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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg P and L Podcast. I'm Pim Fox.

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Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Abramowitz. Each day we

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Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

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Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

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Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg P L Podcast

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Speaker 1: on iTunes, SoundCloud and at Bloomberg dot com. Now, let's

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Speaker 1: turn our attention to what's going on in the world

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Speaker 1: of politics meeting reality and Lisa Brahmins, I think this

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating topic because when people talk about the

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Speaker 1: building of the wall and so on between the United

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Speaker 1: States and Mexico, and no one really takes that next step,

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Speaker 1: which says, all right, so what kinds of materials, what

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Speaker 1: kind of businesses? Billbrook does, he's the CEO of US

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Speaker 1: Concrete and he is here on the phone talking with

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Speaker 1: us and Bill, Uh, I want to get your take

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Speaker 1: first of all. And President Trump has talked a lot

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Speaker 1: about infrastructure spending. Do you have a sense, aside from

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Speaker 1: the wall, what is he prioritizing to get done? Mr

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Speaker 1: Lee said, Uh, he's prioritizing There's two main approaches. One

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Speaker 1: critical infrastructure to help in the movement of goods and

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Speaker 1: people UH from the places they work to the places

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Speaker 1: they live, from the places items are are manufactured to

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Speaker 1: the places they're consumed. And a list of fifty priority

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Speaker 1: projects was published earlier this this week from places around

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Speaker 1: the country. A lot of it was rail based, a

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Speaker 1: lot of it was bridge based, a lot of it

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Speaker 1: was highway based. But they were their projects that have

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Speaker 1: not been completed that could help aid in UH growing

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Speaker 1: our GDP. Actually speaking a little bit of detail, if

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Speaker 1: you don't mind, Bill, just in terms of how you

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Speaker 1: got into this business. He is in preparing for the interview,

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Speaker 1: I had to learn a little bit about the history

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Speaker 1: of of concrete and cement and composites and so on,

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Speaker 1: and maybe just explain a little of your projects and

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Speaker 1: and what expertise you have in this area. Well, sure,

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Speaker 1: and I'll keep it brief. My my father grew up

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Speaker 1: he was employed in the cement industry in the Lehigh

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Speaker 1: Valley of Pennsylvania, where cement was founded in the country.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up around cement plants. Most of my

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Speaker 1: former years went into the military within the Corps of Engineers.

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Speaker 1: Combat engineers worked on many construction projects. Left the military

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Speaker 1: after thirteen years and ended up in a company just

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Speaker 1: north of New York City in arrogates and asphalt and

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Speaker 1: supplied significant amount of the arrogates used in the concrete

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Speaker 1: and asphalt to build New York City in the in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties and early two thousand's and then moved

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Speaker 1: on into a role at the US Concrete UH in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven and took over the CEO role

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Speaker 1: at US Concrete and US Concrete UH where we operate

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Speaker 1: in California, Texas, New York City, Washington, d C, Northern

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. And we really concentrate on difficult to perform

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Speaker 1: and difficult specification in different difficult operating conditions, large infrastructure

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Speaker 1: and building projects. For instance, we provided the concrete on

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Speaker 1: the Oakland Bay Bridge, provided the concrete for the San

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Speaker 1: Francisco forty Niners Stateium in Santa Clara, the Freedom Tower

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Speaker 1: in New York, we're working on the Bay Own Bridge

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Speaker 1: right now. We're doing the reconstruction of Laguardi Airport. So

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Speaker 1: we do high, high volume, very difficult to perform and

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Speaker 1: produce concrete projects in the major metropolitan cities that I

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Speaker 1: just mentioned. Bill, There's been some discussion that there is

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Speaker 1: a labor shortage when it comes to some of the

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Speaker 1: more ambitious infrastructure plan. What has been your experience or

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Speaker 1: your expectation with respect to whether we have sufficient workers

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Speaker 1: in this country to carry out some of the plans. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll answer that in two ways. One, our primary workforce

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Speaker 1: consists of ready mixed truck drivers who have to have

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Speaker 1: a specialized license or commercial driver's license, and we do

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Speaker 1: have have to work at obtaining a sufficient number of

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Speaker 1: qualified drivers. The days are gone when you could just

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Speaker 1: hang a sign outside and say driver position available and

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Speaker 1: people would walk in your door already qualified. We do

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Speaker 1: have to do job fares and a lot of recruiting,

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Speaker 1: and we've had some inflationary pressures in our non union

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Speaker 1: uh labor rates as well in order to attract qualified drivers.

