speaker 2: he was an alcoholic, so that they were taken from

817
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: that household, four children put into foster homes until when

818
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 2: Larry was seven, mister Becker came by and his wife.

819
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: They had just adopted a little boy and they wanted

820
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: a sister to go with him. They couldn't have their

821
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 2: own children. Larry had an older sister and they wanted

822
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: to adopt just the older sister, but Larry's birth mother said, no,

823
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: if you're going to adopt anybody, you have to adopt

824
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: all four kids. So these people, the Beckers, adopted all

825
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 2: four kids and eventually moved them to Rockville, Maryland, where

826
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 2: he was working at an excellent job. And so Larry,

827
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: what he had done in the interim was just as

828
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: he'd said. He'd left Maryland after serving his time, changed

829
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 2: his name back to his original name, Larry Smith, and

830
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: moved to Little Falls, New York, where he started a

831
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: new life. Never been in trouble with the law. He

832
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: got married, he had three children. Interesting enough, he had

833
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: several jobs, including a job as a security guard, which

834
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: was the last job that he held. He had to

835
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: stop working and get on disability in his fifties due

836
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: to medical conditions. At different times in his life. He'd

837
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 2: smoked up to three packs a day. It was an

838
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: incredibly heavy smoker, had heart disease, had heart attacks, had

839
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 2: constructive pulmonary disease. But he'd been living quietly in Little Falls,

840
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: New York for forty years. Wow.

841
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: So they finally find him, and you know, this is

842
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: not enough evidence. Obviously, they need to talk to him

843
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: and they need to see what if there's any kind

844
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: of physical evidence or anything that ties him to this.

845
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: So I assume that the cold case detectives approach him

846
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: and say, we need to interview you.

847
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 2: First of all they did was they made two control

848
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: calls using someone named John Rizzo. When Larry had said

849
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: that night that he was an eye witness, he said

850
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: that he'd originally been with John Rizzo and then he'd

851
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 2: left John Rizzo and walked down to the country club.

852
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 2: John Rizzo at the time was in the military in California,

853
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 2: so there's no way he could have been with him.

854
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: But what they did was they got John Rizzo to

855
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 2: call him.

856
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: Can I pause for a second. I mean, that's ridiculous.

857
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: He is awful. He's not picking the right you know, alibis,

858
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: he's not picking the right weather. It's just silly mistakes.

859
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't never understand criminals sometimes.

860
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 2: Well, this is a gentleman who when he was tested

861
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 2: IQ both when he was with the Becker family down

862
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: in Maryland, he was sent away to a boys institute

863
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 2: placed like almost like a military school to try to

864
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 2: get him straightened out, and they tested his IQ then

865
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 2: in IQ of eighty seven. When it was retested later

866
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 2: on in life, when he was in his seventies, was

867
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: eighty three. He's a street wise person because at the

868
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: age of sixteen, the Becker family, the father threw him

869
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: out of the house onto the streets, and for the

870
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: next four years Larry lived on the streets of Montgomery

871
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: County in Rockville, Maryland. He did not have a home.

872
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: He either slept at Maggie's or there was a pet

873
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: cemetery where people would bury their pets right next to Maggie's,

874
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: which had open places where he could lie down and sleep.

875
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: So that's where this gentleman slept. So I think that

876
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 2: you're right in some ways. He's not real sharp, but

877
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: like I said, street wise and survival wise, he seems

878
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 2: to you know, he did a pretty good job.

879
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: Okay. So John Rizzo calls him and what's that? What

880
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: are these control calls?

881
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: Like? So control call means that the police are listening

882
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: in on the entire situation, and John says to him,

883
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: the police are after me because they say that you

884
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: name me. You and I both were there night the

885
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 2: deputy sheriff was killed. Now they've come after me, saying

886
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: that I'm the killer, and they don't know anything about

887
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 2: you because he changed your name. It took me so

888
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: long to find you this and that, and he said,

889
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: you better. You need to give me something that I

890
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 2: can tell the police so that they will get off

891
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 2: my back and leave me alone. In the first call,

892
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 2: Larry becker Smith denies being that person, denies ever living there,

893
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: denies knowing this person, and they eventually hangs up on him.

