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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Bay Village police are seeking

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Speaker 1: a little girl who failed to return home from school

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Speaker 1: this afternoon. That brief but disturbing message started the search

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Speaker 1: for ten year old Amy. I, Nancy Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Fox Nation and series XM one eleven. First of all,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at Fox eight. I

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Speaker 1: called my mom, who then said no, she had choir

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Speaker 1: practice that Friday, which was odd. And then she still

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Speaker 1: wasn't home, and I called her again. Amy had called

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Speaker 1: her mom that afternoon, apparently in between Jason's two calls,

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Speaker 1: apparently to reassure her authorities believe she was with her

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Speaker 1: abductor when she made that call. As time passed, though,

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Speaker 1: when Jason called his mom a second time, the fear grew,

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Speaker 1: and of course I said, everything into motion. Everyone knew

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Speaker 1: something was wrong. A massive search ensued. So when she's

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Speaker 1: not home, when she's supposed to be home, everyone began

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Speaker 1: feeling uneasy. She was supposed to have choir that afternoon

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Speaker 1: on a Friday afternoon, the teen year old little girl

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Speaker 1: didn't come home. You're hearing her brother Jason speaking. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen again, to our friends at Foxhate. Amy disappeared

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Speaker 1: from that square across the street after meeting a man

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Speaker 1: who had called her at home. He indicated that he

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Speaker 1: wanted to help Amy buy a surprise gift for her mother, Margaret,

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Speaker 1: who had received her promotion at work. Something that was true,

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Speaker 1: and he knew Amy was never seen alive again. Her

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Speaker 1: brother Jason was the first person to send something wrong.

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Speaker 1: That October day. Amy got out of school about an

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Speaker 1: hour earlier than he did, meaning Amy was almost always

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Speaker 1: the first one home. I came home to an empty house,

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Speaker 1: which was rare. How would the kidnapper know about the

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Speaker 1: mom's promotion? Did the ten year old girl unwillingly tell

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Speaker 1: him that? How did he know how to reach her?

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Speaker 1: All these questions surrounding the disappearance of a beautiful ten

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Speaker 1: year old little girl. Amy Mehalvic again, I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and series XM one eleven with

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Speaker 1: me and All Star a panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we know right now. First of all, straight out

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Speaker 1: to special guests joining us news anchor from CBS nineteen

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Speaker 1: Nicole Versansky. Nicole, thank you for being with us and

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Speaker 1: you can find her in Nicole Versansky, Cleveland, nineteen Nicole,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. Tell me about the afternoon

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Speaker 1: that Amy went missing. Amy ten years old. She's in

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Speaker 1: fifth grade. She rides ther bike school and that afternoon,

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Speaker 1: specifically that afternoon in her class, she had an officer

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Speaker 1: speaking in her class about stranger danger. And we know

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Speaker 1: that she left her bike at school and she walked

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Speaker 1: about a block away after she got out of school

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Speaker 1: to meet a man. She told a couple of friends

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Speaker 1: she was going there to meet someone to buy a

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Speaker 1: gift from her mom. And she walks a couple bucks

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Speaker 1: away from school. It's an ice cream shop. There's an

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Speaker 1: ice cream shop in this plaza. It's a popular after

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Speaker 1: school hangout. And she's seen the last time Amy Mahalovic

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Speaker 1: is seen as two other ten year old boys saw

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Speaker 1: her there with a man. She turned toward the parking

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Speaker 1: lot with him, never to be seen again. You're scaring

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Speaker 1: me so much right now, because the Twins School is

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Speaker 1: right down the hill from a frozen customers like ice

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Speaker 1: cream shop, and anytime between twelve and four, you can

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Speaker 1: see a parade of students going up and down that sidewalk.

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Speaker 1: If it's good, a little high. You know, it's about

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Speaker 1: maybe a quarter of a mile to get there, but

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Speaker 1: it's a hangout and they all go there. That's exactly

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Speaker 1: the same picture here. And what's so disturbing about this,

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Speaker 1: Nancy as if you talk to Amy's dad, Mark, Amy

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Speaker 1: wasn't one to go hang out and talk to a stranger.