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Speaker 1: As far as um shortages in the construction trades I

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Speaker 1: hear about it, I imagine the construction trades face the

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Speaker 1: same thing I do with skilled workers in my ready

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Speaker 1: mixed truck drivers. But the reality of the situation is

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Speaker 1: where an historically low labor participation rate in the country

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Speaker 1: basically sixty one of the population, which means there's thirty

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Speaker 1: eight percent sitting at home some probably can't work. Uh,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of able bodied men and women

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Speaker 1: out there that we need to get back into the

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Speaker 1: workforce by providing high paying jobs to make it more

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Speaker 1: attractive for them to work than to actually subsist on

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Speaker 1: whatever means they're they're obtaining currently. Uh, Bill, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get your take on the wall the President Trump

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Speaker 1: has proposed building on the border of US and Mexico. Uh.

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Speaker 1: What is your sense of what this will actually end

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Speaker 1: up looking like. Will it be a physical concrete wall

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Speaker 1: running almost fift miles along the border, or will it

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Speaker 1: look like something else. Well, it definitely will be a

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Speaker 1: physical barrier, the Uh, materials that is going to be

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Speaker 1: built with are to be determined. And even if it

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Speaker 1: would be a fence, there's still a significant amount of

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Speaker 1: concrete needed for the footings and foundations and the roads

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Speaker 1: that lead up to it and along our side of

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Speaker 1: that fence, So that even under the scenario that would

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Speaker 1: be a steel wall, we'd have a lot of concrete necessary. Now,

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Speaker 1: depending on the specifications, it could be precast concrete panels

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Speaker 1: as are in other walls in certain parts of the world.

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Speaker 1: It could be poured in place concrete that we would

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Speaker 1: supply trucks and plants for. It is to be determined yet,

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Speaker 1: or it can be a combination of all the above,

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Speaker 1: depending on the topography of the terrain where that section

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Speaker 1: of the wall is being built. Bill Sandbrook, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Bill Sandbrook, CEO of US

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Speaker 1: Concrete in Texas. We've gotten news earlier today that President

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Speaker 1: Trump is willing to consider removing U S sanctions against Russia.

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Speaker 1: We've heard a lot about Russia. We want to talk

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Speaker 1: to somebody who has spent a lot of time there

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Speaker 1: and who has reported their extensively. H Bloomberg View columnist

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Speaker 1: Leonid Burschitski, who has been writing extensively about Vladimir Putin

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Speaker 1: and some of his consequences on the nation of Russia.

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Speaker 1: So first, I actually just want to start off by

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Speaker 1: getting your take on what the implications would be for

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Speaker 1: Russia if the US were to ease up on sanctions. Well,

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Speaker 1: first of all, I don't really believe that the US

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Speaker 1: or Trump um is going to drop the sanctions unilaterally,

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Speaker 1: because that would contradict he has declared approach to dealing

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Speaker 1: with Russia, which is negotiating, trying to make a deal

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Speaker 1: you don't throw away your biggest trump card if you

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Speaker 1: want to negotiate to deal. It doesn't really make sense

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Speaker 1: in terms of you know, bargaining technique. Um. But if

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Speaker 1: that were to happen, it would not really have any

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Speaker 1: particularly serious consequences for the Russian economy because the sanctions

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Speaker 1: at most, by the most pessimistic estimates, take about point

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Speaker 1: five of GDP a year ah, and that is not

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Speaker 1: really a huge hindrance to Russia economically. But if the

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Speaker 1: sanctions were dropped, it would certainly increase Putting's legitimacy um

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Speaker 1: and sort of and an attempt to isolate him as

