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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to Inside Tenderfooit TV. Today we're
Speaker 2: going inside to Die For and I'm sitting down with
Speaker 2: award winning author and journalist Neil Strauss, who's the creator
Speaker 2: and host of To Die For. I like, I imagine
Speaker 2: many of you went on quite a journey with this show,
Speaker 2: and I'm really looking forward to sitting down with him,
Speaker 2: talking to him about some of the behind the scenes
Speaker 2: that might be a little unexpected for listeners, and hearing
Speaker 2: more about his process and journey in building this show
Speaker 2: and telling Aleija's story. So, without further ado, welcome Neil
Speaker 2: to Inside tenderfoot TV and let's dive into it.
Speaker 3: Awesome. Thanks for having me on, Laura. I didn't tell
Speaker 3: you before we talked, but I definitely have like a
Speaker 3: lot of reluctance to do this interview, and I'm to
Speaker 3: tell you why.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, I think when we create a podcast, we're almost
Speaker 3: trying to create this magic spell that when you listen
Speaker 3: to it you're just drawn into the story through voice,
Speaker 3: through music, through the reporting. I'm not a fan of
Speaker 3: pulling back the curtain on that and breaking the spell,
Speaker 3: and it's not like it's magic, but there's something about
Speaker 3: the storytelling I think in this podcast and in so
Speaker 3: many Tenderfoot podcasts that makes it work. And I just
Speaker 3: I don't like demystifying it. But I'm going to do
Speaker 3: this and we'll see how it goes. No one has
Speaker 3: to listen, all right, stop now if you don't want
Speaker 3: to ruin it.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for going out on a limb.
Speaker 2: Then there's actually a great segue into your process working
Speaker 2: on this show in general. Can you talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about the production process itself and how you went
Speaker 2: about building To Die For.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's sort of a band, and the
Speaker 3: band is myself. Tristan Bankston, who worked on the second
Speaker 3: season of To Live and Die in LA with me,
Speaker 3: Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay is the producers and then
Speaker 3: make up in Vanity set MAVs, who is the composer,
Speaker 3: and then there's Dayton Cole who mixes it and makes
Speaker 3: it sound great. It's really like a garage band that
Speaker 3: puts this together. And one of the reasons I do
Speaker 3: these with Tenderfoot is that there's a lot of creative
Speaker 3: freedom within it to tell the story in the way
Speaker 3: that the story wants to be told, versus other podcast
Speaker 3: companies that seem to have a formula, and I hear
Speaker 3: so many frustrated creators where they are not able to
Speaker 3: share their experience because it has to be ground into
Speaker 3: the formula.
Speaker 2: Well, and with a story like Alyah as I imagine,
Speaker 2: there is so much discovery as you went through the
Speaker 2: process of talking to her that I couldn't even imagine
Speaker 2: trying to put her story into a formula. Can you
Speaker 2: share kind of what the journey was like for you
Speaker 2: from the what you expected at the beginning when you
Speaker 2: first heard about Aliah met her, and then just how
Speaker 2: things might have shifted over time and the process of
Speaker 2: interviewing her.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think for meeting Aliyah and the way she
Speaker 3: showed up at that first meeting, I really just thought
Speaker 3: it was gonna be like a spy movie but real life,
Speaker 3: and instead it was really about trauma and healing and
Speaker 3: her own experiences. The biggest danger wasn't the enemy the
Speaker 3: foreign country. The biggest danger was being a woman in
Speaker 3: a military system run by these predatory men with no
Speaker 3: accountability or consequences.
Speaker 2: As a listener, coming in with no expectations and no background,
Speaker 2: I was really surprised by the shift, like the from
Speaker 2: the first episode kind of the expectations I had to
Speaker 2: then where you end up. I really appreciated, actually that
Speaker 2: you talked about trauma informed interviewing, and I'm very curious
Speaker 2: to learn more about that. Can you talk a little
Speaker 2: bit about the training that you did for this interview
Speaker 2: process and how that was different from other interviews you've
Speaker 2: conducted in the past.