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Speaker 1: She was a sweet girl. Mark girl got ais and bees,

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Speaker 1: but she wouldn't go up to someone. She never talked

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Speaker 1: to strangers. So the person she was meeting wasn't a

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Speaker 1: stranger to her. This is someone she felt she knew

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Speaker 1: and she could trust. Now, it's interesting that you say,

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Speaker 1: in Nicole Vra Sansky joining us CBS nineteen that it's

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Speaker 1: someone she knew, But you're in my definition of someone

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Speaker 1: she knew is very different from a child's idea of

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Speaker 1: someone they know. Because join me right now. Del Carson

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former FBI agent,

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Speaker 1: author of a rest Proof yourself. You can find him

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Speaker 1: at del Carson law dot com. Dell and all your

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Speaker 1: work with the FBI and all my work dealing with

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Speaker 1: child kidnap, child murder, child leastation. You can ask a child, well,

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Speaker 1: who wasn't, and they go, well, the janitor, or the yardman,

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Speaker 1: or the guy at the ice cream shop. They may

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Speaker 1: not even know the name of the person, yet they

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Speaker 1: think they know the man at the ice cream shop.

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Speaker 1: He's there almost every afternoon, and he's taught to her

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Speaker 1: in the past about her family and her siblings and

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Speaker 1: her dog and her bike. And she thinks she knows him,

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Speaker 1: but she doesn't. Children don't think the way we do.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And more to the point, man, you know,

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Speaker 1: the children's frame of reference is fairly small, and the

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Speaker 1: result is anybody they know becomes important to them when

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't be important to adults at all. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's really interesting that you said that. Let me go

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Speaker 1: to doctor Jerry Crossen joining US psychologists and Professor Saint

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Speaker 1: Leo University consultant author of Operation SS. Doctor Jory, what

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Speaker 1: do you make of what Carson just said that a

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Speaker 1: child's world is so small that the people that they

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Speaker 1: do know have a significant importance to them. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: the big point too, is that they're very trusting. And

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Speaker 1: when you look at how freely we give trust into

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Speaker 1: other people, you know, just a little bit of information

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Speaker 1: if this person were to say something that she may

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Speaker 1: know about some of her friends or her parents or

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Speaker 1: something like that. You see, there's that connection now, and

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Speaker 1: with that connection now comes trust. You know. Nicole Versanski

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Speaker 1: is joining US News anchor CBS nineteen Nicole, you told me.

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Speaker 1: She mentioned to several of her friends that she who

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Speaker 1: the guy was. She mentioned to two of her friends.

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Speaker 1: She never told her brother, never told her family, And

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Speaker 1: the indication is that this man called her at home

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Speaker 1: at least once, but likely more. But she did confide

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Speaker 1: in two friends at school that day that she was

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Speaker 1: going after school to meet this man to buy a

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Speaker 1: gift for her mom for a work promotion. So this person,

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Speaker 1: this man, had enough information on Amy as far as

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Speaker 1: her mom. Margaret wasn't really promoted, she was going from

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Speaker 1: part time to full time, but had enough information to

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Speaker 1: know that about Amy and be able to lure her

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Speaker 1: with the promise of you know, here she is. She's

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Speaker 1: a ten year old girl thinking she's doing something wonderful

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Speaker 1: for her mom. She's going to surprise her with a gift.

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Speaker 1: And that breaks your heart when you think of just

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Speaker 1: the innocence and the sweet act of what she had

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Speaker 1: tended to do. Greg Smith joining me, Special Deputy Sheriff

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Speaker 1: Johnson County Sheriff's Office and executive director of the Kelsey

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Speaker 1: Smith Foundation, named after his daughter who was kidnapped and murdered. Kelsey,

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Speaker 1: Greg thank you for being with us. You know, when

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing Nicole for Sansky described ten year old Amy,

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Speaker 1: it almost basically want to cry because this little girl

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Speaker 1: is so trusting and she thinks the kidnapper is going

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Speaker 1: to take her to buy a present for her mom's promotion. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's the sad truth of the thing in a

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Speaker 1: number of ways. One, it's too bad that in our

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Speaker 1: society you can't trust other people. But two, that's exactly

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Speaker 1: what kids do. I mean, I have eight grandkids and

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Speaker 1: you know they're all so sweet and innocent, and you

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Speaker 1: listen to them talk about who their friends are or

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Speaker 1: who they met. And in today's world, now their social

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Speaker 1: media and you know, you can boom somebody appears on

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Speaker 1: a tablet or a phone. And if you've got school

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Speaker 1: age kids, chances are the schools giving you that equipment.

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Speaker 1: So now they're bringing that equipment home because they needed

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Speaker 1: for school, but it can be used for other purposes.

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Speaker 1: So the world has changed and in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: not for the butter. Her mind was occupied with getting

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Speaker 1: a surprise gift for her mother for her mom's promotion.

