1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:09,879
Speaker 1: M hmm. What's justifying murder my corrupt doctors paid by

2
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 1: a mega corporation in order to increase profits for dangerous

3
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 1: electric murder guns used by violent people in order to

4
00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:27,680
Speaker 1: enforce white supremacy. Ship I lost the threat of that

5
00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 1: introduction a little bit. Well, you're welcome down Behind the Bastards,

6
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,720
Speaker 1: the podcast that you know what podcast? This is Nobody's

7
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,559
Speaker 1: Nobody's dropping into episode two for the first time, not

8
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,199
Speaker 1: having listened to any of our other episodes. You know

9
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 1: who I am? You know what we do? Motherfucker's Robert Evans,

10
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,200
Speaker 1: motherfucker's this is Behind the Bastards? Motherfuck Are we not

11
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: doing that? And we're not not a little much? That's

12
00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 1: a little bit much. So it's a little bit much.

13
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,279
Speaker 1: Turn it down. Come on, this is Behind the Bastard.

14
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,720
Speaker 1: There we go. He's Robert Evans. Now I am Robert Evans.

15
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,959
Speaker 1: This is Behind the Bastards. And my guest for part

16
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,919
Speaker 1: two of our episode on Excited Delirium is Ben Bowland. Ben.

17
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,680
Speaker 1: How are you doing today, Ben? Ben? Hey, thanks so much,

18
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,440
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me back again. Guys, and

19
00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,240
Speaker 1: new things got sort of uh dicey at the end

20
00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 1: for anybody who wasn't listening in to part one. I

21
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,600
Speaker 1: think a lot of people might be tuning in just

22
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:34,520
Speaker 1: for part two. But yeah, yeah, just just for part two.

23
00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,679
Speaker 1: They said, I don't want don't they read the description? Now,

24
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 1: I want to go in media rez baby, Yeah, Tabula Rossau,

25
00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 1: coming in, uh, coming in hot Uh. Yeah. Thanks for

26
00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 1: having me back. I know things got difficult off air.

27
00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 1: We had some creative differences read De Rito's which is fine.

28
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 1: But I'm I'm glad. I'm glad to be here. Yeah,

29
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,160
Speaker 1: I'm I'm glad to have you back. I'm also glad

30
00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,200
Speaker 1: to continue to guessing whether or not to reintroduce De

31
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,920
Speaker 1: Rito's plugs. To be honest, when when it comes to

32
00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 1: the old running jokes that I'd like to reintroduce, I'm

33
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,800
Speaker 1: really looking forward to getting in a studio again and

34
00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,279
Speaker 1: just damaging company property with a machette and various thrown objects.

35
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,119
Speaker 1: That's that's the thing I'm most excited for. I've been

36
00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,120
Speaker 1: practicing and I'm gonna throw a bagel in your face.

37
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 1: Really yeah, I mean it's one of those things. I've

38
00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,840
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that, you know, the pandemic, it

39
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 1: gave us some necessary pause time you know, um, because

40
00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:35,680
Speaker 1: we've been doing that a little bit too much. People

41
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: were like a little bit too much throwing stuff. But

42
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,919
Speaker 1: now the pandemic, I think people are ready for it again.

43
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 1: And that's that that that kind of makes it all worthwhile,

44
00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 1: doesn't it. Yeah, I'm gonna everything, Bagel uh good stuff.

45
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,360
Speaker 1: Before we get started, though, I do wanna give give

46
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 1: you a shout out for the show and Robert you personally,

47
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,600
Speaker 1: because I was I was listening to some of the

48
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:06,960
Speaker 1: old school behind the Bastards and and it hit me.

49
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,919
Speaker 1: I was, I was, I was listening to this and

50
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 1: was one of the one of the machete moments, as

51
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 1: I call him, and I was thinking, damn, my machete

52
00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,040
Speaker 1: is really old. All right, Well, what's what's your brand? Oh?

53
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,440
Speaker 1: Is it one where you don't know the brand? It's

54
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,360
Speaker 1: just an old knife, old machete. Yeah, yeah, it's just

55
00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 1: an old is it one of those big stamped steel deals?

