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Speaker 1: Pushing.

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Speaker 2: I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben Austin. We are two best friends, one black,

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Speaker 1: one white.

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Speaker 3: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is

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Speaker 3: some of my best friends are.

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Speaker 1: Some of my best friends are in this show. We

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Speaker 1: wrestle with the challenges.

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Speaker 4: And the absurdities of a deeply divided, separate, and unequal country.

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Speaker 4: And nowhere is this more apparent than in the American

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Speaker 4: school system from K through higher education. Today we're talking

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Speaker 4: about the recent Supreme Court decision banning race based affirmative

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Speaker 4: action in higher education and what that means for the future.

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Speaker 1: And oh man, that's right. And we have someone on

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Speaker 1: the show that couldn't be better to speak with, our friend,

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Speaker 1: Anarema Bargava. Honarema has this amazing pedigree. She served in

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Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Division at the US Department of Justice

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Speaker 1: during the Obama administration, focusing on education issues, and before that,

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Speaker 1: she also worked on education at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund.

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Speaker 1: And Honareima was actually at the Supreme Court hearings when

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Speaker 1: this affirmative action case was being argued, so she knows

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Speaker 1: what she's talking about. And she also happens to be

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Speaker 1: an old friend, Honorema, grew up two blocks for me

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Speaker 1: in my neighborhood, and she went to our high school,

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Speaker 1: Kinwood Academy. You know, it always comes back to Chicago.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 3: Anarema is going to tell us about what she calls

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Speaker 3: the setup behind this case and the campaign to keep

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Speaker 3: our country essentially segregated, or at least to take us

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Speaker 3: back to the quote unquote good old days based on

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Speaker 3: this ruling.

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Speaker 2: So let's get to it.

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Speaker 1: Let's go.

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Speaker 5: We got in a fish and him.

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Speaker 1: All right, an Arima, welcome to Some of my best friends.

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Speaker 5: Are so excited to be here with you, and.

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Speaker 1: It's like a homecoming for real, because we you and I,

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Speaker 1: we go way back to when we were we were shorties.

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Speaker 1: There were days after school when I was a little

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Speaker 1: one and I, since we grew up in the same neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: I would get taken back to your house for after school.

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Speaker 1: And I just want to say that my after school

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Speaker 1: snacks at my house, like I would make myself a

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Speaker 1: bowl of cereal, and if I was really ambitious, I

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Speaker 1: would fry up some sizzeline and at your house, at

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Speaker 1: your house, your mom made homemade somosis. Wow, it was crazy.

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Speaker 5: Every day, every day she made tomosas for you whenever

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Speaker 5: you showed up.

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Speaker 6: It was like a daily, daily practice.

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Speaker 5: I was a little bit more of a shorty than

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Speaker 5: you were, because I remember, well, I told the story

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Speaker 5: all through high school, which is that I said that

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Speaker 5: you and your brother baby sat me. It might have

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Speaker 5: just been your brother, but this was a really important

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Speaker 5: story for me to tell everyone that I you know,

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Speaker 5: I got to spend some time with Ben Austin when

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Speaker 5: I was when I was a kid, quality time getting

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Speaker 5: babysat and eating somosas.

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Speaker 1: Because I was like the big man on campus.

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Speaker 5: I was like, you know, I'm not I'm not gonna

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Speaker 5: I'm not gonna talk about, you know, the big man

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Speaker 5: on campus moment.

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Speaker 6: I feel like Khalil might get a little bit.

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Speaker 5: Jealous or sad here, so I just I'll just say

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Speaker 5: maybe maybe maybe, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well that he was. He was much cooler than

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 3: And now that I know he was, he was eating

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Speaker 3: somosa's even more uh more in the in the in

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Speaker 3: the know than I was. So look, we all went

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Speaker 3: to the best high school in America, you know, hands down,

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Speaker 3: Kinwood Academy, home of the Broncos and uh, you know this.

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Speaker 3: This is a public high school. It's on the South

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Speaker 3: side of Chicago.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about.

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Speaker 3: It on our show many many times. Majority black student population,

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Speaker 3: but obviously we had some white kids, we had some

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Speaker 3: Jewish kids, but we haven't talked that much about our

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Speaker 3: Asian population. And turns out that some of our best

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Speaker 3: friends from high school from Kenwood we're also of Asian descent,

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Speaker 3: in your case an arena South Asian. So like, what

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Speaker 3: was it like to be a student, you know, in

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Speaker 3: this black, white world as as a little girl with

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Speaker 3: a crush or a young woman I should say, with

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Speaker 3: a crush on Ben.

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Speaker 1: Not the last part.

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Speaker 6: I didn't do that part.

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Speaker 1: I was talking.

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Speaker 3: We all know how that works, right, it's my friend

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Speaker 3: who who has the crush?

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Speaker 1: I get it.

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Speaker 2: I get it, you do.

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Speaker 5: I mean I might have had another few crushes in

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Speaker 5: your class.

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Speaker 6: So I'll leave it. I'll leave it that.

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Speaker 5: We can talk about that some other day.

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Speaker 6: I will.

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Speaker 5: I will say it made us. There weren't that many

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Speaker 5: South Asian students around. I mean, there weren't that many

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Speaker 5: kids on the South Side. He was South Asian or

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Speaker 5: and the kids who were coming in to Kenwood. A

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Speaker 5: lot of the Asian kids, I think, were coming from

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Speaker 5: across the city, and so I think in some ways

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Speaker 5: we got to be whoever we wanted to be, right,

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Speaker 5: So you kind of got to flow through because people

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Speaker 5: didn't know exactly what to do with you other than

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Speaker 5: your mom made somosas. And you know, my brother used

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Speaker 5: to get called Gandhi all the time because I was

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Speaker 5: the only you know, Indian person ever anyone had ever

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Speaker 5: heard of.

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Speaker 6: It didn't feel like we were different.

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Speaker 5: It just felt like we were We were learning about

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Speaker 5: each other and we had something you know, strange and

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Speaker 5: different to contribute to that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, that's that's that's kind of my

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Speaker 3: experience too, meaning that I don't remember a lot of

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Speaker 3: students of Asian descent, whether East Asian or South Asian

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Speaker 3: or API in the broadest sense. I remember a few,

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Speaker 3: like in my classes. And Ben's going to be totally

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Speaker 3: embarrassed by me telling this story, but I had a

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Speaker 3: classmate in a in a speech class, actually was an

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Speaker 3: acting class. It was drama, and he had an accent.

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Speaker 3: He was probably Filipino descent, and one day we were

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Speaker 3: all doing improv and sort of the prompt was like,

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Speaker 3: you know, he had to say something equivalent. Ben is

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Speaker 3: shaking his head, like bad day, but it came out

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Speaker 3: bad day. And for years Ben and I kind of

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Speaker 3: like if we had a bad day, we adopted his

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Speaker 3: Filipino accents, and like, there's all kind of fucked up

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Speaker 3: about it, right, But like, if I'm being honest, it

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Speaker 3: was partly the foreignness of this Filipino kid in a black,

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Speaker 3: white school that kind of made the accent stick out

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Speaker 3: and then became a kind of inside joke between us

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Speaker 3: when we actually used.

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Speaker 2: The word like, yo, how was your day?

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Speaker 3: I had, you know, he would say it or I

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Speaker 3: would say it anyway. I think, you know, if this

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Speaker 3: show's going to be true to itself and if we're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about these issues in a world that

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Speaker 3: is really crazy right now, and the topic that we're

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Speaker 3: talking about, you know, I got to own my own

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Speaker 3: my own ship, and that that great high school that

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Speaker 3: we all went to CLO.