Speaker 3: Sure, I think that the interview was also not what
Speaker 3: Aleah expected. I think she expected the sizzle, glam stuff,
Speaker 3: And partly through studying trauma informed interviewing, we were able
Speaker 3: to create a safe space for her to really share
Speaker 3: her story. And I think that so much of healing
Speaker 3: is through sharing and being heard and being seen and
Speaker 3: being understood. And so as we started to realize that
Speaker 3: this was a story of not survival from people shooting
Speaker 3: at you, but survival from predatory, exploitative men in power,
Speaker 3: I realized I needed to really be thoughtful about the
Speaker 3: way I spoke to her and to be conscious of
Speaker 3: the experiences she's been through. So I studied trauma and
Speaker 3: form interviewing from a few places. I got to certified
Speaker 3: in it. There's something called the Peace Model for Interviewing
Speaker 3: I looked into and there's a great book for the
Speaker 3: World Health Organization called Psychological First Aid. That's great, and
Speaker 3: the importance is creating a safe, supportive environment that at
Speaker 3: least prevents them from being traumatized further will really allowing
Speaker 3: them to tell their story with their truth even throughout this.
Speaker 3: That went beyond the process and making sure that she's
Speaker 3: getting support throughout the process she needed. And I think
Speaker 3: she always said her memories were locked in Pandora's box.
Speaker 3: I think she even says it on the podcast. There's
Speaker 3: a saying what we repressed controls us, right, we will further,
Speaker 3: we will press it. It's like pushing back on a
Speaker 3: spring that eventually that's just gonna snap. And so whatever
Speaker 3: we're rere pressing eventually takes over, because that's how force works.
Speaker 3: But however, if we can set them free in a sense,
Speaker 3: to let them out in a way while we're getting healing,
Speaker 3: while we're getting supported at the same time, and integrate them,
Speaker 3: I guess integration is the word. We can lessen the
Speaker 3: charge and the power they have over her, and unexpectedly
Speaker 3: that's part of what the process created for Leah.
Speaker 4: That's really awesome.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that you've taken from that training that
Speaker 2: you've actually incorporated into your day to day life, not
Speaker 2: just in an interview setting.
Speaker 3: For sure? For sure, I mean think about it for
Speaker 3: being a parent, right as a parent, active empathic listening,
Speaker 3: valuing someone's feelings and experiences, not being judgmental, All those
Speaker 3: things make you a great parent or a great partner.
Speaker 3: Did it allow you because to be really pressing for
Speaker 3: someone else's reality. There's a quote I love that says
Speaker 3: listening is so close to being loved that some people
Speaker 3: can't tell the difference.
Speaker 4: Oh, I love that.
Speaker 3: It's great, right, So I think about that all the time.
Speaker 4: That's really beautiful.
Speaker 3: So so part of the traumaform listening was not about
Speaker 3: sitting down, And we did a lot of due diligence
Speaker 3: at the beginning as far as the least story, but
Speaker 3: in the end it wasn't to put her story on trial,
Speaker 3: and to put her narrative on trial. I thought maybe
Speaker 3: at the beginning was a possibility, but by the end,
Speaker 3: it really felt that that's not the job of this podcast.
Speaker 3: It's to really give someone the space to tell their
Speaker 3: story and to listen for the human being underneath it.
Speaker 2: That actually sort of points to something that I did
Speaker 2: want to ask you about, because you talk in the
Speaker 2: beginning about this dynamic of you know, her using like
Speaker 2: certain tactics that pickup artists had used, and that you
Speaker 2: had this kind of fear of being played. And by
Speaker 2: the end of it, that's completely gone from the tone
Speaker 2: of the podcast and from the tone of her telling
Speaker 2: her story. And I would love to know if there was,
Speaker 2: you know, a moment that you shifted over from what's
Speaker 2: going on? Is she for real? Into this is definitely real?
Speaker 2: That was a very leading question.
Speaker 3: But so I was curs about that question, so I
Speaker 3: called it on the podcast. I called Chris Vall, who's
Speaker 3: a good friend, has helped with the other podcasts, who
Speaker 3: is the famous FBI negotiator and he wrote the book
Speaker 3: Never Split the Difference, And Chris, I said, how many
Speaker 3: times have people asked you to prove whether you're really
Speaker 3: in the FBI or not? You just say it? Who knows?
Speaker 3: And he goes never. Maybe once someone jokingly at a bar.
Speaker 3: But that's about That's it, And like, well, how interesting
Speaker 3: is this that here's a woman saying this and presenting
Speaker 3: herself in a clamorous way on Instagram and all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, everyone's prove it, you're lying, you're fake And
Speaker 3: would it be the same it was a male of
Speaker 3: you know, in a suit who presented another way, and
Speaker 3: I don't think it would be And so I thought,
Speaker 3: I don't want to be part of that part of
Speaker 3: the culture. And this speaks to creating a safe space.
