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Speaker 1: Joining me now is a bit of a unicorn in

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Speaker 1: the world of politics. Maria Kamela I first met when

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Speaker 1: she did work largely for Republican candidates. She has since

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Speaker 1: worked for her share of Democratic candidates, and it doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean she may not work for somebody from either side

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Speaker 1: of the aisle. But I think the best way to

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Speaker 1: describe her she is probably as a constitutionalist, which these

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Speaker 1: days I feel like is its own separate and distinct category.

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Speaker 1: Given what we're watching with the extremes of both parties,

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Speaker 1: trying to basically run around with ends justifies the means

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Speaker 1: mindsets these days. I've known Maria. I want to say,

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Speaker 1: is it twenty five years Maria?

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Speaker 2: I think so. I feel like we were both much younger.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it was the early it was the early aughts.

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Speaker 1: I think you've aged better than me. I'm the one

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Speaker 1: losing my hair in graying, so you've got a couple

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Speaker 1: of advantages there. I'd say you've got better genes, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know that that might like that's the wrong

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Speaker 1: phrase these days. I can't I can't say that. But

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Speaker 1: one of the impetuses for this conversation where some memos

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Speaker 1: that you wrote you did work on behalf of the

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Speaker 1: Kamala Harris campaign. And actually, before we get to the

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Speaker 1: memos that you wrote that were part of one of

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Speaker 1: the What Happened in twenty twenty four books, I say

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Speaker 1: one of because there's like three or four already and

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Speaker 1: I think a couple more that are coming. And so

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Speaker 1: you've shared all of these memos with me and Frankly,

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Speaker 1: and I want to get to it. The memos read

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Speaker 1: to me like they're very They're very relevant right now.

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Speaker 1: Right what the issues that the Democratic Party and Kamala

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Speaker 1: Harris were dealing with in August, September and October arguably

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Speaker 1: are the same issues today. So I think it's a

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Speaker 1: very relevant conversation. But let me I think it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I just short changed your journey the give Give Give folks,

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Speaker 1: the five minute origin story of.

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Speaker 2: Maria Kamela Gosh, the origin story, you know, I think,

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Speaker 2: and this might explain why I've been able to work

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Speaker 2: on both sides of the aisle. I think from the

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Speaker 2: get go, I've always maybe I've been a little naive,

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Speaker 2: but I got into politics and wanted to work in

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Speaker 2: government because I believed in the constitution. There were certain

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Speaker 2: things that I grew up with Like my parents were

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Speaker 2: always talking about history at the dinner table, they were

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Speaker 2: talking about politics.

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Speaker 1: Where did you grow up, Maria?

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Speaker 2: I grew up up state New York outside Albany, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I was and I was, you know, first of

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Speaker 2: both you know, generations of both my mom and dad's

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Speaker 2: side to go to college. And you know, it was

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Speaker 2: so I was raised in a way that I think

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Speaker 2: it just was sort of a lover of like what,

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Speaker 2: you know, all the possibility of this country could be.

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Speaker 2: And I saw that with my parents. And I also

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Speaker 2: saw how my dad always gives me a hard time

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Speaker 2: for talking about this, but he was someone who also

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Speaker 2: voted on both sides of the eye also over the years, right,

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Speaker 2: so he was guided by certain things he believed in.

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Speaker 2: And you know, as it comes to as we've kind

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Speaker 2: of all come to see, like you know, the party's shift,

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Speaker 2: they change, like their dynamic, they you know, aren't consistent

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Speaker 2: in terms of the principles that to find them. And

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Speaker 2: I found that to be the case with myself on

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Speaker 2: a personal level. But I went to school in d C.

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Speaker 2: And went to college because for that reason, I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be in Washington, you know, intered on the hill

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Speaker 2: kind of so I know that pattern.

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Speaker 1: I picked a DC school for that same thing.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's like where to be right. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, ended up doing political campaigns and kind of

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Speaker 2: got the bug. And like once you get the bug,

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Speaker 2: it's like hard hard to shake it right because it

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Speaker 2: just feels like the be all and end all. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I started out in Republican politics. You know,

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Speaker 2: my first campaign was actually working for Governor George Bataki

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Speaker 2: on his third reelect here in New York, which was

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Speaker 2: again oh yeah, oh too. So you know, a year

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Speaker 2: after nine to eleven, his I think kind of instructive

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Speaker 2: right or Republican who was able you know, to win

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Speaker 2: support from you know, constituencies and coalitions you wouldn't expect

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Speaker 2: from a Republican And you know, went on did the

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Speaker 2: Bush campaign, you know, for in New Hampshire, and then

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Speaker 2: went to Iowa and did a governor's race there for

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Speaker 2: a member of Congress and it was you know, six

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Speaker 2: sort of bad year and for republic Jim Nussell, it

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Speaker 2: is Jim Mussell.

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Speaker 1: You well, I'm actually doing a project with Karen Nussell. Well,

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Speaker 1: I love Karen and she's terrific. I mean, we're it's

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Speaker 1: a great cause. Actually we're trying to build a coalition.

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Speaker 1: It's called trusted media, and but it's about it's really

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Speaker 1: bigger than that. It's she's working with just a quick aside,

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Speaker 1: a bunch of sort of former diplomats, State Department intel officers,

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Speaker 1: and you know, if we don't have trusted information, right,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter whether you think something's biased or not.

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Speaker 1: It's about is it truthful or not right? And we

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Speaker 1: have the and the intelligence agencies, right, they need trusted

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Speaker 1: information and if we don't have it, that's how sort

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Speaker 1: of societies crumble and stuff. And it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: great group because it's a different It's not just the

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Speaker 1: the pearl clutchers of the left about local you know,

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Speaker 1: about news, right, this is about the information ecosystem, which

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Speaker 1: to me is a bit of a bigger conversation. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: I just adore hair and Nustle and I've always been,

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Speaker 1: you know, going back to the paper bag with with

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Speaker 1: my friend Jim Nussell, and John Kaysack always says it

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Speaker 1: was Jim that put the paper bag on. I didn't

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Speaker 1: put the pack.

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Speaker 2: That is true, it was Jim, but you know, and

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Speaker 2: he was like a great you know. I mean it

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Speaker 2: was interesting when I think back to that time because

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Speaker 2: he was, you know, from the eastern part of Iowa.

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Speaker 2: His district was not predominantly Republican, so he had to win.

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Speaker 1: Very swingy district. Yeah, very union heavy, right, very swingy,

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Speaker 1: still swinging. I mean there's still a swing area. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And he you know, had a way right that

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Speaker 2: he had to which I think is like prescient when

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Speaker 2: we think about I think the Harrors campaign and certainly

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Speaker 2: folks today, is he actually had to earn earn votes

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Speaker 2: from people who weren't inclined to support and just based

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Speaker 2: on his party identity. And it was interesting because six

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Speaker 2: was sort of like that first year after you know,

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Speaker 2: the Bush re elect and four the rogue strategy right

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Speaker 2: drive out the base, so kind of every operative of

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Speaker 2: that era was kind of doubled down, uh, from a

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Speaker 2: strategic perspective. And you know that that that Agel, let's

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Speaker 2: like run the race from the last time versus one,

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Speaker 2: it's obviously different. And I watched him, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of struggle with that dynamic and uh, and.

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Speaker 1: I think you get a terrible first name congressman. You

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Speaker 1: know what I mean in a year that That's what

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Speaker 1: I always say. It's like when you're this is it's

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Speaker 1: always tough when you're an incumbent member, when you're from

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Speaker 1: Washington running for an office not of Washington, and Washington

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Speaker 1: is super unpopular in that moment, which in that moment,

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Speaker 1: it was right, you know, more so than usual type

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Speaker 1: of moment. You know, sometimes you just can't get out

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Speaker 1: from under the name congressman.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that's true. I also think

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Speaker 2: for me it was you know, it was instructive because

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Speaker 2: it was sort of seeing what happens when you when

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Speaker 2: you when you honestly true to your principles. And I'm

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously of the I understand that from political perspective,

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Speaker 2: there are times where it's like not worth the fight,

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Speaker 2: or you know, you need to do what you kind

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Speaker 2: of need to do. But I think it was the

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Speaker 2: first and sort of I think a series of folks

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Speaker 2: that I started working for where I saw, you know,

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Speaker 2: saw saw them move away from what you know, was

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Speaker 2: their brand or their core and it ultimately you know,

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Speaker 2: not working out, you know, And and I saw that particularly,

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Speaker 2: you know, going from Jim's race and I went on

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Speaker 2: to the presidential and OA and worked for Mayor Giuliani

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Speaker 2: of a of a different error Mayor Giuliani. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I went to work from in part because he was

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Speaker 2: kind of like, this is you M and I'm in

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Speaker 2: this pro choice Republican and it was just very clear

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Speaker 2: and definitive. And you know, even when we got into

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Speaker 2: that race, saw you know, saw saw him sort of

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Speaker 2: gid squeamish and look to kind of appeal to certain

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Speaker 2: constituencies and you know, see your kind of are doing that,

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Speaker 2: you kind of move away from who you are and

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Speaker 2: ult primary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a primary politics trap, right, like you know,

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Speaker 1: I think about it today with the Democratic Party, right

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Speaker 1: the base wants a fighter, swing voters want an adult

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Speaker 1: in the room, and the two don't.

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Speaker 2: Go in in hand right now, you know, no, no,

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Speaker 2: And he tendentially could meet somewhere.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think they kind of did, and I

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Speaker 1: think that was what they thought. I think I think

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Speaker 1: there was a belief that Biden could do that and

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Speaker 1: it turned out he could not. Write like it was

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Speaker 1: just another failure. We'll keep the journey going. So you're

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Speaker 1: a rudy yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Which is quite which honestly was a really unbelievable experience

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Speaker 2: and is the reason you know, I moved to New

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Speaker 2: York and you know haven't lapped since, so you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm grateful for that. And it was a real training ground,

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Speaker 2: you know, that race and dealing with the New York

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Speaker 2: press corps of an era. You know, that's when Maggie

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Speaker 2: Haberman was of the New York Post. So you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it was like you got you earned your stripes

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Speaker 2: on that race and running different.

