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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?

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Speaker 1: From house Stop Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen. I'm Molly Today. Our question, Molly

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Speaker 1: comes from a movie that a lot of people have seen,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of wanted to not have to talk

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Speaker 1: about this movie because this movie comes up and almost

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Speaker 1: every article that we ran across when we were researching

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Speaker 1: this specific question, which is ken men and women really

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Speaker 1: be friends? And by now all of our wise listeners

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Speaker 1: probably know that I'm talking about the movie when Harry

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Speaker 1: met Sally starring Billy Crystal and Meg Ry and my

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Speaker 1: two favorite actors in Hollywood. Right, they're such your favorite thing,

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Speaker 1: you didn't even want to talk about the movie they

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Speaker 1: made together, right or else? Then? I just want to

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Speaker 1: do a podcast. Has thought how great Billy Crystal is?

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Speaker 1: He is a zany, fun guy. Kristen totally underrated. For

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Speaker 1: getting me off track, I'm trying to roundtrack. I'm intentionally

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Speaker 1: trying to distract you for some reason because you don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk about this question and it's impact in

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Speaker 1: the movie. Right, I mean, the whole movie revolves around

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Speaker 1: these two friends, Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan Harry Sally.

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Speaker 1: Harry and Sally. First, I was gonna say, I don't

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Speaker 1: remember their names in the movie. Um it's a little

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Speaker 1: early in the morning here in Atlanta. Uh, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just revolves around Harry and Sally's friendship that eventually

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Speaker 1: evolves into a romance. Spoiler alert, well a little late

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Speaker 1: for spoiler alert came out in the nineteenaightes, I think

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Speaker 1: we're safe. Well, you know, some people, some younger listeners,

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Speaker 1: might not have seen it. But early in the movie,

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Speaker 1: Harry says that men and women can never be friends

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Speaker 1: because at one point someone one or the other will

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Speaker 1: want to take it romantic. They'll want to have sex.

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Speaker 1: They will want to have sex. I was trying to

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Speaker 1: be a little more euphemistic about it, Molly. No, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think I don't even think Billy Crystal would want

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Speaker 1: the romance. He just said, at one point, they're going

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Speaker 1: to have sex. They're going to have sex. Their hormones

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Speaker 1: will get the better of them. It's impossible to avoid.

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Speaker 1: And thus men and women cannot be friends. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if you believe the outcome of the movie, they can't

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Speaker 1: because they end up married and in love. And you know,

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Speaker 1: Kristen's given this a spoiler alert, but the two do

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Speaker 1: get together and they get married in their in love

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Speaker 1: and I think that this movie may have ruined, you know,

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Speaker 1: a generation of people who might have had a crushed

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Speaker 1: on one of their male friends, was like, eventually, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna be like when Harry met Sally, He's gonna be

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Speaker 1: my Harry. Eventually, it's all gonna work out. It's okay

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Speaker 1: that I'm single now because I got my Harry. But

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Speaker 1: I think that really does a disservice to the men

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Speaker 1: and women who can be friends without sex entering the picture.

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Speaker 1: And so we're going to talk today about the possibilities,

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Speaker 1: the struggles, the benefits, all the great things that come

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Speaker 1: from as the researchers call them, cross ex friendships, cross

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Speaker 1: sex friendships. Yes, and I'm gonna stay right now Molly

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Speaker 1: and answered this question. I would like to hope. But yes, indeed,

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Speaker 1: men and women can be friends, because what's wrong with that?

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean, guy friends are great. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think that, you know, they can bring something different to

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Speaker 1: a friendship than maybe your female friends can. I think

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Speaker 1: you can get something from every friendship, regardless of the

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Speaker 1: gender of the person who is your friend. Every friendship

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Speaker 1: is different. It's like a snowflake. Um. But a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have done writing on the fact that when

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Speaker 1: two females get together and talk, they're talking about their

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Speaker 1: emotions and their boy troubles and it's just on and on,

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Speaker 1: and it's repetitive. It's you know, you're always going over

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Speaker 1: all your drama, whereas if you're hanging out with a

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Speaker 1: guy friend, you're more likely to be you know, watching

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Speaker 1: a movie, looking up crazy things online, or if you're talking,

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Speaker 1: it might just be about more general subjects like sports

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Speaker 1: or TV programs you both like, or funny jokes. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there is some gossip. I think that definitely goes on

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Speaker 1: Franks gossip, and of course you will discuss what's going

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Speaker 1: on in your life, so relationships might be a part

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Speaker 1: of that. UM. And we want to go ahead and

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Speaker 1: say that, you know, as one of our one of

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Speaker 1: our Facebook fans pointed out, this is a very head

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Speaker 1: oronormative question. Yeah, you know, it's a question of males

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Speaker 1: and females um and whether sex will enter into it.

