WEBVTT - Let's Talk About Slack, Baby 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.800 Welcome to game Plan, this show about our lives at work. 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.560 I'm Francesca Leavie, editor of the game Plan section at Bloomberg, 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:21.759 and I'm Rebecca Greenfield, a reporter at Bloomberg, where I 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:26.560 cover workplace culture. This week, how group chat platforms like 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.000 Slack are changing the way we communicate at work. Coming 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:31.800 up in a little bit, we'll talk to Dana Evans, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:34.720 a reporter at New York Magazine who has a complicated 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.640 relationship with Slack and group chat that she's written about extensively. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.720 She's going to explain to us how it is that 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.839 an enterprise workplace software affected her life so much she 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.239 wrote a personal essay about it. But first of all, 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.320 let's let's get out of the way what group chat is, Becca, 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.920 you want to give the basic description. Slack is group chat, 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.840 and just from now on. There are lots of different 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.000 group chats, but I think we're just going to use 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.080 Slack a shorthand for all of them, because it's a 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.080 really popular, notable one. But yeah, there are others like 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.920 hip chat and campfire, and all of them basically are 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:10.960 just chat rooms where you hang out with your coworkers 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.280 all day and it's kind of a primary way of 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:17.360 communicating with coworkers, and it's work sanctioned, so it's kind 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.480 of like your work email, but chat right and you 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:24.360 can email people one on one, or message people one 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.840 on one through this app, or talk to them in 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.839 special rooms that are divided by department or by team, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.280 or by project you're working on, or by anything you 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.360 make up right, Like you can make a slack room 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.280 for I don't know, talking about the Real Housewives of Atlanta, 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.160 Is that a one of those? Yeah, that's that is 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.360 one of the housewives and probably a really popular slack room. Yeah, 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.080 i'd say, I don't know what. I don't know how 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.160 it rates against the other Real Housewives. I mean, it 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.000 depends on your taste. But you know, a girl, I know, 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.120 I'm like an O C. I don't watch the Real Housewives. Sure, yeah, 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.920 I mean either um so. But anyway, so what we're 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.080 talking about here, on its face, doesn't sound that unusual 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.120 or new, right, Like it's chat rooms have been around 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.720 since basically the dawn of the consumer Internet, Like when 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.720 the Internet was sort of commercialized in the mid early 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:18.520 mid nineties, that's how people communicated on like a O 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:20.960 L chat rooms. Yeah, I think the only thing I 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:24.799 did online as a young young kid online was check 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.640 my email for I don't know what and then go 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:29.799 to A O L chat rooms and pretend to be 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.400 eighteen years old, which is really, how old were you really? 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.360 I was probably I don't know what. What year do 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.919 you think this was? Like? So yeah, I was really 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:44.040 I was like six to eight. Wow, you're pretending to Yeah, 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.120 I don't know, I don't know what that says about, 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:50.840 like society, But so yeah, these chat rooms are similar 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.079 in form to the A O L chat rooms, different 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.840 and function I would say, So nobody's asking a s 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:02.760 L because you know everybody and age, sex location, right 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.160 a popular query on a L chat rooms. So yeah, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.200 they are different than AMIL chat rooms because it's very 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.600 work related. I mean, it was made specifically for offices 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:16.080 for work, so a lot of the conversations are about work. 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.600 But then there are also a lot of conversations that 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:21.359 aren't about work, which is kind of why it's gotten 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:24.400 so popular and my people like using it so much. Right, So, 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:26.680 like all of these companies came into this space kind 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.480 of at a time when the modern office was ripe 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.920 for a new way of communicating. Would you say, I 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:37.320 think the word you're looking for is disruption. No, I 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.240 wasn't looking for it, but it found found you. Yeah, 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.160 I mean, like everyone hates email. It's like a thing 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.960 people love to hate. H Let's talk about that a 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.560 little bit, because I feel like the idea of an 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:54.200 enterprise workplace chat room feels new or had such room 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.680 to take off. The way it has is because we've 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:01.760 reached a tipping point with how much seem to hate email, 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:04.160 which once was supposed to be the solution to all 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.960 our problems. Right before email, We don't before email. We 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:12.720 just grunted at each other before email. Obviously that we're 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:17.520 plugged into walls. Yeah, people spend more and more of 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.400 their time at work at email. One stat I found 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.280 was that people spent thirteen hours a week out of 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:26.320 their forty hour work week answering emails. It's like, not 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.240 very fun. That's a shocking number of hours to spend. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.200 That's like all of the waking hours in one day. 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:35.600 So if you spend five days at work a week, 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.760 one of those is consumed by email. Maybe if we 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.040 had no email at work, we could argue for a 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.240 four day work week, since we spend a whole day 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.000 answering email. Maybe, but then how would we communicate with 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.560 all of our colleagues who work from home or in 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:54.200 office is abroad Slack No, But yeah, so email is 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.839 just I don't think that I have a troubled relationship 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:03.840 with email. I again, have that I am not. You're 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.560 not troubled by not responding to email, right, I guess 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.640 I'm rude. I just don't answer emails. I just I 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.479 use it kind of like how you know, I use 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.200 it for what I want to use it for. I 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.080 have a troubled relationship with email, and I also don't 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.120 answer emails. But then I'm plagued with guilt about it, 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.880 and that must be hard. Yeah, Slack kind of came 0:05:23.920 --> 0:05:26.760 along and was like, here's a much more casual way 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.560 to communicate with your coworkers. The conversations tend to be 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.360 way more casual. It's a lot easier. There's some fun 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.760 integrated into slack. There's like a very simple command for 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:41.599 putting in gifts or gifts whatever you prefer is correct, 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.440 and so that kind of makes the conversations very informal. 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.520 It replaces a lot of annoying type of email. I 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:52.599 think like it doesn't replace email completely, but kind of 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:56.000 the annoying like just checking in on something email, which 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.800 is can be like an annoyance and turn into a 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.120 monster very quickly. And then also because it's way more 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:03.960 fun than an email, which has kind of become a 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:09.240 very formalized form of communication, people really gravitated, right, Like 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.000 when we talk about it being fun compared to email, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.360 I think if you've never never worked on a chat 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:16.760 platform at work or on Slack, you might not know 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.360 what we mean. But it it's sort of like designed 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:21.479 in the language of the Internet, Like it's just kind 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.800 of easier to communicate in the way that you might 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.039 normally like send somebody a text or tweet something. In 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.040 the interfering, it's more like talking. And that's another thing 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.279 about Slack. It has also in addition to being a 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.240 sort of email replacement, it's a kind of a meeting replacement, 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.479 another like much hated part of office life, Like people 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.440 hate going to pointless meetings where everybody is just kind 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.720 of performing. So now you have a lot of these 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.280 conversations on Slack, So give me a sense of the growth, 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:54.680 because we're not now talking about something that's really even 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.560 that niche anymore. Yeah, no, it It grew from a 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.400 hundred twenty thousand years years two years ago to like 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:05.599 millions of people logging in today. I see tons of 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.880 people on their phones using slack out and about in 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.640 New York City all the time. And it isn't just 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:13.880 it's not just a couple of industries using it. Now 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:19.760 it's spreading so mainstream right tech media startups. NASA's jet 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:26.360 propulsion laboratory is on slack that it's been reported slack 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:31.920 slack chapters. Yeah, no slack, I mean slack loves championing 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.840 this great get for them because it shows like like, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:37.160 this isn't just something for like a bunch of young 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.720 tech bros. This is something that's useful for office life 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:45.160 of any kind. So it's a real phenomenon. And it 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:47.760 came about as a way of solving a lot of 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.680 the efficients, a lot of the efficiency and communication problems 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.840 that everybody was having at work. And has it done that? 0:07:55.840 --> 0:08:01.600 So obviously not. There is a slack lash that has started. 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.000 Slacklash being a term that you coined, I believe, so 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.440 I believe I coined it, and I wrote a piece 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.440 back in January that was titled You're about to hate 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.560 Slack as much as you hate email, and just kind 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:19.680 of made the point that this communication at work is 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.480 fraught and stressful and and it's starting to stress people out. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.520 I find it very stressful posting in these group platforms 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:28.800 all the time. Like I have a lot of like 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.679 social anxiety about what I post inside a Slack chat 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.160 room and like who's responding and who's not, and like 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:36.880 I don't really want to have to think about that 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.160 at work when I have a million other things going on, 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.640 Like that is a productivity suck. My anxiety is sucking 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.880 up my productivity. And there's another downside, which is that 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.400 you can forget because it's so easy to type in 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.640 a Slack message or a stupid joke that you might 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.920 not make in a more polished context. It's easy to 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:58.560 forget that everything that you write is on the record 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.719 and your employer knows