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Speaker 1: Running for president is already right they at it is

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Speaker 1: that great quote an MRI from the soul when you

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Speaker 1: throw in the interest of the New York tabloids, right,

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Speaker 1: and that is that's just this added extra layer that

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Speaker 1: no other campaign had to deal with, right, And it's

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Speaker 1: it is there's a reason why New Yorkers, I mean,

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Speaker 1: which is why I think so many of us wrote

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Speaker 1: off Trump, because there was no way you could survive

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Speaker 1: the New York tabloids. I'm not sure Donald Trump it

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Speaker 1: turned out, but anyway, but but but I digress, keep going.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it Alrualdy then ended up doing the last

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Speaker 2: couple of months in the McCain campaign, and you know,

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Speaker 2: from there, you know, thought I was kind of done

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Speaker 2: with politics at like the ripe old age of like

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Speaker 2: twenty eight and it was kind of like this is

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Speaker 2: this isn't this is why I thought it was going

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Speaker 2: to be and ended up getting approached to go work

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Speaker 2: on this New Jersey got nurse race. I remember a

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Speaker 2: friends what I had worked with on, you know, Mike

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Speaker 2: Duhaim who I worked on Bush but then ultimately worked

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Speaker 2: on Rudy and then McCain, and I was he was

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Speaker 2: Really the reason was that mckaye called me and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I got this this race, who you know,

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Speaker 2: we really need a comms person. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know, Mike, I love you, like, but I'm not

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Speaker 2: about to go do my like third losing race in

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Speaker 2: a row with you because at the time, like I

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Speaker 2: was like a New Jersey Republican for governor. You gotta

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Speaker 2: be kidding ate. But you know, as like the story goes,

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Speaker 2: I did end up meeting with you know, uh, Chris Chrissy.

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Speaker 2: At the time was pretty reluctant because I think I

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Speaker 2: was pretty burned out, but ended up kind of getting

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Speaker 2: slowly you know, roped in and you know, next thing,

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Speaker 2: you know, he wins and so ended up you know,

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Speaker 2: spending the next six years in government, you know, working

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Speaker 2: for the state, did his presidential in fifteen sixteen, and

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Speaker 2: then you know, took some much deserved time off before

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Speaker 2: I you know, decided I wasn't done with politics yet

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Speaker 2: and went to go work for Governor Cuomo as his

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Speaker 2: cheapest staff and then fully got politics out of my

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Speaker 2: system at least, you know, for the time being.

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Speaker 1: So the private you keep saying you get politics out of.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it now too. I'm like, I'm totally done.

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Speaker 1: Shock, totally, of course you are. And then how'd you

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Speaker 1: get to the Kamala Harris campaign.

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Speaker 2: You know, I started my own firm two years ago

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Speaker 2: after doing a couple of stints in the private sector,

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Speaker 2: and you know that we're a small firm, but we

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Speaker 2: we all kind of took we took I want to

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Speaker 2: say we took a pause really to do Christie's last

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Speaker 2: presidential race because it was like very personal and it

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Speaker 2: just kind of felt like the right thing to do,

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Speaker 2: concidering how you wanted to do it, and so kind

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Speaker 2: of coming off of that when I was kind of

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Speaker 2: you know, sort of restarting the business, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I think just actively engaged in conversations and caring about

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Speaker 2: what was going to happen with the cycle. They they

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Speaker 2: reached out, So that's how that started. The conversation started

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Speaker 2: probably like really summer, so when Biden was still donomine,

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Speaker 2: So that's actually when the conversation started, and then obviously

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Speaker 2: got you know, put on pause until you know, once

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Speaker 2: the debate happened, and then you know, came back around

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Speaker 2: once they had Harris locked in.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I could say, there's an interesting through

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Speaker 1: line for you because Cuomo, Rudy and Christy more in

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Speaker 1: common than they are, more alike than unlike yes or no.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say this is what they have in common.

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Speaker 2: And I always joke with people and I have a

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Speaker 2: very specific niche which is Sicilian former prosecutors, and so

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Speaker 2: like love this it's true. So which is probably something

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Speaker 2: I should work out in therapy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's got to be a TV show. This is,

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Speaker 1: this has got to be forget. This is like, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is its own white lotus. I mean you literally

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Speaker 1: go from like island to island and you're like, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, the story is the same, the personality is

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Speaker 1: the same. What's going on now?

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Speaker 2: I will say I think people do think because of that,

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Speaker 2: but they are similar. And while there's I think because

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Speaker 2: of the Italian thing, the prosecuting, there's certainly an element

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Speaker 2: of personality that can be slightly similar, they actually all

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Speaker 2: are very different people and working with them from a

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Speaker 2: stylistic perspective, radically different, which I think does surprise people.

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Speaker 1: Of the three, who's the biggest reader, who's the who's

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Speaker 1: the one that like it's hard to keep up with

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Speaker 1: because they're probably reading more than you are.

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Speaker 2: I would think Chris Christy was like a close like

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Speaker 2: Juliani at that point in time when I went from

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Speaker 2: A seven Oa was a voracious reader as well, So

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Speaker 2: they have they have that in common, you know, to

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Speaker 2: the point where like this Rudy was like this in

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Speaker 2: O seven a way, you know, you couldn't put out

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Speaker 2: a statement on like a Supreme Court rolling until he

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Speaker 2: had read it right, so he was yeah, And Christy

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Speaker 2: has shades of that. And Christy Christy reads yeah voraciously.

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Speaker 2: He's reading like multiple books at any given time, so

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Speaker 2: he's and he's usually ahead of the clipse before you are. So.

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Speaker 1: And of the three, who's the most self aware of

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Speaker 1: public thinks of them at any given time, like who

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Speaker 1: truly understood you know, look, we all have an image

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Speaker 1: of what we believe we are, and then there's the

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Speaker 1: image of what you know, American sea of you right

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Speaker 1: type of mindset, right, whether you're a politician or any

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Speaker 1: sort of public figure. Of the three, who had the

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Speaker 1: most self awareness Governor Christen Yeah, would have been in

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Speaker 1: my guests. Of the three, yeah, justin And.

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Speaker 2: I think and I don't know if that's I think

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Speaker 2: it's specific to him. I don't know if it's also

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Speaker 2: maybe generational, but he always had an ability even going

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Speaker 2: back to sort of question you know what, just to

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Speaker 2: question right, and so look back and be reflective and

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Speaker 2: will come out differently. And I think, honestly, and I

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Speaker 2: say this because our relationships has changed over time, and

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Speaker 2: it's you know, it's could be started out at just

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Speaker 2: when where I was younger and a you know sort

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Speaker 2: of you know, employee boss, and you know, it's just

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Speaker 2: evolved as I've gotten older and things changed. But I think,

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Speaker 2: particularly in the last last ten years, he so much so,

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Speaker 2: he has so much so that I think when we

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Speaker 2: did this last race together, I think it was I

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Speaker 2: was like I was proud to call him a friend

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Speaker 2: because he was an actual human being who was unbelievably

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Speaker 2: I think, reflective and willing to take responsibility frankly in

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Speaker 2: a way that particularly in this day and age, and

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Speaker 2: I look at you know, politicians and just sort of

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Speaker 2: operatives and all of us in all of our roles

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Speaker 2: in terms of kind of how we've gotten here, I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, it takes a lot of self reflection, awareness

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Speaker 2: and kind of guts to be able to do that.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting he got really angry at me

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Speaker 1: over his last interview and meet the press in his

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Speaker 1: presidential campaign because it happened to it took place the

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Speaker 1: week the United CEO had to resign, and so what

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Speaker 1: was it might have been an interview without any of

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Speaker 1: those questions, and then the news happened, right, and he

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Speaker 1: and it just and I've had before, like Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 1: got mad at me because an interview had to change

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Speaker 1: because the news happened, right, you know. And so I

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Speaker 1: don't take it as personally, but he really, for a

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Speaker 1: long time has held the grudge. I think some of

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Speaker 1: it had to do with my own personal friendship with

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Speaker 1: Bill Baroni, and so who knows how much that's wrapped

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Speaker 1: up in there. But I have noticed it does seem

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Speaker 1: as if he doesn't get stuck. I guess is the

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Speaker 1: way that you know, he doesn't get stuck in the past,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's I've seen him reach out to some

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Speaker 1: people that I think ten years ago I didn't think

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Speaker 1: he would have done that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's you know, hopefully we're all

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Speaker 2: growing as people, and you know, and hopefully you know,

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Speaker 2: we're not also all known for like our worst moment,

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Speaker 2: right or the most challenging thing we've gone through. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I do think, you know, and I look

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Speaker 2: back at my experiences in tripically working in his administration.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was an unbelievable uh ride, and you know,

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Speaker 2: such high highs and low lows. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: I know this for myself, so I can only imagine

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Speaker 2: for him. You know, that's a lot to process in

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Speaker 2: a very short period of time. And uh so, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I think sometimes we under we underestimate that. I

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Speaker 2: think for for probably anyone who's on the stage in

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Speaker 2: the in the way they are ideally it hopefully they're

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Speaker 2: all human beings, maybe all of them are.

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Speaker 1: But well, I always say this, you know, I take

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Speaker 1: I take my pulse, right, because you know there's always

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Speaker 1: this thing you're biased and all this stuff. Well we're

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Speaker 1: all biased. We're all born, as I always like, so

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Speaker 1: we're born with original bias. You know. It's like where

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Speaker 1: you grew up, who you're born to, YadA YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 1: like what era you're born into, right, Like you know,

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Speaker 1: so all of it is inherent bias. The question is

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Speaker 1: are you fair? Right, That's what I've always sad when

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Speaker 1: it comes to that, Are you fair? Or for a politician?

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Speaker 1: Are you honest? You know, you know? And and go

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Speaker 1: from there. So how much do you feel like your

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Speaker 1: advice was taken by the Biden Harris team at any

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Speaker 1: given time? Did you feel as if you had a

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Speaker 1: seat at the table or you were just one of

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Speaker 1: many voices?

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Speaker 2: I felt probably two things. I think I felt one

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Speaker 2: that there was genuine interest in curiosity and in the

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Speaker 2: advice to the point of the way the engagement was

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Speaker 2: happening and the conversations I was part of. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, I think I was probably one of many,

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Speaker 2: And that may just be my impression of just from

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Speaker 2: the organization, right, which look like I think it's I

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Speaker 2: say this because I think it was probably a tough

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Speaker 2: dynamic for any candidate to be in a situation where

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Speaker 2: you have a team in an infrastructure that was not

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Speaker 2: your own, and everyone's trying to is operating under one

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Speaker 2: assumption and now it's a different one and you're trying

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to work with one another. But

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Speaker 2: it also did seem like there were a lot of

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Speaker 2: kind of cooks in the messaging kitchen, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: And I also found there was a lot of reliance

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Speaker 2: or focus on the tactics first. And I and I'm

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Speaker 2: you know, I come from a belief in a philosophy

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Speaker 2: like you kind of need to know what you're saying first,

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Speaker 2: and you need to know what you're trying to do

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Speaker 2: before you really get hung up on the tactics. But

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Speaker 2: that seemed to be kind of from a from an

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Speaker 2: operational perspective where the time was spent, you know us,

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Speaker 2: like what are we talking about when we do this interview?

