1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 2: the podcast. We're in between parts one and two. We 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: talk about our dogs for an extended period of time, 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: because dogs are great. I hope that if you have 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: a dog in your life, you are nice to it. 7 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: If you're not nice to the dogs in your life, 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 2: I hope redacted. So our guest today is Miriam Him 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: Miriam Hi. Our producer is Sophie Hi, Sophie Hi. Our 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 2: audio engineer is Daniel Hi, Daniel Hi, Daniel Hi, Danel. 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: Our theme music was written for us by Unwoman. And 12 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: this is part two and a two parter. And you 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: know what that means. It means that if you didn't 14 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: listen to part one, it nothing makes sense. And I'm 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: as always impressed by your ability to move through the 16 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: world without knowing everything about the thing that came before 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 2: the thing in order to understand the thing. I'm just 18 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: it's really impressive. All you care about is the effects 19 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 2: of World War One on Local eight in Philadelphia in 20 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen and onward. I that's all you care about, 21 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: then this is a good place to start listening. And 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: I don't understand you. 23 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 3: And if you're like, what's Local eight? Go back and 24 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 3: listen to part one. 25 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, they'd be like, isn't that band that's Bound for 26 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: the Floor And you're like, no, because that's Local H. 27 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: Just not about Heroin. That was that. I always assumed 28 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: Local H was about Heroin. 29 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 3: That's it about. 30 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: It's like two ram songs mixed together. Is when they 31 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: got there. I spent up. I looked it up this week. 32 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 3: You're bringing us absolutely all the context I know. 33 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 2: Well, okay, so I had this Local eight shirt when 34 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: I was a kid, and the front of it as 35 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: a teenager, and the front of us is Local H 36 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 2: and the back just says fuck you amazing, And I 37 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: was like the coolest, edgiest kid in the world. Right 38 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 2: because I had this shirt, I got a concert I 39 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: went to and so one day, I guess I'm committed 40 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: to telling this story. I would wear it to school, 41 00:01:58,160 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: but I would have to change it before I got home, 42 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 2: right because if my dad's very upset. No, I actually 43 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: don't tell stories about my family anyway, I'll tell you 44 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: that I wore it at school because I'm that kind 45 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: of cool kid, always been super cool. 46 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 3: You got away with that if you were in a 47 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 3: shirt with an offensive statement on it. At my school, 48 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,679 Speaker 3: they would send you to the principal's office and dig 49 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 3: something out of the lost and found and make you 50 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: wear that instead. 51 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: We had like kind of a competition, me and one 52 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 2: of my friends where we would like, I had to 53 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: try it out to get caught, right, So I wore 54 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: my like cool army coat over it, you know, so 55 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: you couldn't see the back most of the time. But 56 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 2: then but then when there's like no teachers around or anything, right, 57 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: I'd take it off and see how, like what high 58 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: percent of the day I could walk around with a 59 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: big fuck you on my back. And then one of 60 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 2: my friends we would both make our own T shirts 61 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: that'd be as like edgy or whatever and clever as possible, 62 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: and he would always get busted more, and so they 63 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: would go and make him turn his shirt inside out, 64 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: so he started putting other stuff like this school is 65 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 2: fascist on the inside of the shirt. 66 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: God, I love that. Yeah, I'm so glad teenagers do 67 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 3: stuff like that. It just it warms my heart every time. 68 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: Do you have to write it backwards if it's going 69 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: to be on the inside. 70 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: I don't know, because you just inside out. 71 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 72 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: Sure, okay, yeah, that rules. 73 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: I'm yeah, I don't know what happened to him. I 74 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: can't remember whether they at that point. It is probably 75 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: lost and found time. This is a pre Columbine world. 76 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: Then Columbine happened, and they took the doors off of 77 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: the stair while we all hung out in and no 78 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: one was allowed to wear trench goats anymore. 79 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: You want to know what I got in trouble for 80 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: post Columbine at my school? 81 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: What this was. 82 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 3: I was in study hall. I was very bored, and 83 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: I had a rubber band and some paper clips and 84 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 3: a chalkboard eraser, and I fashioned the rubber band and 85 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 3: the paper clips into a little bow and arrow and 86 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 3: I shot paper clips at the chalkboard eraser. Hell yeah, 87 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: and I got detention. Hell yeah, because it was post 88 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: Columbine and a bow and arrow made out of paper 89 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: clips was a little too violent. 90 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: Hell yeah, sounds super cool, though, I know. 91 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, as you can tell, I was extremely cool. 92 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were all really cool. No, no one should 93 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 2: look up anything, but now, yeah, we're just always cool. 94 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 2: So what was cool was AWW And what wasn't cool 95 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: but was morally complex was World War One. People love 96 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: that I have opinions about the high water mark of 97 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: the labor union in the early twentieth century. This is 98 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: why I get invited to lots of things. The high 99 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: water mark, from my point of view worldwide was immediately 100 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 2: before World War One. I can definitely hold on to 101 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: that being true when it comes to the United States. 102 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,559 Speaker 2: It's a bit fussier when you look elsewhere around the world. 103 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: But World War One initiated the Red Scare in America, 104 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: and the Russian Civil War initiated the Bolshevik counter revolution 105 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: that shifted the socialist project from one that sought to 106 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: empower the working class to one that sought to empower 107 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: a privileged minority and sucked away energy from working class organizing. 108 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 2: So the high water mark of the labor movement immediately 109 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: before World War One. 110 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a solid opinion, and I think 111 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 3: that that is exactly why people invite you to stuff. 112 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, there were strikes everywhere in the nineteen tens 113 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: in the US at the lead up to and the 114 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: start of the war. The working class even gained some 115 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: relative power because of the warps and so many people 116 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 2: were off to war. There was more labor to be 117 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: done and fewer people to do it. Sadly, this increased 118 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: power did not last too long. In February nineteen seventeen, 119 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: a couple months before the US entered the war, sugar 120 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 2: workers went on strike in Philly. It started near the 121 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: docks and then spread out from there because the docks 122 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: were such a hotbed of organizing. Right, Like, it's like 123 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: if you have a place where you're like see organized 124 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: labor working constantly, it's like more in your head that 125 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: that's a possibility, right right. Local eight got involved and 126 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: they helped the strike cross color lines, and they refused 127 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: to unload ships transporting sugarcane to the factories on strike. 128 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: A Wobbly was killed in that fight, I believe by cops. 129 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 2: The strike won its rays, but it did not when 130 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: pay for the time lost striking, and it was seen 131 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: as kind of a draw. Then the US declared war 132 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: and nationalism swept the country. The working class was divided 133 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: and shit started falling apart. Most of the leadership of 134 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 2: the IWW was against the war, but there was no 135 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: official Wobbly party line. And I think that this was 136 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: intended as like pragmatic, but it was also basically democratic. 137 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: The IWW might not have seen itself as really capable 138 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,840 Speaker 2: of taking a position on the war that all the 139 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: constituents of it were expected to abide by, right, Like, 140 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: who are we to say that the dock workers have 141 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: to be against us intervention in the war. That's not 142 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 2: part of what we're talking about necessarily, right, because we're 143 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: not a political organization, we're a labor organization. 144 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 3: I mean, that's interesting because I think so much of 145 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 3: the left at the time saw World War One as 146 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: the working class of every country going and killing each 147 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 3: other at the behest of the ownership class. 