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Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy, Grace with Me Doctor Michelle Dupree,

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Speaker 1: who wrote literally wrote the book Investigating Child abuse Field

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Speaker 1: Guide Doctor Dupree. Very often we see a child kidnapper

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Speaker 1: on the lef get to know the child. It's called grooming,

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Speaker 1: And I guarantee you he got the information out of

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Speaker 1: this child about her mom getting the promotion and then

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Speaker 1: used that as a weapon to lure her into leaving

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Speaker 1: her home, her school, the ice cream shop to go

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Speaker 1: off with him to get a promotion gift. Yes, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And that's what they do, is they

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Speaker 1: become friends and I put those in air quotes with

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Speaker 1: that child, and they know things about them, and they

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Speaker 1: seemed like they're very familiar, and so they gained that

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Speaker 1: child's trump and the parents would have no idea what

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Speaker 1: was going on. Dodgy Dupree because she's a latchkey kid

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Speaker 1: like I was. When we got off school, we walked

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Speaker 1: literally over a mile home. My mom and dad were

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Speaker 1: both at work. We knew how to get into the

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Speaker 1: home and we stayed there till they got home or

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Speaker 1: went and played or whatever, and there was not a

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Speaker 1: thought in the world that anything bad could happen. I

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Speaker 1: bet the parents didn't even know this guy existed, that's right.

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Speaker 1: May at least not in that capacity. They may have

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Speaker 1: known the person, or they may have been acquainted with him,

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Speaker 1: but certainly they did not know that the child was

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Speaker 1: involved with them. Was that each other again, del Carson?

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Speaker 1: Because obviously they had met before, because she told her friends,

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Speaker 1: my friend's going to take me to buy my mom

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Speaker 1: a gift. They had obviously had phone conversations and had met,

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Speaker 1: and I bet they met at that ice cream shop.

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Speaker 1: But I'll tell you the method of operation here, the

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Speaker 1: MOO is a bit unusual, and one wonders whether or

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Speaker 1: not this has happened in other locations, which would lead

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Speaker 1: you to a potential suspect. There were multiple other girls

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Speaker 1: in the same general area who got a phone call,

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Speaker 1: and if you talk to detectives on the case, they

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Speaker 1: believe it was from this team. Man, Wow, okay, you're

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Speaker 1: hearing the call over Sansky jump in. I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: you told me that the Coles joining a cbsiteen. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that. Tell me about that. Other little girls

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Speaker 1: got phone calls. There were calls before and after Amy disappeared.

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Speaker 1: North Olmstead is a town just a few miles outside

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Speaker 1: of Bay Village. But the only connection investigators were ever

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Speaker 1: able to make between these girls and Amy's case is

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Speaker 1: just the proximity that they all lived in the same

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Speaker 1: general vicinity. There was no other real link that they

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Speaker 1: could ever find between the girls. Nicole ver Sansky joining

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Speaker 1: a CBS lighteen, what would he say on the phone

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Speaker 1: to the other girls? It was the same, Emma, I

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Speaker 1: want to take a shopping It Scott to Bay the

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Speaker 1: side guy who's calling ten year old little girls and

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Speaker 1: saying I want to take you shopping. Well, the search

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Speaker 1: ensued for ten year old little Amy, her family distraught,

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Speaker 1: and then twist in the case, take a Little Star

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Speaker 1: Friends at Fox eighth. One hundred four days later we

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Speaker 1: find her an count Amy's body was discovered by a

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Speaker 1: jogger in a field in Ashland County, which is about

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Speaker 1: fifty miles south of Bay Village. Investigators believe Amy's killer

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Speaker 1: may have been familiar with the area since it's in

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Speaker 1: a very remote location about ten feet off roadway right

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Speaker 1: in right in this area. Sheriff's deputy Karl Richard was

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Speaker 1: the first law enforcement officer unseen thrown on the side

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Speaker 1: of the road like trash. That tells me a lot,

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Speaker 1: the m O, the modusoftwad my method of operation of

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Speaker 1: disposal of the body. But also about this remote location,

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Speaker 1: Nicole Verzianski joining us CBS nineteen, you know, you were

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Speaker 1: just saying that other girls in the general area had

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Speaker 1: also been getting calls from an adult mail that wanted

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Speaker 1: to take them shopping. He had to put together their

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Speaker 1: names and phone numbers. He had to have contact with

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Speaker 1: them to figure out their names and how to locate

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Speaker 1: their numbers. He was watching other girls. This may not

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Speaker 1: be his only victim as far as that remote location,

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Speaker 1: because you describe the location for me, Nicole, for Sansky,

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Speaker 1: it's in the middle of nowhere, Nancy, and there was nothing.