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Speaker 1: So well, this goes back to I think who is

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Speaker 1: Kamala Harris? And I think that you know what comes

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Speaker 1: through in all your memos. You've shared them all with me,

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Speaker 1: or at least I don't know if you shared them all.

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Speaker 1: You've shared I think I did, Yeah, what what comes?

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Speaker 1: It's what's not what's what's missing that is glaring to me,

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Speaker 1: which is I still ridding all your memos. I felt

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Speaker 1: like you were you were viewing this through the prism

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Speaker 1: of the voters that are available to you, and how

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Speaker 1: do you talk to the voters that are available to you,

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Speaker 1: which is what a good strategy should be doing. But

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Speaker 1: the core problem with Kamala Harris, and this goes back

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Speaker 1: to her presidential campaign in twenty nineteen, right, I call

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Speaker 1: it twenty nineteen cause she kind of got out right

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Speaker 1: at the end of that calendar year, right before the turn,

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Speaker 1: really before Iowa. Who is she? Right? You know, she

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Speaker 1: was at times trying to be a progressive. Then she's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to be that progressive. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be a little bit over here, right, and she's you know,

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Speaker 1: I've had this thesis on her that she was talked

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Speaker 1: into running for president, that this was not I'm somebody

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Speaker 1: who believes that if you haven't thought about running for

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Speaker 1: president since you know, you know, since you basically became

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Speaker 1: an adult, right, if you weren't thinking about in high school,

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Speaker 1: you probably don't have what it takes to get all

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Speaker 1: the way there. You almost have to be obsessive about it. Right,

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Speaker 1: Bill Clinton at Boys State, right, was campaigning for president,

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Speaker 1: you know, in high school. You know, I think Rudy

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Speaker 1: Giuliani is a guy that you feel like was always

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Speaker 1: on the move. Right, It strikes me Chris Christy was

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Speaker 1: always had a goal, was goal oriented, right, you just

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Speaker 1: sort of know, you know, she she sort of she's

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Speaker 1: this she felt like consultants. It's always felt like to

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Speaker 1: me when you look, she got tucked into something. I

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Speaker 1: look at her and I said, the first office she

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Speaker 1: ever ran four was DA And I'm guessing this is

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Speaker 1: because that's what she wanted to do. And I think

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Speaker 1: the law and I think the you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: being on the prosecution side as a way to try

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Speaker 1: to sort of create more fairness than the justice system.

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Speaker 1: I genuinely believe that that was sort of where and

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Speaker 1: so I've always thought that her her. My guess is,

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Speaker 1: if I if I got to know twenty five year

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Speaker 1: old Kamala Harris, her goal was to be a Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court justice or attorney generally the United States, and somehow

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Speaker 1: somebody whispered in her ear. You know, you could be president.

432
00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: You could be the first woman to president, and you

433
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 1: don't unhear those things, right when enough people tell you,

434
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: suddenly you're like, yeah, why not, Hey, maybe I can

435
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: be president? Right, like you have this. And I've watched

436
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: people grab that bug because somebody planted the seat in

437
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 1: their head and suddenly they think why not versus was

438
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: it really a core goal? Because if it wasn't a

439
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 1: core goal, then you're going to continue to have these

440
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 1: identity issues. And I feel like she had ideological identity

441
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: issues in the first campaign and in this one. Yeah yeah,

442
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,680
Speaker 1: which might be explain why she never did the Rogan interview, right,

443
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: which might explain why she didn't do some of these things.

444
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: But that's my take. What did you see?

445
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I definitely I think you're right. I

446
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: agree with you in the sense that I don't know

447
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: that she knew who she is. I don't know that

448
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 2: she felt and that she felt comfortable and confident in

449
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 2: doing the things that you need to do when you're

450
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: running for office, right, because there is an inherent vulnerability

451
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: and running for office and exposing yourself to people and

452
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: revealing who you are and trying to get them to

453
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: trust you, and and and kind of bring them into

454
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 2: the fold. And I think I get why that can

455
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: be totally uncomfortable, which is that's the case, it's probably

456
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 2: the wrong business to be in, but uh, you know

457
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 2: so my sense, but my sense is that's that that

458
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 2: is much harder when you don't know innately what it

459
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 2: is you believe, right, because at some point, like the

460
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 2: talking point ends and then you're struggling. Right, So if

461
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: you're not in a completely controlled environment, or you know,

462
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: you don't know where the question is going to go,

463
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 2: or it's two dynamic if you don't feel comfortable one

464
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 2: saying I don't know, or you know, maybe actually being

465
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: reflective or kind of pushing back when someone disagrees with

466
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: you and being a little bit uncomfortable, you know that,

467
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 2: I think it just makes it tough to engage. And

468
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: that's what struck me, like, you know, when they were

469
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: looking for kind of my thoughts on Rogan, and I

470
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 2: think I write this, I write it in the memo

471
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 2: in the sense if it wasn't saying you should do this,

472
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 2: but it really was like, if you're going to do it,

473
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,239
Speaker 2: you really need to do it this way, and if

474
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: you can't do it this way, like you shouldn't bother

475
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: doing it at all, because it's not enough to just

476
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: check the box. And I felt sometimes that was the thinking,

477
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 2: Right if we just checked the box that we did

478
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: this thing, like we checked the box that we did

479
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 2: the Fox interview, and it's like that's not enough. Right.

480
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: When you go in there, you have to understand that

481
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: how are you communicating to that audience and what is

482
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 2: this showing and how are you revealing yourself in a

483
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 2: way that they're gonna be that they're going to trust

484
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: you a little bit or get a little more comfortable

485
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 2: with you. So I felt like sometimes you were just

486
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 2: checking the box on something to do it without really exploring, Okay, well,

487
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 2: what is it that I'm going to say and how

488
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: am I going to engage in this when I do

489
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: do it.

490
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: Let me highlight one of my favorite parts of one memo,

491
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: because this really chapped me the whole time, and it

492
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: bothered me during Biden's campaign in twenty and this one right,

493
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: which is the following, instead of Republicans for Harris, how

494
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: do we make it Harris for Republicans? This general framework

495
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,199
Speaker 1: is applicable to independence and moderate undecided. It's as well

496
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: as because it creates a structure that either makes it

497
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: possible to vote for her or comfortable enough not to

498
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: turn out to vote for Trump. I just thought that

499
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: that framing, and this is just one piece of one

500
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: memo you wrote. I just thought that framing. I never

501
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: felt Joe Biden knew how to camp. Basically, you know,

502
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: how do I make the case to the Bush Republicans

503
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: that I care about variousues, not just that hey, we

504
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 1: are in agreement that Trump's unconstitutional. Trump's not a constitutionalist,

505
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: which is and this is a threat to the republic.

506
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: But that was all they had. That was almost like

507
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: Biden and Frankly by the end Harris, it was all

508
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: they had in common. Yeah, right, rather than saying, well,

509
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 1: what are some issues that actually they care about besides

510
00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: Trump's inability to follow the constitution? Right? And how was

511
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: this memo received?

512
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 2: You know, I feel initially, well, I mean there was

513
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: a conversation in a call that I was a part

514
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 2: of where we kind of walked through it, or I

515
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: walked through it in part because I think the way

516
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 2: they were framing it, they were even framing me coming

517
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 2: in as a Republican and this kind of idea that

518
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: only a Republican can speak to a Republican, and you know,

519
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: that whole effort, which was trying to recruit sort of

520
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: frankly most people who reformer Republicans at that point or

521
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: Republicans of a different era, you know, as sort of spokespeople.

522
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: And I was really adamant like that that was not effective.

523
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: And you know, some of these folks who I love

524
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: them all, like you know, God bless Uzamnri, but like

525
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: no one knows who she is anymore, and it's really

526
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: not relevant and in some in some cases it's actually

527
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: counterintuitive and it's not helpful because the way they're carrying

528
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: that message actually doesn't connect with the with the individual.

529
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: And and so there seemed to be sort of we

530
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: would initially kind of get to like, yes, that makes sense.

531
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 2: I was asked the question ember on one call, someone

532
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: asked like Maria, like, so can we can we ask

533
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: you like like how effective is Liz Cheney, Like is

534
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: she as effective as like we think she is?

535
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, no, that's amazing that disconnect.

536
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: So they really thought, look, I mean, I you know,

537
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: I've known Liz Chaney a long time. I'm you know,

538
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: I've always sort of admired her steel spine, right even

539
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: when when when she's been disagreeable to certain to certain ideas.

540
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,719
Speaker 1: But it was pretty clear. I mean it's it's frankly,

541
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 1: the only person less effective at wooing a Republican might

542
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: have been Mitch.

543
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: McConnell, right, yeah, right, you know, yeah, And I think,

544
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: but I think that kind of goes I guess to

545
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: the point I was trying to make that at the

546
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: end of the day, it's the job of a candidate

547
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: to earn the vote, and I there was I think

548
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: a from a tactical perspective, an over alliance or a

549
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: belief that if you're using surrogates or others to speak

550
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: for you, somehow that was more effective. And so I

551
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 2: would in a lot of ways, was just like I

552
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: think that the message from the top down is what

553
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: you need to fix and how you're using your candidate.

