1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Strap on your parachute. It's time for What Goes Up 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: with Sarah Ponzick and Mike Reagan. Hello and welcome to 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: What goes Up, a Bloomberg weekly market podcast. I'm Sara Pantek, 4 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: a reporter on the Cross Asset team, and I'm Mike Reagan, 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: a senior editor on the Markets team at Bloomberg. This 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: week on the show, COVID nineteen has changed how we 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: all live and how many invest and that evolution is 8 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: still taking place. So how has it all changed for 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: the type of investor that some would call an opportunistic 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: bear a short seller. We speak with one of the 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: best in the industry, and of course we will close 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 1: out the episode with our tradition the craziest thing I 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: saw in markets this week? And please, if you saw 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: something crazy, give us a call and let us know 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: about it on the Bloomberg Podcast hotline at six ft 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: six three to four three f nine, Oh, and leave 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: us a voicemail. Maybe we'll play it on the show. Also, 18 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: you can tweet in our general direction at podcasts and 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: let us know the craziest thing you saw on markets 20 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: and we'll we'll perhaps bring it up in the show. 21 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: I got a couple of crazy things, Sarah, get ready, 22 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm coming in hot. I'm gonna see if you can 23 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: top yours from last week because I'm still impressed um 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: by it, Mike. But also I do want to say 25 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: we got a reply from one of our listeners on 26 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: Twitter who reached out in response to one of our 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: crazy things from last week, so I also have that 28 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: tweet handy for us to read out. Absolutely good. We 29 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: like the interaction, so keep the tweets coming, keep the 30 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: voicemails coming. We're happy to hear, uh, you're crazy. Thanks. 31 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: In just a general opinion of the show, who you 32 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: think would be a good guest. We're open to all 33 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: your suggestions here and what goes up Sarah. Before we 34 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: introduced our guests, I gotta give a shout out and 35 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: thank you to my friend Dave. I'm actually in my 36 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: friends basement right now because there's work being done at 37 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: my house and these guys are making a lot of 38 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: noise and making even more noises my my darn dog 39 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: will not shut up. So thanks to Dave for letting 40 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: me squat in his basement. Here well as Dave a 41 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: listener of the podcast, I'll probably listen to this one 42 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: if I tell him, Okay, gave a shout out and 43 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: his kids got one of those cool video game chairs. 44 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: You know, I feel like Captain Kirk here sits in 45 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: the chair, if only you had the big headphones onto. 46 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: I know, I know, I need I need more, I 47 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: need more gear. But as you said, uh, Sarah turning 48 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: the show this week, actually second time on the show. Uh. 49 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: He's the founder and chief investment officer of the hedgephone 50 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: spruce Point Capital Management. Uh. He's very successful short seller 51 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: and researcher into companies and short ideas. His name is 52 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: Ben Axer. Also, Sarah, I'm claiming this guy is a 53 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: Jersey guy too. I know, I don't think he lives 54 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: there anymore, but he is a Jersey guy at heart 55 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: to the show. Let's be clear, that's South Jersey, not 56 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: North Jersey. Oh boy, yeah yeah, I'll say being from Florida, 57 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: making that South versus North distinction is pretty pretty important too. 58 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: That's important Ben, as uh, Sarah alludes to in the introduction. 59 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: You know, you've kind of made your your name and 60 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: your fame as a short seller. But your fund is 61 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: a long short fund, and I'm just curious, I know, 62 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: especially in the ball utility earlier in this year, was 63 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 1: it almost time to take your your short seller hat 64 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: off and start looking at long So I mean, any 65 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 1: opportunities on the long end for you this year? Yeah, 66 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean certainly, um in March when there was a 67 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: lot of forced the leveraging and forced selling, that was 68 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: you know, a good time to rebalance the book a 69 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: little bit, you know, take some opportunistic gains on the 70 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: short side, um, and look to rebound, look to find 71 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: you know, opportunistic longs. More of our longs are you 72 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: know index hedges. You know, with what we're trying to do, 73 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: We're trying to find fundamentally flawed companies with poor governance, 74 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: bad accounting, short those and be you know long and 75 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: underlying index like and industry index and then create alpha 76 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: right by benefiting from the decline and the the overvalued 77 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: or poorly organized security and uh you know be headed 78 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: with some some underlying index there. So yeah, it was 79 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: a great time to rebalance and uh, reorganize and rethink 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: about the strategy um in the post COVID world. So, 81 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 1: like you said, you like to really dig into statements, 82 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 1: balance sheets and and find issues with accounting. But I 83 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: am just curious. There's this one index that I track 84 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: often just kind of as a sentiment indicator of what's 85 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: going on in the market, and that's a Golden SAS 86 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: basket of the most shortage stocks, and it hit a 87 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: record high. I tweeted about this, and my little claim 88 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: to fame, I guess is that it went viral. Jim 89 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: Chaino's brought it up in a conversation and mentioned that 90 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: of Bloomer Reporter had written R I P shorts And 91 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: I do want to get your sense like, yes, yes, 92 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: you focus on individual companies, but if you look at 93 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: this market from a whole, how difficult has it been 94 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: to be someone who really does make a business or 95 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: make a profit from being bearished on companies? No, it's been. 96 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: It's an incredibly difficult and it's getting more difficult. I 97 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: think the biggest impediment to successful short selling is you know, 98 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: monetary policy and and what the Feds you know, looking 99 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: to do, which is, you know, bring rates to ultra low, 100 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: ultra low levels that make you know, holding cash, you know, unattractive. 101 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm constantly looking at you know, interest 102 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: rates and what what banks are offering, how yield savings banks, 103 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: which at the beginning of the year we're offering to 104 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: two and a quarter two and a half percent and 105 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: now offering sixty basis points. So you know, you look 106 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 1: at inflation and then you you take the after tax 107 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: gain on holding money and how yield savings account and 108 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: you're losing money, right, So, UM, the money, relatively speaking, 109 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: is going into the market. Some people view the market 110 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: is attractive UM, and that's pushing up valuations, which makes 111 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: it very difficult to short individual securities, particularly individual securities 112 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: that are heavily you know, index owned UM. As you said, 113 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: now there's an index that even tracks most shorted UM stocks. 114 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: I mean there's an index for almost everything, and then 115 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: you have a lot of money following index behavior. So 116 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: what we're trying to do is find stocks that are 117 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: not heavily indect owned, that are heavily retail traded or 118 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: hedge fund owned. That way, we know there's an act 119 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: an active holder that we can communicate with and try 120 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: to convince them of our alternative viewpoints on the stock. 121 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: So so yeah, it's gotten more difficult. It's it's very 122 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: m rate dependent, index dependent, but there are still ways 123 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: to be successful by you know, navigating what works and 124 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: what doesn't. Well. Sorry, I like that humble brag you 125 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: got in there about your tweet that went viral. That 126 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: was that was well done that. I had a viral 127 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: tweet recently too. It was I was drinking a beer 128 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: at a bumble bee landed in my beer and drek 129 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: itself to death and I took a video of it. 130 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: That tweet went viral too, but maybe not as cool 131 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: as your. I I saw that video, that's the one 132 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: that went viral, like that was sort of baby fire. 133 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: I kind of felt bad for the bee people. A 134 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: lot of people were mad at me for not saving 135 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: that be, but I'm I'm a little chicken. It was 136 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: a good been, a good Jersey beer cane. I couldn't. 137 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 1: I could not let that be get away with drinking 138 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: too much of it. But Charah's your point about the 139 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: most shorted uh you know uh index Goldman index. But 140 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: I think if I know your process a little bit 141 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: the way I do, I think you you probably tend 142 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: to stay away from the type of sort of popular, 143 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: crowded shorts that end up on a list like that. 144 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: Is that sort of an intentional thing? Um? You know, 145 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: you try to sort of go where other shorts you know, 146 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: aren't really crowded into and making it sort of the 147 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: position susceptible to a squeeze. Yeah, now that's a great point, Mike. 148 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: Um I would say some of my least successful shorts 149 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: have been ones that you know, the short interest has 150 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: been over ten or fift it indicates some level of 151 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: crowded nous and or you know, there's already a well 152 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: known short thesis in the marketplace. Um So, our better 153 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: success has been with companies short interests under five percent, 154 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: ideas not heavily socialized. You know where we scour the public, 155 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, blogosphere and don't see any evidence that anyone's 156 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: talked about a particular stock. Um you know, we've written 157 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: two reports recently, one on son Nova, another one on 158 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: GFL environmental relatively undiscussed companies still multibillion dollar market caps 159 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: where we can be a leading voice, you know, companies 160 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: of low short interests, where you know the risk of 161 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: a squeeze is low. So, Ben, something that I thought 162 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: of a lot about lately, and I feel like we 163 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: hear about constantly is how the coronavirus is changing trends 164 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: and what that may mean and Oftentimes people point to 165 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: big mega cap tech companies or the likes of Zoom, 166 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: which we are using right now, UM, that really enable 167 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: people to work from home, that enable a digitized environment. 