148 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 2: Yep. But so much it also didn't. And that's the 149 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: thing is that that was a very divisive issue. And 150 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 2: again most of the organizers of the IWW felt exactly that. 151 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: I like, it is divisive of the working class for 152 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: a German worker to be in a shooting war with 153 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: a Russian worker, you know, right, But a majority of 154 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: the rank and file were either in favor of the 155 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: war or they at least comply with the law that 156 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: required them to register for the draft. 157 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: Well, and I wonder also if not having a party 158 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,119 Speaker 3: line on this, and maybe this is jumping ahead a little, 159 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 3: but I know that among anarchists of the time, arguing 160 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: against the draft was illegal and got you, for example, 161 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 3: deported if you were not born in the US. And 162 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 3: so I wonder if not having a party line on 163 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: that was like a way to keep the IWW as 164 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 3: a whole safe from the accusation that they were encouraging 165 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: people not to register for the draft. 166 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: I believe that I was part of it and at 167 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 2: one hundred percent did not work. 168 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 169 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: Local eight was actually one of the most pro war, 170 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: or at least not anti war locals. They voted to 171 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: not strike during the war lest they disrupt the war effort. 172 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: Loading ships, after all, is a pretty major part of 173 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: the logistics of war. The army was segregated, of course, 174 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: and black longshoremen who were drafted often weren't allowed to fight, 175 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: but were instead shipped to Europe to unload boxes off 176 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 2: of ships to continue to be longshoreman. Ben Fletcher's younger brother, Clarence, 177 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: was a private in an all black infantry unit in France, 178 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 2: but because they were black, they were forced to dig 179 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: trenches in graves instead of fight, and he survived the war. 180 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: Ben Fletcher himself, along with the rest of Local eight, 181 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: wasn't particularly anti war. Some of their German fellow workers 182 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 2: were actually wildly pro war because they fucking hated the 183 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: Kaiser and like, just everything's messy, right. This is just 184 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 2: like probably the biggest, first huge division. I mean, there's 185 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: like other divisions in the labor movement, especially around like 186 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to go with the actual labor movement at 187 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 2: the white supremacist organizations that call themselves labor unions, you know. 188 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure they were all pro war. Yeah, they 189 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: were like, yeah, it's good for business, fuck human life. 190 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 2: I haven't read enough about the AFL and World War One, 191 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: but I've like I expect that to be the case. 192 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: I let's just say I read it and that's what 193 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: it said. 194 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck them. Yeah. So, participation in World War One 195 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: completely splintered the left, both into pro and anti war sides, 196 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: because involving yourself in a war well and also because yeah, 197 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 2: it splinters the working class to have the working class 198 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 2: shoot itself. Right. Despite the IWW not being an anti 199 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: war organization and both ben and Local eight being indifferent 200 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: at worst to the issue, the state absolutely used World 201 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 2: War One as an excuse to try to destroy the 202 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 2: IWW completely, and frankly they kind of succeeded. They obviously 203 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: didn't totally succeed or I wouldn't have joined the IWW today. 204 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: But Joy howdy, did they strike at a blow. As 205 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 2: we've talked about a couple times on the show, the 206 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: first ever Red Scare was at least as much aimed 207 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: at anarchists and Wobbley's, like, right, like we've talked about 208 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: on the show, and as you pointed out, like a 209 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: lot of anarchists, especially Jewish anarchists, got deported, you know 210 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: during this Red scare, right, And yeah, it was aimed 211 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: as much at anarchists and Wobbley's as it was at 212 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 2: socialism and communism more broadly. It is the second red 213 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 2: scare that comes for the communists specifically, on September fifth, 214 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, FEDS and cops rated Local eight and the 215 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 2: other Wobbly Hall in Philly, plus offices of the Wobblies 216 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: and a dozen other cities, including the main headquarters in Chicago. 217 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: Literally tons of records were stolen by the Feds. They 218 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 2: even stole the furniture, what like. 219 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: What is their justification for that? Is it seditious furniture? 220 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 3: Is it like furniture? Where they're going to be like, Oh, 221 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 3: we're going to really get some information out of this 222 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 3: or are they just fucking with people? 223 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 2: I assume they're just fucking with people. They stole a 224 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 2: wobbly Joe Hill's ashes. 225 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 3: Holy shit, I can't believe I didn't know that. 226 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, we're taking your dad. Well, okay, so 227 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: his ashes were like I think, in a bunch of 228 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 2: different envelopes. I think it was like everyone gets some ashes, 229 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 2: you know, is the implication. 230 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, everyone gets a little bit of Joe Hill. 231 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. One hundred and sixty six Wobblies were charged with 232 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: violating the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen for interfering with 233 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: the draft. Innocence did not save them was an important 234 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: thing to remember, unfortunately, during times of political repression. Mm hmmm. 235 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: The war on the IWW was waged by the government, 236 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: but it was supported by an interesting alliance. The bosses 237 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 2: got together with the government, and they also got together 238 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: with the white supremacist organization that called uself a labor union, 239 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: the AFL, and they together formed the Adjustment Commission, and 240 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: its goal was to get the IWW out. 241 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: The Adjustment Commission sounds evil, Like. 242 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: I know, straight up, I don't know much more about 243 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: it than the name of it, right, and what it 244 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 2: did in this particular context, I don't know of it. 245 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 2: At other broader goals, it was definitely described as this 246 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: is its purpose is to destroy the IWW. Ben Fletcher 247 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: was the only black wobbly brought up on charges during 248 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 2: the Red Scare Part one. Okay, here's the funny thing. Well, 249 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: there's a bunch of funny. He gets in some good 250 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: jokes around the time he's going to jail. 251 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: You did promise me jokes. 252 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, But first the joke is the government. The 253 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 2: thing about being black in America is that you're somehow 254 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: both the most evil villain imaginable to white people, and 255 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: you're also invisible, which gets the funniest part of this 256 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: whole story. It took them four months to find and 257 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: arrest him. He did not hide. 258 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: Incredible. 259 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: Ben and his family had just moved from Boston to 260 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 2: Philly in with Ben's dad, and he found work under 261 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: his own name, working on the railroads, and all he 262 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: did was not turn himself in. It took them four 263 00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 2: fucking months. 264 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's incredible. He's so he's not only like working 265 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 3: under his own name, he is living with his father, 266 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 3: so like, yeah, the first person you would check with 267 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 3: if you were looking for somebody. 268 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I think he just like was like, well, 269 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 2: if I'm going to go down, I should be near 270 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: my family. You know. It's like the best read I 271 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: have on it. 272 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 3: I love it. I love that He's like, no, I'm 273 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 3: not hiding, You're just stupid. 274 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it gets better. So in mid February nineteen eighteen, 275 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: the fence found him and arrested him at his home. 276 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: He spent two weeks in jail before Local eight got 277 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 2: his bail together and got him out. But the Invisible 278 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: Man shit did not end here. I'm going to quote 279 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: historian Robin D. G. Kelly, who's going to then quote 280 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: Fletcher himself. So it's a quote within a quote, but 281 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: I believe in y'all we can handle it. One and 282 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 2: a quote within the quote has quotes within it. Oh 283 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: my god. Oh no, it's still very readable. So quote well. 284 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 2: Out on bail. He received a summons to appear in 285 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 2: court in Chicago in April first, nineteen eighteen. Delayed by 286 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: a train accident, Fletcher arrived at the court house a 287 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 2: couple hours late. And then now I'm quoting Ben Fletcher. 