554
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: You know what bothered me, it's like, look, I wish

555
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: they would have thought like a parliamentary system, which is look,

556
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: the Democrats don't have a majority in this country, okay,

557
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: but the Democrats plus the constitutionalists in the middle among

558
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,239
Speaker 1: independence I don't even know if I want to call

559
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: them the middle, but among independents and sort of the

560
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: constitutional Republicans, right, there was a common cause there, So

561
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: it's a coalition. In parliamentary systems. You give the coalition something,

562
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: you know, you're like, hey, you know what, I know

563
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: my base believes in this. But you know, like I

564
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: wanted to see her say I'm going to make Liz

565
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: Cheney DHS secretary, And you're sending a message I want

566
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: a conservative Republican who sort of believes in you know,

567
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 1: border security, who understands what it is, you know, the

568
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: meaning of it. Also from agricultural state, who understands the

569
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: need for migrants. Right. But the point is, like, and

570
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: neither neither Biden or Harris could bring themselves to do

571
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: that right at the end of the day. And this,

572
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: to me is the Democratic Party's problem. They're afraid that

573
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: you gave multiple times. The advice you were giving is, hey,

574
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: go after the left on something whatever. Maybe it's on

575
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: law and order in the cities. Maybe it is at

576
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: the border. We didn't get it right, you know, throw

577
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: a bone there, and the fact that they could never

578
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: get there. And I don't know if this is group

579
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: think around you know, I certainly it took I think

580
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: it took a change in chief of staff for Biden

581
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: to finally focus on the border. That's just my observation.

582
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: But it's stunning to me how often you were making

583
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: that case and they could never get there. There isn't

584
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: you know, what made Trump appealing to some in the middle,

585
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: his ability to go after sacred cows on the right.

586
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: You know, even if they were sacred cows, you're like,

587
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: why are you doing that? One didn't matter. It sent

588
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: the message and I'm not going to be conventional, right.

589
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: It never send the message that she was going to

590
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: be anything other than a conventional liberal democratic.

591
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: President, right, right, right, No, I think that's right. And

592
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: so it was. There'd be times where she was saying

593
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: or they were the camp is trying to tell you

594
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: she was going to be different, but in no way

595
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: were they showing right. And I think right there was

596
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: no example, right, there was something people could kind of

597
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 2: hang their hat on. They're like, okay, and I think

598
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: you know the other thing. And I felt this probably

599
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: more on a personal level, but you know, I was

600
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: very much like, look, you guys are very much like

601
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: country over party, but you're also very much like country

602
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: over party, just for one party. So kind of like

603
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: it has to be both and you know, I just

604
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: you know, there there was just there's the fact that

605
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: there was also a group of voters who were open, right,

606
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: who just need to get came from bowling off with

607
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: her that were like there for the taking that like

608
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: couldn't couldn't land the plane on I think, you know,

609
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: it's frustrating, and it sort of says it all because

610
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: on what you have a guy that like most people

611
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: disliked immensely, you know, didn't want to vote for, but

612
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: then looked at the options and like, well, I guess

613
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: I'll either stay home, I'll still vote for this guy.

614
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: And so you have to at least then at least

615
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: coming out of that, be a little bit reflective about

616
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 2: what that says about your party.

617
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: Well, and look they I think ultimately, if you're still

618
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: looking for one moment that symbolizes why she lost, it's

619
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: the moment on the view when she says you should

620
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: pick up one thing, right y, like forget anything else

621
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: right that. Ultimately, that was the moment, right that was

622
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: that crystallizes you know, nobody watches the view, so I'm

623
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: not going to sit here and say that, but it

624
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: was the perception. It was the clip. It reinforced a

625
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: stereotype many had, right it also you know, and look,

626
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, I sort of come at this. I

627
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: don't know if a sitting vice president under any circumstance

628
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: could win an election if the president that they serve

629
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: under has an approval rating under fifty. Right, you know,

630
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: we have we only have three or four examples, and

631
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,959
Speaker 1: you know, and they all sort of the winner the

632
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: one that won. HW Bush had a president with approval

633
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: rating over sixty. Right. Bill Clinton had character challenges that

634
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: was holding Gore back. LBJ had Vietnam problems that was

635
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: holding Humphrey back. And you know this really to me,

636
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: she really is Humphrey sixty eight. It's the same in

637
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: that she just could never get out from under the

638
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: unpopularity of the Biden administration. Humphrey could never get out.

639
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: He late came out against the war, said it was

640
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: a mistake. Right, he did throw Johnson very late under

641
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: the bus. And guess what, he only lost by a

642
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: percentage point, right, Like the popular vote was super super close,

643
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: So there was something, there was something there that voters

644
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: wanted to come on. Tell us, you know, I'm waiting

645
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: for it waiting for it, and she never did, and

646
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: you know, you just wonder was that worth a point?

647
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: Yeah?

648
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: You know it's we're not looking for ten points swing here,

649
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: You're looking for a one point No.

650
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: I mean, particularly when you look at I mean you know,

651
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: when you I know, when you kind of like take

652
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: a step back, it looks like, okay, when you look

653
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: at it, when you look at the map, it looks overwhelming.

654
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: But then you look at some of those close margins,

655
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 2: you know, in the battle grounds, and you're right, it's

656
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about point and a half maybe

657
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: two points, and so you know, it wasn't impossible. I

658
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 2: do think Look, I do think you know, you're right

659
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: in the sense that and I feel this that I

660
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: think it was it was an impossible scenario for her

661
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: to be put in. What's such a but I think

662
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: that's why I think it's it also speaks to how

663
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: the Biden campaign was operating even before she got there.

664
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: And and frankly, you know, the positioning like of that campaign,

665
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: and as you were saying, like even his campaign was

666
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: really making this all about out you know, referendum on

667
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 2: the future of democracy. And look, at the end of

668
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: the day, like I wanted to just wait to an

669
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: esoteric of a concept for an actual person to drop

670
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: their head around and think that that's the state and

671
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: what the stakes are on the ballot. But you know

672
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 2: it again means that you really kind of and ultimately

673
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: sort of cap out right all the people who are

674
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: going to vote for you based on that concept you

675
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 2: already have at some point, so you at some point

676
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 2: have to pivot and start figuring out how you earn

677
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: the votes of the people who that's not going to sway.

678
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: You write this on October fourth memo, you say it's

679
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: thirty days to go, and you you make this point

680
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: about the never Trump Republicans. Hey, you don't need a

681
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: campaign with them anymore. You almost don't need them. They

682
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: are already there. They're not And in some ways you

683
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: write this in October fourth, and yet what was the

684
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: closing argument right right? It might as well have been

685
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: written by George Conway and Bill Crystal at the Bulwark, right,

686
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: and God bless them, I mean, I mean, you know,

687
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: but that they they were already on board. You didn't

688
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: need a message to get them on You needed a

689
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 1: message to get people who were like, hey, you guys

690
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,320
Speaker 1: sucked at this What are you going to do? Differently?

691
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: Biden was terrible at this What are you going to do?

692
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,439
Speaker 2: Definitely right? And I think, well, I mean to that point,

693
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: I mean the closing argument and like the speech on

694
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 2: the mall right, you know you're picking a location and

695
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: invokes something very specific. Again, is that how you want

696
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 2: to end your campaign?

697
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: I'm curious were you involved in that decision making process.

698
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: Did you say, hey, not my favorite idea, because I

699
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: mean it the minute she did it, it was like

700
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: I'm doing here. And then of course I think something

701
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: stepped on at that day if I remember LEAs, that's right.

702
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: I can't remember what it was, but it either, but.

703
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: It was something something. You know, this is the problem

704
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: with our attention economy, right, like you can make up

705
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: you try to plan a big event, you've got to

706
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: be prepared for it to just you know, get undone

707
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: by by.

708
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: But that's also why I mean getting to the message

709
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: in a second. From a tactical perspective, you know, doing

710
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: your closing Arguman speech like a week out before the

711
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: election is like not the world we live in anymore, right,

712
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 2: Like this is in like nineteen eighty eight. You know

713
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: your closing argument, frankly needs to be you know, you

714
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: need to be whatever. The version of the closing argument

715
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: is that you're landing a plan on day in and

716
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 2: day out. You need at least be starting like thirty

717
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 2: days out right.

718
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: People are the way like by the way, I mean,

719
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: because it's funny you just said that about closing argument

720
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: messages that you don't do him this late. So my

721
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: son turned eighteen this year, but he was really following

722
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: the presidential for the first time, and so he'd sit

723
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: there and he'd be like, and we watch a lot

724
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: of sports, and of course in a campaign now the

725
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: only advertisements are beer and spear gambling and sports and

726
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: politics right in a campaign here, because it's the only

727
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: place you can advertise it and feel like you can

728
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: get a cross section audience. Right. So he'd sit there

729
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: and he said, man, these ads suckin's And he's not wrong,

730
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: and I understand what he meant. He goes, there's no

731
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 1: creativity to him, They're all kind of formulaic. So I

732
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: went on the Room Candidate, which is this fabulous historic

733
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: website of presidential campaign ads by cycle, and it starts

734
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: with nineteen fifty two and you can I'm telling you

735
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: it's not a rabbit hole. If you're kind of a

736
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: historic political junkie. Once you go down that rabbit hole,

737
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: you'll be there for an hour and go Jesus crime,

738
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: And what am I doing? Well? I got lost. I

739
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: started to show and basically it was nineteen eighty eight

740
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: was the we went from having creative ads before nineteen

741
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: eighty eight, like jingles and people would write their own songs. Literally,

742
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: my son's like, well, how come they don't do that anymore?

743
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: Kennedy Kennedy, Kennedy Kennedy, or try to make you laugh

744
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: at all this stuff? And I said, yeah, I said,

745
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: because they have too much data now and they just

746
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: are trying to talk to specific groups. And you really

747
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: see the transition in eighty eight. But it's funny you

748
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: say this, I recommend everybody. So Michael Dutakis buys a

749
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: five minute national TV spot the Sunday before the election,

750
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: and it's supposed to be a closing message and instead

751
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: it's an airing of crievances and it's just him going,

752
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you didn't get to know who I was.

753
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm sorry that the way that this process works. And

754
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, my god, like, no wonder he lost? What?

755
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 1: No wonder? Bush got four hundred electoral votes. Like if

756
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: you were on the fence and you watch that, you're like, well,

757
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: this is just a cranky, cranky technocrat from Boston. What's

758
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: it was literally like the Red Sox fans complaining about

759
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: the umpires, right, And this was his five minute closing argument.

760
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: And I wanted to I remember saying, well, you should

761
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: show this to every single political communications class. I'll tell

762
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: you what you don't do as a closing message. So

763
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: I recommend after this go look at it. You gotta

764
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: go watch it. It's his five minute closing spot. It's

765
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: on the living room candidate, and you're just like, I

766
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: can't believe anybody allowed. My guess is everybody had given

767
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: up on the campaign. Say what you want, governor, go ahead, right,

768
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: it's right, right speech to what Now? She never did

769
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: that type of closing message, but she didn't it. It

770
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: didn't get it didn't meet the voters where they were right.