Speaker 3: We got to know who she really is. And at
Speaker 3: the end, she literally says like, I create this fake world,
Speaker 3: in this fake life on Instagram because a I want
Speaker 3: to please my father and show him that I was
Speaker 3: a success in life. And so there's still that child
Speaker 3: trying to please the parents. So many of us have
Speaker 3: this on some degree, right or our family message becomes
Speaker 3: what we think are life purpose is. The second thing
Speaker 3: also is just feeling like she won. When you go
Speaker 3: through these really disempowering experiences, there's a need to empower
Speaker 3: yourself and to feel empowered because so often in these
Speaker 3: stories there isn't a happy ending, and so maybe we
Speaker 3: make one or create one. Or do something that allows
Speaker 3: us to go on living right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really appreciated in the I think it
Speaker 2: was the final episode, had you brought her therapist back
Speaker 2: in and she talked about that. She talked about the
Speaker 2: aspirational element of social media, which, to be honest as
Speaker 2: a listener, kind of blew my mind open because we
Speaker 2: do employ all these judgments and all this kind of
Speaker 2: criticism to how people present online. And it was really
Speaker 2: interest staying to have that perspective brought in of look
Speaker 2: at this through a trauma lens. So yeah, I just
Speaker 2: wanted to call that out and give you kudos and
Speaker 2: give the whole team kudos because it was really cool
Speaker 2: to have a perspective shift.
Speaker 3: I also think in terms of narratives, it's interesting to
Speaker 3: hear read the reviews. For example, I really love reading
Speaker 3: the reviews, positive or negative. They give me really valuable data. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I really look at reviews as a valuable source of
Speaker 3: feedback about what's working and what's not working. And I
Speaker 3: thought a lot about narrative during the telling of this,
Speaker 3: and I think everybody, everybody has three forms of narrative
Speaker 3: they're telling, or there's three forms of truth in any story.
Speaker 3: One layer is what really happened, what a camera would
Speaker 3: have recorded if a camera was there. In the second
Speaker 3: layer is what we remember happening. Some people are really
Speaker 3: extreme in the stories they tell themselves. Other people are
Speaker 3: semi close to the truth. Other people are always the
Speaker 3: hero in their own own story. Other people are always
Speaker 3: the victim in their own story. Other people are whatever,
Speaker 3: always the one who's forgotten about, always the one who
Speaker 3: led the group. You know, people have their own way
Speaker 3: of their own filter through which they see themselves or
Speaker 3: almost need to see themselves to prop their ego up.
Speaker 3: So there's what really happened objectively, what we remember happening.
Speaker 3: And then the third layer is then what we tell
Speaker 3: other people. And that layer is that mask we wear
Speaker 3: for social acceptance. And some people there that second and
Speaker 3: third layer close. Some people they're more distant. So every
Speaker 3: story has those three layers, no matter what, right And
Speaker 3: the question is what is the gulf of separation between
Speaker 3: those three layers. And maybe when we're do investigation or something,
Speaker 3: we're trying to figure that out. Right, So a witness
Speaker 3: may have a false memory and the perpetrator may straight
Speaker 3: up be putting on the mask. So I find memory
Speaker 3: story narrative really fascinating, and a Lee is sort of
Speaker 3: like a very lightning rod for this in some ways
Speaker 3: because she shows on Instagram things that really.
Speaker 4: Aren't real, right, right, Oh that's so interesting.
Speaker 3: And those are all the things that kind of went
Speaker 3: on in my head through this, just trying to see
Speaker 3: the commandity and people instead of objectifying.
Speaker 2: Them, right, absolutely, Yeah, especially when you're talking to somebody
Speaker 2: who's so much of their experience has been acting as
Speaker 2: an object, right, being objectified, And yeah, I just.
Speaker 4: I don't even know what.
Speaker 3: To say what we're about to say.
Speaker 2: I just appreciate that nuance, and I appreciate you know,
Speaker 2: pointing out compassion as the first lens that you look
Speaker 2: at anyone through. I think, is it's so important, and
Speaker 2: like you're saying, we live in a very judgmental world,
Speaker 2: and definitely for me as a listener, like there is
Speaker 2: this tension between that presentational element and then the vulnerability
Speaker 2: of her story. And like I said, I'm really glad
Speaker 2: you took a full sixteen episodes and the story shifted
Speaker 2: as much as it did, because it felt like these
Speaker 2: layers and I definitely had doubts that I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people share it in the beginning because it's
Speaker 2: natural to be a little bit uncertain.