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Speaker 6: I think we all had it.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there are all kinds of stereotypes about people

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Speaker 5: of every background, right, and I think in some ways

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Speaker 5: it was it was good that we had a few

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Speaker 5: because you could kind of the part that I did

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Speaker 5: like was that you kind of represent and wander, so

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Speaker 5: you didn't have you know, the Indian kid that people

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Speaker 5: call Gandhi also did graffiti and you know, and swear

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Speaker 5: and got himself in trouble and was walking around and

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Speaker 5: you know. So that's that's the part that that you

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Speaker 5: break up the stereotypes, right and and you need that

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Speaker 5: because otherwise you only know the accents and and whatever

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Speaker 5: it is that you got on TV.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this gets that zan Rima to the to

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about today, which is diversity and the

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Speaker 1: recent Supreme Court decision which got rid of affirmative action

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Speaker 1: as far as a decision in college admissions. And we

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Speaker 1: want to hear more about like your career trajectory and

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Speaker 1: the work you've done as a civil rights attorney with

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Speaker 1: the NAACP, with the Obama Justice Department that really working

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Speaker 1: on cases just like this, And can you talk about

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Speaker 1: sort of the really like the decades of work you've

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Speaker 1: done that give context for this moment on affirmative action.

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Speaker 5: So I think it all comes back to Kenwin. I

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Speaker 5: think I went into college thinking I was going to

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Speaker 5: be a doctor like most Indian kids, and you know,

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Speaker 5: I didn't do so well in organic chemistry.

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Speaker 6: So that was the end of that.

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Speaker 5: And then, you know, I think about how extraordinary all

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Speaker 5: these people we grew up with are, right, And you know,

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Speaker 5: there were people who would wrap in the hallways, and

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Speaker 5: the way they understood the world and the way they

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Speaker 5: talked about the world was smarter than anything else I

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Speaker 5: had come across, right, just just to be able to

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Speaker 5: take it all in and figure it out in a moment, right,

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Speaker 5: And and so that's the my friends growing up from

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Speaker 5: from those who weren't sure where their parents were, were

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Speaker 5: sometimes homeless, some of whom you know, grew up in

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Speaker 5: very difficult circumstances, some of the most you know, extraordinary

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Speaker 5: seers of what was going on around us.

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Speaker 6: Those those are the folks who should have had the.

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Speaker 5: Same shots that I did, right, And and we went

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Speaker 5: to the same high school. But I had parents who

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Speaker 5: were middle class parents who had all kinds of opportunities

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Speaker 5: that I got because of that, And and so I

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Speaker 5: I think that's why I wanted to do something in education.

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Speaker 3: Can I pause you on that, Aama for a second, Yes,

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Speaker 3: because I think you're saying something that is really relevant

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Speaker 3: to the to the larger conversation we have so you're

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Speaker 3: basically saying that out of the experience of being part

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Speaker 3: of a small minority meaning an Indian a descendant kid

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Speaker 3: in a largely black white school, like for you, diversity

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Speaker 3: was a win win win, meaning you came to see

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Speaker 3: kids in this space where you're learning. When you said

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Speaker 3: the word seers like you could you're sort of learning

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Speaker 3: from people because their diversity was on full view from

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Speaker 3: your perspective, they were very much not like you. And

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Speaker 3: you're saying that you partly in college discovered that You're like, hey,

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Speaker 3: I want to make sure there as many schools in

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Speaker 3: this country that replicate the kind of experience I had.

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Speaker 3: Is that is that what you're saying in terms of

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Speaker 3: like translating your own personal experience into your career choice.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and in the sense that it's not that they

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Speaker 5: were not like me, it's that they were like me

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Speaker 5: right and in some ways so much better than me

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Speaker 5: right in terms of what they had to navigate and

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Speaker 5: the ways in which they found to navigate it. We

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Speaker 5: joke about this, but like we used to sit outside,

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Speaker 5: y'all did too, right, playing force squear and having conversations,

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Speaker 5: and it was back to the place where like the

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Speaker 5: most like the way you would learn with those conversations

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Speaker 5: after school about all kinds of stuff, about music, about

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Speaker 5: you know, what was going on in the world, was

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Speaker 5: going down down the street, and you start to learn

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Speaker 5: about how the world works that way, like that's that's

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Speaker 5: your education.

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Speaker 1: And to remind I want I want to jump ahead

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Speaker 1: to say your years in the in the Civil Rights

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Speaker 1: Division of the Department of Justice, describe some of the

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Speaker 1: cases that you're working on and sort of what that

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Speaker 1: means for affirmative action.

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Speaker 5: Sure, so I'm working let me let me start with

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Speaker 5: the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and then to the Justice Department.

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Speaker 5: And in both places, the bulk, like hundreds of cases

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Speaker 5: were about segregation in schools around the country, and and

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Speaker 5: the fact that there are cases that had been around

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Speaker 5: longer than I've been alive about you know, the ways

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Speaker 5: in which schools were still you know, could you could

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Speaker 5: map them in places on different sides of train tracks,

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Speaker 5: all black or all white? And how opportunities map that way?

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Speaker 6: Right? So the reason I wanted to do.

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Speaker 5: Those kinds of cases is because we spend so much

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Speaker 5: time thinking about outcomes, like like how did you know

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Speaker 5: how our kids doing on tests? But these were cases

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Speaker 5: about like the fundamentals, like do you actually have a building,

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Speaker 5: do you have teachers, do you have staff? You know,

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Speaker 5: do you have the resources for students who the only

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Speaker 5: difference between them is race in some cases in class, right,

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Speaker 5: and they have a very different educational experience, you know,

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Speaker 5: in nearby areas, right. And so I think about all

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Speaker 5: the ways in which we learned from each other. We

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Speaker 5: learned what unites us by being in class together in

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Speaker 5: high school. But it was also the kind of resources

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Speaker 5: that we ended up having being at one of the

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Speaker 5: few high schools in Chicago that was out of a

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Speaker 5: magnet high school, right.

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Speaker 6: So both things really.

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Speaker 5: Drove the kind of work we were doing in the

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Speaker 5: Justice Department and at the Legal Defense.

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Speaker 1: Funt So, the vast majority of schools in the nation

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Speaker 1: are still almost completely segregated, Like seventy five percent of

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Speaker 1: students go to either an all white school or in

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Speaker 1: all black school. And what you're saying too is they're

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Speaker 1: not just separate, but they're still separate and unequal.

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Speaker 5: We are separate and unequal, and we are at a

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Speaker 5: place where our pools across the country are as segregated

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Speaker 5: as they were in nineteen seventy and so all of

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Speaker 5: the things that we were trying to talk about in

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Speaker 5: America today that we had a chance to do differently

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Speaker 5: at Kenwood.

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Speaker 6: If we are.

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Speaker 5: Separated, we look at people who are different from ourselves

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Speaker 5: and we've never been in spaces with them.

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Speaker 6: So what do we go to.

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Speaker 5: We go to fear, we go to the unknown, we

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Speaker 5: go to those type of things. And I think that's

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Speaker 5: the thing that I'm really and now continue to be

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Speaker 5: worried about, which is the more segregated we are, the

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Speaker 5: more we create the breeding grounds for fear, for hate,

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Speaker 5: for divides.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right, Anna Rima. So we're going to

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Speaker 3: take a quick break, and when we come back, we're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about this recent Supreme Court decision on

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Speaker 3: affirmative action and a really poor forecast.

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Speaker 2: For the future of this country. We'll be right back

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Speaker 2: after the break.

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Speaker 1: We are back on. Some of my best friends are

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Speaker 1: with one of our best friends on Arima Bargava on Arema,

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Speaker 1: you are the perfect person to talk to us about

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Speaker 1: the recent Supreme Court affirmative action decision, and could you

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Speaker 1: please sum up for us what just happened? What is

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Speaker 1: the students for fair Admissions versus Harvard and the University

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Speaker 1: of North Carolina.

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Speaker 5: So I'm going to start with the decisions and what

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Speaker 5: the court came down and said, and then I'll go

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Speaker 5: to what this is all about, because.

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Speaker 6: It's a really big setup. That's a really big setup.

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Speaker 1: Well, I did say I did say some up.

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Speaker 6: So I'm going to sum up.

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Speaker 5: I'm going to sum up the setup.

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Speaker 6: That's what's going to happen here, and I'm going to.