894
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: He then does Larry does things where he gets on

895
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 2: the internet and does different things to find out about

896
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 2: what's going on, tries to and he actually makes two

897
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: further calls back to John Rizzo, which John's instructed by

898
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 2: the police not to answer so that they can do

899
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 2: another control call. The second control call, Larry becker Smith

900
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: admits that he was that teenager who grew up in

901
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: that area. He denies having anything to do with the

902
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 2: murder of police officer. Can't even imagine why he's being

903
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: called about it. All he talks about is that he

904
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: was arrested for the burglary that was done in Glenmont

905
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: and the townhouse. And he said that he thinks that

906
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: the police are just pulling Brizil's leg not don't have

907
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: really anything on him, and that he can tell him

908
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: whatever he wants, it's not going to affect him. But

909
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: to just leave him alone, and they kind of leave

910
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 2: it in an adversarial way, but he at least they

911
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: got him to admit that he had lived in that

912
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: area and that Larry Smith or Larry Becker who they

913
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 2: were searching for, was now actually Larry Smith.

914
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: Wow, what happens next?

915
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: So the two police main people on the cold case team,

916
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 2: Katie Leggett and Lisa Killen, go up to that area,

917
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: take a trip up to that area and could do

918
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: some reconnaissance and they find that Larry Smith is now

919
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 2: living in a home for seniors. He's on the eighth

920
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,760
Speaker 2: floor in this apartment and he has his own apartment,

921
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 2: and they kind of figure out. They make contact with

922
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: the police force in that area and they tell them,

923
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 2: you know what's going on, and then they decide a

924
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: couple months later, they've tapped they haven't tapped his phone,

925
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 2: but they've been able to see on his phone who

926
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 2: he's called. For instance, they saw he had called back

927
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: to Rizzo that side, make calls to his daughter who

928
00:49:57,680 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: was taking care of him and who lived in the area.

929
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 2: And so they go back a couple months later with

930
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 2: the intention of interviewing him to find out what he

931
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 2: really knew about the crime. They had no other leads,

932
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: nothing else had turned up. Because he'd identified himself as

933
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: being there that night, and because he'd gotten two of

934
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: the holebacks wrecked, they decided to go up there and

935
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 2: to interview him. So they go to the police station,

936
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: get two officers with them, go to this place where

937
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 2: he's living, which has someone sitting there in the entrance

938
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 2: and has to let you in. They go up to

939
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: his apartment and he basically says, you know, I thought

940
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: you'd becoming because of what he talked to about Rizzo

941
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 2: and stuff. And they just say, hey, we're here to

942
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: talk to you. We want more information, and he agrees

943
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 2: to go with them to the police headquarters in great

944
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: Fall and to be interviewed.

945
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: What ends up happening, Does he confess and he goes

946
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: on trial.

947
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 2: It's the most amazing thing. It's a three and a

948
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 2: half hour discussion and you see Katie Leggett use her

949
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: incredible interrogation methods minimalization which she learned when she took

950
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 2: care of when people were child abusing, pedophiles and things

951
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 2: like that. You have to minimize the crime that they've done.

952
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: So will say, it's really not that bad. She also

953
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: said some things, you know, how built this gentleman up,

954
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 2: how great he was, how he turned his life around

955
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: this that the bottom line is he ends up confessing wow,

956
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 2: not only to them, but then within the next two days,

957
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: he calls his daughter and his son, who are separately

958
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 2: and tells each of them that, you know, he didn't

959
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 2: want to tell them this, but he'd murdered someone fifty

960
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 2: years before and he's now going to be going to

961
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 2: jail for it.

962
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, did he say that this is just

963
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: something that he's been thinking about? It was he racked

964
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: with guilt? It sounds like it. If he confessed quickly.

965
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 2: It was an incredible thing to watch. You have to

966
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 2: see them, and they're in a tiny room that's closed in,

967
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 2: no windows, one door, and he's sitting within a couple

968
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 2: of feet of each of these women detectives, and so

969
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 2: it's an incredible thing to watch. But they had said

970
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: to him that planted the idea. They had said to

971
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 2: him that this is you know, you're getting this. You

972
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: feel better now getting this off your chest, And he

973
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 2: said yes, And he kind of used that same phraseology

974
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 2: when he talked to his children.

975
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So does he take a plea deal while

976
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: not a plea deal.

977
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: What happens, so he's why his extradition. He's guilty, and

978
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: he's taken back to Maryland to stay in trial, and

979
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 2: then on the way there, once he gets there, he

980
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: changes his mind. He refused to ever talk to me,

981
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 2: but talking to his lawyers and other people and all,

982
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: he just basically decided that he didn't actually do it.

