WEBVTT - Dan Taberski on Working Girl 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.960 Welcome to Movie Crush, a production of I Heart Radio. 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.080 Hey everybody, and welcome to Movie Crush Friday Interview edition. 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.440 And I'm sitting on a zoom screen across from Dan 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:41.400 to Berski, uh, writer and filmmaker and podcaster. And I 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.200 think maybe the best way to describe you as just storyteller? 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:51.720 Is that fair? Sure you like that? Yeah? That's okay? Documentary? 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:56.000 And how about documentary which is storyteller? Not did n't 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.360 it pick? But you know, look, you're really hung up 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:02.560 on the storytell think it's good to meet you. We 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.800 just met like thirty seconds ago, so right. I learned 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:10.800 you have small ears and that you hate storytellers totally, totally. 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:14.040 That's all you need to know, Folks. Where are you from? Dan, 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.200 New York? Originally born in Queen's Unk Territory and now 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:21.200 you're in Brooklyn? Is that right? Right now? I'm in Brooklyn, 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.120 but I live in Manhattan. I'm kind of curious about 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.520 your I like to talk to guests about the movies 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.360 of their youth and sort of what that what kind 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.720 of impact that had on them? Is his future entertainers 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.080 or or even if it did, and was that something 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:38.080 that were you sort of a movie obsessed kid or 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.880 I was not. Isn't it funny? I was. I It 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.480 never occurred to me to do to sort of make 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.360 any sort of art. Um until well into adulthood. What 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:57.240 was I started public policy in college? Um? Uh? Yeah, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:01:59.080 so I worked in politics for a while. I worked 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.200 at the White House for two years right out of college. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.880 Um and then uh, and then went into UM to 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.440 journalism from there. So so I started, I started in politics, 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.040 which I quickly realized was not for me. What which 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.359 White House did you work in? It was a Clinton 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.280 White House. I was the assistant to the president's economic advisor. 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.920 Really okay, yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. Yeah, 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.560 it was really hard uh and really intense and I 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.000 answered a lot of phones. Uh and it was like, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:32.359 um thrilling, but like incredibly difficult work. Now and I've 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.160 spoken to another couple of people, including recently someone who 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.639 worked in politics for a while where you're how how 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:40.839 how did you go into that? Was it eyes wide open? 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.320 And were they quickly were your I don't mean to 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:47.079 say naive, but did you were you kind of smacked 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.680 in the face with the reality of the situation. No, 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.200 I you know, I sort of I understood, I think 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.520 pretty well the politics of it, and politics and compromise 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.840 and all that stuff. What I didn't under stand is 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.280 that being political and working in politics required you to 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.000 be political on a personal level too. So it required 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:14.360 you to collect people, collect friends, collect uh it required 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:19.480 you to really be outgoing and um um always thinking 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.680 about what relationships can do for you and help you 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.200 to move things forward. And I don't even begrudge people 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:28.760 who do that. It's just not the way I think. 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:30.960 And so I found that part to be a real 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.840 slog like I don't want to I don't want to 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.800 be I'm not that I'm not social enough in the 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:38.800 simplest terms, I'm just I just don't want me that 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:42.880 many friends. So uh So, is it a pretty quickly 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.800 realized thing that like, I'm not gonna go far in 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:48.760 this world because I can't play that game. It was 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.760 I I joined the Clai administration and I stayed through 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.480 the election in ninety six understanding that it was a 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.280 super literally, like, you know, there aren't many things that 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:00.480 one does that feels like an honor, but it it 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:02.440 really does. It really does feel like that to walk 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:04.480 in the White House every day or at least it 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.320 did for me, and so I, you know, the experience 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.960 of doing that was great, but I but I sort 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.200 of knew that I didn't have I didn't have what 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.200 it took to to to sort of be successful. And 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.400 that was right out of college, so early twenties. That was. Yeah, 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.000 it was my first job out of college besides pizzerie. 