Speaker 4: And then by the time.
Speaker 2: Aliah's like really, she gets very emotional, you know. And
Speaker 2: I was amazed at the journey that she took that
Speaker 2: I felt like I could follow along with her as
Speaker 2: she opened up and it was just really powerful. So
Speaker 2: what was the timeline of recording? And you said you
Speaker 2: had about thirty or forty hours.
Speaker 4: Of raw interview?
Speaker 3: Maybe more wow?
Speaker 4: Maybe more wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a super thora interview or her in the
Speaker 3: sense that I really do, because I care. I really
Speaker 3: want to know everything, whether we use it or not.
Speaker 3: And so a year and a half ago, I think
Speaker 3: it was January. It was when I've first met her,
Speaker 3: and then we got together, we discussed doing the podcast.
Speaker 3: I talked to Donald a tenderfoot about it, and then
Speaker 3: we just started recording just her story and sitting down
Speaker 3: day after day and time and time again. And sometimes
Speaker 3: when she'd share these stories, it got so quiet you
Speaker 3: could hear like a pin dropping. And that's why I
Speaker 3: tried this experiment on episode fifteen. I don't know if
Speaker 3: you noticed when you're listening, I'm curious if you did.
Speaker 3: On episode fifteen, I did no voice over. I just
Speaker 3: let her tell her story without any interruption, and only
Speaker 3: at the end did I say, you've been listening to
Speaker 3: chapter this, episode this, and so I wanted just to
Speaker 3: hear her voice, let her speak, and just stay out
Speaker 3: of it. And I think most people listening may not
Speaker 3: have missed me.
Speaker 2: I didn't consciously notice that, but I'm sure that I
Speaker 2: noticed it in part of observing this shift, you know,
Speaker 2: like that's definitely a deepening of her presence, I guess,
Speaker 2: which is an odd word to use, but it felt
Speaker 2: like she got more and more present.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I felt like, I really, when I do
Speaker 3: these as the storyteller, I try to think what hasn't
Speaker 3: been done? And I've never heard so for Tristan and I,
Speaker 3: it was like a really exciting experiment, I think on
Speaker 3: a deeper level, discussing trauma informed interviewing and everything we said,
Speaker 3: just allowing someone to tell their story without jumping in
Speaker 3: and explaining.
Speaker 2: So you started a year and a half ago, you said,
Speaker 2: so was the interview process over three months? Six months longer?
Speaker 2: You talked about taking a break for a while when
Speaker 2: she was going through a really intense moment in therapy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but the interview process probably went on the whole time,
Speaker 3: So whatever what you heard in the last episode was
Speaker 3: recorded in the week or two before the last episode dropped.
Speaker 4: Oh wow.
Speaker 3: And that's the other thing I love about the podcast
Speaker 3: I've done with Tenderfoot is they're all very live and
Speaker 3: in the moment. Like with the first season of To
Speaker 3: Live and Die in La, that investigation was ongoing, even
Speaker 3: with the police. As each episode is coming out, right,
Speaker 3: there were parts, I don't want to say anything people
Speaker 3: haven't listened, but there are parts where very intense things happen,
Speaker 3: and those literally happen between one week of the podcast
Speaker 3: and the next week.
Speaker 2: I mean, it feels very alive, so it translates to
Speaker 2: the storytelling component of it as a recorded piece as.
Speaker 3: Well, exactly. And I think there's an element of that
Speaker 3: that transfers into it, of it being very alive and
Speaker 3: being very present. I used to be a music critic
Speaker 3: in the New York Times, so I'd see bands play,
Speaker 3: and when the band stopped getting along and still play
Speaker 3: this music, it didn't sound as good anymore. It's the
Speaker 3: same songs, the same notes, the same lyrics, and yet
Speaker 3: because it's not alive in them, it ends up sounding.
Speaker 2: Lifeless given the kind of top secret nature of a
Speaker 2: lot of what she's talking about. I know that, you know,
Speaker 2: Alia changes the names of people and doesn't really disclose
Speaker 2: exact people places, things in a way that I guess
Speaker 2: would be incriminating. But she is speaking out about the
Speaker 2: system that is very corrupt at a time that political
Speaker 2: tensions are very high. I'm curious to hear, you know,
Speaker 2: if she expressed any concerns about her safety as she
Speaker 2: was going deeper into this story and kind of unveiling more,
Speaker 2: and also if you experienced any internal concerns around being
Speaker 2: present within this kind of espionage world that she's talking
Speaker 2: about that's also very alive.
