WEBVTT - Interview Interlude Playlist, Part 10: Dr. Jeff Hoffman 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:14.800 Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.439 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:20.640 today we've got a very special episode for you all 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.880 out there. We are doing a partnership with National Geographic YEA. 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:27.760 So they've got a new show coming out called One 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:32.000 Strange Rock and it is produced by Darren Aronofsky of 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.280 Mini Movie Fame and all about it's all about the 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.199 science of planet Earth and the sort of intricate interconnected 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:45.080 processes both geological and biological to keep the Earth stable 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:47.960 as a sanctuary for life as we know it. And 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:51.040 in that sense, it has a kind of uh, ecological 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.920 Alexander von Humboldt kind of vibe that I really like. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.320 I like it when you can see the large scale 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.720 and small scale interconnectedness of all things to to make 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.080 the world how it is. Yes, And speaking of Steve, 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.679 this is a visual spectacle. Yeah, it's got a lot 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.080 of really beautiful photography and it's hosted by Will Smith. 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.080 I don't know if he ever says Welcome to Earth, 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:14.560 and it kind of hope so, uh, And it it 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.399 tells stories through the experiences of a large cast of 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.640 real life astronauts who are the only humans ever to 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:24.560 venture beyond the shield that protects us from the universe 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:27.040 at large. And so because of our partnership with National 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.080 Geographic for this episode, we got an opportunity to talk 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.960 to one of the astronauts on the show, Dr Jeff Hoffman, 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.759 who flew five Space Shuttle missions, including a Hubble Space 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.640 telescope repair mission. And this is a great interview. We're 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.040 just delighted to share it with everybody. Yeah. Dr Hoffman 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.520 is very knowledgeable from multiple vantage points about the thing 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.200 that we're gonna be focusing on today, which is the 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:52.280 radiation risk from space and how Earth protects us. And 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.040 he's knowledgeable in a couple of different domains because he's 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:59.120 done high energy astrophysics and knows all about the radiation 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:02.240 environment of our Solar system in the universe at large. 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:04.640 But he also has a direct experience of what it's 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.320 like to be an astronaut out in space to sort 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.960 of go beyond our protective barriers. And that kind of 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.600 perspective is kind of hard to come by because I 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.880 would say, one thing, it's really easy to lose sight 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:18.760 of in your day to day life, when you're reading 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.680 about politics or playing with your dog or making some dinner. 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.720 Is that your body is made of molecules, and in 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.079 order for molecules in your body to do what they do, 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.600 they have to remain what they are. And most of 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.200 the time, the internal chemistry of our bodies is pretty stable, right, 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.080 But we have to recognize that the chemical stability of 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:42.120 our bodies is an enormous and unique privilege provided to 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.640 us by virtue of the fact that we live on 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.200 planet Earth. Yea. And this we get into a truth 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.000 that we touch on quite a bit on the show, 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.800 and that is that Earth is just the right planet 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.480 for life as we know it. Kind of unsurprising, of course, 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.800 being creatures that evolved on planet Earth, that planet Earth 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.560 is just the right planet for us. But despite realizing 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.680 the kind of anthropic obviousness of that fact, it is 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.399 still a kind of strange and comforting feeling. Well, wait 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.360 a minute, is it comforting or is it discomforting? The 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.080 fact that most of the universe is going to be 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:20.000 so hostile to us, so unbelievably hostile, so incredibly violent, 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.960 that it's just impossible to even consider. And I'm not 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.280 even talking about the vaporizing heat of stars or the cold, 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.400 airless void of deep space. I'm talking about the fact 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.760 that the universe is an acid bath of killer radiation, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.680 including ionizing radiation, which often takes the form of these 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:41.480 high energy charged particles that blast through animal bodies, damaging 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.160 and changing the molecules within them as they go along, 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.680 and even changing the DNA of ourselves, altering the blueprints 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:52.120 for cell replication and bringing about tissue damage, sterility, and cancer. 