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Speaker 1: This is God's country. This is farm fields that spanned

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Speaker 1: for miles and miles. So the person who did this

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Speaker 1: to Amy had to be familiar with that location in

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Speaker 1: Ashlyn County. You don't just stumble upon this field. I

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Speaker 1: want to point out a case similar in this aspect

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Speaker 1: at least, and this case is you know textbook to

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Speaker 1: example for so many aspects of murder. Greg Smith joining

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Speaker 1: us Johnson County Sheriff's office is Scott Peterson. That's an

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Speaker 1: example of committing a crime or disposing of evidence in

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Speaker 1: a place with which you are familiar. Scott Peterson murdered

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Speaker 1: his wife Lacy and their unborn child, Connor, and he

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Speaker 1: went to one of his old fishing holes to dump

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Speaker 1: the body of San Francisco Bay and then places him

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Speaker 1: self at the scene of the murder on the day

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Speaker 1: of the murder. Lacy and Connor wash ashore a couple

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Speaker 1: of months later. But that's where he is familiar. That

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Speaker 1: was comfortable for him. He felt he knew the area.

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Speaker 1: So I think Greg, that nicoleover Santski's right. Yeah. They

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Speaker 1: I mean they look for places that are familiar to

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Speaker 1: them where they do feel comfortable. In addition, I mean

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Speaker 1: those of them that do some planning and really think

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Speaker 1: about these things, and our career criminals, if they have

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Speaker 1: familiar places and they're seen in those familiar places, it

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Speaker 1: also sets up an alibi for them when something is

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Speaker 1: found DNA or something else. Well, yeah, but I'm always

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Speaker 1: in this area. You're just you're just trying to pin

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Speaker 1: this on me because people have seen me here. You know.

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Speaker 1: Another issue is I was alluding to earlier about how

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Speaker 1: he could connect the little girls he meets at Francis

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Speaker 1: Scream Shop with their home address. If you can get

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Speaker 1: their home address out of them, or their phone number,

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Speaker 1: it's simple. If you could get their parents' name, he can.

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Speaker 1: You can go online and google a name a city

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Speaker 1: and get a set of phone numbers, or if you

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Speaker 1: still use the old phone book, you can do it

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Speaker 1: that way. Who is that day I'll get to jump in. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's so easy to trick a young child.

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Speaker 1: You simply make the phone call and we should all

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Speaker 1: be aware of this, and you say, I'm Jack, I'm

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Speaker 1: friends with your dad, and how's your mom doing? Is

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Speaker 1: she okay? What's going on? And the child just liberates

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Speaker 1: that information because they have no fear, They don't have

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Speaker 1: the frame of reference which teach them not to tell

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Speaker 1: people stuff like that. And if they've not been warned

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Speaker 1: about stranger danger, then they just open up because there's

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Speaker 1: a belief and they do believe that that person has

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Speaker 1: a direct connection with a family, even though they may

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Speaker 1: not be aware of it. And other thing it's it's scary,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jorry Crossen, And I've tried this on my own children.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jory is joining US Psychologist's Faculty Saint Leo University

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Speaker 1: and author doctor Jory. Studies have shown that you can

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Speaker 1: tell your children over and over about stranger danger, about

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Speaker 1: what to do if a car approaches you, or what

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Speaker 1: to do if somebody comes to the door and you

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Speaker 1: don't know them. But children immediately after hearing it, and

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Speaker 1: you just heard Nicole for Zaansky tell us they had

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Speaker 1: a stranger danger speaker in their class the day that

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Speaker 1: Amy goes missing and she still went with this guy.

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Speaker 1: I've done it with my own twins and they, you know,

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Speaker 1: they don't process the way adults process, and studies show that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they're again they're so trusting and it's so easy

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Speaker 1: to disarm them and establish that trust. One thing too,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to add in on this location. You know

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Speaker 1: when I do it with sex offenders and evaluated him

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Speaker 1: in court, you always want to get into their fantasy.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we know like serial killers would take

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Speaker 1: momentums and trophies and stuff, there's connections of where they

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Speaker 1: leave the body and the fantasy with it. So being

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Speaker 1: and out in an area where it's secluded, like she said,

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Speaker 1: and this time you drive for miles. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: a good chance he revisited it and that was part

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Speaker 1: of his fantasy to go back out there, not even

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Speaker 1: get close to the body, but by driving out there,

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Speaker 1: he's still going to start this fantasy process in his mind.

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Speaker 1: Explain what that means, doctor Jory Cross and psychologist about

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Speaker 1: living out the fantasy, including the disposal of the body.

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Speaker 1: Is that is psychologically the devancy, the perversion, that's the reward.

