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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I'll

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Speaker 1: be your host Emily and Shane. Just Shane. This is

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Speaker 1: actually a very exciting day today. We were super happy

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Speaker 1: that this worked out because the Karen Reid verdict came

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Speaker 1: in today, so we were definitely going to get into that.

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Speaker 1: We're just going to go through the case a little bit,

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Speaker 1: do a little overview, go into the closing arguments, and

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Speaker 1: then talk about the verdict. But before we go into

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Speaker 1: Karen Reid, we always like to do a little bit

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Speaker 1: of an update in the beginning on some of the

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Speaker 1: other cases that we talked about. So I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you guys had the opportunity to listen to this episode,

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Speaker 1: but we did go into the Idaho murders a couple

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Speaker 1: episodes back, if you want to go back and look

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Speaker 1: for it. But one of the things that we talked

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Speaker 1: about was the door dash driver Do you remember this?

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Speaker 1: And we were like, there was such a close timeframe

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Speaker 1: as to when the delivery was made and then there

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Speaker 1: was actually evidence of a photo of the food delivered,

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Speaker 1: but this was the same time that Coberger was in it.

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Speaker 2: The door dash issue caused more questions to be had

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Speaker 2: than answer like it Wasn't it more confusing?

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Speaker 1: Most likely? But I remember saying that once this trial starts,

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Speaker 1: we're going to see the DoorDash driver, and that was

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Speaker 1: that was a new update that came out. I read

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Speaker 1: that today that a DoorDash driver is expecting to testify

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Speaker 1: at the upcoming Idaho murders trial, which will start in August.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember the exact date, but it's August, and

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Speaker 1: that she actually saw Brian Coberger during a delivery on

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Speaker 1: the night of the fatal stabbings. It's a forty four

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Speaker 1: year old woman identified only as MM and court documents

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Speaker 1: and she told police during a traffic stop so she

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Speaker 1: got pulled over and Pullman Washington last year, that she

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Speaker 1: delivered food to Xana Kernodle on the early hours of

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Speaker 1: November thirteenth of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: The victims are just someone visiting the house.

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Speaker 1: Xana was one of the college students that was murdered

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Speaker 1: that evening. So the DoorDash driver uttered the words I

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Speaker 1: saw Brian there, two officers, adding that she had parked

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Speaker 1: right next to him when she had pulled into the house.

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Speaker 1: The purported delivery is alleged to have taken place just

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Speaker 1: minutes before Kernodle, her boyfriend Ethan, and the two roommates,

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Speaker 1: Kaylee and Madison were all stabbed to death by a

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Speaker 1: masked assailant. The woman also told an officer that she

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Speaker 1: may be called to the stand to testify at Coburger's trial,

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Speaker 1: according to bodycam video of the conversation, which was posted

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Speaker 1: to YouTube. Quote, I have to testify in a big

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Speaker 1: murder case here because I'm the door dash driver. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: the woman says in the clip as she's being questioned

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Speaker 1: over a suspected DUI back in September of twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's something a doordasher never thought they would

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Speaker 2: be a part of that way, right, Yeah, you when

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Speaker 2: you signed up to be a doordasher, do you think

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Speaker 2: that you would be a witness to like one of

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Speaker 2: the largest murder cases in the country, right in terms

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Speaker 2: of popularity.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that she literally delivered the door dash

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Speaker 1: like as he was No, I mean that's a possibility.

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Speaker 2: What was your tip that night?

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Speaker 1: The trial against Brian Coberger is just a few months away,

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Speaker 1: but family and friends of the victims will have their

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Speaker 1: voices heard in a new documentary which will be on

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Speaker 1: Amazon Prime. It's called One Night in Idea, the College Murders.

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Speaker 2: Oh, when's that coming out.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's a date, but I believe

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Speaker 1: it's soon. It will spotlight the morning after the four

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Speaker 1: University of Idaho students Xana, Ethan, Madison, and Kayley were

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Speaker 1: killed in their home off campus in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: It's told in captivating tents and emotionally wrenching detail by

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Speaker 1: only those involved in and affected by the crime. The

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Speaker 1: series intimately explores the American tragedy and it's continued impact

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Speaker 1: and fallout. This is described in the Amazon Prime press release.

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Speaker 2: Oh, so they've announced it formally.

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Speaker 1: It's actually airing July eleventh, twenty twenty five, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, is the day after that Real Housewives of

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Speaker 1: Orange County Season nineteen airs on July tenth, So this

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Speaker 1: air is the next day.

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Speaker 2: Only eleven affect your ratings.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for that. So you guys will have lots

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Speaker 1: of good stuff to watch in July. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it'll be interesting to see what they

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Speaker 1: do say, because clearly they can't say things or give

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Speaker 1: interviews that are going.

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Speaker 2: To impact impact right, but we're definitely gonna have to

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Speaker 2: discuss that one.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: It's like one episode, do we know?

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Speaker 1: It says a docu series, so there's more than one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's move on, and before we get to

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Speaker 1: the verdict which came out today in the Karen Read retrial,

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Speaker 1: let's just go through and do like a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a reminder about everything that's happened so far. So

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Speaker 1: what were the prosecution and the defense arguing?

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Speaker 2: I know this?

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Speaker 1: So many people are invested in this case, so a

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Speaker 1: lot of you know this. But I do feel like

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Speaker 1: it's important just to have like a basic overview so

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Speaker 1: we can get into closing argument.

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Speaker 2: My memory refreshed, Yes.

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Speaker 1: And Shane has I've been married to him for sixteen years,

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Speaker 1: so his memory is about as long as a butterfly.

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Speaker 2: Because every day you're like, one, I've never heard that,

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Speaker 2: I don't raise before.

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Speaker 1: I figure a butterfly doesn't have a long term memory

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Speaker 1: because they don't last very long. But every day you're like,

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Speaker 1: what are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: Wait? Did you know?

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Speaker 1: Tell me again?

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Speaker 2: What do you know? Now? We're getting something else? That's

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Speaker 2: what you don't tell me what you're doing until five

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Speaker 2: minutes before you're like, oh, yeah, I forgot I'm going

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Speaker 2: to Las Vegas this week.

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Speaker 1: It's true, all right. Anyway, back to Karen Reid. So,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors alleged that Reid hit her boyfriend John O'Keeffe

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Speaker 1: with her car she had Alexis SUV outside of the

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Speaker 1: home of a fellow police officer, Brian Albert, in January

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and left him to die there during

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Speaker 1: a blizzard.

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Speaker 2: This is three and a half years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is after a night of drinking. The defense

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Speaker 1: has argued that Reed's vehicle could not have hit O'Keefe,

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Speaker 1: and instead said that O'Keefe was attacked by a dog

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Speaker 1: and beaten by other people who were in the house

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Speaker 1: before he was then thrown out in the snow and

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Speaker 1: left to die.

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Speaker 2: That's a gang up. When the dog also joined.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, man, the dog's like, let's get him. Okay, Look,

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Speaker 1: I have a I was thinking about this state because

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about how the defense, the defense's complete

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Speaker 1: defense in this case is basically that he was beat

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Speaker 1: up inside the house by other people, police officers, and

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Speaker 1: the dog was a part of it. We have a

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Speaker 1: German shepherd. German shepherd husky. If there is a fight,

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Speaker 1: if there is an altercation in this house, that dog

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Speaker 1: would get into it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, I know, Okay, So what's what's

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Speaker 2: your point?

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Speaker 1: My point is is that pretending or trying to act

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Speaker 1: like a German shepherd and a home of a police

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Speaker 1: officer if there was a fight, that a German shepherd

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have like gotten involved in an altercation with men.

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Speaker 2: When there's you know, well who's arguing that the dog

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Speaker 2: wasn't involved.

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Speaker 1: The prosecution, Well, they're arguing that she hit him. I'm

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Speaker 1: just saying that's not a far fetched idea. That's my point.

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Speaker 1: My point is, it's not like the defense came up

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Speaker 1: with some random theory that's also sense to me.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't sway me one way or another. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's like, you have all these police officers that are

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Speaker 2: alleged to have killed them, and we're worried about whether

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Speaker 2: the dog did or did not scratch him.

