WEBVTT - Part Two: Excited Delirium: How Cops Invented A Disease 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:09.879 M hmm. What's justifying murder my corrupt doctors paid by 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:15.880 a mega corporation in order to increase profits for dangerous 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:21.720 electric murder guns used by violent people in order to 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:27.680 enforce white supremacy. Ship I lost the threat of that 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:36.320 introduction a little bit. Well, you're welcome down Behind the Bastards, 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.720 the podcast that you know what podcast? This is Nobody's 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.559 Nobody's dropping into episode two for the first time, not 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.199 having listened to any of our other episodes. You know 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:50.680 who I am? You know what we do? Motherfucker's Robert Evans, 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.200 motherfucker's this is Behind the Bastards? Motherfuck Are we not 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:56.480 doing that? And we're not not a little much? That's 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:58.480 a little bit much. So it's a little bit much. 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.279 Turn it down. Come on, this is Behind the Bastard. 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.720 There we go. He's Robert Evans. Now I am Robert Evans. 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.959 This is Behind the Bastards. And my guest for part 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.919 two of our episode on Excited Delirium is Ben Bowland. Ben. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.680 How are you doing today, Ben? Ben? Hey, thanks so much, 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.440 Thanks so much for having me back again. Guys, and 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.240 new things got sort of uh dicey at the end 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.600 for anybody who wasn't listening in to part one. I 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:28.600 think a lot of people might be tuning in just 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:34.520 for part two. But yeah, yeah, just just for part two. 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.679 They said, I don't want don't they read the description? Now, 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:42.720 I want to go in media rez baby, Yeah, Tabula Rossau, 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.000 coming in, uh, coming in hot Uh. Yeah. Thanks for 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.640 having me back. I know things got difficult off air. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.080 We had some creative differences read De Rito's which is fine. 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:55.640 But I'm I'm glad. I'm glad to be here. Yeah, 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.160 I'm I'm glad to have you back. I'm also glad 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.200 to continue to guessing whether or not to reintroduce De 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.920 Rito's plugs. To be honest, when when it comes to 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:07.880 the old running jokes that I'd like to reintroduce, I'm 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.800 really looking forward to getting in a studio again and 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:15.279 just damaging company property with a machette and various thrown objects. 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.119 That's that's the thing I'm most excited for. I've been 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.120 practicing and I'm gonna throw a bagel in your face. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:23.880 Really yeah, I mean it's one of those things. I've 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.840 come to the conclusion that, you know, the pandemic, it 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.639 gave us some necessary pause time you know, um, because 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:35.680 we've been doing that a little bit too much. People 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.200 were like a little bit too much throwing stuff. But 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:40.919 now the pandemic, I think people are ready for it again. 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.720 And that's that that that kind of makes it all worthwhile, 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:52.040 doesn't it. Yeah, I'm gonna everything, Bagel uh good stuff. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.360 Before we get started, though, I do wanna give give 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.560 you a shout out for the show and Robert you personally, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.600 because I was I was listening to some of the 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:06.960 old school behind the Bastards and and it hit me. 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:08.919 I was, I was, I was listening to this and 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.200 was one of the one of the machete moments, as 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.520 I call him, and I was thinking, damn, my machete 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.040 is really old. All right, Well, what's what's your brand? Oh? 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:18.440 Is it one where you don't know the brand? It's 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.360 just an old knife, old machete. Yeah, yeah, it's just 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.680 an old is it one of those big stamped steel deals? 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:26.359 Like kind of one of those like I think a 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:28.079 lot of them, may Mill Salvador. It's kind of a 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:30.760 thin stamped piece of metal with an edge on it. Yeah, 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.600 actually nailed it. Yeah. Those are great, those are I mean, 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.880 honestly for most I mean well, it's just because if 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:37.680 you actually go to the places in the world where 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.440 like every single person, like right down to the old ladies, 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.160 is walking around with a machete, like Guatemala, Like fucking 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.920 there's big parts of Guatemala where everyone you see is 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:47.760 just gonna have one on them because it's like a 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.520 life tool. I used to live there. Yeah you're right, 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.040 Oh I didn't know that. Yeah, I spent months there. 