168 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: And I'm curious from your perspective the way you think 169 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: if there are any trends that you see really emerging 170 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: from what's happened in and lasting and how you can 171 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: then funnel that into possibly your process or just a 172 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: broad investing process in general. Yeah. Absolutely, We're definitely looking 173 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: at how covid has reshaped the universe and the world 174 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: we know and certainly you know, one of our key 175 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: early conclusions was that the you know, internet and e 176 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: commerce was gonna was going to really grow its share 177 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 1: of the consumers um purchasing behavior. You know, we identified 178 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: a company earlier this year that we we've showed him 179 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: been public about called Prestige Brands. UM. They're a roll 180 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: up of OTC branded products. UM. These could be throat 181 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: lozengers or other things you might find in a write 182 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: aid or a CBS in the drug store. They have 183 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 1: a relatively undeveloped e commerce strategy, you know, under ten 184 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: percent of their sales re reconnerce and they celebrant, you know, 185 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: a branded product when you know, for example, if you 186 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: go into CBS or Walmart, you might find a store 187 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: brand at a cheaper price. So you know, in the 188 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: COVID world, you have high unemployment, you have consumers looking 189 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: to save money UM, and you have consumers looking to 190 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: shop online. So a company like Prestige Brands, we believe 191 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: it's ill suited for this with a higher price product 192 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: and a very undeveloped e commerce strategy. So you know, 193 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: absolutely we're thinking about this. I mean, these are going 194 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: to be longer term impact trends. We had always been 195 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: vocal in our belief that you know, a vaccine and 196 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: a resolution to this pandemic was going to take longer 197 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: than anticipated. They were continuing to think about ways and 198 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: UM which companies are going to benefit and and being 199 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: a disadvantage in this new paradigm. Yeah, but I know 200 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: some of your early successes were with companies from Trying 201 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: that had had listed in the US. I feel like 202 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: that's come full circle now where there's so much scrutiny 203 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: on those companies that the Trump administration obviously putting a 204 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: lot of threats and pressure on UM potentially delisting them 205 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: and you know that sort of thing. Has that opportunity 206 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: set sort of been exhausted or maybe not exhausted, but 207 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: you know, it seemed to be a very sort of 208 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: not to say shooting fish in a barrel, but but 209 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: almost a very lucrative, you know, fertile place to look 210 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 1: for shorts, say five to ten years ago. Is that 211 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: Are there still opportunities there? Or has the rest of 212 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: the world caught up with the people who were looking 213 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: skeptically at China and and even the regulators in the 214 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: US catching up this undergreen. Yeah, that's a great question. 215 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: I would say, Um, it's definitely gotten harder UM in 216 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: the quest to find, you know, find, exploit, uh and 217 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: hold accountable Chinese investment scams UM. The first generation that 218 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: I was involved with back in two thousand, eight, nine 219 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: and ten, exposing those companies, it was like shooting whether 220 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: they say fish in a barrel or ducks in a barrel. UM. 221 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: Some of the frauds were very obvious. UM. But it's 222 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: like a cat and mouse scheme, right the uh you know, 223 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: the mouse got smarter and figured out, you know, how 224 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: to avoid the cat. UM. So successive generations of Chinese 225 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: frauds have been harder to identify. And also I would 226 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: point out, you know, getting information out of China's been 227 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: very hard. I mean, the Chinese are very attuned to 228 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: the fact that short sellers are looking at their stocks 229 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: here in the New York Stock Exchange in the NASDAK 230 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: and so accessing information UM that was more easily available 231 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: ten years ago is getting harder. And frankly, that's you know, 232 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: one of the reasons, you know why we've been spending 233 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: a little bit less time on our shorts in China. 234 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: We've actually found more success up in Canada. We've spent 235 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: a lot of time looking at the Canadian market, which 236 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: is very receptive to short selling, has been receptive to 237 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 1: us UM and I we think is you know, underserved 238 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: from a short selling perspective, But there are still opportunities globally. 239 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: China has definitely gotten harder, but other markets, other companies 240 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: from around the world to come here certainly are good 241 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: opportunities for us to know, to really dig in. So 242 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: sticking with factors then that make your job harder. You 243 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: mentioned the FED earlier on in the show Monetary Policy. 