288 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: Making my way through the federal agents and police who 289 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: swarmed the corridors. I was blocked at the courtroom door 290 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: by the chief bailiff, who inquired, what do you want 291 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: in here? Well, I belong in here. Oh a wise 292 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: boy from the south Side. Want to see the show? No, 293 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: I'm one of the actors. Take that stuff away. You 294 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: can't get in here. Continuing the quote, but now back 295 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: to the historian quote. He had to produce identification and 296 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: his summons just to prove he was the one and 297 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: only Benjamin Harrison Fletcher. It was enough to finally persuade 298 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: the chief bailiff to let him enter, and then I 299 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: walked into the courtroom and into the federal penitentiary. 300 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: Oh my god, cops are They're so stupid. They're so stupid. 301 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: I know. They're like, there are two races to let 302 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: him get arrested twice, he's twice. The cops are too 303 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: fucking like, oh my god, a wise boy from the 304 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: south Side. Huh. 305 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 3: Also, like I have within my lifetime still heard cops 306 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: be like, oh, wise guy, huh when like people talk shit, 307 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: which is like amazing, Like you've had one hundred years 308 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: to come up with a better comeback than that, and 309 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: you're still going, oh, wise guy. 310 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 311 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: I would like to think that that bailiff was very embarrassed, 312 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: but I suspect that he did not have the capacities 313 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: for Yeah. 314 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: No, the thought never crossed his mind that he did 315 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 2: anything wrong. The wobblis formed. I think it's their first 316 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: general defense committee, which still often exists, right to defend 317 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: their members. And Fletcher's family got ten dollars a week 318 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: to keep them going while Ben was unable to work. 319 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: This is about twenty five cents an hour at forty 320 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: hours a week, so probably a little bit less than 321 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: when he was brought in when he was working. To 322 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: be clear, twenty five cents an hour is a totally 323 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: normal rate. That is around eleven thousand dollars a year today. 324 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: People were struggling. I think is something that like, obviously 325 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: an awful lot of people are struggling right now, right, 326 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 2: but I think that people don't quite. The left is 327 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: richer than it was one hundred years ago, and we 328 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: have nothing to show for it, and I think people 329 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 2: should step it up more. Middle class radicals should be 330 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: giving a higher percentage of their income to like actual organizing. Yeah, 331 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: fundraisers and benefits for individuals and things like that are great, 332 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: but like actual organizing, good, good user help. 333 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 3: It's all well and good to keep passing around the 334 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: same twenty dollars to different people's healthcare go fundmes, but yeah, 335 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: we gotta we gotta put some money towards actual long 336 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: term change. 337 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I absolutely have friends who 338 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: live off of eleven thousand dollars a year, right, but 339 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 2: like a lot of people live off of more than 340 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: that too. Anyway, whatever, I'm just I just had like 341 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: this kind of epiphany looking at this, like being like, oh, yeah, right, 342 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: these like people who change the fucking world. Right, You'll 343 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: read about Emma Goldman and then like Emma Goldman will 344 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: be like and then and I was vaguely supported in 345 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 2: a shitty apartment in France in my old age because 346 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: I couldn't work anymore, and the movement pitched in to 347 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: make sure it did and starve to death. And you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, 348 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: like there's a working class movement, you know. 349 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 350 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: Anyway, so this trial was absolutely just about destroying IWW. 351 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: And one of the reasons we know that is because 352 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: they included Ben Fletcher and Local eight organizers because Local 353 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 2: eight while this is happening, is dutifully loading war cargo 354 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: and a ton of its members were overseas fighting or 355 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 2: digging ditches due to racism. But like the whole you know, 356 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 2: the press is just full of like the IWW's agents 357 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: of the Kaiser, you know. 358 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 3: Right, Anyone I don't like is agents of the Kaiser. 359 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. The trial dragged on is the longest federal trial 360 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: up to that point in US history, oh, which is 361 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: only like four months or something like that. And the 362 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 2: defendants were held in Cook County Jail where the Haymarket 363 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 2: ruders had been held. The defendants made jokes the entire 364 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 2: time they were on trial. This is like how wobblies do. 365 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: Is they're just constantly singing and joking as they're like 366 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: dying and like lives are ending around them and shit, 367 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: they're just like singing and laughing to their graves. It's 368 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: kind of it's kind of hot. 369 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love. 370 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: That they know that this is a farce. One guy, 371 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: Jack Walsh, kept referring to the prosecutor, a guy named Nebacker, 372 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 2: as fellow worker Nebecker. He's not an owner, he's a worker. 373 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 374 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 2: Four months of trial, and the evidence that is used 375 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: against the Wobblies is pretty much just all the anti 376 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: war statements they made before the war started and before 377 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: the law that outlawed anti war statements. 378 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 3: Hmmm. 379 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: And then after forty five minutes of jury deliberation, all 380 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 2: of the Wobblis were found guilty on all counts. Classic 381 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: fair trial system as it should. Yeah. Ben Fletcher was 382 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 2: given ten years and Ben told his friend the judge 383 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: has been using very ungrammatical language. The friend said, how's that, Ben? 384 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: And Ben said, his sentences are much too long? 385 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 3: Oh my god, it's so good Ben. That rules. 386 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 2: I know he didn't have his own kids, but he 387 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 2: brought out the dad energy. He is twenty seven years old. 388 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 2: I like it. 389 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, God, And that's like, I mean, you must have 390 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 3: had that in his back pocket the whole time, like 391 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: just waiting. 392 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm certain he is just like giggling to 393 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: himself as he's imagining his life being destroyed. But he's like, 394 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: I got a good joke though, you know. 395 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 3: Yep, and the worst like punishment you give me, the 396 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 3: funnier my joke will be so heads. 397 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 2: Up for that, Yeah, I got you. Eddy direction but 398 00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: you know what else the wobbley said? 399 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 3: What else did the Wobbleys have. 400 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: They put advertising in their newspapers? 401 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: Did they? 402 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of old radical presses and newspapers and 403 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: shit had advertising. It's a thing that people don't talk about. 404 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: But that's how the sausages. This is vegan sausages. Here's ads, 405 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: and we're back. So I actually don't know if all 406 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: of the wobbly newspapers always had it, but I remember 407 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: reading about it specifically when I was doing episode about 408 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 2: the Spokane free speech fight, and because it like really 409 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: stood out to me, and there's been a couple other times, 410 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 2: like different black radical papers in the sixties and things 411 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: like that a lot of people have Anyway, it was 412 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: just a thing that I didn't expect. So when I 413 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: like learned about it, I was like, oh, interesting, you know. 414 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 3: Ooh, a fact that will make for a good ad transition. 415 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 3: You probably don't run across too many of those. 416 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll put that one away. 417 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, But before we went on break, I just realized 418 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 3: what we didn't shout out was Ben's friend, who was 419 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 3: like playing the perfect straight man to his joke. Because 420 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 3: Ben said this judge's sentences are very ungrammatical, and the 421 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 3: friend could have just gone yeah, or who gives a fuck? 422 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 3: Or okay, but no, he went, how's that Ben? Like 423 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 3: he was working a fucking vaudeville stage, And I love that. 424 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: Hell yeah. And it's funny because it's like they are 425 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 2: actually experienced comedians. That's the other thing that I think 426 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 2: people like, I know we talked about earlier, but it's 427 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 2: like they are practice showmen, you know. 428 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 429 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 2: So most of the Wobbles, including Ben, were sent off 430 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 2: to Levenworth, Kansas, the first ever federal prison. While they're 431 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: on the train, whenever they're like stopped on the tracks 432 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: near some factories, they would sing wobbley songs so loud 433 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 2: that the workers from the factories would like come out 434 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: to the tracks to listen, because that's how wobblies do amazing. 