983
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: He'd been talked into doing it and instead of he

984
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: was initially assigned the public defender, but when they realized

985
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 2: the resources that would be needed to try this case

986
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: and defend this man, they turned it over to Comington

987
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: and Berlin, which is one of the largest law firms

988
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 2: in the world and has an incredible reputation. It's top

989
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 2: for pro bonal work. It's been ten times top law

990
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 2: firm in the country. And they assigned a lawyer, one

991
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: of their top lawyers, Kevin Collins, and a team of

992
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 2: three younger lawyers to defend him. I went up for

993
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: the trial. The first trial, it lasted five days. The

994
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,760
Speaker 2: verdict came back that they were able. They were trying

995
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 2: him for a first murder, which is premeditated murder, and

996
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 2: the jury came back not guilty on that or they

997
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: said it was not guilty but on the charges of

998
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 2: felony murder, which is murder while you're committing a felony,

999
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 2: which would be the robbery, and also in the charges

1000
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,240
Speaker 2: of felony burglary. They were deadlocked. It was either eleven

1001
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 2: to one or or tend to two to convict, so

1002
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 2: it was called a hung jury. They said they were

1003
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 2: hopelessly deadlocked. The judge said, We're going to retry this

1004
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 2: case because I'm not happy with this. I feel like

1005
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 2: it has to have a resolution, So they retried it.

1006
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 2: That was in January. They retried it in July. Between then,

1007
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 2: I'd had my heart surgery and all the different things

1008
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 2: were involved with that, so I couldn't go back up

1009
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: for the case. I heard everything through the filos, and

1010
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: things had changed. The defense now had focused in on

1011
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 2: looking at each part of the confession and whether or

1012
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 2: not it was his own words, or whether or not

1013
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,440
Speaker 2: it had been fed to him by the detectives. They

1014
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 2: had wanted to introduce two false confession experts to the trial,

1015
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: but the judge just allowed that. They said that twenty

1016
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 2: two percent of people who had been convicted on the

1017
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: basis that their confession turned out to have DNA was

1018
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 2: and everything else that exonerated them. But just on the

1019
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 2: basis of their confession, they were convicted. That's how powerful

1020
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 2: confession is. Jurrys hold that even higher than they do evidence.

1021
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 2: So the defense took each part of his confession and

1022
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: showed how prior to him saying something, it had been

1023
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: fed to him by Katie Leggett, that the things that

1024
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 2: he said were not his original ideas, and that when

1025
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: he was talking out during the confession was mainly the

1026
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: robbery that a KI had done at Glenmont, where no

1027
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: weapons were no one was killed, and they were able

1028
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 2: to convince the jury that he was innocent and that

1029
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: had been fed to him. The prosecution changed in that

1030
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 2: they presented things in a more cohesive fashion, and they also,

1031
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: instead of just the charges of that I mentioned previously,

1032
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: they also introduced the charges of conspiracy murder first degree

1033
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 2: and conspiracy burgerer first degree, saying that there was someone

1034
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 2: else who was nicknamed the Raven, and this was Billy

1035
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: Ray Edwards, and this was his best friend, that he

1036
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 2: had also been there that night because in the confession,

1037
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: when he had confessed to the detectives up in Little Falls.

1038
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: He brought in the name of the raven that he

1039
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: had been there also and originally said he had shot him,

1040
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 2: that it wasn't him. But the raven was six feet tall.

1041
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 2: Larry was five foot three, and when they asked him

1042
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 2: about told him about the directory of the bullet, how

1043
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 2: it gone from the back of the head, lodged behind

1044
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 2: the right eye. They said it couldn't have been some

1045
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 2: of the size of the raven, so he took that back.

1046
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 2: But anyway, because of them having those charges against the

1047
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 2: raven at the conspiracy, the raven did not appear as

1048
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 2: a witness in the second trial, and the first trial

1049
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 2: is his best friend, he said he knew Larry, he

1050
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,320
Speaker 2: knew nothing about the murder. Larry knew nothing about the murder,

1051
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 2: and so he was taken out of this whole second trial.

1052
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: And after the second trial the jury came back not

1053
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: guilty on all charges, and Larry Becker Smith was a

1054
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 2: free man.

1055
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, at what age? How old was he?

1056
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:40,439
Speaker 2: Seventy two? Carolyn Filo was eighty two, Bob's eighty two.

