1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show. Welcome to the Saturday Podcast. If 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: you've listened to our show for any length of time, 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna hear me quoting Milton Friedman, and you're gonna 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: hear me quoting his star student, the greatest black thinker 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: and writer alive today and perhaps the greatest thinker and 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: writer alive today without regard to race, which is a 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: pretty amazing thing to say, and I think it happens 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: to be true. It also happens to be true that 9 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: the greatest Supreme Court justice alive since Antonin Scalia passed 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: happens to be a black man, and yet nobody's naming 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: anything for him. My goodness, we name all sorts of 12 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: things for all sorts of black elected officials, activists. I 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: said that with air quotes. 14 00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: If you didn't hear it. 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: What about Thomas Soul, What about Clarence Thomas. These are 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: individuals that children can look up to that look like 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: them if they happen to be black. Well, we know 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: Thomas Soul as an economist, he's been one of the 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: great conservative thinkers of our time. But did you know 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: he was once a Marxist? He was something changed, what 21 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: caused him to make that radical shift in his outlook 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: on capitalism. This is an interview he did several years 23 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: ago where he explains his shift in philosophy working for 24 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 1: the federal government and realizing that liberals use good causes 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: like minimum wage because it sounds good, but that's not 26 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: really why they're doing what they're doing. They don't the 27 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: folks defending the usaid wasteful dollars, oh, because children in 28 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: poor countries will die. They weren't being saved with this 29 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: money anyway. Anyway, this is one of my favorites. We 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: do use a fair amount of Thomas Soul on Saturday, 31 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: and the reason is because we figure on Saturday, you're 32 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: less likely to be in the grind of going to work, 33 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: coming from work and you know, kind of halfway distracted. 34 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: Your Saturday podcast in our Minds is an opportunity to 35 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: do a longer form piece where you can really stop 36 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: and think about what you think about in the world 37 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: and really process something on a different level. It's magazine 38 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: versus a newspaper, So enjoy. You grew up in. 39 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 3: Harlem, gropped out of high school to join the Marine 40 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 3: Corps during the Korean War, received an undergraduate degree from Harvard, 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 3: a master's from Columbia, and your doctorate from the University 42 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 3: of Chicago, all of which pales by comparison with the 43 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: fact that you once tried out for the Brooklyn Dodgers. 44 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 3: But during this period from Harlem to the University of Chicago, 45 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 3: throughout your twenties, you've said you spent most of the 46 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 3: decade of your twenties as a Marxist. 47 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 4: Yes, why what was it? What was the attraction? Well, 48 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 4: I guess I first it was very puzzle. See, there's 49 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 4: one little correction I would make. At age sixteen, I 50 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 4: was a dropout, high school dropout, and I went to 51 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 4: work full time as a Western Union messenger. 52 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 3: And delivering telegrams. 53 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 2: Delivery. 54 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: We'd better say that because there will be a generation 55 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: that won't know what Western Union was. 56 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: Because that's true too. 57 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 4: And so I worked in the area of Manhattan called 58 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 4: the Chelsea District, which is around twenty third Street Ninth Avenue, 59 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 4: And at the end of the day I had several 60 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 4: ways of getting back home. The easiest, fastest way was 61 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 4: a subway, which was a nickel. In those days, when 62 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 4: I was feeling flushed, I might go for a bus 63 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 4: for a dime and then when I was really getting reckless, 64 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 4: I would take the Fifth Avenue bus, which was the 65 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 4: elite of the buses. For Fifth was fifteen cents, and 66 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 4: so I would walk over to Fifth Avenue take that bus, 67 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 4: and it would take me up through all the glamorous 68 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,119 Speaker 4: parts of Fifth Avenue, past the Empire State Building, past 69 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 4: the great stores and things of that sort, and then 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 4: on fifty seventh Street it would turn this is just 71 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 4: the elite part of town. The park starts, yes, and 72 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 4: then and you fifth, This park starts at fifty ninth, oh, sorry, 73 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 4: fifty to fifty seventh. I would turn over again the 74 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 4: same kind of scene, past Carnegie Hall, up Columbus Circle. 