435 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: The jail was full of political prisoners, including two different 436 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: types of political prisoners. At the time I didn't know about, 437 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: but I'll get to that. It's not just the Wobbles there, 438 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 2: and the guards constantly tried and I think sometimes succeeded 439 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: at getting the ordinary criminal prisoners to get into fights 440 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: with the quote political prisoners Jay Edgar Hoover personally made 441 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: sure that Fletcher's correspondence was like extra monitored, both because 442 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: he was a wobbly and extra extra because he's black. 443 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: He was afraid of quote Negro agitation. This didn't stop 444 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: Ben from corresponding with all the black socialists at the time. 445 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: After Marcus Garvey, Ben was the most prominent black political 446 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 2: prisoner in the country, and most of what we have 447 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 2: about him in paper comes from the fact that he 448 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: was in prison for two and a half years. That's 449 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 2: how we know his height and weight five four, one 450 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty pounds. The Wobblis read books, They taught 451 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: one another. They wrote the outside world as much as 452 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: they could. Their correspondence was being intentionally limited, and they 453 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: were like weren't allowed to like write articles for things, 454 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: and all kinds of limitations on them. They tried to 455 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: organize in prison with some success, and they weren't the 456 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,239 Speaker 2: only political prisoners. One historian, Christina Heatherton called Levenworth at 457 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: the time the University of radicalism, and it had quote 458 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: Bulgarian communists, Indian Gadarites, Mexican and Arco syndicalists, and African 459 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 2: American socialists. 460 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 3: That's a party. 461 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: I know, it's an even better party because veteran of 462 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: the POD, one of the greatest anarchist militants in history, 463 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 2: Ricardo Flores mcgone and his brother Enrique in there with Ben. 464 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 3: Hell yeah, that is a good party. 465 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, imagine, just like it's got to be wild, right 466 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: because you're just like, oh, wait, your movements in here, 467 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 2: Like he oh shit, I heard of you, you know, 468 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 2: like yeah, you're like, oh. 469 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 3: I'm like this sucks. I'm in prison, but like, wait, 470 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 3: the Floris McGowan brothers are in here. Yeah, like, holy shit. 471 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: Now, had you heard of the Indian Gahataites? 472 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: I had not. 473 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 2: I hadn't either. I had to look it up. All 474 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: they teach about Indian independence in the US schools is Gandhi. 475 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 2: Why would you bother telling Americans about the militant revolutionary 476 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 2: movement founded in Oregon by Diaspris, Sikhs and Hindus that 477 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 2: worked to smuggle arms in India to try to overthrow 478 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: the empire. 479 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 3: Holy shit? Yeah, why would anybody want to know about that? 480 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: I know, it's not like it happened in America. Oh wait, 481 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 2: it fucking did. But no one cares about non white 482 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 2: people in America. 483 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 3: So are you going to do an episode on those guys? 484 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 3: Because I want to know everything. 485 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,719 Speaker 2: Probably, I mean, they might have been awful, but they 486 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 2: seem pretty cool. 487 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 3: Only one way to find out, I know, by declaring 488 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: them cool, doing an episode on them, and finding out 489 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 3: whether they hold up to them. 490 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 2: And then halfway through being like, ah, shit, Yeah, there's 491 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: also an entire black regiment of the army in there 492 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: with them. 493 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 3: What the fuck? 494 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, sixty two members of the Black twenty fourth Infantry 495 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 2: were in there. This is not the entire regiment, it 496 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: is a fuck ton of them. They had been imprisoned 497 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: for life because of the Houston riot. You ever heard 498 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: of the Houston riot? I also hadn't. 499 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: No. 500 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 2: This is when one hundred and fifty six black soldiers 501 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: mutant need after a white cop beat a black soldier 502 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: who tried to interfere with the violent arrest of a 503 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: black woman in Houston. Because during the war, they like 504 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 2: stationed a bunch of black soldiers to protect something in Houston, 505 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: and a black soldier saw a white cop being a 506 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: racist piece of shit interfered, so white cops beat the 507 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: shit out of him. So one hundred and fifty six 508 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: black soldiers mutine need They marched on Houston and they 509 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: shot and killed all captain of the Illinois National Guard 510 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: because they thought he was the cop. And then they 511 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: fought a white militia and a bunch of cops. Fifteen 512 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: white people were killed, five black soldiers were killed. After this, 513 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: nineteen of the mutineers were hanged. Another sixty three were 514 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 2: hanging out with Ben Fletcher and Levenworth for life. Yeah. 515 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: Holy shit. 516 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, America likes racist white cops more than it likes 517 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 2: black Millie Harry people. 518 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: America likes racist white cops more than pretty much anything. Yeah, 519 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 3: that's awful. Yeah, No, I'd never heard of that. 520 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 2: Yeah I had neither. So outside the jail, people worked 521 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: tirelessly to free the Wobblis and all the other political 522 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 2: prisoners of the war. The newly created ACLU champion their cause, 523 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: and in nineteen twenty to nineteen twenty one most of 524 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 2: the prisoners got out, but the US had it in 525 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 2: for one group in particular. Well, the black soldiers didn't 526 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 2: get out, but by nineteen twenty two most of the 527 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: remaining political prisoners were the Wobblies. Because these are the 528 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 2: worst of the worst, even though again they're the ones 529 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: who didn't actually try and fight against the draft. 530 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 3: Right, they're like the ones who are factually innocent. 531 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like some of them had been anti draft, 532 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: but they had all kind of like shut up once 533 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 2: it became illegal to say something about the draft because 534 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: they were busy with labor organizing. You know. Yeah, as 535 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: my best read, I've only read the Ben Fletcher version 536 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: of this story, but I trust him. I do too. 537 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: You have some interesting, fucking hot takes. I'm gonna give 538 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: you the hottest take. 539 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 3: I can't wait. 540 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 2: I'm gonna give it to you right now, and then 541 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 2: I'm gonna prove it later. Do you know this Lennon's fault, 542 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: the IWW fell apart plausible? Go on, Oh, I'll tell 543 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 2: you later. Yeah, there's one more thing we can point at, 544 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: the fucking Tankies about Ben Flescher did not like Tankies. 545 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 3: A great I like him more and more every time 546 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 3: you say a thing about him. I like him more. 547 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 2: I know eventually they get out. By the end of 548 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty two, they're all out. 549 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 3: So how much of his tenure sentence did he do two. 550 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 2: And a half years? Okay, the war ending and everyone 551 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 2: being like, wait, is completely illegal to throw people in 552 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: prison for free speech, and then the US is like, well, 553 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 2: we kind of only need them to shut up because 554 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: we were in the war. You know. It's like the 555 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 2: way that the state does everything. They're like, well, just 556 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: arrest them, and then by the time that they get 557 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 2: proven innocent, it's too late, you know. So IWW never 558 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: fully recovers from this blow, or rather from the one, two, three, 559 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: four punch of state repression, boss repression, AFL opportunism, and 560 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 2: authoritarian communist infiltration and undermining, and a fifth punch that 561 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: actually Ben mostly blames on the communists, and I think 562 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 2: he's probably right, which is infighting and arguing about complicated 563 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 2: bureaucratic shit. 564 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 3: Oh, communists do love. 565 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 2: That they do. After the war, things almost went back 566 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: to normal for Local eight for a few years, though 567 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 2: most of their most experienced organizers had been in prison. 