1057
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: They were crushed. So when I talked earlier about my

1058
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 2: relationship with them after that, and I, as I said,

1059
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 2: was writing the whole time. I had three hundred and

1060
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 2: thirty pages of this book written before the second trial,

1061
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 2: you know, because I was needed something to do to

1062
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: recover and get my mind off my recovery. But when

1063
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 2: I looked at everything and went back, I looked back

1064
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 2: and at the second trial. The one piece of evidence

1065
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 2: that came out that wasn't at the first trial was

1066
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 2: when he went in in nineteen seventy two to try

1067
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 2: to gain a lesser sentence. The second day that he

1068
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 2: was there interviewed with them, they introduced brought to a

1069
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: police officer named ow Sweat. This was nowhere introduced nowhere

1070
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: in the first trial, but ow Sweat actually took him

1071
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 2: out to the Manor Country Club parking lot and had

1072
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: him explain everything that he saw and what had happened.

1073
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: And ow Sweat said, this man didn't have eyeballs on it.

1074
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 2: So the man who had the most to gain, who

1075
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 2: had a spotless record of solving murders, and who knew

1076
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 2: the most about the crime. It was within a year,

1077
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: about eighteen months after the murder had occurred, didn't come

1078
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 2: out till the second trial that he actually on the

1079
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 2: second day in a not recorded portion, just none of

1080
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 2: that was recorded, but he had actually been there and

1081
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: said he did not have eyeballs on that. So when

1082
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 2: I wrote the book and I got that information when

1083
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: it came to the very end, rather than leaving everybody

1084
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 2: say well, I don't know what happened to I basically said,

1085
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: there's both sides presenting tremendous cases. There's evidence for evidence against.

1086
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: But the thing that makes me feel that he was

1087
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 2: innocent was that the original detective ow Sweat did have

1088
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: the opportunity to go back with him through everything and

1089
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,959
Speaker 2: said he wasn't there. So the Philo Hall family wasn't

1090
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 2: real happy. I think that I'd reached a different conclusion

1091
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: for anything even started a trial. We had been talking

1092
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,600
Speaker 2: about how this guy had murdered her father and how

1093
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: he had confessed, and how the case was now wrapped

1094
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 2: up and the family had resolution and things like that.

1095
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: And so I look back and Robert Filo, who's an

1096
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 2: excellent writer, he's in the attorney, he asked me if

1097
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 2: he could write a chapter giving the family's feelings as

1098
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 2: to what had happened and include that in the book,

1099
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 2: and I said yes. He sent me the chapter and

1100
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 2: what he'd written and with his wife and daughter, and

1101
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 2: so I included that as the last chapter in the book.

1102
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 2: And they still feel that Larry was the murderer, and

1103
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 2: they feel that ultimately God will be the one to judge.

1104
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: Is Larry still alive.

1105
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 2: Larry is still alive. He's back to living his quiet

1106
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 2: life in Little Falls in New York. The Pilos have

1107
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: since moved to Houston to be near their daughter and

1108
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 2: grandchildren and son who all live in Houston. But I've

1109
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 2: seen them since then. I'm still her doctor, and so

1110
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 2: I've seen her and I still talk to them, and

1111
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:38,919
Speaker 2: they're doing well. I think. I think that the fact

1112
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 2: the fact that they've been able to talk to people

1113
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 2: about the book, have neighbors and people come up to

1114
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 2: them and sign the book, and I think that they

1115
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 2: feel I think, does she if you talk to her

1116
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 2: and ask her, I think that she does. She says

1117
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 2: she doesn't really know what you know closure is. You know,

1118
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 2: you want closure for people, You want a family to

1119
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,480
Speaker 2: have closure. She doesn't know what closure is, but I

1120
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 2: think she feels like she has closure.

1121
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: Is Melvin still alive.

1122
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 2: Melvin is still alive. He's not in good health at all.

1123
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 2: He still lives in Virginia. His son Brian is retired

1124
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 2: police officer from Virginia and he lives close to him.

1125
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 2: His wife Judy is still alive. Incredible life story from

1126
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 2: Melvin and what he's done and what he's accomplished in

1127
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 2: his life.

1128
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1129
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All About the

1130
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:39,920
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All that Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and

1131
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1132
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: crime podcast, tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

1133
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1134
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1135
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 1: is Alexis M. Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

1136
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: This episodisode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

1137
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark,

1138
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

1139
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold More Wicked and on Twitter at

1140
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: tenfold More. And if you know of a historical crime

1141
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold

1142
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: more Wicked. Email us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com.

1143
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

1144
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: Wicked Words