75 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 4: There was no Trump Tower at that time, and on 76 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 4: up to about seventy second Street, and go out to 77 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: Fifth Avenue, out to the Riverside Drive, which is another 78 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 4: elite area. And so for miles after that you'd have 79 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 4: all these wonderful luxury apartment buildings and so on. 80 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: And finally around one hundred and twenty. 81 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 4: Ninth or thirtieth Street, it would go on a long 82 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 4: viaduct and then it would do a right turn back 83 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 4: into the occupied area, and there you'd see the tenements 84 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 4: and I would wonder why is this, I mean, why 85 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 4: this huge disparity, And there was nobody else, There was 86 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 4: no other other explanation around. 87 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: There was nothing. 88 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 4: There was nothing there other than Marxism. And I stumbled across. 89 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 4: I had not read marks, but I bought a second 90 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 4: hand pair set of encyclopedias, small set for some ridiculously 91 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 4: low price, and there I looked up Karl Marx. I'd 92 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 4: heard the name, and the stuff that he said seemed 93 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 4: to make sense, and then later on I would get 94 00:05:54,400 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 4: more and more into it. And that was that the 95 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 4: other rich had gotten rich by taking from the poor, right, 96 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 4: And well that was that was my explanation. But what 97 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 4: is interesting there was no other explanation out there, really, 98 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 4: and that's true largely in our colleges universities today. 99 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 3: So by the time you went to Harvard you had 100 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 3: already become intellectually engaged with Marxism, yes, and remained, And 101 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,119 Speaker 3: Harvard didn't talk you out of it. And the study 102 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 3: of economics at Harvard didn't talk you out of it, 103 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 3: nor did getting a master's at Columbia, nor did getting 104 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 3: a doctorate at Chicago dissuade you from Marxism. Is that 105 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 3: you studied with Milton Friedman. Of all people, how could 106 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 3: you have sat in Milton Friedman's classroom and remained a Marxist. 107 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 4: Some people had just stubborn. But what really changed me 108 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 4: was not the University of Chicago. It was my first 109 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 4: job working in a professional capacity the government. 110 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: I was a summer intern. 111 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 4: This is after Chicago or no, no, while I was 112 00:06:58,520 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 4: still a graduate student. 113 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: Got it, uh. 114 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 4: And so during the summer of vacation I worked in 115 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 4: the US Department of Labor, and I began to realize 116 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 4: for a number of things that the government is not 117 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 4: simply the personification of the general will, like resol or others. 118 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: The government is an institute. 119 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 4: The government institutions have their own institutional uh interests. I 120 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 4: wanted to involved the minimum wage law. I was a 121 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 4: big supporter of that, but I also knew that there 122 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 4: was an argument that minimum wage law is simply price 123 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 4: low wage workers out of a job. And my first 124 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 4: assignment was was dealt with minimum wages in Puerto Rico. 125 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 4: And as I looked at the numbers, I would see 126 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 4: as they would jack up the minimum wages is a 127 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 4: number number of jobs would go down and so forth. 128 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 2: But there were two explanations. 129 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 4: One was that of the economists that you priced the 130 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 4: people out of a job, and the other was that 131 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 4: there there were hurricanes, and it comes to Puerto Rico, 132 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 4: you see, during the sugar harvest, and therefore I was 133 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 4: studying the sugar industry, and therefore it destroyed a lot 134 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 4: of the crop. Therefore you wouldn't hire as many workers. Now, 135 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 4: Chicago had been taught that if there are two different theories, 136 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 4: there should be somewhat some empirical evidence in principle that 137 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 4: could distinguish what would happen under one theory from what 138 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 4: would happen under the other. 139 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: And so I wrestled with that for the most. 140 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 4: Of the summer. And one morning I came in and 141 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 4: I said, I got it. Well, we need a data 142 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 4: on the amount of sugarcane standing in the fields before 143 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 4: the hurricane struck. And as I waited for the congratulations, 144 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 4: I could see stricken looks around me in the room, 145 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 4: like this guy has stumbled on something and they will 146 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 4: ruin us all, you know. And they said, well, we 147 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 4: don't have those data. I said, oh, I'll bet the 148 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 4: Department of Agriculture has it. He said, well, but that 149 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 4: does mean we have it, you'd have to have a 150 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 4: request go up the chain of command to the Secretary 151 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,359 Speaker 4: of Labor. He would then confer with the Secretary of Agriculture. 