Speaker 3: Very much true. So I definitely, I definitely think that
Speaker 3: I don't know why I do this, but I think
Speaker 3: everything I do, a lot of what I've done in
Speaker 3: the past, there's a danger element. If you're outing a
Speaker 3: murder or someone who conspired with the murder, there's a danger.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I've done folks with really dangerous people, projects on really
Speaker 3: dangerous things that I absolutely should not be doing. And
Speaker 3: so for sure, while I was doing this, especially at
Speaker 3: the beginning, I had a lot of nervousness she had
Speaker 3: some nervousness, and however, I think it's interesting, especially with
Speaker 3: this podcast and the narratives people tell versus the truth
Speaker 3: and the idea is well, she's talking about that she'd
Speaker 3: be killed, and I think her thought was, all this
Speaker 3: stuff happened around the year two thousand. I'm not mentioning names.
Speaker 3: I'm not revealing state secrets. I'm not saying anti Putin,
Speaker 3: anti Ukraine war things. Maybe a touch, but nothing more
Speaker 3: than everyone else is saying. And so I'm not a
Speaker 3: threat to power. It's different than other people who are
Speaker 3: speaking out with the intent to overthrow the Putin or
Speaker 3: overthrow the regime or create systemic change there. So I
Speaker 3: think her thought was because I'm not revealing sensitive information,
Speaker 3: because I'm not a threat to what's happening, it's okay.
Speaker 3: And there are other former KGB agents who speak out,
Speaker 3: who've written books. Jack Barski is one of them who's
Speaker 3: out here and doing podcasts, and that's okay. So I
Speaker 3: think her thought was, I'm just talking about stuff that
Speaker 3: people don't talk about, but I'm not sharing something it's
Speaker 3: a threat to those currently in power. I think, if anything,
Speaker 3: everyone else in the podcast, who I interviewed as guest
Speaker 3: was more negative about things and reveal more and through
Speaker 3: all these voices and experts, I really feel like the
Speaker 3: listener and myself learned so much about Russia and the
Speaker 3: Russian mafia and the Russian military and the way of
Speaker 3: thinking Putin has. So I feel like I was such
Speaker 3: an education for me researching all the context. I probably
Speaker 3: like consumed like at least ten twenty history books along
Speaker 3: the way. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about how you found
Speaker 2: the people that you brought onto the show? Because I
Speaker 2: loved having all of these experts pop in, and I
Speaker 2: felt like you did a great job of whenever Aleah
Speaker 2: would say something that was kind of hard to believe
Speaker 2: at first, you know, like you would immediately bring in
Speaker 2: somebody who would back that up and be like, yes,
Speaker 2: these actually structures do exist, or this something that we
Speaker 2: know happened. How did you find the people that you
Speaker 2: ended up bringing in as these experts?
Speaker 3: First of all, thanks for saying that. I really did
Speaker 3: feel that there were Each episode ended up having a theme,
Speaker 3: and then I wanted a deeper understanding of that theme.
Speaker 3: So whether it was bringing in Holly McKay, a war reporter,
Speaker 3: to talk about women's treatment in the Russian military, or
Speaker 3: bringing in the different Russian mafia experts to talk about that. Literally,
Speaker 3: when you talk about the Russian government, you talk about
Speaker 3: the mafia, you're kind of talking about the same thing.
Speaker 3: That was just shocking. It was shocking, but it's funny
Speaker 3: because when it sounded incredible that the Russian is training
Speaker 3: these seducers, I realized that having written that book The
Speaker 3: Game many years ago, that I forgot or didn't make
Speaker 3: the connection till I started thinking about it, that the
Speaker 3: FBI had brought me in many years ago to train
Speaker 3: them in seductions. Uh huh, And that could sound preposterous. However, However,
Speaker 3: I called someone who was there at that train, Robin Drake,
Speaker 3: and just had him confirm I was there, because that's
Speaker 3: a that's a hard one to swallow.
Speaker 2: And you didn't trust your memory because it might.