244 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: Looking even further than that, because I remember the last 245 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: time you came on the show, we discussed how fed 246 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: policy and decreasing regulation I'll throw right now although the 247 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: economy needed it, but fiscal policy and a growing deficit, 248 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: all of these factors right now which are really helping 249 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: stocks rise in general. At the same time, though, do 250 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: they make your job at all easier? The fact that 251 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: there are companies that can prosper, that can grow in 252 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: this type of environment that maybe otherwise wouldn't be able 253 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: to do so, or have other underlying issue is at 254 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: stake that can be pinpointed. No, that's a great question. Actually, Um, 255 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: there are puts in takes with everything right, I would 256 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 1: say the opportunities currently are that we're seeing very immature, 257 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: very poorly diligence companies come public probably prematurely. Um. You've 258 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: probably heard a lot about the bulliance and frost in 259 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: the spack market. Special purpose acquisition corporations raising money UM, 260 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: some with almost very limited defined purposes going out buying 261 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: companies and helping them accelerate their I p O process 262 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: quicker than the traditional route. That certainly has caught our 263 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: attention because those companies has said, we believe are a 264 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: little bit less diligence UM and and a little premature. Um, 265 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: so those are those are good opportunities to SPACs and 266 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: even the traditional I p O s that are that 267 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: are coming public now you know, we're seeing them come 268 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: public with less regulatory scrutiny to I mean, the SEC 269 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: is lower the bar a little bit in terms of 270 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, a company not necessarily needing an audit or 271 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: certain at testations. Uh, if they're below a certain threshold level. 272 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: These are opportunities for us, no doubt. Um, well, you know, 273 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: and we certainly welcomed them each thing. You say that 274 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: because I think when the whole we work to baccle 275 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: went down, you know, and they you know, couldn't get 276 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: that I p O to the finish line. Um. I 277 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: think a lot of people interpreted that as, uh, you know, 278 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: it's it's tough to get sort of a questionable company 279 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: to public markets. But you're you're not finding that to 280 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: be the case. It sounds like no. I mean, one 281 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: thing that we like to look at is, uh, you know, 282 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: companies are very keen on promoting their EBITDA or their 283 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: adjusted EBITDA with we work. I remember the whole pushback was, 284 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: you know, we work defined a community EBITDA, which you 285 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: know it was highly adjusted. I mean, look, we wrote 286 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: a report on company called GFL recently and they had 287 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: or run rate EVA DA and it came with a 288 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: paragraph this long of disclaimers about what how they were 289 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: defining it. And these are big red flags. I mean, 290 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: invest just have to get really comfortable with language and 291 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: EVA DA that you could drive a truck through um 292 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: and all the assumptions that management can put into it. 293 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: But this is a classic sign of a you know, 294 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: of a bolt market when companies are able to sell highly, 295 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: highly adjusted, highly aggressive interpretations of EVA DA. So you said, 296 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: these are classic signs of a bowl market. And every 297 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: time I hear that, it's so amazing to me because 298 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: to some of these might seem like late cycle signals, 299 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: but we just experienced a recession and the fastest fall 300 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: into a bear market on record. I mean, when you 301 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: see what's going on with SPACs, when you see other 302 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: factors as you just mentioned, of the sort, what does 303 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: that tell you about where we stand in the market cycle, 304 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: Because it just seems like everything is so twisted lately. 305 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: I think it speaks and and recent evidence points to 306 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: the fact that the cycles are getting shorter and they're 307 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: getting more severe. I remember not long ago in December 308 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: of eighteen, when you know, Donald Trump was ratcheting up 309 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: his China trade war rhetoric, and the market corrected pretty 310 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: swiftly in in December, and then with COVID and slow down, 311 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: the market correct even bigger. I can't tell you what 312 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: the next shock shock is going to be, but it 313 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me if we haven't an even bigger draw down, 314 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, next time. Each each of these cycles, you're 315 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: seeing liquidity getting Look, cycles are good and necessary, particularly 316 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: in my industry, where you know, you have headge funds 317 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: selling strategies and their ability to produce alpha and manage risk. 318 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: And then what happens is, you know, when the market 319 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: corrects really swiftly, you find out who who's doing what 320 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: they're saying, and you know who's really managing risk and 321 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: who's not, and the ones that aren't are getting you know, 322 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: wiped out of the system. And you know, the general 323 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: liquidity in the market we found has been going down. 324 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: So I would expect, you know, more ciglicality. I would 325 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: expect the magnitude of the draw downs and the intensity 326 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: to increase each time. And yeah, and and and I 327 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 1: think possibly diminishing returns to what the FED can do. 328 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: I mean they've already pulled out unprecedented you know, measures 329 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: and buying ETFs, and I don't know how many more 330 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: arrows they have left in the quiver to solve increasingly growing, 331 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: growing problems. And start Just one note to listeners. You know, 332 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: Ben mentioned a few of these stocks. He's he's short 333 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: just out of interest of fairness to them. I'm gonna 334 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: try to dig up all the comments those companies have 335 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: made in response to Ben. No offense been some some 336 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: of them not very friendly towards towards you, as you're 337 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: gonna expect. But but he's rattling, rattling them off left 338 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: and right. So I'll try to find them and we'll 339 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: we include those comments at the end of the episode. 