152 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 4: It would come down the chain in the Department of 153 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 4: agricolagship that whoever has those numbers. And so I said, good, well, 154 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 4: they say a journey of one thousand miles begins with 155 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 4: a single step. So I will now submit my request 156 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 4: to the Secretary of Labor, which I did, and I 157 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 4: am still patiently awaiting this reply. The US Department of 158 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 4: Labor administers the minimum wage law, and the money in 159 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 4: the careers of perhaps a third or some other significant 160 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 4: percentage of of the Labor Department resources come from administering 161 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 4: the minimum wage law. One of the real forces of 162 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 4: all this is that the law itself, Section four D, 163 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: I still remember, requires the Labor Department to study the 164 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 4: employment effects of minimum wages, and those studies are absolutely 165 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 4: a farce. In fact, some years after I left, I 166 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: did an article saying why those studies were a farce. 167 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 4: And when I came back later on to the Labor 168 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 4: Department to do some research, one of the older librarians 169 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 4: who remembered me turned to the younger library, and you said, 170 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 4: this is the man who wrote that article that has 171 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 4: everybody up at arms. 172 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: So you became you began to be dissuaded about of Marxism. 173 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 4: And of government in general, because the government is not 174 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 4: out there at the personification of the national interest, right, 175 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 4: they have their own interests. And the labor departments was 176 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 4: clearly an interest in keeping the minimum wage because that's 177 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 4: that's their jobs and careers, all right, and power. 178 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: Not long ago I asked you, Tom, what opinion, what view. 179 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 2: Do you regret having held? 180 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 3: And you replied that for more than a decade, more 181 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 3: than a decade, you had been a serious Marxist. 182 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 2: Yes, explain that. Well. 183 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 4: As a decade began, I was in living in poverty. 184 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: How old, nineteen years old? 185 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 3: Nineteen So you're in you're starting college at that stage? 186 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: No, no, all right. 187 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 4: I mean I was out there working in unskilled jobs 188 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 4: and trying to make ends meet, living in a rooming 189 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 4: house on Harlem, right, And I'd heard about marks. But 190 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 4: I finally someplace found that an old second hand set 191 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 4: of encyclopedias for a dollar nineteen cents, which I bought, 192 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 4: and there was an article on Carl Marx. It seemed 193 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 4: to me that he explained these situations so well that. 194 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 3: The situation was what that you took the train from 195 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 3: Harlem down to the lower end the other way around. 196 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: Coming home from work, I would sometimes take the bus 197 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 4: and it would go right up Fifth Avenue, past all 198 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 4: these glitzy places like cross fifty seventh Street where all 199 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 4: the fancy stores were at Carnegie Hall and the rest 200 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 4: of it, and then finally, as I got near home, 201 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 4: it would kind of turn off this viaduct into one 202 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 4: hundred and thirty fifth Street, and there was that sudden 203 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,599 Speaker 4: change in the whole scene at that point, And the 204 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 4: question was why was that? 205 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: And the problem was to two problems. 206 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 4: One was that no one else had given any explanation. 207 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 4: There was no competing explanation that sounded plausible. 208 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: In your life so far, yes, right, yes. 209 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 4: And the other was that no one had cautioned me 210 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 4: that it takes an awful lot more knowledge before you. 211 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 2: Can make these guys of sleeping judgments in any case. 212 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 4: But fortunately I'd been taught earlier to respect facts and 213 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 4: so on, and so even during my years as a Marxist, 214 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 4: I would read things by people who weren't Marxist. 215 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 2: I would read facts and so forth. 216 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 3: But you I have heard you say many times that 217 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 3: you got a good education in the New York City 218 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: public schools in Harlem. 219 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: Yes, so they did. 220 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 3: They taught you to think. They may not have taught you, 221 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 3: Adam Smith that the offensive free markets, but they taught. 222 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 2: You to think. 223 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: Yes, all right now, but keep continue the story if 224 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 3: you would. You're a Marxist at the age of nineteen, 225 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 3: taking the bus home from the southern third of Manhattan, Iran. 226 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 2: All the way up to Harlem. 