1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: At Target. We come in for black owned coffee and 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: leave with change in our hands. We come in for 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: healthier snacks and leave feeling more fulfilled. At Target, better 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: days are within our reach. What we value most shouldn't 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: cost more. Hi this is Ali went Worth, host of 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: Go ask Alli Season two. We'll be back soon with 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: more new episodes. As always, Go ask Alli is there 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: for binging and catching up, purpose and meaning in life, 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: or how you figure out what life is all about. 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: And that requires unhappiness. So here's the great paradox. To 11 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: be happy, you also have to be unhappy. Don't miss 12 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: a single episode. Listen to Go ask Ali on the 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: Make sure you subscribe and share. Hi this is Ali 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: went Worth, host of Go ask Alli. My listeners want more, 16 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: so we are digging in. It's real. It's honest, open 17 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: and unexpected and sometimes amusing. He told me you chased 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: him with a butcher knife, tried to cut off his penis. 19 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: But that's his version and everybody has everybody has to 20 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: two sides of every store exactly. All new episodes of 21 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: Go ask Alli release every Thursday. Listen to Go ask 22 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: Alli on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or 23 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Criminalia, a production 24 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hello, 25 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: and welcome to Criminalia. I'm Maria tram Marquis and I'm 26 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: Holly Fry. We know that humans have always managed to 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,839 Speaker 1: commit crimes, almost certainly before there was even recorded history, 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: so we decided that we would start looking at those 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: crimes and get our hands dirty. We wanted to dig 30 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: in and look at some of histories, crimes and criminals 31 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: to understand them better. And in doing so, we're curious 32 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: if we can find commonality with our modern world and 33 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: our modern problems, and whether these crimes look different a 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: little bit of distance on the timeline, and whether any 35 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: of these perpetrators emerge as more but that it characters. 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: This first season is going to be all about poisoners, 37 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: specifically women poisoners. Poison is often called a woman's weapon, 38 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: despite the fact that roughly two thirds of the poisonings 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: committed throughout time have been the work of men. So 40 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: let's start looking at these women and their motivations and 41 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,839 Speaker 1: see if any patterns develop. This week, we're looking into 42 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: the life and Crimes of Tilly Clinic, a Polish immigrant 43 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: who killed at least one and possibly as many as 44 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: twenty people and at least one dog between the years 45 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen. And I will confess that when you were 46 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: telling me about the research you were doing initially on 47 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: this and you mentioned the dog, I was like, well, 48 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 1: I hate her. Um not that it wasn't terrible it 49 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: she killed people, just you know, that was for me 50 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: the worst thing that she could have done as well. 51 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: She was born Tiafila Burick to Michaelina and Michael Burick 52 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: on October eighteen seventy seven, and Tilly was probably right 53 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: around four years old when her family immigrated to the 54 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: United States. They moved from Poland to the Little Poland 55 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: neighborhood of Chicago, and of the seven children in the family, 56 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: a Tilly, as she was called, was the eldest. Chicago 57 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: has a long history of Polish immigration, and Polish Americans 58 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: have lived in the area for well over a century. 59 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: In eighteen ninety, around the time Tilly was born, there 60 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: was a wave of immigration to the United States. At 61 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: that time, the number of Polish immigrants in the city 62 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: blossomed to more than twenty five thousand. By nineteen thirty, 63 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: a few years before she died, that number had grown 64 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: two hundred and sixty five thousand. Most they lived below 65 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: the poverty line. Is the tale of immigration in so 66 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: many ways. So let's set the scene of the actual 67 00:03:51,920 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: situation we're talking about today. So this is Chicago in 68 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: the early twentieth centuries. You couldn't necessarily count on your 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: food and drinks to be clean. Upton Sinclair started publishing 70 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: the serialized version of his groundbreaking expose a of the 71 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,679 Speaker 1: meat industry in the US, The Jungle, in nineteen o five, 72 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: and while that led to the creation of the Meat 73 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: Inspection Act in nineteen o six, food safety legislation was 74 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: still in its infancy. But if you were at a 75 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: restaurant or a club or hotel around the city, there 76 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: were other dangers when it came to what you consumed 77 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: at the table. In particular, wait staff were known to 78 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: target patrons who didn't tip well. Not like the content 79 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: of the chatter in fight Club, although honestly maybe a 80 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: little of that. Uh. They usually chose poisons and various 81 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: other things you really don't want to be in your food. 82 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: So remember always tip well. But moreover, it turns out 83 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: that you couldn't really count on food safety at home either, 84 00:04:55,920 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: at least if you lived with a Tilly Clinic. During 85 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: the time that Chicago's most visible criminal element was organized crime, 86 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: Tilly was quietly becoming the city's most prolific female serial killer. 