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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're

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Speaker 2: a weekly reminder twice a week reminder that sometimes Margaret

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Speaker 2: runs rerun episodes. Actually that's not very often, but it

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Speaker 2: is this week and you already know that because you're

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Speaker 2: not listening to just Wednesday's episode. That would be strange.

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Speaker 2: But either way, this is a rerun and thanks for

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Speaker 2: putting up with that. But it's a good story and

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Speaker 2: I think you'll like it. Hello and welcome to Cool People,

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Speaker 2: Did Cool Stuff, the show where you don't get to

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Speaker 2: be the one who decides what's cool. Instead, I the host,

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Speaker 2: Margaret Kiljoy decide what's cool, which is a strange irony,

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Speaker 2: but there's no way around it because no one can

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Speaker 2: start podcasts because it's illegal and the law and morality

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Speaker 2: are identical. Our guest today is Jamie loftus Ty Jamie.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Margaret, dude to my status is starting a podcast?

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Speaker 1: I am current considered a fugitive. That's true, but I

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Speaker 1: think but I think it's actually I think it's it's

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Speaker 1: worth it to get my little ideas out into the world.

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Speaker 2: When podcasts are outlawed, only outlawso podcast.

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Speaker 1: Me and Deck Shepherd against the world.

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Speaker 2: That's right. That's why we're all going to get the vests.

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Speaker 2: But we're not gonna tell you what I mean by that. Instead,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna introduce the producer, Sophie. That's me, matron of crime.

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Speaker 2: I'll take it, okay, and are well now. I just

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Speaker 2: feel bad saying the names of everyone involved because they're

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Speaker 2: all doing crime. But Ian is our audio engineer, and

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Speaker 2: everyone is to say Hi Ian, Hi, Ian.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Hi Ian, Sorry about your recent uh breaking the

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Speaker 1: law by participating in this evil empire. Oh Jamie, you

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Speaker 1: know you're my partner in crime and that you're the mastermind.

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: It's true?

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Speaker 2: What are you? Jader? Behind them, behind all producers. Yes,

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Speaker 2: the theme music was written for us by someone who

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Speaker 2: will not be named lest unwoman get in trouble, and

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Speaker 2: it worked. Thanks Proud of that one. Today is part

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Speaker 2: two of a two parter, which is the first time

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Speaker 2: that's ever happened, not the ninety eighth time that's ever

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Speaker 2: happened in part one. Okay, this time we're talking about

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Speaker 2: Negro for It, which was a really amazing maroon community

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Speaker 2: in Florida when it was Spanish Florida that the US

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Speaker 2: went and fucked up. In part one, I talked about

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Speaker 2: how a ton of Indigenous folks were real mad at

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Speaker 2: the Americans. Right now I want to talk about what

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Speaker 2: had beens just stolen from them, which is to say,

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Speaker 2: I get to talk about everyone's favorite person, Andrew Jackson. Yes,

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Speaker 2: if you ever meet someone who thinks that Andrew Jackson

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Speaker 2: is a good person, then you have met a bad person,

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Speaker 2: or at best, a terribly badly informed person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I would say, don't waste your time trying to

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Speaker 1: fix them unless I know, you know, you've only we've

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Speaker 1: only got so much time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's and if it's like your best friend, no,

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Speaker 2: if it's your dad, I don't know whatever. Andrew Jackson

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Speaker 2: before the War of eighteen twelve, no one really knew

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Speaker 2: him outside of Tennessee. He grew up a backwoods guy.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't actually poor. He later inherited two hundred acres,

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Speaker 2: but he grew up backwoods along the North and South

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Speaker 2: Carolina border shortly before the Revolutionary War, and he grew

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Speaker 2: up hating Indigenous people and British people. And this was

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Speaker 2: like his main thing, and like stop clock on the

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Speaker 2: British thing. But you know whatever, the Revolutionary war had

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Speaker 2: killed his mother, his only parent, and two of his brothers,

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Speaker 2: so he was really into hating the British. He also

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Speaker 2: hated indigenous people because he was a racist piece of

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Speaker 2: shit dick. He quickly left the backwoods and became a

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Speaker 2: Southern gentleman, which of course meant buying and selling people.

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Speaker 2: Right come the War of eighteen twelve, he was like,

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Speaker 2: let's go kill the britsin Indians, capture Florida. Woooo and

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Speaker 2: that was that was his war crime. In eighteen thirteen,

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Speaker 2: the Muscogee had what was called the Creek Civil War

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Speaker 2: because they were mostly called the Creek. On one side,

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Speaker 2: you have the Americanized folks who were, you know, had

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Speaker 2: just been like they'd been like doing the more settled thing.

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Speaker 2: They're starting to grow, build plantations. They were really into

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Speaker 2: the chattel slavery thing. On the other side, you had

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Speaker 2: the Red Sticks who were like, yeah, fuck all that,

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Speaker 2: and they would attack forts and kill everyone there except

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Speaker 2: the enslaved people who were freed who then joined them.

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Speaker 2: So Andrew Jackson just went just like went around and

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Speaker 2: burned down every Muscogi village that he could find, which like.

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Speaker 1: A like a gentleman would, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: People tend to conveniently forget that usually everyone on all

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Speaker 2: sides of any given war of colonization kills civilians every

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Speaker 2: single chance they can get. It's like a hard conversation

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Speaker 2: to have, so we all try to not have it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and all the history books that we get in

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Speaker 1: American public schools do not reflect it because it complicates

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Speaker 1: things too much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you pick one side to decide that they kill

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Speaker 2: civilians and then the other side doesn't.

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Speaker 1: That is the way to civilian life, the ultimate complicating factor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. But you know, I think that there's a

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Speaker 2: difference between colonial and anti colonial violence, and you know,

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Speaker 2: not to just whatever. Anyway, now I'm accidentally getting into

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Speaker 2: the motorn shit. Most of the Red Sticks died in

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Speaker 2: battle against Jackson. They were out number two to one

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Speaker 2: at Horseshoe Bend in Alabama. Maybe all die so bravely. Basically,

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Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson was promoted to major general for massacring all

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Speaker 2: these people who outnumbered and then immediately got the Allied

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Speaker 2: Muscogee people to sign away twenty three million acres of

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Speaker 2: their territory, basically stole it from them. Basically, it was like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: now you're just gonna give us all the shit because

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Speaker 2: we want it. Yeah, any idea how big twenty three

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Speaker 2: million acres is. It's like one of those numbers that's

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Speaker 2: a meaningless number. No, right, I can tell you it

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Speaker 2: was like a county, and I could tell you it

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Speaker 2: was like the eastern Seaboards.