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.680 And so that body integrity and chemical stability we so 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.320 take for granted to keep living is only possible because 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.280 of the planet, the inhabit which shields us from being 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:07.280 blasted by the Sun nearby and by the galaxy at large. Yeah, 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:09.440 it's it's interesting to think about this that we we 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.320 are creatures of the shallows. So life as we know 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.520 it essentially thrives in a tide pool, protected from the 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.680 full onslaught of wind and wave. You know, if you've 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.200 ever been to a to a number of beach environments, 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.080 you've seen those areas right where um, where that the 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.120 waves are crashing but there, but but there's this pool, 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.520 this uh, this area of calm water that is protected 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.280 from all of that, and that's where a lot of 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.560 life can thrive that otherwise would not be able to 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:43.400 bear the hostilities beyond the rocks. And it actually reminds 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:46.800 me of this quote by John Steinbeck Uh and and uh, 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.640 he's not directly talking about what we're talking about here, 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:54.599 but the comparison is just beautiful. He he wrote, the 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.800 knowledge that all things are one thing, and then one 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.919 thing is all things plankton, a shimmering phosphorescence on the sea, 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.960 and the spinning planets and an expanding universe, all bound 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.920 together by the elastic string of time. It is advisable 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.080 to look from the tide pool to the stars and 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.160 then back to the tide pool again. Yeah, our earth 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.280 is protected not from wind and waves, but from the 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.400 full blast of solar and cosmic radiation. Instead of rocky 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.640 sea walls were protected by a robust atmosphere and most importantly, 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.440 the magnetosphere. Yeah. The interesting other side to the fact 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.320 that we've got this kind of connected consciousness that we're 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.040 aware of, Like there is no real division between the 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.599 Earth and the heavens. They're just different places. The only 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.720 real division is distance, And so all the universe really 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.039 is connected and does have a common origin in the 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:48.080 Big Bang. But at the same time that connectedness, we 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.640 use the word connected in such a happy way. It's 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:52.920 like nice to be connected to things. But you can 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.400 also think about that is extreme vulnerability, like you are 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.799 right next door to everything in the universe that would 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.640 Russian annihilate you. And what we've got standing in the 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:07.599 way of those those crushing annihilating forces beyond our power 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.839 to control, is essentially a big magnetic field and a 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.400 thin layer of gas around the rocky surface of the planet. 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.480 That's right. So basically what we have going on here 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.720 is the Earth solid intercore and liquid outer core. They 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.599 play a crucial role in protecting life as we know 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.919 it from deadly deadly radiation. Differences in temperature and composition 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:33.000 in the two core regions drive a powerful dynamo emitting 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.760 Earth project protective electro magnetic field. And remember this is 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.919 one of the key factors we have to consider improposed 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:44.000 interplanetary space travel and establishing stations in other worlds. The 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.479 only planets in our Solar System with some form of 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:51.760 magnetosphere in place our Mercury, Earth, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. Right, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.720 so then, of course you've also on the surface of 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:55.919 the Earth got the atmosphere to count on, because that 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.359 means that there's more stuff that radiation has to get 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:01.839 through to it to you, and so the atmosphere will 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:04.760 block some kinds of incoming radiation. But the other big 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:09.320 protector is the magnetosphere that keeps these particles directed away 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.280 from the Earth. Some of course still get through, right, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.120 And also the magnetosphere serves to protect the atmosphere as well, Yes, 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.960 because if you don't have a magnetosphere, your atmosphere over 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.280 time can be stripped away, which is one of the 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.280 things that they think probably happen to Mars long ago. Right. 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.480 So it's our protective barrier against the elements. It's our battlements. 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.760 And the only humans who have walked these battlements are 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:33.960 astronauts such as Dr Jeff Hoffman. Now, most astronauts never 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.480 even go beyond the shield that protects us, right, we 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.960 know that astronauts in space are exposed to extra levels 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.800 of radiation, and that's one reason you want to limit 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:46.640 your time and space. You're like, you can't go live 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.840 in the I S S forever. They want to bring 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.440 you back eventually because the more time you spend up there, 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.280 the more you're exposed to this dangerous radiation that could 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.320 harm you in the long run. But even up in 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.600 the I s s you're still you're still benefiting from 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.840 a large part of the Earth's protective shield. Right. Yes, 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:04.760 it gets a lot worse if you want to go 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.680 to the Moon, right to Mars, or colonize another planet. Yeah, 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:11.600 because then you're going beyond Earth's protection. So I guess 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:13.720 we want to go now to our conversation with Dr 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.520 Jeff Hoffman UH to talk about the radiation risks posed 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.840 by the universe and what astronauts have done and can 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.200 do to protect themselves. But first I guess we should 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.960 give you just a little bit of background on Dr Hoffman. Yeah, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.720 So his original research interest were in high energy astrophysics, 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.600 specifically cosmic gamma radiation and X ray astronomy, and then 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.200 his doctoral work at Harvard entailed balloon born low energy 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.559 gamma ray telescopes and the design and then the testing 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.840 of this technology. From nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy five. 