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Speaker 1: Flashpoint is released weekly and brought to you absolutely free,

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Speaker 1: but for ad free listening, early access and exclusive bonuses,

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Speaker 1: subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus dot com or on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome everyone to Inside Tenderfoot TV. Today we're

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Speaker 2: going inside Flashpoint, our latest show that takes an investigative

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Speaker 2: look at the narratives of the nineteen ninety six Olympic

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Speaker 2: bombing and the subsequent bombings in Atlanta, Georgia. There are

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Speaker 2: a lot of themes in this story that are still

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Speaker 2: very precient. Today I'm Laura from the Tenderfoot team, and

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Speaker 2: today I'm talking to host and co creator Cole Lakassio

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Speaker 2: and executive producer and co creator Doug Mattica to hear

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Speaker 2: about their experiences digging into such an intense story with

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Speaker 2: some seriously personal strings attached. Let's get into it.

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Speaker 3: Today.

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting down with col A Cassio and Doug Matica,

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Speaker 2: the producers and hosts of Flashpoint, and I'm really excited

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Speaker 2: to get into it. Welcome Cole and Doug. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for being here.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Dor, thanks for having us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this show just wrapped up, which means that

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Speaker 2: everything is very fresh, and I kind of wanted to

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Speaker 2: start a little bit at the beginning of things before

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Speaker 2: getting into some of the more kind of hard hitting

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Speaker 2: topics of the show and your experience with it. Can

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Speaker 2: both of you just give a little bit of an

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Speaker 2: overview to our listeners of how you got involved in

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Speaker 2: podcasting in the first place, a little bit of your

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Speaker 2: history within this medium, and why you chose it for storytelling.

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Speaker 1: I got into it through Doug. Actually, I was in

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Speaker 1: college and I was working on in indie film over

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Speaker 1: the summer, is like an internship in between my junior

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Speaker 1: and senior year of college. I met Doug that way.

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Speaker 1: He was a pretty around a film when I was

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Speaker 1: wrapping up college. I did radio all during school and

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Speaker 1: I loved it, but I was trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: a way to not have a typical journalism job after

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Speaker 1: I got out of college, and I'm glad I worked

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Speaker 1: on that film. I never considered film or storytelling like

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Speaker 1: that in any capacity until I met Doug, and so

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Speaker 1: I hit him up after college, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: went the typical like applying for jobs at like you know,

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Speaker 1: local papers and like ESPN and that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: but they were all very entry level and not very

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Speaker 1: creatively rewarding. I hit up Doug and asked him what

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Speaker 1: he was doing, and he had just started a podcast company,

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Speaker 1: so naturally it was a good fit. So I moved

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Speaker 1: out to LA.

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Speaker 3: Well, at first I told him, don't do it, just

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Speaker 3: like my mentor told me, don't get in film. It's

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Speaker 3: the worst thing you can do. Kid, don't do it.

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Speaker 2: I was told that when I was studying film too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But you know, when you got it in your head

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Speaker 3: and you need to creative stuff, you just do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And when was do you mind have asked? When? This was?

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Speaker 2: Just for a sense of kind of what the world

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Speaker 2: of podcasting was at that time, since it's this was grown.

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Speaker 1: I hit him up first in May of twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: That's where I graduated.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so established industry, but it's grown, right.

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Speaker 1: And I moved out to Los Angeles in July of

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. And you know, honestly, i'd never really listened

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Speaker 1: to a long form narrative podcast of any kind. My

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Speaker 1: first introduction to it, as I'm sure is the case

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Speaker 1: for many people, was Cereal Doug. And Doug gave me

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Speaker 1: basically a homework listening list and it included Cereal and

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Speaker 1: included Shitdown. I can't there were a few more, but

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Speaker 1: I started with Cereal and s Town Yeah, and kind

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Speaker 1: of just took off from there. It's such an awesome

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Speaker 1: medium to be able to craft the story you want

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Speaker 1: to tell without having to worry about visuals, which was

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Speaker 1: always actually my least favorite part of film. Were the

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Speaker 1: visuals important, but being able to really tap into and

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Speaker 1: take hold of the storytelling aspect of it was very

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Speaker 1: intriguing to me. So I'd moved out to La. The

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Speaker 1: very first thing I got to LA, I went to

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Speaker 1: the office and met up with him. We caught up

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Speaker 1: and he brought me inside and on his computer he

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Speaker 1: had an article about Eric Rudolf from Outside magazine and

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Speaker 1: I was like, why are you reading that? And he said,

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Speaker 1: do you know about this? Like you're from Atlanta, Like

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you know about Eric Rudolf. And the article

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Speaker 1: was talking about how it was mostly focused on the

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Speaker 1: man hunt and how he was able to sleep in

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Speaker 1: the woods. I think the title of it was Eric

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Speaker 1: Rudolf Slept Here. And he was blown away by it.