771
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: And that's ultimately the problem. Right, You've got to meet

772
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: voters where they are.

773
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 2: No totally right, and and there's ways to do that

774
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: with and maybe the message putting the message aside. There's

775
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: way to do ways too that are more effective. And

776
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: I think if you're going to do sort of a

777
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: big moment in this day and age, you need to

778
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: know how you're kind of landing the plane on the

779
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 2: takeaway message up front, you know. And I think that

780
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: was a little bit of the conversation I had in

781
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: terms of when I was asked for feedback after it

782
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: was already a foregone conclusion. But again, like you have

783
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: to treat this like the main the main takeaway that

784
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: you want everyone to pay attention to needs to happen

785
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 2: right off the right, off the top. And you know,

786
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: there was also back and forth, and I can't remember

787
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: actually where the final speech you know, ended ended up

788
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: on this, but you know, sort of if you're going

789
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: to be there and you have the optics being what

790
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 2: they are, and the press is sort of alluding to

791
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: January sixth, like there's really no reason to mention it

792
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 2: in your speech, and in some respects, you know, one

793
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 2: of thing I said was you might be better off

794
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: not mentioning Trump at all. And and I but I

795
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: think this is like a larger problem for the Democratic Party,

796
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: And frankly, I think it's also going to be a

797
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: problem for the Republican Party post Trump is that, like,

798
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 2: Trump's made everybody lazy, right, So it's like.

799
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: That's so thank you for saying it that way. I

800
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: feel like the one I've always said, you know, the

801
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: Trump era is easy as a political analyst, because it

802
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: is we really have gotten dumb, right, and dumb and

803
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: lazy with our messaging, dumb and lazy with how we

804
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: appeal the voters. Dumb and lazy. And part of that,

805
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how much of that is social media

806
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: algorithms rewarding dumb and lazy too, Like I think that

807
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: feeds into it, right, because that, yeah, that's that that

808
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: helps sort of drive mass content movement and stuff. But god,

809
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: what thank you for It's refreshing to hear that. It

810
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: is so true.

811
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: It's just I mean, look, yeah, I mean I look

812
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: and like Republicans. I mean, look, Republicans just follow whatever

813
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: Trump says, right, So it'll be interesting when he's not

814
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 2: there to fall, you know, how to like whatever the

815
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: next class of Republican candidates are. How do they figure

816
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: out who they are? Right? And you know, how do

817
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: they speak that language? And I and I think for Democrats, right,

818
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: it's just been this fallback. You know that Trump's so terrible,

819
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: and you know, and that's the case for Democrats, and

820
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 2: it's certainly for Republians. You never have to figure out

821
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: like what you're for, and you know, I do think

822
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: that's the harder thing, but it ultimately is the thing

823
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: that brings people with you and wins you votes.

824
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: And well, we haven't had a president who won by

825
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: as much by what they were for than what they

826
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 1: weren't since Bamba Oa. Right, he in some ways was successful.

827
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to be able to and you

828
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 1: know which, by the way, is the reason why he's

829
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: the only candidate to win by more than five points

830
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: to this century. Right, everything else has been a vote

831
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: against election. Well, I I don't know.

832
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: If I trust that person, So I'm going to go

833
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 2: with this person, right, Right, people are picking the lesser

834
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: of two evils, right, I mean, and I think last

835
00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: the last cycle was really instructive to that. I mean, one,

836
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: you know, you have people who don't identify the same

837
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 2: way as they did with traditional party structures. You had

838
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,479
Speaker 2: the majority of people actually not like and this bind

839
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 2: was still in the race like either Canada, and so

840
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 2: there is an opportunity there, Like, it does exist, it's

841
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: just you know, taking the time and figure out how

842
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 2: to get to it. And the truth is getting to

843
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: it may not mean success overnight. I think that is

844
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 2: what you know, like we all struggle with, right that

845
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: you don't you know you're not winning, you know you're

846
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 2: not because everything is about you know, winning an election,

847
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: the majority, you know, having the majority, even though I

848
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 2: feel like we live in a day and age where

849
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 2: once a party has the majority, they have no idea

850
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: what to do with the majority. So it's like, what

851
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: are we amassing this power for from a policy perspective?

852
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 2: But but I but like I do think there is

853
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: an opportunity there, and I do think whichever party figures

854
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: it out will be successful. Kind of coming off of

855
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 2: the Trump years, do.

856
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: You think there's any room I vacillate on this, Like

857
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: there's a part of me that says, boy, both parties

858
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: are kind of weak, which is why Sanders and Trump

859
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: so easily became leaders inside the party. Right they just

860
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: sort of they're kind of I've always said they were

861
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: kind of dead carcasses. There was a dead elephant and

862
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: a dead donkey, and they can get reanimated. At any

863
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: given time, you think there's room for a third party,

864
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: an independent or is it more of the there's room

865
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: temporarily for a sober candidate until the till the two

866
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: parties figured out like a La Perot.

867
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think if there is room, it

868
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: has to it has to be not an individual, but

869
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: there has to be an idea or an issue that's

870
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: like driving it. And I mean kind of historically when

871
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: you look at it, that's when a third party or

872
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: a party kind of evolution has really had the most success.

873
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: And it takes time. I think, you know, when we

874
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 2: kind of look at what was trying to happen with

875
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: no labels last time, you know, that's like that's an

876
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: that's an organization based on tactics, right, it's not based

877
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: on like a philosophy and ideology.

878
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: This is what the Forward Party I've been I've spent

879
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 1: a lot of time with the organizers there, and they're

880
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: they're wrestling with this when you know, because they have

881
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: like some of their supporters or supporters for tactical reasons,

882
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: and some of their supporters are supporters looking for a

883
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: true independent vision that that's that's unique from the two parties. Yeah,

884
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 1: and and yet if they come up with a platform,

885
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: it could scare people. You know, the potential collection of

886
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: non rs and d's is a fascinating group of people.

887
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: The problem is, other than not being a member of

888
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: the two major parties, they don't have a lot in

889
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: common right right?

890
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 2: Which is one? Which is which is right? How do

891
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: you figure out which is?

892
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: Maybe?

893
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: Then like whoever builds it, I don't need need to

894
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: maybe not be from a traditional party apparatus. I think, look,

895
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting. I do think it has to

896
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 2: be based in something that people can get behind, like

897
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 2: from a bill, like philosophy of government, something that you're like, okay,

898
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 2: I believe in this, and maybe the truth is a

899
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: I think a lot of times it has been one

900
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: issue because that usually it is one issue that can

901
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: get people from divergent ideological spectrums to come together. But

902
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: I do think in the Trump era and so me,

903
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: I think it was tough, like when you look at

904
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: the last cycle, putting aside the no roles, I think

905
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 2: organizational issue. I think I felt because we kind of

906
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: looked at this when Christy got out, we kind of

907
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: did it as a like, let's do it as like

908
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,479
Speaker 2: an academic experiment, like let's look at the numbers break down,

909
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: you know what we're seeing, and you could.

910
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: No and I had heard Christy certainly yeah into the

911
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: phone when the no labels people called and say, okay,

912
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 1: tell me what you got, but could never be convinced

913
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: that it was viable.

914
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: Right, So we kind of went through it and you

915
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: could see in the States that there is a pool

916
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 2: of gettable voters, like that was feasible. But then you

917
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: had the issue of money right at that point in

918
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: time baliand access, which you know, frankly was use of

919
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 2: the list problem, right, And then we kind of had

920
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: this other which is more abstract. It is just even

921
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: though the world we live in is very fractured from

922
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: a media perspective, there is still ill and maybe you

923
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: disagree with this, there's still sort of the the establishment

924
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: media sort of setting the tone of like the horse

925
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 2: race and sort of who's up who's down in a race, right,

926
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: And we kind of felt like it would be very

927
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 2: difficult unless you had maybe some former Republicans who were waity,

928
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 2: like Romney or someone else like that, who like came

929
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 2: out and supported you at the same time. And even

930
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: then we felt it would be very difficult to get

931
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 2: out of the gate and not have everyone immediately viewing

932
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: you as being a spoiler or taking votes away from Trump,

933
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 2: because so much of the dialogue at that point was around, oh,

934
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 2: we can't have like Trump be president, right, and you

935
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 2: know we even kind of said, you know, could you

936
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 2: even do this to have a conversation that kind of

937
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 2: forces the parties? Is I'm a believer in that, Like

938
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: that's you know, part of the reason why. Frankly, like

939
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 2: when Christie ran, it was interesting, it was like, we

940
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: need someone with this voice in the race, and you know,

941
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 2: we just views it particularly this last that last cycle.

942
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 2: You know, it just felt you couldn't get over that

943
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: that it would immediately have the point numbers and then

944
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: it becomes self fulfilling and then the race and the

945
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: substance it self is uncovered. I just would be hard

946
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 2: to get out from behind that, Which doesn't mean you

947
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: couldn't potentially do it at a later date or maybe

948
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: it's post Trump with more time, but it's certainly difficult.

949
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: Like I think, it's really difficult.

950
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: You know, I think, and I don't know how much

951
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: of this is just the political bork in me or

952
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: the anthropologist. I always say at this point, I feel

953
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 1: like I'm a political anthropologist more than anything else, trying

954
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: to figure out how these various tribes, how do they

955
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 1: interact with the actual civilization of people. Right, But you

956
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,760
Speaker 1: know one, you know, I had a fever dream about

957
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: Bill mcgraven as sort of the perfect anecdote for the

958
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: time we're living in, which is you get a military

959
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: leader who says, no, look, I don't have it. You

960
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 1: know I don't. I haven't gone deep on many of

961
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: the issues. I'm not going to tell you that I

962
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: have a specific answer about the border other than it's

963
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 1: ridiculous how this works. Our silent system is broken. And

964
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: here's what I am going to promise you is I'm

965
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: going to bring together this group and this group and

966
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: we're going to put together a plan in ninety days,

967
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: because one thing I'm good at in the military is

968
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: conceiving of a plan and executing it. And we're going

969
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: to be sort of a solutions based and hey, we're

970
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: going to try to update the constitution for the democracy

971
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: that we have in twenty first century America. Maybe all

972
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: of that. I think we're not there yet, right, I

973
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 1: think that there's not enough. There's not a big enough

974
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: constituency to say, you know what, the system is broken, right,

975
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: you can't. The two parties are only going to exploit

976
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: a broken system for power, which is what I feel

977
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: like we're in right now, which is whenever either of

978
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: them gets power. So let's change the Senate rules to

979
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: do this, or let's change the Senate rules to just

980
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: get our way, rather than saying, hey, are we building

981
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: a worse judiciary by doing it this way? Are we

982
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: building a worse Congress by doing it this way? And

983
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: I think unfortunately, there isn't enough and this gets it.

