1 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's a well worn adage 2 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: that talks about death by a thousand cuts. It implies 3 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: that it's slow and it's painful, something that no one 4 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: would ever want to endure. For years I handle cases 5 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: involved in sharp instruments. I have to say that, in 6 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: all of my years as a death investigator, I don't 7 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: believe I've ever encountered a case involving this many stab 8 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: wounds and so many unanswered questions. I'm talking about twenty, 9 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: not a thousand, but twenty cuts, a case of Ellen Greenberg. 10 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs today. 11 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: I'm joined by my friend Jackie Howard, who's the executive 12 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories. Would Nancy Grace, Jackie, won't you 13 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: tell us about this case? Joe Ellen Greenberg was a 14 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: bride to be. She had just sent out the safety 15 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: dates for her upcoming wedding. By all accounts, she was 16 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: excited about this wedding. Her fiance and living boyfriend went 17 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: to the gym in their apartment complex. He came back 18 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: up and found the door locked. At that time, he 19 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: began beating on the door, calling, texting, but Ellen did 20 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: not answer. He tried to get into the door. That 21 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: fiance finally manages to break the door down, and I'm 22 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: sure most people are thinking, why didn't he just use 23 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: a key? The door had a lock on it, like 24 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: you have at an hotel that has a bar that 25 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: swings across the opening of the door to make it 26 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: impossible to open the door the outside even if you 27 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: have a key. So he's trying to get in. Ellen 28 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: does not answer. He finally manages to break the door down. 29 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: Once he gets inside, he finds Ellen Greenberg on the floor. 30 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: She has been stabbed multiple times, twenty as you said, 31 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,399 Speaker 1: and the knife is still embedded in her chest. Nine 32 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: one woman was called service personnel come and as the 33 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: determination of what happened to Ellen Greenberg has made and 34 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: it's determined to be a suicide. You know, Jackie, we're 35 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: talking about a young woman, healthy, fitwoman. She's a school teacher, 36 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: has got her entire life ahead of her. Seemingly she's 37 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: enjoying life flat like you'd mentioned, she's excited about her 38 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: upcoming nuptials. You know, she's taking the time to send 39 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: out Save the date cars. She's been living with this 40 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: guy for a while, they're making plans, and he goes 41 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: the gym and comes back and after he breaks the 42 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: door down, he finds her on the floor suffering for 43 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: this many wounds. I gotta tell you, Jackie, in over 44 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: the course of my career, I don't ever recall working 45 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: a case where I had an individual that had self 46 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: inflicted sharp force injuries at this number. I mean, this 47 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: is almost an unimaginable number that we're talking about twenty 48 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: because you know, you begin to think, how can anyone 49 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: endure that level of pain. I mean, we all know 50 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: what it's like to cut ourselves, cut ourselves on a 51 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: piece of paper even and it stings. Can you imagine 52 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: driving a knife blade into your body this many times? 53 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: And this is a curious thing. The knife wounds are 54 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: not simply what you might think, just like into the 55 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: abdomen or maybe a single time into the chest. We're 56 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: talking about multiple injuries on not just the chest, but 57 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: also on the back. Now, how does that work. I'm 58 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: trying to understand this and to her neck as well. 59 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: And one of the things that was discovered at autopsy 60 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: was the fact that the knife had actually penetrated the 61 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: cervical spinal column right at about the C one or 62 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: C two level and had actually actually penetrated and touched 63 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: and brushed up against the spinal cord. Now, this is 64 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: almost an unimaginable feat and I don't know that there's 65 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: any way that you can kind of do the arithmetic 66 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: on here to make it come out right. Let me 67 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: jump in here and get just a little explanation for 68 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,919 Speaker 1: folks described for me where exactly the C one and 69 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: C two area is. If folks will at home, just 70 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: think about the first cervical vertebra that you have is 71 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: commonly it's got an interesting name. A lot of people 72 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: aren't aware of it. The very first cervical vertebra that 73 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: we have is actually called the Atlas. And just imagine, 74 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, from mythology, that gigantic man that's holding up 75 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: the earth. I'm sure that many people have seen that 76 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: Atlas was his name, and that you know, I think 77 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: that early anatomous. They felt like, well, that's that's a 78 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: great representation. People can understand that I need it. I'm 79 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: kind of a simple minded fellow. So if I'm thinking 80 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: about something holding something up, I'm thinking about that C 81 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: one that's that first cervical vertebra. That's actually supporting the head, 82 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: all right, and everything that we do, all of our 83 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: actions are dictated by our head and our brain. So 84 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: it's a critical area. As a matter of fact. It's 85 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: so critical that when you look at that areas C one, 86 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: C two, and C three, that's where our brain stem 87 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 1: kind of comes down. It's it's the gateway to our 88 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system. And what folks don't understand that that's 89 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: that's what controls our respirations, that's what controls our heartbeat. 