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Speaker 1: And Doug can talk about this more on what fascinated

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Speaker 1: him about it, but when I saw that article, I said, well,

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Speaker 1: I have a connection Eric Rudolf, and I told him

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Speaker 1: my story in my birth story, and the kind took

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Speaker 1: off from there. He actually came up with our original

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Speaker 1: title for the show on the spot right after I

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Speaker 1: told him that story.

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Speaker 2: Doug, were you looking were you looking into building a

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Speaker 2: podcast around his story kind of in your head already

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Speaker 2: before you talked to Cole about his connection to it?

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Speaker 3: Totally? I thought his story was and I think Cole

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Speaker 3: mentions this very briefly in one of the apps, but

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Speaker 3: like Eric's story, his timeline is kind of like very

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Speaker 3: synchronous with the timeline of the rise of the far right,

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Speaker 3: the religious right domestically. And I thought that was interesting

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Speaker 3: because he, you know, spoused a lot of those views

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Speaker 3: quite publicly, and he's been pretty prolific from prison. I

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Speaker 3: don't recommend you read his work, but he he's got

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Speaker 3: time on his hands, for sure, but he's also got

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Speaker 3: clarity of vision. But I was really interested in that

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Speaker 3: the sort of cultural historical piece, but also I was

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Speaker 3: amazed that somebody could hide for five years, How do

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Speaker 3: you do that? And so you know, this outside magazine

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Speaker 3: piece was fascinating. It really just got into the topography

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Speaker 3: of the region, and so I was what I was

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Speaker 3: doing is poking on trying to find an angle, like

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Speaker 3: what's the angle? How do I tell this terrorist story

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Speaker 3: and use it to give a broader cultural overview? But

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Speaker 3: what's the angle? Like anybody can tell the story? And

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Speaker 3: Jimmy Shoeshine here walks into my office. I mean, shit,

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Speaker 3: you not within an hour of And we had worked

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Speaker 3: together for two months NonStop in production, like we were

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Speaker 3: on set every day, so like this never came up.

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Speaker 3: Why would it? But yeah, he walks into my office

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Speaker 3: sees this, and he's like, oh, I have a story,

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Speaker 3: and I think he actually stepped outside.

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Speaker 1: For a second.

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Speaker 3: He's like, I want to confirm a couple of things.

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Speaker 3: Hold on, And he went outside and he made a

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Speaker 3: call and talked to Leah, his mom, and confirmed a

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Speaker 3: couple of things before he dropped the bomb. And then

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Speaker 3: he dropped it, and I was like, whoa. And it

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Speaker 3: just so happened that I was in the process of

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Speaker 3: setting up my first podcast, Whistleblower, with Tenderfoot. At the time,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't set up yet, but we were getting close,

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Speaker 3: and it was in production on Whistleblower that at a

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Speaker 3: certain point we were I think, you know, midway through

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Speaker 3: and in Atlanta, Cole's helping on that, he's editing on that,

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Speaker 3: and I Donald just at lunch one day, I was like,

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Speaker 3: what else you got? What are you working on? And

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Speaker 3: I gave him like a two sentence pitch on this

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Speaker 3: and he was like, I'll take that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's an incredibly compelling You have an incredibly

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Speaker 2: compelling position within I guess the broader narrative of Eric

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Speaker 2: Rudolph and the extremism that is growing. Cole, when did

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Speaker 2: you first find out about your birth story and your

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Speaker 2: relationship to Eric Rudolf? Because you talk in the show

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Speaker 2: about always being fascinated with this bombing And forgive me

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Speaker 2: because I don't remember if you had actually already been

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Speaker 2: interested in that as a young person and then found

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Speaker 2: out because you mentioned I think it was high school

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Speaker 2: or college that she told you. So were you interested

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Speaker 2: in this before you actually knew your connection to it

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Speaker 2: and then it grew or was it something that grew

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Speaker 2: out of finding out your birth story.

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Speaker 1: I knew about Eric Rudolf pretty early on in my life,

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Speaker 1: because I think when you grow up in Atlanta, you

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Speaker 1: know about that story, right, you know more than most would.

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Speaker 1: I think most people only know typically when you tell

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Speaker 1: them about the Olympic Park bombing, they know Richard Jewell,

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Speaker 1: they don't really know the name Eric Rudolf. But I

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Speaker 1: think for most people who have lived in Atlanta, you

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Speaker 1: know through the nineties, they're going to know about the

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Speaker 1: man hunt, They're going to know about the additional bombings.