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Speaker 1: Right at Florida.

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Speaker 2: It's about half modern Florida.

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Speaker 1: Okay, twenty three million, only half.

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Speaker 2: I mean Florida's big, though, I mean, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 2: big fucking state. You ever like drive through Florida and

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Speaker 2: you're like, this is no, no way, this is going

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Speaker 2: to feel like driving through Texas that takes years, but

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Speaker 2: then it does.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: It is, especially like driving to Miami.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's gigantic, and also like there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of I don't know, it's such a large state that

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Speaker 1: I think, like Texas, there's also like regional specificity that

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Speaker 1: get's kind of totally.

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Speaker 2: So everyone's mad, right, because he just took so much

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Speaker 2: fucking land, And this terrible loss is why the Brits

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Speaker 2: had so much luck recruiting indigenous people in the area,

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Speaker 2: because even those who had been allied with the US

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Speaker 2: had just been fucked and so it was up to

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Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson. Everyone decided, probably including Andrew Jackson, that was

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Speaker 2: up to him to smash the pesky interracial Army, which

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Speaker 2: to be clear, absolutely was planning to go fuck up

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Speaker 2: the US South and free from tyrannical American government. That

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Speaker 2: was absolutely their goal. Nichols, the Irishman, gave speeches about

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Speaker 2: how they would quote unrivet the chains of every person

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Speaker 2: still held in slavery. So they attacked the cool interracial

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Speaker 2: army right their first at the Colonial Marines or whatever

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Speaker 2: I said their name, like eight times you think i'd

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Speaker 2: remember the core of Colonial Marines. The first attack on

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Speaker 2: Alabama did not go well for the British, and grape

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Speaker 2: shot took out nichols right eye and he'll never see

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Speaker 2: out of it again. It will not stop him from

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Speaker 2: continuing to fight in battles where he gets edit and

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Speaker 2: doesn't stop. So they were treated and they got back

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Speaker 2: to recruiting people. They were like, okay, well we need

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Speaker 2: more people, and so they helped more and more people

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Speaker 2: escape slavery. At least they end up taking over Pensacola

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Speaker 2: for a minute, because it's not really under American control

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Speaker 2: e they're so it's sort of easy. At least two

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Speaker 2: thirds of Pensacola's and slave population was recruited during this time,

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Speaker 2: and all the slave owners would like go and be like,

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Speaker 2: come on, Britz, give us back our people. And the

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Speaker 2: Brits just laughed and we're like, nah, we have guns

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Speaker 2: and shit, you're gonna fuck off now. Okay, So they're

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Speaker 2: being cool. They're up to some cool stuff. November eighteen fourteen,

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Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson invaded Pensacola and outnumbered the British Florida one.

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Speaker 2: So the multiracial army fled and they blew up their

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Speaker 2: fortifications as they went and went back to the British post,

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Speaker 2: which is the fort that they had built along the

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Speaker 2: Apologicola River. They grow there to a force of about

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Speaker 2: fifteen hundred. As more and more indigenous warriors show up.

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Speaker 2: There's like numbers that go all over the place, all

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Speaker 2: the different like estimates where they're like, oh, they got

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Speaker 2: three thousand, they got fifteen hundred, they got one thousand,

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Speaker 2: there's three hundred of them. It's like all over the

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Speaker 2: fucking place, the numbers.

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Speaker 1: God, okay, and how many like different sources is it

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Speaker 1: coming from us? It just depends.

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Speaker 2: It just depends. A lot of it is that it

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Speaker 2: was very variable by time. And then also a lot

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Speaker 2: of history doesn't necessarily like stay perfectly linear in how

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Speaker 2: they describe these things, you know. I think that it's

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Speaker 2: like at its largest. Also, a lot of the sources,

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Speaker 2: like Americans, kept exaggerating the size of this force because

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Speaker 2: they were like, this is the this is armageddon, you know,

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Speaker 2: and so like there's like ones that are like there's

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Speaker 2: fifteen thousand of them, but that's like a pro slavery

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Speaker 2: America newspaper giving that number. For example, more and more

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Speaker 2: Indigenous warriors starts showing up, and then they start paying

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Speaker 2: indigenous slave owners for the freedom of their slaves at

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Speaker 2: about a I want to say about thirty dollars ahead,

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Speaker 2: which is like way less than market rate. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of a like we'll pay you to free slaves, but

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Speaker 2: we won't pay like white people to free slaves in America.

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Speaker 2: Those were just going to go capture, you know. On

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Speaker 2: December twenty fourth, eighteen fourteen, the War of eighteen twelve

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Speaker 2: was officially over by the signing of the Treaty of Ghent,

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Speaker 2: but they didn't have cell phones, so the war raged

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Speaker 2: on until news came months and months later that it

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Speaker 2: had already ended in a draw because it didn't go

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Speaker 2: well for either side. Basically both sides just fucked each

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Speaker 2: other up.

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Speaker 1: And it also, yeah, it also didn't just go in

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Speaker 1: eighteen twelve. But that's that's that's the most that's the

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Speaker 1: saddest thing in the world to me. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: in like a casualty of war sense where you you, like,

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Speaker 1: if someone you loved was killed after the war had

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Speaker 1: been resolved and you found that out later, I simply

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Speaker 1: don't know what I would do.

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Speaker 2: There's like World War One had that a lot, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's fucking it, is it? It would on either side

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Speaker 2: like that would kind of fuck me up, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 2: because then it was like a even this like, for example,

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Speaker 2: the Americans are about to pull out their greatest victory

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Speaker 2: in the War of eighteen twelve, after the war is over.

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Speaker 2: The Battle of New Orleans, made famous by a song

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Speaker 2: that I don't remember who sings and don't listen too.

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Speaker 1: Much, don't know.

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Speaker 2: On January eighth, eighteen fifteen, British soldiers attacked New Orleans

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Speaker 2: and Nichol's army was like, yeah, we're gonna lead. We

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Speaker 2: volunteer to like lead the landing. We're going to go

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Speaker 2: fuck these fucking slavers up. But they were told that

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Speaker 2: they couldn't join. They were basically too valuable to risk,

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Speaker 2: like they had, you know, the British and other military

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Speaker 2: plans for them. The Battle of New Orleans was like

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Speaker 2: not a huge deal from the British point of view,

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Speaker 2: and the British army got wrecked. Like two thousand dead

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Speaker 2: to fourteen dead on the American side is what I read. God,

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Speaker 2: it's like enough that I'm like, that's fucked. You know.

