1
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From how Stuff

2
00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:14,600
Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the Buffy Cast.

3
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,759
Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we have a

4
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,680
Speaker 1: very special guest slash, a very special friend and co worker,

5
00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,520
Speaker 1: Lauren vogel Bomb. She is a producer here at How

6
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: Stuff Works, also a podcast personality video personality. You should

7
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,559
Speaker 1: do everything, Lauren, literally everything you. Oh no, no, no no, no,

8
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,919
Speaker 1: every everyone around here does everything. That's the beautiful part

9
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 1: of it. But yeah, I do have a podcast and

10
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: video show called How Stuff Works now and you know

11
00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,839
Speaker 1: whatever else other stuff. Yeah, like like Buffy Cast, like

12
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 1: Buffy Casts. I'm so excited that you guys actually decided

13
00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 1: to do this because we talked about it like a

14
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 1: year ago and then it never happened, and then I

15
00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: was sad that maybe it would never happen and that

16
00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 1: you hated me. But but it's all happening now and

17
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,240
Speaker 1: I'm just so excited because I just love Buffy so much. Well,

18
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,560
Speaker 1: you are the vogel Bomb dot com and that's why

19
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 1: we wanted you to come on the show and talk

20
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 1: about Buffy with us, because because here's the thing, like

21
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,000
Speaker 1: you adore Buffy and I did when I was much younger.

22
00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 1: I have not watched Buffy in a very long time,

23
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 1: and I really did not change that status for this

24
00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 1: show for the recording of this episode, which you know,

25
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 1: that's a good perspective because you have a childhood perspective.

26
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,920
Speaker 1: Lauren is our expert. I've I've I've watched, I've watched

27
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,600
Speaker 1: the series start to finish more than twice, certain or

28
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 1: an expert in slayge and and my my roommate um Andrew,

29
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,920
Speaker 1: who is also very much into the show, was so

30
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,800
Speaker 1: upset that he's not in this podcast right now. He

31
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 1: was like, I dress like a girl with that help

32
00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,120
Speaker 1: like that, but no, no, he um he and I

33
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,400
Speaker 1: have been watching and taking one of our other roommates

34
00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,560
Speaker 1: through some of the older episodes and classics. That sounds fun,

35
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,200
Speaker 1: So I have seen some of it very recently well,

36
00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 1: and I had not watched any of the show at

37
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 1: all ever until around a year ago when we first

38
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,639
Speaker 1: started talking about it, because we've heard about Buffy fandom

39
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,440
Speaker 1: from our stuff. I've never told you crew for so long,

40
00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,600
Speaker 1: y'all love Buffy. Well. About a year ago, we did

41
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,040
Speaker 1: uh some episodes on Witches, Hollywood Witches and also feminism

42
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,000
Speaker 1: and witchcraft, and so a lot of people were like, hello,

43
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 1: you you talked about all of this witchcraft stuff. Well

44
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 1: what about Buffy and vampire slaying and Willow and Willow

45
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,240
Speaker 1: and uh Tara and lots of stuff, so many witches

46
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 1: and warlocks and demons to cover. Uh. Yeah, it was

47
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,080
Speaker 1: super fun. I gotta say watching it as an adult

48
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,720
Speaker 1: because I wasn't allowed to watch it when it was

49
00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 1: airing because occult demon Yes, And I remember though, how

50
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,800
Speaker 1: much of a sex symbol Sarah Michelle Geller was, Like,

51
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 1: that was my impression. She was always like the cover

52
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 1: of the Haircut magazine. It was like either her or

53
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,680
Speaker 1: Jennifer Aniston. And she was always wear those spaghetti strap

54
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 1: tank tops. And I knew the names of everyone. I

55
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,359
Speaker 1: knew she was Buffy. I knew that she was all

56
00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,640
Speaker 1: into some super pale guy angel. But I also know

57
00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 1: that my parents would get super uncomfortable with all of

58
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:35,680
Speaker 1: that demonology happening in the house, so I had to

59
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 1: wait till I was thirty. Also, don't tell my mom. Yeah,

60
00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,080
Speaker 1: what would what would Nancy say if she knew you

61
00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 1: were watching it? Now? Oh? You know what, Nancy's cool? Cool? Cool? Now?

62
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 1: You know, she'd probably be all right with it, although

63
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know, I don't know. She still

64
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,040
Speaker 1: kind of squeaked out by like yoga classes, So Buffy

65
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 1: might be a little bit too far. Yeah, there are

66
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,040
Speaker 1: several yoga like poses that Buffy does get into you

67
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,360
Speaker 1: in her pursuit of fighting demons. It's true. So where

68
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: do we even begin with the Buffy Verse? Because it's

69
00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 1: so expansive, seven seasons plus a comic book series that

70
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 1: is ongoing and and creating new seasons. Is it's still

71
00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,120
Speaker 1: called just season eight? Yeah? Okay, Yeah, that was confusing

72
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:20,840
Speaker 1: for me. But I like it. I like that it's

73
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 1: consistent that even though it's several years long, it's still

74
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:28,479
Speaker 1: just called season eight. Hardcore fans um will say that

75
00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,240
Speaker 1: it's it's non canonical. So but I thought it was canonical.

76
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 1: I you know, I don't really like to It's not

77
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,400
Speaker 1: my argument. I don't have because of Joss Wheden. A

78
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,800
Speaker 1: fish in this fight? What's the like a fish in

79
00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 1: this fight? Because like a fish doesn't need a bicycle.

80
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,840
Speaker 1: Well that's how I fight, though, Is I get a

81
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,960
Speaker 1: fish and I slap you with it? Sorry, I know

82
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 1: it smells in here, but I just have it ready

83
00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,039
Speaker 1: in case things get a little testy. Always keep a

84
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 1: flounder in your so does A prepared woman always has

85
00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:04,159
Speaker 1: a flounder. That's true. So for people who were like

86
00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,800
Speaker 1: me not so long ago, who might not be so

87
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,799
Speaker 1: familiar with Buffy, what's the best way to break down

88
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,160
Speaker 1: who she is? I mean, obviously, the show title is

89
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,200
Speaker 1: pretty self explanatory. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That's that's It's

90
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 1: what it says on the box pretty much, that's what

91
00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,359
Speaker 1: you get. Um, she's uh, she's hull. She's the newest

92
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 1: in a long line of demon slayers who were created

93
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,560
Speaker 1: by the patriarchy, as it turns out, and yes, as

94
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 1: it turns out, and um, and she's she's just a

95
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,920
Speaker 1: normal teenage girl who's going about her slightly ditzy and

96
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,240
Speaker 1: charmed life. Is a very white, middle class person. And

97
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:47,400
Speaker 1: then suddenly she's dropped with this responsibility. Um. And then

98
00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 1: the show uses that to like basically walk us through

99
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,239
Speaker 1: how high school is. Like hell, yeah, yeah, literally, So

100
00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: Buffy moves to Sunnydale, where the show takes place most

101
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,159
Speaker 1: of the seasons take place, and it just so turns

102
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 1: out that Sandel California is which is fictional. Yes, it's

103
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 1: not a real place unfortunately, because it is a hell mouth. Yeah,

104
00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 1: it is situated right on top of a gate to Hell.

105
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,560
Speaker 1: And it was on the air from to two thousand three.

106
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 1: But first came Buffy the Movie, which I also have

107
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: not seen. I haven't seen it either really never. Oh

108
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,479
Speaker 1: my goodness. I loved it when it came out. I

109
00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,960
Speaker 1: was always really into horror and sci fi and all

110
00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,400
Speaker 1: of that, and so I was fascinated by by that

111
00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,400
Speaker 1: a long time before the Buffy the Vampire Slayer television

112
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,440
Speaker 1: series came out. I actually didn't start watching this series

113
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,000
Speaker 1: until season six was airing. My very first episode was

114
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,200
Speaker 1: the musical episode, and we had to pause it about

115
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 1: every four and a half seconds so that my friends

116
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,200
Speaker 1: could explain all like everything that was going on. Um.

117
00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:54,839
Speaker 1: But but no, uh, the movie, yes, um, it was

118
00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,600
Speaker 1: a lot less feminist e to borrow wadani is um

119
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,760
Speaker 1: um than the TV show wound wound up being. It was.

120
00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 1: Buffy was a lot more sexualized. It was. It was goofy.

121
00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 1: I mean, um, it had Dylan from nine O two

122
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,520
Speaker 1: and O in it. Yeah, that is that Luke Perry

123
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: and by the way. As we are recording this, Luke

124
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 1: Perry is currently on the cover of a ARP magazine.

125
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,760
Speaker 1: I know what, I know, Yes, but back to Buffy. Yeah, no,

126
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to need a minute. Yeah, I know we

127
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 1: are old. That's fine. No, that's I'm fine with that.

128
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 1: Um it had it had a really great sequence with

129
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 1: peee Herman Pee Herman. Um, I'm forgetting his name. Had

130
00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 1: Paul Rubens, thank you, had a really terrific death sequence

131
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,600
Speaker 1: that lasted like seven minutes. Uh Rutger howerd was in there.