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Speaker 5: Talk about the way that the justices justices fell into

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Speaker 5: the setup. So let me just start by saying this,

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Speaker 5: this decision, like Justice sot to my or and Justice

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Speaker 5: Jackson talked about, lack any kind of coherence, like it's ahistorical,

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Speaker 5: it doesn't make any sense, and it doesn't make that

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Speaker 5: much sense legally, because really what this is about is

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Speaker 5: there are interests that we have, and one of the

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Speaker 5: interests that we have in America is to actually have

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Speaker 5: people be in diverse spaces, to talk about the way

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Speaker 5: in which that's a strength that we can take account

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Speaker 5: of race in very limited and narrow ways to try

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Speaker 5: and create spaces that are diverse. And that was something

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Speaker 5: that that schools were able to do for the last

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Speaker 5: many many years that's been court decision In two thousand

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Speaker 5: and three out of the University of Michigan, there were

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Speaker 5: two decisions about how you could actually take account of

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Speaker 5: race in the context of higher education. And what the

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Speaker 5: court basically said back then was we're going to give

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Speaker 5: colleges some leeway. And let me be clear, we're only

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Speaker 5: talking about when we' talking about higher education, we're only

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Speaker 5: talking about about two hundred colleges and universities are actually selective,

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Speaker 5: which means they take less than fifty percent of students.

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Speaker 1: And so this is a case every other school like

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Speaker 1: pretty you can of most schools, you apply and you

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Speaker 1: can get in, like they need students.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, they want you.

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Speaker 5: They want you, they want your money, they want you

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Speaker 5: to get there, right, and so so so we're talking

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Speaker 5: about about two hundred college and universities and of those

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Speaker 5: that these cases are about two of the most elite

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Speaker 5: Harvard and the University of North Carolina, one private, one public.

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Speaker 1: Oldest private and oldest public. They were chosen probably very

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Speaker 1: strategically here, they.

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Speaker 5: Were absolutely chosen. So this is this is these are

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Speaker 5: cases about how do we describe merit? You know, is

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Speaker 5: what is our definition of who is meritorious to be

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Speaker 5: able to get into elite spaces, which has.

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Speaker 6: A long history in American law.

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Speaker 5: But more importantly, they're much more about humanity, right, which is,

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Speaker 5: how do we actually think about the many talents and

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Speaker 5: the many things that people bring, things like judgment and

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Speaker 5: the kind of obstacles and what I was talking about

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Speaker 5: a Kenwood, all these students who were able to overcome

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Speaker 5: so many different things.

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Speaker 6: And so what the.

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Speaker 5: Supreme Court saying is, you can look at every factor

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Speaker 5: about a student except for their race everything else. And

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Speaker 5: then they did some weird things, right, which they said, well,

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Speaker 5: actually you can look at everything and you know, butt race,

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Speaker 5: But if a student wants to write an essay about race,

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Speaker 5: and you know, for example, I'm I love black comic

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Speaker 5: books like I love the new series that came out

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Speaker 5: about Wakanda in comic book style, right, and the only

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Speaker 5: thing you can talk about about that is that they

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Speaker 5: love comic books, and not about the fact that they,

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Speaker 5: you know, maybe black and that resonates with them. There

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Speaker 5: was a real concern that these decisions would actually say

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Speaker 5: you can't talk about your own stories. I mean, you

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Speaker 5: can't talk about your experiences. They didn't quite go that far.

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Speaker 5: But the second thing they do is, you know, back

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Speaker 5: to that the way I started. When there's something really important,

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Speaker 5: like a compelling interest, which is the way the legal

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Speaker 5: world talks about it, like diversity, can you still pursue that?

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Speaker 5: And the answer from the court is the way I

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Speaker 5: read it, Yes, But the court says, hey, we're not

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Speaker 5: institutionally competent to figure out whether or not you've actually

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Speaker 5: gotten the benefits of.

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Speaker 6: Diversity, So we don't know.

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Speaker 5: There's no way to sort of measure that, and we

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Speaker 5: don't know how to concretely measure it. And so because

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Speaker 5: of that, we're going to say you can't really consider race. Well,

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Speaker 5: of course you can't measure it. How could you possibly

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Speaker 5: measure what it is that the benefits that the three

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Speaker 5: of us got from being able to go to school together, Like,

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Speaker 5: there's there's no way to be able to think about that.

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Speaker 5: And so the big answer is they took out race

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Speaker 5: as a factor and for for people to consider. And

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Speaker 5: the only place we think it can still go on

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Speaker 5: is the military. And so this is the one exception,

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Speaker 5: which is they say you can you can take account

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Speaker 5: of diversity with account to the military, and as just

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Speaker 5: as Jackson notes, it's basically saying like, we want black

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Speaker 5: and brown kids.

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Speaker 6: To go to the bunker, but not to the boardroom, right.

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Speaker 1: And an Arima, you're you're I mean you You've laid

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Speaker 1: out so many things, and you know this idea that

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Speaker 1: we're like post civil rights, post racial which is part

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Speaker 1: of of Chief Justices Robert's argument that we don't need

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Speaker 1: this anymore, And all of your work of showing just

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Speaker 1: how segregated and unequal the country is still it's just

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Speaker 1: such a farce.

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Speaker 3: Can I add one thought on this? I am upset

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Speaker 3: about what you just described. I mean, the disadvantage, the privilege,

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Speaker 3: the segregated schools, the lack of resources, the pathways to

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Speaker 3: dead ends, all of it.

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Speaker 2: It's all there.

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Speaker 3: But look, the Constitution does not protect or guarantee class equality.

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Speaker 2: The Constitution doesn't give us shit.

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Speaker 3: About poor people. It doesn't care about opportunity structures they have.

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Speaker 3: So there is actually some basis for the Court to say,

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Speaker 3: we don't care about legacy, we don't care about white privilege,

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Speaker 3: and we understand that it can be passed on, but

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Speaker 3: that is not what we're solving for here.

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Speaker 2: So the problem we have because of the.

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court decision, this notion that the Constitution guarantees colorblindness,

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Speaker 3: but there is no amendment for poor people's rights in

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Speaker 3: this legacy debate, whether they happen to be black or

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Speaker 3: South Asian or Latino or anything when it comes to

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Speaker 3: getting into college.

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Speaker 5: So this is where the Constitution ends up playing out

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Speaker 5: in really perverse ways.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 5: So what the Supreme Court and others have said, right

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Speaker 5: is that class is not something that we are is

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Speaker 5: protected in America. So if you're poor, as you just said,

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Speaker 5: if you're poor, you are lower income, you don't have

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Speaker 5: the kind of wealth that other people around you might have.

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Speaker 5: There's there's no you know, sort of ways in which

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Speaker 5: we try to address you being discriminated against, or if

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Speaker 5: there are barriers about that, or there's opportunities you don't

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Speaker 5: have because of your class. That's not something that the

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Speaker 5: Constitution is worried about. On the flip side, it says

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Speaker 5: if if things map because of race, if you're discriminating

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Speaker 5: against because of race, or if you want to take

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Speaker 5: race into account in some ways, we're actually going to

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Speaker 5: apply the hardest legal standard to that. Whenever race comes

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Speaker 5: into play, We're going to look at it really, really closely,

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Speaker 5: and so it just ends up being a strange We're

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Speaker 5: in a strange place to begin with. And then just

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Speaker 5: to put this in there, what Chief Jofice Justice Roberts does,

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Speaker 5: which is just extreme, you know, it's mind boggling again,

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Speaker 5: which is what he says is it doesn't really matter

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Speaker 5: if you're using race in a way to benefit people

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Speaker 5: or to discriminate or harm people. What he's saying is,

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Speaker 5: you know, you can't stop discrimination on the basis of

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Speaker 5: race by discriminating on the basis of race. That's coming

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Speaker 5: from another decision in two thousand and seven about a

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Speaker 5: diversity in K through twelve schools. So he said that

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Speaker 5: that then, and he's what he says here is anytime

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Speaker 5: you're using race, someone might benefit, but someone's gonna lose,

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Speaker 5: and so you can't use it.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 5: This is where the USUS Jackson and Justice Soda Mayor

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Speaker 5: are just like, what world are you in? Because you're

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Speaker 5: basically saying, we are in a society that is mapped

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Speaker 5: by race, and then you have to be color blind, right,