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Speaker 2: That is because they tried to march through a swamp

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Speaker 2: at an entrenched position, and they were also arrogant. They

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Speaker 2: were like, we are the most civilized in advanced army

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Speaker 2: in the world. Of course we're going to wreck this

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Speaker 2: like Motley Force, you know, right. And Andrew Jackson was

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Speaker 2: in charge of defending New Orleans. This is a big

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Speaker 2: This is like where is like fame like fucking comes

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Speaker 2: from at the time. Now he's mostly famous as a butcher.

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Speaker 2: He did the unthinkable when he defended New Orleans. He

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Speaker 2: armed enslaved people. He promised people their freedom if they

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Speaker 2: fought for the Americans. Then after the battle, he did

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Speaker 2: the thinkable, which was he said, not just fucking kidding

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Speaker 2: your fucking property, not people giving back the guns off

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Speaker 2: to jol.

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Speaker 1: That isn't the most Andrew Jackson thing in the fucking

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Speaker 1: world to do, is Yeah, yeah, promise advancement to read

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Speaker 1: nag on it later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the most annoying things about reading the

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Speaker 2: nineteenth century like pro and anti slavery shit is watching

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Speaker 2: all of the people on all sides argue about whether

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Speaker 2: or not black people would be any good in a fight.

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Speaker 2: And like people refer to Andrew Jackson as like practically

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Speaker 2: anti racist in that he like he was like he

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Speaker 2: respected that black people knew how to fight for whatever.

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Speaker 2: I hate him and I hate everything about him.

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Speaker 1: One manu, Yeah, I can't can't hand it to him

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Speaker 1: for that.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely, exactly, absolutely not. And the fact that that

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Speaker 2: is a thing that is like constantly brought up, and

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Speaker 2: it is a thing that like even like a lot

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Speaker 2: of the British are doing during this point. They're like, whoa,

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Speaker 2: Like I didn't know that you all were like not

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Speaker 2: racially inferior, you know.

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Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, It's like we didn't know, we assumed

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Speaker 1: that you were not competent in like, it's what a treat,

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Speaker 1: What a treat to be told that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So one man who was promises freedom was this

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Speaker 2: guy named James Roberts. During the battle, he killed six

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Speaker 2: British soldiers in hand to hand combat, losing a finger

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Speaker 2: and taking a sword across the face in the process,

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Speaker 2: and he survived. After the battle, the Americans disarmed him,

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Speaker 2: stripped him, sent him to prison, and then sent him

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Speaker 2: to the plantation where he'd come from. He later said, quote,

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Speaker 2: had there been less bravery with us, and he means

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Speaker 2: the armed enslaved people, the British would have gained the victory,

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Speaker 2: and in that event, they would have set the slaves free.

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Speaker 2: So that I see now how we in that war

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Speaker 2: contributed to fasten our own chains tighter? What about fucking heartbreaking? Yeah, like.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, no, I mean no, it's yeah, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I feel like it just speaks to the the helplessness

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Speaker 1: of the situation and just that they're like are ultimately no,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, there's no good imperial force to ally with,

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Speaker 1: if you can believe it, in this case, there's a

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Speaker 1: better one.

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Speaker 2: Everyone who fought for the British not only were they freed,

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Speaker 2: but so were their families. Oh wow, okay, and Andrew

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Speaker 2: Jackson after they like after the folks who fight and

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Speaker 2: then they they flee whatever. Andrew Jackson figures that he

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Speaker 2: can now show up. He's like, he just crushed the British, right,

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Speaker 2: so he's like, I'm just going to show up and

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Speaker 2: be like, yo, give us back our property. And the

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Speaker 2: British were like, no, we're good, and once again all

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Speaker 2: the like slave owners go and they're like, they're like,

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Speaker 2: same deal as always. You can come and not buy worse,

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Speaker 2: ask people to return to you. And so all these

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Speaker 2: like slave owners like showed up and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: of course they're gonna come back. We're gonna like ask nicely. Right.

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Speaker 2: A few people in this case did end up going back. Basically,

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Speaker 2: I think that they thought that they might get abandoned

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Speaker 2: and killed, and they just were looking to their options.

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Speaker 2: Almost everyone was like, no chance in fucking hell will

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Speaker 2: we do that. One newly freed wagon driver told us,

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Speaker 2: former master, you may carry my head along with you,

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Speaker 2: but as to my body, it will remain here, like

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Speaker 2: it's just the time of metal quotes.

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Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, I was like, there's really some bangers in

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Speaker 1: this story, like one after the other. Yeah, and they

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Speaker 1: still don't know the war's over. So Nichol's army is

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Speaker 1: now thirty five hundred strong and they get ready to invade,

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Speaker 1: and they're gonna just fucking go fuck up the American South.

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Speaker 1: The war's over. But they're like, let they don't know,

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Speaker 1: Scho girls, Well, they don't know.

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Speaker 2: It, right, right?

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Speaker 1: Right? Do we know how exactly how long after this is.

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Speaker 2: We're still only like a month or so later. I

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Speaker 2: don't remember the well, okay, So, like the treaty was signed,

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Speaker 2: Battle of New Orleans is January eighth, and so then

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Speaker 2: like pretty immediately afterwards, right, it's like a week or

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Speaker 2: two later or something. They're like, we're getting ready to

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Speaker 2: go do this thing, but then news of the truce

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Speaker 2: comes before they get a chance to do it. And

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Speaker 2: so Nichols's army basically it's like never really put to

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Speaker 2: the test. And you know. So then Spain's like, all right, great,

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Speaker 2: the war's over. Can we have our enslaved people back?

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Speaker 2: And Nichols was like nah. And then Spade was like,

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Speaker 2: but there's no legal basis for that, and Nichols was like,

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Speaker 2: I don't really care Nick got Nick go. Yeah. It

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Speaker 2: was hilarious because the deal was that under the Spanish

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Speaker 2: territorial law, it was okay for slaves escaping the US

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Speaker 2: to be freed, but not Spanish slaves, like anyone escaping

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Speaker 2: a Spanish owner, right, okay. And so there's all these

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Speaker 2: slaves with Hispanic last names who only spoke Spanish, and

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Speaker 2: Nichols is like, nah, that guy's American, you know, And

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Speaker 2: they'd be like, no, I swear that that's our guy.

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Speaker 2: Nicholas just be like, no, it's not you go ooh,

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Speaker 2: I also have a lot of guns.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, gigantic bluff.