132
00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,239
Speaker 1: I don't know why. No one knows why. Um. But

133
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 1: but yeah, it's the movie if if you choose to

134
00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,240
Speaker 1: believe what Joss Weeden says about it, and can we

135
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 1: really trust Josh Weeden? Um, now, if you from what

136
00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,920
Speaker 1: he says, it got out of his the studio took

137
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 1: it out of his control pretty early on, and so

138
00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 1: it sort of escaped him. And the TV show is

139
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 1: very much more along the lines of he was hoping

140
00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 1: to do with the concept. Well, and the original concept too,

141
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 1: was all about flipping the horror script where you usually

142
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 1: have a an attractive girl like a Buffy who would

143
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,320
Speaker 1: be killed off she's too sexy to survive. Right, she

144
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 1: wanders down the dark alley, she gets killed, or instead

145
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 1: of running to safety, she just runs upstairs and the

146
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 1: monster or the killer whoever gets here. But here's Buffy

147
00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 1: still looking that very stereotypically like cute California girl with

148
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,319
Speaker 1: the glitter eye shadow and the little pink tank taps,

149
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: still looking like that, but kicking major monster butt. Yeah. Yeah,

150
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 1: like like beware the monster that follows her into that

151
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,400
Speaker 1: dark alleyway. I mean to me, it was similar to

152
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 1: watching Jessica Jones, which I watched before I started watching Buffy. Yeah,

153
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,640
Speaker 1: and I had a similar sensation, like a comfort that

154
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 1: kicked in when I realized how Buffy can do this. Okay,

155
00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,160
Speaker 1: she's not She's not going to get beaten up by

156
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,840
Speaker 1: all of these monsters, or if she does get beaten

157
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,120
Speaker 1: up a little bit, they're going to get it much worse. Yeah. Absolutely,

158
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: We're gonna get dusted. Yeah. I think, Um, I think

159
00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,760
Speaker 1: that Jessica Jones is based so firmly and so much

160
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 1: of what Buffy the Vampire Slayer was doing, like like

161
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: right down to the actress that they cast as Jessica

162
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,320
Speaker 1: looking I think very much like Sarah Michelle Gellar and

163
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,600
Speaker 1: making a lot of very similar facial expressions in response

164
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,360
Speaker 1: to things that are going on. Well, I was kind

165
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,320
Speaker 1: of wondering not to get to ahead of ourselves. If

166
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,760
Speaker 1: Faith the other slayer that she meets, who's a little

167
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,680
Speaker 1: more rough and tumble, also a brunette. Um, it was

168
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 1: a little bit more of a Jessica Jones. But again,

169
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 1: like my expertise is certainly not as deep as yours.

170
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,360
Speaker 1: I like being an expert in something for once. Usually

171
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,400
Speaker 1: in this job, we all just research something for like

172
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,080
Speaker 1: two and a half minutes and then it's over, and

173
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,160
Speaker 1: now I'm just like, finally I have something to bring

174
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 1: to the table. Well, you should probably join up with

175
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,720
Speaker 1: the Weed and Studies people. Oh my gosh, this exists.

176
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,400
Speaker 1: Oh yes, it does. The Weed and Studies Association is

177
00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,880
Speaker 1: going strong, I tell you. Well, I mean, isn't that

178
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:04,280
Speaker 1: incredible though, Because I feel like so much of media

179
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 1: that is either buy or four girls, or it's focused

180
00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,040
Speaker 1: around girls, and I mean girls, not women. I do

181
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 1: mean girls. Uh, It's it's so easy to brush it

182
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 1: off and and academia just tends to ignore it as

183
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,679
Speaker 1: something girlish and sparkly and glittery. But here you have Buffy,

184
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:26,480
Speaker 1: which is clearly so right for the analyzing, and people

185
00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,680
Speaker 1: really have oh yeah, because you have a show that's

186
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 1: loaded with allegory, mythology, cultural references, its own lexicon. You

187
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 1: can buy a glossary, a Buffy glossary put together by

188
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 1: a linguist um. And the Weeden Studies Association is not

189
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,800
Speaker 1: just some you know, some Rando fans getting together. It's

190
00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,360
Speaker 1: it's not a site on geo cities. No, that's not

191
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,120
Speaker 1: it's not as AA. It was co founded, for instance,

192
00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:01,120
Speaker 1: by an English professor, David Lavery at Middle Tennessee Stay University.

193
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,200
Speaker 1: And as I was going through some of the papers

194
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 1: on their last night, I mean these are PhD students

195
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,959
Speaker 1: who are submitting to their two journals, the Slayage, which

196
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,960
Speaker 1: is the higher level journal, and then they have, uh,

197
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,640
Speaker 1: the Watcher Junior, which is for I think more like

198
00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,840
Speaker 1: bachelor degree level students. And for a little taste of

199
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 1: the kinds of papers that are still coming out examining

200
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 1: Buffy up down in sideways, you have some current Slayage

201
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,200
Speaker 1: articles Welcome to Buffy Dale, Mutual Construction of Bodies in

202
00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,280
Speaker 1: Space and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Okay, I also appreciated

203
00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,839
Speaker 1: this one. I thought it was very uh, very on

204
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,920
Speaker 1: point for stuff Mom Never Told You negotiations after Hedgemony,

205
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,199
Speaker 1: Buffy and gender, and I liked how the author describes

206
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:55,160
Speaker 1: the major female characters in Buffy as possessing a pariah femininity.

207
00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,720
Speaker 1: Interesting pariah to whom to I think social convention. But

208
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,320
Speaker 1: let's we'll get back to the pariahs in a moment.

209
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,400
Speaker 1: There's also tying into another stuff Mom Never Told You

210
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,400
Speaker 1: episode from a while back, heaps of images tarot cards

211
00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,960
Speaker 1: in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which also references the paper

212
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 1: Where's the Religion in the Willows WICCA? I mean, I

213
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,920
Speaker 1: can see how if you're going to analyze this show

214
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,400
Speaker 1: up down in sideways, you would have to eventually get

215
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,000
Speaker 1: to the corner of the show that is the specific

216
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,840
Speaker 1: WICA Willow practices. So let's offer a bird's eye view

217
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:39,120
Speaker 1: if we can, of the primary Buffy characters and the

218
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 1: dynamics between them, kind of what propels each each episode.

219
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,760
Speaker 1: Because in terms of genre, yes, you have the whole

220
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,600
Speaker 1: vampire demons and witchcraft, etcetera. But it's a very genre

221
00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,680
Speaker 1: busting show, but a lot of the relationships between the

222
00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,320
Speaker 1: characters and like who they are, um are really reliable yeah.

223
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,960
Speaker 1: Um And while we were preparing for this, it kind

224
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,880
Speaker 1: of struck me that the entire show focuses on Buffy's

225
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,080
Speaker 1: relationships with the women in her life. Um and And

226
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 1: it kind of occurred to me that that after a

227
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,199
Speaker 1: season two, after the main arcs of her and Angel's

228
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,920
Speaker 1: relationship are over, everything that she does is for either

229
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,439
Speaker 1: herself or for the women that she's connected to. Um

230
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 1: and that's that's her, her mother, Joyce, her eventual sister

231
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,680
Speaker 1: don Um. Spoiler alert. I'm not sure. I what's what's

232
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,839
Speaker 1: the what's the deadline? I feel like if a show

233
00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,319
Speaker 1: comes out, we can okay, we can offer some spoilers.

234
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,200
Speaker 1: Cool Yeah, yeah, her her super best friend ever Willow

235
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 1: um and and then and then some some surrounding characters,

236
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 1: some of the bad guys of Faith and Darla and

237
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:55,959
Speaker 1: Drusilla and uh and and Cordelia of course I forgot Cordelia. Oh, Cordelia.

238
00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,240
Speaker 1: So we have the primary relationship then with her and

239
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 1: her mom, which I'm a fan of Joyce. I gotta say, like,

240
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 1: when I was thinking back to watching this show, which

241
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,720
Speaker 1: I watched for several years before quitting, and that will

242
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 1: offer a transition in just a second. But I had

243
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,400
Speaker 1: a blank spot in my brain where Joyce was supposed

244
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,120
Speaker 1: to be. Like I, I could so clearly remember all

245
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,040
Speaker 1: the other characters, like I could remember the details of

246
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,760
Speaker 1: Terra's face, for instance, but like Joyce, I had and

247
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 1: I even googled her and nothing. There was nothing like that.

248
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 1: That's been replaced by like my early voting locations, which

249
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 1: is probably a good thing. Is she just the teacher

250
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 1: on Charlie Brown? Not even I literally didn't remember Buffy

251
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,960
Speaker 1: had a mother any who. But I quit the show

252
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,520
Speaker 1: for a very specific reason, and that is her fake

253
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,120
Speaker 1: sister Dawn, You and a lot of other people. So

254
00:14:54,360 --> 00:15:00,600
Speaker 1: Don was introduced in what the fourth or fifth season? Fourth? Fifth? Fifth? Fifth? Okay, well,

255
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,880
Speaker 1: so I watched it up to that point, and I

256
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 1: even think I watched some of that season, but basically, like,

257
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 1: here's Caroline. It's the early two thousands. At this point,

258
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,360
Speaker 1: I'm in high school, and I'm like, yeah, I'm tuning

259
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,040
Speaker 1: in for Buffy. And then I'm like, why is Michelle

260
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 1: Trachtenberg here? This is the worst? And then her character

261
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,040
Speaker 1: irritated me enough, and the fact that she was there

262
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,840
Speaker 1: as a sister all of a sudden annoyed me enough

263
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,520
Speaker 1: that I was like, I'm done. I'm done with this

264
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 1: entire show. Was it your only child status could be?