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Speaker 1: an international player, which is something that is really much

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Speaker 1: more important to putting them under financial aspect. Why Why

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Speaker 1: because basically bring him into the fold and major negotiations

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Speaker 1: and sort of give him It would give him at

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Speaker 1: the table, It would give him the respect that he

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Speaker 1: sort of craves from the West. Uh. It would immediately

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Speaker 1: make him a power broker in the number of regions,

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Speaker 1: and it would certainly make it easier for him to

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Speaker 1: pursue his poses in Europe. Um. The you know, the

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Speaker 1: the US immediate periphery, the Balkans, Eastern Europe, um, it

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Speaker 1: would bring him back to the table as as as

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Speaker 1: a you know, serious player on par with the West.

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Speaker 1: You wrote a column about how President Trump is a

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Speaker 1: master of diversionary tactics. Can you explain, give us some color. Well,

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Speaker 1: what I meant was the you know, the Trump teams,

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Speaker 1: um a pension for throwing out all sorts of stupid

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Speaker 1: bits of news like, uh, the idea that he was

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Speaker 1: going to start and a big investigation into voter fraud

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Speaker 1: in the election, or the entire debate about how many

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Speaker 1: people attended the inacuration. You know, unimportant stories that everybody

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Speaker 1: is discussing, uh, and that get reposted and discussed on

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Speaker 1: the social networks much more than the more serious issues

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Speaker 1: like the Keystone pipeline, even the war that Trump is

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Speaker 1: clearly intent on financing as he promised during the campaign. Uh,

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Speaker 1: These serious issues get much less play on the social

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Speaker 1: networks and much less discussion than the non serious bits

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Speaker 1: of news that they throw out. And actually, I think

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Speaker 1: the rumor that they're gonna unilaterally canceled the Russia sanctions

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Speaker 1: is part of these diversionary tactics. As the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: actually starts serious work on implementing some of the wildest

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Speaker 1: election promises that Trump made during the campaign. Leon it

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Speaker 1: speak a little bit if you can, about the attitudes

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Speaker 1: or the experiences that you've had most recently in Germany,

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Speaker 1: if you don't mind only in the context of the

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Speaker 1: visit of UK Prime Minister Theresa May taking place today.

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Speaker 1: Uh Angela Merkel doesn't seem to be anywhere in this picture,

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Speaker 1: at least not yet. Well, she's definitely not on that

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Speaker 1: picture because you know, the USE stand, which aligns very

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Speaker 1: closely with Germany's stand in this case, UM is actually

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Speaker 1: rather punitive to the UK in terms of the you know,

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Speaker 1: the terms of exit and in terms of what the

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Speaker 1: UK is going to be allowed to keep from you know,

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Speaker 1: the free trade UM status that it enjoys within the U.

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Speaker 1: Uh if it doesn't allow you know, the basic EU freedoms,

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Speaker 1: including the freedom of movement. Uh So in Berlin, there's

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Speaker 1: really not much that you know that May is going

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Speaker 1: to get from mercle. Uh. With Trump, she can probably

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Speaker 1: make more headway because he doesn't care about the U.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't like bu uh he might even want to.

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Speaker 1: He was. He openly celebrated when Brexit was allowed and announced.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, um May can actually get something from him,

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Speaker 1: just as a token of how he feels about Europe,

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Speaker 1: about United Europe, about the u UM. You know that

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Speaker 1: this would be done to irk someone like Merkel. Well.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you very much. Leonid always insightful

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Speaker 1: joining us now. Leonid Burschitsky. He is our Bloomberg View

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Speaker 1: columnist in Berlin. I urge you to go to Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: View dot com and read his and many other Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: View columns. It's an interesting perspective on the world. I'm

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Speaker 1: pim Fox along with Lisa Abramowitz. This is Bloomberg. We've

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Speaker 1: heard a lot about President Trump and his worsening relationship

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Speaker 1: with the Mexican government. I want to bring in Eric Martin.