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Speaker 1: So I kind of grew up with that story in

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Speaker 1: the back of my mind, just knowing like this is

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Speaker 1: a crazy story. I knew about my birth story parts

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Speaker 1: of it. I knew about my biological father. I knew

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Speaker 1: about the fact that he just wasn't part of our

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Speaker 1: lives past the age of like two. For me, it

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Speaker 1: was not a good situation. Thankfully, my mom got out

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Speaker 1: of it. She had a lot of support from her

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Speaker 1: parents and my grandparents. But I did not know about

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Speaker 1: the Eric Rudolf part of it until high school. It

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Speaker 1: was something that I mean, my mom's a very open person.

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Speaker 1: She's an open book, but you have to ask her

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Speaker 1: certain things to get those pieces of her life, and

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Speaker 1: I think it's something that she wasn't trying to keep

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Speaker 1: from me. She told me everything else. It's just something

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Speaker 1: that she put away, and I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: really important to her after she made the decision to

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Speaker 1: keep me. I think trauma is a very powerful thing.

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Speaker 1: I think it does a lot to memories. I think

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Speaker 1: that played into that. So when I heard that part

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Speaker 1: of the story and I was interested in going this

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Speaker 1: route of journalism, I kind of always kept it up here,

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Speaker 1: you know, to hopefully one day be able to tell

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Speaker 1: that story. But in a way that doesn't come across

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Speaker 1: as supportive of his actions, right, because I've always been

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Speaker 1: a pro choice person as long as I've been able

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Speaker 1: to understand what that means. So I certainly didn't want

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Speaker 1: people to get the wrong idea about it. But it

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Speaker 1: was always there and I always wanted to tell that story.

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Speaker 1: I just need to find the right way to tell it.

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Speaker 1: And thankfully linking up a Doug and then Tenderfoot, we

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Speaker 1: were able to do that. Right.

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Speaker 3: Do you mean to run with the old title a

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Speaker 3: little bit here?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? That I think? Is it?

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Speaker 3: So? Yeah? Cool was talking about trying to find the

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Speaker 3: right way to tell the story, and originally we had

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Speaker 3: intended to and just for like two years in our

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Speaker 3: mind and our conceptualization of an ideation process. This podcast

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Speaker 3: was called Eric Rudolf Saved My life, not mine his,

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Speaker 3: but but and on the one hand, we wanted to

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Speaker 3: embrace everything about the paradoxical nature of this story. Yes,

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Speaker 3: Eric Wrudo was a monster. Yes, Cole doesn't exist unless

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Speaker 3: his monstrous actions save his life. But to start off

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Speaker 3: on that, the first foot forward being he saved me.

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Speaker 3: And there was always something that felt off about that.

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Speaker 3: But it was also cool because, well, but we want

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Speaker 3: to we don't want people to be able to avoid

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Speaker 3: the paradoxical moment here. We really want people to have

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Speaker 3: to hold these you know, contradictory truths. Yet it was

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Speaker 3: a bit it was a bridge too far at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day. I mean, Alex was a was

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Speaker 3: a really strong and sound voice in figuring that out

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Speaker 3: with us, with the whole process for us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and just for contact, Alex Bespa said, is one

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Speaker 2: of the other executive producers on the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't want to change it. I didn't want

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Speaker 1: that didn't either, And we after we had that initial

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Speaker 1: conversation with Donald and Alex about it, we kind of

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Speaker 1: digging our feet in a little bit, like being a

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Speaker 1: little stubborn, and we started talking about other potential titles,

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Speaker 1: and nothing was coming up even close to that title

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Speaker 1: in our minds, and how strong that title was. When

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Speaker 1: I told people about the story prior to its release

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Speaker 1: and I used that title, they said, Wow, that is

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Speaker 1: such an amazing title. Do not change that title to

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Speaker 1: get you attention. But those were very specific types of

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Speaker 1: people that were telling me that too. Those were people

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Speaker 1: that were more in line with our thinking and understanding

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Speaker 1: the type of story we wanted to tell. Those were

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Speaker 1: not people who were coming into it cold or seeing

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Speaker 1: the title come up on their podcast feed for the

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Speaker 1: first time. You know, so, I think it needs context,

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Speaker 1: and when you're making a podcast, you don't always have

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Speaker 1: that opportunity to vibe context before people listen to it.