56
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,359
Speaker 1: Like kind of one of those like I think a

57
00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,079
Speaker 1: lot of them, may Mill Salvador. It's kind of a

58
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,760
Speaker 1: thin stamped piece of metal with an edge on it. Yeah,

59
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,600
Speaker 1: actually nailed it. Yeah. Those are great, those are I mean,

60
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,880
Speaker 1: honestly for most I mean well, it's just because if

61
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 1: you actually go to the places in the world where

62
00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 1: like every single person, like right down to the old ladies,

63
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,160
Speaker 1: is walking around with a machete, like Guatemala, Like fucking

64
00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,920
Speaker 1: there's big parts of Guatemala where everyone you see is

65
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,760
Speaker 1: just gonna have one on them because it's like a

66
00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 1: life tool. I used to live there. Yeah you're right,

67
00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,040
Speaker 1: Oh I didn't know that. Yeah, I spent months there.

68
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 1: Where were you? I was in Ja lah yeah yeah

69
00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,760
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah yeah. I wasn't cool enough. It was

70
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 1: frauded lan um. But yeah, it's like whenever you see

71
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,080
Speaker 1: people who who use machetes all the damn time, it

72
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,520
Speaker 1: tends to be one of those stamped steel ones because

73
00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 1: like they work, they do the job. They're fucking unkillable.

74
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,440
Speaker 1: You can just run them on like one of those,

75
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 1: you know, one of those foot powered sharpening wheels, um,

76
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,479
Speaker 1: sharpen it up and it's they're not fancy, so like,

77
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:25,680
Speaker 1: yeah that uses up steel, but you don't care. It's

78
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,680
Speaker 1: not like a your teasonal knife. Um, they're great. I

79
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,359
Speaker 1: love those. I love those machetes for all that I

80
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,800
Speaker 1: enjoyed my artisanal machetes. If I'm just gonna go out

81
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: and fuck a knife up. I'm going to use one

82
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:42,159
Speaker 1: of those, right, But speaking of fucking things up, Robert,

83
00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,880
Speaker 1: this is part two of a very fucked up situation. Yes,

84
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,599
Speaker 1: yes it is, and we're we're talking about so when

85
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,320
Speaker 1: we when we last left, uh, this very fun story

86
00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,960
Speaker 1: we were talking, I had introduced a guy named Dr

87
00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,520
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Hoe. Because we just talked about Charles Wetley and

88
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,159
Speaker 1: Deborah Mash to Dr years Um, who receive a decent

89
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,000
Speaker 1: amount of money we don't know exactly how much from

90
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,880
Speaker 1: the Axon Corporation to Um explain why tasers didn't cause

91
00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:15,040
Speaker 1: taser related deaths. And now we are going to talk

92
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,520
Speaker 1: about Dr Jeffrey Ho, who is like like the the

93
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,080
Speaker 1: ultimate form of that kind of doctor. This guy is

94
00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,320
Speaker 1: such a shady motherfucker. If there's a single biggest bastard

95
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,720
Speaker 1: of the episode, it's Dr Jeffrey Ho. So Ho worked

96
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: for ten years as an e er doctor in Hinnepin

97
00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,240
Speaker 1: County Medical Center in Minneapolis. The fact that we're talking

98
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 1: about Minneapolis and Key went on some of where this

99
00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,960
Speaker 1: is going now. From an early stage in his medical career,

100
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 1: Doctor Hoe got involved in shall we say extracurricular work.

101
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,760
Speaker 1: He was hired by a nearby fire department to direct

102
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,839
Speaker 1: medical services there, which is great. He consulted for a

103
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,159
Speaker 1: private medical product company, which it is probably okay. He

104
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 1: enlisted in the National Guard, and he taught at the

105
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 1: University of Minnesota Medical School, and then he took a

106
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,839
Speaker 1: side gig working with the Minneapolis Police swat team. This

107
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 1: dalliance with law enforcement was apparently so appealing to Dr

108
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,880
Speaker 1: Ho that in two thousand three he returned to school

109
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,839
Speaker 1: to get a two year degree in law enforcement, which

110
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,280
Speaker 1: was a requirement to pass the police Licensing Board in Minnesota.