90 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: It's the hub of everything kind of the primal brain, 91 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: those things that occur without us thinking about it. You're 92 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: talking directly at the base of the skull, at the 93 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: back of the neck. Yeah, we're right at the base 94 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: of the skull in this particular case, Jackie. And that's 95 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: one of the things that's so troubling. Now, I'll put 96 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: it to you this way. If you were let's just 97 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: put it in the context of, say, if you were 98 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: a professional killer, if you were looking to take someone out, Okay, 99 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: that is a primary area where you're almost guaranteed, say 100 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: if you're firing a gun for a kill shot, because 101 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: you know that you're going to take them out. In 102 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: that split second of time, and the fact that she 103 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: had this injury there is significant. It's very significant because 104 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: you think about this and you say, well, how in 105 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: the world could anybody recover from that type of injury 106 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: to go on and continue to stab himself. Remember, that's 107 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: only one of twenty stab wounds that she sustained one, 108 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: And in addition to that stab wound that we've just 109 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 1: reflected upon, she's also got a real nasty gash on 110 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: the back of her head. It's kind of a if 111 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: you'll think of a half moon or a quarter moon. 112 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: It's kind of elliptical in shape, kind of an odd, 113 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: an odd injury, and it appears, according to what the 114 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: autopsy report was saying, that the edges what we call 115 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: the margins of that injury are clean, which more than 116 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: likely indicates that this was generated by an edged weapon. So, 117 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, you think about how can someone endure this 118 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: kind of trauma? And upon further examination of Ellen's body, 119 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: when you begin to look at her arms and her legs, 120 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: there are other, I don't know, contusions, little bruises that 121 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: are on her body. Now the pathologist says that they're 122 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: resolving in nature, so he doesn't go into great detail 123 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: relative to how distant they might be in the past 124 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: or how recent they are. But there's one major thing 125 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: that is left out in this autopsy report that I've 126 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: discovered that in cases I've been involved in, is essential 127 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: relative to someone's ability to handle a weapon or handle 128 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: a knife in this particular case, and that is arm lengths. 129 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: You know, just think about it. We all don't have 130 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: the same length arms do well. You know, you think 131 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: about the measurement from your shoulder to your elbow, and 132 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: from your elbow to your wrist, and from your wrist 133 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: to the tips of your fingers. All of that equates 134 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: into this thought of what is your ability to wield 135 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: a knife in order to self inflict an injury? And 136 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: you have to look at the injuries that Ellen had 137 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: on her body. How is it that you can take 138 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: a knife and literally drive it into your own back 139 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: And you have to think, well, maybe you could do 140 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: that once, maybe you could do it twice, But then 141 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: you think all of the pain associated because once you've 142 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: driven it into those areas, once you have made contact 143 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: with your skin, you've cut through nerves, you've cut through 144 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: the muscle, and you have literally gone to bone at 145 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: that point. How much pain is associated with you're gonna 146 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: tell me, you're gonna do that over and over and 147 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: over again. I don't think so. I mean, the individual 148 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: that would be capable of self inflicting this kind of 149 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: injury would, in my estimation at least, have to be 150 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 1: a raving psychotic. And there is no indication, no indication whatsoever, 151 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: that Ellen Greenberg suffered from any kind of acute psychoses whatsoever. 152 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: I mean, this poor young lady. She had anxiety. Who 153 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: in the world doesn't have anxiety? She had trouble sleeping 154 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: at night. Well, she was taking clinas apam. Do you 155 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: realize how many people in our population take clinaise apam? 156 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: And there is no association between clinas apam and psychotic 157 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: behavior that I've been able to find in the literature. 158 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: Everybody has trouble sleeping every now and then. She's got 159 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: a lot on her she's teaching in public schools, she's 160 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: you know, planning a wedding, and so in that since 161 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: there's no evidence to indicate that she's in it some 162 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: kind of frenzied mental state where she could inflict these 163 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: kind of insults to her body, and not just these 164 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: kinds of insults, but to continue to do it over 165 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: and over and over again till finally she takes this 166 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: single edged serrated knife, now that's a state knife, just 167 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: so that you were clear, and buries it in her 168 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: chest where they find it at the scene. And just 169 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: so people can visualize this, if you have access to 170 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: a dollar bill, take that dollar bill out. Okay, look 171 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: at it. I mean look at the face of it. 172 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: From the left side of it to just pass George 173 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: Washington's head, that's ten centimeters. That's how deep this knife 174 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: was buried in her. So you think about that and 175 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: think about all of the pain associated with that. It 176 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: really is a head scratcher. Jackie joh I want to 177 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: take a step back to something that you mentioned a 178 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: minute ago. I hadn't never thought of arm length in 179 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: relation to this case, although obviously it is a very 180 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: important part. But what I was thinking about was flexibility. 