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Speaker 1: He's a Mexico government and economy reporter at Bloomberg. He

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Speaker 1: is in Mexico City, and Eric, I want to just

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Speaker 1: start with getting a sense from you. What is the

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Speaker 1: mood right now in Mexico Citylica's really amazing the Mexican

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Speaker 1: people and even rival politicians are supporting President and kapinion

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Speaker 1: at those decisions. You cancel his trip to Washington next week.

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Speaker 1: I had one analyst stating me that Donald Trump has

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Speaker 1: succeeded in doing what no politician has done for decades

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Speaker 1: in Mexico, which is really uniting all Mexicans in support

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Speaker 1: of a single cause and a lot of outrage at

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Speaker 1: the rhetoric that's being aimed at Mexico by the US,

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Speaker 1: at the escalation of UH, this standoff. What are they

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Speaker 1: united to do? What? What's sort of the objective of

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Speaker 1: the unity to stand up to the US. It's an

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Speaker 1: economy sixteen times larger than that of Mexico, but Mexico

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Speaker 1: is a country in which the politicians and the policy

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Speaker 1: makers have a lot of pride about the role that

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Speaker 1: Mexico plays in the world. UH. And we've seen also

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Speaker 1: firms like A Price Waterhouse that say Mexico will be

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Speaker 1: the sixth biggest economy in the world by twenty So

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Speaker 1: this is a country that sees itself as ascendant, is

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Speaker 1: on the horizon, is becoming increasingly more important and deserving

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Speaker 1: of respect on the world stage. Eric, can you put

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Speaker 1: this into the context of Mexican history. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know it's you know, I don't want to do a

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Speaker 1: history class all the way back to eighteen twenty. But

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Speaker 1: having said that, you know, large parts of the United

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Speaker 1: States were at that time part of Mexico. Is the

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Speaker 1: Mexican perspective aware and and vocal about that that element

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Speaker 1: of the intertwined history of the two countries. Absolutely. I

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Speaker 1: mean you have to look back decades, potentially to the

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Speaker 1: administration of Talvin Coolidge to find a US administration has

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Speaker 1: been so hostile to Mexico. Calvin Coolidge calling Mexico in

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Speaker 1: those days Soviet Mexico if you can imagine, and an

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Speaker 1: oil exploration in the late nineteen thirties. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: the last time that things have been this bad between

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Speaker 1: these two countries. They have cool operated so well on

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Speaker 1: a number of issues, ranging from immigration and homeland security,

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Speaker 1: you know, counter terrorism efforts, to the environment in recent

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Speaker 1: years and anti drug effort. It's just really astounding that, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, in four working days in office, uh, Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump has brought this relationship to the level where it

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Speaker 1: currently sits. Well, and let's just talk about the relationship

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Speaker 1: and where it currently sits. I mean, we've heard a

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Speaker 1: lot of pretty inflammatory rhetoric, and yet there is talk

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Speaker 1: from some ambassadors and UH and others that perhaps there

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Speaker 1: still is room to make some negotiation. This is not

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Speaker 1: heading toward a full blown trade ward. Just yet, how

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Speaker 1: serious is it? Well, the Mexican government last night and

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Speaker 1: four Minister Louis Videgora in Washington expressed optimism that they

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Speaker 1: can still reach a very good deal and very good

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Speaker 1: agreements for both Mexico and the US. Donald Trump has

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Speaker 1: previously spoken highly of Videgaray, praising him as a wonderful

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Speaker 1: man than someone which whom the US can make wonderful deals.

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Speaker 1: But this is certainly not the first step in the

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Speaker 1: start that either of these two sides probably would have

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Speaker 1: envisioned when they arranged this ill fated presidential visit next week,

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Speaker 1: which now will not take place. And you know they're

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Speaker 1: going to continue working. No one's caught off the dialogue,

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Speaker 1: but certainly a very disappointing start to these talks. Eric.

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Speaker 1: Our business executives making plans not only for their businesses

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Speaker 1: but themselves in terms of financial arrangements and future projects. Well,

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Speaker 1: certainly the business chambers are very focused on this and

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Speaker 1: on getting their allies in the business community in the

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Speaker 1: US to lobby on Capitol Hill into lobby the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration to continue NAFTA, to not impose tariffs, to not

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Speaker 1: tear apart this relationship that's grown over more than two decades.