340 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: But I encourage anyone who's interested in this, you can 341 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: read pretty much everything bends are are written about a 342 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: company on his website at spruce Point was it spruce 343 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: Point Capital dot com? Beent spruce Point caps dot com, Ye, 344 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 1: spruce Point Cap And there's some fact that your whole 345 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: method I find fascinating. I mean that's really deep dive 346 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: and heavy duty research. So we will include the company's comments, 347 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: um and anyone. You know, obviously, as an investor, you 348 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: have to do your own due diligence and and it's 349 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: interested in what Ben has to say, read his reports, uh, 350 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: and and make up your own mind. Uh, you know, 351 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: but we will include any comments we've gotten from the 352 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: companies at the end of the episode comment comment. There's 353 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: several no comments. Yeah, there's no I was hoping you'd 354 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: only talk about the ones who had no comments. That 355 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: makes a lot easier, but there's there's and you know, 356 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: and anyone, anyone who's paid attention to this stuff knows 357 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: that the judge and jury and this obviously is the market. 358 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: So we'll see how these trades work out. We always 359 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: like to point out to like in some cases where 360 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: you know, we we have a short recommendation, the stock 361 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: goes up, well, the whole market's gone. You have to measure, 362 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: like how has it gone up relative to the industry 363 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: in the market. What we find is a lot of 364 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: the times that the names that we've written on they 365 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: tend to underperform um and that's really where the you know, 366 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: alpha has generated. So you do obviously a lot of 367 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: digging into balance sheets and a lot of accounting work, 368 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: and I want to get your takes. Something I've been 369 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: thinking a lot about because I read a report that 370 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: talked about how now about of the SMP five hundreds 371 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: value is from intangible assets? How do you possibly view 372 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: intangibles when that's not necessarily something that's going to show 373 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: up in writing on a balance sheet? Or is it 374 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: something that you guys think about when you are thinking 375 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: about a new short position. No. Absolutely, And the GFL 376 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: environmental I keep referencing is is one that we wrote 377 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: about as a perfect example. I mean, they're a roll 378 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: up of over a hundred and forty plus companies in 379 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: the waste management industry. And you know, every time you 380 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: buy a company, you buy the assets of the business, 381 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: you buy the people, and then sort of everything above 382 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: that that you can't ascribe value to is typically goodwill 383 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: and intangibles. It's sort of a plug. Think of it 384 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: as an accounting plug, accounting magic. You know, it's a 385 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: measure to a degree of how much a company is overpaying, 386 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: you know, for an asset. And you know, in the 387 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: case of GFL, they have six and a half billion 388 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: dollars of goodwill from acquiring so many businesses to the 389 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: point where you know, good will is almost of their 390 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: market cap, which is an extreme measure in that industry. 391 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: But but yeah, I mean goodwill is highly susceptible to 392 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: impairment because you know, what we do at Spruce Point 393 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: is look to see, Okay, you know, any company can 394 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: buy another company, but how how do they perform post 395 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: acquisition and did they pay a fair price? And a 396 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: lot of times we find serial acquires like GFL that 397 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: are buying so many businesses they bite off a little 398 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: bit more than they can chew and and end up 399 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: having to impair that goodwill down the road once it 400 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: becomes clear that the businesses haven't performed up to expectations 401 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: and or they've overpaid for that. So, yeah, goodwills and 402 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: intangible is definitely, certain certainly something we look heavily at. 403 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: We look to see what percentage of the balance sheets 404 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: assets um they are and also you know how big 405 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: is that goodwill and intangibles relative to other companies in 406 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: the industry to assess, you know, how aggressive or conservatives 407 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: management been in their accounting for for deals. But I 408 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: wanted to go back to something you pointed out earlier. 409 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: You said you're finding a lot of opportunities in Canada. 410 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's if there's something systemic at play there. 411 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 1: You know, are the Canadian regulators sleep on the job 412 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: or is it Canadian investors are too polite to be 413 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: short dollars? Maybe I picture them being very polite. Is 414 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: is there any or is it just one of those 415 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: pockets of the market that's just been over overlooked by 416 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: guys like you for some reason. I think it's been 417 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: it's been overlooked, But I think structurally there's a little 418 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: bit of a difference there. Um. I think it's more 419 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: of a retail driven investor market. They do have you know, 420 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: institutions and pension funds, but it's not as deep, um 421 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: and developed as as it is here. Um. So you 422 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: find a lot of a lot of you know, retail participation. 