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:57.480 Where were you? I was in Ja lah yeah yeah 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.760 yeah yeah yeah yeah. I wasn't cool enough. It was 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.200 frauded lan um. But yeah, it's like whenever you see 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.080 people who who use machetes all the damn time, it 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.520 tends to be one of those stamped steel ones because 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.800 like they work, they do the job. They're fucking unkillable. 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.440 You can just run them on like one of those, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.760 you know, one of those foot powered sharpening wheels, um, 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.479 sharpen it up and it's they're not fancy, so like, 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.680 yeah that uses up steel, but you don't care. It's 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:28.680 not like a your teasonal knife. Um, they're great. I 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.359 love those. I love those machetes for all that I 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.800 enjoyed my artisanal machetes. If I'm just gonna go out 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:35.520 and fuck a knife up. I'm going to use one 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:42.159 of those, right, But speaking of fucking things up, Robert, 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.880 this is part two of a very fucked up situation. Yes, 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.599 yes it is, and we're we're talking about so when 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.320 we when we last left, uh, this very fun story 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.960 we were talking, I had introduced a guy named Dr 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.520 Jeffrey Hoe. Because we just talked about Charles Wetley and 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:03.159 Deborah Mash to Dr years Um, who receive a decent 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.000 amount of money we don't know exactly how much from 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.880 the Axon Corporation to Um explain why tasers didn't cause 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:15.040 taser related deaths. And now we are going to talk 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:19.520 about Dr Jeffrey Ho, who is like like the the 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.080 ultimate form of that kind of doctor. This guy is 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.320 such a shady motherfucker. If there's a single biggest bastard 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.720 of the episode, it's Dr Jeffrey Ho. So Ho worked 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.360 for ten years as an e er doctor in Hinnepin 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.240 County Medical Center in Minneapolis. The fact that we're talking 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.960 about Minneapolis and Key went on some of where this 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.960 is going now. From an early stage in his medical career, 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:48.000 Doctor Hoe got involved in shall we say extracurricular work. 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.760 He was hired by a nearby fire department to direct 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.839 medical services there, which is great. He consulted for a 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:58.159 private medical product company, which it is probably okay. He 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:00.520 enlisted in the National Guard, and he taught at the 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.440 University of Minnesota Medical School, and then he took a 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.839 side gig working with the Minneapolis Police swat team. This 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.200 dalliance with law enforcement was apparently so appealing to Dr 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.880 Ho that in two thousand three he returned to school 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.839 to get a two year degree in law enforcement, which 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.280 was a requirement to pass the police Licensing Board in Minnesota. 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.000 He became a part time police officer near Minneapolis. And 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:28.680 so far my feelings on policing aside based on the 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.600 standards of our society at its present moment, that's not 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:33.799 the worst thing in the world, right. Doctors can moonlight 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.320 like cops get to moonlight as security guards. I guess 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.720 why wouldn't it a doctor be able to moonlight as 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:43.479 a cop. Like theoretically, if you're a doctor and a cop, 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.560 when you horribly injure someone, maybe you can provide life 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:49.480 saving medical aid to them. More. I don't know, Like, 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:56.400 um oh, I'm pictoring like the the worst eighties movie. Right, yeah, 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:02.760 Dr Cop, doct doctor Cops. It would be funny to 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:06.159 just redo dirty Harry. But every time he shoots someone, 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:13.400 he then like he puts on a tourniquet. Once I 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:18.800 kill him, I go right in the doctor mode. Um. 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:21.480 So yeah, that's a little a little sketchy. But again 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.960 based on sort of the standards of our society so far, 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.240 I guess I don't think he's violating anything. I don't 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.240 think there's any rule that says a doctor can't be 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:32.119 a cop, so whatever, Um seems a little odd to me. Now. 