181 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm very lucky to be able to scratch 182 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: the back of my neck when it you know, or 183 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: the back of my shoulder blades when I have an itch, 184 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: let alone, to be able to hurt myself, to stab 185 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: myself in the back. Is it possible that despite your 186 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: arm length, that your flexibility gives you the capability to 187 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: create these kinds of injuries. Jackie, I gotta say, that's 188 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: an excellent question. You begin to think about this and 189 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, you know, if you are that flexible, 190 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: all right, Let's say she's in tip top physical shape. 191 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: Maybe she does yoga, she can stretch, she can be 192 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: in I mean, she'd probably do a lot better than 193 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: my old body could do. And you think about doing 194 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 1: this maybe once to be able to manipulate a knife 195 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: in everybody at home kind of think about how you 196 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: would have to hold a knife in order to inflict 197 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: this injury. So you would have to turn the knife 198 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: so that the tip is facing your face, the tip 199 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: of you're looking down, the long axis of the blade 200 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: blade edge is probably up, and then you would have 201 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: to take it and as as your elbow bins, drive 202 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: it into your shoulder blades, down your back near your 203 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: spinal column, into the back of your head. Even if 204 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: you try to do this into the back of your head, 205 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: that's hard to do. You would have to be tremendously flexible. 206 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: And the one thing that folks might not understand or 207 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: grasp all the while that you're doing this. Every time 208 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: you make another little cut, another little nick in your body, 209 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: your pain center is screaming, screaming, over and over again. 210 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: You know, don't do this. Your body's trying to don't 211 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: do it. Don't do it. Is too much pain associated 212 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: with don't do it. But yet you can continue to 213 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: do it, and you are able to be this nimble 214 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: and this flexible in order to facilitate this over and 215 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: over and over and over again. It's absolutely mind blowing. 216 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: That's why myself and a lot of other colleagues of 217 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: mine that have taken a look at this case that 218 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: are forensics folks, we don't understand how plausible this could 219 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: be that someone could actually do this and self inflict 220 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: these insults to their body. But you know, there's really 221 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: no clear answers to this case. One of the fascinating 222 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: things is this, when the autopsy was completed, it was 223 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: determined that she had stabbed herself, according to the m 224 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: in several vital areas, I mean areas in her body 225 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: that would absolutely lead lead to death. She's got both 226 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: sides of her chest cavity and her lungs are filled 227 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: with blood. Okay, so that means that somewhere along the way, 228 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: her ability to respire has been compromised, So her chest 229 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: cavity is filling up with blood, and that's compromising the 230 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: lungs ability to inhalate and exhalate. Also, interestingly enough, in 231 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: your heart. Your heart actually sits in a little sack 232 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: that's called pericardium, percardial sack that's been nicked. Well, not 233 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: only has it been nicked, the aorta has been nicked, 234 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: and that's the major vessel that comes off of the 235 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: heart that supplies that supplies the rest of body with 236 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: oxygenated blood. That pericardial sack around the heart, it's becoming 237 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: engrossed with blood as well, so the heart is laboring 238 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: to beat. All of this time, Not to mention, you've 239 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: got this spinal insult that has taken place with a knife, 240 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: and all the while you telling me that even though 241 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: she is this physically compromised, she's still capable of carrying 242 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: out these self inflicted insults to her body. I just 243 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: I can't see it happening. I don't understand how it's 244 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: even possible. Just suppose for a second that you just 245 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: take your hand, an empty hand, and you move it 246 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: about your body twenty times. Think about that that requires 247 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: a certain amount of energy in order to facilitate this. 248 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: You begin to think about this poor young woman, Ellen Greenberg. 