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Speaker 2: I love it. Yeah. In the end, Nichols presented each

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Speaker 2: person who had fought or was there a certificate of freedom,

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Speaker 2: saying that their service in the military meant that they

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Speaker 2: were free, and that basically that the Spanish delegates could

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Speaker 2: eat it. The Spanish delegates are like there when he's

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Speaker 2: passing out these certificates.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 2: And he also gave the soldiers all of their wages

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Speaker 2: for the entire time, which is the whole thing. And

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Speaker 2: like even the Army of the North and during the

336
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Speaker 2: Civil War like decades later, was like real bad at

337
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,919
Speaker 2: pain black soldiers you know. So he's like, here's all

338
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Speaker 2: your money. You can keep the uniform that you are

339
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 2: officially discharged from service because the war is over. And

340
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,439
Speaker 2: these certificates that he gave them kept a bunch of

341
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Speaker 2: people free down the line because there's like all this

342
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,159
Speaker 2: shit where like because Nichols rules in Britain sucks, you know,

343
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Speaker 2: and so like later a lot of these freed people

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Speaker 2: like go to other British colonies and people are like, no,

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Speaker 2: you're not free, and they have to be like, ah,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to take it to court and I have

347
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 2: this document and shit, you know. So he made a

348
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,200
Speaker 2: fucking paper trail. He based it on nothing. He based

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00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,440
Speaker 2: it on I want these people to be free. Here's

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Speaker 2: a document.

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Speaker 1: God that fucking rocks. Yeah, totally another a win for

352
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,679
Speaker 1: the Irish, a win for fighting Nichols. Yeah, just having

353
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Speaker 1: an army, a bunch of guns and a big old

354
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Speaker 1: lie and actually being on the right side of history.

355
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Speaker 1: And the war ended a month ago secretly, great great,

356
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Speaker 1: great great great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he tried one lass thing, but the

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Speaker 2: British government didn't go for it. Basically he was like,

359
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 2: we will absolutely keep this war going if you don't

360
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,120
Speaker 2: give the Muscogee back the land at Andrew Jackson stole

361
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 2: those twenty three million acres, we will absolutely go to

362
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Speaker 2: war for it. And then Britain was like, no, no, no,

363
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 2: not so much. We're not going to do that. But

364
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,679
Speaker 2: they did stand by the emancipation of five thousand enslaved

365
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 2: people who had escaped to British Territory in April eighteen fifteen.

366
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Speaker 2: Nichols and the rest of the white British unit lefty.

367
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Speaker 2: This gets like a little blurry. They had this intention

368
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Speaker 2: to return in six months or maybe a year, and

369
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,360
Speaker 2: maybe it was to help transport everyone away, but then

370
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 2: other people were like, no, he was never planning on

371
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,159
Speaker 2: coming back, and people chose to stay there because they

372
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Speaker 2: wanted to just live there and keep the fort and shit.

373
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Speaker 2: And the reason I want I want to like Nichols,

374
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 2: and two the other reason I kind of trust him

375
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:57,199
Speaker 2: about this. He leaves this fort intact fully armed with

376
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 2: hundreds of guns like cannon, powder keg after powder keg,

377
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 2: like this is a fully. He doesn't take any of

378
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: the food like he As far as I can tell,

379
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 2: he just right by the people. The one thing he

380
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 2: fucked up is he left a white guy in charge. Oh,

381
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Speaker 2: he's gonna fuck off soon, don't worry, Okay.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but I just, based on what you just described,

383
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Speaker 1: I'm tempted to want to give a good faith reading

384
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Speaker 1: of that because other other than just like fucking off

385
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Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, and like, you know,

386
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,919
Speaker 1: completely like it sounds like there was the intent of

387
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Speaker 1: some longevity there.

388
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And when he leaves, it transports a ton of

389
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 2: the formally enslaved people with them when they leave, but

390
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 2: a lot of people stick around. But they leave this

391
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: white guy named Hambly around and they're like, all right,

392
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: this guy's in charge. And he was like he had

393
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 2: been he was local to the area, and he had

394
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 2: been like an important part of a lot of the

395
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: conversations with indigenous leader and stuff, and he had worked

396
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 2: for the trading post that was what used to be

397
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: there before the fort. So Nichols leaves. He goes on

398
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 2: to continue his life to go fuck up slave ships

399
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: in Atlantic. A bunch of black soldiers leave with him

400
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,360
Speaker 2: and they go off to live in Bermuda and shit.

401
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 2: About three hundred black families remain at the fort, which

402
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 2: is fully stocked in armed by the British. Before their departure,

403
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,159
Speaker 2: and British post becomes Negro Po Negro Fort, and the

404
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 2: Spanish authorities couldn't do shit about it because it was

405
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,959
Speaker 2: fully stocked and armed fort. So what the fuck are

406
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 2: they going to do about it? Because one thing that

407
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: history teaches you is that often the law doesn't matter

408
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: if you have enough guns.

409
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Speaker 1: And this can go a lot of ways.

410
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, it goes bad and good, yes, constantly, yeah, yes,

411
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: but generally true. Yeah, some of the black families and

412
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 2: soldiers they actually had come with the British in the

413
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 2: first place, from Virginia or the Caribbean and decided to

414
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: stick around because they were like, actually, if we stay here,

415
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: there's this amazing community of resistance that's being built. It's

416
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: basically like being built as a maroon community right away.

417
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 2: And so a bunch of people who came from elsewhere

418
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: who were just British soldiers were like, nas where weren't

419
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: gonna be? Yeah, Indigenous fighters stuck around as well, or

420
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: they lived in the area immediately around it. But one

421
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 2: thing that they didn't have that you and I have

422
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 2: is access to Actually, I'm sure there were ads. There

423
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: are probably a ton of ads, but our ads are

424
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: more developed.

425
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: But not with the weird little music beds that not

426
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: the little beet boop beat boops that you get on

427
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: a podcast ad. There's a unique kind of gorgeous, annoying

428
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 1: musical cadence to a podcast add there really is.

429
00:23:49,640 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, and here they are and we're back. So

430
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: how do you think that America took the fact that

431
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: when the British left, they left a armed maroon community

432
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: in a fort that was incredibly defensible?

433
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 3: Oh?

434
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: I think in the way America always takes things calmly,

435
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: reasonably and wanting to be inclusive and extend that American

436
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: dream to everybody.

437
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: Is that correct? It's close and they you know, they

438
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: probably were like, well, that's not America. Why is it

439
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: any of our business? Mm hmm. But unfortunately everything is

440
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: America's business, Jamie Loftus and the existence of this fort

441
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: scared the shit out of white people, just fucking kept

442
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: people up at night. This was going to destroy everything

443
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: they loved about America. There's newspapers all over the country

444
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: screaming and yelling about this happening. Those black people who

445
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: weren't even in the fucking United States, fucking United States,

446
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: were like, come in for baseball and apple pie, and

447
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 2: by that I mean chattel slavery only. Okay, be clear,

448
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 2: it would be entirely fine if they I would love

449
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: them if they were off to go do that. They weren't.