87 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: She had allegedly killed between six and twenty people. Like 88 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: we said, but it was all through arsenic poisoning. So 89 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk first just about what arsenic actually is. 90 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: It is a naturally occurring element in the Earth's crust 91 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: and in its raw state. As much as it has 92 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: this instant conjuring of poison, it's not actually harmful the 93 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: way it naturally exists. Archenic only really becomes poisonous when 94 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: it's converted into arsenic trioxide, which is better known as 95 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: white arsenic. White arsenic not only is odorless, but it's 96 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: tasteless um and it's white or transparent in form, so 97 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: it's easily confused with sugar or flour. But it's highly 98 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: toxic when it's inhaled into your lungs or when you 99 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: ingest it. And it might surprise you that even white 100 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: arsenic is actually fairly benign in relatively small amounts because 101 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: it is very lethal at higher doses. In fact, doctors 102 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: have actually prescribed white arsenic through the years in its 103 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: low dosage as a treatment for things like asthma, typhus, malaria, 104 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: even menstrual cramps, and it continues to be administered intravenously 105 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: as a chemotherapy for a specific type of leukemia. When 106 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: arsenic is ingested, initially, it causes symptoms such as abdominal pain, diarrhea, 107 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: and that's often being accompanied by bleeding and vomiting. It's terrible. 108 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: As the dose gets more and more lethal in the body, though, 109 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: the symptoms also begin to include convulsion, cardiovascular problems, hair loss, 110 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: liver and kidney problems, and even organ damage. So not 111 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: a peaceful way to go. Definitely not sugar no, and 112 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: despite its potency, it has been used in the production 113 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: of semiconductors. It's been used as wood preservative, and it's 114 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: also sometimes found in pesticides. Manufacturers in the nineteenth century 115 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: started using it for its green pigment in products like 116 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: paint and wallpaper, fabrics, beauty products, and as food coloring. 117 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: The list goes on because green is very beautiful color, 118 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: so sometimes those products would actually make people sick, but 119 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: at the time, no one was suspecting that the arsenic 120 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: in them was the problem that was causing their ailments. 121 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: In the early twentieth century, when Tilly was busy murdering 122 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: people in her community, the average Americans medicine cabinet was 123 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: stocked with all sorts of toxic things like radioactive radium 124 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: for acne, and mercury is a topical antiseptic for cuts 125 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: and scrapes and burns. Morphine showed up in everyday products 126 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: and everything from teething medications to cures for heroin addiction. 127 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: From roughly the late eight into the early twentieth century 128 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: is considered to be the Golden age of poisoners, and 129 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: during that time, arsenic specifically caught the nickname the inheritance powder. 130 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: And you can probably imagine why, hm. The police really 131 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: didn't have any of the tools to test the corpse 132 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: for poison. Arsenic was an only easy to acquire, it 133 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: was hard to detect as a cause of death, which 134 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: was win win for the Golden Age of poisoners. It 135 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: was common practice for doctors to treat suspected poisoning with 136 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: leeches bleeded out or try to identify the poison involved 137 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: by sniffing the contents of the person's stomach. Remember how 138 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: we said arsenic was odorless though, Yeah, so you just 139 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: sniff those contents for nothing. But it was also just 140 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: unusual for a doctor or a coroner to suspect arsenic 141 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: as a cause of death, mainly because the symptoms of 142 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: arsenic poisoning that Maria just talked about, diarrhea and vomiting 143 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: and abdominal pain are so similar to a lot of 144 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: other disorders. It's also really hard to place the poisoner 145 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: at the scene of the murder. Dying can typically take 146 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: hours or longer if you administered the poison gradually, such 147 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 1: as with someone's meals, so the perpetrator could easily have 148 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: a seemingly airtight alibi for their whereabouts because the window 149 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: of time had such fuzzy edges. But it actually wouldn't 150 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 1: be of the late nineteenth century that a chemist named 151 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: James marsh would come up with a reliable chemical test 152 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: for arsenic poisoning. Today, arsenic poisoning is treated with Chilatian therapy, 153 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: which uses special drugs that bind to metal ions in 154 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: your blood. So rough on rats was the product that 155 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: became popular in the late eighteen hundreds. It was composed 156 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: mainly of arsenic and a little black coal for masking 157 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: the poison, and while I was advertised for use in 158 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: killing rats, mice, bedbugs, flies, roaches, it occasionally was used 159 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: for the very off label purpose of killing husbands. Believe 160 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: it or not, the marketing slogan for this poison rough 161 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 1: On Rats was don't die in the house, thinking, of course, 162 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: being that the creature you had poison would scurry away 163 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: to die. It was also really easily available at the 164 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: local store until he actually got her first bottle of 165 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: rough On Rats from her cousin, Nelly Kulik, and Nelly, 166 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: it would turn out, was also a fellow poisoner murder 167 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: and husbands. According to your accounts from her neighbors, Tilly 168 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: was sent to have precognitive dreams, meaning that she could 169 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: predict the future in real life through sort of a 170 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: sixth sensish kind of way. She began to predict the 171 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: depths of neighborhood dogs, and she was surprisingly accurate, But 172 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: it turns out she was just scheduling their depths. We're 173 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: getting a little ahead of ourselves though. In the progression 174 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: of Tilly's activities with rough on rats, So we're going 175 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: to back up to at Target. We come in for 176 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: black owned coffee and leave with change in our hands. 177 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: We come in for healthier snacks and leave feeling more fulfilled. 178 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: At Target, better days are within our reach. What we 179 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: value most shouldn't cost more. Hey, I'm Gabrielle Collins, period 180 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: drama nerd and you're behind the scenes guide to Bridgetin 181 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: On Bridgetain the Official Podcast. We're learning how this fantasy 182 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: world dipped in history came to life. Daphnie, her costume 183 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: design really is about the elegance of simplicity. It's just 184 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: color and shape. We went old school and we got 185 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: to scenic cartists then, who painted the backings for us 186 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: by hand. These dukes are all like in their late 187 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: twenties early thirties. Almost all of them are unmarried, really 188 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: good looking, and none of them have syphilis. Can you 189 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: imagine when he looks into your eyes and then he 190 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: dips you. We just heard this sort of ripping sounds. Yep. 191 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: I think there's just been a wardrobe malfunction. Listen to 192 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: Bridgetain the Official Podcast on the I Heart Radio app, 193 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or anywhere you get your favorite shows. Hi, 194 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: this is Ali went Worth, host of Go Ask Gali 195 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: Season two. We'll be back soon with more new episodes. 196 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: But what you can do is binge the first half 197 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: of season two or revisit our first spectacular season. Everyone 198 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: has to deal with money, and typically like people don't 199 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: talk about it. It's like this quiet thing that everyone 200 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: wants to avoid. But then everyone wants to live this 201 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: life and doesn't matter what how you define that life, 202 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: but you need money for it. Just a few of 203 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: our fabulous guests this season are former editor of People 204 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: magazine Jess Cagel, New York Times bestselling author Isabel Gillies, 205 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: and writer and Oprah's favorite life coach Martha Beck. And 206 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: people come to me now and they will say negative things, 207 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: and I think, I, respectfully do not give a crap 208 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: what you think because I'm a crazy old that now 209 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: and you can't stop me. That's great. Our guests have 210 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: so much to say. One lesson isn't enough. Listen to 211 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: Go Ask Ali on the I Heart Radio app or 212 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you subscribe and share. 213 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Criminalia. Tilly was married to John mckaywitz. 214 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: His name may have been Joseph, not John. Records aren't 215 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,559 Speaker 1: entirely consistent, but we're gonna go with John because that's 216 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: what the majority of records from the time referred to 217 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: him as. That is one of the delights word I'm using, 218 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: ironically of doing historical research, particularly when you are talking 219 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: about UH immigrants, because there was not a vested interest 220 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: always in the government in keeping accurate records about them, 221 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: so you often have these these people's stories that get 222 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: really muddy because their names do shift around in the 223 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: historical record. Anyway, by all accounts, this couple UH Tilly 224 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: and John were well liked in their community, and their 225 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: marriage appeared by all accounts to be happy. Tilly made 226 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: her life as a housekeeper, but it was also during 227 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: this time that Tilly started telling neighbors about some vision 228 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: that she was having. She was, as we mentioned before 229 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: the break, an alleged psychic who was skilled specifically at 230 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: predicting deaths. This included predicting the death of her own husband, John, 231 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: who had left her a thousand dollars when he died 232 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: in nineteen fourteen. The coroner's report listed his death as 233 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: a result of heart trouble, nothing suspicious there was no 234 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: reason at the time to suspect that John had been 235 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: poisoned by his wife. The nickname black widow, which is 236 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: often given to women who kill their