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Speaker 2: Right, I think from my perspective this hearing this, this

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Speaker 2: is the first time I've heard the other titles, and

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Speaker 2: option I do kind of get that there's this The

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Speaker 2: whole show is a paradox. The whole subject is a paradox.

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Speaker 2: Your relation to it is so paradoxical. And knowing, like

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Speaker 2: you said, Doug, that Eric's continued to publish from prison,

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Speaker 2: he is this kind of champion within this specific community,

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Speaker 2: you may have ended up with a lot of people

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Speaker 2: very non paradoxically clicking through right and listening to the

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Speaker 2: show with very different like it'd be great to get

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Speaker 2: people of different viewpoints listening to it, but I could

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Speaker 2: see how that might have been one of the concerns, right,

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Speaker 2: is that the sort of I don't want to say ironic,

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Speaker 2: but like slightly ironic nature that that title has, Like

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Speaker 2: you're saying, you can't give any context around it for

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Speaker 2: that first introduction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we have a lot of people listening

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Speaker 3: that are at the end of the day, when they

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Speaker 3: get to the end, they're pissed off because a lot

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Speaker 3: of maybe assumptions or beliefs or values that they think

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Speaker 3: they need to hold on to are challenged maybe in

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Speaker 3: a way they're not comfortable with. We're getting some of

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Speaker 3: that anyways, which is fine. Another challenge, just on the

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Speaker 3: creative side, was if that's the title, are we giving

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Speaker 3: up the ghost here? Are we like teasing the listener

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Speaker 3: into figuring out what the reveal is right from the drop,

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Speaker 3: you know? And at the end of the day, I

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Speaker 3: don't think the reveal was really that. It was cool.

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Speaker 3: I think it was I like the way we handled it,

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Speaker 3: but like that's not what it's about. Getting to that

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Speaker 3: and owning the what you learned from the reveal and

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Speaker 3: then taking that with you through the story is much

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Speaker 3: more important.

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Speaker 1: And I do want to give Alex a lot of

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Speaker 1: credit too, because he is the only person that came

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Speaker 1: up with the title where I was willing to let

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Speaker 1: go of the old title because I think Flashpoint is

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Speaker 1: such a st title and it speaks to the show

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Speaker 1: in so many ways. Yeah, and where we are today

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Speaker 1: in this climate, can you talk.

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Speaker 2: A little bit about where you maybe once you decided, okay,

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Speaker 2: we're doing the show, how you started that process of

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Speaker 2: research and crafting the narrative arc and whether that shifted

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Speaker 2: over time. Like, I'd love to hear about that whole

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Speaker 2: process because of all that nuance. And yeah, where it

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Speaker 2: begins versus where it ends up.

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Speaker 1: You know, it all starts during COVID, like the peak

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Speaker 1: of COVID. And I think it was that summer in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty I had my first It all started with

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Speaker 1: an interview with my mom. It was in our basement.

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Speaker 1: I was living with my parents at the time. I

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Speaker 1: had just moved back from Los Angeles and was living

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Speaker 1: at home all through COVID and we sat down and

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Speaker 1: just I put a mic in front of her and

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Speaker 1: we talked for two hours. And the bulk of what

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Speaker 1: you hear in episode two is from that first interview

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Speaker 1: that we did. Doug and I hadn't talked to anyone else.

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Speaker 1: We talked to ourselves about the type of story we

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Speaker 1: wanted to tell, but we hadn't talked to experts at

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Speaker 1: this point. We hadn't talked to anyone related to the

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Speaker 1: story except my mom. So we started with that interview

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Speaker 1: and we took it from there.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. Wow, all right, so she shared her story

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Speaker 2: with you, And then how did you go about deciding

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Speaker 2: who to interview who else? What other voices you were

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Speaker 2: going to bring into the show, because there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: Doug was very good at helping me understand the Christian identity,

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Speaker 1: the religious component to the story, and he was very

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Speaker 1: good at pointing me to experts that could talk about that,

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Speaker 1: people he's followed on Twitter for years, Substack wherever I

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Speaker 1: was very much focused on the crime story and finding

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Speaker 1: those people people connected Eric Rudoff family members.

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Speaker 3: The Tenderfoot team was also really good at helping us find.

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Speaker 2: Yeah Eye contacts and police.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but also one person always inevitably led to another. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: Like we would talk to one FBI guy, they would

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Speaker 3: teach us with a GBI guy, so on and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Weird anecdote is that for a while there in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, everyone I reached out to or top to

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Speaker 1: died or had someone close to them pass away.

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Speaker 3: It was quite a wrong.

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Speaker 1: Like I talked to GBI agent Charles Stone, who comes

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Speaker 1: up many times in the podcast, and I found out

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Speaker 1: I think it was a month and a half later,

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Speaker 1: he passed away.