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Speaker 1: And if you can as a psychologist, okay doing like

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Speaker 1: a Jimmy Rice evaluation, if I can get into that

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Speaker 1: and tap into that, that's where a lot of these

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Speaker 1: whys and other things, even though we may not understand them,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of that's the psychological heart, that's

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Speaker 1: the reason in his deviation and perversion. You know, call

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Speaker 1: all the psychological terms as evilness. Basically, to think about

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Speaker 1: the way that this young girl was thrown dead on

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Speaker 1: the side of the road is so upsetting, It is

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Speaker 1: so callous. Listen to our friends at WKYC. That body

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Speaker 1: has been positively identified as that of Amy Mahalovick. But

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Speaker 1: it all came to a heartbreaking end about a quarter

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Speaker 1: of a mile down this quiet country road. February eighth,

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Speaker 1: the day the body of Amy Mahalovic was found in

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Speaker 1: a field in Ashland County, fifty miles from her home

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Speaker 1: in Bay Village. It was found there it was only

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Speaker 1: about fifteen feet from the road, uncovered and in plain

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Speaker 1: sight of numerous people driving by. She'd been stabbed, beaten,

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Speaker 1: and sexually assaulted. The manner of disposal of this body

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Speaker 1: brings two cases to mine. One is a case I

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Speaker 1: investigated and covered Chanelle Petro Nixon, beautiful young teen girl.

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Speaker 1: She went out of the apartment for an errand and

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Speaker 1: was never seen alive again. Her body was found in

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Speaker 1: a trash bag left on Kingston Avenue. It also brings

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Speaker 1: to mind the case of Nicole Lovell, thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: little girl that was lured out of her home by

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Speaker 1: a Virginia Tech student, David Eisenhower, and she was found

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Speaker 1: naked and wiped down some type of alcohol hye and

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Speaker 1: thrown naked off the side of the road. What does

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Speaker 1: that mean to you, doctor Joy? The disposal of the

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Speaker 1: body like it's trash, well, it can mean several things

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Speaker 1: and you know, that's where like the behavioral aspects like

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Speaker 1: how it's placed. You know, if it's just a card,

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Speaker 1: as like trash like you say, if it's wrapped up

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Speaker 1: in a bag. You know. Sometimes they're they're posed is

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Speaker 1: the word that we use. You know, they're they're staged.

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Speaker 1: There's there's significantly how that body. Guys take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our friends at w E WUS. Amy disappeared from

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Speaker 1: Bay Village shopping center on October twenty seventh. Police say

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Speaker 1: she'd gotten a call from a man luring her to

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Speaker 1: a nearby shopping plaza with the promise to help her

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Speaker 1: buy a gift for her mom. Well four months later,

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Speaker 1: a jogger found her body fifty miles away. Police have

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Speaker 1: a database, they say, of more than twelve thousand names

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Speaker 1: connected to this case, but so far no arrest. Her

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Speaker 1: dad says he is not giving up, just gonna take

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Speaker 1: just that one person. If you don't keep you don't

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Speaker 1: do something like that, keep it a secret, throat telling

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Speaker 1: somebody else about it. Nicole Rasanski joining us from CBS

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Speaker 1: nineteen Amy just aged ten, who disappears, her body found

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Speaker 1: assaulted and thrown by the side of the road. Her

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Speaker 1: dad very very rarely speaks of it. I understand, Nicole,

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Speaker 1: that the heartbreak is still very close to the surface.

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Speaker 1: And see, he's never gone down the road where Amy's

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Speaker 1: body was found. He sees absolutely no reason, he has

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Speaker 1: ever reason in the world to be bitter and to

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Speaker 1: be an angry man. And he is still just such

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Speaker 1: an incredibly kind, sweet, nice man. But the heartbreak, you

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Speaker 1: can still see the empness in the nye. He loves

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Speaker 1: to talk about Amy, and you know, any will and

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Speaker 1: he'll smile, and he'll talk about how when she was

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Speaker 1: five and six she was diving off the high dive,

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Speaker 1: and just what an athlete too was, and how much

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Speaker 1: she loved horses, and she used to draw him horses.

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Speaker 1: He showed me a picture once she drew him this horse,

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Speaker 1: and it was polka dotted, and you can see the

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Speaker 1: smile in his eyes. And then you know, a mental

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Speaker 1: pause and just nick it dumpty. Time doesn't heal a

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Speaker 1: wound like this? Nicole ver sans Key joining us from

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Speaker 1: CBS nineteen and destore of podcast Dark Side of the Land.