265
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,160
Speaker 1: I was like, who is this intruder? Who is this

266
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,480
Speaker 1: we don't share? Dowey Buffy. She she grows up a

267
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:38,680
Speaker 1: lot over the over the couple of years that she's

268
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 1: on the show, and and becomes i would say, probably

269
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:49,120
Speaker 1: the most strongly feminist character by the end of the series. Interesting. So,

270
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 1: speaking of the character's maturity, one thing that just occurred

271
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,200
Speaker 1: to me in terms of Buffy, who is obviously like

272
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,240
Speaker 1: wise beyond her years, and a lot of ways she's facing,

273
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 1: you know, some obstacles we probably don't usually when we're

274
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,760
Speaker 1: sixteen and seventeen, like you know, demons and such. Uh.

275
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 1: But she's still so grounded in her teenage ness, which

276
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,160
Speaker 1: is in stark contrast to the first character that comes

277
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 1: to mind who really aggravates me as like the the older,

278
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:29,600
Speaker 1: wiser teenage daughter in Casual this Hulu show if you've

279
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,280
Speaker 1: seen it, Um, she's the only daughter of a now

280
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:41,000
Speaker 1: single mom, and she's just so worldly wise to a

281
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 1: point where she kind of parents the parent and not

282
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 1: in a more innocent Rory Gilmore type of way towards

283
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 1: Laurel I, but really making her an adult, which could

284
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,400
Speaker 1: have easily been done with Buffy. But especially when it

285
00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 1: comes to her love life and her friendship ups and

286
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 1: even her relationship with Giles, they do such a good

287
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:10,359
Speaker 1: job with um keeping her teenage ness very believable. Yeah,

288
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,240
Speaker 1: and and hey have some of that innocence, even despite

289
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 1: all of the stuff that she goes through, Like at

290
00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,000
Speaker 1: her heart of hearts, she's just a girl who is

291
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,320
Speaker 1: becoming a woman who wants to have the experiences that

292
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,199
Speaker 1: all of her peers do and is mad that she

293
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,040
Speaker 1: doesn't get them. And and I think that all of us, like, like,

294
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,119
Speaker 1: I think that very huge fans of Buffy relate to

295
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,359
Speaker 1: that in whatever specific way. Um, but you know, whatever

296
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,680
Speaker 1: it is that that has happened in your life that

297
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,680
Speaker 1: you can relate to, like, oh, man, like I feel

298
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,800
Speaker 1: like part of my opportunity to be normal has been

299
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 1: taken away. And I think I can appreciate that they

300
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 1: don't try to just basically that they address it, that

301
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,639
Speaker 1: they allow her to be like, man, this sucks because

302
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,680
Speaker 1: she has the quote at one point of like this

303
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 1: isn't a job. I can just hang up at the

304
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 1: end of the day and then go snuggle with my honey.

305
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,679
Speaker 1: You know, there's no like running around with other you know,

306
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,679
Speaker 1: acquaintance type friends. And you have your core group of

307
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 1: friends who know who you are and what you are

308
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,640
Speaker 1: and what you do, and they're helping you on this journey,

309
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 1: and everyone else is probably a little bit scared of

310
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,439
Speaker 1: you and like just sort of wants to be over

311
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 1: there whenever you're around because some demon might come crashing

312
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,879
Speaker 1: through the wall. And for a brief layout of the

313
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,840
Speaker 1: Sunnydale High School universe where it starts and really what

314
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,320
Speaker 1: the first three four seasons take place. While they're still

315
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,560
Speaker 1: in high school. You have Buffy who shows up and

316
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,920
Speaker 1: she comes with a reputation. I mean, obviously she's super attractive,

317
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,680
Speaker 1: but everyone knows that she was transferred to the school

318
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,679
Speaker 1: because something had happened so and that thing was that

319
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 1: she burned her previous school's jim down while fighting demons,

320
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 1: you know, a good cause. Uh, And she befriends Willow

321
00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,680
Speaker 1: and Xander Um who Xander, by the way, is really

322
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 1: just a young Chandler Bang. Yes, I'm so glad you

323
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 1: said that. I have always thought that, Yeah, he's a

324
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 1: young Chandler. I like him more than Chandler, but he

325
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 1: has a very Chandler. Yeah, we'll affect he does. He's

326
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,359
Speaker 1: such a oh I have a problem with Xander Harris, y'all,

327
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 1: we'll get to Xander. We'll get to Xander. So we

328
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 1: we have Willow and Xander, who are the outcasts. And

329
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 1: I also appreciate buffis befriending of Willow in particular, but

330
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: both Willow and Xander, because of course, and Ander sees

331
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 1: Buffy and is like a hobble hobble um. And Buffy

332
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,679
Speaker 1: is like, no, bro, let's just be friends and it

333
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,399
Speaker 1: all and that ends up working out. But and Willow

334
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 1: is so kind of taken aback that Buffy would even

335
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 1: want to hang out with her. Just such a relatable

336
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 1: high school emotion. I know. Yeah, well, I mean especially

337
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 1: you know, Buffy is very stylish. She's from another city,

338
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 1: she I mean, she's from l A. She's coming into

339
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 1: this small town. And Willow is just like my mom

340
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,200
Speaker 1: shops at sears for me. I don't know why you're

341
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,159
Speaker 1: looking at me. You're so nice, so sweet. And then Xander,

342
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: of course, also has a crush on the uber popular

343
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: brunette Cordelia. Cordelia Chase. Oh man, what a perfect name,

344
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 1: by the way, right, Cordelia Chase. And at the beginning,

345
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,280
Speaker 1: she is the queen bee of all the popular cheerleader

346
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: types and the jocks. And then of course you have

347
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 1: a school librarian, Giles, Giles the Watcher, and we know

348
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 1: he's smart because he speaks with a British accent. Yes,

349
00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 1: I love Giles, I love Giles. Yeah. It's his whole

350
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: deal to sort of be the mentor to the group,

351
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 1: but specifically obviously to Buffy as the Watcher. And he

352
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,360
Speaker 1: comes from what the council. What is it called, the council,

353
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 1: The Watchers Council. There, there you go. It's simple name. Um, yeah,

354
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 1: that the Watchers Council, which was constructed in order to

355
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,439
Speaker 1: watch over and train slayers as as they are called,

356
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,160
Speaker 1: because every time a slayer dies, a new one is called.

357
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,440
Speaker 1: They're usually pretty confused about how they can like punch

358
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: through doors. Now, so some white guy with a British

359
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 1: accent comes and goes like, well, you have this obligation

360
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 1: to not just punch through doors because you like it,

361
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: but to punch through doors because vampires are on the

362
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 1: other side, and you need to kill them. And then

363
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: in the vampire realm, the main vampires you gotta know

364
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: are Angel, who is a vampire with a soul, which

365
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 1: means he's hunky, which means he's hunky, and he and

366
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 1: Buffy love each other. Oh man, yeah, they're They're sexual

367
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 1: attention is pretty great. Can I just say that, like,

368
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,360
Speaker 1: I so distinctly, even though my brain has no space

369
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: for Joyce, apparently, I so distinctly remember the sex scene

370
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:51,199
Speaker 1: between Buffy and Angel when he experiences true happiness and

371
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: therefore loses his soul. Although I do want to say

372
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 1: a really lovely thing about that was that his moment

373
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 1: of true happiness was not his orgas him. It was

374
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: when they were snuggling together afterwards. I didn't remember that,

375
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: so see Angel, I only partially clearly remembered it them. Well,

376
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's kind of a subtle thing. I

377
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 1: might have thought about this a lot, because because it's

378
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: problematic as heck, it's it's so problematic that that having

379
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: sex with this person that she loved made him turn

380
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: into a bad person. Yeah, but we'll we will, because

381
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 1: all your faiths are problematic. Of course. Also, I want

382
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,840
Speaker 1: to point out that I'm wearing a clotter right now

383
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,439
Speaker 1: because of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I love it so much. So.

384
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: In addition to everyone's favorite vampire boyfriend Angel, you have

385
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 1: on the more evil side Drusilla, who, by the way,

386
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,919
Speaker 1: is now following stuff. Mom never told you on Twitter,

387
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,239
Speaker 1: I think because we mentioned Buffy in a tweet and

388
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: she follows a lot of people, but I still felt

389
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: pretty special. Yeah, so hello, Drusilla, if you're listening, I

390
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 1: don't think she follows me. That's great, well do it? Yeah,

391
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: that would be amazing if she were listening. Uh. And

392
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 1: she and Spike the Evil Vampire are in cahoots too,

393
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: really just what tear up the world? Rain evil? And

394
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: she was made a vampire by Angel Yes Drusilla, Wait,

395
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: yeah he tortured her when when she was pre vampire? Yes?

