1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: All eight episodes of To Die For are available now 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: to bitch absolutely free, but for ad free listening and 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: exclusive bonuses, subscribe to tendorfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: or on Apple Podcasts. 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to Inside Tenderfooit TV. Today we're 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: going inside to Die For and I'm sitting down with 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: award winning author and journalist Neil Strauss, who's the creator 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 2: and host of To Die For. I like, I imagine 9 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 2: many of you went on quite a journey with this show, 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 2: and I'm really looking forward to sitting down with him, 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: talking to him about some of the behind the scenes 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: that might be a little unexpected for listeners, and hearing 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: more about his process and journey in building this show 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: and telling Aleija's story. So, without further ado, welcome Neil 15 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: to Inside tenderfoot TV and let's dive into it. 16 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 3: Awesome. Thanks for having me on, Laura. I didn't tell 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 3: you before we talked, but I definitely have like a 18 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 3: lot of reluctance to do this interview, and I'm to 19 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 3: tell you why. 20 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. 21 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: So, I think when we create a podcast, we're almost 22 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: trying to create this magic spell that when you listen 23 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 3: to it you're just drawn into the story through voice, 24 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 3: through music, through the reporting. I'm not a fan of 25 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 3: pulling back the curtain on that and breaking the spell, 26 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 3: and it's not like it's magic, but there's something about 27 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 3: the storytelling I think in this podcast and in so 28 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 3: many Tenderfoot podcasts that makes it work. And I just 29 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 3: I don't like demystifying it. But I'm going to do 30 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: this and we'll see how it goes. No one has 31 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 3: to listen, all right, stop now if you don't want 32 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 3: to ruin it. 33 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 4: Well, thank you for going out on a limb. 34 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: Then there's actually a great segue into your process working 35 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 2: on this show in general. Can you talk a little 36 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: bit about the production process itself and how you went 37 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 2: about building To Die For. 38 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like it's sort of a band, and the 39 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: band is myself. Tristan Bankston, who worked on the second 40 00:01:58,240 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 3: season of To Live and Die in LA with me, 41 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 3: Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay is the producers and then 42 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: make up in Vanity set MAVs, who is the composer, 43 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 3: and then there's Dayton Cole who mixes it and makes 44 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 3: it sound great. It's really like a garage band that 45 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 3: puts this together. And one of the reasons I do 46 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 3: these with Tenderfoot is that there's a lot of creative 47 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 3: freedom within it to tell the story in the way 48 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 3: that the story wants to be told, versus other podcast 49 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 3: companies that seem to have a formula, and I hear 50 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 3: so many frustrated creators where they are not able to 51 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 3: share their experience because it has to be ground into 52 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: the formula. 53 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: Well, and with a story like Alyah as I imagine, 54 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: there is so much discovery as you went through the 55 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: process of talking to her that I couldn't even imagine 56 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 2: trying to put her story into a formula. Can you 57 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: share kind of what the journey was like for you 58 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: from the what you expected at the beginning when you 59 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 2: first heard about Aliah met her, and then just how 60 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: things might have shifted over time and the process of 61 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: interviewing her. 62 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think for meeting Aliyah and the way she 63 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: showed up at that first meeting, I really just thought 64 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: it was gonna be like a spy movie but real life, 65 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 3: and instead it was really about trauma and healing and 66 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: her own experiences. The biggest danger wasn't the enemy the 67 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: foreign country. The biggest danger was being a woman in 68 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: a military system run by these predatory men with no 69 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: accountability or consequences. 70 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: As a listener, coming in with no expectations and no background, 71 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,119 Speaker 2: I was really surprised by the shift, like the from 72 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: the first episode kind of the expectations I had to 73 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: then where you end up. I really appreciated, actually that 74 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: you talked about trauma informed interviewing, and I'm very curious 75 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: to learn more about that. Can you talk a little 76 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: bit about the training that you did for this interview 77 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: process and how that was different from other interviews you've 78 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: conducted in the past. 79 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: Sure, I think that the interview was also not what 80 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: Aleah expected. I think she expected the sizzle, glam stuff, 81 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 3: And partly through studying trauma informed interviewing, we were able 82 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: to create a safe space for her to really share 83 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 