423 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: You also have to understand the Canadian economy is slightly 424 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: different than ours, right um. Particularly they have heavy natural resources, 425 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: a lot of gold and silver mining and resource mining. 426 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 1: So those are certainly industries that are prone to uh 427 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: promotions so to speak. You know, where promoters promote that 428 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: they have the next world's greatest gold mine, for example, um, 429 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: somewhere up in the Northern Yukon UM. But no, I 430 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: think it's a little bit more retail driven, a little 431 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: bit less develop from an institutional point of view, and 432 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: also fewer, I would say, there's fewer research coverage providers 433 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: UM in Canada, and particularly alternative research research providers. You 434 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: won't you won't. You don't find any independent firms independent 435 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,479 Speaker 1: of the major banks you know, up in Canada, So 436 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: that that's another reason there's opportunity there. Yeah, but I 437 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: know a lot of times hedge fund managers don't want 438 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: to say what their returns are year to date. Uh. 439 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: But if that's the case with you, can you tell 440 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: us good year, bad year? What kind of year you having? 441 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: I can tell you you know, we're still in business. 442 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: We haven't laid anybody off. We haven't. We haven't laid 443 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: any boy anybody off. And you know we're selectively looking 444 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: to hire two. So I'm not allowed to talk about 445 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: rich earns, you know, publicly. But you know, I still 446 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: have my hair left, the most important, that's the most 447 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: important I have. I haven't. I haven't lost you know, 448 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: too much hair this year, and uh, you know, everything 449 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: everything is good on our And I can just say 450 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: that well, that's great to hear, and you know, you 451 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: make a good point. I've actually been experiencing more hair 452 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: loss this year than usual, and maybe it's just because 453 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: yeah bad, I find hair everywhere really horriful. Ok, well, 454 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: I get it. In my house. You know, three daughters 455 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: and a wife. It's like, uh, well, no, you're not. 456 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: My daughter shed a lot though, I don't. I don't 457 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: get it. I didn't realize you you shed as much hair. 458 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: I've done pretty good. I'm proud of I've got a 459 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: pretty good rug on top. Still, just throw that out 460 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: there for the listeners who don't know. I think we're 461 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: getting to the crazy part. Is it's getting a little crazy, sir. 462 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the crazy part isn't is an our hair discussion. 463 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: The crazy part, Charlie Pellet will have to tell us 464 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: stand clear of the craziest things we saw in markets 465 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: this week. All right, Sarah, I'm double dipping. I've got to. 466 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: But let's start with you. Let's hear what you got alright, 467 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,239 Speaker 1: So this one's for you because I know you love 468 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 1: alternative investments and yeah, so it's pretty alternative, but it's 469 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 1: not as alternative as Michael Jackson Ivy bag I will 470 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: say that Ben, this was Mike's most recent crazy thing. 471 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: He really went off the grid with that one. Um. 472 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: But this was a headline that came across the Buck 473 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,680 Speaker 1: terminal this past week. And it's a JP Morgan sees 474 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: frequent flyer points as alternative for investors, and the lead 475 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 1: re JP Morgan wants to help turn airline and hotel 476 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: loyalty points into an asset it can to stock or 477 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: corn futures. Um. So basically it's this idea that JP 478 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: Morgan wants to go ahead. They're working with Affinity Capital 479 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: Exchange to let companies turn ward programs into a standardized 480 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: exchangeable currency that can be traded by institutional investors. UM. 481 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: So pretty pretty interesting, uh, And I had to raise 482 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: it in the alternative space look and can More importantly, 483 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: can JP Morgan spoof it? I don't know if you 484 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: saw they just they just they just set out a 485 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: billion dollars. Can they spoof a market that they've created? Well, well, 486 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: the exchange hasn't been created yet, so to be seen back, 487 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: I gotta say I've heard crazier ideas. I don't know. 488 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: I it's definitely crazy, Sarah, I give you props for 489 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: that right. Well, that's the thing. It's it's an alternative investment, 490 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem that alternative in this day and age. 491 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: I mean you also think about a lot of these 492 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: airlines putting loyalty points down as collateral. Uh in, I 493 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: mean it seems like it's almost a logical progression. Maybe 494 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: is that stuff transferable? I guess they would have to 495 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: agree to get the companies to to allow to be transferred. 496 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: You know, Charlie Pellett is the expert on airline points 497 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: and credit points. That guy's always got like five credit 498 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: cards opening and shutting, and he's got a pocket full 499 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: of CBS poopons. The guy knows. The guy knows that 500 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: space pretty well. Everything. Ben, how about you? Have you 501 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: seen anything crazy this week? Oh? Boy, every day is 502 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: a crazy day. Um yeah, I mean you know what's crazy? 