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.400 While doctor Hoe was starting his journey into law enforcement, 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.560 Axon had a Nebraska doctor named Robert Stratbooker as their 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.640 chief medical advisor. In two thousand five, Dr Stratbucker signed 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.320 on as a consultant to help conduct a massive study 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.640 funded by the U S Department of Justice to look 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.440 at the safety of stun guns. The study was being 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.040 managed by a University of Wisconsin professor named John Webster, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.960 and it was supposed to be completely independent of Axon 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.800 or any other stunt gun manufact her. Right, this is 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:02.640 the d o J wants to do a big study 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.560 on whether or not stunned dens are safe, which is 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.040 a reasonable thing for the d o J to do, right, Like, 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:09.560 you're buying all these stun guns, you probably know how 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:14.160 often they kill people. Um So, Dr Stratbucker gets named 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.720 as one of the consultants on that study even though 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.880 he's in the employee of Accon, which is kind of shady. 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:21.880 And I'm gonna quote from an NBC right up now. 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.880 In March, both Webster and a Taser spokesman told the 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.880 AP the company had no ties to their research. In 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:33.080 his grant proposal, Webster proposed stratt Bucker received eighteen thousand 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.360 dollars in salary and travel expenses for his advice. Strat 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.280 Bucker's resume was included, but did not mention his work 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.240 for Taser, and Webster checked the box to deny any 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:48.240 conflict of interest. Now, Ben, I'm not a doctor, nor 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:51.160 am I. Well, I'm a kind of scientist. You can 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:55.200 see I I actually am a reverend doctor, so I 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.520 am the perfect person. And I've experimented with different kinds 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.800 of dangerous drugs on my friends and families, so you know, 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.720 I I am a good person to say this. I 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.800 would argue that if you are conducting a d J 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.760 study on whether or not tasers are safe and you're 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:16.839 paid by Taser, that is a conflict of interest. Yeah, well, 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.800 well it's a it's a perfect alignment of interest for 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:25.319 the people who are selling out human beings for some 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:30.480 extra cash. That's that's jolly good for them as as ah, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:36.040 it's it's not well written, that's the part. Like, if 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.800 you were writing this to be as insidious and evil 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:43.440 as it is, you would come up with maybe better motivations. 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:46.560 And it's one of those things. I don't know how 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.200 much Stratbucker is getting paid by ACTS. It has to 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.760 be more than eighteen grand, because like for a doctor, 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.240 for someone in that kind of income bracket, and I'm 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.480 in I'm going to guess a similar income bat bracket 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.600 to strat Bucker. Eighteen grand doesn't chump change, right, you'd 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.360 miss it if it came out of your bank account. 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:03.959 But it's not enough to sell your soul for, right. 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.200 He's got to be getting a lot of money from 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:08.800 ACTS on on this, because eighteen grand is not enough 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:11.760 to sell your soul out um, if you're in that 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.800 kind of income bracket, right, Because he's not fucking starving 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.200 on the street. He's a very prominent doctor and professor. Um, 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.440 he's got money like that, there's got to be And 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:23.360 that's one of the like a lot of times when 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.520 they talk about how much these different doctors are getting paid, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.440 it's like ten or twenty grand, and you know, like, no, 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.600 there's more fucking cash coming to you than that, Like 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.760 I don't I can't prove that. I don't know because 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:36.960 these are private payments, right, he's not. It's not a 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.640 government employee. But you have to be getting more money 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.520 than that. Eighteen grands not enough, you know, not. It 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.640 comes through different ways. Yeah, that's how it works. It 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.920 will come through a different direction. Uh. There there are 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.280 a lot of things that are easily easily lost unfortunately 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.480 when it comes to those kind of payments. Uh. And 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:01.040 then also we have to consider as messy and and 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.959 depressing shitty as it is to point out there are 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.840 people at that income level who are driven to a 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:12.120 great degree by a self delusion and ideology, you know 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.880 what I mean. So yeah, they're just down to clown. 