111
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 1: He became a part time police officer near Minneapolis. And

112
00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,680
Speaker 1: so far my feelings on policing aside based on the

113
00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,600
Speaker 1: standards of our society at its present moment, that's not

114
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,799
Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world, right. Doctors can moonlight

115
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 1: like cops get to moonlight as security guards. I guess

116
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,720
Speaker 1: why wouldn't it a doctor be able to moonlight as

117
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,479
Speaker 1: a cop. Like theoretically, if you're a doctor and a cop,

118
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,560
Speaker 1: when you horribly injure someone, maybe you can provide life

119
00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,480
Speaker 1: saving medical aid to them. More. I don't know, Like,

120
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:56,400
Speaker 1: um oh, I'm pictoring like the the worst eighties movie. Right, yeah,

121
00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:02,760
Speaker 1: Dr Cop, doct doctor Cops. It would be funny to

122
00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,159
Speaker 1: just redo dirty Harry. But every time he shoots someone,

123
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 1: he then like he puts on a tourniquet. Once I

124
00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:18,800
Speaker 1: kill him, I go right in the doctor mode. Um.

125
00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's a little a little sketchy. But again

126
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 1: based on sort of the standards of our society so far,

127
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,240
Speaker 1: I guess I don't think he's violating anything. I don't

128
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 1: think there's any rule that says a doctor can't be

129
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,119
Speaker 1: a cop, so whatever, Um seems a little odd to me. Now.

130
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 1: While doctor Hoe was starting his journey into law enforcement,

131
00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,560
Speaker 1: Axon had a Nebraska doctor named Robert Stratbooker as their

132
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,640
Speaker 1: chief medical advisor. In two thousand five, Dr Stratbucker signed

133
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 1: on as a consultant to help conduct a massive study

134
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 1: funded by the U S Department of Justice to look

135
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,440
Speaker 1: at the safety of stun guns. The study was being

136
00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: managed by a University of Wisconsin professor named John Webster,

137
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,960
Speaker 1: and it was supposed to be completely independent of Axon

138
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,800
Speaker 1: or any other stunt gun manufact her. Right, this is

139
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:02,640
Speaker 1: the d o J wants to do a big study

140
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,560
Speaker 1: on whether or not stunned dens are safe, which is

141
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,040
Speaker 1: a reasonable thing for the d o J to do, right, Like,

142
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,560
Speaker 1: you're buying all these stun guns, you probably know how

143
00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:14,160
Speaker 1: often they kill people. Um So, Dr Stratbucker gets named

144
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 1: as one of the consultants on that study even though

145
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,880
Speaker 1: he's in the employee of Accon, which is kind of shady.

146
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from an NBC right up now.

147
00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 1: In March, both Webster and a Taser spokesman told the

148
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 1: AP the company had no ties to their research. In

149
00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,080
Speaker 1: his grant proposal, Webster proposed stratt Bucker received eighteen thousand

150
00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 1: dollars in salary and travel expenses for his advice. Strat

151
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 1: Bucker's resume was included, but did not mention his work

152
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,240
Speaker 1: for Taser, and Webster checked the box to deny any

153
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 1: conflict of interest. Now, Ben, I'm not a doctor, nor

154
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,160
Speaker 1: am I. Well, I'm a kind of scientist. You can

155
00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,200
Speaker 1: see I I actually am a reverend doctor, so I

156
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 1: am the perfect person. And I've experimented with different kinds

157
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 1: of dangerous drugs on my friends and families, so you know,

158
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,720
Speaker 1: I I am a good person to say this. I

159
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 1: would argue that if you are conducting a d J

160
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,760
Speaker 1: study on whether or not tasers are safe and you're

161
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:16,839
Speaker 1: paid by Taser, that is a conflict of interest. Yeah, well,

162
00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 1: well it's a it's a perfect alignment of interest for

163
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,319
Speaker 1: the people who are selling out human beings for some

164
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 1: extra cash. That's that's jolly good for them as as ah,

165
00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 1: it's it's not well written, that's the part. Like, if

166
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,800
Speaker 1: you were writing this to be as insidious and evil

167
00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,440
Speaker 1: as it is, you would come up with maybe better motivations.

168
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,560
Speaker 1: And it's one of those things. I don't know how

169
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,200
Speaker 1: much Stratbucker is getting paid by ACTS. It has to

170
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 1: be more than eighteen grand, because like for a doctor,

171
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 1: for someone in that kind of income bracket, and I'm

172
00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 1: in I'm going to guess a similar income bat bracket

173
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,600
Speaker 1: to strat Bucker. Eighteen grand doesn't chump change, right, you'd

174
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,360
Speaker 1: miss it if it came out of your bank account.