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:26.880 You know, I was a waiter Atizzie you know. Yeah, 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.719 where did you go from their career wise? Uh? And 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.080 then I went h I moved to New York and 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.320 I worked at NBC news Um for two and a 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.839 half years or three years, and then from there I 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:39.560 went to the Daily Show. So I sort of had 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:45.520 a a brief dalliance with with actual news um and 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:48.320 then uh, my job quickly became making fun of the 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:50.240 news of the Daily Show and and it sort of 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.800 stayed in that sort of metau place. Now, was that 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.960 with John Stewart was or was that still? Was that? Okay? 0:04:58.480 --> 0:04:59.800 It was, yeah, it was John. It was right when 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.200 joh started. It wasn't with Craig Kilborn. He had he 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.679 had left, and so I pretty much started when John started. Wow, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.479 that's cool, You're I've had a bunch of Daily show 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.800 people in the show. Yeah, now that you had Elliott 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:15.080 Kalin right had Elliott on, I've had um Well, John 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.200 Hodgeman's a pal of mine, so he's been on a 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:22.279 few times. And I'm trying to think it seems like, uh, 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:27.640 Dan from the Flophouse has been on. Uh what's the Flophouse? 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:33.720 The Flophouse is Elliott's uh movie show? Oh yeah, he 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:38.119 has the movie podcast, a bad movie podcast where they 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.080 were in his palace talk about a bad movie. It's 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:41.960 pretty funny Dan Dan McCoy. I don't know why Dan 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.040 slipping because dancer friend of mine too, And I don't 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.040 know that one of the b I had Wyatt on 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.000 Wyatt Sanac he was after my time. Yeah, and I've 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.280 been trying to get Chad Carter's an old friend that 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.240 I've been trying to get on. And I think Chad 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.880 probably came on after you two. If he's an old friend, 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.120 why won't he come on your show. I'm just it's 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.440 been a minute and the pandemic kind of screwed everything 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.320 up for a while. I'm just wondering if you're sort 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.440 of judging the friendship. Oh no, it's great. Jed's awesome. 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:12.719 What was the Daily show? Like, was that were you 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.920 producing segments? I was a producer. Yeah, so I would 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.200 travel around with a correspondence and direct and write the 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.960 segments with them. So yeah, super fun and thrilling and 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.560 often scary because you know, you're you're very often you're 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:30.640 you're fooling people. Um and and so that and that 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:32.680 was it was. That was early daily show days where 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:34.800 people really didn't for the most part, people didn't really 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.520 know what it was and they didn't sort of realize 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.479 it until you're in the middle of it. So there's 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.760 always like a light switch moment where they're like, oh, 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:46.400 this is a joke. Um. And that could get yeah 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.320 every once in a while, yeah, but usually I actually 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.520 really uh, it gave me faith in people, Like of 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.320 the time, people think it's great and people think it's 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.080 funny and they and they totally and they totally. Um. 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.600 People have good sense of humor. Uh. And just as 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.320 long as you're not taking them down for no reason. Um. 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.159 But and you're sort of the joke. The target of 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.760 the joke is something else besides them personally, Like, I'm 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.280 always surprised at how people sort of are are happy 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:15.480 to be part of a larger joke. Yeah, uh so 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:20.120 inteen you really kind of I think turned the podcast 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:24.080 world on its ear with Missing Richard Simmons seventeen. What 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:27.280 was it seventeen? Would I say fourteen? Yeah too? That 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.680 unfourtune was serial? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that that turned the 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.600 podcasting world on it's here too, yeah yeah seen. Uh which, 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.600 you know, what were your expectations for that show? Did 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.040 you think it was gonna blow up like it did? No? 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.440 I thought it was uh no, my gosh, no, I 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.400 mean no, it just seemed like the small it was. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.720 It was like a small yeah that like you really 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:57.120 don't have any any reason why people would listen to it, really, 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.160 if that makes any sense. And it felt like a well, 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.320 it's well, it felt like a gesture that I was 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.800 doing about this person that I thought was really important, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.840 special Richard Simmons. But but it it and then and 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.160 then once it starts, once we started to put it out, 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.680 it sort of attracted people in a way that we 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:16.920 didn't expect. And then you realize you're sort of part 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.760 of something that that isn't really yours anymore. Yeah, it 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.440 was really something else. I mean, it was, uh, it 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.120 blew up in a really big way, and I imagine 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.840 gave you sort of all the currency you needed in 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.520 this new medium or new wish medium for you. I guess, uh, 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.840 just sort of do whatever you wanted as a documentarian 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.560 from that point, I mean, short answer, yeah, kind of, 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:41.480 it really felt it did feel that way like it 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.480 it felt like it had touched something and it either 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.160 may maybe people either loved it or hated it, which 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.040 I think is sort of an interesting place to be. UM. 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.040 It means you're sort of you're you're tweaking something right, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.160 like you're you're sort of flicking people's ears in a 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.280 way that sort of makes people stand up a little bit. Um. 