249 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: She's holding a knife in her hand, a serrated edged knife, nonetheless, 250 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: And what they're trying to tell us is that as 251 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: she's hold in this knife, she is inflicting all of 252 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: these injuries to her body, compromising her lungs, her heart, 253 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: and potentially her brain. And yet she's able to keep 254 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: up this pace with a lack of oxygenated blood. Remember, 255 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: what the pathologist is saying in the autopsy report is 256 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: that steadily her chest cavity, her chest cavity on both sides, 257 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,359 Speaker 1: is filling up with blood. Her paricardium, which actually encases 258 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: the heart, is filling up with blood. They even make 259 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: note of a superficial subrachnoid hemorrhage in her brain, which 260 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: is putting pressure on her brain all the while, And 261 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: they expect us to believe that she could facilitate inflicting 262 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: all of these injuries upon herself while all the while 263 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: just so slowly depriving herself of much needed oxygenated blood. 264 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I'm just not buying it. I 265 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: don't see how it's physically possible for her to have 266 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: done this in her apartment. They're all alone. How is 267 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: this possible that she could have done it? And you 268 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: know what, it's not like she wandered over the entire 269 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: apartment while she's doing it. Everything that occurred appears to 270 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: have occurred in one spot, and that's in her kitchen. Joe. 271 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the forensics itself. We've talked about the 272 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: body and the wounds that she had, but let's talk 273 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: about the forensics of the room itself. We know that 274 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: the door was broken, we know that Ellen was found 275 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: with the knife still in her body. She was found 276 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: in a seated position, which I think most people find odd. 277 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: What strikes you about this scene? I think the fact 278 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: that she is seated in an upright position. It almost 279 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: seems unnatural, doesn't it. And the fact that this boyfriend 280 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: that discovered her, he would have made note of that 281 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: at that time, that she was in this position with 282 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: a knife in her chest and didn't lay her to 283 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: the floor. You know, they gave him active to start 284 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: CPR on her, but he's saying, she's got a knife 285 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: in her chest. Can you imagine this and it should. 286 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: It was probably a horror show in this environment. There's 287 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: probably blood all over the floor, it's all over her 288 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: obviously it's going to be on her hands and this knife. 289 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: I've actually seen the pictures of the knife. The blood 290 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: is just encrusted around the handle of the knife as 291 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: well as on the surface of the blade as well. 292 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: They had to remove it at autopsy, So you begin 293 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: to think about this, it seems almost unnatural. But one 294 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: of the really curious things about this Jackie is that 295 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: we know that gravity is a constant force in the universe. 296 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: It impacts our bodies everywhere we go. One of the 297 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: interesting things that was noted about Ellen's body is that 298 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: she actually had a streak of blood that was coming 299 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: out of her ear. That get this was traveling from 300 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: front to back, so that if if it's it would 301 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: violate the laws of nature. It's almost as if she 302 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: had sustained an injury while laying back. The blood came 303 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: out of her ear and dripped down to the floor, 304 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: and then she sat up and left this blood stained 305 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: mark on her ear, And that's that's just not possible. 306 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: It almost implies that some way, in some way, her 307 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: body may have been manipulated. And that's why it's so 308 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: key that when they arrived at the scene, what exactly 309 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: did they find relative to her body and the remainder 310 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: of the scene. You know, what, how long had she 311 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: been down? Because the timeline here is crucial to what 312 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: degree had post mortem changes begin to take place in 313 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: Ellen's body? Was the temperature of her body when the 314 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: investigators first got there, was she and ryder mortis? Because 315 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: that takes a very specific amount of time to set in. 316 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: Did she have lybra morris where blood had settled? Remember 317 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: she was in a seated position, all right, So that 318 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: would indicate that if she had lybra mortis in her body, 319 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: that is the settling a blood where the skin actually 320 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: changes color because of congestion, depended congestion we call it, 321 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: it would have settled to the backs of her legs 322 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: and her buttocks would have been touching the floor, and 323 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: so you would it would be really, really purple, livacious 324 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: as they call it. So I'd be very interested to 325 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: know was there any lybra mortis on her shoulder blades 326 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: or on her lower back. That would indicate that at 327 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: some point in time she had been laying on her back. 328 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: So all of this is key, it just doesn't necessarily 329 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: marry up. So let's talk a little bit more about 330 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: the room itself. The door was locked, there was one 331 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: way in or out. Ellen did not live on the 332 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 1: ground floor, so there was a very small balcony, but 333 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: it was not like a balcony that you would go 334 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: out side and sit and you know, hang out with 335 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: friends and talk or have dinner. It's a very small balcony. 336 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: There's only one way in or out of this room, 337 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: and the door is locked. Jackie, that's a good point. 