175
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,959
Speaker 1: But it's not enough to sell your soul for, right.

176
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,200
Speaker 1: He's got to be getting a lot of money from

177
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 1: ACTS on on this, because eighteen grand is not enough

178
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,760
Speaker 1: to sell your soul out um, if you're in that

179
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,800
Speaker 1: kind of income bracket, right, Because he's not fucking starving

180
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,200
Speaker 1: on the street. He's a very prominent doctor and professor. Um,

181
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,440
Speaker 1: he's got money like that, there's got to be And

182
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 1: that's one of the like a lot of times when

183
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 1: they talk about how much these different doctors are getting paid,

184
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,440
Speaker 1: it's like ten or twenty grand, and you know, like, no,

185
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 1: there's more fucking cash coming to you than that, Like

186
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,760
Speaker 1: I don't I can't prove that. I don't know because

187
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,960
Speaker 1: these are private payments, right, he's not. It's not a

188
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 1: government employee. But you have to be getting more money

189
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,520
Speaker 1: than that. Eighteen grands not enough, you know, not. It

190
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,640
Speaker 1: comes through different ways. Yeah, that's how it works. It

191
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,920
Speaker 1: will come through a different direction. Uh. There there are

192
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 1: a lot of things that are easily easily lost unfortunately

193
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 1: when it comes to those kind of payments. Uh. And

194
00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 1: then also we have to consider as messy and and

195
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,959
Speaker 1: depressing shitty as it is to point out there are

196
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,840
Speaker 1: people at that income level who are driven to a

197
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:12,120
Speaker 1: great degree by a self delusion and ideology, you know

198
00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 1: what I mean. So yeah, they're just down to clown.

199
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: They're down to fucking clown. Yeah. Uh so. Um. In

200
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,600
Speaker 1: two thousand, in May of two thousand five, documents were

201
00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 1: uncovered that showed strat Bucker had received both cash and

202
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,120
Speaker 1: stock options from as On, and again, I don't have

203
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 1: an exact number there, but you have to assume it's

204
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,080
Speaker 1: a lot, especially the stock options, which gives him a

205
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 1: further invested interest in the company's success, right, because how

206
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,240
Speaker 1: much those options are worth are valued on how much

207
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,160
Speaker 1: acts On is worth, which has directly related to whether

208
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,719
Speaker 1: or not the Justice Department decides tasers are safe enough

209
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,800
Speaker 1: for cops to use. You know, now, the Justice Department

210
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,560
Speaker 1: very shadily claimed that they've known about Stratbucker's affiliation with

211
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,640
Speaker 1: ax On the whole time, and they didn't consider it

212
00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,600
Speaker 1: a big deal because obviously you need a taser expert

213
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 1: on a study to determine whether or not tasers are

214
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 1: deadly or than advertised. Dr Webster's response to the reveal

215
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 1: of his relationship with Axon seems to have put the

216
00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,360
Speaker 1: lie to this. He told the AP quote, in view

217
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 1: of this potential conflict of interest, I can make the

218
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 1: statement that I have not received advice or paid Stratbucker,

219
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,120
Speaker 1: and I will not use him in the future. So

220
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,559
Speaker 1: Webster pulled back didn't pay Stratbucker the eighteen grand cut

221
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,400
Speaker 1: him from the study um and this kind of like

222
00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 1: spoils Dr Stratbucker, right, because now he can't be a

223
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,439
Speaker 1: part of these studies that they are going to continue

224
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 1: to be done on the taser because journalists revealed the

225
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 1: fact that he has a conflict of interest. Now, for Axon,

226
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,200
Speaker 1: this meant that they needed to shop around for a

227
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,040
Speaker 1: new scientist to tweak research in order to make their

228
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 1: products seem safe. Tasers had gone viral among law enforcement

229
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,040
Speaker 1: agencies and a ton of folks wound up dying or

230
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,160
Speaker 1: being horribly injured by cops who were using electrocution guns.