503 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: Speaking of JP Morrigan, you know, we released a new 504 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: report on Sonova Energy. They're basically a solar financing company. 505 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: Right now, alternative energy stocks are very hot on fire 506 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: so to speak. Um, I guess possibly discounting, you know, 507 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: democratic win and and maybe some more support of these 508 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: money losing businesses. But you know it with Sova, there Um, 509 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: you know, we think they're overvalued because they're not really 510 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: a solar company, but they just financed the solar installation. 511 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: And GP Morrigan of all of all banks that we 512 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: were just talking about, you know, upgraded their set dur 513 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: and upped all the price targets, including for Senova, and uh, 514 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, JP Morgan um should probably receive a gift 515 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: from the chairman of the audit committee of Senova because 516 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, when the when the price of Senova rose yesterday, 517 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: he unloaded a couple hundred thousand shares. So we always 518 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 1: look to see what insiders are doing. And you know, 519 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: when insiders are are selling on an on a nice 520 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: upgrade front from a bank, um, you know, that's something 521 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: that always catches our eye. That's pretty interesting. I like 522 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: how you bring it back home. There been nice well done, 523 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: well done, All right, Sarah, I got a good one. 524 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 1: I don't know I like yours though. This is some 525 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: stiff competition this week. So we just had recently the 526 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: twelfth anniversary of Leman Brothers failure. And what I find 527 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: remarkable about this story is that twelve years later, everything's 528 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: still not resolved, and in fact, there are invest ster's 529 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: in two subordinated bonds from Lehman that just found out 530 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: they're gonna get paid. They're gonna receive a payment, uh 531 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: in sometime in December, I believe it is. Now. They 532 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: haven't said the size of the payment, but these was 533 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: it was one was a five million dollar issue and 534 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: the other was in euros, a two hundred million euro issue. 535 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: They were called enhanced capital advantage preferred securities, So I 536 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: don't know how enhanced they were, but uh. The Bloomberg 537 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: story notes that the less bid on record for one 538 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: of them was at less than one cent on the dollar, 539 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: So who knows what the pain is, but but it'll 540 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: be something. Maybe that one that less than one cent 541 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: bid will end up being a good trade. Who does? 542 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: But did you also find this on and I, you know, 543 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: this was what most read. That's one of my other 544 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: tips is I always look at the most read stories 545 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: of the week, and I think people are asmazed as 546 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: I was that a it's it blows my mind that 547 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: this is still going on twelve years older, that it's 548 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: everything's not resolved and how long that's. You know, it 549 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: just gives you an idea of how big of a 550 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: blow up that was. And how messy it was. Yeah, 551 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: I mean they're getting their they're getting their pay day, 552 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: for sure, but then here's my Twelve years later, they're 553 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: still on the job for the same case of the 554 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: billabill hours. I'd love to see a total tally of 555 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: of legal billbill hours for the Lehman brother It's got 556 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: to be in the millions of hours. But I can't 557 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: even imagine. I can't even here's my fun one from 558 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: the Alternative Assets space. Barack Obama's high school basketball jersey 559 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy nine is up for auction at Julian's Auctions, 560 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: California based auction house. Barack Obama's high school basketball jersey 561 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, Sarah, I'm guessing no one would buy 562 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: the shorts from that air. The shorts were basketball shorts 563 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: were atrocious in that air. My favorite part about it. 564 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: His number was twenty three, just like Michael Jordan's, but 565 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: but a couple of decades earlier. And you know what 566 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: time it is, start It's time to play prices right 567 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: on what you would bid for Barack Obama's high school 568 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: jersey YouTube? Ben, what's your what's your bid? Barack Obama's 569 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: high school. Does it? Is it autographed? It's bast ball 570 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: jersey's not all. I don't believe it's autographed. And I 571 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: don't think they had names on the jerseys. Alably they don't. 572 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: It's gonna say it. Does it say Obama on the back? 573 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: That makes they don't say, They don't say if the 574 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: if the name is included, I'm assuming not, just for 575 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: my general knowledge of nineteen seventy high school basketball, dating 576 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: myself a little bit there been, but also it comes 577 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: with a yearbook with pictures of him. Uh, nice form, 578 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: nice shot with the jersey on, and I mean look 579 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: as a novelty. If the proceeds went to charity for 580 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: a couple of grand you know, I'd wear as a 581 00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: Halloween May Halloween costume. Alright, Sarah. I. Sarah's usually the 582 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: high ball bidder on these things, Ben you Ben's I 583 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: was so terribly off last week, but so was our guest. Um. 584 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: But but you know what, I'm gonna bring it much 585 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: lower this time around, and I'll go with I'll go with. Okay, 586 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: Sarah was saying, I'll pay that, but someone will. Sarah 587 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: was willing to bid two hundred fifty k for Michael 588 