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Speaker 1: Well, it comes down to the evidence on his arm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it looks like scratches and.

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Speaker 2: When the dog was relocated, the dog wastection the dog.

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Speaker 1: Is currently yes. Because here's the other thing that didn't

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Speaker 1: make sense. To me, it was Chloe is the dog.

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Speaker 1: Chloe was re home shortly after this incident, And how

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Speaker 1: can you not find Chloe? Like wouldn't you go to the.

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Speaker 2: Police, And well, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like if my dog was involved

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Speaker 1: in an altercation and then I.

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Speaker 2: Just gave him away, shouldn't that be subpoena, Like we're

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Speaker 2: gonna subpoena, Like who the dog?

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Speaker 1: Yes, he's compelled to come into court.

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Speaker 2: I'm just rehome the witnesses and no one's gonna ask

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Speaker 2: about him.

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Speaker 1: A brief overview of what happened after the first trial.

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Speaker 1: So we know that there was a hung jury in

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Speaker 1: the first trial, So the Commonwealth decided to retry her,

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Speaker 1: which again I thought was a huge kind of state.

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Speaker 2: That's exhausting. At least I think a hung jury in general,

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Speaker 2: like as a layperson, a hung jury means there's doubt,

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Speaker 2: and so why would you try again, Like, let's find

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Speaker 2: some more people that might find him guilty. These people

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Speaker 2: didn't find guilty. Find some more these.

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Speaker 1: People didn't work out, Let's try different ones. At least.

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Speaker 1: Forgerers who served on Karen Reid's last her first trial

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Speaker 1: last year have confirmed that she was found not guilty

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Speaker 1: of second degree murder and leaving the scene of personal

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Speaker 1: injury and death, according to Reed's attorneys. I do remember

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Speaker 1: that Reed's attorneys did try to make a motion before

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Speaker 1: the court that she'd be acquitted because there were juries

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Speaker 1: that spoke afterwards that had had relaid the information that

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Speaker 1: they did find her guilty, even though they didn't formally

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Speaker 1: say that, they just just came up with they said,

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Speaker 1: we couldn't make a decision, and.

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Speaker 2: Talked to the jurors then afterwards, because can they be like,

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Speaker 2: what was convincing? Why did you think they were?

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Speaker 1: What worked and what didn't. However, the jury could not

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Speaker 1: come to an agreement on a third charge of manslaughter

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Speaker 1: while operating a motor vehicle under the influence. Her lawyers

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Speaker 1: filed multiple appeals all the way to the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: claiming Read should not have been retried on the counts

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Speaker 1: the jury apparently agreed on, saying it would amount to

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Speaker 1: double jeopardy. Each appeal was denied. She's pleaded not guilty

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Speaker 1: to all three charges and maintains her innocence. She was

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Speaker 1: facing this and this is the retrial. Three main charges

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Speaker 1: with the death of John O'Keeffe's second degree murder, manslaughter

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Speaker 1: while operating a motorcal vehicle under the influence, and leaving

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Speaker 1: the scene of a collision resulting in death.

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Speaker 2: So you might have said this, but can I ask

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Speaker 2: question did? Is she using the same attorneys? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: She Well, she added to her team. She has a

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Speaker 1: bigger team this time, but she's still her main attorneys

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Speaker 1: are Alan Jackson.

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Speaker 2: And then my prosecutor prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: No, remember we talked about this before.

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Speaker 2: That's why I said, Yes, I'm reminding you memory.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's probably worse. They brought in a special prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: Hank Brennan, who also represented or Yeah, the Whitey Bulger.

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Speaker 1: Why Whitey Bulger. Yes, he was a mobster.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you think it, white.

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Speaker 1: Tighty Whitey Bulger. Let's talk about some of the key

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Speaker 1: witnesses and some of the things that were brought up

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Speaker 1: during this retrial.

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Speaker 2: Yes, some basic questions. When was the first verdict again

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Speaker 2: or the first lack of verdict?

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Speaker 1: You mean the mistrial? It was last year, so she.

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Speaker 2: Had to go a year of waiting to be prosecuted again,

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Speaker 2: and then she had to go to a nearly you know,

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Speaker 2: a lengthy trial over a month man, Now, what's she

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Speaker 2: going to do?

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Speaker 1: Well, she has a civil suit against her. Still, I mean.

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Speaker 2: That's that's nothing. That's nothing. Better to go in a prison.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean and the cil.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we'll talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get to the civil ser laders. But let's

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Speaker 1: just go through some of some of the testimony and

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Speaker 1: some of the evidence in the retrial. Jennifer McCabe's testimony,

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Speaker 1: who was a friend of O'Keefe and Reed, who was

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Speaker 1: also in the home that night. She is a friend

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Speaker 1: of both of them, but she is also the sister

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Speaker 1: in law of Brian Albert, who owns the house. So

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Speaker 1: defense attorneys say that Jen McCabe's text messages show she

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Speaker 1: organized to cover up around how John O'Keefe wound up

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Speaker 1: unconscious in the snow outside of thirty four Fairview quote.

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Speaker 1: Carrie talked to the cops and kept it simple, McCabe

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Speaker 1: said in a text at about eight pm on January

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Speaker 1: twenty ninth, twenty twenty two, the day O'Keefe's body was

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Speaker 1: found outside her sister, Nicole Albert's home. Then Jen McCabe's

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Speaker 1: sister responded, we'll get more info tomorrow. Don't want a

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Speaker 1: text about it. In addition, Alan Jackson asked Jen McCabe

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Speaker 1: why she didn't ask her brother in law, Brian Albert,

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Speaker 1: a police officer, for help, given that he would have

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Speaker 1: had first responder training and lived in the home. McCabe

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Speaker 1: said she didn't think to go inside to get Brian

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Speaker 1: Albert find warm blankets, or to check whether the Alberts

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Speaker 1: were also in peril, that she was entirely focused on

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Speaker 1: helping O'Keefe. I thought this was really great when Alan

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Speaker 1: Jackson was cross examining her on the stand. He's cross

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Speaker 1: examining Jen McCabe. Her brother in law and sister live

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Speaker 1: inside the home where a dead man is found on

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Speaker 1: their lawn. She knows that her brother in law is

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Speaker 1: a cop and a first responder. She never goes to

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Speaker 1: the house. She never knocks on the door. She never

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Speaker 1: asked him to come outside to help to give CPR.

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Speaker 1: She never goes into the house to investigate and see

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Speaker 1: whether her brother in law and sister are okay or

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Speaker 1: if something happened inside the house that she needs to

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Speaker 1: check on. Why did she not do that?

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Speaker 2: Because the Boston Police Department taught her otherwise, Because that's

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Speaker 2: why it might not be the first body in this

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Speaker 2: lawn by the way, Well it's.

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Speaker 1: The first body on it. You mean, the first body

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Speaker 1: that anyone knows about on his lawn.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Brian Laughlin's testimony, he's the snowplow driver. I found his

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Speaker 1: testimony very calling, very credible, very compelling.

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Speaker 2: He was that guy like knew everything, Like he was

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Speaker 2: like a snowplow guy for thirty five years in that

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Speaker 2: neighborhood or something ridiculous like that. Well he well he

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Speaker 2: was in the neighborhood for thirty five years.

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Speaker 1: Remember, Yeah, I don't know how long he'd been a

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Speaker 1: snowplow driver. However, his testimony was on point.

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Speaker 2: It was concising, right, he knew the properties, he was,

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Speaker 2: he knew who lived there, he knew how long, Like

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Speaker 2: he was familiar with the neighborhood. It wasn't like he

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Speaker 2: was just going up and down roads and following a

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Speaker 2: map like he knew.

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Speaker 1: So, Brian Lawlan was a snowplow driver. He's called to

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Speaker 1: the stand to testify for the defense. Brian Lafren testified

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Speaker 1: he did not see a body in the yard at

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Speaker 1: thirty four Fairview early in the morning on January twenty ninth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Despite passing by the house multiple times,

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Speaker 1: Lawfren first drove the snowplow passed the home between two

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Speaker 1: forty and two forty five am. Though it was dark

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Speaker 1: and snowing hard, law Fren testified he could clearly see

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Speaker 1: the front door of the home. When asked what he

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Speaker 1: saw on the lawn by the flagpole, law Fren responded,

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Speaker 1: I saw nothing. Did you see a six foot one,

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Speaker 1: two hundred and sixteen pound man lying on that lawn.