3: her story. And I think that so much of healing 84 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 3: is through sharing and being heard and being seen and 85 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 3: being understood. And so as we started to realize that 86 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 3: this was a story of not survival from people shooting 87 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: at you, but survival from predatory, exploitative men in power, 88 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 3: I realized I needed to really be thoughtful about the 89 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 3: way I spoke to her and to be conscious of 90 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 3: the experiences she's been through. So I studied trauma and 91 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: form interviewing from a few places. I got to certified 92 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 3: in it. There's something called the Peace Model for Interviewing 93 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 3: I looked into and there's a great book for the 94 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: World Health Organization called Psychological First Aid. That's great, and 95 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 3: the importance is creating a safe, supportive environment that at 96 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 3: least prevents them from being traumatized further will really allowing 97 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 3: them to tell their story with their truth even throughout this. 98 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 3: That went beyond the process and making sure that she's 99 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,839 Speaker 3: getting support throughout the process she needed. And I think 100 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: she always said her memories were locked in Pandora's box. 101 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: I think she even says it on the podcast. There's 102 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: a saying what we repressed controls us, right, we will further, 103 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 3: we will press it. It's like pushing back on a 104 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 3: spring that eventually that's just gonna snap. And so whatever 105 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: we're rere pressing eventually takes over, because that's how force works. 106 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 3: But however, if we can set them free in a sense, 107 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 3: to let them out in a way while we're getting healing, 108 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 3: while we're getting supported at the same time, and integrate them, 109 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 3: I guess integration is the word. We can lessen the 110 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 3: charge and the power they have over her, and unexpectedly 111 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: that's part of what the process created for Leah. 112 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 4: That's really awesome. 113 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: Is there anything that you've taken from that training that 114 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: you've actually incorporated into your day to day life, not 115 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 2: just in an interview setting. 116 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: For sure? For sure, I mean think about it for 117 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 3: being a parent, right as a parent, active empathic listening, 118 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 3: valuing someone's feelings and experiences, not being judgmental, All those 119 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 3: things make you a great parent or a great partner. 120 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 3: Did it allow you because to be really pressing for 121 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: someone else's reality. There's a quote I love that says 122 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 3: listening is so close to being loved that some people 123 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: can't tell the difference. 124 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 4: Oh, I love that. 125 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: It's great, right, So I think about that all the time. 126 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 4: That's really beautiful. 127 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 3: So so part of the traumaform listening was not about 128 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: sitting down, And we did a lot of due diligence 129 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 3: at the beginning as far as the least story, but 130 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 3: in the end it wasn't to put her story on trial, 131 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: and to put her narrative on trial. I thought maybe 132 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 3: at the beginning was a possibility, but by the end, 133 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 3: it really felt that that's not the job of this podcast. 134 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 3: It's to really give someone the space to tell their 135 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: story and to listen for the human being underneath it. 136 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 2: That actually sort of points to something that I did 137 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: want to ask you about, because you talk in the 138 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: beginning about this dynamic of you know, her using like 139 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: certain tactics that pickup artists had used, and that you 140 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: had this kind of fear of being played. And by 141 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: the end of it, that's completely gone from the tone 142 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: of the podcast and from the tone of her telling 143 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: her story. And I would love to know if there was, 144 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: you know, a moment that you shifted over from what's 145 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: going on? Is she for real? Into this is definitely real? 146 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: That was a very leading question. 147 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 3: But so I was curs about that question, so I 148 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 3: called it on the podcast. I called Chris Vall, who's 149 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: a good friend, has helped with the other podcasts, who 150 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 3: is the famous FBI negotiator and he wrote the book 151 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 3: Never Split the Difference, And Chris, I said, how many 152 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: times have people asked you to prove whether you're really 153 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: in the FBI or not? You just say it? Who knows? 154 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 3: And he goes never. Maybe once someone jokingly at a bar. 155 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: But that's about That's it, And like, well, how interesting 156 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: is this that here's a woman saying this and presenting 157 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: herself in a clamorous way on Instagram and all of 158 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: a sudden, everyone's prove it, you're lying, you're fake And 159 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 3: would it be the same it was a male of 160 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 3: you know, in a suit who presented another way, and 161 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 3: I don't think it would be And so I thought, 162 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: I don't want to be part of that part of 163 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 3: the culture. And this speaks to creating a safe space. 