396
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: Yes her and yeah because dar Darla sired Angel. Darla

397
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: is is another vampire UM and actually one of the

398
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: first characters that you see at the very beginning of

399
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: the series UM. The first ever episode opens on on

400
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: a big old dude leading a perky looking young lady

401
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: down a hallway, and then the young lady vamps and

402
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 1: it's Darla and she kills the dude. See, I had

403
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: forgotten about Darla, and when we were talking about she

404
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 1: kind of she's not around very long, right, Um now,

405
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: she kind of comes in and out and she she

406
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: dies of syphilis or something, right she vampirest I wait,

407
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: what am I thinking of? She has syphilis? I think

408
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: I read that she has she has Angels vampire baby,

409
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: and then something else happens. I don't remember. I knew

410
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: she had syphilis before she became a vampire because she

411
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 1: was as she was a prostitute. Okay, ye see we're

412
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: all learning things together as well as educating our listeners. Yeah.

413
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: So a Spike, Spike and Drusilla have a have a

414
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: very loving, bizarre, wonderful relationship. Um and and they kind

415
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: of get back together with with Angel, much to Angel's consternation.

416
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: And they get back together with Angel or Angelus as

417
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: he turns into, largely because of Jenny Callendar, which is

418
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 1: the fakest sounding name I've ever heard. So, Jenny Callendar

419
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 1: is a substitute teacher. Is she the sister of Marie

420
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: Calendar who makes the pop pies different calendar She's like

421
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: like months and weeks calendar even faker eating much faker. Yeah. Well,

422
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 1: and as it turns out, Jenny Callendar is fake as well. Yes.

423
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: Why why is Jenny Callendar fake? Well, because she's the

424
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,880
Speaker 1: the dual Virgin and Horror who is set up to

425
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: come in and destroy like like lie to everyone and

426
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: destroy their lives by removing this by messing with Angel.

427
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: I don't I don't remember the plot reason. So Jenny Callendar,

428
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: if that is her real name, which it is not,

429
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: is a so called gypsy her words not mine um

430
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: and Angel apparently terrorized her people way back in the day.

431
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: And why he has a soul because he was cursed

432
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: with a soul right by them, and so they placed

433
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 1: this curse on him and if he ever experienced true happiness,

434
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: then his soul would be taken away, so he would

435
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: experience like ultimate pain. So Jenny Callendar comes to school

436
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: and she's like, oh, there's a British librarian. He's cool.

437
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: What are these Scooby Doo like kids doing? Hanging out

438
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: solving mysteries? And she kind of becomes one of the

439
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 1: gang for a while, and of course she and Giles,

440
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: you know, start making eyes at each other. But of

441
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: course she's also a technomanswer. Don't forget about that amazing word.

442
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: What like, I'm gonna not know what she's a she's

443
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: a techno answer, She's a she's a Internet which like

444
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: a ciberboy, I'm gonna need even more information because of

445
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: her quote unquote gypsy powers. She she's into magic and

446
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: more like reading about magic and like internet forums. I

447
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: don't know. She there's some really amazing clunky use of

448
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: technology terms. Yeah, show and she's she's she's She's comes

449
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: on the show as Willows computer teacher. Oh right, right,

450
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: because Willow is in the first season on this massive

451
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: traveling trunk size desktop tippy typing away, making her Guicity's page,

452
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: just like Young Caroline with that doing some some dogpile

453
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: searches for vampires finding things out. But Jenny Callender though

454
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: she is super important because she's getting all comfortable at

455
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: sunny Dale and wants to be all nice and stuff.

456
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: But then her again quote unquote, gipsy uncle comes back

457
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 1: and he's like, Jenny Gellender, you almost you almost enforced

458
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: the curse. So she does and that turns angel into

459
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: Angela's which leads to the second well after the sex scene,

460
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: um that we're going to talk about in a second,

461
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: which leads us to sort of this bigger question that

462
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure everyone listening is wondering when we're gonna get to,

463
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: is the feminism of the show, Because Buffy always comes

464
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: up as like the most feminist television show ever, and

465
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: she's the most feminist character ever aside from maybe Hannah

466
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: Horvath on Girls j K. I'm just kidding. And Lauren,

467
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: we're going to get your expert insight on the feminism

468
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: of Josh Weeden and Buffy the Vampire Slayer when we

469
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: get right back from a quick break. So, I mean, Lauren,

470
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: you're an expert with Buffy, and so I have to

471
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: ask you because there's so much controversy around not only

472
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: the feminism of the show, but also just Wheeden's feminism

473
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: or lack thereof, So like I have to ask, I mean,

474
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: what do you think about that all of all of it? Is?

475
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: Is it a feminist show? Is Josh Weeden a feminist?

476
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: And I have a follow up question to that, is

477
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: it is there a controversy over it? Is there anyone

478
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: who would say no over some questionable elements of the

479
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: show and also some questionable things that Josh Weeden has said, Yeah,

480
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: there's like, like you said earlier, like all all your

481
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: favors are problematic, and it's okay to like problematic things,

482
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: and it's okay to hold up certain parts of of

483
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: what of of of what you love and to kind

484
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: of like just be aware of the other parts and

485
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: go like, well, it's it's real weird that, for example,

486
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: two of the times that that Buffy has sex, she

487
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: is super shamed for it by not only the dude

488
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: but all of her friends. Um. That's crappy. Uh, it's

489
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: also realistic, and I think that that's why the show

490
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: did it. I don't think that the show is holding

491
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,239
Speaker 1: that behavior up as laudable certainly, Um, but it was.

492
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: It was something that women go through, and especially women

493
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: of that age. Yeah, I gotta say that. I watched

494
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: the episode where Buffy and Angel sleep together for the

495
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: first time for the first time, just a couple of

496
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: days ago, and even watching it as a thirty one

497
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: year old, it was like the feelings she was going

498
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: through a very reminiscent of situations I found myself in

499
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: of of suddenly you go to sleep with Angel and

500
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: wake up with an with angelous and uh, and so

501
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: I in a way I appreciated that honesty, but I

502
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: can absolutely see why it does seem problematic, especially when

503
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: years down the line when she's dating this kind of

504
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: rando Parker who there's really nothing that's special about him

505
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: um and they sleep together and he turns it into

506
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: a jerk again, right yeah, which I which I think

507
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: is meant to mirror what happened between her and Angel

508
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: and Buffy just having to have that moment of like,

509
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: it's not just demons. Sometimes it's just dudes. Sometimes it's

510
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: just people. Sometimes people can suck as much as demons.

511
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: And it's not that he is a demon, it's just

512
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: that he's not nice. I'm really asking is because I

513
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: don't know it does it kind of serve to reinforce

514
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: the fact that, like, hey, Buffy, you don't have time

515
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: for this stuff, Like do you think it's it's to

516
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: help direct her back to like, don't get lost in

517
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: all of this dating crap. You've got to save the world. Yeah.

518
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: I think that that's largely the point of season four

519
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: of Buffy. That's the season in which she goes on

520
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: to have a relationship with Riley Um after she has

521
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: this kind of flame with Parker and uh and and

522
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: in the notes like you you put Riley parentheses. Uh

523
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: uh uh uh and I laughed out loud at my

524
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: desk and startled. Absolutely no one because there's no one

525
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: here today. But but but but yeah. Throughout season four,

526
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: she it's her trying to have that normal college relationship

527
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: experience and to be a good girlfriend and she's not.

528
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: Um and the dude leaves at the end and all

529
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: of us rejoiced because he was terrible and that plotline sucked.

530
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: But but but yeah, I think that that's the point

531
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: that she realizes, like, I I have to live for me.

532
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: I can base my life around these dudes. And of

533
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: course she has other lovers and it gets complicated and messy,

534
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: But I think that overall, the message about her relationships

535
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: with guys is that is that you have to do

536
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: you like like and that doesn't it doesn't matter whether

537
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 1: you're a dude or a lady or or whatever else

538
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: you identify as. It's it's just a human element of

539
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: of needing to put yourself first. But does that also

540
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: hold for her relationship with Spike, which a lot of

541
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: people point out as a problematic to use that term again,

542
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: relationship because of its dynamic. Uh, it's it's extremely violent

543
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: dynamic in which the first time that they have sex,

544
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: they literally bring a house down around them. Yeah. Um,

545
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: and and in which they they are frequently not nice

546
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: to each other. She she refuses to acknowledge to her

547
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: friends and family that they're together. Um, which is terrible.

548
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: Even if you are dating a demon, that's just not

549
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 1: a cool thing to do. Quote of the episode. I

550
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: don't know I've dated. I've dated plenty of demon bartenders

551
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: who I didn't acknowledge to my family. Well, I mean

552
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: eventually it becomes a thing, like I mean, like once

553
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: over over a certain period of time. I don't know

554
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: how long were they dating or quote unquote dating a

555
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: long time, like the better part of a season at least. Yeah,

556
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: but so and and one of the one of the

557
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: problems that I that I think you're you're trying to

558
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: bring the conversation around to here is is a h

559
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: critical moment in the show where Spike engages in non

560
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: consensual sexual contact with Buffy. Um. It doesn't go as

561
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: far as as him raping her, and it's unclear to

562
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: his character at the time that it's not the normal

563
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: banter that they have when they have sex um and

564
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: it becomes a turning point for Spike. That is the

565
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: moment when Spike goes, oh no, this me not having

566
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: a soul thing is a problem. I want to be

567
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: a better person. I want to be a better person

568
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: for this woman and for her family. So I'm going

569
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: to go out and get myself either get myself a

570
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: soul or die trying. So how does he get one?