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Speaker 3: WHOA.

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Speaker 1: I went to his house, we sat down for about

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Speaker 1: two and a half hours. He just had surgery, and

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Speaker 1: I found out about six weeks later he passed away.

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Speaker 1: So I'm very fortunate to have been able to sit

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Speaker 1: down with him. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So was the narrative arc then sort of developed

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Speaker 2: organically or did you have a really specific from the

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Speaker 2: get go? We want to you know, start here reveal

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Speaker 2: Cole's relationship to every like, you know, focus on the

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Speaker 2: Olympic bombing first and then shift to the clinic and

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Speaker 2: then reveal Cole and then like, how did you actually

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Speaker 2: draft out where the show was going to go? Or

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Speaker 2: was that something that really was kind of an organic

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Speaker 2: result of all these conversations, one leading to the other.

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Speaker 1: When we first started the show, we wanted to save

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Speaker 1: the reveal until the last act of the whole series,

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Speaker 1: so it would have been around episode six, and of

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Speaker 1: course we revealed that in episode two, and I think

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Speaker 1: that was the right move because I think once people

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Speaker 1: understand my connection to the story, they're able to hold

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Speaker 1: onto my words a little harder and maybe listen a

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Speaker 1: little closer than they would otherwise given my connection. But

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Speaker 1: the original outline we had certainly is not what we

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Speaker 1: up with. We wanted to dig into the connections, the

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Speaker 1: stuff that made people angry. We wanted to dig into

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Speaker 1: that in episode two. Of course we didn't. I think

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Speaker 1: that was the right move because, regardless of people's viewpoints

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Speaker 1: or where they stand on abortion, I think most people

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Speaker 1: listen to all eight episodes, and that is the most

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Speaker 1: valuable tool we could have had in making this show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we initially were scripting episodes where each each episode

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Speaker 3: had sort of a tangential history piece, and little by

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Speaker 3: little it was taking you up through and it was

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Speaker 3: going through the timeline of Rudolph's life. Also, the timeline

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Speaker 3: of Leah's life and also the timeline of America's sort

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Speaker 3: of cultural maturity from you know, the sixties when he

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Speaker 3: was born, when we start our story with Goldwater, et cetera,

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Speaker 3: and jumping back and forth in time was just proved

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Speaker 3: really way too challenging. Donald and he's just he's so

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Speaker 3: he's so savvy about this stuff without having to try.

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Speaker 3: He's just like, no, simplify, tell the crime story, and

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Speaker 3: then break it down. So we resisted that for a minute,

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Speaker 3: and then we were like, yeah, okay, cool.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about this whole process

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Speaker 2: of crafting the narrative because there were so many people

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Speaker 2: that you also talked to and connected with directly, Cole.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember the name of the gentleman who you

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Speaker 2: talked to on the phone, but you called for the question. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: So you called him right and you told him your connection,

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Speaker 2: Derek Rudolph, and then he made all these assumptions about

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Speaker 2: your viewpoint, which is just how people are. But can

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Speaker 2: you talk a little bit about just that experience that

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Speaker 2: you had, maybe your internal experience around reaching out to

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Speaker 2: people who you maybe disagree with, who might have been

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Speaker 2: making assumptions based on your relationship it indirectly to Eric's actions.

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Speaker 2: Was that experience like for you conducting interviews and how

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Speaker 2: did you kind of maintain emotional clarity and try to

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Speaker 2: stay a little I guess neutral and objective in those conversations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. I think when I first

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Speaker 1: started reaching out to people, I wasn't getting the response

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Speaker 1: that I would have liked because I wasn't explaining my

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Speaker 1: connection to this story. I was coming into it from

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Speaker 1: I'm a journalist doing a story on Eric Rudolf in

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Speaker 1: his other bombings and the subsequent manhunt. I would love

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Speaker 1: to talk to you in silence. I quickly realized if

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Speaker 1: I followed up and didn't bury the lead on my connection,

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Speaker 1: people were much more willing to talk to me because

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Speaker 1: they were interested. They were interested in the story. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there were instances too where people came into

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Speaker 1: it with their own set of views and they projected

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Speaker 1: that onto me. And surely I must think this because

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Speaker 1: of X, Y and Z, but that just wasn't the case.