164 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: We got to know who she really is. And at 165 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 3: the end, she literally says like, I create this fake world, 166 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 3: in this fake life on Instagram because a I want 167 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 3: to please my father and show him that I was 168 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 3: a success in life. And so there's still that child 169 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 3: trying to please the parents. So many of us have 170 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 3: this on some degree, right or our family message becomes 171 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: what we think are life purpose is. The second thing 172 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 3: also is just feeling like she won. When you go 173 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 3: through these really disempowering experiences, there's a need to empower 174 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 3: yourself and to feel empowered because so often in these 175 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 3: stories there isn't a happy ending, and so maybe we 176 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 3: make one or create one. Or do something that allows 177 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 3: us to go on living right. 178 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really appreciated in the I think it 179 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 2: was the final episode, had you brought her therapist back 180 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: in and she talked about that. She talked about the 181 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 2: aspirational element of social media, which, to be honest as 182 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: a listener, kind of blew my mind open because we 183 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: do employ all these judgments and all this kind of 184 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: criticism to how people present online. And it was really 185 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: interest staying to have that perspective brought in of look 186 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: at this through a trauma lens. So yeah, I just 187 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 2: wanted to call that out and give you kudos and 188 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: give the whole team kudos because it was really cool 189 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: to have a perspective shift. 190 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 3: I also think in terms of narratives, it's interesting to 191 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 3: hear read the reviews. For example, I really love reading 192 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 3: the reviews, positive or negative. They give me really valuable data. Yeah, 193 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 3: I really look at reviews as a valuable source of 194 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: feedback about what's working and what's not working. And I 195 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 3: thought a lot about narrative during the telling of this, 196 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 3: and I think everybody, everybody has three forms of narrative 197 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: they're telling, or there's three forms of truth in any story. 198 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 3: One layer is what really happened, what a camera would 199 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 3: have recorded if a camera was there. In the second 200 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 3: layer is what we remember happening. Some people are really 201 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: extreme in the stories they tell themselves. Other people are 202 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 3: semi close to the truth. Other people are always the 203 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,559 Speaker 3: hero in their own own story. Other people are always 204 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 3: the victim in their own story. Other people are whatever, 205 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 3: always the one who's forgotten about, always the one who 206 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 3: led the group. You know, people have their own way 207 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 3: of their own filter through which they see themselves or 208 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 3: almost need to see themselves to prop their ego up. 209 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 3: So there's what really happened objectively, what we remember happening. 210 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 3: And then the third layer is then what we tell 211 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 3: other people. And that layer is that mask we wear 212 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 3: for social acceptance. And some people there that second and 213 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: third layer close. Some people they're more distant. So every 214 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 3: story has those three layers, no matter what, right And 215 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 3: the question is what is the gulf of separation between 216 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: those three layers. And maybe when we're do investigation or something, 217 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 3: we're trying to figure that out. Right, So a witness 218 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 3: may have a false memory and the perpetrator may straight 219 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: up be putting on the mask. So I find memory 220 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 3: story narrative really fascinating, and a Lee is sort of 221 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 3: like a very lightning rod for this in some ways 222 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 3: because she shows on Instagram things that really. 223 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 4: Aren't real, right, right, Oh that's so interesting. 224 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 3: And those are all the things that kind of went 225 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 3: on in my head through this, just trying to see 226 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 3: the commandity and people instead of objectifying. 227 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: Them, right, absolutely, Yeah, especially when you're talking to somebody 228 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: who's so much of their experience has been acting as 229 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: an object, right, being objectified, And yeah, I just. 230 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 4: I don't even know what. 231 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: To say what we're about to say. 232 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: I just appreciate that nuance, and I appreciate you know, 233 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: pointing out compassion as the first lens that you look 234 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 2: at anyone through. I think, is it's so important, and 235 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: like you're saying, we live in a very judgmental world, 236 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: and definitely for me as a listener, like there is 237 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: this tension between that presentational element and then the vulnerability 238 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: of her story. And like I said, I'm really glad 239 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: you took a full sixteen episodes and the story shifted 240 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 2: as much as it did, because it felt like these 241 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 2: layers and I definitely had doubts that I think a 242 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: lot of people share it in the beginning because it's 243 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: natural to be a little bit uncertain. 