984
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: Charlie Cook and I had two old guys Yellow the

985
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: Cloud type of conversation last week, which was, you know,

986
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 1: because it was this whole like, people don't understand why

987
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: the Constitution has the compromise in it that it has,

988
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: and that if it's one thing to know that there

989
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: are three branches of government, nine people in Supreme No, no, no,

990
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: that's not when we say we've got a civics problem.

991
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: It's sort of understanding, well, why did we end up

992
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: with it this way? Well, because they actually couldn't come

993
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: to this agreement, so they created a system to force compromise.

994
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: And if more people understood the system at its best

995
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: is about compromise, not one side wins and the other

996
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: side loses. Yep, Right, then then you know which is

997
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: really the twentieth century mindset? Right. I've always said that

998
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: the end of the Cold War, you know, got rid

999
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: of our sober our sober brain, part of our brain

1000
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: because you know, both parties kept their fringes at bay

1001
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: during the Cold War, because we had a north star. Hey, yeah,

1002
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: promoting democracy. You know, we're all in the same team

1003
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: when we go overseas. Right, this whole idea that you know,

1004
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: you don't criticize, you know, outside the water's edge, is

1005
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: really a Cold War phenomenon, right, It was only that

1006
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: is not how we behaved pre World War Two, and

1007
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: it's not how we behave today. And I've always now

1008
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 1: lamented it turns out you and I grew up with

1009
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: a political system that actually might have been an outlier, right,

1010
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: and even a media ecosystem that was an outlier. Right.

1011
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: The most partisan media outside of this era is actually

1012
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: the Arab pre World War Two, right between the so

1013
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: during the nineteenth century and the early twentieth century. So

1014
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 1: we I think and so I don't think we're there

1015
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 1: just yet, but we're close. You know, we certainly are

1016
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 1: close that I think i'd want to be if I

1017
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,399
Speaker 1: were a candidate running for office in either twenty six

1018
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 1: or twenty eight. The number one thing I'd want people

1019
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 1: to think of me as as a reformer, right, whatever

1020
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: that means. Right, I'm going to refrain this reform, reform, reform,

1021
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a I'm a reformer. I'm not I'm

1022
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,479
Speaker 1: not happy with how this works. I'm gonna I'm gonna

1023
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: fix it. I'm a reformer. And and look, Trump comes

1024
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: across as a guy who wants to change things, right, yes,

1025
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: radically so, and all this sudden and this gets at

1026
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: the core. Kamala Harris never said she wanted to change

1027
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: a thing, right, and I think that was the you know,

1028
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: that's the core missing piece.

1029
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: I think that, Yeah, I think that's right. And also thinking,

1030
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 2: like almost people wanted to go back to the way

1031
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 2: it was before Trump, and you're actually, no, people don't

1032
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: want it to go back to that. There's a reason

1033
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 2: they voted for Trump, and.

1034
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: There's the reason they voted for Obama. Like I go

1035
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: back to the original sin Obama, I sit here and

1036
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: say the original sin was Obama endorsing Hillary's. No, no,

1037
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: this is now knock on her. It was just that

1038
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,760
Speaker 1: she was representative of the era that they were saying,

1039
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 1: no more of the Bushes than the Clintons, right, So

1040
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: instead it became no more Bushes Clinton's and you know,

1041
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: and it took Donald Trump to get rid of the

1042
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: Bushes and the Clintons, when actually Barack Obama was elected

1043
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: to do that and he chose not to.

1044
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. It's like everybody establishments get like very

1045
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 2: comfortable and like afraid, right, And I mean, I you know,

1046
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: I look at this on the Republican side, you know,

1047
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: when you kind of take a look back and sort

1048
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: of you know, because I think, you know, particularly after

1049
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: sixteen whenever I was sort of like, how did we

1050
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: get here? How did Trump actually become the nominee? And

1051
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 2: I was like, this is actually not that surprising, and

1052
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 2: I would use this so all this story of I

1053
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 2: think it was like twenty eleven, Christy had appointed a

1054
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 2: judge who was Muslim, and it had been someone who

1055
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: had worked with when he was a US attorney. I

1056
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 2: think was helpful in terms of facilitating relationships kind of

1057
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: per sonine eleven with the Muslim community, intelligent perspective, intelligence

1058
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 2: perspective and otherwise, and we were getting a lot of

1059
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 2: crap from the from the right on it, you know,

1060
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: practicing shari a lot, et cetera. Okay, and it's like

1061
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,240
Speaker 2: twenty eleven and I remember, you know, at a press

1062
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: conference one of the Jersey Press Corps asks in this

1063
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 2: question like you're getting a lot of you know, you're

1064
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 2: getting attacked on the right about this, and he, you know,

1065
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: he stopped and he was like, this is crazy, and

1066
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: then he kind of went through individuals credentials and like

1067
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 2: very matter of factly, and you know, we kind of

1068
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 2: looked at that moment or in New Jersey, it was

1069
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: very you know, dynamic, and the way he answered it,

1070
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 2: so of course we like you know, cut in and

1071
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: pushed it around. And you know, it's interesting because you know,

1072
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: like really kind of all the sort of typical outlets

1073
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 2: that you would think kind of like a slightly left

1074
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 2: of center like applauded what he said, right Joe's and

1075
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 2: you didn't say anything sort of what you would what

1076
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 2: you would call the establishment, the intellectual part of the right.

1077
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 2: And I'm kind of talking about the National Reviews, et cetera,

1078
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 2: et cetera, and Edward, Yeah, like there was no sort

1079
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: of coming out in sort of like essentially saying that

1080
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 2: they agreed and we can't have this kind of rhetoric

1081
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: in our party. Right, And I had a conversation with

1082
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 2: an editor of a you know, again, you wouldn't you

1083
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't think of this as like you as like maga

1084
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: media in today, but like again establishment conservative media. You know,

1085
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: we were talking about how, you know, there'd been a

1086
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: lot of this on the site. You know, we've been

1087
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 2: through this, how it's not accurate that he's practicing sharia

1088
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: as a judge. And editor was kind of like, look,

1089
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: I don't condone. I don't condone it, but like I

1090
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 2: can't control you know, what's on the site. And you're like, well, okay,

1091
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 2: so much for being an editor in chief here. But then,

1092
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 2: you know, you fast forward and you have a Republican

1093
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 2: nominee who's you know, banning, who's as part of his

1094
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 2: platform saying we're banning Muslims were coming into the country,

1095
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: and we're all suddenly shocked by right, and you know,

1096
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 2: it's it's sort of that slow creep of you know,

1097
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 2: the establishment, and this is whatever kind of the intellectual establishment,

1098
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 2: the folks who've been in office, the donor class, right,

1099
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: you know, nobody wanted to touch it for fear of

1100
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: losing a race or being primary. And so when you

1101
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: don't say anything right and you kind of let it

1102
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 2: fester like this is what you get and you can't

1103
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 2: And I always found it to just be this isn't genuous,

1104
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 2: isn't my word, But I just found that then entire

1105
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 2: group people who they were so shocked and upset with

1106
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 2: Trump and had no ability to kind of look inward

1107
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 2: and be like, how is I part of how we

1108
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 2: got here? Right to be part of I think part

1109
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 2: of the reason why people actually were kind of like,

1110
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 2: we're done with the establishment of this story because you

1111
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 2: guys are kind of full of it. So I don't disagree.

1112
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: I know I promised an hour, but there's like two

1113
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: other topics I'd like to get with you. I can

1114
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 1: you have a few more minutes? Are you okay to that?

1115
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: Okay?

1116
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: So topic one is sort of where it's interesting we

1117
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 1: both avoided this, where which Republicans have been comfortable breaking

1118
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: with Trump? And there's only two that I find that

1119
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: I think could be interesting presidential candidates because they both

1120
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,280
Speaker 1: it does seem as if they knew who they are

1121
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: regardless of Trump. And it's Rand Paul and Josh Holly.

1122
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: Those are the two that stand out to me right now.

1123
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 1: Right Paul has decided to double down and being sort

1124
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: of the small government guy, believing that there's still room

1125
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: for that. I think that at his core, right, and

1126
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,720
Speaker 1: he's uncomfortable with some of the tactics of law enforcement,

1127
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 1: and he always right, that's part of his libertarian wiring

1128
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 1: a little bit. And then you've got a Holly, who

1129
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: I think understands that Trump face better than Trump does. Right.

1130
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: You know, he's the guy realizing, hey, don't you know

1131
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 1: who our voters are? Like? You know, he actually in

1132
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: Missouri is is who there? You know Missouri? You know

1133
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 1: if if you know, if your message on the right

1134
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: works in Missouri, is going to work everywhere type of

1135
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: right now on the right. So those two stand out

1136
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 1: to me. Who stands out to you that you think

1137
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,720
Speaker 1: might be able to to because in order to succeed,

1138
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: you've got to be You're not going to be able

1139
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 1: to be fully anti Trump, right, You've got to be

1140
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: Trump adjacent but different.

1141
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 2: Maybe well, at least on the right, at least.

1142
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 1: For the Republican nomination in twenty.

1143
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: Eight I think, well, I think you need to be

1144
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 2: able to speak to speak to what works about Trump.

1145
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 2: I think, like, I think you can't be like a

1146
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 2: never Trump or anti Trump, like you know, throwing him aside. Right,

1147
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,919
Speaker 2: you have to kind of acknowledge, you know, the things

1148
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 2: that clearly have resonated. And I think, but I'm always

1149
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 2: hesitant to then say it has to be like Trump

1150
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 2: adjacent because I am curious about I think that kind

1151
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 2: of boxes you in, right, Like, is the Republican who's

1152
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 2: successful that able to tap into the same sentiment that's

1153
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 2: made Trump successful but makes it but makes it very

1154
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 2: uniquely their own, because no one else can truly emulate him, right,

1155
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 2: And that you know, if you try to emulate him,

1156
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 2: you're actually not going to be as successful at it.