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Speaker 1: And of course no one really stops to think about whether, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, to homosexuals could be friends without sex centering

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Speaker 1: into it. It's just society is baffled by the fact

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Speaker 1: that a man and a woman can be in the

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Speaker 1: same room and not take each other's clothes off right,

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Speaker 1: And I think that for today's generation, for our generation, Molly,

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Speaker 1: it might not be this question might not be so

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Speaker 1: baffling as it used to be because today it's way

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Speaker 1: more culturally accepted for a single guy and a single girl,

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Speaker 1: or married or in relationships what have you, to hang

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Speaker 1: out in a friendly way. There doesn't have to be

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Speaker 1: some kind of subtext. Because back in the day, the

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Speaker 1: workplace was almost completely segregated. Men would go out to work,

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Speaker 1: women would stay in the home, and the only times

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Speaker 1: that the two would really interact was, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: if a man would come to court a woman or

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Speaker 1: you know, if they were married. There was really the

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Speaker 1: two spheres were pretty separate. But now work places are

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Speaker 1: far less gender segregated than they used to be. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have just thinking of random things. We have, you know,

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Speaker 1: intramural teams that we might play on. We have trivia

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Speaker 1: leagues that we go out and play on. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's just it's a lot more common for guys and

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Speaker 1: girls to hang out together period. But you know, it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because some of the articles were reading show how, uh,

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Speaker 1: your friendships kind of develop over life, and they've done

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Speaker 1: a lot of observational studies on toddlers and you know,

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Speaker 1: little kids on a playground, they tend to to stick

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Speaker 1: with their own kind. The girls will all go off

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Speaker 1: and play together, the boys will all go off and

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Speaker 1: play together, and it's not really until puberty hits that

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Speaker 1: the two meet, because a you've got all those hormones

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Speaker 1: and you want to see what other sex is all about,

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Speaker 1: and you probably are starting to, you know, want a

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Speaker 1: date a few of them. But it's also just a

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Speaker 1: time you're in middle school. You're not all just playing

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Speaker 1: on the playground. You know, there's activities, there's all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's just more mingling. And this is really when a

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Speaker 1: lot of cross sex friendships start. Yeah, and then once

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Speaker 1: you kind of move into adult life, a lot of

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Speaker 1: times studies will show that those cross sex friendships will

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Speaker 1: start to dissolve a little bit um once people start

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Speaker 1: really pairing off, getting married, having children. Because I think

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Speaker 1: it is still kind of taboo for a married person

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Speaker 1: to have cross sex friendships. I know, kind of a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago. It's sort of an old, um

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Speaker 1: old trend now, but there was, uh, there were all

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Speaker 1: these stories in the news about these trend stories about

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Speaker 1: you know, the office boyfriend, the office girlfriend or husband

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Speaker 1: or wife, whatever it may be. Because nowadays, we tend

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Speaker 1: to spend more time with people in our office than

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Speaker 1: quality time with our significant others. And that idea and

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Speaker 1: all of these stories and the media's were created, this

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Speaker 1: idea of the cross sex friend, especially adult friend, as

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Speaker 1: a threat to your relationship. That's right, and I was um.

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Speaker 1: One of our sources was CBS early show piece that

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Speaker 1: was an interview with the editor of Cosmopolitan magazine, uh,

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Speaker 1: favorite of many young women out there. And what started

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Speaker 1: out is this piece about whether platonic friendship could exist

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Speaker 1: totally took a one eight in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: story and was all about how as a spouse you

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Speaker 1: could protect your husband from this predator friend he must have, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, all these things you have to tell him

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Speaker 1: not to talk about with with his friend, and all

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Speaker 1: the ways to make sure he's not having an affair.

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Speaker 1: And it all just goes back to this idea that

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Speaker 1: you know, as soon as a male and a female

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Speaker 1: or friend sort thinking about having sex with each other. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because she she toss us out a statistic that supposedly

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Speaker 1: of women under a underestimate how often men are attracted

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Speaker 1: to them. This applies to male friends, not just a

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Speaker 1: guy that you pass on the street. And she's saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, they don't have to be necessarily a guy's

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Speaker 1: physical type, like men basically want to have sex with everyone,

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Speaker 1: So women watch out. You know, if he's talking about

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Speaker 1: some cool girl in the office, you better, you better

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Speaker 1: put your guard up and find out what's going on.

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Speaker 1: It was very alarmous, and I think that this came

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Speaker 1: out around the time that we had all these stories,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of obnoxious stories about the office boyfriend, girlfriend,

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Speaker 1: what have you. Um. But emotional infidelity is a really

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Speaker 1: big threat to some people. But it's just the question

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Speaker 1: of can a spouse not have any friends at all?

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Speaker 1: Like it's just it's to me, it's so mind boggling

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Speaker 1: that you couldn't except that someone could have a connection

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Speaker 1: with another person that's not sexual and not a threat

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Speaker 1: to your relationship. Well, in this this early show piece

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Speaker 1: that we're talking king about was also completely one sided

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Speaker 1: because she basically elaborated on how women need to be

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Speaker 1: aware that their husband might be emotionally cheating on them

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Speaker 1: with a woman in the office, but not to point

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Speaker 1: out that, hey, these women might be in the office

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Speaker 1: and have guy friends too, or outside the office. I mean,

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Speaker 1: all of our you know, cross sex friendships, of course,

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Speaker 1: don't have to revolve around our work. And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the tack that men's health the I would say,

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Speaker 1: sort of the brother publication to Cosmo are two illustrious sources.

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Speaker 1: Um that we're starting off with here. Um, they kind

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Speaker 1: of took a broader approach talking about how women can

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Speaker 1: do the same thing. You know, it can be a

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Speaker 1: testy line. Um, yeah, like a guy doesn't want some

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Speaker 1: other guy knowing how things went in the bedroom, how

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Speaker 1: much money he makes. I mean, it was more like

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Speaker 1: the mail in the situation is going to see this

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Speaker 1: other male as a potential threat as well, but not

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Speaker 1: necessarily in a sexual way, just as just you know,

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Speaker 1: in a general male competition and way. So I think

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Speaker 1: starting with these two very sort of stereotypical sources shows

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Speaker 1: you how the conversation is framed and if you've ever

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Speaker 1: you know, had a really close cross sex friend and

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Speaker 1: had you know, a girlfriend, come up an elbow U

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Speaker 1: and be like, oh man, you guys are guys are

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Speaker 1: in love, aren't you? Then? You know, do you understand

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Speaker 1: that the main thing you're always going to come up

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Speaker 1: against in these types of relationships is the sex? So

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Speaker 1: let's just talk about the sex. So I think this

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Speaker 1: might be a good time to chat about a column

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Speaker 1: that we read on Salon by Mary Elizabeth Williams where

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Speaker 1: she is extolling the virtues of having guy friends, and

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Speaker 1: she makes a lot of great points about how kind

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Speaker 1: of guy friends can fill in certain gaps that girlfriends can't.

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Speaker 1: You know, they can sort of have your back in

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Speaker 1: a different way that women can. They can take your

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Speaker 1: mind off of things a little bit better than maybe

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Speaker 1: your girlfriends can, because you might not be as prone

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Speaker 1: to rehash all the gory details about whatever crisis is

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Speaker 1: going on. And she, you know, she makes this point

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Speaker 1: for instance, this, and here's a quote she says, some

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Speaker 1: of the deepest, sweetest, most enduring friendships of my life

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Speaker 1: have been with males. Then I went to college with me,

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Speaker 1: I've toiled and crappy jobs with men who stuck around

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Speaker 1: long after I lost touch with the ex girlfriends who

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Speaker 1: introduced us Guys who bartend, guys who play in bands,

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Speaker 1: Guys with black belts, guys who make stuff with metal

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Speaker 1: and soldering irons, awesome fracking dudes. And that's a lot

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Speaker 1: of great. She's got a lot of guy friends, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and she's right, you know, sometimes girl friends can

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Speaker 1: fade away, and uh, and you have these awesome platonic

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Speaker 1: guys who can stick by your socks, but they can

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Speaker 1: need Yeah, they can kick somebody's. But but then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, Mary Elizabeth takes us for a quick

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Speaker 1: U turn and says, I mean, of course sex happens

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Speaker 1: with all of these bartenders and black belts and men

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Speaker 1: in bands. But if you're you know, let's be adult

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Speaker 1: about this, you can salvage your relationship and keep the

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Speaker 1: friendship going. Yeah, she makes it sound like sex is

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Speaker 1: an inevitable like rest stop on the way to friendship.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, let's be honest. Yes, sex

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Speaker 1: between guy and girlfriends, cross sex friends, sex between cross

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Speaker 1: sex friends can cannon does happen, um, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think it always happens. And let me talk from experience,

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Speaker 1: supposed speak from experience. It does not always happen, doesn't

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Speaker 1: always happen, and it doesn't have to and I think

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Speaker 1: that you should be aware of that. While yes, it

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Speaker 1: would be wonderful if we could stay with total confidence

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Speaker 1: that we can go out and have sex with our

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Speaker 1: best guy friend and wake up the next morning, high five,

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Speaker 1: leave and then you know, meet up for a beer

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Speaker 1: later and it's totally fine. Molly, that's not the case,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, unless I'm living in some like

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Speaker 1: weird dreamland. I you know, I think that that's sort

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Speaker 1: of the best case scenario that Mary Elizabeth Williams is

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Speaker 1: living out. But let's get away from just anecdotal evidence,

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Speaker 1: because it's not the certily a bad thing that you know,

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Speaker 1: men and women have sex sometimes. But I think that

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Speaker 1: it does more power to marry Lizabeth Williams. Absolutely, but

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Speaker 1: I think it does add a different dimension to the relationship.

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Speaker 1: And I don't like perpetuating this idea that it's once

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Speaker 1: again going back to that notion that you're talking about, Molly,

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Speaker 1: that's so frustrating that you know, a heater sexual man

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Speaker 1: and woman walk into a room and if they sit

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Speaker 1: down and have a conversation together. Of course, it's got

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Speaker 1: to be leading to one place, and that is the bedroom.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how many men have you talked to you

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Speaker 1: that you haven't slept with a lot. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: just a joke, Kristen. But I do think that Mary

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Speaker 1: Liz with Williams has a good point and that it's

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Speaker 1: a big world. You've got to be friends with a

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Speaker 1: lot of people. It's best if you don't close yourself

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Speaker 1: off from people who can give you potentially wonderful relationships.

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Speaker 1: But you know, so far we've gone with um, the

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Speaker 1: Cosmo anecdotes, the Men's Health anecdotes, Salon, and a lot

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Speaker 1: anecdotes are anecdotes. I'm ready. I'm ready for some statistics. Yes,

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Speaker 1: me too. Let's get some science behind this if we can.

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Speaker 1: So we're heading over to an our call on Psychology Today,

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Speaker 1: and Psychology Today actually just had reams of information on this.

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Speaker 1: The writer has had a lot, a lot of opinions

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Speaker 1: about whether or not men and women can be friends.

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Speaker 1: So we came across one article on Psychology Today that

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Speaker 1: really lays out from an expert point of view, this

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Speaker 1: the truths and the myths and the consequences of cross

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Speaker 1: sex friendships. And since we've been talking a lot about

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Speaker 1: this sex factor, because I think that's really what what

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Speaker 1: it all boils down to, is whether or not um

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Speaker 1: sex will ruin the whole thing. So Kathy Working is

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Speaker 1: from Eastern Kentucky University and she wrote the book We're

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Speaker 1: Just Good Friends. It explores this whole concept and one

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Speaker 1: of the truths that she points out, and the Psychology

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Speaker 1: Today article is that quote it's not all about sex,

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Speaker 1: and she says, in reality, sex isn't always on the agenda.

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Speaker 1: That could be due to sexual orientation, lack of physical attraction,

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Speaker 1: or involvement in another romantic relationship. And even she points

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Speaker 1: out that even if friends are attracted to each other,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's all a matter of choice as to

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Speaker 1: whether or not you take that relationship to the next level.

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Speaker 1: And she says, even after years of considering someone as

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Speaker 1: a friend, it often becomes difficult to see across sex

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Speaker 1: pal as a romantic possibility. And I say, i'd I'd

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Speaker 1: agree with Working. And the Psychology Day article points out,

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Speaker 1: you know that that this sex thing is largely societal,

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Speaker 1: that we don't have really good role models of how

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Speaker 1: a man and a woman can interact in a friendship

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Speaker 1: that isn't sexual because what we see our heteronormative ideals

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Speaker 1: of menoum the game together in romantic comedies over and

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Speaker 1: over and over again. Well, and sociologists have pointed out that,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a holdover from what I was

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Speaker 1: talking about earlier, where uh, with traditional gender roles, with

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Speaker 1: the you know, men out and men out in the

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Speaker 1: workplace and the women at home, they're just really hasn't

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Speaker 1: been opportunity, like non romantic opportunities for men and women

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Speaker 1: to be just hanging out together as pals. It just

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like, you know, some thing that people do,

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Speaker 1: So why go to all this trouble psychology A date

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Speaker 1: address us out a little bit with a few of

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Speaker 1: the benefits of across sex friendship. And it's gonna sound

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Speaker 1: really silly when I say, because it's so obvious, but

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Speaker 1: it's just, you know, men and women actually have to

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Speaker 1: learn about each other to get along in society and

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Speaker 1: culture and the workplace. And you know, if a guy

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Speaker 1: has a gal pal, he will you know this again,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna sound so silly, but he'll think, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: okay to promote women because so and so it is

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Speaker 1: really smart she's my friend. I mean, they are saying

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Speaker 1: that by putting ourselves into this voluntary gender segregation that

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Speaker 1: we do, and that you know, guys are all on

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Speaker 1: one side the gym and the girls are all on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the gym. If they never cross

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Speaker 1: over and talk to each other, then we'll never know

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Speaker 1: what the other side is like. Yeah, this, uh, this

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Speaker 1: is a good segue to this study the you and

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Speaker 1: I found in the European Sociological Review about sex, sex

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Speaker 1: segregation and friendship networks, and the author points out that

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Speaker 1: the absence of cross sex friends may foster in group

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Speaker 1: feelings and help create gender stereotypes and traditional sexual attitudes.

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Speaker 1: Because you went back and looked at sort of predictors

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Speaker 1: for people who do have more cross sex friendships, and

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Speaker 1: it all has to do with attitudes and exposure. For instance,

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Speaker 1: people who have opposite sex siblings are far more likely

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Speaker 1: to make opposite sex friends as well. UM. Women and

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Speaker 1: who are in the workplace just because they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: around men more often, Um, I have a tendency to

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Speaker 1: have more male friendships. Um. And this on the flip

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Speaker 1: side of that, people who tend to have hold more

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Speaker 1: traditional attitudes about different the genders and gender stereotypes and

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Speaker 1: things like that, are less likely to have cross sex friendships.

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Speaker 1: They usually stick you know, with their guy friends or

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Speaker 1: with their girl friends, whatever the case may be. And

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Speaker 1: so researchers do worry that if you, if you do

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Speaker 1: have a cross that friendship with one of these people

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Speaker 1: who doesn't have these very um liberal ideas about gender roles,

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Speaker 1: then you might take a traditional gender role within the relationship,

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Speaker 1: almost being sort of like the submissive friend. Um. It's

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Speaker 1: not an equal footing. And when we tend to think

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Speaker 1: of friendships, its places where you can be equally an

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Speaker 1: equal exchange of ideas. Um. So it's just something to

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Speaker 1: be aware of. Well. And we also like to think

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Speaker 1: of friendships as being mutually beneficial, you know, like think

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Speaker 1: of your best friend like they're the person that you

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Speaker 1: can call when you're in a crisis and be there

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Speaker 1: for you. And on the flip side of that, you

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Speaker 1: give it back to them in return by answering the

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Speaker 1: phone at three am when when they're having a crisis. Um,

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Speaker 1: just for an example. But um. One thing that these

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Speaker 1: these studies on cross sex friendships has found is that

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Speaker 1: there is a different type of benefit that men and

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Speaker 1: women get from cross sex friendships. And it sounds a

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Speaker 1: little reductionist when when you say it out loud, but

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Speaker 1: I think if we are very honest with ourselves in

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Speaker 1: thinking about our friendships, UM, there is a point to it.

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Speaker 1: And this is going back to that study in the

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Speaker 1: European Sociological Review and um he points out that UM,

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Speaker 1: women report that opposite sex friendships provide less intimacy, less acceptance,

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Speaker 1: less nurturance, and less emotional support than same sex friendships. However,

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Speaker 1: men report that opposite sex friendships i e. Friendships with

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Speaker 1: women provide the same amount of intimacy, even somewhat more

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Speaker 1: intimacy and emotional support than same sex friends. Therefore, he

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Speaker 1: says that both men and women rely more on women

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Speaker 1: for the fulfillment of their emotional needs via friendships. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've heard of the universal blood type. Apparently women are

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Speaker 1: the universal friend But at the same time, I don't

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Speaker 1: think that that says that, you know, women are more

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Speaker 1: women's friendships are more important, you know, because I think

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Speaker 1: that it is just as valuable even if we might

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Speaker 1: not be feeling some kind of uh deep emotional intimacy

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Speaker 1: from hanging out and having some beers with our our

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Speaker 1: guy bff. Um, I think that there's still so much

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Speaker 1: value to that and why, Like I said at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the podcast, I really hope that the answer

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Speaker 1: to this question of whether men and women can be

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Speaker 1: friends is yes, because we need each other, you know.

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Speaker 1: And also, mollly, I think this is a good point

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Speaker 1: time to point out that throughout this whole conversation we've

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Speaker 1: been operating under the assumption that these are heterosexual guys

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Speaker 1: and girls. We haven't even touched on the you know,

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Speaker 1: gay man, straight man, straight girl, gay guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of the different um combinations now because like you said,

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Speaker 1: one of our Facebook fans said, hey, guys, isn't this

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Speaker 1: an insanely heteronormative question to ask? And I mean, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is the outside if we're just talking about the

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Speaker 1: factor of whether or not sex will come into play.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that no matter what, like cross

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Speaker 1: sex friendships just gender wise not sexual orientation. UM, it's

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Speaker 1: still is a valuable question to ask because I think

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Speaker 1: that when you have cross sex friendships, they are different

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Speaker 1: from same sex friendships. So now real briefly, christ and

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Speaker 1: you just mentioned this combination let's talk about a common

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Speaker 1: cross sex friendship, especially if you watch a lot of

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Speaker 1: television movies, because this kind of relationship is all over them.

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Speaker 1: The straight woman with the gay guy, the quote unquote

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Speaker 1: gay boyfriend, the gay boyfriend, the will to your grace, Yes,

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Speaker 1: the Stanford to your Carrie. I wanted to do three

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Speaker 1: of them, but I blanked. So, so you know this

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Speaker 1: this caricature, it's a it's a you know, a lady

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Speaker 1: about town. She usually loves shopping and eating. She's fun,

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Speaker 1: she's witty, she usually doesn't have a boyfriend because she's

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Speaker 1: so zany and anxious. But her her gay boyfriend is

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Speaker 1: there to go shopping with her and provide her emotional

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Speaker 1: support and um look fabulous with their when when the

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Speaker 1: time calls for it, And there is so much back

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Speaker 1: clash and uh, the pieces I was able to find

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Speaker 1: against this this idea, because it's become such a caricature

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Speaker 1: that to think that, you know, the only non threatening

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Speaker 1: man in a woman's life is going to be this

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Speaker 1: very effeminate gay man. Well, you made an interesting point

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Speaker 1: too when we were talking earlier, and not to always

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Speaker 1: come back to sex in the city, but I think

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Speaker 1: that it is a prime example and where all this

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Speaker 1: stuff kind of popped ups are popping up in popular culture.

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Speaker 1: Um was that you had. It's about this tight enknit

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Speaker 1: group of girlfriends who don't let any straight men into

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Speaker 1: their life unless they're dating prospects. And the only other

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Speaker 1: men that you see on the show outside of that

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Speaker 1: are Charlotte and Carey's quote unquote gay boyfriends, Stanford and Anthony,

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Speaker 1: and other than that, that's it. You know, men are

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Speaker 1: reduced to either non threatening shopping buddies or um romantic interests,

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Speaker 1: and I don't and I think that that's um kind

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Speaker 1: of doing a disservice to the potential of male friendships.

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00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: I almost feel like we're a very special episode of

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00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: Sesame Street Christian because the message here, I mean, it's

431
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: it's such a silame message when you say it out loud,

432
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: but it's your you really do have just to take

433
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 1: away all your perceptions of these people away and just

434
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: be friends. And where it all goes back to big Bird.