227 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: You remain a Marxist at the University of Chicago under 228 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 3: the instruction of Milton Milton Friedman. Yes, how did that? 229 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 3: If Milton couldn't crack you, you were a tough nut? 230 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: Well, uh, but what what? 231 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 4: But one summer working for the government as an economist 232 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 4: was enough to show me that the government was really 233 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 4: not the answer. That the government that the level of 234 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 4: understanding among the people. And I was in a program 235 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 4: for interns where we saw the top officials of the 236 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 4: Labor Department and so forth, and I realized, these guys 237 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 4: are not going to save us. 238 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 3: In other words, they had no They were not the 239 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: priestly cast that you might have been led to expect 240 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: they were ordinary chumps, bashing their way through life as 241 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 3: best they could, like anybody else. Yes, I see, all right, 242 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 3: and so but intellectually, all right, you spend a summer 243 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 3: working for the federal government and. 244 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: That cures you of Marxism. 245 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 3: Yes, But intellectually, when do you pick up the thread 246 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 3: of free markets? 247 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 4: Oh? 248 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 2: I guess well, well I had always. 249 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 3: Been you thought back to what Milton said, right, not. 250 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 4: Just Milting, but Hayek and the rest of them, because 251 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 4: I had read all those people while I was still 252 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 4: a Marxist. 253 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 3: A couple of you. Have an essay in here entitled 254 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 3: Marx the manh yeah quote Marx's angry apocalyptic visions existed 255 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: before he discovered capitalism as the focus of such visions. 256 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: Explain that what. 257 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 4: You can there are the poems he wrote in his 258 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 4: teen years. One of them in particular, I remember what 259 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 4: So let's the effect that then will I walk walk 260 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 4: god like and triumphant through the ruins of the world. 261 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 4: So he has these uh apocalyptic visions early on before 262 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 4: he said what you had thought about capitalism? 263 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: And what the subtext does? I take it of your 264 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 3: It's entitled Marx not the Marx the political philosopher. Not 265 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 3: Marx the economists, but Marks the man. And what you're 266 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 3: what I felt reading that essay is you're in effect. 267 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 3: It's like the scene in The Wizard of Oz where 268 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 3: they pull back the curt Yes, that's right, great and 269 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: powerful Oz turns out to be an ordinary, cranky human being. 270 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: And what you're saying is Marxism is fascinating in some 271 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 3: highly intelligibent in some cases, in some ways kind of. 272 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: A nut, yes, just a man, Yes, all right. 273 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: Another quotation from that essay. The members of the Communist League. 274 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 3: We're talking now about the mid nineteenth century Marx and 275 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 3: Engels form or they participate in the Communist League. The 276 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: members of the Communist League were overwhelmingly intellectuals and professionals. 277 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: It had the same kind of social composition that would 278 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: in later years characterize many radical groups in which the 279 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 3: youthful offspring of privilege called themselves the proletariat. Marxism is 280 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: the conceit of rich kids with fancy educations. 281 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 4: Yes, you see that in the what is this thing 282 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 4: called the Occupying Wall Street group? All these middle class 283 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 4: accents and so on. I mean, how many working class 284 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 4: people can or to take a month off to sit 285 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 4: around in parks and carry on and have all their 286 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 4: electronic equipment with them, but all the rest of it, 287 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 4: I mean, come sleeping. 288 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 3: At sleeping bags with a first rate down feathers. So, 289 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 3: but at what stage was there a moment when you said, wait, 290 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: a moment? These putative Marxists and leftists and liberals, to 291 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 3: use the term the way it's used in this country, 292 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 3: as a leftist they have they have no knowledge of 293 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: nor concern for what life is like up one hundred 294 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: and thirtieth Street. That's right, there was a moment. Was 295 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: there a moment or an incident when that just struck you? 296 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 3: Or that's kind of a progressive realization, progressive realization. 297 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: If you like the Michael Berry Show in podcast, please 298 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a 299 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: nice review of our podcast. 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