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Speaker 1: Defense attorney David Eanetti asked, no, he said. I found

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Speaker 1: his testimony to be very credible because he talked about specifically.

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Speaker 1: He knew the route specifically, he knew the name of

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Speaker 1: the streets, he knew the times specifically, he knew exactly

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Speaker 1: what time he got there and checked out.

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Speaker 2: It was so natural, it was so like normal for

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Speaker 2: him to respond. He didn't have to think like this

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Speaker 2: was his routine.

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Speaker 1: And also, when you're talking about someone on a snowplow,

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Speaker 1: it's not in a regular car, like he's sitting up high.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, I don't know, it could be it was

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Speaker 2: it a pickup truck snowplow or was it?

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Speaker 1: No, they called it like the Frankenstein or something, because

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Speaker 1: it was like kind of an older model and it

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Speaker 1: was kind of put together.

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Speaker 2: I probably was just like an F two fifty or something.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know he was sitting up high,

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Speaker 1: and I know that it was what which is high

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Speaker 1: as high and it was very well lit. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: that he's consistently on guard and looking left to right

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Speaker 1: and scanning because he doesn't want to hit He's on

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Speaker 1: a big snowplowsy. He doesn't want to plow any bodies over,

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Speaker 1: So he has to be very very careful, and he

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Speaker 1: has to be very alert, and he has to be

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Speaker 1: very aware of his surroundings. So the fact that this

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Speaker 1: man did not see a body on the lawn between

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Speaker 1: two forty and two forty five am, when the prosecution

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Speaker 1: has made it clear that she hit him at twelve

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Speaker 1: thirty one, the body would have been there all right.

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Yuri Bucanik's testimony. He is a Massachusetts State Police officer.

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Speaker 1: He testified about the investigation and reads emergence as the

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Speaker 1: suspect in O'Keefe's death. However, the misconduct of previous state

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Speaker 1: trooper Michael Proctor, who was absent from the retrial loomed

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Speaker 1: heavily over his testimony. Now we all know Michael Proctor

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Speaker 1: was the investigator, the lead investigator in the first trial.

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Speaker 2: He was also trial.

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Speaker 1: Because the prosecution did not want to call him because

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Speaker 1: he was He was fired. He was let go from

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Speaker 1: the police department for how he bungled the first case,

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Speaker 1: how he didn't investigate it thoroughly. He had all those

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Speaker 1: text messages, you know, with his friends talking about Karen

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Speaker 1: Reid calling her, I don't know, what do you say?

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Speaker 1: He said she was hot, and then he was like

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Speaker 1: talking about looking for naked photos on her phone of

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Speaker 1: her and he said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, scholars work here and goodness.

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Speaker 1: So he was he was not brought back to testify.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure the prosecution was hoping that everyone just forgot

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Speaker 1: that he even exists.

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Speaker 2: Right. There was no former trial.

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Speaker 1: This is the first one. Michael Proctor had never heard

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Speaker 1: of him, though Buchanik. Through Buchanik, prosecutors tried to minimize

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Speaker 1: Proctor's influence and the investigation, while the defense held Proctor

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Speaker 1: up as the lead investigator. Buchanik said each homicide case

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Speaker 1: is a team effort. During cross examination, defense attorney Alan

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Speaker 1: Jackson tried to restore the sense of Proctor's control over

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Speaker 1: the case, showing Buchanik's investigative documents that carried Proctor's name

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Speaker 1: or signature. Still, Buchanik refused to call Proctor the lead investigator,

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Speaker 1: referring to him as the case officer. Clearly the reason

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Speaker 1: he was on the stand, as they're trying to take

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Speaker 1: away the power from Michael Proctor and his name all.

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Speaker 2: Over this case.

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Speaker 1: Trooper Nicholas Guarino's testimony. He is also a Massachusetts State

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Speaker 1: Police officer. Guarino testified for the Commonwealth that read called

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Speaker 1: O'Keefe more than fifty times and left eight voicemails between

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Speaker 1: the times. She said she dropped him off at thirty

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Speaker 1: four fair of View, and when she started searching for

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Speaker 1: him the next morning, all the calls went unanswered. Quote

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Speaker 1: You're an e fing pervert, she said in one voicemail

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Speaker 1: left at one ten am, per Guarino's testimony. Seven minutes later,

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Speaker 1: she left another, you're efing using me right now, you're

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Speaker 1: effing another girl. You're an e fing loser. F yourself.

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Speaker 1: At five twenty three am, she left her seventh voicemail, John,

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Speaker 1: where are you. You know when I listen to these voicemails,

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Speaker 1: because I've heard all of them, this is a woman

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Speaker 1: who had no idea that a man was laying dead

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Speaker 1: in a yard right or else. She's the best actress

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen because her voicemails are a woman who

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Speaker 1: is who has no idea where this man is, and

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Speaker 1: she thinks he's not coming home because he's having an

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Speaker 1: affair with somebody in that house, and she is legitimately

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Speaker 1: pissed off and wants to murder him.

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Speaker 2: I have a feeling you've made notes. I felt that

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Speaker 2: this is how I should leave my voicemails. I see

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Speaker 2: very convincing.

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Speaker 1: So for me when the prosecution is trying to use

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Speaker 1: these voicemails to show that they had a strained relationship

379
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Speaker 1: and that she you know, that she was so mad

380
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Speaker 1: that night that she repped her engine and like ran

381
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Speaker 1: over him. To me, I don't look at it that way.

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Speaker 1: To me, I see those voicemails and the calls as

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Speaker 1: someone who legitimately thinks that man is in the house

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Speaker 1: having an affair with another woman, and she thinks that he's

385
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Speaker 1: doing things and he's not coming home and she's mad.

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Speaker 2: This whole thing is ridiculous because if you were going

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Speaker 2: to commit a murder and you're going to run someone

388
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Speaker 2: over or do something like that, it would never ever

389
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Speaker 2: in a million years cross my mind to think leave

390
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Speaker 2: the dead body on the police officer's lawn. Yeah, because

391
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Speaker 2: they a real police officer, a team of police officers

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Speaker 2: would immediately start to preserve it, start to notify, start

393
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Speaker 2: to do something to forward the investigation, and not just

394
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Speaker 2: like stay in the house, will say that I know,

395
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Speaker 2: I know, I know you in your wildest dreams, we

396
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Speaker 2: ever thought like I'll leave this dead body on some

397
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Speaker 2: on this police officer's lawn and then like no one

398
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 2: will ever be able to figure out who killed him.

399
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Speaker 1: So you're saying, if she legitimately hit him, if she

400
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 1: was mad and she and he fell backwards and landed

401
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Speaker 1: in the snow and she drove.

402
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Speaker 2: Off, Well, I'm just saying, and it's very I don't

403
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,280
Speaker 2: know if it's irony, but to leave a dead body

404
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 2: on a police officer's lawn and there's a bunch of

405
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,880
Speaker 2: police officers there and they still can't figure out who

406
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 2: did it, that's that's pretty weird.

407
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 1: Well, that's why this case is so compelling.

408
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: The cops are shady.

409
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Speaker 1: Sorry, the cops are shady.

410
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Speaker 2: I retract my judgment of Karen Reid in our first.

411
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Speaker 1: Pod if you listen to our's Not Guilty, if you

412
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Speaker 1: listen to our very very first podcast we did on

413
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Speaker 1: Karen Reid. This is before Shane had ever knew known

414
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Speaker 1: anything about the case, never even heard Karen Reid's name,

415
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,119
Speaker 1: and I just did a basic cur three overview of

416
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Speaker 1: the incidents that night. He kept saying.

417
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Speaker 2: Guilty, guilty, guilty.

418
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Speaker 1: She's guilty, guilty, over and over and over.

419
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 2: Not guilty, but not guilty. Now the police department's guilty.

420
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 1: Now he is ware.

421
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 2: Are they going to prosecute the police officers?