1157
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: No, I think we've all learned that over time, and

1158
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: anybody that tries to be a you know, a copy

1159
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 1: a miniature of a successful you know, it never works, right, Yeah,

1160
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: it just never works.

1161
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 2: H Yeah. But if you're asking for the names, I

1162
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 2: feel like I don't have any. I mean, your actually

1163
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 2: yours are actually pretty good, you know, if I like

1164
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 2: thinking about it, like I can see they're on the

1165
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 2: I have to get Josh a little more bought. But

1166
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 2: I think I've struggled with that and I've kind of

1167
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,439
Speaker 2: been hopeful that there's somebody out there that we don't

1168
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 2: know about yet.

1169
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 1: You know, I don't I don't buy into camp right,

1170
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's got the personality of the

1171
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: charisma I say this with you know, that's not everybody does.

1172
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: But you know, I think he's ideologically in the correct spot.

1173
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 1: But do you have it? Right? We all know that's

1174
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: that uh, you know, elusive thing, right, and I DeSantis

1175
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: has that problem, right, you know, and that there's just

1176
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: a personality law there that that more than more than anything,

1177
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,439
Speaker 1: and and so so it is hard to see who

1178
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: you know, and and then the other candidates, right, Vance

1179
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: is just going to be you know, whatever's you know,

1180
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: sort of true like any sitting vice president, you can't

1181
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: get out from under your president, right you either run

1182
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: you either you either embrace it or you don't. Right,

1183
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: And and you can be Mike Pence and finished near

1184
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: to the bottom, or you can you can embrace, you know.

1185
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: And then there's guys like Greg Abbott, you know, who

1186
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: I think also will try to just run as a

1187
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: mini me versus you know, so you're right, I don't

1188
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,439
Speaker 1: see you know, I don't see any the only two

1189
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: that seem to be trying. That's why they're there. And

1190
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: I guess Glenn Younkin is, Hey, I'm the I'm the

1191
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: guy that kind of looks like the Bush era but

1192
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: doesn't hate Trump right right like, And I just don't

1193
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: know that feels I don't know, Yeah.

1194
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like a might one arrow, which I think,

1195
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 2: you know, you know, there's like so many candidates where

1196
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 2: I think like the donor class, like a certain class

1197
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 2: would always be like this is the next big candidate

1198
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 2: and then definably no. So I feel like he kind

1199
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 2: of falls into that camp.

1200
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: Anybody on the Democratic side of you think might be

1201
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: able to successfully as I'm going to quote your memo again,

1202
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: do something you know that are you know, candidate X,

1203
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: what candidate X will do for Republicans who don't like

1204
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: Trump versus just being you know, a candidate for people

1205
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 1: for the never trumpers.

1206
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I'm watching folks. I mean, I'm

1207
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: definitely interested. I'm intrigued by the new mayor of San

1208
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 2: Francisco's making. I think it's interesting.

1209
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: Daniel Lewie, Right, he's an heir, heir of the we've

1210
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: got like he is he Levi Strauss.

1211
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't want to say to finish like.

1212
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: Percent sure either, Yeah, I should know that too, so anyway,

1213
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: go ahead. But yes, he is a different type of

1214
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: democratic mayor, you know, sort of you know, uh, law

1215
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,920
Speaker 1: and order sort of Bill Clinton type might be the

1216
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 1: best way to describe.

1217
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, and then and you know what, and I'm

1218
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 2: probably a biased towards you know, if you're a mayor

1219
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 2: or governor and you kind of have that executive leadership, right,

1220
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 2: so you kind of like, how does that actually? You know,

1221
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 2: you have something tangible you have to figure out, right,

1222
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 2: So I think that's interesting to look at, you know.

1223
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,919
Speaker 2: I think like, you know, I mean, I can see

1224
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 2: like the charisma, the appeal like of a wes More.

1225
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: You know, she is also interesting. You know, I think

1226
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: it'll be interesting. I'm more curious to see how they

1227
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 2: kind of play out over the next year or so.

1228
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: I feel like I don't I feel like I feel

1229
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 2: like I have this like it's sort of on the edges. Oh,

1230
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 2: you could be interesting, but it's like too soon to tell.

1231
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: I just double checked he is LEVI stress, he is inherited, stressed. Right,

1232
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: that's intriguing. And then of course I got a close

1233
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: with New York City mayor and you know him. Well,

1234
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I was seeing a pretty good analysis about

1235
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: how it it. Here's what is fascinating to me because

1236
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: you lived the twenty sixteen campaign and on the Republican side,

1237
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 1: and I'm watching the sort of the Manhattan elite. They're like,

1238
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 1: it reminds me of the Republican elite of twenty sixteen,

1239
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: the stop Trump movement and the stop Mom Dannie movement. Hey,

1240
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: maybe if everybody agrees, right, cruise and Rubio one has

1241
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: to drop out or Cruise in kas one has a

1242
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: drop out, and nobody will drop out, right, you know,

1243
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: And and we're and and you see the polling, right, Hey,

1244
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: do you want Trump or or somebody that isn't Trump? Well,

1245
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: we want somebody that isn't Trump. Look like that really

1246
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 1: pulls well because there's no person that connected to it.

1247
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: It's like Mom Donnie. You know, you see this polling, well,

1248
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: and anti Mom Donnie candidate could get fifty five percent

1249
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: of the vote. Great, who is it right? You know

1250
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 1: who is right? And and this feels like a field

1251
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: of extraordinarily flawed candidate's like it, you know, to me,

1252
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: the only one that I would put by, that I

1253
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: would rally around as the guy we know the least

1254
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: about Walden, you know, like give me the none right,

1255
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,919
Speaker 1: rather than Cuomo and all the baggage. He comes with

1256
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: Adams and his and the Guardian angel right, and the

1257
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: Guardian angel guy who had noticed finally took the door

1258
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: off right. Yeah, God bless him. But you know they

1259
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: they it is And yet there still seems to be

1260
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: this well, Mama, we can stop mom, Donnie. We could

1261
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 1: stop mom Donnie. And it's like you could, but not

1262
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: with not, not with this crowd right now, with the candy. Yet.

1263
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 2: No, it's funny you say that, because I've actually felt

1264
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 2: it's very similar and to sixteen or just in general

1265
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 2: sort of what happens when you know a donor class

1266
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 2: or like a certain you know it'll be in your

1267
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 2: New York I. I don't know if they necessarily have

1268
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 2: a political affiliation where they're just like wealthy right suddenly

1269
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: decides right, something's not moving in the direction right if

1270
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 2: they wanted it to. And so there becomes like a

1271
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 2: panic because I remember saying to folks here early on

1272
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 2: when everyone was like, it's foregone conclusion. It's cuomo, you know,

1273
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 2: everyone's I never understood all this money. I literally said,

1274
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 2: I've seen I've seen this movie before, and I go, Actually,

1275
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 2: every time there's a group of like wellsy donors who

1276
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 2: get involved and like panic, donate a lot of money

1277
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 2: and get behind a candidate usually ends up being brang

1278
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 2: because like furthest from the pulse of the electorate. And

1279
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:56,919
Speaker 2: you know, I think that's what and look like part

1280
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 2: of what I think happened here I feel is not

1281
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 2: I mean, you're putting money behind you know, Como, who

1282
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: was a flawed candidate, right, was not likable, So it

1283
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 2: was trying to force something that you know was was

1284
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 2: was at odds. And I think it really speaks volumes

1285
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 2: to just the Democratic Party here and the fact that

1286
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 2: there's no bench right it sort of shocks me that

1287
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 2: you're in New York like there was not anyone else

1288
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 2: like the Democratic Party.

1289
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: I don't get it either. I mean, you know, this

1290
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 1: is where I really hold Jeffries and Schumer more accountable.

1291
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 1: Than others do, because this is your backyard. You're the

1292
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: two leaders. You're you're Look, there's nobody else in charge

1293
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 1: of the party right now, whether you like it or not.

1294
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: Right and if you can't, your job is to do

1295
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: what's in the best inches of the party. And having

1296
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: a socialist become the mayor of New York City is

1297
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: probably not going to improve the branding of the Democratic Party.

1298
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 1: That said, there are things to learn from Mom Donnie, Like,

1299
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:55,439
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny what works when you talk about

1300
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 1: the when you talk about problems people have versus your

1301
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: your own personallyenda. What Mom Donnie's talking about, to his credit,

1302
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: is the issues that voters care about. Hey, everything costs

1303
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 1: too much here, what can we do about it? Now?

1304
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 1: His solutions, I think are solutions that have been tried

1305
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: and just don't work. But you know, I I uh

1306
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: so that you know, but when somebody's running a better campaign,

1307
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 1: the answer isn't just throw money at a bad candidate.

1308
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 2: No, and and and also you know, I don't know

1309
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 2: if this is just because the super PACs have actually

1310
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 2: like made obviously made things worse where there's a belief

1311
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 2: if I just throw this money in the super pack

1312
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 2: and they you know, boombard voters with tactics like that

1313
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 2: somehow is going to make up for not having a

1314
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 2: good message or a good candidate. Like it doesn't. So

1315
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 2: I don't care how much money is in here, like

1316
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:49,479
Speaker 2: how many robo calls you do?

1317
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: Does anybody remember the Michael Bloomberg third term, because you know,

1318
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: people seem to forget, Yes he won, Remember how narrow

1319
01:05:56,120 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: his victory was. Yeah, and the candidate ran like nothing right,

1320
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:01,000
Speaker 1: Remember it.

1321
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 2: Was like and you're like kind of crazy breakdown of

1322
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 2: like the cost per voter at the time.

1323
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: And yes, yes he won, but it was you know,

1324
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 1: you're like money unless you're going to literally overwhelming money,

1325
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 1: which is ultimately what he had. But he didn't have

1326
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 1: the right message. He just did overwhelm tactically. But these

1327
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 1: days it's hard to overwhelm tactically.

1328
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I totally agree, And look on Donnie, he

1329
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 2: ran a good campaign and you're probably sometimes like this

1330
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 2: is really what it comes down to, you like who

1331
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: has a better message and who runs the better campaign?

1332
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 2: And it's like that's kind of what it's all about.

1333
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 2: So you know, what do you.

1334
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: Expect Cuomo to do? Is he going to drop.

1335
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 2: I don't think so. No, I'm going to.

1336
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 1: See this through, right, because he does pull the best, right.

1337
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:48,760
Speaker 1: I don't think any of them can win one on

1338
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 1: one with Donnie, Right, I just think that. And if

1339
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 1: Trump endorses Cuomo, I assume I don't see how that

1340
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: helps Cuomo.