lovers in order 237 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: to inherit their wealth, would eventually be bestowed upon Tilly, 238 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: but not just yet. Here's a little more in detail 239 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: on John's sudden end. Okay. In the beginning of nineteen fourteen, 240 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: Tilly began telling friends and those in the community that 241 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: she dreamed that John was ill. She expected he would 242 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: be on his deathbed in just a few weeks um 243 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: and when he died in January that year, the cause 244 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: of death was listed as heart trouble and till he 245 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: collected a thousand dollars in life insurance. I guess after 246 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: nineteen years she just didn't want to go to um. 247 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: She's like enough. After receiving that payout on John's life 248 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: insurance policy, Tilly actually remarried pretty quickly. See, now, that's 249 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: the thing. She remarried quickly often, And I have to 250 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: I always sort of wonder like if she would follow 251 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: in love with someone new and be like, oh, I'll 252 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: kill my husband and we'll start out fresh with like 253 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: this new thousand dollars. It's just my own personal theory. Yeah, 254 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: I think there's merit to it. But her new husband, 255 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: Joseph Riskowski, died just three months after they got married, 256 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: and he happened to leave his widow twelve hundred dollars 257 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: in cash and seven dollars in insurance money. Not only 258 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: did Tilly predict Joseph's death, she went on to predict 259 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: the deaths of her third husband, although they may or 260 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: may not have been married. It's a little sketchy, uh, 261 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: and her fourth husband, as well as children, she cared 262 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: for a few neighbors and possibly some other family members. 263 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: And not only did she joke with neighbors that her 264 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: fourth husband, Frank, had quote two inches to live, which 265 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: is a really interesting, fascinating turn of phrase, she allegedly 266 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: taunted him on his deathbed and said things like it 267 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: won't be long now and you'll be dying soon, which 268 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: is in my own home, Like you got to it 269 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: just to live. I don't know, right, It's like callous 270 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: on a level that's hard to comprehend, right right. She also, 271 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: in an act of both cruel and creative, knitted herself 272 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: a morning hat um as she sat by his bedside 273 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: while he was dying. She even so far as to 274 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: purchase a thirty dollar bargain coffin to keep in the 275 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: basement of her house waiting for his death. That storage 276 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: dreament was a little unsettling request made of her landlord, um, 277 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: who began to be a little suspicious of Tilly after 278 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: that came in. Frank did die on ap and it 279 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: is said that when it happened, Tilly played dance music 280 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: in the room. The coroner listed Frank's cause of death 281 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: as bronchial pneumonia. Tilly's poisonous predilections unnoticed. She once again 282 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: collected on his life insurance, this time in the amount 283 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: of six seventy five dollars, nearly as much as the 284 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: last two. I know she's downgrading the insurance situation with 285 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: each one. They're going faster now, you know. It's just 286 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: not enough time to like build up to the thousand. 287 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: That's another theory I have. UM. It's interesting and grimly 288 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: fun to note that Frank Antilli's home at Winchester It's 289 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: a house in East Dillage in Chicago, shows up on 290 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: the Old Fourth Where social networking site as Old Lady 291 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: Tilly clinics haunted house. Even today, Tilly was still not arrested. 292 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: The that didn't happen until after she botched an attempt 293 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: at poisoning husband number five, that was Joseph Clinic. She 294 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: and Joseph had gotten married in July of ninety one, 295 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: again not long after Frank's demise, and Clinic is said 296 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: to have been a relatively wealthy man, but Tilly did 297 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: not like that. He also apparently had a wandering eye, 298 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: and by October of nineteen twenty two, he was in 299 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: the hospital experiencing arm numbness, leg paralysis, and other symptoms 300 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: consistent with severe arsenic poisoning. So while he was in 301 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: the hospital, Tilly's husband recalled that his food had tasted 302 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: strangely lately. And here's one big red flag. He remembered 303 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: the dog dying after eating scraps of food till he 304 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: had cooked. Her husband also stated he'd planned to press 305 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: charges against her until he kissed him. Such a strange 306 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 1: dynamic at play, But uh, it was not poisoning Joseph 307 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: that she went on trial for. While Tilly was arrested 308 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: initially for the attempted murder of Joseph Clinic, who would 309 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: survive her poison his hand um after an investigation into 310 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: the deaths of her previous husbands. The crime Tilly was 311 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: eventually tried for was the murder of Frank, her third husband, 312 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: but even as she was taken in, she appeared completely 313 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: indifferent to the whole situation. It is said that she 314 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: told the arresting officer, who was Lieutenant William Malone, the 315 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: next one I want to cook dinner for is you? 316 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: You made all my trouble. After eighteen hours of interrogation, 317 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: Tilly confessed to her crimes, admitting to mixing rat poison 318 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: into her victims food and drink note plural. It's interesting, right, 319 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: Like eighteen hours of interrogation is considered extreme, it is, 320 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: and she just gives it all up. Then there's that 321 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: whole thing of like is this a coerced confession at 322 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: that point, But her later behavior makes it seem like 323 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: she's she's pretty down with this information being uh one 324 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: true and part of public records. Yeah, she's a badass. 