422
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:18,680
Speaker 1: I doubt it.

423
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Speaker 2: Why they have just as much evidence on them as

424
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Speaker 2: they did her, which is nothing. That's what's so them

425
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Speaker 2: through the crowd.

426
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Speaker 1: That's what's so compelling yet completely sad about this case

427
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 1: is I don't think there'll ever be any justice for

428
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 1: John O'Keeffe or his mom, or the children. You know,

429
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 1: he was raising his niece and nephew because their parents

430
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 1: had died, and these children lost their mother and father

431
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Speaker 1: and have now lost their uncle who was raising them.

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Speaker 1: And you know, his mom sat in court every day,

433
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Speaker 1: his family's there and at the end of the day,

434
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Speaker 1: the jury got it right. She should have been acquitted.

435
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Speaker 1: But it's sad.

436
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Speaker 2: It is there's a lot of people. It's not just

437
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 2: he dies, which is sad enough as it is, but

438
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 2: all the people around him that are affected, and then

439
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 2: all the unanswered questions and just not knowing what happened

440
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 2: in his last moments of his life.

441
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: Nicholas Barrows, who is part of he's a sergeant for

442
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 1: the Dighton Police, was called by the defense to refute

443
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 1: the Commonwealth's narrative about Reid's tail light being broken when

444
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 1: it allegedly collided with O'Keefe. The defense has tried to

445
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 1: raise the specter of the tail light being tampered with

446
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: after police seized the vehicle and suggested its pieces were

447
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 1: planted at the scene. Well, if you remember, if you

448
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: go back, remember we talked about before when they initially

449
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:36,480
Speaker 1: did a search and they found John's body, there were

450
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: no pieces of the tail light found in that initial search.

451
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 2: Well that's what was declared.

452
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 1: Right. Then they went back I think that evening and

453
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 1: did another search and during that search, all of a

454
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,239
Speaker 1: sudden they found like forty two pieces.

455
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,919
Speaker 2: Of a tail light, which is an insane amount of

456
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 2: tail light right.

457
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: Borrows responded on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two, to

458
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: Reid's parents home in Dighton, Massachusetts, at Proctor's require to

459
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: help seize the vehicle. Reid went there after it was

460
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: confirmed that O'Keefe had died. In a report, Barrows noted

461
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: that there was damage to a tail light, but he

462
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 1: suggested on the stand it was relatively minor. There was

463
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 1: a piece missing, but it was not completely damaged. He

464
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: was shown a photograph of the tail light after it

465
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 1: was seized. Barrows said it did not reflect what he

466
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 1: saw that day. That tail light is completely smashed out.

467
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 2: He said, yeah, I remember thinking that that many pieces

468
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 2: sounds like it looks like someone smashed it with a hammer.

469
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,400
Speaker 1: I know I thought the same thing because I even

470
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 1: thought if she had backed into him with her tail light.

471
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: I feel like when a tail light hit a body,

472
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have smashed into so many tiny scens.

473
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: There's enough forensic files to know like it's usually just

474
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 2: a handful of pieces.

475
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: All right. So there was so many more things that

476
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: went on in this trial. It was completely interesting compelling.

477
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: I know people were glued to their screens every day

478
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: watching court TV. We clearly can't go through all of it,

479
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: but we're going to get to the closing statements. I

480
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: actually watched Alan Jackson's closing statement twice. It was about

481
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 1: an hour and a half long. Because when you talk

482
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: about closing statements, this is really where you have the

483
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: opportunity to This is the finale. This is where you

484
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: take everything and you want to persuade the jury. You

485
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 1: want them to see it. From your perspective, it's really

486
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: your last act. It's your last chance to convince them,

487
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 1: it's your last chance to build rapport with them. And

488
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: so I thought he did an excellent job.

489
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 2: How long was it?

490
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: It was an hour and a half.

491
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: You watch TV for three hours though, Well.

492
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: I didn't watch it back to back. I watched an

493
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: hour and a half and then the following night I

494
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: watched it again.

495
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 2: But let's be clear. You don't bring in new evidence.

496
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: You don't bring in new evidence.

497
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 2: You can only reiterate the evidence that was presented, and

498
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: you can't an attorney can't bring in their own opinions

499
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: to anything right, and they can't do things to make

500
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 2: what was it like make the something about making the

501
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: jurors feel a certain way, Like you can't ask about

502
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: their feelings or try to make them feel it's just evidence.

503
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me ask you a question. Can the

504
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: prosecution object during closing statements.

505
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: When the defense at I don't know if the if

506
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: the objection is the same formality, but if the defense

507
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 2: is bringing in new evidence, I mean definitely got to

508
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: stop that. Yeah, that's probably grounds for a mistrial.

509
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: Well, it's you can't object during closing arguments, but it

510
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: has to be to the level of like it's so

511
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: egregious it would sway the jury or it would be

512
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: harmful to the case. So there were no objections. During

513
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: his closing statement. Jackson went first, telling the jury three

514
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: times right away, there was no collision in the death

515
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: of John O'Keefe. This case was corrupted from the start.

516
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: It was corrupted by a legal investigator who's misconduct infected

517
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: every single part of this case from top to bottom.

518
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: Alluding to Michael Proctor.

519
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 2: Was did he have the position that she is she

520
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 2: did not commit the crime? Or did he have the

521
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: position was he emphasizing that there was not enough evidence?

522
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: No, so he his position was it was not her

523
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: that it was a cover up that he was beat

524
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: up in the house by these officers. The dog was

525
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: somehow involved and attacked him and then they drug his body.

526
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 2: Could have been in another way. Obviously, I would defer

527
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: to Alan Jackson to probably know what's best.

528
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 1: But the other way I would defer to Alan Jackson

529
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: on anything.

530
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for that.

531
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: I'd be like, stop talking.

532
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: I need to ask Alan Jackson stop talking. Butterfly, all right, whatever,

533
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: you know. I was trying to get at that. His

534
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: position was she didn't do it, not there's not enough evidence.

535
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: No, His position was that she did not do it,

536
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: and it was the corruptness that went on that evening.

537
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: It was a conspiracy.

538
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: It's a Communican to think about the police department. I'd

539
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: be nervous if I was in that area.

540
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm based just based upon the dms

541
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: I get on my Instagram account. People rallied around her

542
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: and think that this police department is completely corrupt. And

543
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: there's some other case with another woman I can't remember

544
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: the name that several people of dm ME that said

545
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: that basically kind of mirrors the same thing and has

546
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: to do with the Boston Police Department. I'll have to

547
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: look into that.

548
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: Wonderful.

549
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 1: If the Massachusetts State Police can't trust him, how can

550
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: you trust him with this investigation, with your verdict, and

551
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: with Karen Reid's life. Jackson said, the lead investigator in

552
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: a murder trial was never called to testify. Think about that.

553
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: That should stop you in your tracks. Wouldn't you want

554
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: to hear from Michael Proctor?

555
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: See, that was right, That's what I was thinking.

556
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 1: Wouldn't you want to hear from the lead investigator in

557
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: this case? Yes, yeah, that's what I said. The prosecution

558
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: did not call from them. Yes, they were hoping that

559
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: we just all forgot that.

560
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: Might be were dumped on some lawn somewhere.

561
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: Their investigator was corrupted from the start by bias and

562
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: personal loyalties. Jackson said, not a single medical expert called

563
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: by the defense or called by the commonwealth has testified

564
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: that John was hit by a car. Not one thing

565
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: about the irony, not one It's not just significant, it's

566
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: literally the most important point in the entire trial. He

567
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: made that point. He made it well. The medical examiners

568
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: that testified would never take the position that there was

569
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: an impact site from a vehicle. He had a contusion

570
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: on the back of his head, he had black eyes,

571
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: he had a cut over his eye, and his right

572
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: arm was scraped up and had puncture wounds. But no

573
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: one would testify that he was hit by a vehicle

574
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: because they said they.

575
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 2: There wasn't vehicle.

576
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: Remember mister Brennan's opening statement, he made some promises to you.