231
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,000
Speaker 1: Axons lawyers were now fielding dozens of lawsuits and they

232
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: needed a way to assure investors that they were going

233
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,760
Speaker 1: to get past this and salvage their image. Now, thanks

234
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,160
Speaker 1: to Reuters, we have access to a packet for investors

235
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,920
Speaker 1: that acts On handed out where they proposed a solution

236
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 1: to their bad pr and lawsuit problem. This solution was

237
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 1: to employ a group of quote world class medical professionals

238
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,319
Speaker 1: to defend the brand. Now, the doctors we've talked about,

239
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,800
Speaker 1: we're all brought on for that reason. And I want

240
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 1: to read you a chunk from this investor document because

241
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,280
Speaker 1: it really is one of the most sociopathic things I've

242
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,839
Speaker 1: ever come across. So this is the Ason Corporation talking

243
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 1: to investors. As a result of various litigation inquiries and

244
00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 1: proposed legislation mentioned above, we had to incur significant general

245
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,560
Speaker 1: and administrative expenditures in two thousand five, an investment in

246
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,199
Speaker 1: protecting our brand, equity and educating the various public interests

247
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,000
Speaker 1: in our technology. In particular, we incurred substantial incremental legal, lobbying,

248
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,440
Speaker 1: public relations, and related traveling costs, which ultimately had an

249
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 1: adverse impact on our overall profitability in two thousand five. However,

250
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 1: we believe these investments were well worth the cost. In

251
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,640
Speaker 1: many cases, what began as adverse circumstances for us yielded

252
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,000
Speaker 1: opportunities to educate high level public leaders in the faith

253
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,640
Speaker 1: in the value of our products. Those adverse circumstances were

254
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 1: tasers killing people and then being like, well, but then

255
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,840
Speaker 1: we got to fight it in court proved that it

256
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 1: wasn't the taser, So these adverage it really was a

257
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:22,760
Speaker 1: boon to us that we killed these people. It's off

258
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:28,000
Speaker 1: the hook. Yeah, not cool, We're good, but totally expected.

259
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,920
Speaker 1: I guess I'm baffled at the last, like, how much

260
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 1: of that is an act and how much of that is,

261
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 1: in your opinion, as you said, like a sociopathic lack

262
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,280
Speaker 1: of awareness or lack of caring about that very apparent

263
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 1: lack of carry Like do they know they have to

264
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,800
Speaker 1: because they're they're the ones. We'll we'll talk about this later,

265
00:14:54,880 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 1: but they are actively fighting to force medical profess chals

266
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 1: not to diagnose UM tasteer related deaths? Is taste related deaths?

267
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 1: Like that's a thing they go to do. They hire

268
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,920
Speaker 1: these people to tweak research and stuff. Now, I'm sure

269
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of employees that light to themselves about

270
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 1: what they're doing. But we have some real problems. I mean,

271
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 1: the overall problem is just the fact that there's a

272
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,680
Speaker 1: certain amount of these people in any society. And that's

273
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 1: why you should dissolve UM systems, that systems that put

274
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,680
Speaker 1: power in people's hands wherever possible, because you can't get

275
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 1: rid of these people. They're always going to exist, but

276
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: you can get rid of power UM. And this is

277
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,240
Speaker 1: a perfect example. Axon has a great deal of power

278
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 1: and they use it to hide the fact that they

279
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 1: sell electrocution machines. Well said, at all points, I I

280
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 1: I agree. I wish it wasn't true, but that might

281
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,240
Speaker 1: be the most viable, if ambitious solution to remove the power.

282
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,240
Speaker 1: If you cannot in a feasible way remove the tendency. Yeah,

283
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 1: I don't think, and I don't think you can remove

284
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 1: the tendency. There will always be I don't know. This

285
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,560
Speaker 1: is getting a little off topic, but what one of

286
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,280
Speaker 1: my favorite books, Tried by Sebastian Younger, does talk a bit,

287
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,600
Speaker 1: and there's other books that talk about like some of

288
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,640
Speaker 1: these people who don't have we would say a conscience, right,

289
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 1: there's uses for these people Historically, you know, if you're

290
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 1: part of a hunter gatherer tribe and you have a

291
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:26,040
Speaker 1: real fucking bad winter and some hard decisions need to

292
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,360
Speaker 1: be made about who's going to be left behind, who's

293
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 1: going to get a limited supply of food. A lot

294
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,840
Speaker 1: of people can't make those calls, and sociopaths can um.

295
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 1: But then you wind up in that that is, in

296
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,480
Speaker 1: a situation where you have a small number of people

297
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,200
Speaker 1: and while like you, you decide like they, they are

298
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 1: as affected by those decisions as everyone else because it's

299
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 1: all part of a small group that's trying to survive.