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Speaker 1: Carlos Slim is going to be addressed in the press

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Speaker 1: later today in Mexico City, and I'm sure that he

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Speaker 1: will be asked about this. Reporters are asking questions, and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's certainly something that the business community here

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Speaker 1: is very concerned. Business can be really on both sides

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Speaker 1: of the border about interruption of supply chains Virgin Mexico

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Speaker 1: and trade negotiators to diversify tradelines to other countries, the

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Speaker 1: TPP partners, for instance. But it's something you can't do overnight.

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Speaker 1: And this is a relationship that's grown up, very focused

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Speaker 1: around the US. More than eight percent of Mexican exports

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Speaker 1: got into the US. Well, thank you very much, Eric Martin,

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Speaker 1: our Mexican Government and Economy reporter joining us from Mexico City. Now,

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Speaker 1: I just imagine this one big company that would include

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Speaker 1: Charter Communications, verizing Communications, Actillian Johnson and Johnson, Luxotica and

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Speaker 1: are I guess there you have somebody where sunglasses, perhaps

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Speaker 1: doing an ad for a cable network, uh and perhaps

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Speaker 1: getting a band aid from Johnson and Johnson. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: mergers and acquisitions and here to help us is Nancy

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Speaker 1: Haven's Hasty President, chief investment officer of Haven's Advisors. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being here. Um did I mangle all

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Speaker 1: that correctly? Did I put that all into us? Do

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Speaker 1: you put all the pairs together appropriately? All right? So

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Speaker 1: tell us your give us your a little bit of

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Speaker 1: your background so that people understand your perspective and mergers

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Speaker 1: and acquisitions. Describe what was like, and tell us what

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Speaker 1: you believe this current environment is like. Okay. Um, I

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Speaker 1: have been in engaged in merger arbitrage for uh thirty

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Speaker 1: some years, and um, I find it incredibly fascinating and fun.

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Speaker 1: Um I think two th sixteen was extremely interesting. Um

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Speaker 1: it was. Can I just break in Haven's Advisors bear Stearns,

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Speaker 1: just getting people, the professionals, so that we know where

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Speaker 1: we're standing. Sorry. I spent fifteen years at bear Stearns,

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Speaker 1: and I started my own hedge fund twenty years ago

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Speaker 1: called Haven's Advisors. UM at any rate? In two thousand

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Speaker 1: and sixteen, UM, every by almost every measure, EM and

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Speaker 1: A was down. Global m and A was down. Sev

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Speaker 1: large deals that had a value in excess of a

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Speaker 1: billion dollars were down. Nine North American deals were down.

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Speaker 1: Cross border deals which fared the best were down three. However,

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Speaker 1: Chinese deals, those in which China Chinese company wasn't acquirer

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Speaker 1: more than double. They were two to two point two

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Speaker 1: times what they had been in two thousand and fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and it was by far the highest level that we

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Speaker 1: had ever seen for Chinese acquirers. Nancy and I want

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Speaker 1: to feedback on that is their concern among M and

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Speaker 1: A professionals you speak to that the current administration stands

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Speaker 1: towards China will dampen prospects for these types of cross

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Speaker 1: border deals in the year or two ahead. Um, there

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Speaker 1: is always more concern fundamentally, regardless of administration about Chinese deals.

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Speaker 1: The information out of China on Chinese companies is much

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Speaker 1: more opaque, so it makes it more difficult in general

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Speaker 1: to invest in deals that involve a Chinese company. On

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Speaker 1: top of that, now, as you point out, we have

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Speaker 1: a new administration and Trump. Trump has made it more

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Speaker 1: than clear how he feels about Chinese acquirers, Chinese almost anything,

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Speaker 1: and as a result, UM, he we are all worried

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Speaker 1: about what he will do or will impose. Um, he

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Speaker 1: does have limitations, he has to follow the law. Companies

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Speaker 1: that are not being treated fairly can go back and

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Speaker 1: back to court or go to court if they are sued,

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Speaker 1: and and they can make the transaction happen anyway, because

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Speaker 1: unless laws are passed, which has not happened yet and

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Speaker 1: could and takes an enormously long time. UM, we we

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Speaker 1: won't have any framework that if in fact, totally prevents

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Speaker 1: Chinese companies from doing business in this country. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to pull you down into the weeds just a little bit, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: because I'm wondering if there are any of these combinations

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Speaker 1: you'd like to potentially talk about in terms of investments.