568 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 2: Local eight was trying to cope with a shifting culture 569 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: and an increasing number of the dock workers were black 570 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: workers coming from the US South, where all they'd known 571 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: of unions was that their white supremacist organizations, and the 572 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: white workers, even in Local eight, weren't always proving them wrong. Again, overall, 573 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: pretty fucking good about this stuff. Not always perfect. There 574 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 2: was also cultural tensions between Local eight and the rest 575 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: of the IWW, because Local eight is like, was more 576 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: racially integrated, and it's also in some ways more moderate, right, 577 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: they're a little bit more likely. The most committed wobblies 578 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: are all these anarchists and socialists of various stripes whose 579 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: primary purpose is to organize the working class into force 580 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 2: that could end wage labor once and for all. A 581 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: ton of them are unmarried, married only to the movement. 582 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: A lot of the workers, especially in Philly, are like, look, 583 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 2: I just want to feed my family, right. And there's 584 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: also a bunch of arguments that they start having between 585 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: the Local eight and i WW about how to hold 586 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 2: onto money. Philly wants to maintain its own war chest 587 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 2: rather than sending money to Chicago, where they would argue 588 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: it was hard to then requisition the money back when 589 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 2: they needed it, partly because they went on strike like 590 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: all the fucking time, right, because they were actually, when 591 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 2: I say they were a little bit more moderate, they're 592 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 2: still a fighting union and militant is hell, right, But 593 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: so they like they're like, hey, we need some of 594 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: our own money back. More often you know, right. 595 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 3: Like if your strike fund is in Chicago and it's 596 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 3: the nineteen twenties, like, you're not getting it when you need. 597 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,959 Speaker 2: It, Yeah, especially if you have to argue for it, 598 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: you know. 599 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 600 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 2: In nineteen twenty, for some complicated reason, Ben was out 601 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: on bay all waiting an appeal. He went to jail 602 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 2: for totally two and a half years, but he like 603 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 2: got out for a little while, I think a couple 604 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: of months during this appeal, But I'm not entirely sure. 605 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: He was very much not allowed to do labor organizing 606 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 2: or go on strike and shit like that. While he's 607 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: out right he won one hundred percent did labor organizing 608 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: and went on strike and shit like that. 609 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 3: I expect nothing less. 610 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 2: His participation was under the radar. He wasn't like, Hey, 611 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 2: I'm Ben Fletcher and I'm here to say, you know well. 612 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 3: And I assume again that the cops were just like, 613 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 3: who's that guy? 614 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that happened too, What are you doing here? Yeah, 615 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: that's another black speaker. Can't tell him apart I'm a racist. 616 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 3: They know they've already failed to recognize him at his 617 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 3: own trial. I can't imagine that when he pops up 618 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 3: doing organizing. They're like, I've put it all together and 619 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 3: I know who that is. 620 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: I know. 621 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: Also, like the bailiff is like, you literally only have 622 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 2: to know what one black man looks like. There is 623 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 2: only one black man on trial, and he's late to 624 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: the trial. You think they'd be like, holy shit, they're. 625 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 3: Waiting for him, You're looking for him. 626 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, they might have been, and then just I don't 627 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: know whatever. 628 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 3: Anyway, I assume that he could have been wearing like 629 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 3: a name tag, like a hello my name is, like 630 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 3: a jersey with his name on it, like the whole thing. Yeah, 631 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 3: in a wobbly pit, and they still would have looked 632 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 3: right past him. 633 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. And So there's this other strike that happens with 634 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 2: Local eight on the docks in Philly in nineteen twenty, 635 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: and this one was hard as fuck. It dragged on, 636 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 2: it got really violent, and on June seventh, nineteen twenty, 637 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: during a union workers versus cops and scabs fight, a 638 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 2: black strike breaker I believe up from Baltimore, killed a 639 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: Polish worker and injured a black worker. And this is 640 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 2: where some of the racial tensions start to show. I 641 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 2: believe I'm kind of reading between the lines here. I 642 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: could be more certain about exactly how the racial solidarity 643 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: fell apart, because I also don't totally trust some of 644 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: the white authors who've talked about this in their analysis 645 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 2: about like, right, some of the white authors talk about 646 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 2: this are like, Oh, it's those black people from the 647 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 2: South don't know about being anti racist. 648 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 3: Well, it would be very convenient for the bosses who 649 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 3: are trying to break the union if after, you know, 650 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 3: the dust settles after a conflict, and there's one dead 651 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 3: white guy and one injured black guy, it would be 652 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 3: very convenient for the bosses to point to a black 653 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 3: strike breaker from the South and be like, oh, it's 654 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 3: definitely him, right. Their whole deal is that division. 655 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it absolutely could have been the black strike 656 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: breaker defending himself, right. Because that's the thing is when 657 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 2: we're talking about like, oh, all the old unions and 658 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 2: people are like why do they get treated so bad? 659 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: And like sometimes it's like because they're throwing rocks at people, right, 660 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: Like it's like not legal to throw rocks at key people. 661 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: And I understand that, I'm still okay with it sometimes, 662 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 2: but it's like conflict is a violent conflict. 663 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a conflict that has been set in 664 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 3: motion by the people with all the power in this situation. So, like, absolutely, 665 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 3: I don't feel in a position to judge anybody in 666 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 3: this situation, right, Like right, the guy from Baltimore was 667 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 3: taking whatever work he could get, which he had been 668 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 3: kept out of union work by white supremacist. 669 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: Unions right in Baltimore. Yeah, totally, yeah, yeah. 670 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 3: The ultimate responsibility for this is in the hands of 671 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 3: the people with the power in the situation. 672 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: I absolutely agree, And so again by my reading between 673 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: the lines, the worker's funeral was like not good in 674 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 2: terms of some of what came out of it. This 675 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: is like where fault lines appear. The strike continues regardless, 676 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 2: racial solidarity is not yet broken. Two women who are 677 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 2: supporting the strikers and the fights on the docks are 678 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 2: killed by cops. This does not fall along racial lines 679 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: in a way that makes people angry. I don't know 680 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 2: the races of anyone involved in that. 681 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 3: I mean it should make like whatever the racial lines 682 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 3: are there, that should make people angry that the cops. 683 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, people are very angry about it. Yeah yeah, No. 684 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that it's like I'm not using 685 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 2: that as evidence of the dissolution of the union. Instead, 686 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: I'm saying, it's just the escalation of violence of what's happening, gotcha. 687 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 2: After forty one days, negotiations end the strike and it's 688 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: sort of a draw where some folks get some raises 689 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 2: but no other demands are met. And immediately after the 690 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: strike ends, the bosses rescind the promised raised wages and 691 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 2: the workers don't have enough power to stop this. Unity 692 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 2: is starting to fall apart. The strike had killed three 693 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: people and one very little. It's around this point that 694 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 2: the Bolsheviks start fucking with the left worldwide. They are 695 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 2: trying to tell everyone what to do. And the IWW 696 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 2: is Dowa Marxism, and it is down with anarchism and 697 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 2: is down with socialism. It is not in like ideologically 698 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 2: formed union right right, They weren't down with what gets 699 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 2: shorthand called communism like the Communist Party of Russia. The 700 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: Bolsheviks they start off being kind of curious, right, like 701 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: everyone is, and then they're pretty quickly like, oh, this 702 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: is anti democratic, authoritarian bullshit, right. And the IWW is 703 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: far and away the most competent militant leftist organization in 704 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 2: the US in the nineteen twenties, even after it took 705 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 2: a b in the war. So the Bolsheviks wants to 706 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 2: punish the IWW for not supporting them enough, and in 707 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 2: particular they come after Local eight. 708 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 3: That's astoundingly petty. 