441
00:21:50,596 --> 00:21:52,116
Speaker 5: and then you have to be colored blind. And so

442
00:21:52,476 --> 00:21:54,476
Speaker 5: that is what you're getting from Chief Justice Roberts is

443
00:21:54,516 --> 00:21:58,436
Speaker 5: basically a complete lack of regard to the way in

444
00:21:58,476 --> 00:22:01,876
Speaker 5: which race still has a role in all kinds of

445
00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:06,676
Speaker 5: measurable and concrete ways in America. Right, He's just ignoring

446
00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:09,636
Speaker 5: all of it and saying, yeah, just in this one moment,

447
00:22:09,916 --> 00:22:11,876
Speaker 5: we don't want to use race because it makes us

448
00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:16,756
Speaker 5: feel icky, right, But we're not talking about the fact

449
00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:19,276
Speaker 5: that everything that leads up to that moment, from pre

450
00:22:19,396 --> 00:22:22,676
Speaker 5: k to twelfth grade, the ways that play race plays

451
00:22:22,676 --> 00:22:24,316
Speaker 5: out into whether or not you even have a shot

452
00:22:24,916 --> 00:22:27,276
Speaker 5: at that admissions moment. We're just going to ignore all

453
00:22:27,396 --> 00:22:29,916
Speaker 5: that because we just want to make sure that one

454
00:22:29,916 --> 00:22:31,636
Speaker 5: little moment is colorblind.

455
00:22:31,476 --> 00:22:34,716
Speaker 1: Right right, all right, anarema. You said that this case

456
00:22:35,356 --> 00:22:38,356
Speaker 1: actually used Asian American students as part of the lawsuit,

457
00:22:38,476 --> 00:22:41,476
Speaker 1: and that they were being discriminated against places like Harvard

458
00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:44,276
Speaker 1: where they make up about twenty nine percent of the students,

459
00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:47,316
Speaker 1: and the idea that there could be even be more.

460
00:22:49,196 --> 00:22:53,596
Speaker 1: I'm interested. You were in the courtroom when these cases

461
00:22:53,596 --> 00:22:57,636
Speaker 1: were heard. Can you describe, like, who is actually who

462
00:22:57,676 --> 00:23:01,236
Speaker 1: the plaintiffs were, what they look like racially? Even so,

463
00:23:01,356 --> 00:23:01,756
Speaker 1: I was in.

464
00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:06,276
Speaker 5: The Supreme Court when the Harvard and UNC cases were argued,

465
00:23:06,596 --> 00:23:07,996
Speaker 5: and I was in the first row of the Supreme

466
00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:09,916
Speaker 5: Court bar section, which means I'm basically in their first

467
00:23:09,916 --> 00:23:12,956
Speaker 5: world of the courtroom, and in front of me arguing

468
00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:18,956
Speaker 5: for Chinese students were six white men. So Students for

469
00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:21,516
Speaker 5: Fair Admission says they have about twenty thousand.

470
00:23:21,156 --> 00:23:23,796
Speaker 6: Members, but they don't tell you who those members are.

471
00:23:24,076 --> 00:23:27,756
Speaker 5: And throughout the entirety of the Harvard case, there is

472
00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:33,436
Speaker 5: not one Asian student who came out to testify in

473
00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:38,676
Speaker 5: court about the discrimination that they experienced. So the plaintiff

474
00:23:38,716 --> 00:23:42,316
Speaker 5: here is not Asian or Chinese students. It is this

475
00:23:42,436 --> 00:23:45,316
Speaker 5: organization we don't know who the members are, that is

476
00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:47,556
Speaker 5: led by a guy named Ed Bloom, And Ed Bloom

477
00:23:47,636 --> 00:23:51,196
Speaker 5: is someone who has been bringing cases challenging voting rights,

478
00:23:51,596 --> 00:23:54,356
Speaker 5: challenging the ways in which race has a role in

479
00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:57,436
Speaker 5: trying to promote quality in America in all different parts

480
00:23:57,676 --> 00:23:59,996
Speaker 5: of our lives. And so this is just when I

481
00:23:59,996 --> 00:24:02,676
Speaker 5: say it's a setup. You're setting it up by talking about,

482
00:24:02,756 --> 00:24:06,436
Speaker 5: as we talk, the oldest elite private and public university.

483
00:24:06,796 --> 00:24:09,316
Speaker 5: You're trying, because there has been many attempts to sort

484
00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:11,396
Speaker 5: of have this be on behalf of white students. They

485
00:24:11,436 --> 00:24:14,716
Speaker 5: went to that old trope dividing conquer. Let's try to

486
00:24:14,716 --> 00:24:17,196
Speaker 5: figure out a way to pit communities of color against

487
00:24:17,196 --> 00:24:19,676
Speaker 5: each other and to have you know, if the if

488
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:21,596
Speaker 5: the blame comes down, it's not going to go to

489
00:24:21,596 --> 00:24:23,316
Speaker 5: white people. It's not going to go to those legacy

490
00:24:23,356 --> 00:24:26,636
Speaker 5: or donor communities, right, or students. It's going to go

491
00:24:26,676 --> 00:24:29,636
Speaker 5: to Chinese students or other API students for being the

492
00:24:29,676 --> 00:24:32,916
Speaker 5: reason that in some ways affirmative action or the consideration

493
00:24:32,956 --> 00:24:35,436
Speaker 5: of race got brought down, right, And so this is

494
00:24:35,756 --> 00:24:37,996
Speaker 5: this is this is old, old tropes that go back

495
00:24:37,996 --> 00:24:39,916
Speaker 5: to even you know, in the Supreme Court one hundred

496
00:24:39,996 --> 00:24:42,636
Speaker 5: years ago, when there were a lot of cases around

497
00:24:42,636 --> 00:24:45,876
Speaker 5: who's white in America? And you see, you know, different people,

498
00:24:45,956 --> 00:24:48,716
Speaker 5: different racial and ethnic backgrounds trying to demonstrate that they're

499
00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:52,076
Speaker 5: white and and by they demonstrate it by trying to,

500
00:24:52,356 --> 00:24:54,356
Speaker 5: you know, show how they're different from other people of color.

501
00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:56,596
Speaker 5: So when you think about the Court that day, it's

502
00:24:56,716 --> 00:25:03,036
Speaker 5: just another example of our communities being used to to

503
00:25:03,316 --> 00:25:06,476
Speaker 5: for some people to hold power and to continue their

504
00:25:06,636 --> 00:25:09,116
Speaker 5: grip on power in this country and on the narrati,

505
00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:11,996
Speaker 5: and so we end up in a situation where we're

506
00:25:12,036 --> 00:25:13,036
Speaker 5: trying to fit their narrative.

507
00:25:13,036 --> 00:25:14,076
Speaker 6: And so this you know.

508
00:25:14,116 --> 00:25:16,796
Speaker 5: The thing that just struck me in court is that

509
00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:20,756
Speaker 5: you have Justice Clarence Thomas sitting there over and over

510
00:25:20,876 --> 00:25:23,156
Speaker 5: go and being like, you know, I don't know what

511
00:25:23,196 --> 00:25:24,356
Speaker 5: this diversity thing.

512
00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:26,236
Speaker 6: Is, Like I don't know what it means.

513
00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:28,716
Speaker 5: And I'm like, first of all, y'all came up with it,

514
00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:31,156
Speaker 5: like the Supreme Court isn't want it, came up with it.

515
00:25:31,316 --> 00:25:33,436
Speaker 5: And secondly, I just wanted someone to look at him

516
00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:35,596
Speaker 5: and be like, I don't know, you tell me, it's

517
00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:38,436
Speaker 5: the only reason you're here, like at some level, like

518
00:25:38,956 --> 00:25:42,196
Speaker 5: it's just the idea that you're questioning. You know, the

519
00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:44,996
Speaker 5: very ways in which you've set up the structure and

520
00:25:45,036 --> 00:25:47,756
Speaker 5: the system, and you've benefited from it, you know, like

521
00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,556
Speaker 5: Clarace Thomas has benefited from the very thing that he

522
00:25:50,596 --> 00:25:53,076
Speaker 5: doesn't know what it is or how it exists, right, you.