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Speaker 1: Who Killed Amy Moholovic? I want to talk to doctor

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Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree again, not only author of investigating child to

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Speaker 1: bes feel guide, but medical examiner, pathologist and author of

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Speaker 1: homicide investigation to feel a guide. What do you make

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Speaker 1: of the mode of murtyr Doctor Dupree. There's a couple

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Speaker 1: of things. One, I'd like to just go back a

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Speaker 1: moment and talk about the method of disposal. This is

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Speaker 1: very open, it is there's no forensic countermeasures taken. This

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Speaker 1: is a disorganized killer. Slowdown when you just throw out

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Speaker 1: the term forensic countermeasures, explain, So, forensic countermeasures are things

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Speaker 1: that people may do to try and hide the crime.

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Speaker 1: They take some type of staging would be a forensic countermeasure.

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Speaker 1: In this case, you know, the body wasn't staged. It

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Speaker 1: was just sort of left. You mean, like Alex murdag

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Speaker 1: using two guns to suggest someone else was involved in

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Speaker 1: the killing, got it exactly exactly. So no countermeasures here,

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Speaker 1: And what does that mean to you in addition to

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Speaker 1: the mode of death. So that means to me that

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Speaker 1: it's basically sort of not very well planned, if you will,

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Speaker 1: and again that it's a disorganized type of killer. They

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Speaker 1: may have done this before. That's actually very good because

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Speaker 1: there was some there was some other children that were contacted.

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Speaker 1: He was looking to do this. I think that's obvious

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Speaker 1: by the whole scenario, Nancy. If I could jump in

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Speaker 1: for just a moment, as far as there are indications

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Speaker 1: we know, yes this is Nicole, go ahead because I

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Speaker 1: was going to ask you about prior hang up calls,

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Speaker 1: But go ahead. There are indications that her Amy's body

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Speaker 1: was wrapped in a blanket and a curtain, and there

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Speaker 1: are also items that were taken from her. There are

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Speaker 1: items that are missing to this day that Amy was

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Speaker 1: wearing the day she disappeared. Interesting, I wonder if those

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Speaker 1: were souvenirs. And about that curtain, take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends at NIE's five Cleveland Baby Village. Police are

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Speaker 1: so focused on this curtain found three hundred yards away

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Speaker 1: from Maholivick's body in a field in Ashland County. Who's

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Speaker 1: always thought that they were connected somehow, And now, through

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Speaker 1: the advance of DNA technology and testing, when we've been

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Speaker 1: able to determine that Amy's hair was actually on that curtain,

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Speaker 1: investigators urge anyone who can help identify this curtain to

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Speaker 1: contact them. The curtain is it's very unique. It almost

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Speaker 1: looks to be handmade. Back to you, Nicover sands Key,

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Speaker 1: tell me again about clothing missing from ten year old

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Speaker 1: Amy's body and the curtain. Turquoise horsehead earrings one okay, wow,

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Speaker 1: turquoise horsehead earrings okay, black ankle height riding boots, a

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Speaker 1: black leather binder that her dad gave her. It has

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Speaker 1: had buick basting class on it. Her book bag, and

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Speaker 1: a white wind breaker. Those items are very likely in

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Speaker 1: the possession of the person who did this to Amy.

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Speaker 1: The culver, Sansky, you're so right to doctor Jerry Cross

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Speaker 1: and psychologist killers, especially serial killers, keet mementos, they're victims.

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Speaker 1: It can be like in this case, earrings, shoes, underwear,

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Speaker 1: we all sorts of things. What motivates them to do that.

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Speaker 1: That's part of that fantasy that they can relive it

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Speaker 1: and adjust it fitted into their demanded mind as to

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Speaker 1: how it came about. So you know that they call them,

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Speaker 1: you know, trophies, but they are things to remember this behavior,

428
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: this act, this person again in their mind. And you

429
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: know again when you tie in like the sexual offenders,

430
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: it has to do with the violence and the perversion

431
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: that fantasy life that they have. Del Carson joining me,

432
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former fed with

433
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: the FBI. Dell, I'm a big scrapbooker. I in my mind,

434
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: killers take these mementos from their victims just the same

435
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: way I would put ticket stubs or a photo in

436
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: one of my scrap puts. Well, it's the remembrance. But

437
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: I talked this for the Bureau the sex offenders, and

438
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: I will simply tell you it's part of the ritualization.

439
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: And what you find is that they behave this way

440
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: and it changes and gets more internally complex over time.

441
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: So that's one way is to track the serial killer.

442
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 1: You find that they do it this way, it's not successful.

443
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: They have to add something to it as part of

444
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: the ritualization. And that's how we can track these individuals

445
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: over time and see how long they've been engaged in

446
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: the activity. So when you see a disorganized killer like

447
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: this who simply throws the body out and throws the

448
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: containing material out at a different location, is very disorganized.