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:21.160 They're down to fucking clown. Yeah. Uh so. Um. In 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.600 two thousand, in May of two thousand five, documents were 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.720 uncovered that showed strat Bucker had received both cash and 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.120 stock options from as On, and again, I don't have 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.120 an exact number there, but you have to assume it's 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.080 a lot, especially the stock options, which gives him a 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.880 further invested interest in the company's success, right, because how 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.240 much those options are worth are valued on how much 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:42.160 acts On is worth, which has directly related to whether 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:44.719 or not the Justice Department decides tasers are safe enough 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.800 for cops to use. You know, now, the Justice Department 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.560 very shadily claimed that they've known about Stratbucker's affiliation with 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.640 ax On the whole time, and they didn't consider it 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.600 a big deal because obviously you need a taser expert 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.720 on a study to determine whether or not tasers are 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.640 deadly or than advertised. Dr Webster's response to the reveal 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.120 of his relationship with Axon seems to have put the 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.360 lie to this. He told the AP quote, in view 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.520 of this potential conflict of interest, I can make the 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.880 statement that I have not received advice or paid Stratbucker, 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.120 and I will not use him in the future. So 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.559 Webster pulled back didn't pay Stratbucker the eighteen grand cut 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.400 him from the study um and this kind of like 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:27.440 spoils Dr Stratbucker, right, because now he can't be a 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.439 part of these studies that they are going to continue 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:31.800 to be done on the taser because journalists revealed the 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.720 fact that he has a conflict of interest. Now, for Axon, 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.200 this meant that they needed to shop around for a 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.040 new scientist to tweak research in order to make their 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.800 products seem safe. Tasers had gone viral among law enforcement 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.040 agencies and a ton of folks wound up dying or 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.160 being horribly injured by cops who were using electrocution guns. 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.000 Axons lawyers were now fielding dozens of lawsuits and they 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.200 needed a way to assure investors that they were going 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.760 to get past this and salvage their image. Now, thanks 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.160 to Reuters, we have access to a packet for investors 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.920 that acts On handed out where they proposed a solution 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.560 to their bad pr and lawsuit problem. This solution was 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.000 to employ a group of quote world class medical professionals 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.319 to defend the brand. Now, the doctors we've talked about, 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.800 we're all brought on for that reason. And I want 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.120 to read you a chunk from this investor document because 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.280 it really is one of the most sociopathic things I've 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.839 ever come across. So this is the Ason Corporation talking 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:30.520 to investors. As a result of various litigation inquiries and 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.400 proposed legislation mentioned above, we had to incur significant general 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.560 and administrative expenditures in two thousand five, an investment in 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:41.199 protecting our brand, equity and educating the various public interests 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:46.000 in our technology. In particular, we incurred substantial incremental legal, lobbying, 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.440 public relations, and related traveling costs, which ultimately had an 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.520 adverse impact on our overall profitability in two thousand five. However, 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.760 we believe these investments were well worth the cost. In 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.640 many cases, what began as adverse circumstances for us yielded 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:04.000 opportunities to educate high level public leaders in the faith 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.640 in the value of our products. Those adverse circumstances were 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.120 tasers killing people and then being like, well, but then 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:13.840 we got to fight it in court proved that it 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.520 wasn't the taser, So these adverage it really was a 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:22.760 boon to us that we killed these people. It's off 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:28.000 the hook. Yeah, not cool, We're good, but totally expected. 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:32.920 I guess I'm baffled at the last, like, how much 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.200 of that is an act and how much of that is, 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:39.280 in your opinion, as you said, like a sociopathic lack 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:44.280 of awareness or lack of caring about that very apparent 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:50.680 lack of carry Like do they know they have to 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.800 because they're they're the ones. We'll we'll talk about this later, 0:14:54.880 --> 0:15:00.360 but they are actively fighting to force medical profess chals 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:05.280 not to diagnose UM tasteer related deaths? Is taste related deaths? 