571
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: There's trials. He like beats up a demon or something,

572
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: so he didn't go out and get a curse. No, Well,

573
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,760
Speaker 1: and then he also becomes very protective over Dawn and always.

574
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: Buffett briefly dies spoiler alert, Yeah, she like sacrifices herself right, Yeah,

575
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: it's a second time in the series that she dies.

576
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: But cool when when in all of this, the Spike

577
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: build a Buffy bot so he can technically have sex

578
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: with Buffy but anytime he wants to like that was

579
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: that was an episode that I'm gonna need some details this.

580
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah that this is one of the three episodes that

581
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: I reckon mended. Y'all watch for for its like gender

582
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: troops and stuff, because Spike is obsessed. But before before

583
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: they start hooking up, he is obsessed with Buff. Okay,

584
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: so this is pre hook This is prior to the hookup. Yeah,

585
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: and he he has this like love hate thing going on,

586
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: and he has such a boner for her. Can I

587
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: say that on the show? Can go for our owners? Great? Um?

588
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: And uh? And he goes to this dude in town

589
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: who he knows has previously built a sex spot because

590
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: that happens. Um uh And he says, hey, I need

591
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: I need you to make a Buffy Bot or I'm

592
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: going to kill you because I'm a vampire, So you

593
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: should go ahead and do that. And and that that

594
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: dude is Warren, who becomes a villain later on in

595
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: the show. Um and and yeah, um, you know that's creepy.

596
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 1: That's that I mean, I guess it's but I guess

597
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: you could contextualize that too with this is Spike pre

598
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: realizing that his soul is a problem, Like Spike has

599
00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: no morality, right And and also I guess it's better

600
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: than just continuing to hit on Buffy when she doesn't

601
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 1: want that attention. And buffy Bot was very consensual. She loved,

602
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: she did love. She was programmed to love having sex

603
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: with Spikes. I don't know why I'm really trying to like, uh,

604
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 1: justify sex bots. But you like them bad boys. It's

605
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: it's like those bad bots. Oh no, um, I don't know.

606
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: I found buffy Bot in a way endearing because because

607
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,399
Speaker 1: I was just like, oh, Spike, all all you want

608
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: is someone to love you. You just want someone like

609
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 1: a Japanese body pillow, except a robot that looks like

610
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: your enemy. Yeah, well, I gotta have a thing. I

611
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: kind of like Buffy Bot too, just like her her character,

612
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: and she comes back and she's she is helpful yea

613
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: at certain Buffy. But yeah, well they they take buffy

614
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: Bot away from Spike and Willow just like keeps her

615
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 1: in a basement somewhere because because the machinery is really interesting,

616
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: so to speak. Cool. All right, That's all I need

617
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,959
Speaker 1: to know. So circling back to Giles, then let's also

618
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: talk about this relationship, which some people also find a

619
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: little bit problematic. In fact, Natasha Simon's over at the

620
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 1: Mary Sue calls it quote the male gaze made manifest

621
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 1: because arguably he's this paternalistic figure who is protecting Buffy.

622
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: But you said you love him. I do love him.

623
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm just asking about the relationship. I think that ultimately

624
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: it's a positive one that they both learn a lot from.

625
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: And and I don't think I don't think it's bad

626
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: to have a paternalistic relationship. I mean because when when

627
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: it turns out to be positive like that when uh, eventually,

628
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: through the course of the show, Giles gains a lot

629
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: of respect for for Buffy, realizes that she's the leader

630
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: of the group that he is not um and and

631
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: becomes a follower and a friend to her and uh,

632
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: And it goes through a lot of wrinkles on the show,

633
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: which which is really interesting to me, where he um

634
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: he bosses everyone around and is and it's like like

635
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: terrible father and leaves his absent father and then comes

636
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: back and and is terrible again. Um, and he's he's

637
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: a very human character. And I don't I have I

638
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: have zero problems with Rupert Giles. Yeah, I side eyed

639
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: the concept of him being the male gays made manifest

640
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: because it's a two way relationship. It's not like he

641
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: is lording over Buffy in some way like in the

642
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: very beginning of the first season as they're kind of

643
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: establishing their dynamic. Okay, but even where Giles is super

644
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: book smart and can be kind of a knowe it

645
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: all sometimes, like Buffy also is very helpful for him,

646
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: even just like emotionally, not in the sense of slaying vampires. Yeah,

647
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 1: the Watcher's Council is set up to be that that

648
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 1: male gaze personified, that paternalistic in a bad way, kind

649
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: of creepy thing. Uh, But it's partially due to Giles

650
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: character that that he has lived beyond that, that he

651
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: that he is more trusting and generous with h with

652
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: with his power, with with the power that Buffy has

653
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 1: um that that let Buffy become what she does. So

654
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really reversal of the trope, like like,

655
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: this is a character who is meant to be that

656
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: in other shows would have been that, but on this

657
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: show was not. Well, what about Xander? So, like, you know,

658
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: we've talked about several of the male characters, and a

659
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: lot of what I read about Xander doesn't discuss him

660
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: from the point of view of him being like the funny,

661
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: sarcast like Chandler Bang of the show, which is kind

662
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: of how I always thought about him. But when you

663
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: go back and read about him in context, he sounds

664
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: terrible and so could you refresh my memory about some

665
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 1: of that stuff. Yeah, this is actually this is actually

666
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: going to also answer the question of yours that I

667
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: did not answer earlier, which is, do I think that

668
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: Josh Weeden is a feminist or a good enough feminist

669
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: if we can ever any any of us the feminist? Um?

670
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: So so so Xander Harris um is clearly a a

671
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: merry sue character for Josh Weeden, I think, um, but

672
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: by which I mean like, he is the stand in

673
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: for that writer creator. Um. He's he's that writer creator's

674
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: voice on the show. Um, the awkward, nice guy who

675
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: messes up and has terrible consequences that he has never

676
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: actually called to call to blame for because he's the

677
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: stand in for the show creator. Um. Xander Harris. At

678
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: various points in the first couple of seasons, UM very

679
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: rare very nearly rapes Buffy when he is possessed by

680
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: a demon. It turns out that he remembers that, and

681
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: he gets off like like Buffy is just like, oh

682
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: you were you were possessed by a demon. Everything is

683
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: super chill, and Xander's like, I'm just not going to

684
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: tell her that I remember everything, and I'm like, hold

685
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: up what Okay? When Buffy and angel have their final confrontation,

686
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: Buffy and a jealous rather uh, Xander's jealousy is what

687
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: leads to Buffy needing to kill a jealous Xander chooses

688
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: not to tell Buffy that there is a better way

689
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: to do it, that there is a possibility that Willow

690
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 1: could come through with a spell to make to make

691
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: the death unnecessary, but he chooses not to do it,

692
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: and that is why Angelous goes to hell. And is

693
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: that why you hate Xander? I'm mad about that one? Um?

694
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: He uh? Well, I mean I'm mad. I'm mad about that,

695
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: and I'm mad that no one on the show ever

696
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: calls him on that. I guess I'm at at everyone

697
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: around him. And yet he gets too secretly cannodal with Cordelia. Yeah,

698
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: and then whole all, I'm just having so many memories. Okay,

699
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: I'm so mad about things, mad with a y yes?

700
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,399
Speaker 1: Um okay, so so yeah. So so Xander then gets

701
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: to hook up with Cordelia, and once he's with Cordelia,

702
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: he starts looking back at Willow, who's had a crush

703
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: on him for her entire life, and then he starts

704
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: going oh, well, now that now that Willows in a

705
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: relationship and I'm in a relationship, maybe my I can

706
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: I can have feelings for Willow too, And so he

707
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: instigates them both cheating on their partners at the time.

708
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: Also is never never really, I mean I guess that one,

709
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: like he has some consequences for Cordelia definitely leaves him

710
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: and is like nope, never again. And Willow's boyfriend Oz

711
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: the werewolf, yeah, also gets very upset and doesn't he

712
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 1: leave town after that? Yeah? Okay, Well, and uh see

713
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: Smith is not a fan of how Cordelia leaves. She

714
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: feels like Cordelia ended up being disposable, although on on

715
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: the back side of things, like she was going to

716
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 1: the spin off Angel, So yeah, that that was a

717
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: that was a show choice, not a not a character choice.

718
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 1: And Cordelia is such a such an interesting character, I

719
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: think because she's I think she's a representation of what

720
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: Buffy would have been if she had not been given

721
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: these powers, and so every time that she's shallow or horrible, uh,

722
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 1: it's it's a cautionary tale. But that's interesting though, because

723
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: you're saying that Xanders, the stand in for the show

724
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: creator and here's the super popular, gorgeous woman who still

725
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: has these moments where the audience is thinking, like, God,

726
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: you're such a dits. But she's the one that ends

727
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: up with I mean, until she leaves ends up with Sander.