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: Jackson's I V Bag Bloodstained. Albeit at ivy Bag talk 589 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: about Froth in the market, I think Sarah's our poster 590 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: child for Froth in the alternative. So the auction house 591 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: and you know who knows how accurate this is, they're 592 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: hoping for a hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand 593 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: for the jersey. See, I was I was gonna go 594 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: with two hundred again, but because I was so terribly 595 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: off last week, I always said, you know, there's absolutely 596 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: no way I can say that once again. Um, I 597 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: don't know. I uh, I don't know about you. I'm 598 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: from out Florida, big Heat fans. So it was watching 599 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: the Heat Lakers game Wednesday and they kept showing Obama 600 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 1: as one of the virtual fans, and I don't know 601 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: what who or who he was talking to, but he 602 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: just kept looking at the camera and speaking. Obviously here 603 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: he was saying, that's pretty good series. Yeah, except for 604 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: the blowout that we had favor the opposite way that 605 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: I was hoping. Um No, but I do want to 606 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: read that tweet that we got from one of our 607 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 1: listeners too. So this comes from at David Taggart David 608 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: Taggart pet macro dot com and last week we spoke 609 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: about Amazon and Echelon and this supposed prime bike that 610 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: was coming out for five hundred dollars. There was this 611 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: huge saga back and forth. Anyway, UM, so you know this, 612 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: this kind of comes back to you too. I don't 613 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 1: know if anyone's called a cameo. You know that app 614 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: or that website that you can go on and you 615 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: can get a celebrity um to say happy birthday or 616 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: whatever it is to anyone. But with this, uh listener 617 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: did was he shared with us that the Peloton girl, 618 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: her name is Monica louise Um. She's on Instagram and 619 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: also on cameo and another Twitter user at typical VC 620 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: booked her, the girl from that now infamous Peloton commercial, 621 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: to actually send a cameo UM to Sitron Research because 622 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: they infamously put out a short call on Peloton and 623 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: it's honestly hilarious. It's it's it's hysterical, especially if you've 624 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: seen that went horribly wrong. That is pretty funny. All right, 625 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll book some of bench shorts for some cameos 626 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: just to get under his skin. Do any of them 627 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: have some bad commercials out there? Not that I know of, 628 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: not so much. Whoever thought a bad commercial would be 629 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: the basis of a good short It's amazing, but I 630 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: guess it didn't last long. And finally, Sarah, I want 631 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: to read those comments from some of the companies that 632 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: Ben has written about. Um. GFL Environmental responded to Ben's 633 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: report after it came out in August. Uh He said 634 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: Spruce Point Capital's commentary on the company is consistent with 635 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: a quote short end distort strategy. Lead Independent Director Dino 636 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: Chiesa said that the board had reviewed the allegations and 637 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 1: found them deeply flawed. He said the board stands by 638 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: its management team and that gfl's financial disclosures are accurate 639 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: in all material respects, appropriate, and comply with all regulatory requirements. 640 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: Uh CEO Patrick Dvigi also issued a statement. Uh He too, 641 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: called the statements by Spruce Point misleading, said they contained 642 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 1: factual errors. He did not specify what the factual errors were. 643 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: He said he believes the acquisitions are quote solely intended 644 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: to benefit the author of the report, who has disclosed 645 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: that it stands to realize significant gains in the event 646 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: that's the stock price of g f VL declines and 647 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: I did receive a response from Sonova Energy International. This 648 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: is via Kelsey Holtberg, the chief of Staff in the 649 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: Office of the CEO. The statement reads quote, we disagree 650 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: with the substance and merit of the report as disclosed 651 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 1: in the form for shares sold by the chair of 652 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 1: the Audit Committee were sold pursuing to a ten B 653 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: five one plan and serted into an advance of Spruce 654 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: Points Report in accordance with SEC rules and the company's policies. 655 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: We have not yet received response from Prestige Consumer Healthcare 656 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: to Ben's report. We will update you with any comment 657 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 1: where we received from them in future episodes. That does it, 658 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: Ben Acler. We're gonna have to leave it there, but 659 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us this week. Thank 660 00:37:50,640 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: you my pleasure. Let's do it again, SI absolutely what 661 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 1: goes up. We'll be back next week. Until then, you 662 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 1: can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app, 663 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if 664 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: you took the time to rate and review the show 665 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can find us. And 666 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. Follow me at at 667 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: Sara Panzac, Mike is at Reaganonymous, and you can also 668 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: follow Bloomberg Podcasts at podcasts. Also thank you to Charlie 669 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: Pellett of Bloomberg Radio and the voice of the New 670 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: York City subway system. What Goes Up is produced by 671 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,760 Speaker 1: Jordan Gospore. The head of Bloomberg podcast is Francesco Levie. 672 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.