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.959 And so yeah, and so it definitely gave me the 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.560 opportunity to work with really good people after that and 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:09.400 and and continue to Um. People would take chances on 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:11.960 sort of weird ideas, and it's a great place to be. 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.200 I love doing and it's it's it's amazing to have 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.760 people take chances on weird ideas. Yeah, and I think 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.520 it was, you know, as someone who's been doing this 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:24.800 for in my thirteenth year or so, it's interesting to 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:30.360 see ideas come around that really shift the landscape of 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.280 the industry, and I think Missing Richard Simmons is definitely 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.920 one of those. And you can always tell when you know, 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:39.760 podcasts are so quick to market and you can that's 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.480 one of the cool things about this medium, as you 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.160 can get something out the door really fast, you know, 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.920 unless it's super sort of long game research heavy, but 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:49.760 then you can still sort of start telling that story 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.800 if you want to. And so that's a cool thing. 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:57.720 But the weird part about that is that it lends 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.560 itself to a lot of copycat material in content, I 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.800 think and Richard and Missing Richard Simmons is one of 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:06.719 those which is a compliment, but like it comes out 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:08.560 and then I feel like a lot of people were like, 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.720 oh my god, like, what's our missing Richard Simmons? Like 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:15.319 and and maybe even sometimes as base of an idea 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.679 is like who can we go out and try and 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:22.040 find who was seemingly disappeared? Yeah, and then it's just 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.360 a scary impulse. Yeah, Like you don't want people doing that. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:29.480 Like that's not like like we took a big We 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.120 were really deliberate and how we went into that project 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.079 and I and I and I had enough information and 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:39.640 and enough contact with the people who close to Richard 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.240 and and and the people involved in his life that 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:46.680 that I had certain I had certainty about things that 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.320 I think, Um, we were just very we want to 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.240 do it, very wide open and very considered, and I 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.120 think I think it's a it's a and we we 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.800 walked a fine line for sure. And but yeah, I 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.080 mean now, yeah, very often you hear like what happened 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:01.079 to this guy? I get, I get, I get missing 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:05.679 Britney Spears tweets all the time. People people want to know, 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.719 like Dann go find Britney Spears, and I'm like, she's fine. 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:11.880 I don't need that fight like she's isn't she in 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.280 Las Vegas or something like. People have a real sense 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:18.040 of like that that this was that it's not something 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:19.640 I don't think it's something I would ever do again. 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.160 So it was just that that person in that situation, Um, 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.240 it's definitely not a model that I've been asked to 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.480 sort of recreate that model, and that was going to 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.959 ask that. I'm sure, Yeah, it's not even something I mean, 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:34.960 if it comes up, I guess, but like it's not, 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.000 it would never happen again because I was I was 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.240 the only reason I did that is because I knew 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:40.960 Richard Simmons, and I was taking his class for a 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:42.400 year and a half, and and it was I was 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.560 sort of involved in that world, and so I wasn't. 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.839 I was much much, much less of an outsider than 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.679 like a normal documentary would be. I don't think I 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.840 would ever have the courage or the balls to like 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.200 to do something like that if I didn't, if I, 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.599 if I didn't know, if I, if I, if I 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:03.800 was this coming in from the outside and parachuting in. Yeah, 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.640 Another show that you've done, which I have yet to 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.000 listen to, which I'm putting at the top of my 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.720 list is Running from Cops, because Cops is this show 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:18.200 that I, um and I never knew when it came 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:19.920 on it was. Cops is one of those shows it 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.360 seems like it was always on, but if you were 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.520 someone who flipped around a television dial, then you would 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.880 run into it. And I felt like I ran into 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.120 it a lot enough to watch it a lot without 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.840 being someone who was like, Oh, it's whatever night, at 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:35.640 whatever time, I got to check out Cops. And it's 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.200 a show that that I feel bad for watching so 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:43.080 much now through today's lens. When I was you know, 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.040 younger and in my twenties, and I was never like raw, raw, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.400 this is awesome, man, like you know what they're doing. 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.520 It was just there was something about it, the spectacle 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.400 of it. I was definitely into. And I would love 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:56.920 to know a little bit more about this project. Yeah, 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:58.520 I mean that was the point of the project. Is 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.559 that I you know, I asked it that I've seen 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.960 maybe five hundred episodes of Cops and this is before 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:05.640 the show. I mean, I just watched it. I'm somebody 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:07.840 who grew up watching television as background noise, and so 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:11.480 I just I'm used to having something on and um, 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.200 and Cops is like perfect, it's on. It's it was 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.600 at the time, it was on fifteen, sometimes twenty times 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:21.600 a day. Yeah. Yeah, so you're not hot. Your senses 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.120 do not lie. It literally is on all the time. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:28.040 And there is something as far as reality shows go, 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.280 there was the sense that you really, you really are 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:39.160 watching something real. They're like that had the elements of reality, 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.959 elements of realness to it that other reality shows don't have. 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:44.400 And and and they also they're training their cameras on 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.880 a on a world that you don't see, that you 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.480 don't really see another reality shows like these are working class, 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:54.920 poor neighborhoods and and people who aren't usually UM sort 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:57.840 of featured in a way that you could sort of 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.640 hear or see about them. But then of course you realize, 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.920 like it's it's and still the project was to explore 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.120 that show. We watched, ultimately watched and analyzed and catalog 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.120 eight forty seven episodes I think it was UM and 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:12.600 just sort of trying to figure out how realist cops, 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.160 what is it we were actually seeing UM and uh 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.160 and uh, yeah, it's it's it's an incredibly fucked up show, 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.360 UM that does incredibly fucked up things to the people 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:27.480 who are on it. UM. I have a complicated relationship 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:29.480 to that show, but UM, but it was it was 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.400 an analysis to exactly what you said, like why why 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.480 am I watching UM? And how are they doing it? 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.080 Like how are they allowed to how is it put together? 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.440 And who's actually like sort of consenting to be a 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.880 part of it? UM, And the answers to that are 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:48.720 are pretty intense. Man, so good, it's so good. Sorry, 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:50.360 I'm not gonna I mean, I shouldn't say that about 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:52.640 my own word, but I'm so proud of it and 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.840 and um, and if you're interested in the show, it's 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.520 just like about the history of of policing on television 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.360 and reality shows and just and how it intersects with 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.440 actual criminal justice and what what you actually think is 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.520 true versus not. Um. And it's been on for thirty 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.720 years and so so it has the influence it has 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.440 not just on on just on reality shows, but on policing. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.960 Like literally, cops become cops because of what they see 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.080 on Cops and so the behavior that they're mimicking is 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.520 the things that reality shows are telling them to mimic. 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.920 It's it's sort of an incredible long term experiment that 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.400 has gone horribly wrong. Yeah, I'm gonna be diving into 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.800 that soon for sure. UM. I want to talk to 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:34.240 you about the line too. Now this is your this 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.840 is Is it currently still in production? Uh? It's There 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.360 was six episodes. The last episode aired a couple weeks 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:45.640 ago early May. Um, where did this story come from? 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.600 And where do your stories come from? Generally? Is it 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:52.440 just literally whatever piques your interest? Running from Cops was 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:54.760 my idea, Mr Richard Simmons, is my idea. And then 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.840 I sort of found partners and collaborators to sort of 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:58.880 make it with UM. The line was actually the first 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.640 one that wasn't my. It was brought to me by 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.400 Apple and Alex Gibney, the director, and they asked me 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.960 if I would be interested in sort of tackling this UM, 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.960 and I just kind of spent a month, uh looking 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.280 back at the Eddie Gallagher trial. It's about the Navy 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.240 seal Eddie Gallagher and the war crimes trial that he 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.680 was involved in. And and but it also just becomes 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.160 much larger about forever wars and what it is that 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:25.320 we're asking people to do when they go out and 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:29.640 fight covertly, UM, especially in the way the wars have 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.720 been fought in the past twenty years since nine eleven. UH. 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:37.680 And so it just becomes a much larger look at UM. 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.680 You know, what's what is the line between combat and 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.920 war crimes? Right? And what is our complicity in that? 