523
00:25:53,036 --> 00:25:55,756
Speaker 3: Know, Anoreima, I just want to clarify here that Justice

524
00:25:55,796 --> 00:25:59,196
Speaker 3: Thomas did, in fact get into Yale in nineteen seventy one,

525
00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:01,836
Speaker 3: and this is the same year they started an affirmative

526
00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:04,436
Speaker 3: action program. So there is no question that the guy

527
00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:06,436
Speaker 3: who's been the only person of color on the bench

528
00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:11,596
Speaker 3: for nearly twenty years benefited directly from affirmative action. But

529
00:26:11,676 --> 00:26:15,596
Speaker 3: here's the interesting thing. His dislike of affirmative action is

530
00:26:15,676 --> 00:26:19,996
Speaker 3: precisely because he took it personal that people could question

531
00:26:20,156 --> 00:26:23,356
Speaker 3: whether he qualified to get into Yale, and so he

532
00:26:23,436 --> 00:26:26,596
Speaker 3: has seen affirmative action as a stigma that is attached

533
00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:31,396
Speaker 3: to black people, which is unfair. It's his own personal commitment.

534
00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:35,636
Speaker 3: In this Supreme Court decision, he actually makes the argument

535
00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:39,876
Speaker 3: that by getting rid of any form of racial discrimination

536
00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:42,716
Speaker 3: in his own language that even would help black people,

537
00:26:43,116 --> 00:26:47,316
Speaker 3: he is upholding the truest principle of equality. He sees

538
00:26:47,396 --> 00:26:51,836
Speaker 3: himself as the true vanguard of racial equality in America.

539
00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:54,996
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just absolutely bizarre, because of course, at

540
00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:57,796
Speaker 3: the end of the day, you'd have to whitewash or

541
00:26:57,836 --> 00:27:00,916
Speaker 3: make disappear all of the systemic racism it still exists

542
00:27:00,956 --> 00:27:01,556
Speaker 3: in our country.

543
00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:04,476
Speaker 5: You know, I didn't do what Coyle did, which is

544
00:27:04,556 --> 00:27:08,156
Speaker 5: I didn't bother to spend my time reading Justice Thomas's

545
00:27:08,196 --> 00:27:12,196
Speaker 5: opinion because I'm not going to sit here and try

546
00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:16,116
Speaker 5: and understand how you could cast something like Brown versus

547
00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:18,996
Speaker 5: about Board of Education as a moment of color blindness.

548
00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:23,076
Speaker 5: Brown versus Board of Education was a moment of extraordinary

549
00:27:23,116 --> 00:27:27,076
Speaker 5: recognition of the ways in which race has mapped. You

550
00:27:27,116 --> 00:27:29,196
Speaker 5: know what kind of opportunity we have, the ways in

551
00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:31,236
Speaker 5: which has played out in terms of segregation. And so

552
00:27:31,316 --> 00:27:34,676
Speaker 5: for us, as Thomas, to say anything different about you know,

553
00:27:34,796 --> 00:27:37,836
Speaker 5: what the law says, or the Constitution says, or even

554
00:27:37,876 --> 00:27:42,276
Speaker 5: what Brown says, is something that again is trying to

555
00:27:42,436 --> 00:27:45,756
Speaker 5: all of a sudden we cast words in ways that

556
00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:48,676
Speaker 5: have the most limited meaning and don't mean anything in

557
00:27:48,756 --> 00:27:52,596
Speaker 5: terms of how we actually live and learn and educate

558
00:27:53,276 --> 00:27:57,236
Speaker 5: and love and promote something different in the world today.

559
00:27:57,556 --> 00:28:01,076
Speaker 3: So, Anoreema, I mean, obviously I think this is personal

560
00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:03,596
Speaker 3: for all of us, you know, in this conversation in

561
00:28:04,436 --> 00:28:07,396
Speaker 3: same and maybe even slightly different ways. I know, for me,

562
00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:12,036
Speaker 3: I had a numberumber of Asian American students who I

563
00:28:12,076 --> 00:28:14,796
Speaker 3: was teaching at the time that Harvard first won the

564
00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:18,316
Speaker 3: case in the Lower courts, and so there's been an

565
00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:23,196
Speaker 3: ongoing conversation on the Harvard campus. There's been organizing, and

566
00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:26,196
Speaker 3: one of the things I was struck by was diversity

567
00:28:26,276 --> 00:28:29,916
Speaker 3: amongst the AAPI community. Many of my students, who often

568
00:28:29,956 --> 00:28:32,076
Speaker 3: self select into a course which I teach about the

569
00:28:32,116 --> 00:28:35,156
Speaker 3: history of racism, saw this for what you and I

570
00:28:35,196 --> 00:28:38,516
Speaker 3: would agree was a setup, a way of further dismantling

571
00:28:38,996 --> 00:28:41,716
Speaker 3: the opportunity structures in this country to deny and erase

572
00:28:41,756 --> 00:28:44,556
Speaker 3: the history of racism and the ongoing problem systemic racism.

573
00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:48,836
Speaker 3: But for other students on campus, who sometimes indexed as

574
00:28:48,916 --> 00:28:54,316
Speaker 3: first generation Chinese immigrant students, there was this sense of

575
00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:59,116
Speaker 3: we are defending meritocracy. We want the system to work

576
00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:04,036
Speaker 3: this way. Colorblind, I mean within your community, and I'm

577
00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:08,156
Speaker 3: speaking specifically here of Asian American community, is their diversity?

578
00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:10,396
Speaker 3: I mean, did you have to have arguments with people

579
00:29:10,476 --> 00:29:13,196
Speaker 3: you know or one degree removed from folks you know

580
00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:14,276
Speaker 3: about this issue.

581
00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:18,596
Speaker 5: So to close question, yes, there's diversity, And I think

582
00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:22,436
Speaker 5: part of it goes to this very question that Ben

583
00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:24,556
Speaker 5: posed about, like what's the definition of merit? And if

584
00:29:24,596 --> 00:29:28,276
Speaker 5: you and we define merit based on test scores, right,

585
00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:31,996
Speaker 5: which is in the in the in the Asian American community,

586
00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:34,596
Speaker 5: and frankly in a lot of communities in which, like

587
00:29:34,996 --> 00:29:37,356
Speaker 5: you know, there's this idea of test scores or how

588
00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:40,236
Speaker 5: you do in terms of your grades being the measure

589
00:29:40,316 --> 00:29:43,676
Speaker 5: of your worth. What happens when we tell people that

590
00:29:43,836 --> 00:29:47,756
Speaker 5: test scores and your grades are what you are worth

591
00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:51,836
Speaker 5: which we know are heavily, if not, you know, almost

592
00:29:51,876 --> 00:29:55,836
Speaker 5: exclusively influenced by things like wealth and income. Right, you know,

593
00:29:55,876 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 5: whether or not you can take a test prep course,

594
00:29:57,556 --> 00:29:59,596
Speaker 5: whether or not you're able to actually even have the

595
00:29:59,596 --> 00:30:02,436
Speaker 5: opportunity to learn. In New York City schools, you know,

596
00:30:02,476 --> 00:30:04,236
Speaker 5: most kids don't even have the opportunity to learn the

597
00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:06,476
Speaker 5: things that are being tested on to get into sort

598
00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:09,076
Speaker 5: of specialized elite high schools. Right, They're not learning it.

599
00:30:09,396 --> 00:30:11,156
Speaker 5: And so the only way to get there is to

600
00:30:11,276 --> 00:30:13,396
Speaker 5: be able to, you know, take a test prep course

601
00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:15,516
Speaker 5: or be in a private school. And so when you

602
00:30:15,556 --> 00:30:17,076
Speaker 5: say you sit there and thinking about that, you're like,

603
00:30:17,316 --> 00:30:18,876
Speaker 5: this is this is this is the first.

604
00:30:18,676 --> 00:30:19,516
Speaker 6: Problem of merit.