709 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: It's part of a thing where Lenin decides that he 710 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 2: wants to get the support of the AFL, and so 711 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: he takes the Bolsheviks are now participating in the conflict 712 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 2: between the moderate not anti capitalist, but authoritarian and power 713 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 2: hungry AFL. He has more in common with the AFL 714 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 2: than he does with the IWW. Right, so, oh yeah, no, 715 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 2: I've never been a big Lenin girl. I'm like just 716 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 2: super extramat at the Bolsheviks again today, you know. Yeah, 717 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 2: you don't got to wait till Stalin comes around before 718 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 2: they fuck everything up. 719 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, it was sucked way earlier. 720 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and okay, so they decided to come after Local eight. 721 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 2: It's possible, but incredibly unlikely that Local eight doc workers 722 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 2: loaded a military ship bound for supporting the White Army 723 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 2: in Siberia in the Russian Civil War. Like historians don't know, right, 724 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 2: there's not a proof that anyone seems to have. We 725 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: do know that they said they wouldn't do such a thing, 726 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 2: and that Ben says it was a fabrication and that 727 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 2: this boat was going to Siberia, which is famously not 728 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 2: close to Philadelphia. 729 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. That's one of the things I know 730 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 3: about Siberia. 731 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you ever like, hey, what's close to Philly? Like, 732 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 2: it takes me a while before I get to Siberia, 733 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, there's like a whole two continents in 734 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 2: the way. I don't remember when the Panama Canal got made, 735 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 2: but it would have loaded from Seattle with the rest 736 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 2: of the support for the White Army. It seems far 737 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 2: and away most likely. Regardless, the Bolsheviks in New York 738 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: City told the IWW to suspend Local eight, and the IWW, 739 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 2: in the biggest l I've ever seen them take in 740 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 2: the history of writing about them for this show, ignored 741 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: their own rules on how to handle this sort of 742 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: thing and briefly suspended Local eight. 743 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 3: She is they just they were just like, well, the 744 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 3: Bolsheviks said it, we gotta go with that. 745 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's like a little bit more sort of 746 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 2: bureaucratic arguing going back and forth about it than that. 747 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 2: But they come to their senses for a moment, and 748 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 2: they like unsuspend Local eight until they turn around and 749 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 2: suspend Local eight again. 750 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 3: This is definitely the most disappointing thing I've ever heard 751 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 3: about the IWW. 752 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 2: I know this second one is more of a like 753 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 2: classic leftist arguing thing that's like not as malicious, it seems, 754 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 2: although Ben is absolutely like, not the comedies were behind 755 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 2: this shit too, and like, I don't know he was there, 756 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 2: he might be right, yeah, but what happened was Local 757 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 2: eight started charging a like initiation, you know, like membership fee, 758 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 2: and nationally the IWW says if you charge that, it 759 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 2: can't be more than two dollars. 760 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 3: They're charging two fifty, aren't they. 761 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 2: Thirty five dollars? They're actually charging a fair amount. 762 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 3: Oh okay, that's that is more. 763 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 2: And they are consciously doing it for a couple reasons. 764 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 2: One is that like non union labor is flooding in 765 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 2: and they're like the labor pool is getting so big 766 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: that they like feel like they're losing control of what's happening. Right, 767 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 2: They're like, there's not enough work for all of these people. 768 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 2: We need to like limit the work pool, right, you know, 769 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 2: And Ben absolutely stands by this and is like this 770 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 2: is a necessary step. I read some analysis that kind 771 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 2: of makes sense to me that if you're like looking 772 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 2: out for the Philly dock workers, this makes sense. If 773 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 2: you're looking out for building a revolutionary solidarity among the 774 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: working class to overthrow capitalism and wage labor, this does 775 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 2: not make sense, right, I mean. 776 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 3: And it definitely sounds like the kind of thing where 777 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 3: it's like the AWW could be like, hey, stop doing that. 778 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 3: But it does kind of sound like if they're gonna 779 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 3: suspend Local eight, it has more to do with what's 780 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: been going on with the Bolsheviks than it has to 781 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 3: do with this. 782 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 2: That seems to me to be likely. And there's also 783 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 2: just like a lot of arguments that are happening about 784 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 2: Ben Fletcher actually, like nineteen ten, actually used to argue 785 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,799 Speaker 2: for the centralization of the IWW. But as it becomes 786 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: a more experienced organizer or is, it becomes more invested 787 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:17,919 Speaker 2: in Philly. But he's not even super invested Philly, because 788 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 2: he's going around all over the place, right, he starts 789 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 2: arguing more and more for decentralization, and so it's also 790 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: this defense of decentralization. Yeah, much like the decentralized system 791 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 2: that comes up with advertising for this show, over which 792 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,240 Speaker 2: we also have very little control. 793 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 3: I snuck up on me. 794 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's because I realized how far in the timestamp 795 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 2: we were. Here's ads and we're back. So basically, the 796 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 2: Wobblies suspend Local eight and for a year Local aid 797 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 2: to suspended, and then locally AI it's like fine, whatever, 798 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 2: will drop it, and they lower their their membership fee. 799 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 2: Then they rejoin the IWW. Ben Fletcher holds that even 800 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 2: this fuckery was the result of Bolshevik interference, which is 801 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 2: hard to prove, but some of this stuff is very real. 802 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 2: Looking at the US left, the two biggest forces are 803 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 2: the IWW, which is a bit smaller and way fightier 804 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 2: but also very democratic, and the AFL, which is moderate, 805 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 2: not even anti capitalists, but larger and more generally hierarchical. 806 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 2: Lenin backs the power hungry guy supports the Power Group, 807 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 2: and at this point, again according to Ben Fletcher, but 808 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 2: knowing Lenin, I half expect he wrote in it self somewhere, 809 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 2: and it's like kind of implied in that Lenin piece 810 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 2: Left communism and infantile disorder, where Lenin gets mad at communists. 811 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 2: Ben says, at this point Lenin is trying to destroy 812 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 2: the IWW, and Local eight is a very logical place 813 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,359 Speaker 2: to start, because the other thing that's happening Local eight 814 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:58,280 Speaker 2: might be the biggest and most powerful part of the IWW. Really, 815 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 2: I have read a thing that specifically says that it 816 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 2: does the like, huh, I want to read more sources 817 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: about that before I feel strong saying that. You know, 818 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 2: but the final destruction of Local eight was in the 819 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 2: autumn of nineteen twenty two. They were still fighting for 820 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 2: the eight hour workday, and they decided to strike. And 821 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 2: they did this strike in the classic wobbly fashion. They 822 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 2: just showed up an hour late rather than negotiating with 823 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 2: the bosses ahead of time. And when you're like on 824 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 2: top of your shit, this is like a really good 825 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 2: power move. Yeah, the balance of power had shifted. The 826 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 2: bosses locked them out of work, and instead of bringing 827 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,799 Speaker 2: in non union strike breakers, the bosses brought in can 828 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 2: you guess. 829 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 3: Is it AFL strike breakers? 830 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 2: They did? They brought in union strike breakers. 831 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 3: Fuck yeah, union strike breakers. They had union strike breakers. Yeah, 832 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 833 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 2: It's basically at this point, the bosses, the government, the AFL, 834 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 2: and the fucking Bolsheviks are all trying to destroy a 835 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:10,240 Speaker 2: four thousand member fucking inter racial union in Philly. 836 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 3: I like, how do you, as an AFL aligned worker, Like, 837 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 3: how do you fucking sleep at night? As a union scab? 838 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 2: You know. It's like they're just like, we're gonna make 839 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 2: this a union thing, but it'll be for us instead, 840 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 2: you know. 841 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 3: Oh God, what they should have done is kicked their 842 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 3: own asses. 