325 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: Just to grains of arsenic is enough to kill almost anyone, 326 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: uh and as much as eight grains were found in 327 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: Frank's organs, so enough to kill four people. Authorities decided 328 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: to exhume Tilly's other husbands and found their stomachs each 329 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: contained lethal doses of arsenic, and although evidence existed to 330 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: convict her of as many as twenty murders by arsenic, 331 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: only one charge resulted in a conviction. Although she was 332 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: not the only woman and wife in her community to 333 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: be arrested for suspicion of poisoning, she was the only 334 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 1: one of them who was sentenced. You remember how we 335 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: mentioned her cousin earlier. Authorities went on to investigate a 336 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 1: possible poison ring in the Little Poland neighborhood, arresting other 337 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: local women in what the assistant state attorney at the 338 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: time that was, a man named William McLaughlin called quote 339 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: the most astonishing wholesale poisoning plot uncovered. He wanted the 340 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: death penalty for Tilly, but without better evidence, the other 341 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: women who had been rounded up just had to be released. 342 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: As Tillie's story unfurls, it becomes apparent that it wasn't 343 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: just husbands that she poisoned. She played fast and loose 344 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: with rough on rats, poisoning people who irritated her and 345 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: dogs who barked too much. In the neighborhood life was 346 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: especially risky if you were one of Tillie's cousins. In 347 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve, Tilly's cousin, Stanley Zaczuski, died at the age 348 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: of sixteen. Tilly, who was in her mid thirties at 349 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: the time, tended on him while he was ill. Another cousin, 350 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: Stanley's sister, Still, died in nineteen thirteen. She was twenty 351 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: three at the time, and again Tilly played the role 352 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: of caregiver. After her husband Frank's death, Tillie started seeing 353 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: a man named Joseph Grantkowski, like lovers before him. Joseph 354 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: died in nineteen fourteen after jilting her and back to cousins. 355 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifteen, Tilly's cousin Helen died at age fifteen. 356 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: Another cousin, Nick Micko, became sick from arsenic poisoning, but 357 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: he was lucky enough to actually recover. In nineteen nineteen, 358 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: Tilly's cousin Rose died after attending Tilly and Frank's wedding party. 359 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: Tillie may have been involved in the poisoning of woe 360 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: Jack Strummer, who was the husband of her cousin Nellie. 361 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: The same Nellie from she procured her rat poison. It 362 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: turns out that Tilly wasn't only cooking arsenic in two meals, 363 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: she was also a confectioner. Twizzlers may make mouse happy, 364 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: but you definitely want to skip Tilly streets. So uh. 365 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: Stella Gooskowski, sister of Tillie's former boyfriend Joseph, got sick 366 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: after she ate a candy that was given to her 367 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 1: by Tilly after the two women had an argument. Joseph 368 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: died from tainted candy as well. Rose Split had also 369 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: stayed un Tillie gave her arsenic confused candies after Joseph 370 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: Clinic talked to her. So jealous, Tilly was willing to 371 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: go after innocent women who her husband even dared to 372 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: converse with. So let's keep going because we're only about 373 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: halfway through the body count. There was also a woman 374 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: named Bessie kop Sick, sister in law of Tilly's husband Frank, 375 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: who fell sick after eating Tillie's cooking, but Bessie recovered. Children, 376 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: primarily relatives, were also on Tillie's hit list. At least 377 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: four children in Tillie's sphere were poisoned between nineteen seventeen. 378 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: Nineteen eighteen, Dorthy Spara died at age two. Twins Sophie 379 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: and Ben Strummer also died. John Strummer was the only 380 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: one to recover Lillian's Strummer, who was in her early teens, 381 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: lived at Tillie's home for a year when she became 382 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: deathly ill from the food and suffered heart trouble. So 383 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: skip ahead just a few years to March ninety three 384 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: and a man named Myers goes missing. Suspicious. Uh, maybe 385 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: he might have been one of Tilly's husband's, but he 386 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: was more likely just a boyfriend. Records from this time, 387 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: as we've mentioned, not always robust, and a lot of 388 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: times people would just claim to be spouses without going 389 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: through the paperwork, kind of like common law, but more 390 00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: like they were just like, well, we lived together, and 391 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: we live as a married couple. Either way, the risk 