577
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: He said, this case is about the data. He's stressed

578
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: it over and over again. They've had three and a

579
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: half years to get this right. The Commonwealth has had

580
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: this case for three and a half years to get

581
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: it right. Jackson went on to talk about there being

582
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: no evidence John was hit by a car. This is

583
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: a central fact in the case. The only fact that

584
00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: matters is literally uncontested by every medical expert, uncontested, undispat

585
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: There is no evidence that John was hit by a car. None.

586
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 1: How much more reasonable doubt could there be.

587
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 2: There's doubt all around. There's even doubt with the police officers. Really,

588
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: there's not enough legal evidence for me to feel comfortable

589
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: saying they should be convicted.

590
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 1: You know, at the opening of his let me okay,

591
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 1: go ahead, what.

592
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: They did it? The police officers.

593
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: Do you think the police officers, Yeah, guilty. Let's just

594
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: go into just to have a little legal knowledge, little

595
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: legal background, what exactly beyond a reasonable doubt? And when

596
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: he does his opening statement, he tells them what beyond

597
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt means. And it's not just beyond a

598
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty are the phrases

599
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: used in legal context, particularly in criminal trials, to describe

600
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: the high standard of proof required for a conviction. I

601
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: don't know.

602
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: I don't get it. So what's the difference.

603
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: They're the same. It's beyond a reasonable doubt and to

604
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: a moral certainty.

605
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: Does and to a moral certainty actually add any other.

606
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: No, they it's the same standard. But I think it's

607
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: just another way to say it. But I think when

608
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: you add moral certainty in there, I feel like it

609
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: makes it more clear because reasonable doubt the word doubt.

610
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: It's like it's like you can shrug your shoulders like.

611
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: But when you talk about a moral certainty, I.

612
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: Feel good about this, exactly, feel good about sending him

613
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: or her to.

614
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: Jail exactly, Like when you lay your head down at

615
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: night to sleep knowing that that woman is going to

616
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: go to jail, are you okay with that? Are you

617
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: okay to a moral certainty that the decision you're making.

618
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 2: Well, I think the most complete apartment needs to hire

619
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: people with a moral certainty. You know, I have a

620
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: little beef with you. What you asked me the other

621
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: day what moral certainty meant? I said, I bet you.

622
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: It's just language that that jurisdiction uses. And now you're

623
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: and you said no, no, no, And now you're telling me

624
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: what it's really just language that they use to Well.

625
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: Because I looked it up, I don't because you're not

626
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: Alan Jackson.

627
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: No, So I had to go with Butterfly.

628
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: I was correct, you were correct at the time. All right,

629
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: it's still correct, okay. Alan Jackson goes on to say

630
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: in his in his closing statement, you have a man

631
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: lying dead in the yard, and here are the undisputed

632
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: facts that those officers were confronted with. Black eyes. Obviously,

633
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: black eyes are consistent with a fight. Bloody nose also

634
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: consistent with a fight, Bleeding from the face consistent with

635
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: a physical altercation, a cut over the right eye consistent

636
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: with a punch. No coat in the freezing cold, not

637
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: dressed for outside, dressed for inside, and one shoe on.

638
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: I wonder where the other shoe could be. I don't know,

639
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: maybe in the house thirty feet away. This was one

640
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: of my favorite parts of his closing statement was actually

641
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: when he said all of that. I thought that was

642
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: just he just really hit it home. That was a

643
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: home run to me when he said, look at this

644
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: body laying in this front yard. All of the physical

645
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: issues with his body are all consistent with a fight.

646
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: And also he has no coat on, and he's got

647
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: a missing shoe.

648
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: Where could they be?

649
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: Where could those things be? I don't know, maybe in

650
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: the house. And the fact that the house was never

651
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: considered a crime scene. It was never taped off, it

652
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: was never searched, it was never investigated. There was never

653
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: from the house.

654
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: That is that is negligence on the police. They fell

655
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: below that is standard duty of being.

656
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you're telling me a man died in a

657
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: lawn on it in front of a house, and his

658
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: shoes missing, and he doesn't have a coat on, and

659
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: he's beat up in the yard and no one investigated

660
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: inside the house. Is is there any blood inside the house?

661
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: There is there anything broken in the house, his shoes

662
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: in the house. I mean, it's unreal to me. I

663
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,959
Speaker 1: wonder where the other shoe could be. He says, I

664
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe in the house thirty feet away. And

665
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: then you find a broken and shattered drinking glass next

666
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: to him, the type of glass that you might find

667
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. Let me think about this in a

668
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: kitchen in a house feet away.

669
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: Wait, didn't she say she dropped him off with the cocktail?

670
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: You know?

671
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: She did say that they had like a roadie or something,

672
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: And so that was the other thing, Like, where did

673
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: the shard of glass come from? Was it from the

674
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: cocktail glass that he was carrying, or did he go

675
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: in the house and have a drink. This is why

676
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: this investigation is awful. Why do you sus I.

677
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 2: Could have gone inside the house and looked at the kitchen,

678
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: say you have the same signature drinking glasses that was

679
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: shout outside with the dead body, right, and look in

680
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: the shoe closet.

681
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: Look while I found the shoe closet right. As for

682
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: testimony that Reid said I hit him when she found

683
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: O'Keeffe the next morning, Jackson said. Sergeant Buchanik also testified

684
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: that the only statement Karen Reid made at the scene,

685
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: according to his conversations, with the first responders was could

686
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: I have hit him? Did I hit him? It wasn't

687
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: a confession, it was confusion. Agree with that.

688
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: And you know what that tracks with her OBD two

689
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: censor that said she went twenty four miles an hour

690
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: back way?

691
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: What was it? Say it again the two sensor, Yes,

692
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: Shane is our vehicular mechanic specialists.

693
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: No, but didn't it didn't They have evidence that she

694
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: went backwards twenty four miles an hour. So maybe she

695
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: was like, oh my gosh, I hit him, Like maybe

696
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: her first thought was he's on the lawn where I

697
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: left him with a drink and I sped off. Did

698
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: I hit him? I mean, those are probably some thoughts

699
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: that ran through ahead. I mean, her boyfriend's dead. No

700
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: one says anything that's reasonable when you find a dead body, right.

701
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: And she already didn't sleep the entire night because she

702
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: called him fifty times and left him seven voicemails yelling

703
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: at him and calling him an effing pervert. She thinks

704
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: he's having an affair with someone else. So this woman

705
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: clearly is outside of her mind. She has no idea

706
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: what's going on. She finds him lying in the grass,

707
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: dead on the lawn, and it makes sense to me

708
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: that she could have rambled something like did I hit who?

709
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: Who? What happened? All I know is you find it

710
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 2: dead by you don't say anything.

711
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, if she hit, if she did

712
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: hit him, the last thing she's going to say is

713
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: I hit him.

714
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: I hit him, I hit him. No, that's right.

715
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 1: I mean, give me a break.

716
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 2: A reasonable murderer wouldn't admit that. The person she'd be like, I.

717
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: Don't know how he got there. We are after the

718
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: truth in this courtroom. You're entitled to it, demand it,

719
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: Jackson said. Let your voice be heard, not in whispers,

720
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 1: but in truth. Let the community feel through your verdict

721
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: that justice cannot be bent and that it will not

722
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: be buried. Find Karen Reid not guilty, not guilty, not guilty,

723
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 1: and el.

724
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: Because three charges. Did she have three charges?

725
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: Well, she had three charges. And I feel like he

726
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: was playing on the I hit him, I hit him,

727
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: I hit him, is what they claimed. Tis so very cute.

728
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 2: It worked all right.

729
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 1: Hank Brennan, who was the special prosecutor, he does closing

730
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: prosecutor Hank Brennan addressed the jury saying about read quote

731
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: she was drunk, she hit him, then she left him

732
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: to die. Now the government doesn't have to prove that

733
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: she was drunk. It's either she's over the legal limit

734
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 1: point oh eight or she had enough alcohol to affect

735
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: her ability to operate a motor vehicle safely. You will

736
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: know she was far beyond the legal limit after the

737
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: retrograde analysis, almost two to three times the legal limit,

738
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: he says. In Alan Jackson's closing, he talks about the

739
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: tail light fragments and he claims, so the prosecution claims

740
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: that according to the data on the car whatever you

741
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: called it, that the impact happened at twelve thirty one.