843 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and basically the union fell. ILA workers from New 844 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 2: York came in and it lost the monopoly on hiring militants, 845 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,919 Speaker 2: were blacklisted, and most importantly, unity between black and white 846 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,480 Speaker 2: workers was gone for basically good or for decades at 847 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 2: least in Philadelphia because they absolutely AFL also played racial 848 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 2: like tensions against everything, and like you start getting these 849 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 2: like splits where whatever I wrote it out down and 850 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 2: then I was like, I'm not keeping track of all 851 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 2: of that. After the ILA broke Local eight, the bosses 852 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 2: immediately turned on the ILA too. 853 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 3: Oh no way, I know. 854 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:17,880 Speaker 2: I voted for the leopards eating other people's faces. 855 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 3: Party can't believe the bosses didn't show loyalty to their 856 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 3: workers at the expense of their own finances. 857 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 2: What even though we're union, we're supposed to know that. 858 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,720 Speaker 3: Oh, my god, I'm so mad. 859 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 2: I know, I know. For years the docs were ununionized. 860 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 2: It was only in nineteen twenty eight that the ISLA, 861 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 2: which was at this point joined by former local aid organizers. 862 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 2: Because people are like, Ben's a wobbly to his core, right, yeah, 863 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 2: or he's an industrial unionist to his core, he actually 864 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 2: forms a in part of the splits, they like, form 865 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 2: this other thing at some point that I'm not going 866 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 2: to get into. But overall people are like, I'm a 867 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 2: union organizer, I'm a doctor. I want a union here. 868 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 2: This is what exists, right, And so former local aid 869 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 2: organizers eventually end up joining the ILA, and they won 870 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 2: the eight hour day and they unionized the docks. But 871 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,040 Speaker 2: within only a couple of years, the ILA lost all 872 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 2: pretensive workers democracy and became corrupt. The way it was 873 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 2: phrased is like there were no longer contested elections h 874 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 2: within it, the workplace was segregated into racial picnics were 875 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 2: a distant and fading memory. And this didn't stop the 876 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 2: IWW nationally, and it didn't stop Ben Fletcher in the 877 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 2: changing landscape of the nineteen twenties. Ben actually started off 878 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 2: like really early in nineteen twenties before all this shit 879 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 2: kind of started going down. He started off willing to 880 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 2: work with the Communist Party. Right, he doesn't have a 881 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 2: label besides industrial unionist, right that I've been able to 882 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 2: figure out. 883 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 884 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 3: Well, and the Communist Party hadn't done like ninety percent 885 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 3: of the bad things the Communist Party would go on 886 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 3: to do. 887 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. He was one of the principal speakers at the 888 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,719 Speaker 2: first American Negro Labor Congress that was put on by 889 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 2: the Communist Party USA, And originally he was apparently slated 890 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 2: to be the leader of the an LC, but a 891 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 2: more solidly Communist like with a capital C, black man 892 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 2: named Lovett Fort Whiteman blocked it from happening. And the 893 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 2: history that I read seemed to sum it up as 894 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 2: a like epigmism, right, like I want to be the 895 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 2: black guy, but I don't. I don't buy it because 896 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 2: it's about a black organization within the Communist Party. 897 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 3: Right, it's a black organization. It's not like. 898 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,840 Speaker 2: There's Yeah, I think it is far more likely that 899 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 2: love It was just a party line guy and knew 900 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 2: that Ben was not. Ben was hard to pigeonhole ideologically. 901 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 2: He was a socialist in the broadest sense, but not 902 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 2: the political party sense. He was friends with anarchists and 903 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,239 Speaker 2: socialists and syndicalists. He was also anti communist in that 904 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 2: he was anti Bolshevik. He was, if anything else, a wobbly. 905 00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 2: I know I've already said this, but it's in the 906 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 2: script of like Free I've just said it randomly before 907 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:03,440 Speaker 2: and I was in the scripts. 908 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 3: So just going forward, Sure, wobbled to his core. 909 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy who blocked him love at Fort Whiteman. 910 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 2: He died in the way that more or less all tankies. 911 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 3: Die murdered by communists. 912 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 2: He was He was murdered by communists. 913 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 3: Surprisingly common cause of death among communists. 914 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,839 Speaker 2: I think Nazis and Communists are like just going neck 915 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 2: and neck about who's killed more Communists. He moved to 916 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 2: the USSR and then he was accused of being a 917 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 2: Trotskyist and was caught up in the Great Purge, sent 918 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 2: off to Siberia, where he died of malnutrition in a 919 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 2: war camp. 920 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:38,439 Speaker 1: Damn. 921 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 2: And I like genuinely feel sorry for this man, right, 922 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,760 Speaker 2: But it's like because people didn't know the Great Purge 923 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 2: was coming, but like they were watching lots of little 924 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 2: purges and they were participating in lots of fuckery. 925 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,160 Speaker 3: Right, but like the fuckery of you know, taking leadership 926 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 3: of this American organization, like that is a level of 927 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 3: fuckery that is like, eh, sucks. But okay, yeah, you 928 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 3: do not deserve to die in Siberia. 929 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 2: For that, now, Jesus, absolutely not. 930 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 3: But if you're a communist, people deserve to die in 931 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:07,840 Speaker 3: Siberia for pretty much anything. 932 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 2: I know, especially communists deserved to die in Siberia. Ben himself, 933 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 2: he falls out of the Communists pretty quick as he 934 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,879 Speaker 2: starts to realize they're trying to take the IWW over. 935 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,359 Speaker 2: He stays very active with the Wobbles until his death. Well, 936 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,399 Speaker 2: his health starts failing him, but he's like he never leaves, right, 937 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 2: He's less and less of an organizer for many years, 938 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,480 Speaker 2: he remains a powerful speaker. Sometime in the nineteen twenties, 939 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,839 Speaker 2: he and his first wife divorced. In nineteen thirty one, 940 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 2: he moved to New York City, where he participated in 941 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,279 Speaker 2: the black political socialist stuff that was happening there in 942 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties. In nineteen thirty three, he suffered a 943 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 2: stroke and never recovered his health. At some point in 944 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties, he married his second wife, a black 945 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 2: woman named Clara. No one is sure what work he 946 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,520 Speaker 2: did after he left the docks. Some folks say he 947 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 2: sold hand rolled cigars. Others say that he was a 948 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 2: janitor or maybe a building super. I think is entirely 949 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 2: possibly did all of these things. He seemed to have 950 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,840 Speaker 2: been happy in his later years. He was surrounded by family, 951 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 2: he was hanging out with his anarchist friends and old wobbles. 952 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 2: His health never recovered, and he died at age fifty 953 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 2: nine in nineteen forty nine, and the author Robin Kelly 954 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,480 Speaker 2: I think sums him up well. Ben Fletcher believed in 955 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 2: the working class in its capacity to win. He never 956 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 2: wavered from his belief that capitalism would come to an end, 957 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 2: but only an organized working class could end it. A 958 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,480 Speaker 2: truly organized working class would have to eliminate all vestiges 959 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 2: of racism and xenophobia, redirecting our collective anger towards the 960 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,240 Speaker 2: capitalist class. His was not a blind optimism, a naive 961 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,320 Speaker 2: belief that persuasive arguments could wipe away color, prejudice and 962 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 2: unite the proletariat. Rather, he knew our survival depended on 963 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,799 Speaker 2: the overthrow of capitalism, and Ben himself sums up his 964 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 2: political beliefs, at least around race and things like that 965 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 2: very well himself. Quote, no genuine attempt by organized labor 966 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 2: to rest any worthwhile in lasting concessions from the employing 967 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 2: class can succeed as long as organized labor, for the 968 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 2: most part, is indifferent and in opposition to the fate 969 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 2: of Negro labor. He had respect from both like kind 970 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,759 Speaker 2: of separate ven diagram spheres right of like socialism and 971 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 2: industrial unionism and anarchism and stuff cyndicalism, as well as 972 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,160 Speaker 2: the black community and not just the black leftist community. 973 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,360 Speaker 2: He was a very important person talking about race in 974 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 2: America at the time, and that's like the other thing 975 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,439 Speaker 2: that history is forgotten. Right. 976 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 977 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,320 Speaker 2: After he died, a conservative black owned newspaper called the 978 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,399 Speaker 2: Atlanta Daily World called him, quote one of the most 979 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,280 Speaker 2: brilliant negroes ever associated with a leftist organization. 980 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,480 Speaker 3: So when even the conservatives have to say nice things 981 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,560 Speaker 3: about you, you're probably doing great. 