605
00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:22,396
Speaker 5: Then those are problems of how we see ourselves, right,

606
00:30:22,436 --> 00:30:26,156
Speaker 5: and do we see ourselves as those who are part

607
00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:30,036
Speaker 5: of a larger community, right, in which we have a

608
00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:33,196
Speaker 5: lot that unites us with people who are different than us.

609
00:30:33,236 --> 00:30:34,956
Speaker 5: And this is where, you know, I'll go again back

610
00:30:34,996 --> 00:30:37,476
Speaker 5: to Kenwood, which is, you know, that's what I got

611
00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:40,436
Speaker 5: the privilege and the honor of learning early, which is

612
00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:43,476
Speaker 5: to go to an elementary school on the South side

613
00:30:43,476 --> 00:30:45,716
Speaker 5: of Chicago that was largely black, and to go to

614
00:30:45,716 --> 00:30:48,316
Speaker 5: a high school that was largely black, right, and to

615
00:30:48,436 --> 00:30:51,276
Speaker 5: recognize that there are so much the stories that we

616
00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:54,116
Speaker 5: are being told about ourselves are not actually the reality

617
00:30:54,156 --> 00:30:57,276
Speaker 5: of of of who we are and how weird and

618
00:30:57,396 --> 00:31:00,076
Speaker 5: nerdy and strange, you know, the two of you and

619
00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:01,796
Speaker 5: the rest of us have been, you know, like that's

620
00:31:01,956 --> 00:31:04,156
Speaker 5: that's that's actually true, right, And we need to be

621
00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:07,996
Speaker 5: able to celebrate that in and celebrate ourselves in all

622
00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:11,156
Speaker 5: of all of the things that we're worthy of being,

623
00:31:11,316 --> 00:31:14,516
Speaker 5: right and and not just narrow ourselves to test scores

624
00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:16,676
Speaker 5: and GPA. And that's what these cases we're trying to

625
00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:19,276
Speaker 5: do is suggest that that's the only thing that we

626
00:31:19,356 --> 00:31:21,996
Speaker 5: need to be sort of measuring people on. And So

627
00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:24,836
Speaker 5: this is a setup because not only because it's Harvard

628
00:31:24,876 --> 00:31:26,636
Speaker 5: and U and C. Not only because it was Asian

629
00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:29,156
Speaker 5: American students, not only because it's divide and conquer, but

630
00:31:29,196 --> 00:31:33,076
Speaker 5: in a moment in America in which you know, there's

631
00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:36,076
Speaker 5: an image that's trying to be created, right of all

632
00:31:36,116 --> 00:31:39,756
Speaker 5: of us fighting amongst ourselves, and this not being a

633
00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:41,996
Speaker 5: moment of white people really trying to hold on the

634
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:46,796
Speaker 5: power and to erase in some ways our stories. Outside

635
00:31:46,876 --> 00:31:50,036
Speaker 5: of these concrete, measurable things that they say we have

636
00:31:50,076 --> 00:31:51,516
Speaker 5: to demonstrate, all right, and.

637
00:31:51,516 --> 00:31:53,116
Speaker 1: To remember, we're going to take a quick break, we're

638
00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:54,836
Speaker 1: going to come back and we're going to talk about

639
00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:57,676
Speaker 1: what this decision means for the future. I also want

640
00:31:57,716 --> 00:31:59,676
Speaker 1: to say when you said our high school is weird,

641
00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:02,916
Speaker 1: strange and nerdy, that you pointed at Khalil when you

642
00:32:02,956 --> 00:32:05,476
Speaker 1: said nerdy. We'll be right back after the break.

643
00:32:05,916 --> 00:32:10,796
Speaker 5: I was looking at you, though, I was looking at you.

644
00:32:22,916 --> 00:32:24,236
Speaker 2: So look, Ben, I had a theory.

645
00:32:24,236 --> 00:32:26,676
Speaker 3: It was a light bulb moment just before the last

646
00:32:26,716 --> 00:32:31,996
Speaker 3: break that the nuttiness of this decision, it turns out,

647
00:32:32,396 --> 00:32:36,476
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with Chief Justice John Roberts or

648
00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:38,436
Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas.

649
00:32:39,356 --> 00:32:40,596
Speaker 2: It was chat GPT.

650
00:32:41,596 --> 00:32:47,316
Speaker 3: Chat GPT wrote this decision that explained everything, because of course,

651
00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:51,556
Speaker 3: AI only knows what the Constitution says. It doesn't know

652
00:32:51,636 --> 00:32:55,596
Speaker 3: anything about all this soft and squishy stuff like bias

653
00:32:55,796 --> 00:33:00,276
Speaker 3: and stereotype thread and systemic racism because guess what, we

654
00:33:00,316 --> 00:33:03,516
Speaker 3: live in a country that doesn't keep track of racism.

655
00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:07,196
Speaker 3: There are no benchmarks on racism. Hell, the Supreme Court

656
00:33:07,276 --> 00:33:11,356
Speaker 3: doesn't even recognize racial dispair as evidence of racism. So

657
00:33:11,476 --> 00:33:15,596
Speaker 3: of course artificial intelligence wrote this Supreme Court decision, man,

658
00:33:15,676 --> 00:33:17,396
Speaker 3: oh man, that explains everything.

659
00:33:17,596 --> 00:33:21,316
Speaker 1: And Clarence Thomas. Clarence Thomas is so lazy man saying

660
00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:22,636
Speaker 1: that he's race.

661
00:33:22,916 --> 00:33:29,036
Speaker 7: My daughter Justice said no, He's spoken the least of

662
00:33:29,076 --> 00:33:33,196
Speaker 7: any justice ever and is also the longest servance justice ever.

663
00:33:33,356 --> 00:33:38,396
Speaker 1: Painfully all right, maybe maybe, okay, let's talk about what

664
00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:40,756
Speaker 1: this decision means for the future. For the future, first

665
00:33:40,796 --> 00:33:46,156
Speaker 1: of college admissions and the racial makeup of classrooms. All right,

666
00:33:46,236 --> 00:33:50,716
Speaker 1: So we know that schools still want to like have

667
00:33:50,796 --> 00:33:53,676
Speaker 1: diverse classrooms, most of the of these elite schools do.

668
00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:57,276
Speaker 1: And you know, let's think about other proxies for race

669
00:33:57,316 --> 00:33:59,596
Speaker 1: that they might use, and what are some other implications

670
00:33:59,596 --> 00:33:59,876
Speaker 1: of this.

671
00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:03,836
Speaker 5: So my view is that the two hundred selective colleges

672
00:34:03,836 --> 00:34:05,636
Speaker 5: and universities that we're talking about are going to figure

673
00:34:05,636 --> 00:34:07,596
Speaker 5: this out, right, and they're going to figure it out

674
00:34:07,636 --> 00:34:10,356
Speaker 5: in a whole bunch of ways in which they've already

675
00:34:10,396 --> 00:34:13,516
Speaker 5: been working. And there have been nine states across America

676
00:34:13,516 --> 00:34:15,316
Speaker 5: that already were in a position where they couldn't take

677
00:34:15,316 --> 00:34:17,316
Speaker 5: account of race, and the way that this Preme Court

678
00:34:17,396 --> 00:34:19,876
Speaker 5: just ruled you can't. So we have some places where

679
00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:22,676
Speaker 5: people have been looking at this and so other ways

680
00:34:22,676 --> 00:34:25,116
Speaker 5: in which we can think about opening up pathways. It

681
00:34:25,156 --> 00:34:29,316
Speaker 5: can be everything from looking at students, neighborhoods, opportunity indexes.