1341
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

1342
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 1: I just I don't see how that works as a

1343
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: net a fit. And so it is. It feels like

1344
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 1: a trap to unite around Cuomo. He's the best possible version,

1345
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 1: and yet you know he loses, probably loses to Yeah.

1346
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,440
Speaker 2: Well, I mean in some respects it's similar bit different,

1347
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 2: but it's like, you know, it's the message of well,

1348
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 2: at least I'm not the other guy, right, And you know,

1349
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 2: I think as we've come to find out that.

1350
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: He's unless the other guy is literally Roy Moore, okay,

1351
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: who was a child predator, or David Duke, who was

1352
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 1: a white supper. Like I think about the times that

1353
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 1: this has worked, Okay, it worked specific it is like

1354
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 1: and unless it is so egregious, like you know Edward

1355
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: Edwards was a crook, but it was like vote for

1356
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 1: the crook. It's important, right, because the great bumper sticker.

1357
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 1: You know, by the way, Edwin Edwards was a likable

1358
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 1: guy too, right, like that actually actually had positive charisma,

1359
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: which I think mattered too. But dub Jones was a

1360
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: good candidate, right he did, like so, But ultimately this

1361
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: only works when it's that flawed. Other than that, it

1362
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: usually doesn't.

1363
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well I think that's totally right. So I

1364
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 2: do think I do feel like we know what the

1365
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 2: outcome is going to be, and I don't think throwing

1366
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 2: a bunch of money, you know, in advis is going

1367
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,679
Speaker 2: to make a difference. I think that's also misunderstanding why

1368
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 2: Donnie is successful and how you know, he's how he's

1369
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 2: built his campaign from the ground up, and again like

1370
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 2: it's it's again it's like different tactics, different message. But

1371
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 2: you know, this idea that you can just throw a

1372
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 2: ton of money and somehow that makes the difference, I

1373
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 2: just think is antiquated.

1374
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: Look, the larger issue is this is an indictment of

1375
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 1: democratic governance of blue cities, right and mom, Donnie has

1376
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: a different answer than Daniel Luriy has, but they're both

1377
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: one for the same reason.

1378
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:51,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1379
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 1: Right, they met the voters where they were, That's right,

1380
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:59,759
Speaker 1: They met the voters where the voters were hard. Stop, Well,

1381
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: do you like being a voter in New York City

1382
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:03,520
Speaker 1: this year or do you wish you weren't?

1383
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it keeps it interesting, right, so

1384
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 2: at least and like look, half the time, we don't

1385
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 2: even really make it so competitive general election here.

1386
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,679
Speaker 1: So you give me the first mayor since John Lindsay

1387
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:15,799
Speaker 1: not to get a majority.

1388
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:17,679
Speaker 2: It's interesting.

1389
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's a fun stat for you. Before Eric Adams,

1390
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 1: the three previous mayors all ran for president. Oh how

1391
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: about that? That is Rudy Bloomberg and de Blasio.

1392
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 2: I kind always forget about Deblasio.

1393
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you do you and a bunch of other

1394
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 1: New Yorkers.

1395
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 2: I know, well, you know, look I get it. You

1396
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 2: know as when I worked for Marriage Enta, we used

1397
01:09:44,400 --> 01:09:46,479
Speaker 2: to talk about how the government he ran was, you know,

1398
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,479
Speaker 2: more sizable than state of the State of Massachusetts, that

1399
01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 2: Governor Rombey. So I can see where you you know,

1400
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 2: we're from a governance perspective, there's there, there's like there's

1401
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 2: an equation there, but there is something. And I maybe

1402
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 2: from do this because I obviously, like I've worked for

1403
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,080
Speaker 2: a governor Jersey. I'm from upstate Europe, not the city,

1404
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 2: but I do like I do like the kind of

1405
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 2: rebellious character, and I like, you know, kind of the

1406
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 2: a little bit of the anti estylish, which think is

1407
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 2: probably more rooty than Boomberg. But I don't again that

1408
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 2: becomes it's it's interesting because I don't know how how

1409
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:24,519
Speaker 2: that ultimately translates. Right when you get on the national stage,

1410
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 2: it's it's it's more difficult, even though it can seem

1411
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 2: endearing or people like the idea that not sometimes it

1412
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 2: isn't where you ultimately, I guess want to see your president.

1413
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 2: But then Trump broke that bolt. So I don't know,

1414
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 2: like what, let me.

1415
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:40,080
Speaker 1: Get you out of here on this. How confident are

1416
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 1: you that you know who the next governor of New

1417
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:42,120
Speaker 1: Jersey is.

1418
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 2: Not?

1419
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:49,560
Speaker 1: Not? I think it's gonna be the closest race. I

1420
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:51,160
Speaker 1: think it's going to be the closest race of all

1421
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:54,840
Speaker 1: but twenty five races. Maybe the California referendum on redistricting

1422
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: is super close to But ultimately I think that I

1423
01:10:58,320 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 1: think this is a nail buyer.

1424
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I And for to be nailed by in New

1425
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:06,640
Speaker 2: Jersey is always interesting, right, And I think that's right

1426
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 2: when you look at the last election and how close

1427
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 2: it was and just.

1428
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:14,759
Speaker 1: Rather be Cheryl in the environment.

1429
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think and I and you know, there's

1430
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 2: been you know sort of you're saying things Harris couldn't do,

1431
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 2: you know, sort of get Cheryl. I just feel like

1432
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 2: sometimes there are uh, some certain Democrats somebody feel too

1433
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 2: beholden to some of their special interest groups in a

1434
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 2: way that makes them trumfortable in a general to kind

1435
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,439
Speaker 2: of break away from a messaging perspective, which Republicans are more.

1436
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 2: I mean when I when Christie round, obviously you had

1437
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 2: to do that, right.

1438
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 1: Well, and Republicans let them right?

1439
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, where they going to go? Who?

1440
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,280
Speaker 1: Well, Democrats, I don't know. Bill Clinton was the only

1441
01:11:53,680 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 1: one that had that attitude. Yeah, yeah, like and would

1442
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 1: be happy then would be alternative. So there's no doubt

1443
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 1: that the current leadership of the sort of the democratic

1444
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:13,480
Speaker 1: infrastructure is much I always say this, The Democratic strategist

1445
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: community is to the left of the voters, and the

1446
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,400
Speaker 1: Republican strategist community is also to the left of the voters.

1447
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 1: But that allows them to talk to swing voters, where

1448
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: the Democratic strategists are only talking to the base, right, like,

1449
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, and that's the you know, there's not enough

1450
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:33,240
Speaker 1: frankly right of center consultants like yourself talking to the

1451
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 1: Democratic Party.

1452
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's a really actually that's a

1453
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:38,519
Speaker 2: really smart, great way to summarize. And I actually feel

1454
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 2: described sort of my experience when I've been working with

1455
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:44,439
Speaker 2: Democrats and sort of captures sort of when I would

1456
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:46,479
Speaker 2: kind of be like, wait, what's going on here? So

1457
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:47,640
Speaker 2: I think it's exactly that.

1458
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Maria, this is great. I mean, you know, you uh,

1459
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:54,400
Speaker 1: this is a lot like I said, I'm god, I

1460
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: remember I think our a conversation at a coffee shop.

1461
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 1: What do you think if working for Chuck grass I'm like, yes,

1462
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: go to Iowa. Get to Iowa. That's where you want

1463
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:06,479
Speaker 1: to be. Did you ever work for grass Leaf for

1464
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 1: like ten seconds? Or you didn't do that one? Yeah?

1465
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 2: I didn't do I just Iowa just was a muscle

1466
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:14,519
Speaker 2: eighteen months in Iowa for Mussel and then but I

1467
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 2: was right.

1468
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 1: Right a little Iowa. It was a long way, right,

1469
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:18,800
Speaker 1: it did.

1470
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 2: And you know, yeah, I therefore then worked for presidential

1471
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:28,200
Speaker 2: candidates who did not play well at all, always.

1472
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 1: Wanted to skip Iowa. And I've always thought, you know,

1473
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is is that it is Ultimately,

1474
01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:36,320
Speaker 1: if you tell voters you don't want to talk to them,

1475
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 1: that's going to burn you down the road.

1476
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that's true.

1477
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 1: Skipping is a mistake. The skipping has always been a mistake.

1478
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: You don't have to compete as heavily, right, you can

1479
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: emphasize and say, hey, you know, I'm here, I'm going

1480
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 1: to show up here. But you know, I always thought

1481
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 1: I thought McCain got it right the second time.

1482
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you almost have to live it because

1483
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 2: I think sometimes it becomes hard like a candidate, and

1484
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 2: I feel like this happened to the few folks I

1485
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 2: worked for. You know, you you sort of are not

1486
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 2: going to spend a lot of time in Iowa, but

1487
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:06,479
Speaker 2: then you kind of get pulled into Iowa.

1488
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 1: So then because there's always an event, right, there's an event,

1489
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 1: and then you're like, hey, the whole national press is

1490
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 1: going to be at the state fair. Maybe I don't

1491
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:14,719
Speaker 1: have a stay fair, right.

1492
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 2: So then you're kind of like half in, half out,

1493
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:18,839
Speaker 2: So it ultimately like serves no purpose.

1494
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, well and by the way, back then, both

1495
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 1: in sixteen and eight, obviously it's less so today, I

1496
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:27,960
Speaker 1: was a swing state that was always where I thought

1497
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 1: it was a mistake because like, you're going to have

1498
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 1: to go back and talk to these voters because there's

1499
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 1: you know, and so that's where I've always I'm not

1500
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,679
Speaker 1: surprised that everybody that's tried the new Hampshire only strategy

1501
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: it only worked for Clinton because everybody skipped Iowa because

1502
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 1: Tom Hartson was in the race. Like you're just it

1503
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 1: is that is not the Everybody took the incorrect lesson

1504
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 1: from Clinton because if there's no Harkin, Clinton doesn't skip Iowa. Frankly,

1505
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 1: Clinton is built for Iowa. He would have probably won

1506
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:57,759
Speaker 1: the Coxes without Harken. Yeah, he's that kind of folksy

1507
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 1: kind of guy. So anyway, Maria, this is awesome. We're

1508
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 1: gonna have to do this more often.

1509
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:05,040
Speaker 2: Yes, this was fun. Thanks for having me.

1510
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: M