742
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: Then when she left the scene, her WiFi connected at

743
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: John's house, because she left and went to John's house

744
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: and it connected at twelve thirty six. So if he

745
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: was a hit at twelve thirty one, And they claim

746
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: that the tail light was shattered all over the lawn,

747
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: and they also claimed that the bulb part was shattered

748
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: light bulb, the actual light bulb was shattered, then that

749
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: tail light would not have lit up later after the fact.

750
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: And Alan Jackson and you have.

751
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 2: To sorry, but you have to hit. That means he

752
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 2: had to have penetrated the tail light cover and then

753
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: as far into it as the tail light housing to

754
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: crack the bulb. Right, I mean, I'm just saying that's

755
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: a big impact. Maybe that happens a lot, but that's

756
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: that's a lot of impact, right, And sorry I interrupted.

757
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: No, It's okay, but no, and I agree with what

758
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: you're saying. And the whole point is then Alan Jackson

759
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: showed up on the screen to the jury images of

760
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: that tail light being lit up at five am in

761
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: the morning. And then I think and there was a

762
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: second time when it was well they captured like ring

763
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: footage of her of the car like being driven. Impact point.

764
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: I'm sure they addressed it, but then I would have

765
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: questions of like, well, are there three bulbs or there

766
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 2: are two and one was cracked, and I'm sure they

767
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,439
Speaker 2: already addressed that, But that is interesting that her light

768
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: was still functioning.

769
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: Right, I thought that was very interesting. And then there

770
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: was another thing I know we talked about the medical examiners.

771
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: Sorry I keep going backwards because there was so much

772
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 1: in his closing and this whole trial. But the other

773
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 1: thing that I found really compelling as well was that

774
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: when the medical examiners for the defense and the prosecution.

775
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: When you're talking about the injuries to his arm, if

776
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: his arm, which was supposed to be the impact site,

777
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: because that's where it was his right arm, and that's

778
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: where the scratches and the puncture wounds were. So you know,

779
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: the prosecution is claiming he was hit by a car,

780
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: her suv going backwards.

781
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 2: The car scratched him.

782
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: And punctured him looked like teethmarks. But the compelling part

783
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: to me is that these medical recreate, you know, people

784
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 1: recreate scenes, and hitting a car going backwards and hitting

785
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: an arm at twenty four miles per hour, the arm

786
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: would have been damaged, it would have been bruised, ligaments

787
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: would have been torn.

788
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: But I mean if it broken, scratches on my forearm

789
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: and then someone says, how'd you get that, and go,

790
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: I was hit by a car suv Yeah in the snow,

791
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 2: people would be like what, No, you didn't, right, I mean.

792
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: So the injuries on his arm were inconsistent with being

793
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: hit by an suv going backwards at twenty four miles

794
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 1: per hour. I mean twenty four miles per hour. Is

795
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: that's fast, Yeah, that's fast, that's Fastwards, that's fast. Backwards. Yeah,

796
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: and you hit an arm, your arm's gonna be bruis,

797
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: it's gonna be torn up. You're gonna have broken bones,

798
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: You're gonna have torn ligaments. And none of that was

799
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: consistent with the injuries on his arm. All right Back

800
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: to Hank Brennan. He proceeded to play a clip from

801
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: one of Reed's TV interviews for the jury, and when

802
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: she said I shouldn't have been driving. She did say that,

803
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: And I did watch this, and I remember thinking, I

804
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: don't know if that was so smart for her to

805
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: do that documentary. You know, the documentary I watched. It

806
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: was like five parts. It was called A Body in

807
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: the Snow, and it was basically following her first trial,

808
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: and she did a lot of interviews, and there were

809
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: several times when I thought, I don't know if she

810
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: should have said that, And they used.

811
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: Why why shouldn't she have said that?

812
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: Because she did say I drank too much, I was overserved,

813
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: I drank too much alcohol, I was drunk. I shouldn't

814
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: have been drunk.

815
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: I mean, she she says this memory.

816
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: She says things to me that I thought were self incriminating,

817
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: that she probably shouldn't have been saying.

818
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: Well, but maybe her thing is I'm being honest. I'm

819
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: telling you everything that happened. Yeah, I did drink, but

820
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: I didn't run them over.

821
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: Brennan so Hank. Brennan also emphasized that o'keefan Read's relationship

822
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: was not healthy and nearing. It's in. The relationship is

823
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: almost over. The tensions are simmering beneath the surface. They

824
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: are not getting along. So fast forward that night, after

825
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: the discord, after the arguing, they go out. What do

826
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: they do. They drink, and they drink a lot, Brennan explained.

827
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: He then focused on the moments when O'Keefe got out

828
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: of Reed's suv that night. It's the first time he

829
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: has moved since they got to the flagpole, and it

830
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: will be the last time he moves in his life,

831
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: Brennan said. Brennan then explained to the jury why reid

832
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: Is charge was second degree murder. Quote, it sounds ominous.

833
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: It is. It's a serious charge, second degree murder. When

834
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: most people think murder, they think shooting or stabbing somebody.

835
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: It's natural to think that. However, second degree murder is different.

836
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: I told you at the beginning of this case, I

837
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: told you that we were not going to suggest to

838
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: try to prove that Miss Reid intended to kill John O'Keefe.

839
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: That was never part of this case. We're not claiming

840
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: that I told you that we were not ever going

841
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: to prove that she even intended to hit him. We

842
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: never suggested we would try to prove that, and we

843
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: are not trying to prove that she intended to hit him.

844
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 1: Brennan said, there was an eyewitness, there was a guide,

845
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: and that eyewitness tells us that she knew, and that

846
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: eyewitness is Karen Reid herself. She tells you that she knew,

847
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: Brennan said, before playing another video clip from the Read

848
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: TV interview. Could I have hit him? Did I hit him?

849
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 1: Reid said in the video. I didn't think I hit him,

850
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: but could I have clipped him? Again? We talked about

851
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: this earlier, but I feel like you're right, she's being vulnerable,

852
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: she's being honest, and she's saying that's that was what

853
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: was going through my mind when I found him dead

854
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:07,479
Speaker 1: on the lawn.

855
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 2: Was that documentary done after her first trial?

856
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: It was done during during trial, during the preparation for

857
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 1: her first trial.

858
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so then I think I think it was.

859
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: I think it was prior to the trial, because I

860
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: remember there were lots of scenes of them and what

861
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: they called the war room, and that was when she

862
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: was meeting with Alan Jackson and Michael Yannetti and they

863
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: were going over It showed her getting arrested, it showed

864
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: her going to jail, and then it showed her being

865
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: on house arrest, being at home preparing for the first trial.

866
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: There were a lot of good idea Why would she

867
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: do a documentary like that? I wonder for attorneys that

868
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: thought that would get some public support or.

869
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: Well, that was something I was thinking about on my

870
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: way home before we recorded this podcast, and I thought,

871
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: I wonder why, Because Alan Jackson is brilliant, I wonder

872
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: why he thought it was a good idea. But then

873
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: I thought, what you just said, Maybe it was the

874
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: balance if you balance. Okay, So she maybe says some

875
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: things that don't look great, but she's just being herself.

876
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: Maybe the the public support that she garnered from that

877
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: was worth more than you know, if she misspoke or

878
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I don't really feel like,

879
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: I mean, is it self incrimination when she said that,

880
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: or is it her just being honest and authentic about

881
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: that night and saying I don't know did I hit him?

882
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: He's I found him dead on the lawn, so I

883
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, you could look at it from

884
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: a jury perspective that she's the more honest of the

885
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: two sides.

886
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's what a what a mess she

887
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: had more like document interviews and oh yeah she's gonna yeahs.

888
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: Do I follow her on Instagram?

889
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: Following I don't you know.

890
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: I I don't even follow Alan Jackson. I don't know

891
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: how that happened.

892
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: But you like him?

893
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: I just I feel like he's I. I my heroes

894
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: like other people might think, like rock stars or like

895
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: actors are their heroes minds like Alan Jackson, Brian friedran, Yeah,

896
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: like those are the people that I like are like, huh,

897
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 1: I would fan girl over Alan Jackson, but not like

898
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt, but Alan Jackson.