244 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 4: And then by the time. 245 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: Aliah's like really, she gets very emotional, you know. And 246 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: I was amazed at the journey that she took that 247 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: I felt like I could follow along with her as 248 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 2: she opened up and it was just really powerful. So 249 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: what was the timeline of recording? And you said you 250 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 2: had about thirty or forty hours. 251 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 4: Of raw interview? 252 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 3: Maybe more wow? 253 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 4: Maybe more wow. 254 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a super thora interview or her in the 255 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: sense that I really do, because I care. I really 256 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 3: want to know everything, whether we use it or not. 257 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 3: And so a year and a half ago, I think 258 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 3: it was January. It was when I've first met her, 259 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 3: and then we got together, we discussed doing the podcast. 260 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: I talked to Donald a tenderfoot about it, and then 261 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 3: we just started recording just her story and sitting down 262 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 3: day after day and time and time again. And sometimes 263 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 3: when she'd share these stories, it got so quiet you 264 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 3: could hear like a pin dropping. And that's why I 265 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: tried this experiment on episode fifteen. I don't know if 266 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: you noticed when you're listening, I'm curious if you did. 267 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 3: On episode fifteen, I did no voice over. I just 268 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 3: let her tell her story without any interruption, and only 269 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: at the end did I say, you've been listening to 270 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: chapter this, episode this, and so I wanted just to 271 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 3: hear her voice, let her speak, and just stay out 272 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 3: of it. And I think most people listening may not 273 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: have missed me. 274 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: I didn't consciously notice that, but I'm sure that I 275 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: noticed it in part of observing this shift, you know, 276 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: like that's definitely a deepening of her presence, I guess, 277 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: which is an odd word to use, but it felt 278 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: like she got more and more present. 279 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I felt like, I really, when I do 280 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 3: these as the storyteller, I try to think what hasn't 281 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 3: been done? And I've never heard so for Tristan and I, 282 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 3: it was like a really exciting experiment, I think on 283 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: a deeper level, discussing trauma informed interviewing and everything we said, 284 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 3: just allowing someone to tell their story without jumping in 285 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: and explaining. 286 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: So you started a year and a half ago, you said, 287 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 2: so was the interview process over three months? Six months longer? 288 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: You talked about taking a break for a while when 289 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: she was going through a really intense moment in therapy. 290 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, but the interview process probably went on the whole time, 291 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 3: So whatever what you heard in the last episode was 292 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 3: recorded in the week or two before the last episode dropped. 293 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 294 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 3: And that's the other thing I love about the podcast 295 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: I've done with Tenderfoot is they're all very live and 296 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: in the moment. Like with the first season of To 297 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 3: Live and Die in La, that investigation was ongoing, even 298 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 3: with the police. As each episode is coming out, right, 299 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: there were parts, I don't want to say anything people 300 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 3: haven't listened, but there are parts where very intense things happen, 301 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: and those literally happen between one week of the podcast 302 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: and the next week. 303 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: I mean, it feels very alive, so it translates to 304 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: the storytelling component of it as a recorded piece as. 305 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 3: Well, exactly. And I think there's an element of that 306 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 3: that transfers into it, of it being very alive and 307 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: being very present. I used to be a music critic 308 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 3: in the New York Times, so I'd see bands play, 309 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: and when the band stopped getting along and still play 310 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 3: this music, it didn't sound as good anymore. It's the 311 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: same songs, the same notes, the same lyrics, and yet 312 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: because it's not alive in them, it ends up sounding. 313 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: Lifeless given the kind of top secret nature of a 314 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: lot of what she's talking about. I know that, you know, 315 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: Alia changes the names of people and doesn't really disclose 316 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: exact people places, things in a way that I guess 317 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: would be incriminating. But she is speaking out about the 318 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: system that is very corrupt at a time that political 319 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: tensions are very high. I'm curious to hear, you know, 320 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 2: if she expressed any concerns about her safety as she 321 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: was going deeper into this story and kind of unveiling more, 322 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: and also if you experienced any internal concerns around being 323 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: present within this kind of espionage world that she's talking 324 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: about that's also very alive. 325 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: Very much true. So I definitely, I definitely think that 326 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: I don't know why I do this, but I think 327 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 3: everything I do, a lot of what I've done in 328 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 3: the past, there's a danger element. If you're outing a 329 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 3: murder or someone who conspired with the murder, there's a danger. 330 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 331 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 3: I've done folks with really dangerous people, projects on really 332 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 3: dangerous things that I absolutely should not be doing. And 333 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 3: so for sure, while I was doing this, especially at 334 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 3: the beginning, I had a lot of nervousness she had 335 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 3: some nervousness, and however, I think it's interesting, especially with 336 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 3: this podcast and the narratives people tell versus the truth 337 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 3: and the idea is well, she's talking about that she'd 338 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 3: be killed, and I think her thought was, all this 339 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 3: stuff happened around the year two thousand. I'm not mentioning names. 340 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 3: I'm not revealing state secrets. I'm not saying anti Putin, 341 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: anti Ukraine war things. Maybe a touch, but nothing more 342 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 3: than everyone else is saying. And so I'm not a 343 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 3: threat to power. It's different than other people who are 344 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 3: speaking out with the intent to overthrow the Putin or 345 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 3: overthrow the regime or create systemic change there. So I 346 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 3: think her thought was because I'm not revealing sensitive information, 347 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 3: because I'm not a threat to what's happening, it's okay. 348 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 3: And there are other former KGB agents who speak out, 349 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 3: who've written books. Jack Barski is one of them who's 350 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 3: out here and doing podcasts, and that's okay. So I 351 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 3: think her thought was, I'm just talking about stuff that 352 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 3: people don't talk about, but I'm not sharing something it's 353 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 3: a threat to those currently in power. I think, if anything, 354 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 3: everyone else in the podcast, who I interviewed as guest 355 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 3: was more negative about things and reveal more and through 356 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 3: all these voices and experts, I really feel like the 357 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 3: listener and myself learned so much about Russia and the 358 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 3: Russian mafia and the Russian military and the way of 359 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 3: thinking Putin has. So I feel like I was such 360 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 3: an education for me researching all the context. I probably 361 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 3: like consumed like at least ten twenty history books along 362 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: the way. Yeah. 363 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 364 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about how you found 365 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: the people that you brought onto the show? Because I 366 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 2: loved having all of these experts pop in, and I 367 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,959 Speaker 2: felt like you did a great job of whenever Aleah 368 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: would say something that was kind of hard to believe 369 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: at first, you know, like you would immediately bring in 370 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: somebody who would back that up and be like, yes, 371 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: these actually structures do exist, or this something that we 372 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 2: know happened. How did you find the people that you 373 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: ended up bringing in as these experts? 374 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 3: First of all, thanks for saying that. I really did 375 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 3: feel that there were Each episode ended up having a theme, 376 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 3: and then I wanted a deeper understanding of that theme. 377 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: So whether it was bringing in Holly McKay, a war reporter, 378 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 3: to talk about women's treatment in the Russian military, or 379 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 3: bringing in the different Russian mafia experts to talk about that. Literally, 380 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 3: when you talk about the Russian government, you talk about 381 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: the mafia, you're kind of talking about the same thing. 382 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,719 Speaker 3: That was just shocking. It was shocking, but it's funny 383 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 3: because when it sounded incredible that the Russian is training 384 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 3: these seducers, I realized that having written that book The 385 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 3: Game many years ago, that I forgot or didn't make 386 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 3: the connection till I started thinking about it, that the 387 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 3: FBI had brought me in many years ago to train 388 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: them in seductions. Uh huh, And that could sound preposterous. However, However, 389 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 3: I called someone who was there at that train, Robin Drake, 390 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 3: and just had him confirm I was there, because that's 391 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: a that's a hard one to swallow. 392 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: And you didn't trust your memory because it might. 393 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 3: Have been exactly change exactly. So I had him confirm it, 394 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 3: and then he became such a great expert to call 395 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 3: on throughout the podcast. So while you're working on a project, 396 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 3: or while I'm working on a project, I try to 397 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 3: talk about it everywhere I go with everyone I meet, 398 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 3: because you never know when a resource is going to 399 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 3: pop up. And so I'd be out at a conference 400 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: and meet somebody used to be in the CIA, and 401 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 3: I'd say, what do you know about these Russian swallows? 402 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 3: And he'd tell me something. I'd be great. Can I 403 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: call you back about that? I mean, my transcriber who 404 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 3: was transcribing the audio said, oh my god, I used 405 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 3: to work for a secret aerospace program where they trained 406 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 3: us and warned us about these type of women. So 407 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 3: I think by just putting your antenna out there, all 408 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 3: of a sudden, the information starts coming to you. And sometimes, 409 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 3: of course, if I couldn't find someone saying expert on poisonings, 410 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 3: I just research online and try to find some great 411 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 3: people to interview. But I was so grateful for those 412 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 3: speakers because they brought such important context to it, and 413 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 3: I think that was part of the narrative. Is just 414 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: you're learning so much and not even realizing you're learning it. 415 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 416 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: Are you allowed to share anything about your training with 417 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: the FBI in seduction or. 418 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 3: Is that yeah? I can't think I can try it. No, 419 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 3: I asked them. I asked them, and they said, I 420 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 3: can share it. I just can't share where I went 421 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 3: to do the training all right, So basically what they 422 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: do is the same as a seduction, but just the 423 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 3: outcome is different. So the outcome is not a relationship 424 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 3: or a romantic experience or a physical experience. Their outcome 425 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 3: is how do I get this person to be an 426 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 3: informant on their boss? 427 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: Ah? 428 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 3: Okay, how do I get this personal work for our 429 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 3: governments s out of that? But the process is the same, 430 00:22:54,560 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 3: which is you're meeting someone, You're building trust, You're trying 431 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 3: to understand what their value system is so you can 432 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 3: speak to them in terms of what their values are. 433 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 3: And then when you built enough trust and rapport and connection, 434 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 3: you're starting to plant the seed for the offer you're making. 435 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 3: So what I've discovered was there's really very little difference 436 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 3: and these pickup artists who I wrote about in the game, 437 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 3: because they did it so much like had as sophisticated 438 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 3: a knowledge of human behavior as the FBI's behavioral analysis units. Right, 439 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 3: these guys are talking to whatever, five, ten, fifteen people 440 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 3: a night versus you have one target and that's a 441 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 3: one year project or something or a three year project. 442 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 3: So it was very surreal, it's very serial. It's definitely 443 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 3: the last thing I expected when I wrote that book, 444 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 3: but then it made me realize it's not ludicrous. A 445 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 3: government will do any means necessary that they can get 446 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 3: away with to accomplish. 447 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 2: Their objective, right right, Like you said, it's studying human 448 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: behavior more than seducing, almost like seducing is the word. 449 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 3: But yeah, and yeah, and at the same time, like 450 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 3: in the past for other projects, I've interviewed government psychics 451 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: who were trained by the government like to do spying 452 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 3: as psychic spies. That literally, that's like a real thing. 453 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 3: It's not a conspiracy theory. It's called remote viewing. 454 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 4: Remote viewing. 455 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember reading about that and thinking it was 456 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: just so interesting. 457 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I went and got trained by the guys to 458 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: learn how to remote view cool. 459 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that should be another podcast. 460 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 3: That should be another podcast. It was awesome. So the 461 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 3: point being is any government won't try anything to see 462 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 3: what works, right, whether it's induction or ESP. 463 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: So with u Aliyah and with the pickup artists that 464 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 2: you'd you know, worked with and interviewed, were there any 465 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 2: times when she talked about these tactics that were either 466 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 2: really similar or really different from the pickup artist tactics 467 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: that you'd beenamiliar with before. 468 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was super weird because she'd be talking about 469 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: things that she was doing as seduction techniques, and I 470 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: was like, oh, wow, this was exactly what the pickup 471 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 3: artists were doing. It was the exact same period of time, 472 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: the early two thousands. 