392 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: of dying was obviously considerably high for any of Tilly's paramours, 393 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: legally wed or not. I don't think she cared about 394 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: the paperwork, just just the life insurance. At her trial, 395 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: Tillie wore the black hat that she had made when 396 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: her third husband, Frank, had been on his deathbed. She 397 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: had also warned to his funeral as she had planned. Historically, 398 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: in Chicago in the early twentieth century, women who were 399 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: brought to trial for murder, which was usually murder of 400 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: their husbands, were almost always acquitted. If a woman was 401 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: unlucky enough to be convicted, she was generally going to 402 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: be given an amazingly light sentence in comparison to men 403 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: who had stood trial for murder, and it really helped 404 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: your case. If you were very feminine, weeping a bit 405 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: and flirting would always help. In the years leading up 406 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: to Tillie's trial, twenty eight women had been charged with 407 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: murder in Cook County, where Chicago is located. Twenty four 408 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,919 Speaker 1: were acquitted. It is probably no coincidence that all twenty 409 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: four of those women were considered conventionally attractive. Up the 410 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: only four were found guilty Hilda Axeland, who was not 411 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: considered a beauty Vera Trepagnier who was middle aged, Emma Simpson, 412 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: who was determined to be insane, and Dora Waterman, who 413 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: also was not known for her looks. On the other hand, 414 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: the well dressed, well groomed Cora or Queen, who shot 415 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 1: her boyfriend over his cheating walked free. Tilly, though, did 416 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: not have these advantages. She was nothing like skylish Belva 417 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: Gartner and beautiful Beulah Annam, the killers who inspired the 418 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: play Chicago. According to Genevieve Forbes, a crime reporter who 419 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: covered the trial for the Chicago Tribune, Tilly was neither 420 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: beautiful nor charming. She was described as a middle aged 421 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: woman forty five who was squat quote unquote, with a 422 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: greasy complexion and a lumpy figure. Her dull brown hair 423 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: was pulled back into a nod at the back of 424 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: her head. Despite having lived in Chicago since she was 425 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: just a little kid. She spoke only broken English, and 426 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: it was recorded that she growled, I shudder to think 427 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: what Genevieve for um. During the proceedings, prosecutors read a 428 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: list of twenty alleged victims of Tilly, pausing after each 429 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: name to ask her did you kill this person? And 430 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: each time she would reportedly shrug, responding to each of 431 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: the simple yeah, I wish I could have been in 432 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: this trial. The trial Jedge asked for something called a 433 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: psychopathic lab report. According to the examining doctor, Tilly was 434 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: a quote subnormal mentality with an intellect and I quote again, 435 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: no higher than that of an eleven year old child. 436 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: As we just mentioned, she didn't really speak English especially well, 437 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: so let's take these results with a grain of salt. 438 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: And it was reported she was afflicted with dementia precox, 439 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: a diagnosis today that would be schizophrenia. She was also 440 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: described as a rattlesnake, as a heartless woman, and due 441 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: to the murder's around her, she got the nickname we 442 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Black Widow. Hi, it's Laverne Cox. And on 443 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: my podcast, The Laverne Cox Show, we're ripping the band 444 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: aid off. Trauma, resilience dating, diet culture dating, white supremacy dating. Okay, 445 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get explicit, but just because you're cute, 446 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: like I'm not going I'm not, you're gonna say yes. 447 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: And honey, we have a lot of fun along the way. 448 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: You have a lot of lesbian fans who love your 449 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: femininity and glamour, and I just really really want I 450 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: want us to talk openly about the difficult things we 451 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: all face as humans and as humans in America. Racist 452 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: white people in the United States will sign their own 453 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: death certificates. They will vote for policies that crush them. 454 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: No safety nets, no health care because they feel too 455 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 1: much like entitlements. And those are folks of color, right. 456 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: Listen to the Laverne Cox Show in the I Heart 457 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or ever you get your podcast, 458 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: make sure you subscribe and share. Hi. It's Ali Wentworth, 459 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: a middle aged woman with a lot of questions and 460 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: a lot of answers. I have pulled out of my tushes, 461 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: host of Go ask Alli. My listeners want more, so 462 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: we are digging in. It's real. It's honest, open and 463 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: unexpected and sometimes amusing. Can you start with your infamous 464 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: nineteen dollar haircut? Yes? And this is a great story 465 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: I I feel about mothers and daughters with a dream 466 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: and an empty bank account. Just a few of our 467 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: fabulous guests this season are New York Times bestselling author 468 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: Isabel Gillies, writer and Oprah's Favorite Life coach Martha Beck, 469 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: and former editor of People magazine Jess Cagel. If we 470 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: know intimate details about another person, then that person is 471 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: socially important to us. Okay, so that's what you like 472 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: to gossip about? Wait, what do you gussip about? All 473 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: new episodes of Go ask Alli release every Thursday. Listen 474 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: to go ask Alli on the irt radio app, Apple 475 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, guys, Katie 476 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: Lowe's here. You might know me as Quinn Perkins on Scandal. 