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:47.280 During post doctoral work at Leicester University, he worked on 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.560 several X ray astronomy rocket payloads, and then he worked 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.880 in the Center for Space Research at the Massachusetts Institute 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.120 of Technology from nineteen seventy five to nineteen seventy eight 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.719 as projects scientist in charge of the orbiting h e 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.080 A oh one A four hard X ray and gamma 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.120 ray experiment, which launched in August ninety seven. But then 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.400 in seventy eight he was selected to become an astronaut 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:14.040 and he went on a total of five different Shuttle flights. 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.280 So in eighty five he went up on a Discovery, 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.760 nineteen ninety on Columbia, two on Atlantis, ninety three on Endeavor, 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:26.439 and then in nine on Columbia. All told, one thousand, 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.520 two hundred and eleven hours in space twenty one point 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:33.400 five million miles. That's a lot of miles. Frequent flyer, Yeah, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.080 so he he is a not only a pedigreed scientist, 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:40.240 of a pedigreed astronaut. Five Shuttle flights, that's impressive. That's 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:45.200 five more than the vast majority of human beings. All right, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.160 we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.040 we will be heading straight into our interview with Dr 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:55.400 Jeff Hoffman. Thank hey, Dr Hoffman, welcome to the show. 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.079 We're really glad to have you well, nice to be here, 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.200 looking forward to it. I was wondering if you'd would 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.040 start off by telling us a little bit about your 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.800 research from before you became an astronaut. What what made 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:11.160 you interested in high energy astrophysics and um, what were 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.640 your pursuits in that field. Well, I grew up with 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.800 an interest in space. I lived in or near New 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:20.600 York City. My dad used to take me to the 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:25.280 planetarium to see the new show every month. UM. I 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.240 saw the birth of the space age. You know, I 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:32.000 was alive whence but Nick was first launched when You're 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:36.720 a Gagaran and John Glenn flew and so. I was 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:41.440 also interested in human spaceflight, although it was apparent to 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.640 me that all the early astronauts were military test pilots 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:49.000 and that was not a career for me. But space 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.960 in general I was fascinated with and went on to 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:56.559 become an astronomer. I got a doctorate in an astrophysics 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:02.520 at Harvard UM, and I was attracted by UH, what 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:06.160 we call high energy astrophysics. It was a totally new 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:11.360 field at the time UM the discovery of X rays 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:16.360 from celestial objects and gamma rays. UM. It was a 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:20.439 new branch of astronomy opening up just like radio astronomy 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:27.000 opened up back in the nineteen thirties. And UM that 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:32.600 struck me as being UH an area where we were 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.720 almost bound to make new discoveries because we had never 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:41.800 looked at this type of radiation before. So my professional 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:47.360 career as an astronomer consisted in designing X ray telescopes 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:52.280 and then putting them into space. First with I was 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.880 using high altitude balloons when I did my pH d thesis, 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.240 and then UM I spent three and a half years 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.640 at Leicester University in England, UH and we had both 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:07.520 sounding rocket experiments where we would put our telescopes up 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.400 above the atmosphere. You have to go above the atmosphere 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.400 because X rays and gamma rays are absorbed in the atmosphere, 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.160 which is a good thing for us here on the ground, 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.440 but it makes life difficult for astronomers because you have 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.800 to go above the atmosphere to see this radiation. And 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:23.720 and that was kind of cool as well, because I 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.800 was always interested in space and rockets and and so 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.840 I was combining the technological interest with what I thought 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.600 was a very exciting scientific field. And then I came 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.560 back to M I t and we we had actually 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.800 our own X ray satellite, and the most exciting research 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.480 that I was doing we discovered these things called X 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.600 ray bursts. You look at an X ray object giving 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.480 out relatively low level of radiation fairly constantly, you know, 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.800 and then all of a sudden, you know, bam, it 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:01.239 increases by hundreds and hundreds of times and then gradually 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.040 fades away over the course of anywhere from a few 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:08.000 seconds to a few minutes. And we we discovered lots 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.440 of these, and this was a completely new phenomena, and 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.160 that was probably the most exciting thing that I did scientifically, 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.800 was uh, finally figure out what was what was causing these. 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:27.720 It was actually neutron stars um orbiting around regular stars, 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:32.600 and the gravitation of the neutron star was such that 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.200 it would suck hydrogen off the regular star, and the 0:13:36.280 --> 0:13:41.120 hydrogen would accumulate in a layer on the surface of 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.000 the neutron star, and then eventually the whole thing would 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.240 detonate in a in a huge thermonuclear explosion. So what 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.360 we were looking at were hydrogen bombs, you know, ten 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.240 miles in diameter. Uh, you know, it's pretty spectacular stuff. 