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:50.920 UM So fascinating, UM intense UM. We talked to her 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.800 fifty special operators, the Navy Seals who are in it's 0:16:54.840 --> 0:17:00.400 just an incredible, incredibly UM, incredibly unusual people UM, and 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.560 anybody who people who people who can do what they 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.720 do and people who have experienced the things they experience, um, 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.040 regardless of any of the politics around it. It is 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:11.320 just fascinating. That's a fascinating so of dive into that world. Yeah, 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:14.399 it's interesting and that you like, uh, with stuff you 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:18.720 should know. I feel like we covered this these short 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.040 broad overviews of topics, and we've done a couple of 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:23.880 thousand of them at this point, so it's a lot 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.479 of stuff. But it's you know, we're always treading in 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.119 sort of the shallowest waters because of the nature of 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.600 the show. You know, it's we've got to spit something 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.120 out in forty five minutes, which is a good overview, 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:38.080 and you get to really dig in there. And uh, 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.119 I'm jealous in a lot of ways that of that 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:43.679 kind of deep dive journalism. It's something that really has 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.960 always interested me and I found myself and I love 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:48.960 what I do with stuff you should know. But you know, 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.080 I feel like, you know, the grass is always greener, 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.480 I think in this day. But I could also see, 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.280 you know, when you're living and breathing this stuff that 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:02.560 must get tough sometimes. Yeah, it was. It was a 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.879 dark year because I had started doing this project and 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:07.840 then the pandemic came into then I ended up doing 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:11.160 it all from my you know, my attic soundproofd room. 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.920 Uh and and um, and it's it's pretty heavy. It's 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.399 it's it's very very very heavy, and you're talking to 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:22.360 people who have You're not just hearing about intense things. 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.360 You're talking to the um to the people who experienced them, 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.760 and they're they're telling you where their heads are at 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.320 now and and they're and they're allowing you in in 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.960 that sense. Uh and and so yeah, it was it's 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:41.240 it's it's incredibly heavy. But but also like then that's 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.240 that then you're sort of then you just have you 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.720 spend all this time talking to these people, and then 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.800 you you really do have tools to look at a 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.280 story in a situation and the world and that that 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.320 that specific world in a really complete way and have 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:01.360 confidence to sort of make a estimates and actually here, 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:02.960 here's what I think is going on. And so it 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.879 really is a process of like just trying to understand 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:10.960 um and uh, yeah, it's great, But I agree with 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:12.879 grass is always greener. I would love every once in 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:14.600 a while, I'm just thinking, boy, I would love to 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.240 I would love to just talk about something different area, right, 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:22.240 and just you know, uh, but that's that's that is 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.639 not that is not where I ended up. When do 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.200 you know? I feel like we have some listeners who 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.119 probably um either have interest in making documentaries or have 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.520 done so themselves, and it's something that might interest me, 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.800 you know, on down the line in the future. And 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:39.000 I think you tell stories so well. And I've always 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:44.840 wondered when you know that you're done, does that make sense? 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.760 Like when do you know that you have told the 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:52.040 story in is complete a way as you desire? Well, 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:55.560 there's all I mean, uh, in no small part is 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:57.520 because of the deadlines that are that you set and 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.840 that other people set for you, and and that that 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.320 it is important um uh to sort of put a 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:09.240 put a cap on it, because you could really spend forever. Um. 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.679 For me, it's it's this is gonna sound really dippy, 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:17.879 and I don't usually sort of like express this verbally, 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.399 but who cares. Uh, it's sort of like, um, instead 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.639 of it's you think about it like you're investigating a 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.960 feeling like the Eddie Gallagher story and the story of 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.320 Eddie Gallagher and the story of the seals and the 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.880 story of war. It gave me. It made me feel 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.440 a certain way I really couldn't decide how I felt 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:40.440 about it. And I thought I felt like I was 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.800 seeing something that other people weren't expressing, and that and that, 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:46.000 and then once you can get that feeling out of 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.360 your head and into sort of like five hours of audio, 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.359 um and and that it sort of reflects what was 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.440 in your head, then that to me is done. I'm 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.919 not even really thinking about the listener as I make 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.520 and I'm more thinking, is this what I'm thinking? And 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:05.320 and and there's something, there's something that feels complete about 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.200 just like, Okay, I can put it away now because 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.120 here's how I feel about it. Even if you don't 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.119 come up with answers, and I rarely do, they're rarely answers, um. 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.320 But just the exploration of it, to have that feeling 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:19.600 with the music and the people you talk to and 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:21.240 the and the writing you do around it and all 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.520 that stuff. If it feels altogether in a composite like 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.880 that feeling that's in your head, then you're done. That's 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.199 not differ I think that's a great answer. All right, good, Thanks, 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.080 What's what's next? Can you talk about it? Or do 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.359 you got some ideas that you're have tucked away? I 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.760