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Speaker 1: So I mentioned Charter Communications in Verizon, Actilian and Johnson

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Speaker 1: and Johnson, the Luxotica and are deal. That means, you know,

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Speaker 1: French and Italian interest coming together. What what what were

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Speaker 1: you looking at right now? Well, Um, we're looking at

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Speaker 1: all of them. UM. With respect to UM the Charter deal, UM,

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Speaker 1: that is in a potential potentially that is an extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: preliminary stage, if it's in any stage at all. UM.

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Speaker 1: There it's clear that they have had some sort of

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Speaker 1: discussions over the last six months. But it's also clear

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Speaker 1: that or one news source came out this morning that

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Speaker 1: said there was nothing going on right now, and the

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Speaker 1: stock is down as a result. Today. We don't tend

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Speaker 1: to invest in any pre deal pretty much ever, because

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Speaker 1: they're very, very risky and UM. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: Charter is a highly levered company that just did a

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Speaker 1: big deal with Time Warner. It has major overlap with Verizon.

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Speaker 1: Neither company has low leverage UM. I think generally analysts

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Speaker 1: are not excited about the transaction. Analysts Verizon analysts that

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Speaker 1: is UM. They do admit that it will give the

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Speaker 1: companies into additional growth, but they don't They do believe

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Speaker 1: there are big challenges, and especially since Verizon has always

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Speaker 1: had a strategy of rolling out five G and they're

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Speaker 1: not sure they want investment going into Charter right now.

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Speaker 1: When I talk with private equity UH executives or people

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Speaker 1: in the industry, one concern about M and A volumes

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Speaker 1: this year, it's just how high valuations are. There aren't

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Speaker 1: as many attractive targets given where stocks are. How much

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Speaker 1: do you think is away on the total volume of

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Speaker 1: eminate is here? Well, I actually am very optimistic about

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Speaker 1: volume for this year. First of all, we have we

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Speaker 1: it looks like we will have a much much better

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Speaker 1: regulatory environment UM. Trump's initial appointees for the FCC chair

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Speaker 1: and UM for the Attorney General. That's Mr pie right,

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Speaker 1: so we would by the way pointed, he's on the

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Speaker 1: FCC currently, so he will be able to assume the

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Speaker 1: chairman's role without any immediately exactly. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: we'd also love him to come on the program anytime.

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Speaker 1: So well, he is he is clearly a very pro

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Speaker 1: business bent UM and he's been vocal in his opposition

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Speaker 1: to net neutrality UM. And also Jeff Sessions made some

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Speaker 1: real comments in his hearings about Attorney General Attorney General

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Speaker 1: how h M and A should be handled from a

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Speaker 1: regulatory standpoint, and he was a fairly strict UM statutory person,

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Speaker 1: which is good news because it means that we'll be

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Speaker 1: using traditional measures for anti trust. But it's also clear

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Speaker 1: that in general the Trump administration is very uh on

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Speaker 1: pro regulation, so that will make it very good. We're

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Speaker 1: going to have to leave it there, unfortunately. I can

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Speaker 1: talk to you all afternoon. Nancy Haven's Hasty, President and

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Speaker 1: Chief Investment Officer of Haven's Advisers on the outlook for

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Speaker 1: merchants and acquisitions. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening

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Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg P and L podcast. You can subscribe

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Speaker 1: and listen to interviews at iTunes, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast

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Speaker 1: platform you prefer. I'm Pim Fox. I'm out there on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at pim Fox. I'm out there on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: Lisa Abramo. It's one before the podcast. You can always

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Speaker 1: catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio