Speaker 1: There's this group of seniors that works at the EPA,
Speaker 1: and it seems like they really like it. They just
Speaker 1: don't like the insanely low wages they're getting paid. Today.
Speaker 1: On Parts per Billion, we look at the agency's practice
Speaker 1: of hiring retirees and try to figure out whether this
Speaker 1: is a win win or a win lose. Hello, and
Speaker 1: welcome back once again to Parts per Billion, the Environmental
Speaker 1: Podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz. It's
Speaker 1: not always easy to find a job when you're in
Speaker 1: your fifties or sixties, or beyond your skills. Maybe don't
Speaker 1: line up with what employers want. And let's face it,
Speaker 1: age discrimination is a thing. The EPA created a program
Speaker 1: that's designed to address this problem and several others. It's
Speaker 1: called the Senior Environmental Employment Program, and it's relatively unique
Speaker 1: among federal agencies. Most agencies are willing to hire back
Speaker 1: their former employees after they retire on a contract basis.
Speaker 1: Through this program, however, the EPA will hire any senior,
Speaker 1: whether they've worked at the agency or not, to do
Speaker 1: basic administrative duties in some cases, even more complex stuff.
Speaker 1: The EPA sees this as a win win for everyone.
Speaker 1: It frees up the time of its regular employees to
Speaker 1: do more complicated work, and it gives seniors work experience
Speaker 1: and a chance to earn a little extra income. But
Speaker 1: as reporter Stephen Lee found out, the key word there
Speaker 1: is little. The EPA is paying these seniors jaw droppingly
Speaker 1: low wages and hasn't changed their pay scale in nearly
Speaker 1: a decade. Steven spoke with several of the EPA senior
Speaker 1: workers and they told him they're getting really frustrated with
Speaker 1: this wage stagnation and they think the program isn't doing
Speaker 1: what it was created to do. It's really the intention
Speaker 1: was to give older workers a chance to be productive
Speaker 1: in their golden years, lets them keep busy, it lets
Speaker 1: them earn a little extra money, and at the same
Speaker 1: time they are contributing their valuable expertise to the EPA,
Speaker 1: So you know, in theory, it's a win win. And
Speaker 1: the agency calls it a work experience program and sort
Speaker 1: of with the suggestion being that it's kind of for
Speaker 1: people to learn. So who are these people? Are they
Speaker 1: former EPA employees or could it just be anyone? Some
Speaker 1: of them are former EPA employees. You don't have to
Speaker 1: be you just have to be over the age of
Speaker 1: fifty five, so they you know, people kind of come
Speaker 1: from different backgrounds, and it also depends on the type
Speaker 1: of work you're doing. I mean, it ranges from clerical work,
Speaker 1: you know, those people tend to come from maybe they
Speaker 1: worked in an office their entire lives. That's at the
Speaker 1: low end, and then on the high end you've got
Speaker 1: professional and scientific workers. And those tend to be people
Speaker 1: who have some, if not EPA experience, some kind of
Speaker 1: government experience. So it sounds like they're doing stuff that's
Speaker 1: not just kind of menial, like low skilled work. Some
Speaker 1: of these seniors are actually doing pretty substantive work here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some of them are. I mean I talk to a
Speaker 1: couple of people who are long term scientists government and scientists,
Speaker 1: talked to some people who have experience in kind of
Speaker 1: the mechanics of sort of working in a government bureaucracy.
Speaker 1: There was one person I spoke to who was involved
Speaker 1: in handing out certain kinds of permits, and you know,
Speaker 1: that's a fairly specified type of job. And you know,
Speaker 1: what this person said is that there's only two people
Speaker 1: in that office who know how to do that kind
Speaker 1: of work. You know process these permits and the other
Speaker 1: person's a contractor. So in other words, there's no full
Speaker 1: time EPA employee in this very large regional office that
Speaker 1: knows how to do the work that this retiree is doing. Okay,
Speaker 1: so it sounds like they're doing some you know, essential
Speaker 1: work that maybe a few other people know how to do.
Speaker 1: How much are they getting paid? There is a pay scale.
Speaker 1: It starts at seven dollars and twenty seven cents an hour.
Speaker 1: That is not what most economists would consider to be
Speaker 1: a living wage, and it does range up out at
Speaker 1: eighteen dollars and sixteen cents an hour, so still not
Speaker 1: a lot of money. And that's for like, that's at
Speaker 1: the very high end for scientists and professionals. These wage
Speaker 1: rates were set several years ago by the EPA and
Speaker 1: they have not been increased since twenty ten. How does
Speaker 1: the EPA justify such a low salary because I mean
Speaker 1: these are I mean that's in some states lower than
Speaker 1: the minimum wage. Right, It's important to note that it's
Speaker 1: they're not violating any labor laws in the states where
Speaker 1: they are paying very low wages. I mean, they are
Speaker 1: abiding by the law. But they basically say that you know,
Speaker 1: these wages are fair for the kind of work that
Speaker 1: people are doing. And they also say that, you know,
Speaker 1: you cannot compare these wages to the wages of full
Speaker 1: time EPA employees because the type of work and the
Speaker 1: responsibilities are so different. Wages are not the only thing
Speaker 1: that the these seniors are getting from the government. They're
Speaker 1: also getting health insurance in some cases. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about how that works. I mean, that seems, especially for seniors,
Speaker 1: that's a pretty big benefit. The health insurance, according to
Speaker 1: the EPA, does not require participants to pay premiums, so
Speaker 1: that's a good benefit, I'll say. But what I did
Speaker 1: hear from some retirees is that the deductibles are very high.
Speaker 1: One person said that her deductibles eighteen hundred dollars and
Speaker 1: for catastrophic it's thirty five hundred. So you know, if
Speaker 1: you're making twenty thousand dollars a year. And the other
Speaker 1: thing I should mention too, is that this is full
Speaker 1: time work. For a lot of people. They're working thirty
Speaker 1: five forty hours a week. They're not just going over
Speaker 1: to the EPA for a couple hours in the afternoon,
Speaker 1: so they don't consider that to be a great benefit.
Speaker 1: So we're going to take a quick break. Now we
Speaker 1: come back, we'll ask even how the coronavirus pandemic is
Speaker 1: affecting this whole situation. Stay tuned. We're back and we're
Speaker 1: talking with environmental reporter Stephen Lee about the EPA's practice
Speaker 1: of hiring seniors at very low wages. Steven says, the
Speaker 1: older workers here don't really have a ton of bargaining power.
Speaker 1: It's very hard. They have very little bargaining power. They're
Speaker 1: not in a union, and there's no national organization that
Speaker 1: represents them, so there's very little they can do. You're right, Well,
Speaker 1: the one thing they want is a wage increase, and
Speaker 1: the EPA has so far not agreed to give them that.
Speaker 1: And the retirees just have very little ability to force
Speaker 1: the agency's hand because you know, look, they need these
Speaker 1: jobs to put food on the table and gas in
Speaker 1: the tank. And so they're trying to come together in
Speaker 1: little groups here and there, sort of across the country.
Speaker 1: They're writing letters, they're trying to make connections, they're trying
Speaker 1: to reach the right people, but they have been frustrated
Speaker 1: by the fact that they have not been able to
Speaker 1: get much done and it's it's worth mentioning that they
Speaker 1: also don't want to stir up too much trouble. I mean,
Speaker 1: these people, for the most part, feel lucky to have
Speaker 1: these jobs, and they need them to make ends meet.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like, you know, they the people who
Speaker 1: have these jobs, the seniors that you spoke with, feel
Speaker 1: like they want to be a part of a sort
Speaker 1: of mission driven organization. Because one of them said, you know,
Speaker 1: I could be making more money at a car wash
Speaker 1: than working here. So it must be that there's some
Speaker 1: sense of pride that they get that you know, keeps
Speaker 1: them there as opposed to working at a you know,
Speaker 1: minimum wage job elsewhere. Yeah, that's absolutely true, and it's
Speaker 1: true across the board of everyone who works at the EPA.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, for the most part, these are
Speaker 1: people who have desirable, marketable skills. And of course that's
Speaker 1: not true necessarily across the board. There are some clerical folks,
Speaker 1: but in general, I mean, the reason that people want
Speaker 1: to work at the EPA, whether they're retirees or their
Speaker 1: full time employees, because they're drawn to the mission. They
Speaker 1: want to do something that's good for the nation, good
Speaker 1: for the environment, and so and they are almost uniformly
Speaker 1: delighted to be working at the EPA. They find it
Speaker 1: very fulfilling and rewarding, and they feel like they're really
Speaker 1: contributing to something important. They just want to get a
Speaker 1: little bit more pay. Let's talk about those other people
Speaker 1: at the EPA though, I mean the full time employees
Speaker 1: who are earning you know, regular federal employee salaries. I
Speaker 1: have to imagine this isn't great for them either, a
Speaker 1: because it sort of, you know, erodes their bargaining power,
Speaker 1: you know, if they want to negotiate for higher wages
Speaker 1: that the EPA can just say, oh, we'll just have
Speaker 1: a sort of senior do this for less pay. But
Speaker 1: also that it had you know, it has to be
Speaker 1: frustrating because the agency has had such a reduction in
Speaker 1: headcount over the last decade or so, and it seems
Speaker 1: like this is a way that the agency can still
Speaker 1: do the same, do more with less, or do the
Speaker 1: same with less. Yeah, some people have said that. Some
Speaker 1: of the retirees have said, look, I think this is
Speaker 1: a way of getting like really cheap labor. You're right,
Speaker 1: we know that the EPA has been reducing staff, but
Speaker 1: they also have been reducing the numbers of retirees in
Speaker 1: this program. And when you talk to regular employees, they
Speaker 1: for the most part support the retirees. They want to
Speaker 1: see them get more pay. You know, they work with
Speaker 1: these people, they have personal relationships with them, they like them,
Speaker 1: and you're right they say that they have been short
Speaker 1: staff for years. These people play an important role in,
Speaker 1: you know, filling in some of the gaps and doing
Speaker 1: some of the back office work that is necessary for
Speaker 1: everything the EPA does. And if you didn't have this
Speaker 1: kind of core of retirees helping out and you can't
Speaker 1: hire more people, then you're going to have to transition
Speaker 1: full time employees into those jobs. So this the presence
Speaker 1: of these retirees, I think freeze up the full time
Speaker 1: employees to do other kinds of work. But finally, I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you about the pandemic because it
Speaker 1: affects everything and it may affect this. Seniors are of course,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the people who are the most
Speaker 1: at risk for complications from contracting the coronavirus, and I
Speaker 1: have to imagine that you know, it was already difficult
Speaker 1: to bring these seniors on before because of the wages
Speaker 1: being so low, and it just feels like that must
Speaker 1: have been that must be getting even more difficult. Now,
Speaker 1: what's going on with that? How is the pandemic and
Speaker 1: the way it affect seniors affecting this program at the EPA.
Speaker 1: It's a good question, man, I'm afraid I don't have
Speaker 1: a great answer. I think you're probably right. It stands
Speaker 1: to reason. And and the other impact that I think
Speaker 1: coronavirus is having is that, you know, obviously the economy
Speaker 1: is creating, and people are increasingly worried about their personal finances,
Speaker 1: whatever their jobs are. And again and again I heard
Speaker 1: that people in this program are really concerned about their
Speaker 1: job security. So you would imagine that if they were
Speaker 1: worried about making ends meet before coronavirus, they've got to
Speaker 1: be even more worried about it. Now, that's a great point.
Speaker 1: I guess that that you know, on the one hand,
Speaker 1: you would think it might make you know, it might
Speaker 1: reduce the workforce I guess to draw from. But on
Speaker 1: the other hand, you're right, the want people the seniors
Speaker 1: who currently fill these jobs would have would be even
Speaker 1: more you know, hesitant to kind of agitate and to negotiate,
Speaker 1: so that just puts them in an even tougher situation, right,
Speaker 1: And you know, what we also know is that there
Speaker 1: is age discrimination. It's a lot harder to get a
Speaker 1: job when you're over a certain age. And you know,
Speaker 1: the fact is that people are living much longer now,
Speaker 1: and so you know, it's it's getting harder and harder
Speaker 1: to have enough money saved up for retirement when you're
Speaker 1: fifty five or sixty or whatever, however old you are,
Speaker 1: and you know there's a chance you made to live
Speaker 1: another thirty forty years. We are seeing more and more people,
Speaker 1: you know, older people being forced to find other work
Speaker 1: to sustain themselves. That's it for today's episode of Parts
Speaker 1: per Billion. If you want more environmental news, check out
Speaker 1: our website newstot Bloomberg environment dot com. That website, once
Speaker 1: again is news dot Bloomberg environment dot com. Today's episode
Speaker 1: of parsprobillion was produced by myself along with Josh Block
Speaker 1: and Marissa Horn. Parts per Billion was created by Jessica
Speaker 1: Coombs and Rachel Daegel. Music for today's episode is a
Speaker 1: Message by Jizarre and Flagwaiver by Alan Morehouse. They're used
Speaker 1: under a Creative Commons license. Thanks everyone for listening. Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm Laura Carlson and I'm dropping into your feed to
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