338 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: I've always imagined this, this uh, this apartment to look 339 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: somewhat like, uh, maybe an extended stay suite that you 340 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: would find out on the road in a hotel. And 341 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: the one thing it has in common is one of 342 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: these interior swing locks. I'm sure that many people that 343 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: are listening have had access to these. You know, it's 344 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 1: got the one little bar that's attached to the door itself, 345 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: and then it's got this kind of gate that swings 346 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: over that one little bar, and if you try to 347 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: open the door, even after the dead bolt is off 348 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 1: and it kind of swing that that little bar catches 349 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: on that handle on that swing and it prevents it 350 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: from opening any further that was physically in place, according 351 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: to the boyfriend, when he came to enter the apartment. 352 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, he reports getting rather upset. 353 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: Whether he's texting her, you know, he's saying, look, don't 354 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: you know, don't be playing around or whatever it was 355 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: that he had stated, let me in, let me in. 356 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on, And of course he 357 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: eventually had to force his way into the apartment. How 358 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: is this possible? Would the swing lock that this would 359 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: have been in place, he could not have gotten in. 360 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: And we've got a woman that is essentially seated in 361 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: the kitchen that has sustained twenty stab wounds. But to 362 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: my account, it would seem that it's not possible for 363 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,719 Speaker 1: her to have self inflicted these wounds. Jackie, I just 364 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: don't see how that's plausible. There's only one way into 365 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: this place. You've got a single entrance in an interior hallway. 366 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: I don't see anybody leaping off of that balcony down 367 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: out of this multi story building. I think that they'd 368 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: probably wind up breaking their ankles or breaking their leg 369 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 1: How is it possible that someone could have come and 370 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: gone without them being seen. Jackie. I don't know that 371 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: there's necessarily any clear answers in the case involving Ellen 372 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: Greenberg's death, but I can tell you this, I know 373 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: that there's somebody out there that does want one answers, 374 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: and that's her mom and dad, because for ten years 375 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: now they've been searching for someone to tell them definitively 376 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: what happened on that day that their daughter passed away. Joe, 377 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. The Greenbergs have been fighting for a 378 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: very long time now to get this ruling of suicide changed. 379 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: They have been to court, they have filed emotions, they 380 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: have done depositions, and we know that in those depositions 381 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: there were some things brought up that that really raises 382 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: questions about whether this finding is accurate. What were those, Joe? 383 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: The most significant thing, Jackie, is that, upon further reflection, 384 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: there was another pathologist who was working for the medical examiner, 385 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: the same medical Examiner's office that did Ellen's exam. Let's 386 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: just going to blow you away. Remember that injury that 387 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: we talked about that was involving the C one, C two, 388 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: and C three cervical spawn. Well, when this mythologist looked 389 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: at this, she saw something very interesting, the fact that 390 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: when this knife entered that area, that critical area that 391 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: literally dictates the quality of life that we're going to have. 392 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: During the course of a deposition, she revealed that it 393 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: was her opinion that this insult this injury that Ellen 394 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 1: sustained to the backg her neck, to their spinal column. 395 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: She stated that there was no hemorrhage. There was no 396 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in that specific area. And you have to factor 397 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: that with this. The head and the neck are arguably 398 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: the most vascular areas in our body, and what that 399 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: means is that there is more blood supply probably going 400 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: to that area of the human body because the brain 401 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: requires so much oxygen. So you're going to tell me 402 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: that you're going to insert a knife into this area 403 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: and there is no significant hemorrhage surrounding the spinal column. Well, 404 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: the thing that she came up with this other pathologist 405 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: that did this examination was that yeah, she got stabbed 406 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: in that area, but because there was no hemorrhage, she 407 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: doesn't believe that this happened in life. She thinks that 408 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: it was post mortem. That means that it occurred after death, because, 409 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: as we know, if you sustain a bump, a contusion, 410 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: a bruise. If you sustain a laceration, an incised wound 411 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: with an edged weapon, or a gunshot wound, and you're 412 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: alive at the time that you sustain those injuries to 413 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: your body, you're going to bleed. Ellen Greenberg, according to 414 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: this pathologist, didn't bleed in that specific area, and that 415 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: specific area is key to this Jackie. It's key because 416 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: in most people, that would be an area that would 417 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: be so affected by this type of injury that it 418 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: would shut you down. We had talked about already. That's 419 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 1: that's where the autonomic nervous system kind of roots out of. 420 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: It comes up out of that the base of the 421 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: spinal cord right there. It's critical to everything that we do, 422 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: so any