450
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: The war was over. They were not planning some great

451
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: raid on the US. They were just trying to fucking

452
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: live free. To quote the author Matthew C. Clayven from

453
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: the best book about this that I'm aware of, the

454
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: Battle of negro Fort, quote, negro Fort's denizens were not

455
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: slave revolutionaries out to destroy the nefarious institution that sought

456
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 2: to keep them in bondage. Nor were they determined to

457
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 2: restore or recreate a traditional way of life recalled from

458
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: their youth or inherited from their African ancestors. Instead, like

459
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: other Maroons who struggled to survive in the Southern United

460
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 2: States or adjacent territories, their actions show that self determination,

461
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 2: self reliance, and self rule were their key objectives. And

462
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: so they were just trying to fucking live.

463
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was like, that's a long point of saying,

464
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: just living with dignity and independence.

465
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

466
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

467
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: That white guy Hambley, he was a chicken shit loser.

468
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: He ran off right away and he went to the US,

469
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 2: and he was like, please destroy that place. I'll help

470
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: you negotiate with indigenous leaders to attack it.

471
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, real flame out. Okay, real flame out.

472
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: Use it. Yeah, he will know he had millennial burnout.

473
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 2: Margaret, Right, totally. That's what I mean.

474
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: You have burnout at work?

475
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? What do you think that they had? Like, like,

476
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: I don't know the names of generations before the greatest generation.

477
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's like greatest old boomers, young boomers, which

478
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 2: is a millennial silent?

479
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: Is it silent before greatest?

480
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, is the greatest and then silent? But but

481
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: what the fuck did they call? Oh? I hate asking

482
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 2: questions like this because people are going to answer me,

483
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 2: and the when people answer me correctly, it's interesting. And

484
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 2: when people just a year from now listen to this

485
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 2: and then message me with no context, I'll have no idea.

486
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: They're like Margaret, Margaret, pep generation. It was the peep generation.

487
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 2: Yeah?

488
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: Cool, that is all that is. Like one of the

489
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: beautiful parts of parasociality is someone answering a question you

490
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: asked six years ago, yeah, and being presented as urgent

491
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: or I don't know, just like stuff like, hey, do

492
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: you remember when you said this in twenty eighteen. I'm like, guaranteed, No,

493
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 1: let's assume I was wrong. I don't know. I don't know.

494
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: I don't remember by the time you're hearing this, even

495
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: if you listen when it first came out, I'm not

496
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: going to remember. Make this sentence. I only remember about

497
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: the four Yeah, the weird side conversations not part of

498
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: my memory.

499
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: Nor should it be.

500
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, before we talk shit on the people who

501
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: are listen to our s eh okay.

502
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, it's just an interesting it's an

503
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: interesting and like usually funny side effect of the job.

504
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I do it to like I do it

505
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 2: to Jamie. I listened to something Jamie did, Like I

506
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: do it to Robert. I do it to ya. I

507
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 2: do it to cool Zone media. People like it. Yeah,

508
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 2: it is a human instinct to be like, I know

509
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: a thing about that. Like Robert Evans said that people

510
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: listen to the V Nation are old. I'm sure Robert

511
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: Evans doesn't remember saying that, But when I listen to

512
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 2: the V Nation in my basement when I'm working out,

513
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, no, I'm kind of old. This is

514
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: a really interesting asign. People are very glad we did it.

515
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,719
Speaker 1: I love Yeah, I love talking to five year old

516
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: MP three files. It's my passion.

517
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, so negro Fort Sadly, the whole point

518
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: of this episode is about how cool this place was.

519
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: The reason that we didn't get to it until now

520
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: is because we don't know that much about it. We

521
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: know a lot about what happened when there were white

522
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: people around, and we know very little when they weren't.

523
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: It was fucking cool. We know that Nichols is great,

524
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: but it's annoying that he gets all the screen time

525
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: and we know more about him. We know that Maroon

526
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: communities require security culture in order to stay alive, and

527
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: that's part of why we know so little about Maroon communities.

528
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: We also know that in this community there were Spanish speaking,

529
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: French speaking, English speaking, and people born in Africa all

530
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: living there side by side, and we know that's mostly

531
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 2: because their names. Like one person would be like Congo

532
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: Tom because he was born in Africa, and another person

533
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: will have like a French name or whatever, right, and

534
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: we actually know a lot about like because they're fucking

535
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: listed as property. We know a lot of their names,

536
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: and we know a lot of their job descriptions, you know,

537
00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: because people are like reporting their missing property. We also

538
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 2: know that they had eight cannons, and that's part of

539
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: why they managed to fucking stay missing property, which fucking rules. Yeah,

540
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: they were skilled artisans. They had eight cannons, a howitzer,

541
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: which is like halfway between a cannon and a mortar,

542
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: so it's like not quite as long distance whatever. And

543
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: they had hundreds of muskets. M Yeah, we thought howitzers

544
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: is a brand name of a gun, and then I

545
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 2: started reading.

546
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a xerox or a Zamboni situation. Interesting, Okay,

547
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: it's his own thing.

548
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: It might be Oh god, I've talked about a military Okay. Anyway,

549
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: we know that they started off with food stores, but

550
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: soon they were growing their own and they seemed to

551
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: live lives of plenty. They herded cattle in the swampy forest.

552
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 2: They grew corn and melons, and they cultivated land. They

553
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: set up like several they're described as plantations, but that

554
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: just means like how they plant things, not how it

555
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: was structured. They hunted turkey and alligator and deer, and

556
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: they fished. They traded extensively with their indigenous allies in

557
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: the surrounding area. New fugitives arrived every day, they kept growing,

558
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: and they were all considered bandits. And to be clear,

559
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: I think they did some piracy they like built boats

560
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: and shit, but mostly they were bandits because they had

561
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 2: stolen valuable property. Do you want to guess what the

562
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: valuable property they stole was. No, it's themselves. No, that's

563
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: what makes them bandits. They are bandits because they stole property.

564
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: I think their own human bodies.

565
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 2: Y y, yes, they stole from slave owners and for

566
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: once they are black lead. We know about three of

567
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: the commanders. There's Cyrus, there's Prince, who was actually a

568
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: lieutenant in the Colonial Marines. And the most famous of

569
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: the three, Garson, was a thirty six year old carpenter

570
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 2: who'd been a sergeant major. Why was he the most

571
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: famous because his name was French?

572
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was about to say, because he

573
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 1: had a cute little name. And that was the reason.