449
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: You'll find that they become better at it as they

450
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 1: move along. It's frightening, guys. Speaking of the curtain of that,

451
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: Nico over Sansky first told us all of a sudden,

452
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: handmade looking curtain a curtain that was found yards and

453
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: yards away from her body now reveals that one of

454
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: her hairs was all that curtain. It did not come

455
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: from her family home. Take a listen to our friend

456
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: Peggy Gallant Fox eight. Law enforcement officials have taken DNA

457
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: samples from people as recently as a couple months ago.

458
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: We just don't want to miss anything, and that's why

459
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: they're continuing. And a detective with the Bay Village Police

460
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: Department tells the IT team that a lot of the

461
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: DNA testing they are doing now is to help eliminate

462
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: possible suspects and to make sure any of the DNA

463
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: they do have is not what they refer to as

464
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: contamination DNA, such as a hair from a law enforcement

465
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 1: agent that was at the scene. So we're always ruling

466
00:29:49,040 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: people out or checking people that were previous suspects. Time

467
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Law enforcement officials have taken DNA

468
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: samples from people as recently as a couple months ago.

469
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: We just don't want to miss anything, and that's why

470
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: they're they're continuing, And a detective with the Bay Village

471
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: Police Department tells the IT team that a lot of

472
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: the DNA testing they are doing now is to help

473
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: eliminate possible suspects and to make sure any of the

474
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: DNA they do have is not what they refer to

475
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: as contamination DNA, such as a hair from a law

476
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: enforcement agent that was at the scene. So we're always

477
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: ruling people out or checking people that were previous suspects.

478
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: Joining me right now, very special guests. You know her well,

479
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: Shira la Point, genetic genealogist, author of the gene Hunter

480
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: That's GNA and founder of the gene hunter dot com

481
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter. LaPoint, Shia, sure, thank you for being with us.

482
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: Boy do we need you now? You know you can't

483
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: just run the hair. We have to now use very

484
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: sophisticated miticondual DNA analysis, and that type of analysis has

485
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: been refined dealing specifically with contaminated DNA. What do you

486
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: make of what you're hearing? What should be done? DNA?

487
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: Was hey? Shir up? Before you answer that question? Listener. WKYC,

488
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: a ten year old girl who loved horses and wore

489
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: a cross around her neck in one of the most

490
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: shared missing children's posters of all time, murdered. Her killer

491
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: never caught, while her story became the subject of documentaries

492
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: featured over the years on talk shows, as investigators continued

493
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: their public outreach with billboards sharing as well. This handmade

494
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: curtain and blanket found within feet of Amy's body. Believe

495
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: she was wrapped in it, hoping that someone might recognize

496
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: where it came from. But so far nothing. Okay, sure,

497
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: all point. You're the genetic genealogists, do your thing, Nancy.

498
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: We have a quilt that was made into a curtain.

499
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: Someone cut up a corner and made tabs. That tells

500
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: me that if we can get DNA off that curtain,

501
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: it would tell us Number one, possibly we made the

502
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: curtain where it comes from. But also she was wrapped

503
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: in that homemade curtain. We shed approximately four hundred thousand

504
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: epithelial sales a day. Whoever carried her and left her

505
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: in that field, it's a good chance their DNA is

506
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: actually on that curtain. And nowadays we can take the

507
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: graded DNA from a curtain that she was wrapped in

508
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: thirty two years ago and find small amounts of DNA

509
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: to get an accurate profile and figure out using genetic

510
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: genealogy who touched that curtain. And that's going to give

511
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: us some answers. They were able to prove that it

512
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: was her hair on that curtain. But there are new

513
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: forensic grade genome sequencing DNA that can be done now

514
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: to help us figure this out. How hard is it,

515
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: Cheryl appoint the gene hunter to extract usable DNA from

516
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: a contaminated source. It has been historically very very difficult

517
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: to do. But with the advancements in DNA technology that

518
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: we have private forensic labs that are doing work like

519
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: Opera that can take these cases with little, little evidence

520
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,959
Speaker 1: or degraded DNA and they can break it down and

521
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: it would give genetic information that would help us build

522
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: a family tree to figure out whose DNA is on

523
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: that curtain based on epiphilial cell skin cells that were

524
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: left on the curtain. Absolutely that is the DNA that

525
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: you would be looking at, and it would be autosomal

526
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: DNA that could be used to figure this out, and

527
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: it would tell us number one, in my opinion, who

528
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: maybe even who made the curtain, where the curtain came from.