477 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: I am also the host of Katie's Crib. It's a 478 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: podcast about all things parenthood. Katie's Crib is back with 479 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: new episodes every Thursday. We have got an amazing lineup 480 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: of guests. We have got the amazing Katerina scores Ny, 481 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: who you might also know as Dr Amelia Shephard from 482 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: Gray's Anatomy. She is talking about her three children. We've 483 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: also got Cat McPhee Foster. She just became a mom 484 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: like two seconds ago. We just have a great hang 485 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: sash talking about all things new Mama. We are going 486 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: to be covering everything from discipline to mom ring. Tune 487 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: in as I bring on celebrities, experts, and even more 488 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: guests to continue to help you get your parenthood one 489 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: step at a time. Listen to Katie's Crib on the 490 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get 491 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Because of the evidence beyond the single murder, 492 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: investigators obtained permission to exhume the corpses of Chili's dead 493 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: husbands for arsenic toxicity testing. Newspaper headlines covering the trial 494 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: featured headlines like three more bodies to be exhumed in 495 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: clinic case, and bodies of other relatives will be exhumed. 496 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: All those cousins, all those cousins, all, yeah, the children 497 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: and dogs thing. I just obviously killing anybody is bad, 498 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: but uh. Tilly, though, stuck to a story that Frank 499 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: had died of alcohol poisoning and that she had absolutely 500 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: not killed her mouses. She said, quote, I loved them, 501 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: They loved me. They just died, same as other people. 502 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: She continued, I'm not responsible for that. I could not 503 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: help if they wanted to die. Contrary to her statement 504 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: during the trial, the coroner accusingly asserted, quote, there is 505 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: no question that Mrs Clinic poisoned everyone. She wanted to 506 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: get out of the way. After the jury deliberated for 507 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: just an were in twenty minutes, Tilly was found guilty 508 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: of the murder of her third husband, Frank kop sick 509 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: In Judge Marcus Kavanaugh sentenced her to life in prison 510 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: without the possibility of parole. That was the harshest sentence 511 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: ever given to a woman in Chicago. At that time, 512 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: for jurors thought she should be given the death penalty. 513 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: At the time, no woman had ever been sentenced to 514 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: death in the state of Illinois. Uh The Chicago Tribune 515 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: reporter Forbes called her gruesomely cruel and went on to 516 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: say that Tilly is a spectator in her own drama. 517 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: While on all accounts, Tilly is considered to have been 518 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: friendly to the other prisoners once she was incarcerated, she 519 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: definitely did not want to talk about the poisonings. It 520 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: has said that she would yell, quote, I didn't rob nobody. 521 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: I didn't shoot nobody. I didn't poison nobody. I didn't 522 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: everybody picks on me. Everybody makes eyes at me like 523 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: they're going to eat me. Why do they make eyes 524 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: like that? I tell the truth. Anything I did, I 525 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: did to myself, nobody else. She was incarcerated at the 526 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: Illinois State Penitentiary at Juliet with one stipulation. It said 527 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: that while Tilly enjoyed the few food served to her 528 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: in prison, the judge declared that she never be allowed 529 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: to cook for her fellow inmates. After thirteen years of incarceration, 530 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: she died on November ninety six, so Tilly clearly does 531 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: seem to have had a certain detachment and a callousness 532 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: about the crime she was found guilty of, and that 533 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: cannot have helped her case. But we also can't disregard 534 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: another significant influence in the outcome of her trial, which 535 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: we briefly touched on, that you might hope something like 536 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: physical appearance wouldn't matter today in the courtroom as it 537 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: clearly did in Tilly's day. You might surprised to hear 538 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: that the judge and jury can still be swayed by 539 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: a pretty face. What we know from study upon study 540 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: is that most people, even without being conscious of it, 541 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: consider physically attractive adults to be healthier, more intelligent, and 542 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: to have better personalities than those who are not consider 543 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: as esthetically pleasing. In fact, in economics, there's a phenomenon 544 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: known as the beauty premium, and on the opposite side 545 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,239 Speaker 1: of the spectrum there's what's called the ugliness penalty um. 546 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: But that's just not limited to economics, it's just how 547 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: humans work with each other. In recent years, studies have 548 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: also found that as humans, we generally consider attractive people 549 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: in our society to just be better people, whether that's 550 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: in the workplace, at school, in relationships, or in the 551 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: courtroom where you would hope and expect to find impartiality. 