728
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: Oh and she's also she's also not a total dits.

729
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: There's a great moment towards the end of season three

730
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: where they're all getting their s A T scores back

731
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: and it's revealed that Cordelia is actually in the top

732
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: ten percent of their graduating class. And and I think

733
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: her line is like, what, I can't have layers? Well,

734
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: and she's also very cool under pressure. Oh yeah, yeah.

735
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: She turns out to be a very useful member of

736
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: the team, like partially because of like hairspray and whatever.

737
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: But she has a car. She's the only one of them. Yeah,

738
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: you gotta have a friend with the car. And I

739
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: can agree with that. I get so much frizz she

740
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: she turns into a very much more interesting character on

741
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: On Angel after some also extraordinarily problematic things happened. Um,

742
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: And I'm also interested in your point of view on

743
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: some of like the slash fiction, because there is a

744
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: lot based on Buffy and Faith Eliza Dish Goose character,

745
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: people like really wanted them to end up together. They

746
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: said that Faith basically who's like the the dark side

747
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: version of Buffy, she looks like Jessica Jones kind of

748
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: that like these two women are just better when they're together,

749
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: that they should, they should be together, Buffy should so

750
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: naturally they should make out. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot

751
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: of yeah, a lot of push for that. I think

752
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: that of all the characters on the show that like

753
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: possibly wanted to make out with each other, Buffy and

754
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: Faith are really low on the list. Like I'm not

755
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: going to say that I've never encountered that fiction, but

756
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: I've always just gone like, well, like why why that thing?

757
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: And I guess it's because their attractive human people and

758
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: they're both Slayers who are who are also in like

759
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: close physical contact with each other but in a fighty way,

760
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: which is which is sexy or something? Um, I don't know. Well,

761
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: And speaking of female sexuality, though, we do have Tara

762
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: and Willow's relationship, which not the very first lesbian relationship

763
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: on TV, but one of and especially on such a

764
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: mainstream show, and I believe it's like the first positive

765
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: and long time recurring lesbian relationship on TV. Yeah, and

766
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: that also was dynamic and changed over the course of

767
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: time as a Willow. Willow's addiction to magic is a

768
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: very clear metaphor for addiction to drugs, and she goes

769
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: through in season six. I believe, um, this this long

770
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: arc of of addiction and problematic relationship with Tara. As

771
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: she's lying to Tara about this addiction of hers, she

772
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: winds up using magic to erase Tara's memories about some

773
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: of the fights that they're having. And and I thought

774
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: that it was really nice to see a lesbian relationship

775
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: portrayed as as such a human relationship. Um. Yeah, it

776
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: seemed pretty clear that it wasn't there for shock value

777
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: or to be sellation or titilation. Yeah. Josh Sweden chose

778
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,720
Speaker 1: um that the first moment that they kiss on screen

779
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: to be uh spoiler alert, Um, the during the episode

780
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: where Joyce Buffy's mother has just died, and it's it's

781
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: a it's a moment where Tara, like like Willow, is

782
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: just freaking out and Tear just takes her face in

783
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 1: her hands and kisses her in like the most gentle,

784
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: comforting way possible. And uh, and I and I and

785
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: I read that or heard one way or another that

786
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: that was so much on purpose to to take all

787
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: of this sexual sexuality out of it, to take all

788
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: of the salaciousness out of it. Um. One thing though,

789
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: that you do not see on the show, and this

790
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,959
Speaker 1: does hearken back to our Gilmour Girls conversation while back,

791
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: is that there is nary a person of color really ever.

792
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: I think the only aside from extras maybe in in

793
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: the background halls at Sunnydale High, not really The first

794
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: person of color, especially woman of color with a speaking

795
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: role that I remember seeing on the show is in

796
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: the episode when way later in season six, No five,

797
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: Season five, Buffy goes out into the desert to have

798
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,959
Speaker 1: a vision. She's on like basically like on a vision quest.

799
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: The Giles takes her out for she finally gets it

800
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 1: and her vision becomes this uh woman of color who

801
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: has like very tribal esque face paint on. Is that

802
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: the first Layer? Yeah? Yeah, because she that woman comes

803
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: back in her dreams in season seven. Okay, so the

804
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: first Layer, And as she's dancing around the fire, I

805
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 1: was just thinking, oh, oh my, oh wow, it's super problematic.

806
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: It's it's angrifying. There was a woman of color with

807
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 1: a speaking role or earlier on the show, um, one

808
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: of the other slayers, Kendra played by Biancle Lawson, who

809
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: whose character I believe was from Jamaica or Haiti maybe

810
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: and had this very over the top at the actress

811
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: has an American accent, but she was coached into this

812
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,840
Speaker 1: very weird sounding accent that I'm not positive that she

813
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: was performing well. Uh. And there were all of these

814
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: strange racial stereotypes, um surrounding her and it wasn't very

815
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: complimentary and like like mostly about like like her her

816
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: culture being uh kind of backwoods, Oh totally well. And

817
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: then with the first Slayer, you get a similar kind

818
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: of thing of the woman of color being very exotic

819
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: sized and primitive. Yeah and and authentic um and uh.

820
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: Later later in the series, in the seventh season, a

821
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other potential slayers come into the show

822
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: from all over the world due to specific plot reasons.

823
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: And and they are even then, even at the seventh

824
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: season of the show, when it has been on for

825
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: so long, still treated as as token people of color. Yeah,

826
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 1: there was like one black woman, Like you would think

827
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: that when slayers are showing up from all over the world,

828
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: not just the ones fine, and I think was there

829
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 1: one age and a woman. Yeah, there was a Chinese

830
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: woman I believe, who doesn't speak any English and is like,

831
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: it's a huge joke that she's lectose, intolerant. I don't know,

832
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 1: it's it's really it's really bad. There's plenty of villains

833
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: who are people of color. Yeah, but this also, I mean,

834
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: if you and this is not to take the show

835
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: off the hook, but it is helpful to remember that

836
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: during this time, with shows like Dawson's Creek, Buffy, Gilmore Girls,

837
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: all of these incredibly popular shows were so completely white.

838
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 1: They were just one and white almost um. So it

839
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:45,760
Speaker 1: is good to see that at least now, um, characters

840
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: of color are not as completely rendered invisible or tokenized

841
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: to the same degree that they were. And I would

842
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: think that if Josh Weeden were making the show today

843
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: that he would not pete that I would. I would

844
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: I would hope that's that's one of the things that

845
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 1: that that's one of the criticisms that is frequently lobbied

846
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: against Jesse Weeden. And I mean, you know, I don't

847
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: I don't know the dude, all I all I know

848
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: is the media that he has put out, and and

849
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: he has a pretty consistent rate of not including people

850
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: of color on his shows, and when he does, having

851
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: some just real awkward stuff around, you know, like the

852
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: one black guy on Angel is from the hood and

853
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: likes the basketball and stuff like that, and it's sort

854
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: of like a dude, um there. There's one interesting moment

855
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: in season seven that where Buffy is speaking to the

856
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: new principle of the high school and and he is

857
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: a black guy and uh, and he says something about

858
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: about his youth and and like and like rough times

859
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 1: or something like that, and and she says, awkwardly for

860
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: the show's purpose on purpose, oh because you're from the street,

861
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: And he says, I'm from a street, not like the street.

862
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: Such an odd choice. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, Like,

863
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: did you just make your main character real racist on purpose?

864
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: Like is that what? Just? And then like I mean

865
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: at least the dude like called her on it, like

866
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: that's cool. Yeah, yeah, Ish. So I mean it seems like,

867
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, Joss Weeden feminist, sure, but maybe it

868
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 1: needs to work on some intersectionality. I would certainly say

869
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 1: that that is the case. UM. And in terms of

870
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: in terms of the show's overall feminism though, I think

871
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: it's undaniably feminist if you look at the structure of

872
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: the slayage and how the first Slayer was put in

873
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: that position, and the whole dynamic between these female slayers

874
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: and the Watcher's Council and all of the patriarchal overtones,

875
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: and then when you have in the final season the

876
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: arrival of Caleb, who really is the patriarchy embodied and

877
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: kind of the ultimate big bad Yeah. Yeah, he's just

878
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 1: a walking demon m r A. It's it's really really

879
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: ridiculous and over the top and wonderful UM also played

880
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: by Nathan Phillion, who is another Jaw Sueden favorite cast member.