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.320 So that was really exciting, and I was all set 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:04.640 for a uh you know, career as an astronomer. And 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:08.079 but that was now in the mid to late seventies 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:10.640 when NASA was getting ready to fly what was then 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:15.160 the brand new Space Shuttle. And neat thing about the 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.480 Stay Shuttle from my point of view, was that it 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.600 had a crew of seven, but they only needed two pilots. 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.160 The pilots were still going to be military test pilots, 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.120 but it really opened things up for engineers, scientists, and 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:32.840 medical doctors. And when NASA put out a call for 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.920 for astronauts for the Space Shuttle and and indicated that yes, 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:41.840 they really did want scientists and engineers and doctors, um, 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.720 I thought, well, I'll apply and I was lucky enough 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.720 to get selected the first time around. So that basically 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:53.840 was the end of my career and astronomy research. I 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:58.280 had a I'd say it was quite successful, and had 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.520 I not been selected, I I hope I would have 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.400 had a good career as a research aster physicist. But 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.600 getting selected by Nazis and astroall certainly changed my life. Interesting, 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:11.880 before we ask you about a little bit of your 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:17.560 spaceflight experience, I just wonder does research into high energy astrophysics, Like, 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.440 if you're looking at neutron stars and bursts of X 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.640 rays and gamma rays and stuff in the universe, does 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.560 that change the way you feel about the sky when 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.400 you look up at it and most people look up 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:32.280 and see twinkling stars and it feels kind of nice 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.440 and cool and calm. Do you do you envision the 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:40.040 universe emotionally as one full of radiation and danger and 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:44.440 high energy? Oh? Absolutely? I mean, you know, when you 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.360 look up, just a simple look up at the stars, 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:55.280 everything looks pretty constant and unvarying. And when you realize 0:15:55.280 --> 0:15:59.040 that there's things exploding and going off all over the 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.080 place that trem in this areas of high gravitation, high 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:07.360 magnetic fields, charge particles. Uh, yeah, the universe is a 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:12.160 pretty violent place. Um and uh, you don't see it 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:16.880 with your naked eye, but modern astronomy has has opened 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.840 this up to us. Dr Hoffman, can you tell us 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.280 about some of your your space flight experience? So what 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:27.080 was the Hubble service mission? Like, well, let me let 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.480 me start a little bit further back with my first 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:34.760 base flight, because that, of course, for any astronaut, is 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:36.880 is an exciting moment when you get the call from 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.720 management and they say, oh, you've been You've got an 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:44.440 assignment to your first space flight. Um. We were supposed 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.200 to take up two satellites and put them into orbit 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.040 and theres pop them out of the cargo bay of 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.840 the shovel, which was what the shovel was doing in 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.800 the early days, and then come home. It was going 0:16:55.840 --> 0:17:00.239 to be a short, relatively short mission four days or so. UM. 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.240 And as it turned out, the second of the two 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:09.280 satellites that we popped out of the Shuttle didn't turn on. UM. 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:10.960 You know, I had nothing to do with us. All 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.040 we were supposed to do was was get it out 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:17.639 of the Shuttle into orbit. But when when we reported 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.440 that it did not seem to have activated, NASA went 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:26.320 into a big study mode and they figured out the 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.560 there was only one single point failure that we could 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.840 possibly do something about. There's a little switch on the 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.600 outside of the satellite that maybe had gotten stuck. And 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.080 so they scheduled, for the first time in NASA history, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:44.520 an unplanned spacewalk where my partner and I went out. 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.359 See I had been trained to use space suits, but 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.840 we weren't planning to do a space walk on my 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.159 first flight, but they sent us out to fix it, 0:17:54.119 --> 0:18:02.439 and um, so that was a totally unexpected, uh, incredible experience, 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.880 you know, getting to go out and do a spacewalk, 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.840 which you know all astronauts would like to go out. 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.480 It's the most intimate experience that you can have of 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.600 being in space, is actually putting on a space suit 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.280 and going out of the airlock and and it's you know, 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.320 kind of you face to face with the rest of 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.840 the universe. It's it's an incredible experience. And we did 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:29.560 a good job. And and so um I got identified 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.560 as as somebody who was good at space walking, and 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:35.800 I worked on a lot of advanced spacesuit development and 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.840 various things. And then when it came time to select 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.960 a crew to go up and try to repair the 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:47.080 Hubble telescope. And of course, nowadays, people who weren't alive 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.280 at the time when Hubble was put in orbit don't 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.040 don't really appreciate what a disaster it was for NASA. 