WEBVTT - Inside To Die For 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:03.920 All eight episodes of To Die For are available now 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:07.000 to bitch absolutely free, but for ad free listening and 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:12.160 exclusive bonuses, subscribe to tendorfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.600 or on Apple Podcasts. 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.360 Hi everyone, and welcome to Inside Tenderfooit TV. Today we're 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.000 going inside to Die For and I'm sitting down with 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.480 award winning author and journalist Neil Strauss, who's the creator 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:34.200 and host of To Die For. I like, I imagine 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:36.360 many of you went on quite a journey with this show, 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:38.480 and I'm really looking forward to sitting down with him, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.120 talking to him about some of the behind the scenes 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:45.040 that might be a little unexpected for listeners, and hearing 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:47.960 more about his process and journey in building this show 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.080 and telling Aleija's story. So, without further ado, welcome Neil 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.880 to Inside tenderfoot TV and let's dive into it. 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.720 Awesome. Thanks for having me on, Laura. I didn't tell 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:58.240 you before we talked, but I definitely have like a 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.200 lot of reluctance to do this interview, and I'm to 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:00.800 tell you why. 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:01.640 Yeah. 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:06.000 So, I think when we create a podcast, we're almost 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.720 trying to create this magic spell that when you listen 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.520 to it you're just drawn into the story through voice, 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.640 through music, through the reporting. I'm not a fan of 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.440 pulling back the curtain on that and breaking the spell, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.600 and it's not like it's magic, but there's something about 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.000 the storytelling I think in this podcast and in so 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:29.640 many Tenderfoot podcasts that makes it work. And I just 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.080 I don't like demystifying it. But I'm going to do 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:34.440 this and we'll see how it goes. No one has 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:36.440 to listen, all right, stop now if you don't want 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:37.319 to ruin it. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:39.200 Well, thank you for going out on a limb. 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.200 Then there's actually a great segue into your process working 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.039 on this show in general. Can you talk a little 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.560 bit about the production process itself and how you went 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.120 about building To Die For. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.680 Yeah, it's like it's sort of a band, and the 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:58.200 band is myself. Tristan Bankston, who worked on the second 0:01:58.240 --> 0:01:59.720 season of To Live and Die in LA with me, 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:05.160 Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay is the producers and then 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:09.720 make up in Vanity set MAVs, who is the composer, 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:11.880 and then there's Dayton Cole who mixes it and makes 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.640 it sound great. It's really like a garage band that 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.000 puts this together. And one of the reasons I do 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:22.320 these with Tenderfoot is that there's a lot of creative 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.840 freedom within it to tell the story in the way 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.560 that the story wants to be told, versus other podcast 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:31.919 companies that seem to have a formula, and I hear 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.680 so many frustrated creators where they are not able to 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.919 share their experience because it has to be ground into 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:38.840 the formula. 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.400 Well, and with a story like Alyah as I imagine, 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.760 there is so much discovery as you went through the 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.720 process of talking to her that I couldn't even imagine 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.280 trying to put her story into a formula. Can you 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.240 share kind of what the journey was like for you 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.360 from the what you expected at the beginning when you 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.840 first heard about Aliah met her, and then just how 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.760 things might have shifted over time and the process of 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:05.440 interviewing her. 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.520 Yeah. I think for meeting Aliyah and the way she 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:10.760 showed up at that first meeting, I really just thought 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.520 it was gonna be like a spy movie but real life, 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:20.320 and instead it was really about trauma and healing and 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.480 her own experiences. The biggest danger wasn't the enemy the 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:29.160 foreign country. The biggest danger was being a woman in 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:34.160 a military system run by these predatory men with no 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.040 accountability or consequences. 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.640 As a listener, coming in with no expectations and no background, 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:44.119 I was really surprised by the shift, like the from 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.400 the first episode kind of the expectations I had to 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:50.400 then where you end up. I really appreciated, actually that 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:54.280 you talked about trauma informed interviewing, and I'm very curious 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.080 to learn more about that. Can you talk a little 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.560 bit about the training that you did for this interview 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.520 process and how that was different from other interviews you've 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:03.480 conducted in the past. 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:07.040 Sure, I think that the interview was also not what 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:11.360 Aleah expected. I think she expected the sizzle, glam stuff, 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.520 And partly through studying trauma informed interviewing, we were able 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:17.719 to create a safe space for her to really share 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:22.040 her story. And I think that so much of healing 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.400 is through sharing and being heard and being seen and 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.200 being understood. And so as we started to realize that 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.200 this was a story of not survival from people shooting 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:36.680 at you, but survival from predatory, exploitative men in power, 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.680 I realized I needed to really be thoughtful about the 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.000 way I spoke to her and to be conscious of 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.640 the experiences she's been through. So I studied trauma and 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:49.120 form interviewing from a few places. I got to certified 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.320 in it. There's something called the Peace Model for Interviewing 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.479 I looked into and there's a great book for the 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:58.680 World Health Organization called Psychological First Aid. That's great, and 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:03.599 the importance is creating a safe, supportive environment that at 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.640 least prevents them from being traumatized further will really allowing 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.359 them to tell their story with their truth even throughout this. 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.400 That went beyond the process and making sure that she's 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.839 getting support throughout the process she needed. And I think 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.000 she always said her memories were locked in Pandora's box. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:25.120 I think she even says it on the podcast. There's 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:29.400 a saying what we repressed controls us, right, we will further, 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:31.599 we will press it. It's like pushing back on a 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:36.040 spring that eventually that's just gonna snap. And so whatever 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:40.760 we're rere pressing eventually takes over, because that's how force works. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:45.839 But however, if we can set them free in a sense, 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.760 to let them out in a way while we're getting healing, 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.360 while we're getting supported at the same time, and integrate them, 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.920 I guess integration is the word. We can lessen the 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.719 charge and the power they have over her, and unexpectedly 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.000 that's part of what the process created for Leah. 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:01.360 That's really awesome. 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.040 Is there anything that you've taken from that training that 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.960 you've actually incorporated into your day to day life, not 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:10.400 just in an interview setting. 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:12.400 For sure? For sure, I mean think about it for 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.440 being a parent, right as a parent, active empathic listening, 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:22.320 valuing someone's feelings and experiences, not being judgmental, All those 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.560 things make you a great parent or a great partner. 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:28.760 Did it allow you because to be really pressing for 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.640 someone else's reality. There's a quote I love that says 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.599 listening is so close to being loved that some people 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:36.560 can't tell the difference. 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:38.440 Oh, I love that. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.080 It's great, right, So I think about that all the time. 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:43.360 That's really beautiful. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.920 So so part of the traumaform listening was not about 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.440 sitting down, And we did a lot of due diligence 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.039 at the beginning as far as the least story, but 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.599 in the end it wasn't to put her story on trial, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.000 and to put her narrative on trial. I thought maybe 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.839 at the beginning was a possibility, but by the end, 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.960 it really felt that that's not the job of this podcast. 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.880 It's to really give someone the space to tell their 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:17.200 story and to listen for the human being underneath it. 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.520 That actually sort of points to something that I did 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.600 want to ask you about, because you talk in the 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:28.080 beginning about this dynamic of you know, her using like 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.600 certain tactics that pickup artists had used, and that you 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:35.680 had this kind of fear of being played. And by 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.520 the end of it, that's completely gone from the tone 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.680 of the podcast and from the tone of her telling 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:44.720 her story. And I would love to know if there was, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:48.280 you know, a moment that you shifted over from what's 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:53.200 going on? Is she for real? Into this is definitely real? 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:55.120 That was a very leading question. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.240 But so I was curs about that question, so I 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.400 called it on the podcast. I called Chris Vall, who's 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.280 a good friend, has helped with the other podcasts, who 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.920 is the famous FBI negotiator and he wrote the book 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.400 Never Split the Difference, And Chris, I said, how many 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.160 times have people asked you to prove whether you're really 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.840 in the FBI or not? You just say it? Who knows? 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.840 And he goes never. Maybe once someone jokingly at a bar. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.440 But that's about That's it, And like, well, how interesting 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:26.920 is this that here's a woman saying this and presenting 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.680 herself in a clamorous way on Instagram and all of 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.120 a sudden, everyone's prove it, you're lying, you're fake And 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.320 would it be the same it was a male of 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:41.320 you know, in a suit who presented another way, and 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:43.880 I don't think it would be And so I thought, 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.439 I don't want to be part of that part of 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.160 the culture. And this speaks to creating a safe space. 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.360 We got to know who she really is. And at 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:57.720 the end, she literally says like, I create this fake world, 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.920 in this fake life on Instagram because a I want 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.400 to please my father and show him that I was 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.959 a success in life. And so there's still that child 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:10.600 trying to please the parents. So many of us have 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.560 this on some degree, right or our family message becomes 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.000 what we think are life purpose is. The second thing 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.320 also is just feeling like she won. When you go 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.720 through these really disempowering experiences, there's a need to empower 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.880 yourself and to feel empowered because so often in these 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.720 stories there isn't a happy ending, and so maybe we 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.960 make one or create one. Or do something that allows 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:35.360 us to go on living right. 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.720 Yeah, and I really appreciated in the I think it 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.439 was the final episode, had you brought her therapist back 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.000 in and she talked about that. She talked about the 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:48.600 aspirational element of social media, which, to be honest as 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.280 a listener, kind of blew my mind open because we 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.640 do employ all these judgments and all this kind of 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.640 criticism to how people present online. And it was really 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.560 interest staying to have that perspective brought in of look 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.760 at this through a trauma lens. So yeah, I just 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.679 wanted to call that out and give you kudos and 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.160 give the whole team kudos because it was really cool 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:13.240 to have a perspective shift. 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.000 I also think in terms of narratives, it's interesting to 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.720 hear read the reviews. For example, I really love reading 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.160 the reviews, positive or negative. They give me really valuable data. Yeah, 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.840 I really look at reviews as a valuable source of 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.960 feedback about what's working and what's not working. And I 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:30.920 thought a lot about narrative during the telling of this, 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.920 and I think everybody, everybody has three forms of narrative 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.880 they're telling, or there's three forms of truth in any story. 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.760 One layer is what really happened, what a camera would 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:44.680 have recorded if a camera was there. In the second 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.960 layer is what we remember happening. Some people are really 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:53.520 extreme in the stories they tell themselves. Other people are 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:55.680 semi close to the truth. Other people are always the 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:57.559 hero in their own own story. Other people are always 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.720 the victim in their own story. Other people are whatever, 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.200 always the one who's forgotten about, always the one who 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.440 led the group. You know, people have their own way 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.040 of their own filter through which they see themselves or 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.480 almost need to see themselves to prop their ego up. 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:16.680 So there's what really happened objectively, what we remember happening. 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:19.520 And then the third layer is then what we tell 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:24.560 other people. And that layer is that mask we wear 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.839 for social acceptance. And some people there that second and 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.280 third layer close. Some people they're more distant. So every 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.360 story has those three layers, no matter what, right And 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.319 the question is what is the gulf of separation between 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.760 those three layers. And maybe when we're do investigation or something, 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:44.760 we're trying to figure that out. Right, So a witness 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:51.319 may have a false memory and the perpetrator may straight 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:55.160 up be putting on the mask. So I find memory 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:58.840 story narrative really fascinating, and a Lee is sort of 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.240 like a very lightning rod for this in some ways 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.400 because she shows on Instagram things that really. 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:09.560 Aren't real, right, right, Oh that's so interesting. 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:10.760 And those are all the things that kind of went 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.280 on in my head through this, just trying to see 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:16.640 the commandity and people instead of objectifying. 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:20.360 Them, right, absolutely, Yeah, especially when you're talking to somebody 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:24.360 who's so much of their experience has been acting as 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.679 an object, right, being objectified, And yeah, I just. 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:31.440 I don't even know what. 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.680 To say what we're about to say. 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.960 I just appreciate that nuance, and I appreciate you know, 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:43.520 pointing out compassion as the first lens that you look 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.280 at anyone through. I think, is it's so important, and 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.240 like you're saying, we live in a very judgmental world, 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.040 and definitely for me as a listener, like there is 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.520 this tension between that presentational element and then the vulnerability 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.640 of her story. And like I said, I'm really glad 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:03.360 you took a full sixteen episodes and the story shifted 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.439 as much as it did, because it felt like these 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:10.439 layers and I definitely had doubts that I think a 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.640 lot of people share it in the beginning because it's 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.000 natural to be a little bit uncertain. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.920 And then by the time. 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:23.560 Aliah's like really, she gets very emotional, you know. And 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:28.000 I was amazed at the journey that she took that 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:32.080 I felt like I could follow along with her as 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:37.679 she opened up and it was just really powerful. So 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.680 what was the timeline of recording? And you said you 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:43.679 had about thirty or forty hours. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.040 Of raw interview? 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:47.559 Maybe more wow? 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:49.000 Maybe more wow. 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.480 Yeah, I'm a super thora interview or her in the 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.920 sense that I really do, because I care. I really 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.560 want to know everything, whether we use it or not. 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.199 And so a year and a half ago, I think 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.680 it was January. It was when I've first met her, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.559 and then we got together, we discussed doing the podcast. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.920 I talked to Donald a tenderfoot about it, and then 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:11.760 we just started recording just her story and sitting down 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.320 day after day and time and time again. And sometimes 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.120 when she'd share these stories, it got so quiet you 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.560 could hear like a pin dropping. And that's why I 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.320 tried this experiment on episode fifteen. I don't know if 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:25.880 you noticed when you're listening, I'm curious if you did. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.680 On episode fifteen, I did no voice over. I just 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.720 let her tell her story without any interruption, and only 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.480 at the end did I say, you've been listening to 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.880 chapter this, episode this, and so I wanted just to 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.600 hear her voice, let her speak, and just stay out 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.360 of it. And I think most people listening may not 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.080 have missed me. 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.400 I didn't consciously notice that, but I'm sure that I 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:56.240 noticed it in part of observing this shift, you know, 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:01.080 like that's definitely a deepening of her presence, I guess, 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.120 which is an odd word to use, but it felt 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:05.640 like she got more and more present. 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.360 Yeah, and I felt like, I really, when I do 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.680 these as the storyteller, I try to think what hasn't 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:13.520 been done? And I've never heard so for Tristan and I, 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:16.000 it was like a really exciting experiment, I think on 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.560 a deeper level, discussing trauma informed interviewing and everything we said, 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.560 just allowing someone to tell their story without jumping in 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:25.200 and explaining. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.360 So you started a year and a half ago, you said, 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.640 so was the interview process over three months? Six months longer? 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:34.760 You talked about taking a break for a while when 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.280 she was going through a really intense moment in therapy. 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.520 Yeah, but the interview process probably went on the whole time, 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.560 So whatever what you heard in the last episode was 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.680 recorded in the week or two before the last episode dropped. 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:47.680 Oh wow. 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:49.880 And that's the other thing I love about the podcast 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.800 I've done with Tenderfoot is they're all very live and 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.320 in the moment. Like with the first season of To 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.000 Live and Die in La, that investigation was ongoing, even 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.520 with the police. As each episode is coming out, right, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.600 there were parts, I don't want to say anything people 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.880 haven't listened, but there are parts where very intense things happen, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.760 and those literally happen between one week of the podcast 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:12.520 and the next week. 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.720 I mean, it feels very alive, so it translates to 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.720 the storytelling component of it as a recorded piece as. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.920 Well, exactly. And I think there's an element of that 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.360 that transfers into it, of it being very alive and 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.720 being very present. I used to be a music critic 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.480 in the New York Times, so I'd see bands play, 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.040 and when the band stopped getting along and still play 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:35.600 this music, it didn't sound as good anymore. It's the 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.680 same songs, the same notes, the same lyrics, and yet 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.640 because it's not alive in them, it ends up sounding. 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:49.520 Lifeless given the kind of top secret nature of a 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.320 lot of what she's talking about. I know that, you know, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.000 Alia changes the names of people and doesn't really disclose 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.760 exact people places, things in a way that I guess 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.880 would be incriminating. But she is speaking out about the 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:07.000 system that is very corrupt at a time that political 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.200 tensions are very high. I'm curious to hear, you know, 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.159 if she expressed any concerns about her safety as she 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:18.000 was going deeper into this story and kind of unveiling more, 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:23.760 and also if you experienced any internal concerns around being 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.680 present within this kind of espionage world that she's talking 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.520 about that's also very alive. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.720 Very much true. So I definitely, I definitely think that 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:33.760 I don't know why I do this, but I think 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:35.440 everything I do, a lot of what I've done in 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.879 the past, there's a danger element. If you're outing a 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:44.119 murder or someone who conspired with the murder, there's a danger. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:44.960 Absolutely. 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.560 I've done folks with really dangerous people, projects on really 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:52.280 dangerous things that I absolutely should not be doing. And 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:54.399 so for sure, while I was doing this, especially at 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.800 the beginning, I had a lot of nervousness she had 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:02.000 some nervousness, and however, I think it's interesting, especially with 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:04.840 this podcast and the narratives people tell versus the truth 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:07.520 and the idea is well, she's talking about that she'd 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:09.520 be killed, and I think her thought was, all this 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.760 stuff happened around the year two thousand. I'm not mentioning names. 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.919 I'm not revealing state secrets. I'm not saying anti Putin, 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.560 anti Ukraine war things. Maybe a touch, but nothing more 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.879 than everyone else is saying. And so I'm not a 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:29.159 threat to power. It's different than other people who are 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.840 speaking out with the intent to overthrow the Putin or 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:38.040 overthrow the regime or create systemic change there. So I 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.480 think her thought was because I'm not revealing sensitive information, 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.399 because I'm not a threat to what's happening, it's okay. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.520 And there are other former KGB agents who speak out, 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.680 who've written books. Jack Barski is one of them who's 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.680 out here and doing podcasts, and that's okay. So I 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:57.760 think her thought was, I'm just talking about stuff that 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.200 people don't talk about, but I'm not sharing something it's 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.200 a threat to those currently in power. I think, if anything, 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.440 everyone else in the podcast, who I interviewed as guest 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:11.880 was more negative about things and reveal more and through 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.359 all these voices and experts, I really feel like the 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.920 listener and myself learned so much about Russia and the 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:23.679 Russian mafia and the Russian military and the way of 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.200 thinking Putin has. So I feel like I was such 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.720 an education for me researching all the context. I probably 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:35.560 like consumed like at least ten twenty history books along 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:36.960 the way. Yeah. 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:37.639 Absolutely. 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:39.879 Can you talk a little bit about how you found 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.800 the people that you brought onto the show? Because I 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.639 loved having all of these experts pop in, and I 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.959 felt like you did a great job of whenever Aleah 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.800 would say something that was kind of hard to believe 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.679 at first, you know, like you would immediately bring in 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:57.880 somebody who would back that up and be like, yes, 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.720 these actually structures do exist, or this something that we 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.800 know happened. How did you find the people that you 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.040 ended up bringing in as these experts? 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:07.960 First of all, thanks for saying that. I really did 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.440 feel that there were Each episode ended up having a theme, 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.840 and then I wanted a deeper understanding of that theme. 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.320 So whether it was bringing in Holly McKay, a war reporter, 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:20.679 to talk about women's treatment in the Russian military, or 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:26.200 bringing in the different Russian mafia experts to talk about that. Literally, 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:28.240 when you talk about the Russian government, you talk about 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.080 the mafia, you're kind of talking about the same thing. 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.719 That was just shocking. It was shocking, but it's funny 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:37.879 because when it sounded incredible that the Russian is training 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:41.040 these seducers, I realized that having written that book The 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.360 Game many years ago, that I forgot or didn't make 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.960 the connection till I started thinking about it, that the 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.160 FBI had brought me in many years ago to train 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:56.840 them in seductions. Uh huh, And that could sound preposterous. However, However, 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.520 I called someone who was there at that train, Robin Drake, 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.080 and just had him confirm I was there, because that's 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.080 a that's a hard one to swallow. 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:09.760 And you didn't trust your memory because it might. 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:16.080 Have been exactly change exactly. So I had him confirm it, 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.640 and then he became such a great expert to call 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.120 on throughout the podcast. So while you're working on a project, 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.840 or while I'm working on a project, I try to 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:27.760 talk about it everywhere I go with everyone I meet, 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:29.600 because you never know when a resource is going to 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.320 pop up. And so I'd be out at a conference 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.280 and meet somebody used to be in the CIA, and 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:36.399