the slightest little insult in that area, the 423 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: slightest little injury can be very impactful. And the fact 424 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: that there was no hemorrhage in there, according to this pathologist, 425 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: indicates that this injury may very well have occurred after 426 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: Ellen had passed away. So that leaves us with a 427 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 1: big question, doesn't it. How can a young woman who 428 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: has reportedly been stabbing herself over and over and over again, 429 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: according to the medical examiner. How can she sustain an 430 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 1: injury like this to her neck after she's deceased. How 431 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: is that even physically possible. I've been around a lot 432 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: of dead bodies in my life, and Jackie, over the 433 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: course of my career, thousands of them, and I have 434 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: never seen someone that is deceased to self inflict an injury. 435 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: So that that begs the question, how did this occur? 436 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: And by whose hand? And so that's that's the kind 437 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: of question that the family has asked, and that's the 438 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: kind of question that the family deserves an answer to. 439 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: But you know what's really sad about this, Jackie, is 440 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: the fact that this mythologist, she never filed a report. 441 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: Here the family is there asking for answers. I'd say 442 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: that this is a pretty big answer. This is a 443 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: big piece of information from an investigative standpoint that the 444 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: family should have known immediately. It took a deposition in 445 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: order to pull this dat out. So Joe I am 446 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: by no means, I'm not even a forensics beginner. I 447 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: don't even have to go that far because all I 448 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: have to look at, and I think most lay people 449 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: all they have to look at, is the fact that 450 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg had twenty stab wounds that were supposedly self inflicted. 451 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: And I'm standing here on the outside looking in, going 452 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: there is no way that you can stab yourself twenty 453 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,719 Speaker 1: times and it be considered a suicide. So explain it 454 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: to me, Joe, how this could have been ruled a 455 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: suicide to begin with? Let me correct jump something there 456 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: and Jackie, this this case was not originally ruled a suicide. 457 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: In the first iteration of this thing that the m 458 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: had come out and said that they thought that it 459 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: was a homicide. So what changed along the continuum here 460 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: to make them suddenly doing about face, say oh, well, 461 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: it's it's not a homicide. This is obviously a suicide. 462 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: Obviously a suicide. Okay, obviously no equivocation. This is a suicide, 463 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: a suicide involving twenty self inflicted stab wounds. That that's 464 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: obvious that this is a suicide. And you know, it 465 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: defies I think on many levels logic that this could 466 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: in fact be be a suicide because we're talking about 467 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: a young woman who has not expressed any kind of 468 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: what psychiatrists referred to as suicidal ideation. And yeah, I 469 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: know that people do on occasion take their lives and 470 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: they haven't sent up any signal. But in this particular case, 471 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: she seems as though that she was rather stable in 472 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: the world that she was existing in. And yeah, she 473 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: has suffered from anxiety, but she wasn't stark, raving mad 474 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: where she would take a where she would take a 475 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: steak knife and plunge it into her body twenty times. 476 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: It just it doesn't It doesn't balance. This equation doesn't 477 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: balance at the end. What's of striking about this case 478 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: is that not only was she in a lock apartment 479 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: and the boyfriend had to make his way through this 480 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: gate lock on the door, and that she had blood 481 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: streaming out of her ear that's consistent with her laying 482 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: on her back, and that she has taken a steak 483 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: knife and plunged it into her body twenty times, and 484 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: then to boot leaves the knife embedded in her own chest. 485 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: It gets it gets a bit more murky because you know, initially, 486 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: as as I've stated, the pathologist had actually originally ruled 487 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: this as in fact a homicide, but then they did 488 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: an about face and changed it to suicide. One other 489 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: odd thing is that out of all the people in 490 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: the world that the medical examiner could have referred this 491 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 1: case too. They referred this case for further examination by 492 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: one of the most renowned neuropathologist in American history, and 493 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: that's doctor Lucy Rourke, who's up in Philadelphia. The pathologist 494 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: claims that doctor Lucy Rourke actually examined ellen spinal cord. Well, 495 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: guess what. Doctor Rourke says that she never was involved 496 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: in this case, and this, of all cases, is one 497 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: that you would want to have a neuropathology consult on 498 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: because of the injury to the spinal cord. She says 499 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: she never saw the case. So that adds an another layer. 500 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: And I think that now we can begin to see 501 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: why the parents would be so suspicious about this case, 502 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: why they have so many questions that have remained after 503 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: a decade unanswered, or at least the answers that they've 504 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: been given are not satisfactory. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 505 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: this is Body Backs