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.040 Like that's a thing they go to do. They hire 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:09.920 these people to tweak research and stuff. Now, I'm sure 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.320 there's a lot of employees that light to themselves about 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.480 what they're doing. But we have some real problems. I mean, 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.760 the overall problem is just the fact that there's a 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.680 certain amount of these people in any society. And that's 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:27.120 why you should dissolve UM systems, that systems that put 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.680 power in people's hands wherever possible, because you can't get 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:32.680 rid of these people. They're always going to exist, but 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.400 you can get rid of power UM. And this is 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.240 a perfect example. Axon has a great deal of power 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.520 and they use it to hide the fact that they 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:49.280 sell electrocution machines. Well said, at all points, I I 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.160 I agree. I wish it wasn't true, but that might 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:57.240 be the most viable, if ambitious solution to remove the power. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:02.240 If you cannot in a feasible way remove the tendency. Yeah, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.120 I don't think, and I don't think you can remove 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:06.400 the tendency. There will always be I don't know. This 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:08.560 is getting a little off topic, but what one of 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.280 my favorite books, Tried by Sebastian Younger, does talk a bit, 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.600 and there's other books that talk about like some of 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.640 these people who don't have we would say a conscience, right, 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:20.720 there's uses for these people Historically, you know, if you're 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.120 part of a hunter gatherer tribe and you have a 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.040 real fucking bad winter and some hard decisions need to 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.360 be made about who's going to be left behind, who's 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.760 going to get a limited supply of food. A lot 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:35.840 of people can't make those calls, and sociopaths can um. 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.880 But then you wind up in that that is, in 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.480 a situation where you have a small number of people 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:48.200 and while like you, you decide like they, they are 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.080 as affected by those decisions as everyone else because it's 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:53.240 all part of a small group that's trying to survive. 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.240 In adverse conditions. Um. Where it becomes maladaptive on a 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.800 societal level is when you have individuals like that who 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.920 will never face the consequences of their decisions and who 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.560 are not impacted by them, and they're just hurting other 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:12.080 people because our society allows them to be completely divorced 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.879 from the consequences of their actions because they have money 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:19.439 in a position of influence. UM. That's that's when it 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.800 really becomes a problem. These these people who have tendencies 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:27.560 that continue to persist in humanity for a reason, um, 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:32.119 because they provide some benefits to society, UM, become fundamentally 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.240 toxic to society because they're completely divorced from the consequences 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.040 of their actions. You know, when a hunter gatherer tribes, 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.320 someone like that, if they go too far or get 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:42.399 too much power, the rest of the tribe will just 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.360 murder them. Like that happens a lot in These people 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.760 like that doesn't happen here because they're the CEO of 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.879 acx on, you know, and they have bodyguards and a 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.800 whole systems set up to protect them. UM. It's the 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:58.560 same story with you know, these these pharmacyeos who have 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.000 jacked at the price of insulin right, it's it's the 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:06.840 same story with every American president pretty much. I mean, 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.040 well said. And then also, I don't think I don't 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:12.800 think this is a diversion at all, because you're you're 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:14.800 bringing it back around. And the only point I would 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:20.960 add is, um, when we talk about the evolutionary necessity 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:25.240 of some of those uh cognitive like some of that 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.760 cognitive hardware or design, but we have to realize is that, 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:30.560 you know, and I think this is what you're getting at, 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:36.080 Robert Um. The need, the need for that kind of 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:42.399 person in society is somewhat archaic, investigial, like there there 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:46.120 is potential to do something else. Humans are just very 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:52.160 bad at changing and general Yeah, yeah, yeah, we share 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:57.560 are But you know what we're not bad at? Then, oh, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:02.760 what's that? Producing products and services? And doesn't then make 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.600 it all worthwhile in the end, the products the services. 