899
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 2: Yes, Brett, bet you a cameo from Brian and Jackson?

900
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: Do you think do you think they're on cameo? They

901
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: might be after this for people like you maybe. Brennan

902
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: also addressed one of Jackson's major points on Friday, why

903
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: Trooper Proctor didn't take the stand in his trial. After

904
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: he testified in the first one, he was terminated. He

905
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: said a penalty. He was held responsible for what he did.

906
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: He should have been We don't We don't need Trooper

907
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: Proctor in this case. We don't need Trooper Proctor to

908
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Brennan concluded his

909
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: argument by showing the jury a photo of John O'Keeffe.

910
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: He is not an it. John O'Keeffe is not a body.

911
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: John O'Keefe was not a buffalo on a prairie. John

912
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: O'Keeffe was a per and he was murdered by Karen Reid. Clearly,

913
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: all the prosecution has is to play to the jury's heart.

914
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: And say this crossing the that they don't look at

915
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: the evidence and fire guilty because she don't.

916
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: Forget that this is a man, this is a human,

917
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: So do the right thing and find her guilty.

918
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: Well, well, she's also a woman and a human. I mean,

919
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: you can't throw them to jail. What about you mentioned earlier,

920
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 2: like twelve thirty one is when they blew, the impact

921
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 2: took place in twelve thirty six is when she hit

922
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: the WiFi.

923
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: Is when she connected to John's five.

924
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: Minutes, how far a part of the homes Okay, ye,

925
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: so that tracks that makes sense?

926
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: Then, yeah it does. But what what happened though, is

927
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: when they clocked her, or they they claim that she

928
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: hit him at twelve thirty one. The prosecution really buried

929
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: themselves for what does it paint yourself into a corner

930
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: when you do something like that. His phone was still

931
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: warm at twelve thirty one, as opposed to like it

932
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: wasn't laying in the snow. I believe they said it

933
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: only takes fifteen minutes for your phone to go from

934
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: warm to like if it's in freezing temperatures to where

935
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: it shuts off. It's like a very small window of time.

936
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 1: So if his body had been laying in the snow

937
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: starting at twelve thirty one, and she phone would have

938
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: shut off.

939
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 2: I don't know. There's so many holes in this thing.

940
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 1: I know.

941
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: It's unbelievable that they even tried her. It's embarrassing. It's

942
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 2: a waste of everyone's time and money, it is.

943
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: And it's a first of all, to think of what

944
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: she had to go through, the money she has to

945
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: spend to defend herself. The fact, well I know she

946
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: had a I've read well or something she did, and

947
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people supported her because they

948
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: were so you know, she had the public behind her

949
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: so much. But she also had to I read like

950
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: she cashed out her four oh one. She doesn't work,

951
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: you know.

952
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 2: She also I think she mortgaged.

953
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: I think she either sold her house or she had

954
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 1: to get a second mortgage on her house. I mean,

955
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: she's completely financially depleted herself to have to defend herself

956
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: in this.

957
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 2: The moral of the story. Shouldn't drink, Okay, that's that's

958
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 2: what I shouldn't overdrink.

959
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if she here's the thing though, her If

960
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: if he was murdered inside the house and then drug

961
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 1: out onto the lawn, it makes no difference whether she

962
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: drank or not.

963
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: Well, she might have a better memory, she might be

964
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: more credible, She might not have ran them over. Not

965
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 2: just kid, I don't know. There's a lot of things

966
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 2: gonna happen if she was, you know not.

967
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: I mean, so you're saying if she was, if she

968
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: did not drink at all, and she was completely clear

969
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: of mind, she might have seen him actually go into

970
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: the house and had to.

971
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 2: Clear I mean, I'm just making a general statement that is,

972
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: I mean she drink and drove and I just don't

973
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: I don't fin any forgiveness in that. So now she's

974
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: in a mess.

975
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. But again the alternative argument is did the drinking

976
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: make any difference?

977
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: No, the cops did it. It should be called what

978
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: was that documentary?

979
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: Body in the snow?

980
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 2: Should be a body drug out and dumped in the

981
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 2: snow by police officers on their lawn. Yes, all right.

982
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: So then after they give their closing statements the jury

983
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: to deliberations, there was an amended verdict slip. Judge Beverly Canone.

984
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: Everybody calls her aunt bev on TikTok. She does not

985
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: have a large fan base at all, gave jurors a

986
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: revised verdict slipt on Tuesday afternoon, following confusion from the

987
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: panel about the first slip they were given, which prompted

988
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: a question to be sent to the judge. The slip

989
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: concerns the second of three charges Reid faces in the

990
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: death of John O'Keefe, manslaughter while operating under the influence.

991
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: That charge, at the request of Reid's defense, carries a

992
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: number of lesser included counts for which the jury could

993
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: either convict or acquit Read. The new slip, distributed to

994
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 1: the media Wednesday morning, contains clarifying language for the jury,

995
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: telling the four person to quote, stop and sign the

996
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: verdict slip end quote after each lesser included charge. If

997
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,959
Speaker 1: they find Read guilty, jurors can convict her of any

998
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: of the lesser included charges or acquit her of each charge,

999
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: including manslaughter. Though I believe what the jurors were asking

1000
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: so they needed an amended jury slip was to break

1001
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: it down better. They didn't understand if like she was

1002
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: acquitted of some of the higher charges and maybe not

1003
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: the lesser charges, if that was still considered a hung jury,

1004
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: so they needed more clarifying.

1005
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 2: I see basic jury instructions on the charges and.

1006
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I know that they did come back

1007
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 1: and ask if she's acquitted of the two higher charges

1008
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: but not the third charge, would that still be considered

1009
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: a hut or a mistrial? And then she said she

1010
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 1: couldn't answer that because it was a theoretical question.

1011
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 2: Because then because I'm guessing, but then the judge thing,

1012
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: and I can't answer that question because if I give

1013
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: you an answer that might sway you exactly, like oh,

1014
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,959
Speaker 2: you know, well, it'll be a hung trial or hung jury,

1015
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,879
Speaker 2: and we don't want that again, so we'll find her guilty, yeah,

1016
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: or the other way around.

1017
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: So she couldn't answer that anyway, all right, So we

1018
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: get a verdict. Finally, that happened just like two hours ago.

1019
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,919
Speaker 1: After more than thirty days of testimony and four days

1020
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: of deliberation, jury found read not guilty of second degree

1021
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 1: murder manslaughter while operating a motor vehicle under the influence

1022
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: and leaving the scene of a collision resulting in death.

1023
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 1: But she was found guilty of a very lesser offensive,

1024
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: operating a vehicle under the influence with a blood alcohol

1025
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 1: level of zero point eight percent or greater. She is

1026
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: sentenced to a year of probation. Basically, it was a

1027
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: huge win for her.

1028
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: Was that was that based on just her testimony that

1029
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 2: she was drunk?

1030
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: No, they had they had ad they.

1031
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 2: Test her the next morning or something.

1032
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: I don't I believe so, but they they did a whole.

1033
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: Of blood change hear to what she was up against.

1034
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, She's like, I'll take I'll take a I'll

1035
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: take a DUI or this was called a OUI operating

1036
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: under influence. I mean she'll do a year of probation

1037
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: and then she gets to go on with her life. However,

1038
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: there still is a pending civil suit with the o

1039
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 1: Key family against her for run. Actually they did, and

1040
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: they actually stayed the suit while she was doing the

1041
00:49:57,719 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: criminal trial.

1042
00:49:58,520 --> 00:49:59,919
Speaker 2: They see the freaking cops too.

1043
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: Well, here's my question, and let's talk about it.

1044
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: It was dead on your lawn, You didn't do anything,

1045
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 2: and you destroyed all the evidence in your house. Give

1046
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: me a shoeback.

1047
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 1: So giving my shoeback. So, they filed a civil suit

1048
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 1: against her before the second retrial for wrongful death. Then

1049
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: that suit was stayed while she was doing her criminal

1050
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: trial because she couldn't do the civil trial and the

1051
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 1: criminal trial. Plus you can't do a civil trial and

1052
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 1: then they take your testimony from the civil trial used

1053
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: against you in your criminal trial anyway, so that was stayed.