982 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, that's Ben Fletcher. That's the there's a couple 983 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 2: figures that I would just like interject into the history books. Yeah, 984 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,320 Speaker 2: you know, and obviously there's a show about figures that 985 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 2: I believe should be interjected in the history books. But 986 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,239 Speaker 2: there's like two levels of it, right, There's a way 987 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,359 Speaker 2: that like old black radicals are erased from everyone who 988 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,240 Speaker 2: isn't studying black radicalism, and like old anarchists are erased 989 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 2: from everyone who isn't studying anarchism. And then there's the 990 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 2: people who are like erased from those histories too, yeah, 991 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 2: or rather not included. And I think a lot of 992 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,320 Speaker 2: it is the one too of being both black and leftist, 993 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:35,640 Speaker 2: you know. 994 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:37,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 995 00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 2: And also that he like wasn't a like man of letters, 996 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 2: you know. I mean he wrote a lot, right, I. 997 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,400 Speaker 3: Mean, but he was like a he was a worker, 998 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 3: Like he really was doing this on the ground organizing 999 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,400 Speaker 3: because he was actually working in these places. He wasn't 1000 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 3: coming in to make a speech. 1001 00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:56,759 Speaker 2: It was socialism with his work and pants on. 1002 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, he had his working pants on the whole time. 1003 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:01,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1004 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,719 Speaker 3: He's amazing and I'm so happy to know about him 1005 00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 3: and about this organizing that he was a part of, 1006 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,680 Speaker 3: because yeah, I had no idea about Local eight or 1007 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 3: about any of that. That was amazing. 1008 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. All I knew is like because I had read 1009 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 2: I've read mostly about the IWW out west, just because 1010 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,400 Speaker 2: Hobos and the Mexican Revolution are two things that I 1011 00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 2: care a lot about and I've read a lot about, 1012 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,520 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, but I'd always like known. I was like, oh, 1013 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,320 Speaker 2: and then there was like a ton of black wobblies 1014 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 2: on the East coast doing doc work stuff. That was 1015 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 2: like what I knew? You know? 1016 00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think all I knew was that when the 1017 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 3: waterfront would try to get organized, a big thing that 1018 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:41,759 Speaker 3: the bosses would do would be to bring in black 1019 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:46,839 Speaker 3: strike breakers when white unions were organizing. And I never 1020 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,080 Speaker 3: knew about a situation where people had actually successfully prevented 1021 00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:54,440 Speaker 3: that by having a union that represented everybody. 1022 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:55,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1023 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 3: That rules. 1024 00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,319 Speaker 2: It's a cool idea, and it's one that people can 1025 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 2: continue to do. Yeah, because capitalism is kind of trying 1026 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 2: to kill us all. 1027 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 3: Oh, it's it's doing its best. 1028 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, guy, anything you want to plug. 1029 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 3: As you mentioned on the last episode, if people want 1030 00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 3: to hear more of me, they can come on over 1031 00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,080 Speaker 3: to live like the world is dying on strangers in 1032 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:28,360 Speaker 3: a tangled wilderness. 1033 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:29,400 Speaker 2: Hell yeah. 1034 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,520 Speaker 3: When I first started guesting on this podcast, I was 1035 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 3: very proud to be like the only guest who is like, no, 1036 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 3: I don't have anything to plug on nobody, but like 1037 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,520 Speaker 3: around podcasters too long, you just acquire, just like you 1038 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,879 Speaker 3: just acquire things to plug. They got me so. 1039 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,719 Speaker 2: Real, We got you a mic and it was over. 1040 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 3: I will have to eventually let you turn me into 1041 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 3: a vampire. I've already let you turn me into a podcast. 1042 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,640 Speaker 2: Or you know. Hell yeah, that's what the red card 1043 00:52:56,680 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 2: of the Wobblings is, is the vampire card. No, oh, 1044 00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,600 Speaker 2: oh my god. I've always held that I would be 1045 00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,360 Speaker 2: morally I'm incredibly squeamish, but I would absolutely become a 1046 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,160 Speaker 2: vampire if I was offered the choice, because I feel 1047 00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 2: like I have a moral obligation to like become very 1048 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:14,360 Speaker 2: powerful immortal with which to fight the owning class. 1049 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 3: I think you can come up with whatever political justification 1050 00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 3: you want, Magpie. 1051 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,080 Speaker 2: I agree. No, I don't actually want to be a 1052 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,719 Speaker 2: vampire than that blood is so gross. Yeah, but you are. 1053 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,840 Speaker 3: The gothist person I know, and not just like I 1054 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,120 Speaker 3: mean I know people who like visually, like walking down 1055 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 3: the street, you'd be like, oh, that person is more goth, 1056 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:37,759 Speaker 3: Like they're wearing more black, they have more eyeliner, But 1057 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,320 Speaker 3: like you are goth in your soul. And if offered 1058 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,200 Speaker 3: the opportunity to be a vampire, I just don't see 1059 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:46,719 Speaker 3: you being able to turn it down. 1060 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't be able to turn it down. One 1061 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,360 Speaker 2: of my friends tried to name my house Dracula Factory, 1062 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 2: and I was like, what is why that doesn't I 1063 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,239 Speaker 2: don't get it. And then like one night I was 1064 00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,640 Speaker 2: like walking through my hallway where I have electric candelabra 1065 00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:01,760 Speaker 2: that come on at eight pm every night and flicker 1066 00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,960 Speaker 2: w Wisconsins, not Candelabrum, and I was like, oh, oh, 1067 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,279 Speaker 2: I get it. I figured it out. Yeah, that's it's 1068 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,600 Speaker 2: called like workers come over to like help me with 1069 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,720 Speaker 2: my plumbing. And there's like the corner of my house 1070 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,080 Speaker 2: that's a stone wall covered in axes. But that's because 1071 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 2: I'm cool. 1072 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's you have I think a standard number of 1073 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 3: battle axes. 1074 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, three, three is true? One two? Yeah, we have 1075 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:29,840 Speaker 2: three battle axes. 1076 00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:30,839 Speaker 1: Only three? 1077 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,279 Speaker 2: I mean batle axes. You all have one? Okay, okay, I. 1078 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,400 Speaker 3: Mean I have none, and that's a problem. 1079 00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,760 Speaker 2: Well, you did give me a flail with a spiked 1080 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:43,439 Speaker 2: ball on it. 1081 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,880 Speaker 3: I did, I mean, because that was yours. Like I 1082 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,680 Speaker 3: came across it and was like, well, this belongs to Margaret. 1083 00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 3: I don't know what it's doing here. I have to 1084 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,120 Speaker 3: get it to Margaret. 1085 00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 2: Okay, what do I want to plug? At the end? 1086 00:54:56,040 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 2: I want to plug two things. One swords. Why not 1087 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 2: own a sword? There's no reason not to. There's so 1088 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,120 Speaker 2: many reasons not to. But do any of them really matter? 1089 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:08,839 Speaker 2: Not that I can think of. 1090 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,040 Speaker 3: I can't think of a single good reason not to 1091 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:11,960 Speaker 3: own a sword. 1092 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:17,320 Speaker 2: And join the IWW. Why not? What could go wrong? 1093 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,720 Speaker 2: It might not be the thing that unites the working class. 1094 00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 2: It's certainly not if you don't join it. So that's 1095 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:25,680 Speaker 2: what I gotta plug. 1096 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,080 Speaker 3: People with swords join the IWW, and people in the 1097 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 3: IWW acquire swords. 1098 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:36,920 Speaker 2: There you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, and listen to Weird 1099 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 2: Little Guys. 1100 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, listen to Weird Little Guys. Cool Zone Media's newest podcast. 1101 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,800 Speaker 1: It's a weekly show and it's hosted by Molly Conger 1102 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:47,880 Speaker 1: and it takes you behind the headlines to examines of 1103 00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,719 Speaker 1: the worst people on the planet that none of us 1104 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:51,520 Speaker 1: have ever heard of. 1105 00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:56,760 Speaker 2: Whoo the opposite of this show. But it's a good time. 1106 00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,799 Speaker 2: Oh No, I'm excited about it. I'm very excited about it. 1107 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,640 Speaker 3: I bet all of those shitty little guys' lives will 1108 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,480 Speaker 3: become a lot worse once people know about them. 1109 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:10,560 Speaker 2: So especially if they have swords. Wait, no, violence is wrong, illegal, 1110 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:15,839 Speaker 2: that's the word. The podcast is sober. Bye Bye Bye. 1111 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,040 Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of 1112 00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, 1113 00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:30,600 Speaker 1: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out 1114 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,040 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 1115 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:34,880 Speaker 1: your podcasts.