574
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: It is the reason, because this the single scariest thing

575
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: that has happened to white Southerners and human history was

576
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: the Haitian Revolution. Okay, and during the Haitian Revolution, which

577
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: is had only ended and ended in eighteen oh four,

578
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: and you know, so not that long before this, black

579
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: and slave people rose up and freed themselves. And the

580
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: guy who had led that to Saint Lutour, whose French

581
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: name I am not good at French, was a black

582
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: guy with a French name. So here's Garson. He's French

583
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: and black. The end is nigh. God Like, all over

584
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: the papers, all over the papers, they're like the Haitian

585
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: Revolutions coming. Which, don't get me wrong, there were many

586
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: people trying to make the Haitian Revolution come to North America.

587
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: For sure, But I'm just at every turn, just a

588
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: nation of fucking weird babies.

589
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: It's just absolutely and who will save this nation of

590
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 2: weird babies? But a hero, a hero will merge. Mm hmmm,

591
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: it's Andrew Jackson.

592
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: Again, I had a feeling it was Andrew Jackson. Yeah.

593
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: I mean, if anyone was well equipped to capture the

594
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: mind of violent babies, I suppose it was Andrew Jackson.

595
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: YEP. Which is an awkward place to stick an AD pivot,

596
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: but that's where it is. It's right here, right now.

597
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: Here's an AD pivot, and we're.

598
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: Back, and we pivoted right on back. It feels I

599
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: think that would perfectly Yeah.

600
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely good mind Tom. So basically Andrew Jackson was like,

601
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: dear mister the President, can I invade a sovereign country

602
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: to put down a ford in their territory? Because I

603
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: think that they make Basically, it was like the existence

604
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: of this place will incite people to flee? Right, Okay,

605
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: that was like their main argument, which is true, the

606
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: existence of that place incited people to flee, which is good.

607
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: Just not he presents it as bad because he's a

608
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: backwards man who walks backwards and talks whatever.

609
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: It's opposite day for him every day exactly.

610
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the opposite moratl guy. Yeah. And so he writes,

611
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: dear mister president, can I invade the sovereign country to

612
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 2: put down a fort in their territory? And the President's like, oh,

613
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: don't know when he's like thinking about it, and then

614
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson's like, you know what, I'm not waiting for

615
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 2: a response. I don't care. Wow, And just in classic

616
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: white supremacist for him, he's like, fuck the law, I

617
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 2: do things my way.

618
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, he's he's a classic example of uh asked,

619
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: you know, apologizing instead of asking for permission.

620
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And he also did the same thing to

621
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: the Spanish, he wrote and was like, if you all

622
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: don't take down that place, I will. But before the

623
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: Spanish have a chance to think about it, America is

624
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: already on its way to illegally cross into Spain and

625
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: fucker thinks up it's time to go burn indigenous villages,

626
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: including our recent allies, blow up the fort all in

627
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: someone else's country. It is entirely illegal, even by US standards.

628
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: That has never stopped anyone with power, let alone Andrew Jackson.

629
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: But Andrew Jackson didn't lead it himself. He just illegally

630
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: authorized his subordinate general Gains to do it for him

631
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: because Jackson wanted to be president and so he wanted

632
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 2: to do some plausible deniability shit where what he said

633
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 2: was go take care of it however you think is best.

634
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: But we we have his correspondence where he's openly like

635
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: and by that I mean like he'll everyone and blow

636
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: shit up and get back all this enslaved people and shit,

637
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 2: I don't care go through violence.

638
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: I feel like that there is just like a kind

639
00:35:54,680 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: of commonly held like presidents were not caught saying openly inflammatory,

640
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: violent shit before Watergate, And you're like, no, they've been doing.

641
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 2: It Yeah, he is absolutely going to end up president

642
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: at the end of this story.

643
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And there's the paper trail. Collectively everyone decided

644
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: didn't matter.

645
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, that's for historians.

646
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

647
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: So Gaines's plan was simple. He was going to hire

648
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: the local indigenous people to do all the fighting and

649
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: dying by promising them fifty dollars ahead for recaptured slaves,

650
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 2: which is about four times the going rate, and also

651
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: that they could loot the place of anything but cannons,

652
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: and they could also keep any people who for whom

653
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 2: owners couldn't be found. They would be supported by some

654
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: US gunboats and at least the book Battle of negro

655
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: Fort represents it as the first ever large scale slave

656
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: hunting expedition by the US. The first battle of it

657
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: went really badly for the US, which is fun.

658
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

659
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: A small boat of white soldiers like went up the

660
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 2: river looking for fresh water, and they were ambushed by

661
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: twenty black and twenty indigenous fighters, each under their own commander.

662
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: Garsan was leading the black forces and an unknown unnamed

663
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: chief to let the indigenous fighters, and they killed some

664
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,879
Speaker 2: of the white people and they drove the rest off

665
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: somewhere along the way. Aware of the coming attack. Hundreds

666
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: of maroons and fugitives slipped out of the fort, while

667
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: a few hundreds stayed behind to defend it. The fugitives

668
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: took refuge in various indigenous communities, especially among the Seminole.

669
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 2: We'll talk a little bit more about soon. The fort

670
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: was besieged indigenous warriors of the I mean it's literally

671
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: Musgogi fighters on both sides of this. So it's just

672
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: like the indigenous warriors in the woods were shooting at

673
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: the fort while the white people hid in boats behind

674
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: the bluff. Their stated plan was to stay out of

675
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: it so that no white people got hurt. And this

676
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: last to six days, this siege, and there were sorties

677
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: fought between the two forces that forced the soldiers of

678
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: negro Fort back behind their walls. And about half of

679
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: the soldiers in negro Fort are black and the other

680
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: half are Indigenous. They flew the union jack and above

681
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: it they flew a solid red flag, which was a

682
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: flag that meant they would offer no quarter and not

683
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: accept any quarter. They were all going to fight to

684
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 2: the death rather than go back into trains. Once again,

685
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 2: very metal.

686
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: A very yeah, nothing if not consistently metal.

687
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. The battle ended quickly. I spent the episode talking

688
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: about metaphorical powder kegs, but this one's not metaphorical. At

689
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 2: the center of the fort was this massive stone edifice

690
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: named the Citadel that stored all the powder for all

691
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: those cannons and muskets. One of the besieging gunboats was

692
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: doing something called hot shot, where they would put the

693
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 2: cannonballs in like a furnace, like a makeshift furnace that

694
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: they built on the boat before shooting them out of

695
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: the cannons. One cannon ball found its way into the citadel.