Speaker 3: Have been exactly change exactly. So I had him confirm it,
Speaker 3: and then he became such a great expert to call
Speaker 3: on throughout the podcast. So while you're working on a project,
Speaker 3: or while I'm working on a project, I try to
Speaker 3: talk about it everywhere I go with everyone I meet,
Speaker 3: because you never know when a resource is going to
Speaker 3: pop up. And so I'd be out at a conference
Speaker 3: and meet somebody used to be in the CIA, and
Speaker 3: I'd say, what do you know about these Russian swallows?
Speaker 3: And he'd tell me something. I'd be great. Can I
Speaker 3: call you back about that? I mean, my transcriber who
Speaker 3: was transcribing the audio said, oh my god, I used
Speaker 3: to work for a secret aerospace program where they trained
Speaker 3: us and warned us about these type of women. So
Speaker 3: I think by just putting your antenna out there, all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, the information starts coming to you. And sometimes,
Speaker 3: of course, if I couldn't find someone saying expert on poisonings,
Speaker 3: I just research online and try to find some great
Speaker 3: people to interview. But I was so grateful for those
Speaker 3: speakers because they brought such important context to it, and
Speaker 3: I think that was part of the narrative. Is just
Speaker 3: you're learning so much and not even realizing you're learning it.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Are you allowed to share anything about your training with
Speaker 2: the FBI in seduction or.
Speaker 3: Is that yeah? I can't think I can try it. No,
Speaker 3: I asked them. I asked them, and they said, I
Speaker 3: can share it. I just can't share where I went
Speaker 3: to do the training all right, So basically what they
Speaker 3: do is the same as a seduction, but just the
Speaker 3: outcome is different. So the outcome is not a relationship
Speaker 3: or a romantic experience or a physical experience. Their outcome
Speaker 3: is how do I get this person to be an
Speaker 3: informant on their boss?
Speaker 1: Ah?
Speaker 3: Okay, how do I get this personal work for our
Speaker 3: governments s out of that? But the process is the same,
Speaker 3: which is you're meeting someone, You're building trust, You're trying
Speaker 3: to understand what their value system is so you can
Speaker 3: speak to them in terms of what their values are.
Speaker 3: And then when you built enough trust and rapport and connection,
Speaker 3: you're starting to plant the seed for the offer you're making.
Speaker 3: So what I've discovered was there's really very little difference
Speaker 3: and these pickup artists who I wrote about in the game,
Speaker 3: because they did it so much like had as sophisticated
Speaker 3: a knowledge of human behavior as the FBI's behavioral analysis units. Right,
Speaker 3: these guys are talking to whatever, five, ten, fifteen people
Speaker 3: a night versus you have one target and that's a
Speaker 3: one year project or something or a three year project.
Speaker 3: So it was very surreal, it's very serial. It's definitely
Speaker 3: the last thing I expected when I wrote that book,
Speaker 3: but then it made me realize it's not ludicrous. A
Speaker 3: government will do any means necessary that they can get
Speaker 3: away with to accomplish.
Speaker 2: Their objective, right right, Like you said, it's studying human
Speaker 2: behavior more than seducing, almost like seducing is the word.
Speaker 3: But yeah, and yeah, and at the same time, like
Speaker 3: in the past for other projects, I've interviewed government psychics
Speaker 3: who were trained by the government like to do spying
Speaker 3: as psychic spies. That literally, that's like a real thing.
Speaker 3: It's not a conspiracy theory. It's called remote viewing.
Speaker 4: Remote viewing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember reading about that and thinking it was
Speaker 2: just so interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I went and got trained by the guys to
Speaker 3: learn how to remote view cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that should be another podcast.
Speaker 3: That should be another podcast. It was awesome. So the
Speaker 3: point being is any government won't try anything to see
Speaker 3: what works, right, whether it's induction or ESP.
Speaker 2: So with u Aliyah and with the pickup artists that
Speaker 2: you'd you know, worked with and interviewed, were there any
Speaker 2: times when she talked about these tactics that were either
Speaker 2: really similar or really different from the pickup artist tactics
Speaker 2: that you'd beenamiliar with before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was super weird because she'd be talking about
Speaker 3: things that she was doing as seduction techniques, and I
Speaker 3: was like, oh, wow, this was exactly what the pickup
Speaker 3: artists were doing. It was the exact same period of time,
Speaker 3: the early two thousands.