881
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: But so is that a redemptive ending then, because I

882
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: know some people were dissatisfied with the final season, although

883
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,240
Speaker 1: there a final season of any show that people love, UM,

884
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 1: it seems like that that puts a final point on

885
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: the whole thing of like, yeah, if in case you

886
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: hadn't been getting it for the past seven seasons, I mean,

887
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: I'm speaking as jos Waeden. Yeah, this is what this

888
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: show UM. A brief riendown of what goes on in

889
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: season seven, the bad Guys literally blow up the Watchers

890
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: Council spoilers, Yeah, I'm sorry, um uh literally blow up

891
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: the patriarchy that Buffy has been living in. Um. And

892
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: then this new version, this new, scarier version of the

893
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: patriarchy embodied by Caleb shows up, and then she just

894
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: kills the heck out of him. Um, And and then

895
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: realizes that that she cannot be she cannot be a

896
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: typical male leader. She cannot be a masculine force. That

897
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,959
Speaker 1: is Oh goodness, it's it's so it's so problematic trying

898
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 1: to even describe a woman in that kind of position

899
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: of power that Buffy comes into by the end of

900
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: the series. Um. So I'm like so bossy and brassy. Um.

901
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 1: I think authoritarian is a word that comes up a lot. Okay, yes, um,

902
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 1: that that she cannot be an authoritarian leader, that she

903
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: needs the help of her of her friends, and that

904
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: she needs um to allow herself to be emotional and

905
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: tender and loved, and and that is how in the

906
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: end she uh destroys the bad guys and saves the world,

907
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: and she passes along her slaying to all the potentials.

908
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: So it becomes like the feminine community, the sisterhood, and

909
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: and furthermore, her her boyfriend, who is the feminine partner

910
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 1: in their relationship, sacrifices himself in order for her to

911
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: get her job done, which is problematic in its own way.

912
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 1: The number of lady partners in relationships like like the

913
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: the fem partner, the fem partners that die in Josh

914
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: Weeden relationships is all of them, and that is real weird.

915
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: I don't like that one. So people, regardless of whether

916
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: they are male or female, if their partner is more feminine,

917
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: they tend His characters tend to kick the bucket. The

918
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: feminine one is the one that dies in order to

919
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: progress the masculine one. Storyline interesting. I mean, here's the

920
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: thing when it comes to conversations around Josh Sweden and feminism,

921
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:57,840
Speaker 1: and I'm saying, this is someone who is not a

922
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: weed and die hard. Not that I don't him, I'm

923
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 1: just not. I have not consumed all of his content

924
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 1: to put it in digital media terms, but to me

925
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: as more of an outsider looking in, I wonder what

926
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: the point of kind of placing this feminist mantle upon

927
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: his shoulders really is, because it turns into this question

928
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: not of is Josh Weeden of feminist because like Beyonce,

929
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 1: he says he's a feminist, but there are things kind

930
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: of like Beyonce where I don't know, I don't know,

931
00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 1: I mean, is he really good enough of that? And

932
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:31,919
Speaker 1: that's where that's where you lose me, where I'm like, really,

933
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: that's not the point exactly. And I'm glad you said

934
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: that because that takes me back to the episode that

935
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: you and I did on Beyonce where we were having

936
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 1: the exact same conversation of like why do people need

937
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: to ask I asked you whether he was a feminist

938
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 1: for a very specific reason, and that is because in

939
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: our Beyonce episode, I brought up the point of like

940
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: there will be other feminists, there will be other cupcakes,

941
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 1: as I think what I said, and that just I

942
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: was trying to give the example of how I like,

943
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, don't I won't let myself get every single

944
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 1: cupcake that comes into the office. People want to have

945
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: that pop cultural powerful force that comes in and like

946
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: eradicates problematic media. And I think when you start to

947
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: give an indication of like, hey, I'm feminist, I get it,

948
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna promote powerful women and show these great

949
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: images on screen. I think that there is a degree

950
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: out among the masses of like, oh yes, thank you all,

951
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: thank God finally and see the perfect cupcake. You will

952
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: be the cupcake to end all other cupcakes. I will

953
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: never need another one. And so then when someone makes

954
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: a creative decision or just a human choice that is human,

955
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: or makes a mistake or whatever, I think it's that

956
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 1: much it can be that much easier to criticize, but

957
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: also it can be that much more painful for the

958
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: people who were depending on that person to be the

959
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: end all be all feminists, rather than just exercising our

960
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: own media literally see and selectiveness as we as we

961
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: so choose as feminist consumers. It's shortsighted into me, frankly,

962
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: a waste of energy to conflate a celebrity feminist, which

963
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: both Weed and Beyonce are. How Beyonce they ended up

964
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: in this conversation, I don't know, by the way, but

965
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: I'm totally fine with it, um. But to conflate that

966
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: with not problematic whatsoever, Like there's there's this unnecessarily high bar.

967
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: I think that we sometimes establish for uh feminists where yes,

968
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: people should be held accountable for their actions. But to

969
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 1: presume that feminism means ethically perfect, right, you're setting yourself

970
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: up for a disappointment. Yeah, we're all human, and we're

971
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: all learning and and and certainly in people were still

972
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: learning and and there's been so much excellent, uh, just

973
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: public discourse about how to portray how to portray human people,

974
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 1: women and men and everything um on the screen. And

975
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: I think that Buffy has been an undeniable progression in

976
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: seeing different types of characters who who display different types

977
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: of genders um and and and sexualities in pop culture

978
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: and especially in pop culture specifically for young girls. And

979
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: one other thing I'm curious about from people like you,

980
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: who who are more well versed in the Weed and

981
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: Cannon and also weed and fandom, is this sense that

982
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: I have gotten over time that there's even more he

983
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: receives a lot more feminist gravitas because he's a man,

984
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:54,479
Speaker 1: and that if he were a female showrunner, like say

985
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: Shonda Rhimes, who's super feminist, there's usually a lot more

986
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: scrutiny I feel like applied to women using their platform,

987
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: or the dismissal that you're just making girl things for

988
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: girls totally because of course we want to give a

989
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: guy a round of applause if he is daring to

990
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 1: create a capital as strong female character. And I'm not

991
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: I'm not putting down what he did at all. I'm

992
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: more interested in how we uh, how we perceive that

993
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: a guy doing that differently than perceiving say again to

994
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: Shanna Rhymes, Shanna Rhymes creating Olivia Pope, who isn't extremely

995
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: strong female character, but it doesn't feel as daring because

996
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: she you know, it's a woman elevating a woman. Yeah.

997
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like I should just like

998
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: pull up Twitter quotes and and like and like quotes

999
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: and Twitter right now, because I there's such amazing conversation

1000
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: about that over there, and I'm happy for a lot

1001
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: of things that he's said. I I mean, we we

1002
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: need men like Weeden who are totally cool with not

1003
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: only talking the talk but also making feminist media. Yeah.

1004
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 1: I I do think that there are more props that

1005
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: are given to two guys who step into that conversation

1006
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: than than props are given to women for the same thing.

1007
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: Because yeah, because it's like, well, of course, of course

1008
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: you're you're talking about feminism, You're you're a lady human

1009
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 1: and so that's what you want to do. And like,

1010
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: has there has there been backlash against uh, the lady

1011
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: creator of Jessica Jones for um oh, I mean the

1012
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 1: comic book I believe was Brian Michael Bendis, but but

1013
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 1: the TV show was a female creator and she was

1014
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: one of the creators of the Twilight series of films. Um.

1015
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: Which is a really interesting flip to me in terms

1016
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: of how how the media that you were producing is

1017
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: dealing with with gender. Well. And that's interesting because from

1018
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: what I remember when it first came out, my Twitter

1019
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: feed was just full of praise, including my own tweets

1020
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: for Jessica Jones and how it was uh you know,

1021
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,439
Speaker 1: addressing rape and consent and all of these other factors um,

1022
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,439
Speaker 1: and also her just being a literally and figuratively strong

1023
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: female character. But it was more focused on the content

1024
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: rather than the creator so much. UM. And I again,

1025
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's because of gender, because there's a

1026
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: presumption that it's a bigger risk for Amand to step

1027
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: out and claim feminism, when in fact, I would argue

1028
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: the opposite, that was risk for a woman. Yeah, yeah,

1029
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: you've got Yeah, people are gonna not not necessarily, and

1030
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 1: I think it's changing, and I mean, I hope it's changing,

1031
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: but I do think people are like, oh, that is

1032
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: so nice of him to help those ladies out. They

1033
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: really needed a hand up, and that's strong man just

1034
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:49,600
Speaker 1: stepped right in and did that for them, And I

1035
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 1: just love him for that. It's a little he it's

1036
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: a little Xandery every now and then. Yeah. Yeah, And

1037
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:03,560
Speaker 1: I do think that we is worth addressing because Buffy

1038
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: has the staying power not only because of the show,

1039
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 1: but the entire culture that it created, the entire academic fields,

1040
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: the space that it has put out there to allow

1041
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 1: for for not for not only those kind of of

1042
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: women characters doing women stuff on on TV and in movies,

1043
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:26,720
Speaker 1: but um, but also the genre bending, the possibility that

1044
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: it opened up to to have really comedic, dramatic horror

1045
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,920
Speaker 1: that's super comic bookie and has like seven minute fight

1046
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: scenes for sometimes for like no real reason that anyone

1047
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 1: can discern. Especially the fight coordinators. Uh, sometimes they looked

1048
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: real bored. I've got to be honest, like they were.