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.560 I mean, this billion and a half dollar telescope which 0:18:56.600 --> 0:19:00.320 had been launched with great expectations about how was going 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.480 to revolutionize our view of the universe, and then to 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.120 find out that it couldn't focus properly. I mean, how 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.320 could NASA make a huge mistake like that? Was what 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.000 everybody was was asking and it was absolutely critical. I mean, 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.840 as I say, people don't remember what a disaster it was. 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.760 But NASA and Hubble were the joke of late night comedians. 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:24.040 Pubble was denounced in the halls of the U. S. 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.720 Congress as a techno turkey. NASA was trying to get 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:32.680 Congress to approve funding for the International Space Station at 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:35.479 the time, and as you can imagine, NASA wasn't very 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:40.080 popular with Congress, so UM, basically they were told, you know, 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:42.280 go to something about Hubble and then come back and 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.480 talk to us about the space Station. In any case, 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.000 NASA wanted to do everything possible to reduce the risk 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.399 of failure in this rescue mission, and one of the 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.800 things that they decided was that only people who had 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.960 previously done spacewalks would be eligible to do the spacewalks 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:03.200 for the Hubble rescue. And and because of this unplanned 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:07.320 space walk that I did way back on my first flight, UM, 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.280 and I had had two subsequent flights since then, so 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.520 Hubble for me was my fourth flight, and I had 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.080 my spacewalkers Union cards. So I was fortunate enough to 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.440 be on the crew and that was suddenly, of all 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.560 the things I did as an astronaut, the one with 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.879 the most lasting impact was obviously rescuing Hubble and turning 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:33.160 it from basically nassas worst disaster um scientifically to its 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.159 most successful and productive scientific mission ever. So it was 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.840 a and and of course as a former astronomer, as 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.239 well as being an astronaut, being able to put my 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.760 two hands on the Hubble telescope up in orbit was 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:49.800 I mean, it was the thrill of a lifetime and 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.560 we fixed it and a great thing you did well. 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:58.080 I I know that many of my former astronomy colleagues 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.840 after the mission would come I can't tell you how 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.000 many people would come up to me and say, oh, Jeff, 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.919 thank you so much for thinking novel, because you know, 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.200 my my professional career was depending on this, And all 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.520 I could say was, well, it was a pleasure, you know, 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:18.159 thank you. It was pleasure, It really was. So you 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.960 mentioned that when you were out on spacewalks in in 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.439 the e v A, that you had this kind of 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.639 intimate experience with the universe. It was like putting you 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.640 face to face with the outer universe, and I wonder 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:32.520 about something. So there was a sci fi novel I 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:34.879 read a couple of years ago where a character is 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.600 born and lives her whole life in simulated environments inside 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.880 a generation starship, and she finally at one point comes 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.840 back to Earth late in life, and she's outside and 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:47.920 discussing the idea of getting sun burned. And she's so 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.320 unfamiliar with the concept of Earth and the Sun that 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.520 she calls this. She's horrified, and she calls this getting 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.680 burned by radiation from a star. I wonder, is there 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:03.080 a moment in space, you know, outside vehicle activity, where 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:06.359 you begin to think of the Sun not as the 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:12.399 sun but as a star and other kinds of alienation effects? Now, absolutely, 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.000 I mean this is something when I give public talks, 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:18.480 I I often show a picture of the sun in space, 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:23.160 and then I asked the audience, there's something very strange 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:25.760 about this picture. Can you figure out what it is? 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.120 And most people don't quite get it. But what you're 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:33.800 seeing is the sun in a black sky. And think 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.119 about it. You've never seen the sun in the black 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:39.439 sky because every time the weather is clear, you go 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:44.040 out and of course, our atmosphere scatters the blue light preferentially, 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:47.439 and so the sky is blue, and so every human 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:53.760 being throughout human history until the space age, has only 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:55.960 seen the Sun in the blue sky. We see the 0:22:56.040 --> 0:23:00.639 stars in the black sky because there's not enough really 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:03.440 from the stars to be scattered and make the sky 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:07.760 look blue, but not the Sun. But in space, you 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:11.800 really see the Sun as a star in a black sky. 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.240 Of course, it's it's bigger and brighter than any of 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:18.560 the other stars because it's close to us. But yeah, 0:23:18.640 --> 0:23:21.479 you really do appreciate the Sun as a star and 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:23.760 that that that was something I didn't have to go 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:25.720 out and it just looking out the window of the shuttle. 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:30.080 You you get that appreciation, but it's a totally different perspective, 0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.320 as are so many other things that you see. I mean, 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:36.480 that's one of the things about being off the surface 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:39.000