696
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: The resulting explosion was heard for miles in every direction,

697
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: and almost every defender died in the blast, About two

698
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty people died and about fifty people survived,

699
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: most of whom later succumbed to their wounds. Okay Garson

700
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 2: and an unnamed Choctaw war chief survived the blast. They

701
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: were captured. They immediately and proudly took credit for killing

702
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:43,280
Speaker 2: the American soldiers, and they were scalped and shot. Almost

703
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: none of the Maroons were returned to slavery. Almost every

704
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: single one of them died free, which was their plan. Wow,

705
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: and like, I feel like that doesn't like it gets

706
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 2: talked about like this great loss, and it was right,

707
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: like they didn't win, but they were really clear about

708
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: their intentions and they also provided enough time for way

709
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: more people who stayed to get out and get away.

710
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: You know.

711
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and I think that there should and

712
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 4: often is has to be some area for well, what

713
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 4: does winning versus.

714
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: Losing look like in a situation like this? And I

715
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: think that yeah, like characterizing it as a total loss

716
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: would would not be true because you know, dilied free.

717
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the end, like I think maybe two people

718
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: were returned to slavery successfully. During all of this, the

719
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: refugees from negro Fort went deeper into the wilderness and

720
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: they formed two communities. There was a black one called

721
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: Nero's Town, which had a leader named Nero, and an

722
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 2: indigenous one called bow Leg's Town, which had a leader

723
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 2: named bow Leg.

724
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: Okay, I was waiting for a twist.

725
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no twist. More fugitives began to join them.

726
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 2: So the Maroon community continues and the two communities, they're

727
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: like military societies and including at like negro Fort was

728
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 2: like a military institution. It considered itself British military unit

729
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: and so like it was like it gets presented as

730
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: a like military dictatorship or whatever. I'm like, yeah, it was.

731
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: It was a military society, you know that it was

732
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 2: around in the middle of basically an active war. I'm

733
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 2: not fucking coming at them for their authoritarianism, you know.

734
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

735
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 2: And Nero's Town in bow Leg's Town are presented in

736
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: very similar ways where they were still A lot of

737
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: them are still wearing uniforms. A lot of them are like, no,

738
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 2: this is just where we're continuing the fight. Interesting, okay.

739
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: And Nero's Town, Nero was a black man who had

740
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: himself run away from slavery twenty plus years early to

741
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: live with the seminole before showing up to negro Fort.

742
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: And in Nero's town, they would dance the Red Stick dance,

743
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: which was away like part of the culture of the

744
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: Red Sticks, so they consider themselves part of the Red Sticks.

745
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,280
Speaker 2: Shortly after the destruction of negro Fort, hundreds of Seminal

746
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: warriors and Red Sticks captured that asshole Hambly, you know,

747
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 2: the like the dude who had fucking been left in charge.

748
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 1: Wow, they found the.

749
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 2: Flop, which is like the most movie part of it, right,

750
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: he'd be like the Disney villain who like, you know,

751
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: runs away and like gets but yeah he.

752
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: Gets I'm so glad he got gotten. That's thrilling.

753
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: And then so seminal warriors capture him, transport him and

754
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: some other folks who were responsible for the destruction one

755
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty miles to Nero's town, and there were

756
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: sentenced to torture by a tribunal, with the implication being

757
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 2: tortured at death, but Nero intervened for some unknown reason

758
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 2: and had them transported and turnover to Spanish authorities. I'd

759
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 2: be so I'd be so pissed if I was one

760
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: of the people who had just transported this guy one

761
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty miles, you know.

762
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the sweet promise. Yeah yeah, not to be like,

763
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 1: actually we've decided to go to a different direction. Fuck you,

764
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: yeah we got this far.

765
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

766
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: Well I still think that's I mean, that is yeah,

767
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: that is a movie style return. I thought I thought

768
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: that he he got off Scott free.

769
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: Yeah no, and did not get off Scott free.

770
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: Excellent, great news.

771
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: And then in the US, basically weird annoying political machinations

772
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: of cover up started immediately because what they had done

773
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: was flagrantly illegal, right. The other thing that started right

774
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: away was the hunt for all the fugitives who'd escaped,

775
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: which was basically another illegal intrusion into Spanish Florida by

776
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: Andrew jack this time him personally, and they went around

777
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: in massacred places. They massacred Nero's town at least I

778
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,959
Speaker 2: don't know about bow Legstown. Jackson personally enslaved a black

779
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: fighter who still wore his red coat.

780
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: Jesus, an inexhaustibly evil person.

781
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: I know, just fucking terminator style, like more than four

782
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 2: Even after this, more than four hundred and thirty negro

783
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: Fort refugees continued to live in Florida free, mostly with

784
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: the Seminoles. The Seminoles didn't take kindly all this massacring happening,

785
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: and you get the first Seminole War, which is a

786
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: story for another week, but the shortish versions of it. Eventually,

787
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: the Seminole War led Spain to be like, fine, fuck it,

788
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: take Florida. We kind of hate it anyhow, and the

789
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 2: US got one of its most cursed states. The Seminoles

790
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 2: went so hard that there's more than one Seminole War

791
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: in which negro Fort veterans fought and got to see

792
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: some revenge on the empire that enslaved them. Like literally

793
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: the fifteen twenty year later wore some of the same

794
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 2: veterans were like, yeah, we're gonna go fuck up some

795
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 2: fucking like colonial Americans.

796
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: Absolutely mm hmm, God, I would love to hear a

797
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: cool people on the Seminal Wars.

798
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: That is, it's absolutely in the plans. I've been Yeah,

799
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: I've like done some of the research into it, and

800
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: it's going to get into some messy and interesting shit

801
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: and some like yeah, wild escapades. In eighteen twenty nine,

802
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 2: famed racist crusader Andrew Jackson became the seventeenth President of

803
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 2: the United States and the first Democratic president back when

804
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: Democrat meant the pro slavery guys. He signed the Indian

805
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 2: Removal Act and was just like one of the worst

806
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: people ever born. The Seminal Wars were Indian Wars, but

807
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 2: they were also wars over slavery. The North was like,

808
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 2: what the fuck are we doing? And the abolitionist movement

809
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 2: adopted Negro Ford as a symbol and the US attack

810
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 2: on it as evident of the US being what't referred

811
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 2: They started referring to the US accurately enough as a

812
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: slaveocracy like ruled by slavers, and their evidence was the

813
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 2: US keeps doing shit for slavers. That has nothing to

814
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 2: do with our economic interest, nothing to do with our

815
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: military interests. It's just for slavery, right. Negro Fort was

816
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 2: on John Brown's tongue when he declared the need for

817
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 2: a violent liberation of enslaved people and wrote a long

818
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 2: piece about it three months after he wrote that he

819
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 2: led his assault on Harper's Ferry. That, as we've talked

820
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: about before, was at least a crucial domino, if not

821
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: the spark itself that started the Civil War and ended

822
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: legal chattel slavery in the United States. So here's to

823
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 2: Garson and the hundreds of other unnamed indigenous and Black

824
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: people who lived free, died free, and helped spark one

825
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: of the greatest movements for human liberty and history against

826
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 2: one of the most vile empires that has ever existed

827
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 2: on this earth.