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.320 You know, sure, we're killing the planet and a lot 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:09.840 of the people on it and a lot of the 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.359 life on it, you know, boiling the oceans, all that stuff, 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.560 But by god, we have products and we have services, 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.560 and where would we be without those products and services? 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.920 Watching a lot more sunsets sleeping under the stars anyway, 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:33.520 here's smacks. We're back and we're talking about um um 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.280 doctor Hoe in his relationship to the Axon Corporation and 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.119 how it started. So we just talked about Robert strap 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.840 Bucker who gets exposed in two thousand five, and right 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.000 around that time, the axe On Corporation reached out to 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.440 a doctor at the Hinnepin County Medical Center to ask 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.400 if he wanted to be a consultant for them. Now, 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.560 this doctor, whoever he was, had too much on his 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:53.760 plate already, but he said, Hey, I know another doctor 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.800 who's a workaholic boot liquor. Here's his number. And that 0:19:56.960 --> 0:19:59.440 is how Dr Jeffrey Ho wound up on the payroll 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.480 of Big Taser. From a write up and the Star Tribune, 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.240 which is a Minneapolis paper that has done I don't 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.760 know generally anything about this paper, they've done some incredible 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.080 work on this specific issue. Quote. In two thousand and five, 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.760 with funding from Axon Enterprise Incorporated and the Arizona based Taser, 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.240 the Arizona based taser manufacturer, Ho wrote an article for 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.359 Police Magazine disputing claims from human rights groups that It's 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.680 stun guns were killing people. It has never been scientifically 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.600 proven that a taser has directly caused an industody death, 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.720 Ho wrote. He offered another explanation to these sudden deaths, 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:39.600 excited delirium a uh uh now, and keep keep keep 0:20:39.600 --> 0:20:41.720 a pin in that it has never been scientifically proven 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:43.880 that a taser has directly caused an in custody death, 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.239 which we've heard before, right, you remember the other we 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.359 were talking about wet Lee. I think it was said 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.240 like they don't. We've never no evidence that these caused deaths. 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:55.440 Um keep that in mind because we'll be talking about 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.040 that a little bit later. We're still talking about how 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.680 for right now and over the next decade, Dr Hoe 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.520 joy into doctors Mash and Wetly in researching and popularizing 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:07.320 the term excited delirium. When interviewed by The Star Tribune, 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.720 doctor Hoe claimed that excited delirium is real, widespread, and deadly. 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.400 He claimed that his interest in researching it came from 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.240 a pure hearted desire to save lives and reduce the 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.359 threat of this totally real, deadly disease. He did not 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:24.240 initially acknowledge his financial relationship with Axon, but when Axon 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.800 was reached for comment, they cited doctor Hoe and there 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.880 are other pet doctors in order to claim quote, there 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:33.560 is no longer a true debate among knowledgeable medical professionals 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:38.440 on whether excited delirium syndrome is a valid diagnosis. So 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:42.399 though there's not a debate anymore, thank you Axon. Oh okay, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.600 as we've already cited a number of knowledgeable medical professionals 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:49.000 who will argue that it is very much not a 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.600 settled debate. Um. We we've we've cited a lot of 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:54.840 those people. But considering the number of shill docs who 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:56.800 keep making claims like this, I feel the need to 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.879 keep quote encounter arguments. Dr Homer Vinter is a former 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.800 is the former chief physician of Riker's Island Jail in 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:06.720 New York City. He now works for a nonprofit that 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:09.880 studies healthcare in the criminal justice system. He does not 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.000 believe that excited delirium is a valid diagnosis. Quote, this 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.720 is not a medical diagnosis. I think there's still an 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:21.760 open question as to the scientific legitimacy of excited delirium. Now, 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:24.960 there are emergency medical specialists who do not work for 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.320 acts ON and believe there is some validity to the 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.639 excited delirium diagnosis. They tend to argue that if you 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.240 don't acknowledge this constellation of symptoms is real, how can 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:36.919 you expect police officers to recognize when someone might be 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.560 at risk of dying in custody because of it, to 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.560