about it, and it's going to 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.000 live forever, even if it feels really temporal. And actually, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.080 if you don't believe me, let's listen to an example 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.200 of kind of the worst case scenario of that, and 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:18.079 what is a campfire? Transferred campfire is a chat tool, 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.000 And then if we go down just giving the middle 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.520 sections and entry. I can't be it, says you, guys 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.080 don't even know how good this whole Cogan shape is 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.480 f Megan Fox. And then Max Are replies, whole Cogan 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:36.200 fuc k is Megan Fox. Sorry, I don't really like 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.360 to say that. The works on the record, um, and 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.079 then k WSAs she wishes. He gets really tender at 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.560 the end, a really tender like drop. Do you know 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:50.520 what that's a reference to. It's the extension of a 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:58.520 joke about um. The joke is I can manager. Okay. 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.720 So what you just heard was the an editor at 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:05.000 the website Gawker explaining to a lawyer who appears to 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:09.120 have very little sense of humor what he meant and 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.760 his colleagues meant months or even years earlier, when they 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:17.160 were discussing on Campfire, one of these group chat platforms, 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.840 a sex tape that they were about to release featuring 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.400 a former professional wrestler, Hulk Hogan. Um. And this is 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.760 a court case, highly publicized court case, where the Hulk 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.880 was suing Gawker for releasing the sex tape. And I 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.120 don't think any of the people who were making these 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:40.920 blue jokes in Campfire ever expected to hear them mentioned again, 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.400 let alone read aloud in open court by their editor. Yeah, 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.040 when you I saw. I've read the transcripts of their 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.400 chats because they're part of evidence, and it's just like 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.960 all jokes left and right, jokes. Everybody is just joking 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:57.520 about Hulk Coogan's penis and the tender leg drop joke, 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.840 and yeah, using a lot of slang, and it's very 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.040 clear that, I mean, for most people, this wouldn't even 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.800 look like an appropriate workplace conversation, right. I think Gawker 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.160 is kind of known for an edgy or style, and 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.120 I think probably even in the newsroom it's employees speak 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.080 a little more freely than some others, and this is 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:21.600 like obviously like the most casual form of their communications. 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.160 And like you said, there's no way they thought they'd 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.880 ever see those again. I think in these chat platforms, 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.720 you feel like it's like disappears once you type it, 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.520 like because it's like literally a feed that like scrolls up, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.240 it's gone, but it's obviously not. Yes, you are supposed 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.080 to never I've been told by lawyers, never type in anything, 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.720 type or write anything you wouldn't want on the front 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:44.760 page of the New York Times, which I feel like 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.960 it's a bit of a dated like guidelines, like maybe 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.679 it's on the front page of Gawker or like a 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:53.680 viral tweet, like, but that's the thing, Like it seems 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.160 like we have to relearn this with every new technology. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:00.600 Like most people are pretty savvy about incorporating that advice 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.920 when it comes to sending an email. You wouldn't. If 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:04.640 you have to have a conversation that's kind of sensitive, 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.320 you know, you should probably have it over the phone 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.400 or in person and not over email. But for some reason, 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.840 because lack is new, because it feels kind of off 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.560 the grid or fun or social, people just don't have 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:19.000 the same relationship to it that they do with email. Yeah, 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.400 email used to be fun when it first entered offices, 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.240 people gossipped and made jokes. And then when I think 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.720 people started getting in trouble for these things and it 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.800 became more like formalized in the workplace, it became this 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:37.080 more formal, boring, strictly work related tool. Part of why 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.120 we hate it so much. And but slack is so 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:42.839 new and that behaviors seems so casual. It's like something 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.520 has to have been publicly subpoenaed in a hundred court 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.320 cases before, Like we've all heard of court cases that 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.640 feature email transcripts, and our presidential campaign, one of the 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.079 main issues swirling around that is Hillary Clinton's emails and 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.200 what they say and to whom they were sent. And 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:02.880 you know the idea that I mean, yes, of course 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.600 people keep making mistakes on emails, but it's like, this 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.800 is the first example of the sort of clinical examination 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.640 of a group chat, of the campfire transcript that we're 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:15.400 kind of used to seeing. This is the first high 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.080 profile example of that kind of treatment of a group 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:22.480 chat transcript. Then, you know, with government agencies now starting 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.920 to use slack like their stuff can be foiad this 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.800 is it's work, it's work chat. But all of us 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.160 are so guilty. You know, it's like we're talking to 