435
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: And I think one of the reasons why maybe um,

436
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: this quote unquote gay boyfriend uh pop culture trend, if

437
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: you will, has come under a lot of fire, especially

438
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: from the gay community, is that it's not always a

439
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: mutually beneficial relationship. It seems like these men a lot

440
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: of times are being treated more as an accessory of

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00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: fun accessory than um actual people. UM. And I say

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00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: that in reference to Thomas Rogers's Peace and salon titled Ladies,

443
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm Not Your Gay Boyfriend, and I think he brings

444
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: up a good point talking about how before um, homosexuality

445
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: was more accepted, more common in today's culture, he says

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00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: it was mutually fulfilling relations ship between you know, a

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00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 1: gay guy and a straight girl. He said, men got

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00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: the appearance of heterosexual legitimacy and intimacy free of sexual tension,

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00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: and women got a touch of glamour and performance and exoticism.

450
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: But he says that now um, friendships between gay men

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00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: and straight men are no longer as taboo as they

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00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: once were. And you know, for him personally that he's

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00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: just as willing to mix with uh, you know, straight

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00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 1: male friends as straight girlfriends. Big bird, big bird, big

455
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: baron action. Yeah, well, guys, there's so much more to

456
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: talk about in regards to friendship. Of course, we only

457
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: have time to scratch the surface today on male female friendships,

458
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: and so we would love to know your thoughts on

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00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: this topic. The email address is mom Stuff at has

460
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. And I just want to point

461
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: out that all the sources we use for our podcasts

462
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: are now being put up on our weekly blog roundup. Yes,

463
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: so uh real quick, let's get into some listener mail. Okay,

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00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 1: I have one here from Alisa who writes regarding the

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00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: Male Facial Hair podcast. I thought a fundraising campaign that

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00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: was held recently here in Iceland might be of interest

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00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: to you. They call it Mantu Mars, which means Mustache March,

468
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: using mustaches as a way to raise awareness and funds

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00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: for the types of cancer that afflict men. Guys grew

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00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: mustaches during the month of March and then posted their

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00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: efforts on a website where donations could be given based

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00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: on how much people like their style. The competition could

473
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: be entered individually or by company, and people really got

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00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: into it. Companies added mustaches to their logos, made pun

475
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: versions of their names and included the word mustache, and

476
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: did elaborate photo shoots together. Politicians started sporting mustaches, people

477
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: took pictures of their kids wearing stick on mustaches, and

478
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: the whole country generally started looking more like Eastern Europe,

479
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: where they seem to like mustaches a lot more than

480
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: Icelanders do. And I know that those sort of competitions

481
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: are very popular all over the world, so says Lisa.

482
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: I love got one here from ed also about facial hair,

483
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: and he shared a pretty sweet story with us. He said,

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00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: when I first met my wife, if I had a

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00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: full red goatee, I shaved it off while we were dating,

486
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: but grew a full beard while living in Ireland after graduation.

487
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: Flying home from Ireland to propose to her, I stopped

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00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: at my dad's house, who told me, no woman will

489
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 1: agree to marry a man with a beard. I shaved

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00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 1: just in case, and she said yes. For our engagement photos,

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00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: I had a full handlebar mustache, and this is a

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00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: photo she keeps at her bedside all these twenty years.

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00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: And that's the thank you, ed Um. And then I've

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00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: got one to wrap things up from George. This is

495
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 1: also about facial hair, and he said, I'm the U. S.

496
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: Marine Corps and being clean cut and shaved is absolutely required.

497
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: I have to shave twice a day. Sometimes mustaches are allowed,

498
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: however they are rare. The reason for all of this

499
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: is for uniformity and cleanliness. Uniformity is very important, of

500
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: course in the military, and having a beard to keep

501
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: neat and clean would get cumbersome, especially in combat. And

502
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: having short hair is low maintenance. As much as I

503
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: disagree with the idea of it being feminine to shave

504
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: much like a woman would put on makeup, I noticed

505
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: an interesting occurrence with my girlfriend. I let my facial

506
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: hair grow to the point where I had some noticeable stubble,

507
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 1: and my girlfriend found that very, very attractive. So I

508
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: would like to just reinforce that point as being true

509
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: in my case. So thank you George, and thanks to

510
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: everyone who has written in and again. Our email is

511
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: moms stuff at how stuff works dot com. You should

512
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter and become fans of us on Facebook.

513
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: We would love to see you on there, see you're

514
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: shining faces. And last week not least head over to

515
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: our blog because like Molly said, you can find all

516
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: of our sources and cold posts throughout the week. It's

517
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Want more how stuff works,

518
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: check out our blogs on the house stuff works dot

519
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: com home page. Brought to you by the reinvented two

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00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: thousand twelve Camray it's ready. Are you