Speaker 2: Wow. Interesting. We were talking off Mike for a second
Speaker 2: and I was mentioning to Neil that there was actually
Speaker 2: a question that has been on my mind that I
Speaker 2: didn't want to put him on the spot about, and
Speaker 2: he said, put me on the spot. So one thing
Speaker 2: that came up for me a lot in listening to
Speaker 2: this podcast and learning about the way that information has
Speaker 2: been used by Russia to essentially, you know, brain rush
Speaker 2: and radicalize people. I was really reflecting a lot on
Speaker 2: what I've been seeing happening in the US. And I
Speaker 2: was hesitant to ask this question because I don't want
Speaker 2: it to be a divisive or super politicized question. But
Speaker 2: I'm curious if you, in the process of learning about
Speaker 2: how Russia's government works and how information can be used
Speaker 2: to kind of weaponize people against one another, if you
Speaker 2: reflected on that in the US, and you know, have
Speaker 2: any observations about that kind of radicalized thinking that Aliah
Speaker 2: talks so much about.
Speaker 3: For sure, there's a fault line in our society, and
Speaker 3: I think everyone can agree on that, and that for
Speaker 3: a government that wants to take down the US, the
Speaker 3: best way to do it is from the inside. And
Speaker 3: again there's interviews with Russian defectors who've been saying this
Speaker 3: for years, going back to and again haven't been killed.
Speaker 3: It's so much easier to destroy a country from the
Speaker 3: inside and everybody fighting each other and not focusing on
Speaker 3: the external. So it's one hundred percent happening. And even
Speaker 3: Aliyah said, and also someone I talked to from the
Speaker 3: CIA said as well, that there's so many people over
Speaker 3: here and that's their job to do this sort of
Speaker 3: there's even a name for it, but to do this
Speaker 3: kind of sabotage from the inside. And so I think
Speaker 3: I really learned that a there are a lot of
Speaker 3: people we meet who are just ordinary people living here
Speaker 3: who report back to handlers and talk about what they're hearing.
Speaker 3: They're called eyes and ears. Then the ore the people
Speaker 3: here who are actively creating relationships with other people and
Speaker 3: in power and putting these ideas in their head and
Speaker 3: fanning the flames of division and discontent and then absolutely
Speaker 3: they're softwares and armies of individuals who are creating this
Speaker 3: on social media. It's such a effective way to hurt
Speaker 3: a country from the inside and no one checks. You
Speaker 3: see these news reports that are covering an issue and
Speaker 3: they just quote Twitter accounts, not even knowing if these
Speaker 3: are real people or what's called sock puppet accounts.
Speaker 2: Right, especially with our election cycle, what do you recommend
Speaker 2: for people to, I guess be aware, but not necessarily
Speaker 2: be completely afraid of what you just said.
Speaker 3: I asked someone who runs a social media company what
Speaker 3: countries were responsible for the most fake propaganda accounts and
Speaker 3: fake sabotage accounts, and the three were, not surprisingly China, Iran,
Speaker 3: and Russia. But even if they're real people, it's only
Speaker 3: a specific kind of person who posts a lot of
Speaker 3: activity on social media. I haven't mete you, Laura, but
Speaker 3: I know you don't, and so what you're hearing is
Speaker 3: a people who are working out their trauma through social
Speaker 3: media or b countries that are working out their domination
Speaker 3: land through social media. And my advice as the antidote
Speaker 3: is expand your peer group. Talk to more people who
Speaker 3: you disagree with to understand and empathize with other perspectives
Speaker 3: and get your information from the street, not from a
Speaker 3: place where anyone can create an account and post anything provocative.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, thank you. It's good advice. I have a
Speaker 2: couple kind of wrap up questions. Sure, So what do
Speaker 2: you have will be the lasting outcome of this show?
Speaker 3: I think that the intention, the goal is a deeperdstanding
Speaker 3: of Russia, a deeper empathy for trauma and a woman's
Speaker 3: experience there, and hopefully just really just caring about other
Speaker 3: people through their stories. I think the third thing is
Speaker 3: just there's something about telling a compelling story that takes
Speaker 3: place in a world that no one else has been
Speaker 3: to that enriches us all and gives us greater empathy.
Speaker 3: So maybe that's the point that's really beautiful.
Speaker 2: Is there anything that you've noticed that feels like a
Speaker 2: lasting impact of working on the show for you, Like,
Speaker 2: did this change you in any way that you've been
Speaker 2: able to put your finger on yet?
Speaker 3: I think exactly what I just said is what it
Speaker 3: did for me that I see I understand history in
Speaker 3: a way I never did before. I understan stand government
Speaker 3: intelligence in a way I never did before. I understand
Speaker 3: that these that let me try to say this because
Speaker 3: we haven't voiced this, but that sex fanage is not sexy.