1049
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: There were days on Buffy that I was like, oh, no,

1050
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: one was having a good time at this fake cemetery. Um,

1051
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: but uh, but no, it's it's fun and uh, and

1052
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 1: it has fun with what it's doing, and it's creators

1053
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: are men, and they're telling stories about human people. And

1054
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: I think that that we needed that so badly and

1055
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: it's crazy that we didn't have it. I I feel

1056
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: like it. It It brought a much deeper level of person

1057
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 1: ability to to television, especially and I can't think of

1058
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 1: a character before Buffy who was so sexy, nearly sexy,

1059
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 1: but not overly sexualized on the show. Yeah, and she did,

1060
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,439
Speaker 1: especially in seasons like one and two. She did wear

1061
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: like a lot of mini skirts and like like big

1062
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: old boots and stuff like that. But uh, but it

1063
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 1: was never like panti shots. I mean, it was like

1064
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 1: like the character was meant to be cute and sexy,

1065
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 1: but yeah, it was that was a function of her character,

1066
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 1: and I I honestly love that her character was allowed

1067
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 1: to be girly like that. Um, allowing someone to present

1068
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: their gender how they want to, because it's so unfeminist

1069
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: to say what a feminie ut is supposed to look like.

1070
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 1: One final question though, for you, does Buffy ever get

1071
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:13,439
Speaker 1: her period on the show? No? In the movie, it's

1072
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: a plot point. Um, in the movie, the way that

1073
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 1: Buffy knows when a vampire is near is she starts

1074
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 1: getting cramps. I could not make this up. I could

1075
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: not and one not joke about Buffy the Vampire Slayers cramps. Um.

1076
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: But I kind of love that. But no, I don't

1077
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,720
Speaker 1: think that. I don't think that any time in the

1078
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: entirety of that series did anyone u Xander. Xander at

1079
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: one point is going through Willow's bag looking for something,

1080
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: um and and it's just like you know, throwing like

1081
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: hair brushes and books and whatever, and like comes across

1082
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: a tampon and realizes what it is and goes and

1083
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 1: like tosses it. Um. But I think that's literally the

1084
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,959
Speaker 1: only time that periods ever come up on the show,

1085
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 1: which I feel like it's a thing that dude roommate

1086
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 1: would still do, throw your throw your tampons if he

1087
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: came across the tampon in a rapper. Yeah, Like I

1088
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:10,080
Speaker 1: feel like you would still be like, So that's not yeah,

1089
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: I don't that's another like that stinks, but it's realistic

1090
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: fashtag not all Sanders. Well, Lauren, thank you so much

1091
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 1: for coming on the show and sharing your wealth of

1092
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,880
Speaker 1: Buffy knowledge. Thank you so much for letting me sit

1093
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: here and and listening to me babble about Buffy. Most

1094
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: people aren't as interested when I start going into minor

1095
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:36,240
Speaker 1: plot points of a television show that ended over a

1096
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 1: decade ago. So it's delightful. And if there are listeners

1097
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,439
Speaker 1: who haven't seen Buffy and are intimidated by the fact

1098
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:46,920
Speaker 1: that there are seven seasons, it's a lot of cannonball

1099
01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 1: into Do you say, just start at the beginning or

1100
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 1: do you have any good like intro episode that you

1101
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,400
Speaker 1: would recommend, um or just one of your faves, one

1102
01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: of your all time favorite episodes. Oh goodness, there's too

1103
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: many of them. Um. I would say as a super

1104
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: fan that if if you want to understand everything that

1105
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 1: Buffy is about, there are callbacks to stuff that happens

1106
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: in season one at the end of season seven. So

1107
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 1: so starting at the beginning and honestly slogging through some

1108
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:18,040
Speaker 1: of the works in progress that this show was at

1109
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: that point is very rewarding. Um. Other than that, I'll

1110
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 1: try to I'll try to come up with something great,

1111
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 1: uh and and like a really pithy wrap up episode

1112
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: to to put on on social media. But I guess

1113
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:35,840
Speaker 1: I guess hush Um, which is a horror one off

1114
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: from season four is is a really good place to

1115
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: to kind of jump in and see. It's an unusual episode,

1116
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 1: but but it shows the depth and breadth of everyone's

1117
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: talents on the show and to keep people, including myself

1118
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 1: going because there's still stuff I need to watch. Do

1119
01:07:53,400 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 1: you have a favorite season? Oh uh, maybe maybe season three,

1120
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:06,960
Speaker 1: or maybe season five or maybe season six. Now I

1121
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: think season three or season five. Okay, it's like they're

1122
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: like both up there. Excellent. There's a lot of shirtless

1123
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 1: Spike in season five and I really can't recommend that enough. Yeah.

1124
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 1: One of my one of my best girlfriends was all

1125
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 1: about Spike in high school. I mentioned I was doing

1126
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,880
Speaker 1: this episode. She was like, oh, Spike, are you going

1127
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 1: to talk about Spike? Well, listeners, Buffy fans calling all

1128
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: y'all to the yard. What do y'all think about Buffy

1129
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 1: and feminism and jazz, Sweden and vampires and all this

1130
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: fun stuff, and what is your favorite or at least

1131
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: favorite episodes seasons? Share it all with us mom Stuff

1132
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot Com is our email address.

1133
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

1134
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:54,759
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages

1135
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 1: to share with you when we come right back from

1136
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 1: a quick break. And I have a letter here from

1137
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 1: Megan in response to our empower tizing episode. Megan says, uh, well,

1138
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 1: I loved it. There was one sentence I have to

1139
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 1: take issue with. One of you said, there's no empirical

1140
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:18,759
Speaker 1: proof that commercials are going to solve sexism. Not entirely true.

1141
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 1: Did you know that thanks to the tobacco industry targeting

1142
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: women from torches of freedom to you've come a long

1143
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: way baby, to the more insidious modern methods of product

1144
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: placement and popular TV programs like Madmen and House of Cards,

1145
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,959
Speaker 1: Women and men suffer from the same number of deaths

1146
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:40,679
Speaker 1: owing to smoking induced lung cancer. In the far past,

1147
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 1: the number of men who died from this horrific disease

1148
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: was considerably higher than the number of women, but nowadays

1149
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: it's much the same. Isn't it great to know that

1150
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: although we haven't achieved equality and pay, political representation, or

1151
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,840
Speaker 1: almost any other area, thanks to the advertising industry, we

1152
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 1: as a gender have the same chance of dying and

1153
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:01,920
Speaker 1: untimely painful, preventable death student cigarette consumption as do men

1154
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: what achievement? Please forgive my British irony. Doesn't that make

1155
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 1: you want to vomit or set fire to every advertising

1156
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: agency in the world. Having nursed my mother through cancer,

1157
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 1: this topic makes me really angry. I often refer my

1158
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 1: students to your podcast. If they won't do the recommended reading,

1159
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 1: I hope they will do some recommended listening. So may

1160
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,559
Speaker 1: I please ask you to mind young women how dangerous

1161
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: smoking is and not cool and definitely not original and

1162
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: very definitely not a feminist statement. Uh. Thank you so much,

1163
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: Megan for your very true point about advertising equality. So

1164
01:10:36,040 --> 01:10:39,640
Speaker 1: I've got a letter here also about that episode, from Melissa,

1165
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,720
Speaker 1: who has a story about her grandmother. She writes, my

1166
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 1: grandmother and I were chatting at the kitchen table over

1167
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 1: coffee one day, and somehow we got onto the topic

1168
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: of feminine hygiene. I used cloth pads at the time.

1169
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: I've since had a hysterectomy, and I was asking her

1170
01:10:56,920 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 1: about feminine products of her time. She told me abou

1171
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: of the time when her sister Jane had a most

1172
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,719
Speaker 1: horrible experience while working in New York as a rocket.

1173
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 1: Jane was told by fellow a fellow dancer that lysol

1174
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:12,640
Speaker 1: would help her stay fresh and avoid having a baby.

1175
01:11:12,720 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 1: So she went home, armed with her new knowledge and

1176
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 1: went straight to the restroom. She apparently placed lysol the

1177
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 1: kind you clean with, in a douche bag, undeluded, and

1178
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:27,120
Speaker 1: proceeded to freshen her Lady bits. My grandmother, who shared

1179
01:11:27,160 --> 01:11:31,280
Speaker 1: the apartment with her, her her scream olive I'm burning.

1180
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 1: My grandmother recalled that she found my aunt Jane in

1181
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: the bathtub, sobbing and running cold water over her vagina.

1182
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 1: She said it took an hour to stop burning and

1183
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 1: that Jane was tender down there for days. My grandmother

1184
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:46,439
Speaker 1: and I laughed at Jane's expense for a long time,

1185
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 1: and then my grandma gave me the same advice you did, Melissa, Honey,

1186
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: don't douche with lysol. It's not to be used down there,

1187
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 1: Oh Melissa. Has there ever been greater grandmother advice? I

1188
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:04,639
Speaker 1: think not so. Thanks everyone for sharing all of your stories,

1189
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 1: including your douching stories. We'd love to hear them all.

1190
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:10,599
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

1191
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social

1192
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:15,000
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and

1193
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources So you can learn even more

1194
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 1: about the Buffy verse. Head on over to Stuff Mom

1195
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: Never told You dot com for more on this and

1196
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot

1197
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:40,520
Speaker 1: com