300
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 1: In adverse conditions. Um. Where it becomes maladaptive on a

301
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 1: societal level is when you have individuals like that who

302
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,920
Speaker 1: will never face the consequences of their decisions and who

303
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 1: are not impacted by them, and they're just hurting other

304
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 1: people because our society allows them to be completely divorced

305
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,879
Speaker 1: from the consequences of their actions because they have money

306
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 1: in a position of influence. UM. That's that's when it

307
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 1: really becomes a problem. These these people who have tendencies

308
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,560
Speaker 1: that continue to persist in humanity for a reason, um,

309
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,119
Speaker 1: because they provide some benefits to society, UM, become fundamentally

310
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 1: toxic to society because they're completely divorced from the consequences

311
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 1: of their actions. You know, when a hunter gatherer tribes,

312
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 1: someone like that, if they go too far or get

313
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,399
Speaker 1: too much power, the rest of the tribe will just

314
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,360
Speaker 1: murder them. Like that happens a lot in These people

315
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,760
Speaker 1: like that doesn't happen here because they're the CEO of

316
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,879
Speaker 1: acx on, you know, and they have bodyguards and a

317
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,800
Speaker 1: whole systems set up to protect them. UM. It's the

318
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,560
Speaker 1: same story with you know, these these pharmacyeos who have

319
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 1: jacked at the price of insulin right, it's it's the

320
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,840
Speaker 1: same story with every American president pretty much. I mean,

321
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 1: well said. And then also, I don't think I don't

322
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 1: think this is a diversion at all, because you're you're

323
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 1: bringing it back around. And the only point I would

324
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:20,960
Speaker 1: add is, um, when we talk about the evolutionary necessity

325
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 1: of some of those uh cognitive like some of that

326
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,760
Speaker 1: cognitive hardware or design, but we have to realize is that,

327
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 1: you know, and I think this is what you're getting at,

328
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 1: Robert Um. The need, the need for that kind of

329
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 1: person in society is somewhat archaic, investigial, like there there

330
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,120
Speaker 1: is potential to do something else. Humans are just very

331
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:52,160
Speaker 1: bad at changing and general Yeah, yeah, yeah, we share

332
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 1: are But you know what we're not bad at? Then, oh,

333
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,760
Speaker 1: what's that? Producing products and services? And doesn't then make

334
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 1: it all worthwhile in the end, the products the services.

335
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 1: You know, sure, we're killing the planet and a lot

336
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: of the people on it and a lot of the

337
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,359
Speaker 1: life on it, you know, boiling the oceans, all that stuff,

338
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 1: But by god, we have products and we have services,

339
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: and where would we be without those products and services?

340
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 1: Watching a lot more sunsets sleeping under the stars anyway,

341
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: here's smacks. We're back and we're talking about um um

342
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 1: doctor Hoe in his relationship to the Axon Corporation and

343
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 1: how it started. So we just talked about Robert strap

344
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,840
Speaker 1: Bucker who gets exposed in two thousand five, and right

345
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 1: around that time, the axe On Corporation reached out to

346
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,440
Speaker 1: a doctor at the Hinnepin County Medical Center to ask

347
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,400
Speaker 1: if he wanted to be a consultant for them. Now,

348
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,560
Speaker 1: this doctor, whoever he was, had too much on his

349
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 1: plate already, but he said, Hey, I know another doctor

350
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 1: who's a workaholic boot liquor. Here's his number. And that

351
00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 1: is how Dr Jeffrey Ho wound up on the payroll

352
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,480
Speaker 1: of Big Taser. From a write up and the Star Tribune,

353
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: which is a Minneapolis paper that has done I don't

354
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 1: know generally anything about this paper, they've done some incredible

355
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: work on this specific issue. Quote. In two thousand and five,

356
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 1: with funding from Axon Enterprise Incorporated and the Arizona based Taser,

357
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 1: the Arizona based taser manufacturer, Ho wrote an article for

358
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,359
Speaker 1: Police Magazine disputing claims from human rights groups that It's

359
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,680
Speaker 1: stun guns were killing people. It has never been scientifically

360
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 1: proven that a taser has directly caused an industody death,

361
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 1: Ho wrote. He offered another explanation to these sudden deaths,

362
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 1: excited delirium a uh uh now, and keep keep keep

363
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,720
Speaker 1: a pin in that it has never been scientifically proven

364
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 1: that a taser has directly caused an in custody death,

365
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,239
Speaker 1: which we've heard before, right, you remember the other we

366
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 1: were talking about wet Lee. I think it was said

367
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 1: like they don't. We've never no evidence that these caused deaths.