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Speaker 1: When I talked to Tom Brandham, he immediately assumed I

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Speaker 1: thought Eric Rudolf was, in his words, a hero that

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Speaker 1: couldn't be further from the truth. Now, did I correct

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Speaker 1: him when I talked to him, No, because I was

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Speaker 1: looking to get an interview, and I did. I ran

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Speaker 1: into that a few times. But I think that on

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Speaker 1: the flip side of that, when I talked to certain people,

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Speaker 1: they understood where I was coming from. And in the

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Speaker 1: case of talking to some of these victims, they certainly

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Speaker 1: would not have talked to me if they thought I

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Speaker 1: thought Eric Rudolf was some type of hero. For example,

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Speaker 1: in the case of Emily Lyons, we sat down for

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Speaker 1: three hours in Birmingham, and she gave me her entire

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Speaker 1: powerful story and she did ask me where I stood

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Speaker 1: on things, and I was very upfront with her from

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Speaker 1: the start, and I think that giving her that context

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Speaker 1: was very important to having a very good, fruitful interview

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Speaker 1: with her, because otherwise I don't think she would have

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Speaker 1: been comfortable telling me her story if she didn't know

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Speaker 1: where I was coming from.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, not in the same way. I'll also add that

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Speaker 3: you said it right there. Emily asked you. Tom didn't

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Speaker 3: ask you if people. If people come into it and

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Speaker 3: they're curious about oh wow, that's a wild story, I

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Speaker 3: want to understand what you actually think. It's not like

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Speaker 3: Cole was cagy and didn't tell them he told him.

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Speaker 3: But in the case of somebody like Tom Branham or

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Speaker 3: Dan Gamon, just so happened with those guys that they

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Speaker 3: didn't ask. It's not like we were being coy and

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Speaker 3: hiding this stuff. But we're there to listen for the

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Speaker 3: most part. If someone asks us, we're there to answer.

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Speaker 3: Certainly Cole is, but somebody doesn't ask if they're not

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Speaker 3: expressing curiosity in you, if they just want to talk

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Speaker 3: about themselves, that's okay.

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Speaker 2: Right, That is a very good point. I loved. And

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Speaker 2: it's Emily's voice is the last voice that we hear

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Speaker 2: in the podcast, right. I love that. It made me

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Speaker 2: cry so good. I actually I think that I actually

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Speaker 2: exclaimed out loud, like yes, that's such a strong ending

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Speaker 2: hearing her. I really thought it was powerful to hear

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Speaker 2: so much of her and to bring her back in

437
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: at the end. And I'm not entirely sure how to

438
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: ask this question, but you know, she makes this point

439
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 2: of this being about men exerting control over women, and

440
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 2: I would love to know what your perspective is on this.

441
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 2: Having interviewed so many people you talk about being a

442
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 2: male voice telling the story, but yeah, what's your perspective

443
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: on this and how did that narrative show up in

444
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 2: this whole process?

445
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: Early on, Doug and I were very aware of the

446
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: fact that it was two men, three men, four men

447
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: telling the story, the story about women, the story about choice,

448
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 1: and I think early on we really shied away from

449
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: my perspective and more we're trying to make it about

450
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: my mom's story. And thankfully episode two does have a

451
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: large part of her story. So we were always being

452
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: very delicate with it until one day Doug told me, no,

453
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: this is your story. You're telling it. It's time you

454
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: take some authority and tell it the way you want

455
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: to tell it and from your perspective. And I think

456
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: that once we establish that, it sort of clicked for me.

457
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: But that is to say, every single part of this

458
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: story is about that narrative of men controlling women. Let's

459
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: take my mom's story. For example, my biological father, as

460
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: you hear in episode two, throughout that entire process, was

461
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: very controlling of her. He's the one who went to prison,

462
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: yet he expected my mother to wait around a high

463
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: school student, wait around until he got out of prison, right,

464
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: and then when she did get out of prison. He

465
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: expected her to spend house arrest with him. That, as

466
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 1: my mom says, isn't love. That's not a relationship. That's

467
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: not healthy. And ultimately, I do think that if it's

468
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: a large reason of why I'm here today is because

469
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: of his control over her. I don't know if we

470
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: want to say it like that, but I think my

471
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: point came across there.

472
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: No, I think that's fair. I think that you Again,

473
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 3: it fits into the paradoxical nature of this story, where

474
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: the critique of patriarchal control is something that is essential

475
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: and it's baked into this, but it doesn't change the

476
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 3: fact that the person who's telling the story exists because

477
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: of patriarchal control. Patriot like an approach to inflicting your views,

478
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 3: Eric Rudolf inflicting his views of the world on everyone else,

479
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 3: and they are very misogynistic and male and racist and

480
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: white supremacist, et cetera. Again, I think it's it's a

481
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 3: tricky wicket, but it's nonetheless it fits with the rest

482
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: of the story we're telling. And so yeah, we were

483
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 3: extremely deferential to whether it was Leah or any of

484
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 3: the other women whose stories we were trying to tell

485
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,239
Speaker 3: until it got to the point where it was it

486
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: became clear that there had to be a framing device

487
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 3: for all of that, and it had to be our host,

488
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 3: and it is his story. Like be clear that that

489
00:27:53,560 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: men controlling women is straight fuckery. Yet own the fact

490
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 3: that you're here telling your story.