529
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: And I just I have to believe that the perpetrator's

530
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 1: DNA is absolutely on that curtain. You know, I'm curious

531
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: to culver Sanski joining us CBS nineteen and star of

532
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: Dark Side of the Land who killed Amy Mahalovick Nicole

533
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: she had been sex assaulted. Was there no sperm left behind?

534
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: Let's consider she was likely dumped very shortly after she

535
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: was abducted. She was in that field until February. Gosh. Yeah,

536
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: But I do want to mention over the past, speaking

537
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: to testing and DNA testing, over the past two years,

538
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: they've spent about seventy five thousand dollars on advanced DNA testing.

539
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: And again, that biggest hurdle is that this is thirty

540
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: two years old, and that is a big zactor in

541
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: the quality of any of the DNA that they do test.

542
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: And then there's a risk there because oftentimes when you're

543
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,239
Speaker 1: testing this evidence, you're you know, you're ruining that evidence. Well,

544
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 1: there is a way that DNA can be extended. You

545
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: regenerate the DNA in the lab to create an f

546
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: DNA to perform additional tests. Not always true, but often true.

547
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: Is there a twist in the case. Take a listen

548
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: to our cut nine our friends at Needs five Cleveland.

549
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: The details come straight out of recently filed court documents.

550
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: They're the sworn statements of the lead detective with Bay

551
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: Village police following up on a tip suggesting on now

552
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: sixty four year old man could be Amy Mahalovic's killer.

553
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: According to a sworn affidavit, that tip came back in

554
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: January twenty nineteen, a woman told detectives she suspected her

555
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend killed the ten year old Bay Village girl.

556
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: We're not naming the man since he hasn't in charge

557
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: with anything. According to police, she said the man never

558
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 1: came home the night Amy Mahalovic disappeared from the Bay

559
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: Village Square shopping center and more in our cut tim

560
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: from these five Cleveland investigators say the woman did hear

561
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: from the man that night, though a phone call asking

562
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: if she was aware of news coverage about Amy's disappearance.

563
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: During that call, the woman told police the man said

564
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: his niece and brother's family knew Mahalovic. In fact, police

565
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 1: say the man's niece was the same age and in

566
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: the same grade as Amy, and the woman also believed

567
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: she recalled her ex boyfriend tell her he knew Amy

568
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: for years. Police have said prior to her abduction, the

569
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: ten year old received a phone call from a man

570
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: and wanting to arrange a meeting with the girl to

571
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,959
Speaker 1: help pick out a gift for Amy's mother. So that's

572
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: amazing to me. They call for sansky that this now

573
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: sixty four year old man says that his niece was

574
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 1: the same age and the same grade as Amy. Why

575
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: would this guy? They asking, had she seen the news coverage?

576
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: Isn't it true he walked into the police station and

577
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: gave a statement either all incredible questions, Nancy, But I

578
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 1: will tell you detectives are keeping pretty tight to their

579
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: vest with this one. They have their eye on suspects plural,

580
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: and the most they will say is that, yes, one

581
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: of them have come up recently. I think the fear

582
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: here is that they don't want to put all their

583
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: eggs in a basket and have someone out there who

584
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: knows something or thinks they might have information think, oh,

585
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: they got their guy. Well, why don't they just do

586
00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: a DNA analysis with the most advanced technique. But there's

587
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: even more to what this guy is saying. Take a

588
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: listen to our cut eleven news five. Cleveland police say

589
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: during an interview with a man in the fall of

590
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, the man quote indicated he may have met

591
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: Mahalavak's mother in a bar and that quote maybe he

592
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: didn't know who he was talking to. Police say they

593
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: asked the man whether he ever called Amy prior to

594
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: her abduction. The detective wrote, the man said I could have,

595
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: and that it could have been a wrong number. According

596
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: to court documents, when asked again if there was a

597
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: possibility that he called her, the man said yes. Del Carson.

598
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: Why is a man in his thirties calling a ten

599
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: year old little girl all the fact, Well, there can

600
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: be no good reason for that, obviously, but it does

601
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: demonstrate the link that the child perceived was with her family,

602
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: because she could say, He could say to her, my

603
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: niece is in school with you, and I would like

604
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: to match up with you. Those were all mechanism keys

605
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: to the lock of self protection that opens up and

606
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: allows him to continue to manipulate the child. As of

607
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: right now, after all the years have passed, Amy's father

608
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: still holding out hope that her killer will be apprehended.

609
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. The tip line four four

610
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: zero eight seven one one two three four repeat four

611
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: four zero eight seven one one two three four. Goodbye friend,