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:34.679 our friends, right, And that kind of confusion between how 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.599 to treat slack, whether it's a work thing or a 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:38.679 personal thing, is something that is very much on the 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:40.840 mind of our guest. So I think it's a great 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.480 time to introduce her. Dana Evans. She's a writer for 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.880 New York Magazine, and back in January she wrote an 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:53.000 article called are my Coworkers slacking off without me, Dana, 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:54.920 We're very happy to have you here. What do you 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.719 think of how we described slack? Did we basically get 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.960 it right? Yeah? I mean I think that that really 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.880 covers it. That's the basis of the article is like 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.960 it makes work seem fun, which I think is good 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:11.280 and bad. What is your current relationship status with slack? 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.760 I'd say it's complicated. I try now, I think for 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.600 a while. You know, I started New York Magazine almost 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.000 a year ago now, and I think that when you 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.960 first start, it's sort of a process of like getting 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.200 to know how a company uses it and feeling comfortable 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.120 because it's I think it varies at every place that 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.000 you work, so it's kind of like knowing what the 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.680 company politics are. And I think now our slack channel, 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.400 especially at the Cut, which is where I work at 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:38.800 New York Magazine, we have kind of two separate channels, 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:43.240 one specifically for like very straightforward work stuff, and then 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.880 a second one that is only fun. So it's kind 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.520 of like knowing where to balance, Like you know how 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.080 much time you spend in the fund slack and how 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:52.640 much time you spend in the work slack, and also 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:54.760 how much time you spend completely away from it, which 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.960 I think is really valuable. Do you feel like group 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.360 chat reveals kind of the people who are having a 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.240 little bit too m fun Like just like there's a 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.400 person who like spends too much time hanging out talking 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.240 to people, there's like probably the person who spends way 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.880 too much time in the fun cut. Yeah. Absolutely, I 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:10.800 think that that's that's like what's funny about it though, 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:12.680 because I think it also varies like over you know, 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.280 it changes over time. There's definitely always going to be 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.240 the person who like is really good at multitasking and 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.640 can be slacking all day and also working or that's 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.680 what you think is going on anyway. But and then 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.360 there's the people who never come into the conversation at all. 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:28.920 But there's always the one person who's just like does 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.400 this person do anything oday at all? Or they just 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.720 like constantly talking, So how how are you splitting your time? Like? 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.640 What how are you using slack for me? I think, 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.840 especially my old job, I was really adamant about having 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:42.800 one day where I didn't go into slack at all 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.040 because I feel like, especially in writing, it's so distracting 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.600 to constantly having notifications coming up and now I kind 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.680 of I'm a little bit more like self monitoring. So 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:55.160 I try to have you know, mornings off from it 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.080 if I can possibly, like if I can you know, 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:01.440 focus on writing stuff. But in general, I keep it minimized, 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.360 and my notifications aren't like you know, they don't pop up. 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.400 It's so it's like I have to actually go in 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.720 and check it to see if something is you know, happening. 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.400 But in terms of like the fun stuff, it's hard 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:12.920 to say, like some days you just wake up and 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.480 you really don't feel like being a productive person, I guess, 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.560 and it's so easy to just kind of give into 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.880 the the available fun chat, I guess, And so on 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:25.200 those days, I try to like remember it, this is 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.560 also a job, and I have to actually do things 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.360 for my job. So yeah, it's interesting that you bring 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.800 up that you have to monitor your slack behavior because 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:35.920 we've been talking about how much people love slack, but 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:42.200 those obviously this darker side. And again it's almost as 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.200 if Slack has made our work lives a little bit 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.320 more complicated, like there's now just like another way to 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.640 communicate with people. And before we get into some of 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.320 those more complicated feelings on Slack. We're going to hear 0:16:54.360 --> 0:17:03.560 from some other office workers about their feelings with office chat. 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.280 Slack sucks. I love slack, but I also hate slack. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.679 I'm distracted a lot by it. I enjoy using Slack, 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.800 it might actually encourage negative vices for me, So it 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.800 can be a little bit distracting at times because you 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:24.560 kind of want to be able to catch up on 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:29.119 every single channel, but you generally can't if you're busy 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.200 working on projects. Like when you're in a Slack group, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.960 everything is very instant, which I feel like I'm part 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.240 of a conversation as opposed to an email thread that 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.440 kind of will come out of order or it will 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.479 not reply to the most recent one, but are applied 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.080 to four behind. So you're kind of pulling together threads 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:48.760 of information from different threads of emails when there was 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.240 just too many notifications and being part of too many 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:55.040 channels and setting those notications to like always notified me 0:17:55.160 --> 0:18:01.680 no matter what a So let's talk a little bit 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.359 more about what slack fomo is exactly. Can you define 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:08.800 it a bit for us, Dana, Yeah, I think because 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.399 like I said, like slack makes work seem fun on 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:13.080 days off, or like like I said, I have these 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.520 days where I tried to really bunker down and focus 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.280 on one piece and not being slack at all. You 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:23.080 sort of miss the goofy conversations you're having with your coworkers. 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.359 Even if you're not particularly close with your coworkers. It's 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.399 just fun to like be talking about personal stuff that 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.639 you probably would never actually broached with a lot of 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.440 people that you work with. So it's kind of like 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.600 the fomo aspect comes in when you realize, oh, like 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.639 I took the afternoon off and maybe Beyonce's record came 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:40.400 out or whatever it is like that you would normally 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.600 be talking about, and it's like you weren't there for 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.120 any of that conversation, and you feel kind of like, oh, 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.920 my friends had a really fun day. I wasn't there 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.879 for it, even though it's literally work and that's essentibly 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.320 what the product is for. Do you think you're kind 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.000 of upset about missing out because part of having fun 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.080 at work is part of my job. Job? Yeah, I 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.320 think slack makes you a little bit delusional about what 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.440 work is. And I think that inevitably, you know you're 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.919 supposed to be using this tool for productivity, but Oftentimes 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:11.880 I find myself in these conversations where it's like we're 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:13.760 having so much fun talking about this thing that like 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.000 no work happens for like an hour. And I think 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:17.600 that that is the thing that you end up missing 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.320 because you're maybe you're gone to do actual work. You're 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:24.400 right in your piece. Slack, on the other hand, makes 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.480 a simple d M from your boss at nine pm 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.520 and others to seem less threatening. Oh I'll just answer 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:30.960 her question now, you think so she believes I'm still 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:33.200 at this party though I left a long time ago 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.760 for a different, better one. The different better party is 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:40.040 subsequently your real life exactly. I mean, I've just it's 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.080 so hard for me to imagine any other context where 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.000 we would talk about work, where we would use a 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:47.520 party as a metaphor for work. Right, yeah, absolutely, But 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.560 I think that even that, like the sort of the 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.119 d M aspect of it, and hearing from your editors 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:53.880 and your bosses all the time, I think is like 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.240 it really it makes everything seems so normalized, like, oh, yeah, 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.199 of course I would respond to this thing, and like 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.560 I said, you know, nine pm or whatever, But you 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:06.680 forget that this is an actual work transaction that's happening, 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:09.280 and and sometimes that like, you know, when I do 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.560 get dms like that, maybe I'm at a bar, maybe 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.159 i'm you know, I'm doing something that like probably I 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.479 should take some time to think about responding before I 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:18.480 just shoot something off. But I think it's it makes 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:20.439 everything so casual that it seems like, oh, it's not 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:22.159 a big deal to respond to how I wanted, So 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.679 you'd be less likely to send an email to your 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.399 boss from a bar thing, Yeah, exactly right, because it 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.399 just seems so impersonal just to be like, oh, this 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:31.720 is you know, chat, I'm just talking to her as 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.080 if I'm talking to in person. But it seems like 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:38.040 you you, even though you know it's wrong, at that 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:40.320 d M at nine pm, you seem to be okay 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.800 with it in some ways. But there are some people 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.399 who I think are a little bit angry about that, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.120 and there's been a little bit of a slack lash 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.960 building In the last six months. There have been a 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.879 bunch of articles people talking about notification overload that actually 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.240 it's worse than email because you can send these messages 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.480 all the time, all day. But you seem to have 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.680 a pretty good relationship, a good balance, I would say 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.159 I try. I don't know if I definitely adhere to 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:07.560 the things that I'm saying that I actually take time 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.480 away from it. But I think, you know, especially with 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.160 this sort of like all day aspect, it really makes 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:15.080