828
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: That is so I'm I mean, it stands straight, but

829
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: it's it's really cool to hear that that negro Fort

830
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: became such a huge inspiration for the movement moving forward

831
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: and also makes it, i mean, all the more frustrating

832
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: that it is not taught, oh yeah, to anyone. But

833
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,919
Speaker 1: I feel like any any armed resistance is especially by

834
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: indigenous or black people of the US, is just not not.

835
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: We don't talk.

836
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 2: About it, absolutely not, and especially yeah, I don't like

837
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 2: telling stories where the British are the good guys, right like,

838
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 2: and so I think that's even part of it too.

839
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: I mean it's mostly this. We do talk about violent resistance,

840
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 2: especially any violent resistance that could be justified. You know,

841
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: we're always like, h sure, the evil, savage people being whatever,

842
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 2: you know, but right, yeah, no, it was a completely

843
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: justified thing that even in the and then the other

844
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 2: thing is that people are like, oh, we're so smart now,

845
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: and in the nineteenth century they're all idiots, and I'm like, no,

846
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 2: in the eighteen thirties and forties, people were like, wait,

847
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 2: what we did? What are you fucking kidding me?

848
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: Well, then, and then the inevitability of of everyone involved

849
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 1: acting so heroically and genuinely having a net win not

850
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: only in a number of people living and dying free,

851
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 1: but in inspiring them inspiring further action, and contrasting that

852
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: with and Andrew Jackson becomes president anyways, and I know,

853
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: you know, never sees a consequence in his entire fucking

854
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: life and just accruse more and more and more power.

855
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's funny too, Like if you read about

856
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson's legacy, it's like, Andrew Jackson was incredibly popular,

857
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: and then it's like, by the second half of the

858
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: twentieth century, some people were starting to think he was

859
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 2: not a good person.

860
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 3: You know that two hundred years Yeah, Like, but it

861
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 3: also but at the same time, it's like people are like, oh,

862
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: product of their time, and it's like, one, Andrew Jackson

863
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,760
Speaker 3: was worse than everyone, and everyone knew it he was.

864
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 1: He was the worst guy.

865
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: Then yeah, like he was more racist than the racist

866
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 2: founding fathers, you know. And like also everyone at the

867
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 2: time was like fuck that. Not everyone, most people liked him,

868
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: but a ton of people were like fuck this guy.

869
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 2: Well again, Also, I hate when we're like, oh, all

870
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 2: white all people in the nineteenth century were racist, and

871
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 2: you're like, do you mean all white people? Like right, anyway,

872
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: that's the story.

873
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: That's this, that's the story. Wow, thank you so much

874
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,439
Speaker 1: for uh for telling me. I truly knew, I mean,

875
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: and I knew a little bit about this about the

876
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: seminole Wars, but I did not know, uh what preceded it. Yeah, God,

877
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. I hope that I really, I

878
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: mean not that I have, you know, much hope in

879
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: this way, but I hope that that this is like

880
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: talked about more, really is starting and still could and

881
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: should be inspiring. Now.

882
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Well what else should be talked about now

883
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 2: is your plugs?

884
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: Yay, yay, Okay, you can. I just began producing a

885
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: relaunch of the wonderful show We the Unhoused, hosted by

886
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 1: Theo Henderson on iHeart Radio. It is a show about

887
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:38,280
Speaker 1: the unhoused experience from an unhoused lens. We have episodes

888
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: that release every other Tuesday, and we just relaunched, So

889
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: get in on the ground floor of the show. And

890
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: there's also a great backlog. And yeah, it's holiday times.

891
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: You should get my book Raw Dog. It's about hot

892
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: dogs and also about the evils of capitalism. So if

893
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: you're a fan of this show and not fan of

894
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: hot dogs, there's still something for you in it.

895
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: I secretly love all of the reviews of people who

896
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 2: got really upset when they thought it was just gonna

897
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 2: be about hot dogs but didn't realize that the manufacture

898
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: of a commodity ties in the economic system that creates

899
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,240
Speaker 2: it and might be critical of that economic system.

900
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: Or that I would want to even mention manufacturing. They're like,

901
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: what the heck this was supposed to be about the

902
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 1: one my dad makes?

903
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

904
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 2: Why is it just about mustard?

905
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, although I'm sure that if I had had

906
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: more real estate page wise, we could have we could

907
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: have found a mustard bastard easily.

908
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I'm just imagining a sort of a cartoon,

909
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 2: not a cartoon character, like a mascot, a villain with

910
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 2: a in a mustard suit.

911
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: I don't know why, a torly mustache peeking out of

912
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 1: a mustard suit.

913
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I'm like, I'm gonna go eat dumplanes and

914
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, I want if I can put mustard on them.

915
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna stick with soy sauce. But okay,

916
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 2: I'm clearly distracted by the fact that I'm hungry.

917
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:10,320
Speaker 1: Uh.

918
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 2: You can follow me on Instagram. My Instagram is at

919
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: Margaret Kiljoy. You can follow me on substack. My substack

920
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: is you Google Margaret Kiljoy substack. I don't know anyone

921
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 2: who actually types in the url in that particular situation.

922
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 2: I post new essays every week. Half of them are public,

923
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 2: half of them are private. If you want to know

924
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 2: more about my hikes with my dog, then you have

925
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 2: to be a paid subscriber. If you want to know

926
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: more about the stuff. That's actually the kind of thing

927
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: I want to say to the broader world. You don't

928
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 2: have to be a paid subscriber. It's free. That's the

929
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 2: point of it. It's like the opposite of freemium like.

930
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: And also you can listen to other cool Zone Media podcasts.

931
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 2: You can listen to Hood Politics with prop which is

932
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 2: amazing and has been what I listened to while cooking recently.

933
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: And also Burning track. I would never burn trash. I

934
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: live in the country, but I would never even burn cardboard.

935
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that. That's wrong. It's the end of

936
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: the episode. Bye everyone. Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff

937
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 2: is a production of cool Zone Media.

938
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

939
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

940
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.