552 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: Studies in the last few decades have found that juries 553 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: tend to be biased in the favor of good looking defendants. 554 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: This can mean people considered to be attractive or not 555 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: only found guilty less often, um, but that they also 556 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: received less severe sentences when they are found guilty. Unattractive 557 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: however you define it. Defendants, on the other hand, were 558 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: more likely to be served with longer and harsher sentences 559 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: and average of twenty two months longer in prison. And 560 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: that's even today. So while Tilly we could never paint 561 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: as a good guy in any of this, uh, she 562 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: definitely still was also a victim of this kind of 563 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: weird bias that people won't even acknowledge that they have. Right, 564 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: we feel that we're above it. Now that we're not, 565 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: we're clearly not know And the thing is, it's one 566 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: of those things that's insidious, right, like we all have it. 567 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: We all have these biases. So you can't presume that, 568 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: in recognizing that they exist, that you have overcome your 569 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: own because it's hardwired almost in some ways, it's not 570 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: really hardwired. You can relearn it, but it takes an 571 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: awful lot of conscious effort, absolutely, and a constant conscious 572 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: effort probably for the rest of your life. You're always 573 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: practicing it. Yes, um, but in uh less downer talk, Hey, Maria, 574 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: it's my favorite time of the show, cocktail hour. Yes, indeed, 575 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: what's your Poison? Our our time where we'd come up 576 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: with a little something, something that will relate to the 577 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: show in a fun way. And since we've been talking 578 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: about Tilly, and since she was a Polish immigrant, I 579 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: wanted to do something in honor of her Polish heritage. 580 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: So I squirreled around on the Internet for a while 581 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: because I couldn't come up with anything on my own. Um, 582 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: and I discovered this recipe. It's called a few different things. 583 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: The name that I enjoy is Polish kiss. And what 584 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: this is is Zubrowka vodka, which is a bison grass vodka. 585 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: Did you say bison grass vodka? I did. That's interesting. Yeah, 586 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the grass that bison prefer, 587 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: like fine bison everywhere. I don't I swear by this grass, 588 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: just I don't know. It has a blade of grass 589 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: in the bottle. I also came across this drink called 590 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: a Frisky bison Ak polish Kiss, so clearly so the 591 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: polish Kiss is. The version that I found was one 592 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: point five ounces of this bice and grass vodka and 593 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: then five ounces of apple juice. And the way it 594 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: was touted when I read about it was that it 595 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: tastes just like apple pie. And does it? It does not, 596 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: at least not the version I made. Now, let me 597 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: back up the truck for a minute, because I don't 598 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: want to blame the recipe maker. I but it's delicious, 599 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: it's just not like apple pie. I think probably if 600 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: you are making it with normal apple juice from the store, 601 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: it probably does start to taste like apple pie. But 602 00:36:52,520 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: I bought um organic unsweetened hippie apple juice to go 603 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: with the vodka. So what happened is that it tastes 604 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: like you have just picked a fresh apple off of 605 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: a tree and taken a bite of it, because that 606 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: vodka has that grassy flavor that makes it feel like 607 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 1: a fresh plant based item. And it's absolutely beautiful. It's 608 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: very crisp, sounds delicious, It's like it's a summer day cocktail. 609 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: For sure. It was very delightful. I could see that 610 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: she would probably drink that while she was waiting for 611 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: her husband to die, Like while she was knitting her hat, 612 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: She's like, Oh, I just don'tthing refreshing to drink while 613 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: I will say this, I will say this, that cocktail 614 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: vibes to me a little too fancy for her. I 615 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: picture her as like a bear drink. It does seem 616 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: a little fancy. And remember Chicago in the twenties, probably 617 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: not like I want fancy imported vodka. I doubt I 618 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: would like the imported bison grass vodka from my homeland. 619 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: Probably didn't come up much, I guess, but I guess now. 620 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: But that is this week's What's Your Poison? Uh And 621 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us again on Criminalia. If you 622 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: would like to subscribe to the podcast, we would like 623 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: you to do that as well, and you can do 624 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: that on the I Heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, 625 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 1: or wherever it is you listen. Criminalia is a production 626 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. 627 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, please visit the 628 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,359 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 629 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.