1054
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 1: Now that her criminal trial is over, the civil trial

1055
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: will proceed. But here's my question. If you are John

1056
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: O'Keefe's family, and you're the ones that filed the civil

1057
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: suit before this latest retrial, and you sat in court

1058
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: every single day and you listened to all the evidence

1059
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: and the testimony, and then the jury comes back with

1060
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: their decision that she's not guilty, and the entire world

1061
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 1: that's watching this is saying she's not guilty. Free Karen Rea.

1062
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: How do you continue on with the civil suit for

1063
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: wrongful death at this point? Are you not completely pissed

1064
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: with the system? How do you go forward with the

1065
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: civil suit against Karen Reid? I feel like they need

1066
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: to withdraw the suit.

1067
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 2: You mean they should? They should have They should understand

1068
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 2: that she didn't do it. Is that what you're saying.

1069
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm saying. They sat in court every single.

1070
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: Ya, But are you suggesting that they should be based

1071
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 2: on everything they saw on witness and participated in and

1072
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 2: all that took place, they should be of the position of, Okay,

1073
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 2: I guess she didn't do it, so we don't want

1074
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 2: to sue her. Is that what you mean?

1075
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm saying.

1076
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 2: And she doesn't have any money anyway, She's spent it all.

1077
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: On Yeah, I'm saying, how do you go forward with

1078
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 1: this wrongful death suit against Karen Reid when you sat

1079
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: in court every day and you heard all of that.

1080
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 2: Let's be clear for listeners, the standard in a civil

1081
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 2: suit to find a verdict is different than the standard

1082
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 2: and a criminal it is lesser.

1083
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it is a preponderance of the evidence.

1084
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: Which means just tipping the scale.

1085
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: It's a fifty one percent.

1086
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,879
Speaker 2: So it had had Karen been found guilty, the civil

1087
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 2: suit would be much easier because you're like, she's already guilty,

1088
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: it would be. But now she's not guilty, so now

1089
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 2: they have to prove beyond a preponminence of the Evans

1090
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 2: or whatever tip the scale, have to.

1091
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,719
Speaker 1: Tip the scale. Yeah, but here's my point. I feel

1092
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: like it's just a moral issue at this point, Like

1093
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: you sat in court and you heard all this testimony

1094
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: about how corrupt this police department was, how no one

1095
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: investigated the house, how the Brian Albert and Brian Higgins

1096
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: both got rid of their cell phones.

1097
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 2: And their dogs and the dog and didn't they like

1098
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 2: like redo the flooring.

1099
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 1: And they did it, Yes, And the house was sold

1100
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: and the ring footage across the street was deleted or

1101
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: wasn't available, and nobody she's.

1102
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 2: Looking she's she is looking the wrong way. They're looking

1103
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: the wrong way by going after Karen. I know that,

1104
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 2: but sometimes it's just a money grab and sometimes it's

1105
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: just a stubbornness of you know, they want someone to

1106
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 2: be held accountable.

1107
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: And I can get that, well, I understand that, but

1108
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: I'm just saying they filed it before the retrial. So

1109
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: I'm saying, after sitting in court for thirty days and

1110
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: watching all this testimony, I feel like they need to

1111
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: withdraw the civil suit and go after the real perpetrators here,

1112
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,919
Speaker 1: the corruption the police department, Like file a civil suit

1113
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: against them. There's something shady and the fauryus that happened

1114
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: in the house.

1115
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 2: That who's actually suing.

1116
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: It's John o'cue's family. It's his mom and oh, his

1117
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: immediate family, his family.

1118
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's an unfortunate thing. It doesn't

1119
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 2: mean that you know, they're not suffering by his loss,

1120
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 2: But I don't know. What's done is done. Man. Sometimes

1121
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 2: you just gotta he just gotta move on. It sucks,

1122
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: But the kids are the one that they're gonna suffer

1123
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 2: the most, those kids that he was taking care of.

1124
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the end of the day, I think, to me,

1125
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: I feel as if this was one of the most interesting, compelling, infuriating,

1126
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: but fascinating legal.

1127
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 2: Cases and confusing and unclear.

1128
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: But look, we follow Ditty too, and Diddy is huge,

1129
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: and it's in the media and everybody talks about it

1130
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: ezy one, but I don't find it.

1131
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: No, it's like going to talk about another freak off

1132
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: and another.

1133
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,959
Speaker 1: Freak off, Okay, another witness. It's kind of the same

1134
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: pattern of behavior. Everybody looked the other way for years

1135
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: and years.

1136
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: But he's you know, he abuses his power, he buys people.

1137
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 2: I get it. He beats people and he pays him.

1138
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:33,880
Speaker 2: He's a jerk. But it's it's repeating. I mean, this

1139
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 2: is this requires you to think and try to figure

1140
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: out what the heck is going on. Yeah, and that's

1141
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: why it's so puzzle pity diddy what's his name?

1142
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: Pity, it's pity.

1143
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: I pity that whatever it probably will be next who

1144
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 2: knows he's going to be no as soon he's going

1145
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 2: to be known by a cell number.

1146
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. But again back to Karen Reid, I feel like

1147
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: this case should be studied in law school. It is

1148
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: why because it is the epitome of reasonable doubt. Like,

1149
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: this case is so fascinating.

1150
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: It should be studied by the police department and then

1151
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 2: they know and then they should be telling their police officer.

1152
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

1153
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, there should be some protocol for finding a dead

1154
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 2: body on your lawn. Yep, that's that's what I'm saying.

1155
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: I'm just saying this is a fascinating case because.

1156
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 2: Every snowplower should have cameras on their cars.

1157
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: They should have dash cam dash cams. Yeah, I mean

1158
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 1: that would have solved it right there, if he had

1159
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 1: a dash cam on that snowplow.

1160
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 2: Case close right one way or another?

1161
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I mean either there was a body there

1162
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 1: or there wasn't. And if there wasn't a body there,

1163
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 1: the bodies in the house.

1164
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 2: No, dash cams are a big deal. You need a

1165
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: dash cam. I need a dash can You need a

1166
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: dash cam?

1167
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: Who got pulled over today? Because it wasn't me.

1168
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 2: Lots of people got pulled over.

1169
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: You got pulled over today?

1170
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 2: All right? Anything wrong?

1171
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 1: All right? Thank you for listening.

1172
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,160
Speaker 2: To our breakdown? Or are we done with Karen re Yeah?

1173
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 2: I follow the civil suit.

1174
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I don't have anything else to say about.

1175
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 2: The civil suit. I know. But are we going to

1176
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:06,439
Speaker 2: follow the civil suit?

1177
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we'll follow the civil suit. But I mean

1178
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm hoping the civil suit gets dropped.

1179
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 2: It'll it'll get dropped. You think or it'll it'll be

1180
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 2: a short I don't know, there's none. Well, I don't

1181
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 2: know that this Actually, this will be very interesting assuming

1182
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 2: they don't drop it. If they drop it, okay, if

1183
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: they don't drop it and they proceed with a trial,

1184
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 2: it'd be very interesting because you have two different standards

1185
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 2: on a very questionable case. And so it'll be interesting

1186
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,320
Speaker 2: to know if it's like not guilty in a criminal standard,

1187
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 2: but guilty or liable in a civil standard. So that'd

1188
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 2: be really interesting.

1189
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also just to draw a parallel, O. J.

1190
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: Simpson was acquitted and yeah, that's right, that's right, but

1191
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 1: he was found guilty in a civil suit right after

1192
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:48,760
Speaker 1: the fact.

1193
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 2: Well, and but the difference with him was the public

1194
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 2: knew he was guilty. Come on, dude, the guy.

1195
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: Was all right. Thank you guys for listening to legally Brunette.

1196
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,320
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. And as always I appreciate when you, guys,

1197
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: DM you tell us how much you like it, you

1198
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: give me feedback, feedback, suggestions on cases that you find interesting. Actually,

1199
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: I'm reading the book on the Memphis three because someone

1200
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: had suggested that to me, and I feel like that's

1201
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: another case we should talk about. At some point. So

1202
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: thank you for all of the feedback. We truly appreciate it.

1203
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: Thank you