682
00:34:29,396 --> 00:34:31,796
Speaker 5: There's lots of ways to do this. I think the

683
00:34:31,836 --> 00:34:34,196
Speaker 5: more important part about these cases are what they are

684
00:34:34,196 --> 00:34:38,636
Speaker 5: trying to signal, right, And and as Clill knows well,

685
00:34:38,796 --> 00:34:42,476
Speaker 5: there there are efforts around this country, in Florida and

686
00:34:42,516 --> 00:34:46,676
Speaker 5: Texas most prominently, to to really erase the ways in

687
00:34:46,716 --> 00:34:50,196
Speaker 5: which rape race plays a role in our societies. You know,

688
00:34:50,236 --> 00:34:52,436
Speaker 5: we can we can talk about Juneteenth, but we can't

689
00:34:52,436 --> 00:34:55,556
Speaker 5: teach it. And we know that this this decision is

690
00:34:55,596 --> 00:34:57,396
Speaker 5: already being used by a lot of people, not only

691
00:34:57,436 --> 00:35:00,316
Speaker 5: in those two states but around the country for something

692
00:35:00,316 --> 00:35:03,036
Speaker 5: that it doesn't even say, right, I mean, it doesn't

693
00:35:03,036 --> 00:35:05,476
Speaker 5: say that that all of a sudden, this means you

694
00:35:05,516 --> 00:35:08,116
Speaker 5: can't you know, you can't teach certain things, or you

695
00:35:08,156 --> 00:35:10,596
Speaker 5: can't you can't look at thing like black history, but

696
00:35:10,596 --> 00:35:12,556
Speaker 5: people are going to use it that way. It doesn't

697
00:35:12,556 --> 00:35:15,236
Speaker 5: say that you can have diversity, equity inclusion programs, but

698
00:35:15,236 --> 00:35:16,796
Speaker 5: people are going to try to use it that way.

699
00:35:17,196 --> 00:35:19,596
Speaker 5: And so this is this is like, this is a

700
00:35:19,636 --> 00:35:24,076
Speaker 5: decision that some people were waiting for just so they

701
00:35:24,076 --> 00:35:27,556
Speaker 5: could say, Hey, we're done with this whole post George

702
00:35:27,556 --> 00:35:31,036
Speaker 5: Floyd diversity moment we were having, and and we want

703
00:35:31,076 --> 00:35:33,676
Speaker 5: to again hold on to power in terms of white

704
00:35:33,716 --> 00:35:35,676
Speaker 5: communities in the way that we have for a long time,

705
00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:37,916
Speaker 5: and don't want to have to go and engage with people.

706
00:35:38,196 --> 00:35:40,156
Speaker 6: That's what that's what these cases are going to are

707
00:35:40,516 --> 00:35:42,836
Speaker 6: being wielded as a tool for.

708
00:35:43,396 --> 00:35:46,356
Speaker 5: Whether or not they're actually what this was about. And again,

709
00:35:46,396 --> 00:35:51,316
Speaker 5: this was really about higher education selective, very narrow set

710
00:35:51,316 --> 00:35:52,236
Speaker 5: of circumstances.

711
00:35:53,036 --> 00:35:55,036
Speaker 6: But but it's going.

712
00:35:55,036 --> 00:35:56,916
Speaker 5: To be used to to really question our freedom to

713
00:35:56,996 --> 00:36:00,476
Speaker 5: learn and our freedom to be ourselves.

714
00:36:00,796 --> 00:36:03,356
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well I love you mentioning freedom to learn,

715
00:36:03,436 --> 00:36:07,236
Speaker 3: which some people know has been an effort to push

716
00:36:07,276 --> 00:36:11,476
Speaker 3: back against all the anti coracier legislation around the country.

717
00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:16,916
Speaker 3: This decision sits squarely within a larger moment that is

718
00:36:16,956 --> 00:36:21,436
Speaker 3: pushing back against every effort to deal with the unfinished

719
00:36:21,876 --> 00:36:24,676
Speaker 3: problems of the civil rights movement, which is to say,

720
00:36:25,036 --> 00:36:28,396
Speaker 3: the problems of the systemic racism, the problems of redlining,

721
00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:31,476
Speaker 3: the problems of a criminal justice system that nobody would

722
00:36:31,516 --> 00:36:35,196
Speaker 3: disagree has shown time and time again to have explicit

723
00:36:35,236 --> 00:36:39,516
Speaker 3: evidence of racist bias in the treatment of black defendants

724
00:36:40,116 --> 00:36:44,236
Speaker 3: compared to their white counterparts. Part of what is articulated

725
00:36:44,276 --> 00:36:49,476
Speaker 3: in this decision is a very clear notion that any

726
00:36:49,516 --> 00:36:55,356
Speaker 3: form of race consciousness is unconstitutional. And so to your

727
00:36:55,436 --> 00:37:00,716
Speaker 3: point that first today it's affirmative action, Tomorrow it will

728
00:37:00,716 --> 00:37:04,396
Speaker 3: be DEI, tomorrow will be minority scholarships, it might even

729
00:37:04,436 --> 00:37:08,876
Speaker 3: be a lawsuit to go after funding for HBCUs as

730
00:37:08,956 --> 00:37:12,436
Speaker 3: inherently discriminatory. I mean, I'm not trying to see ideas

731
00:37:12,476 --> 00:37:16,916
Speaker 3: for these people, but I mean that's how capacious The

732
00:37:17,116 --> 00:37:20,356
Speaker 3: underlying logic of this decision is.

733
00:37:20,476 --> 00:37:22,756
Speaker 2: Should we be that afraid? Ana Marima? Am i am

734
00:37:22,756 --> 00:37:23,676
Speaker 2: I exaggerating?

735
00:37:24,916 --> 00:37:28,076
Speaker 5: We should absolutely be that afraid, because what's behind this

736
00:37:28,436 --> 00:37:31,196
Speaker 5: is an idea for us to believe that America is

737
00:37:31,236 --> 00:37:33,956
Speaker 5: not big enough for us all to succeed, right. The

738
00:37:34,036 --> 00:37:36,956
Speaker 5: idea behind all this is to say that in order

739
00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:40,316
Speaker 5: for somebody to be able to thrive, somebody else is

740
00:37:40,316 --> 00:37:42,796
Speaker 5: being harmed, right, And so if we're always at each

741
00:37:42,796 --> 00:37:45,796
Speaker 5: other's throats, that's like, that's where you get the division

742
00:37:45,796 --> 00:37:47,956
Speaker 5: that we're seeing in America today. And so not only

743
00:37:47,956 --> 00:37:50,716
Speaker 5: do we see this real effort to divide us and

744
00:37:50,796 --> 00:37:55,876
Speaker 5: to suggest everybody that we're always always competing or for survival,

745
00:37:56,076 --> 00:37:59,436
Speaker 5: you know, against people who are of different races in us. Right,

746
00:37:59,476 --> 00:38:01,596
Speaker 5: But it's also exactly what you just said. This is

747
00:38:01,636 --> 00:38:04,276
Speaker 5: absolutely not about finding a solution. If it was about

748
00:38:04,316 --> 00:38:06,116
Speaker 5: finding a solution, you would do you would try to

749
00:38:06,116 --> 00:38:08,036
Speaker 5: find a solution and the easiest way possible to get

750
00:38:08,036 --> 00:38:09,516
Speaker 5: to where you want to get to. If we want

751
00:38:09,516 --> 00:38:11,916
Speaker 5: to we get to a place where our institutions are

752
00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:15,836
Speaker 5: places where people can thrive, you know, according to their talent,

753
00:38:16,476 --> 00:38:19,876
Speaker 5: then we would do we would continue to have ways

754
00:38:19,916 --> 00:38:23,156
Speaker 5: in which we account for people's racial experiences and the

755
00:38:23,236 --> 00:38:25,796
Speaker 5: kind of obstacles they faced. So what we're doing here

756
00:38:25,876 --> 00:38:27,516
Speaker 5: is like making this just a hell of a lot

757
00:38:27,516 --> 00:38:32,236
Speaker 5: harder and suggesting that any consideration of race is a problem,

758
00:38:32,636 --> 00:38:35,036
Speaker 5: is something that we should be afraid of, and the

759
00:38:35,076 --> 00:38:36,636
Speaker 5: only thing that's going to do is to make us

760
00:38:36,636 --> 00:38:37,756
Speaker 5: more afraid and more divided.