Speaker 3: That we want to make things sexy that are actually
Speaker 3: almost always traumatic for those experiencing them. And so I
Speaker 3: think that was another big takeaway, that we want to
Speaker 3: glamorize some of these things that than to live them.
Speaker 3: It's not very glamorous. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Is there anyone that you think really needs to hear
Speaker 2: this podcast or a specific listener you kind of had
Speaker 2: in mind while you were sculpting it.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think Eliah's father needs to do so
Speaker 3: he can see the damage he's done, and so many
Speaker 3: parents do this. There's something I said at the very end,
Speaker 3: and it was that these are the results of growing
Speaker 3: up in a totalitarian system, whether it's a country or
Speaker 3: a family, because many people living in so called free
Speaker 3: countries grew up in a totalitarian system, which was a
Speaker 3: parent or parents whose word was the law, who didn't
Speaker 3: respect your needs, who wanted it their way or no way,
Speaker 3: who always had to be right, and so understanding that
Speaker 3: some of us have grown up in not just countries
Speaker 3: like this, but families like this, can help us better
Speaker 3: understand ourselves. So I sort of put that in the end,
Speaker 3: because I think the damage came out from the country,
Speaker 3: but from a father whose it doesn't matter what you
Speaker 3: want to be, You're going to be what I want
Speaker 3: you to be. And that is so repressive of the
Speaker 3: spirit of an individual. It's like stepping on a plant
Speaker 3: and saying you're not going to grow right. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, I think that's really valuable. And there's so
Speaker 2: many Something that I've learned working at Tenderfoot and being
Speaker 2: adjacent to a lot of the shows that we put
Speaker 2: out there is exactly what you're saying is you never
Speaker 2: know where someone has come from and what kind of
Speaker 2: environment they grew up in or what kinds of stories
Speaker 2: they have, just behind the masks that we put on
Speaker 2: every day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's the hardest thing as a
Speaker 3: creator of any of these shows, is that people have
Speaker 3: a filter through which they see the world and it's
Speaker 3: like this or it's not like that, and they're convinced
Speaker 3: of it one hundred percent, and nothing you could say, do,
Speaker 3: no story you can tell we'll change their mind. That's
Speaker 3: just the way it is. That's how people are, That's
Speaker 3: how that person is. And I think it's not just
Speaker 3: a sad way to live, but a dangerous way to live.
Speaker 3: And I think that it's a slippery slope from that
Speaker 3: to war or genocide when we start to feel like
Speaker 3: we're right and other groups of people are wrong. And
Speaker 3: so I think somehow my next Tenderfoot podcast to close on,
Speaker 3: I think, you know, we thought these podcasts are about
Speaker 3: one person did something to another person, or one person
Speaker 3: something to ten or twenty people. But what happens when
Speaker 3: you have one hundred thousand people doing something to a
Speaker 3: million people? Right? And that, to me is the next
Speaker 3: quote unquote true crime podcast I want to do. And
Speaker 3: instead of maybe rescuing one person or giving one family closure,
Speaker 3: is there some way we can do this on a
Speaker 3: broader scale.
Speaker 4: That's really beautiful.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing that vision with us,
Speaker 2: and just so much about the show and about Aliyah
Speaker 2: and your journey with it.
Speaker 4: And I could pick your brain.
Speaker 2: For thirty more hours, I'm sure, but we'll go ahead
Speaker 2: and wrap up. Is there anything else you'd like to
Speaker 2: share with everybody before we go?
Speaker 3: No, I just if you're listening to this episode, that
Speaker 3: probably means you listen to all the rest of the episodes.
Speaker 3: So I want to just thank you for listening. Feel
Speaker 3: free to contact me on social media or through Tenderfoot.
Speaker 3: I'd love to hear your thoughts overall. And also I
Speaker 3: really want to know did this episode ruin the podcast
Speaker 3: for you or did it support and help you're listening
Speaker 3: and understanding of the podcast. I truly mean that because
Speaker 3: that'll allow me to do less or more of these
Speaker 3: in the future.
Speaker 2: Awesome, and you heard it from him. He reads the comments,
Speaker 2: he takes them to heart, he collects the data. It
Speaker 2: will definitely be taken to heart.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So thank you Laura for a great interview and
Speaker 3: for listening and ask him great questions.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you for doing this, especially because it's something that
Speaker 2: you were resisted to and I really loved it.