491
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: You all had a very challenging task ahead of you

492
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: to You're not remaining neutral, right, but like you're poking,

493
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: like you said, the things that make people upset, but

494
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 2: you're also attempting not to alienate everybody, you know, And

495
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 2: that's a really important thing to try to do. And

496
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: I appreciate that that's what you're you know.

497
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: The good news is, I think both Doug and I

498
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: both have experience in not alienating people. I mean, whether

499
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: it's our families, our friends, We are around and interact

500
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: with people who don't hold our set of beliefs right

501
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: and so constantly, and those people are also listening to

502
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: our show. And I think and I hope the fact

503
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: that we were able to hold listeners for so long

504
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: and to have them hear what we have to say. Sure,

505
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: it's going to make people upset. We understood that coming in.

506
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: But I do hope that people take something from the

507
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: show that they didn't expect, and that's where the paradox

508
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: comes in.

509
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: So who do you think really needs to listen to

510
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: this podcast?

511
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm I'm sure there's a preaching to the

512
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 3: choir component of this that isn't who needs to listen,

513
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: But I think that's I'd like to think that those

514
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: people listen and recognize that maybe we got some things right.

515
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: But I also think there's a component of people that

516
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 3: they maybe aren't quite keen to some of the undercurrents.

517
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 3: Like we talk about the murmurations and how movements happen,

518
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 3: and movements always have like a fringe, and a murmuration

519
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 3: has outliers and fringes that are pulling it. That's what

520
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 3: gives the thing shape, right, is that the outliers are

521
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: pulling out, sometimes even separating and coming back in those

522
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 3: sorts of fringes, and a movement are and I'm not

523
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 3: saying it's they're created with Machavelian and tent, but they are.

524
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: They exist in a way that makes it a whole

525
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 3: lot easier to ignore some of the ify stuff because

526
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 3: while there's a really extreme person over there that's doing

527
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: stuff that I would never subscribe to that. I would

528
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: never recommend bombing an abortion clinic. No, no, right, but

529
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: some of the stuff you are doing, if that person

530
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: weren't there, it might be a little on the edge.

531
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: So I think that that in political speak, it's called

532
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 3: moving the Overton window. That also is kind of that

533
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: drama being beat so loudly it's become boring. But I

534
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 3: think there's a lot of people that consider themselves very

535
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 3: moderate that maybe don't realize how things are being nudged around,

536
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 3: like maybe the ground they're standing on. I'd like those

537
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: people to potentially hear this and at least say it's

538
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: food for thought.

539
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I will chime in and say since episode one,

540
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: two three four, the first part of this release, I've

541
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: had people reach out to me who I know where

542
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: they stand politically, belief set, and they just thought it

543
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: was amazing, you know, is the word they would use.

544
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 1: They couldn't wait to hear more. They thought my perspective

545
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: was so interesting and unique. But I do think that

546
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: they thought I was going a certain way with it,

547
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: and that's been the case with a lot of people

548
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: in my life. Is like, who I know lean or

549
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: are fully blown on that end of the spectrum. They'll

550
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: listen to the first few, take one thing from it,

551
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: and then we go a different direction, and they feel,

552
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: I guess, a bit isolated by that when they shouldn't.

553
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: But I think naturally that's just where we are today.

554
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: I don't think it's possible for people to hear certain

555
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: words in a sequence and not take that as the

556
00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: end of the world.

557
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 3: It's hard not to be defensive. That's again something that

558
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 3: we're trying to do here. Is like, even if somebody

559
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: may listen to this and feel like there's a lot

560
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 3: of finger wagging, there's some I guess, but I hope

561
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: that's not the point. But it's really hard not to

562
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 3: be defensive. It's really hard to hear criticism. That just

563
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: is always the case. It doesn't matter who you are,

564
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: how righteous or humble you may be. It's just it's

565
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: a difficult thing to take. And so even if you're

566
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: not even being criticized, if you feel like you're being criticized,

567
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 3: it's just hard. Right, nobody said being human was easy.

568
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 3: Let'st I check.

569
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: So what do you hope people will gain from this show?