761
00:38:39,436 --> 00:38:41,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just want to underline some of the things

762
00:38:41,396 --> 00:38:44,236
Speaker 1: you guys are saying that I'm hearing that it does

763
00:38:44,356 --> 00:38:47,276
Speaker 1: matter who gets into these two hundred elite schools in

764
00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:50,876
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, but now it actually has real

765
00:38:50,996 --> 00:38:54,636
Speaker 1: ramifications for who might be in a workplace. And then

766
00:38:54,676 --> 00:38:57,756
Speaker 1: it is also a signal. It's indicative of what's going

767
00:38:57,756 --> 00:38:59,796
Speaker 1: on in the country. I mean, I think about what

768
00:39:00,996 --> 00:39:06,036
Speaker 1: Justices Roberts and Thomas said, you know, of denying what's

769
00:39:06,036 --> 00:39:09,116
Speaker 1: happening in the reality of the present and the past,

770
00:39:09,876 --> 00:39:11,916
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what you guys are saying. That's what's

771
00:39:11,956 --> 00:39:14,556
Speaker 1: going on in terms of race in the country right now.

772
00:39:14,796 --> 00:39:18,396
Speaker 1: We can't talk about the realities of discrimination or inequality,

773
00:39:18,716 --> 00:39:21,996
Speaker 1: and we're not honest about our past, and that is

774
00:39:22,076 --> 00:39:25,196
Speaker 1: written into these majority decisions. It's right there.

775
00:39:25,916 --> 00:39:30,196
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, the paradigm of color blindness is coming back

776
00:39:30,276 --> 00:39:34,636
Speaker 3: with a vengeance. I mean, we've got Republican primary candidates

777
00:39:34,636 --> 00:39:37,796
Speaker 3: for whom this is like the key talking point. You know,

778
00:39:37,836 --> 00:39:42,916
Speaker 3: we need color blindness. The Governor Ron de Santis redefined diversity, equity,

779
00:39:42,916 --> 00:39:48,196
Speaker 3: and inclusion down in Florida as color blindness, merit and equality,

780
00:39:49,436 --> 00:39:52,356
Speaker 3: which you know, in a way, and here's the irony

781
00:39:52,396 --> 00:39:55,916
Speaker 3: for me as a historian, like the plus versus Ferguson

782
00:39:55,956 --> 00:40:01,756
Speaker 3: decision made the argument that in terms of political equality

783
00:40:01,796 --> 00:40:05,156
Speaker 3: and civil equality civil rights equality, black people were equivalent,

784
00:40:05,476 --> 00:40:08,676
Speaker 3: but they were fundamentally inferior, and that the Constitution had

785
00:40:08,756 --> 00:40:14,396
Speaker 3: no no obligation to ensure social equality when one race

786
00:40:14,476 --> 00:40:17,636
Speaker 3: be inferior to another. And it seems to me that

787
00:40:17,756 --> 00:40:23,756
Speaker 3: when this current regime of quote unquote color blindness is resurging,

788
00:40:24,196 --> 00:40:27,476
Speaker 3: part of the argument is if you are in a poor,

789
00:40:27,516 --> 00:40:31,596
Speaker 3: dilapidated school system, if you happen to be in a

790
00:40:31,676 --> 00:40:34,876
Speaker 3: red line zip code and you happen to be inferior

791
00:40:34,916 --> 00:40:37,316
Speaker 3: as a result of it, there is nothing the Constitution

792
00:40:37,436 --> 00:40:41,156
Speaker 3: can do to help you. That is the underlying logic

793
00:40:41,196 --> 00:40:47,116
Speaker 3: of this, and it basically leaves us fighting with the

794
00:40:47,156 --> 00:40:52,396
Speaker 3: same tiny, tiny weapons that folks had back one hundred

795
00:40:52,476 --> 00:40:55,396
Speaker 3: years ago, you know, fifty years before the civil rights movement,

796
00:40:55,676 --> 00:41:00,196
Speaker 3: when they just had to start one little litigation strategy

797
00:41:00,236 --> 00:41:00,676
Speaker 3: at a time.

798
00:41:01,196 --> 00:41:03,636
Speaker 5: Hello, it's actually worse than what you say, because it's

799
00:41:03,636 --> 00:41:05,796
Speaker 5: not even just saying that the Constitution on the law

800
00:41:06,316 --> 00:41:10,476
Speaker 5: can't do anything about it. It's suggesting that it right.

801
00:41:10,556 --> 00:41:13,676
Speaker 5: And so the idea that we're saying that the Constitution

802
00:41:13,756 --> 00:41:18,436
Speaker 5: and law shouldn't address the very fundamental inequalities, that it

803
00:41:18,436 --> 00:41:21,716
Speaker 5: shouldn't do that, and not just that it can't, is

804
00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:24,356
Speaker 5: part of what you're getting from this decision. It's just like,

805
00:41:24,756 --> 00:41:26,196
Speaker 5: you know, we're just going to try to blind eye

806
00:41:26,276 --> 00:41:30,556
Speaker 5: to it at a moment in American history where we

807
00:41:30,556 --> 00:41:32,876
Speaker 5: are as segregated as we were in nineteen seventy and

808
00:41:32,916 --> 00:41:33,996
Speaker 5: we're seeing the kind.

809
00:41:33,836 --> 00:41:37,156
Speaker 6: Of divides that are fueling the kind.

810
00:41:36,956 --> 00:41:42,116
Speaker 5: Of hate and insurrection that we are experiencing in places

811
00:41:42,116 --> 00:41:42,796
Speaker 5: across the nation.

812
00:41:44,196 --> 00:41:46,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean talk about coming full circle that essentially

813
00:41:46,996 --> 00:41:49,916
Speaker 3: our ability to understand and be with each other is

814
00:41:49,956 --> 00:41:53,476
Speaker 3: the only thing that ultimately will save us from everything

815
00:41:53,556 --> 00:41:55,756
Speaker 3: that we see happening in this country right now.

816
00:41:56,916 --> 00:41:58,196
Speaker 2: So we are so happy that you.

817
00:41:58,156 --> 00:42:00,956
Speaker 3: Came on, Ana Rima, truly one of our best friends

818
00:42:01,036 --> 00:42:02,436
Speaker 3: from back in the day, right on.

819
00:42:02,556 --> 00:42:14,436
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ron Arima, Thank you Bob oh Man.

820
00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:17,116
Speaker 3: Aside from being scared to death about what's coming down

821
00:42:17,156 --> 00:42:20,236
Speaker 3: the pike in this country, I have to say, like,

822
00:42:20,556 --> 00:42:22,836
Speaker 3: you know, there was another version of affirmative action from

823
00:42:22,876 --> 00:42:23,396
Speaker 3: back in the day.

824
00:42:23,396 --> 00:42:26,036
Speaker 2: I didn't even realize.

825
00:42:26,556 --> 00:42:28,876
Speaker 3: At a majority black school with all these handsome black

826
00:42:28,876 --> 00:42:32,476
Speaker 3: guys like myself, here you are like this, you know,

827
00:42:32,636 --> 00:42:35,356
Speaker 3: tall handsome Jewish guy who's getting you know, all these

828
00:42:35,356 --> 00:42:36,476
Speaker 3: people crushing on you.

829
00:42:36,756 --> 00:42:42,636
Speaker 1: Man. Affirmative action full effect. You know, but definitely.

830
00:42:42,356 --> 00:42:44,756
Speaker 2: Affirm affirming action.

831
00:42:44,836 --> 00:42:48,436
Speaker 6: That's funny, all right, man, I love you, I love

832
00:42:48,476 --> 00:42:48,796
Speaker 6: you too.

833
00:42:54,316 --> 00:42:56,676
Speaker 3: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of

834
00:42:56,756 --> 00:43:00,636
Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil,

835
00:43:00,716 --> 00:43:03,316
Speaker 3: Jabron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austen.

836
00:43:03,596 --> 00:43:07,476
Speaker 1: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang.

837
00:43:07,996 --> 00:43:11,876
Speaker 1: It's edited by Sarah Nicks, Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang,

838
00:43:12,276 --> 00:43:15,676
Speaker 1: and our managing producer is Constanza Guyardo.

839
00:43:16,036 --> 00:43:20,356
Speaker 2: At Pushkin thanks to Letal Molatt, Julia Barton, Heather Fein,

840
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841
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842
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843
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845
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849
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