473 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: Wow. Interesting. We were talking off Mike for a second 474 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,199 Speaker 2: and I was mentioning to Neil that there was actually 475 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: a question that has been on my mind that I 476 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 2: didn't want to put him on the spot about, and 477 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 2: he said, put me on the spot. So one thing 478 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: that came up for me a lot in listening to 479 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: this podcast and learning about the way that information has 480 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: been used by Russia to essentially, you know, brain rush 481 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: and radicalize people. I was really reflecting a lot on 482 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: what I've been seeing happening in the US. And I 483 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 2: was hesitant to ask this question because I don't want 484 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: it to be a divisive or super politicized question. But 485 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: I'm curious if you, in the process of learning about 486 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: how Russia's government works and how information can be used 487 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 2: to kind of weaponize people against one another, if you 488 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: reflected on that in the US, and you know, have 489 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 2: any observations about that kind of radicalized thinking that Aliah 490 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 2: talks so much about. 491 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 3: For sure, there's a fault line in our society, and 492 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 3: I think everyone can agree on that, and that for 493 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 3: a government that wants to take down the US, the 494 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 3: best way to do it is from the inside. And 495 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 3: again there's interviews with Russian defectors who've been saying this 496 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 3: for years, going back to and again haven't been killed. 497 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 3: It's so much easier to destroy a country from the 498 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 3: inside and everybody fighting each other and not focusing on 499 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 3: the external. So it's one hundred percent happening. And even 500 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 3: Aliyah said, and also someone I talked to from the 501 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 3: CIA said as well, that there's so many people over 502 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: here and that's their job to do this sort of 503 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 3: there's even a name for it, but to do this 504 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 3: kind of sabotage from the inside. And so I think 505 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 3: I really learned that a there are a lot of 506 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 3: people we meet who are just ordinary people living here 507 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: who report back to handlers and talk about what they're hearing. 508 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 3: They're called eyes and ears. Then the ore the people 509 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: here who are actively creating relationships with other people and 510 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 3: in power and putting these ideas in their head and 511 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 3: fanning the flames of division and discontent and then absolutely 512 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: they're softwares and armies of individuals who are creating this 513 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: on social media. It's such a effective way to hurt 514 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 3: a country from the inside and no one checks. You 515 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 3: see these news reports that are covering an issue and 516 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 3: they just quote Twitter accounts, not even knowing if these 517 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 3: are real people or what's called sock puppet accounts. 518 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: Right, especially with our election cycle, what do you recommend 519 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: for people to, I guess be aware, but not necessarily 520 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: be completely afraid of what you just said. 521 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 3: I asked someone who runs a social media company what 522 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 3: countries were responsible for the most fake propaganda accounts and 523 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 3: fake sabotage accounts, and the three were, not surprisingly China, Iran, 524 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 3: and Russia. But even if they're real people, it's only 525 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 3: a specific kind of person who posts a lot of 526 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 3: activity on social media. I haven't mete you, Laura, but 527 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 3: I know you don't, and so what you're hearing is 528 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 3: a people who are working out their trauma through social 529 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: media or b countries that are working out their domination 530 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 3: land through social media. And my advice as the antidote 531 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,959 Speaker 3: is expand your peer group. Talk to more people who 532 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 3: you disagree with to understand and empathize with other perspectives 533 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 3: and get your information from the street, not from a 534 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 3: place where anyone can create an account and post anything provocative. 535 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, thank you. It's good advice. I have a 536 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: couple kind of wrap up questions. Sure, So what do 537 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: you have will be the lasting outcome of this show? 538 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 3: I think that the intention, the goal is a deeperdstanding 539 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 3: of Russia, a deeper empathy for trauma and a woman's 540 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 3: experience there, and hopefully just really just caring about other 541 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 3: people through their stories. I think the third thing is 542 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 3: just there's something about telling a compelling story that takes 543 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 3: place in a world that no one else has been 544 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 3: to that enriches us all and gives us greater empathy. 545 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 3: So maybe that's the point that's really beautiful. 