570
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: I think it's what we've been talking about. I think

571
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: it's more than anything. Perspective that my story in my

572
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: mom's story is not the rule is not should not

573
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: be taken at face value. My mother had a lot

574
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: of help. She had a lot of support financially, emotionally.

575
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: If it were any other situation, I would not have

576
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: turned out the way I am. And with that comes privilege,

577
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: and I recognized that privilege, and I think for that

578
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: for that reason, that is why choice must exist. And

579
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: also I think we're giving too much power sometimes to

580
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: Eric Rudolph because my mom could have gone to a

581
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: different abortion clinic, right, she could have still carried out

582
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: the procedure, but she didn't. But that was a choice.

583
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, that was still a

584
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: choice that she made.

585
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 3: The world your mom grew up in afforded her a

586
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 3: choice and we say this and allowed her to get

587
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 3: her arms around her moment. Without that choice, who knows

588
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 3: what she would have done. Honestly, who knows what she

589
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 3: would have done. People do crazy stuff when they're in

590
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 3: situations like that. But it's like that idea of arguing

591
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: with someone whose argument is to take your argument is

592
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 3: to take the ability or the platform to argue away

593
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 3: from you, Like you have to just afford that much.

594
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 3: But I think my takeaway that I would hope for

595
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 3: is probably I came into this different from Cole. Cole

596
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 3: really wanted to have a conversation about abortion and I

597
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: wanted to have a conversation about the culture. They're not unrelated.

598
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: But that's what I'd like to see, is just a

599
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: more serious conversation about the culture instead of just like

600
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 3: this tribal screaming match.

601
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: When you say the culture, can you just expand clarifying?

602
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, about so the political dynamics in play and how

603
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 3: it's kind of seeped into every every decision of our lives,

604
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: the way in which we present ourselves to the world,

605
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 3: Like it's all gotten a little bit infected by that,

606
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: and I think that that's inevitable.

607
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: Yet the way that we deal with it isn't.

608
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 3: I'd like to think that there can be a conversation

609
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 3: that's not pedantic or like trying to prove each other wrong,

610
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 3: but rather if I may get really sacaraing and go

611
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 3: ted lasso, just being curious, there's something to that that

612
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 3: I can appreciate.

613
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's a different I don't remember when you're

614
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: engaged in curiosity, Like there's a different part of your

615
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: brain that's activated than when you're engaged in a debate. Right, Like,

616
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: being able to actually be in that space allows you

617
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: to kind of depersonalize a little bit. I think it's

618
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 2: like the science mind. You know, if you're researching and

619
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 2: you're looking for a specific answer, you're going to find

620
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: that specific answer to fit your hypothesis. If you're just

621
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 2: openly exploring something and you're listening in a more neutral place,

622
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 2: there's an infinite number of possibilities that can come out

623
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: of that, right that probably aren't going to match that

624
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: hypothesis that you may have set up for yourself.

625
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: Right. Cole's story is a good example of that. The

626
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: example of people hearing his story and making certain assumptions

627
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 3: about him is perfectly fine, But the fact of the

628
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 3: matter is he, in order to end up where he

629
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 3: ended up, necessarily had to not personalize it.

630
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: I think being able for me, being able to talk

631
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: to everyone on every end of the spectrum in this

632
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: entire show was incredibly valuable. And also to be able

633
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: to sit in a room with someone like Emily Lyons

634
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: where the actions of one man in a way saved

635
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: my life but destroyed hers. That's pretty powerful. And to

636
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: be able to talk to her about that and for

637
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 1: her to love me and for me to love her

638
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: is what mys And to be able to have a

639
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: conversation about that and to be able to hold our

640
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: contradictory truths at the same time, that's powerful.

641
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think sharing that is the best we can do.

642
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 3: I'd like you, I can't I can't expect or even

643
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 3: attempt to have someone else in habit Cole's experience of that,

644
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 3: but sharing it, you'd hope that people would open up

645
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: about the possibility of having a real conversation without you know,

646
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 3: blowing shit up.

647
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for the conversation. It was really great

648
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: to connect and I again really appreciate the work you

649
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 2: did on the show and the conversation that it's hopefully

650
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: will open up just one on one with people, if

651
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 2: we get folks talking about some of these things in

652
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: a more interpersonal, nuanced way, like great, amazing and I

653
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: really appreciate you taking the time today. So thank you, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: thank you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Flashpoint.

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Speaker 1: This series is released weekly absolutely free, but for ad

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Speaker 1: free listening, early access and exclusive bonuses, you can subscribe

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Speaker 1: to tenderfoot Plus on Apple Podcasts, or at tenderfootplus dot

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Speaker 1: com