546 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: Is there anything that you've noticed that feels like a 547 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: lasting impact of working on the show for you, Like, 548 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 2: did this change you in any way that you've been 549 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: able to put your finger on yet? 550 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 3: I think exactly what I just said is what it 551 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 3: did for me that I see I understand history in 552 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 3: a way I never did before. I understan stand government 553 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 3: intelligence in a way I never did before. I understand 554 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 3: that these that let me try to say this because 555 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 3: we haven't voiced this, but that sex fanage is not sexy. 556 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 3: That we want to make things sexy that are actually 557 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: almost always traumatic for those experiencing them. And so I 558 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 3: think that was another big takeaway, that we want to 559 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 3: glamorize some of these things that than to live them. 560 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 3: It's not very glamorous. Yeah. 561 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 562 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: Is there anyone that you think really needs to hear 563 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: this podcast or a specific listener you kind of had 564 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 2: in mind while you were sculpting it. 565 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 3: I mean, I think Eliah's father needs to do so 566 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 3: he can see the damage he's done, and so many 567 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 3: parents do this. There's something I said at the very end, 568 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 3: and it was that these are the results of growing 569 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 3: up in a totalitarian system, whether it's a country or 570 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 3: a family, because many people living in so called free 571 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 3: countries grew up in a totalitarian system, which was a 572 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 3: parent or parents whose word was the law, who didn't 573 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 3: respect your needs, who wanted it their way or no way, 574 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 3: who always had to be right, and so understanding that 575 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 3: some of us have grown up in not just countries 576 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 3: like this, but families like this, can help us better 577 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 3: understand ourselves. So I sort of put that in the end, 578 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 3: because I think the damage came out from the country, 579 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 3: but from a father whose it doesn't matter what you 580 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 3: want to be, You're going to be what I want 581 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 3: you to be. And that is so repressive of the 582 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: spirit of an individual. It's like stepping on a plant 583 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: and saying you're not going to grow right. Yeah. 584 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, I think that's really valuable. And there's so 585 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 2: many Something that I've learned working at Tenderfoot and being 586 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: adjacent to a lot of the shows that we put 587 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 2: out there is exactly what you're saying is you never 588 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: know where someone has come from and what kind of 589 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 2: environment they grew up in or what kinds of stories 590 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: they have, just behind the masks that we put on 591 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: every day. 592 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's the hardest thing as a 593 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 3: creator of any of these shows, is that people have 594 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 3: a filter through which they see the world and it's 595 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 3: like this or it's not like that, and they're convinced 596 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 3: of it one hundred percent, and nothing you could say, do, 597 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 3: no story you can tell we'll change their mind. That's 598 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 3: just the way it is. That's how people are, That's 599 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 3: how that person is. And I think it's not just 600 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 3: a sad way to live, but a dangerous way to live. 601 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 3: And I think that it's a slippery slope from that 602 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 3: to war or genocide when we start to feel like 603 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 3: we're right and other groups of people are wrong. And 604 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 3: so I think somehow my next Tenderfoot podcast to close on, 605 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 3: I think, you know, we thought these podcasts are about 606 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 3: one person did something to another person, or one person 607 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 3: something to ten or twenty people. But what happens when 608 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 3: you have one hundred thousand people doing something to a 609 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 3: million people? Right? And that, to me is the next 610 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 3: quote unquote true crime podcast I want to do. And 611 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 3: instead of maybe rescuing one person or giving one family closure, 612 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 3: is there some way we can do this on a 613 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 3: broader scale. 614 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 4: That's really beautiful. 615 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing that vision with us, 616 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: and just so much about the show and about Aliyah 617 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 2: and your journey with it. 618 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 4: And I could pick your brain. 619 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: For thirty more hours, I'm sure, but we'll go ahead 620 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 2: and wrap up. Is there anything else you'd like to 621 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: share with everybody before we go? 622 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 3: No, I just if you're listening to this episode, that 623 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 3: probably means you listen to all the rest of the episodes. 624 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 3: So I want to just thank you for listening. Feel 625 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 3: free to contact me on social media or through Tenderfoot. 626 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 3: I'd love to hear your thoughts overall. And also I 627 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 3: really want to know did this episode ruin the podcast 628 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 3: for you or did it support and help you're listening 629 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 3: and understanding of the podcast. I truly mean that because 630 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 3: that'll allow me to do less or more of these 631 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 3: in the future. 632 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 2: Awesome, and you heard it from him. He reads the comments, 633 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: he takes them to heart, he collects the data. It 634 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 2: will definitely be taken to heart. 635 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. So thank you Laura for a great interview and 636 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 3: for listening and ask him great questions. 637 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you. 638 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 2: Thank you for doing this, especially because it's something that 639 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: you were resisted to and I really loved it.