368
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 1: Um keep that in mind because we'll be talking about

369
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: that a little bit later. We're still talking about how

370
00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,680
Speaker 1: for right now and over the next decade, Dr Hoe

371
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: joy into doctors Mash and Wetly in researching and popularizing

372
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,320
Speaker 1: the term excited delirium. When interviewed by The Star Tribune,

373
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: doctor Hoe claimed that excited delirium is real, widespread, and deadly.

374
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 1: He claimed that his interest in researching it came from

375
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: a pure hearted desire to save lives and reduce the

376
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 1: threat of this totally real, deadly disease. He did not

377
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 1: initially acknowledge his financial relationship with Axon, but when Axon

378
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: was reached for comment, they cited doctor Hoe and there

379
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 1: are other pet doctors in order to claim quote, there

380
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: is no longer a true debate among knowledgeable medical professionals

381
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 1: on whether excited delirium syndrome is a valid diagnosis. So

382
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: though there's not a debate anymore, thank you Axon. Oh okay,

383
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: as we've already cited a number of knowledgeable medical professionals

384
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 1: who will argue that it is very much not a

385
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: settled debate. Um. We we've we've cited a lot of

386
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: those people. But considering the number of shill docs who

387
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: keep making claims like this, I feel the need to

388
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 1: keep quote encounter arguments. Dr Homer Vinter is a former

389
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: is the former chief physician of Riker's Island Jail in

390
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: New York City. He now works for a nonprofit that

391
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 1: studies healthcare in the criminal justice system. He does not

392
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: believe that excited delirium is a valid diagnosis. Quote, this

393
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: is not a medical diagnosis. I think there's still an

394
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 1: open question as to the scientific legitimacy of excited delirium. Now,

395
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: there are emergency medical specialists who do not work for

396
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 1: acts ON and believe there is some validity to the

397
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,639
Speaker 1: excited delirium diagnosis. They tend to argue that if you

398
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: don't acknowledge this constellation of symptoms is real, how can

399
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 1: you expect police officers to recognize when someone might be

400
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 1: at risk of dying in custody because of it, to

401
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 1: which I might respond, the cop with the cop with

402
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 1: Derek Chauvin that day in Minneapolis recognized excited delirium and

403
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 1: George Floyd still died. It sure seems like it doesn't

404
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: help anyone stop deadly behavior. It just justifies it. Now.

405
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: One of the people who went to bat for Dr

406
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: Hoe in that article was Dr James Minor, Chief of

407
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: Medical Chief of Emergency Medicine at Hennepin County. Dr Miner

408
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: authored a taser research article with doctor Hoe. He does

409
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: not seem to work for Axon. I cannot find any

410
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: evidence that he is directly paid by Axon, but he's

411
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: still benefits financially from doctor hose relationship to the company.

412
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: Here's why quote Axon Enterprise retains ho is its contract

413
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: medical director, a job to which he dedicates thirty two

414
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: hours per month at hc MC. In exchange, Axon pays

415
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: the hospital about a hundred and forty thousand dollars per year.

416
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 1: Hose annual salary at Hennepin Healthcare is currently four hundred

417
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 1: and sixty thousand dollars. Hose position with Axon is not

418
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: disclosed on hc MC's website, so you see what's happening here.

419
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: As long as doctor Hoe is employed by Axon, Dr

420
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 1: Miner's hospital has a hundred and forty thousand less dollars

421
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 1: they need to find in their budget every year because

422
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: Axon pays that chunk of his salary. In two thousand six,

423
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: h CMC, the hospital they both at, lost forty nine

424
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: million dollars. In two thousands seventeen, they lost twenty nine

425
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: million dollars, So they are in in every penny counts

426
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: sort of situation. And Dr Minor could be argued to

427
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: benefit directly from doctor hose financial relationship with ax On

428
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 1: because that's less money he has to find in his

429
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 1: fucking budget and clearly his budget is tight, right. There

430
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: absolutely is an ongoing financial interest that this guy has

431
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: to even if he's not receiving money from Axon. Doctor

432
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: Hoe took ax On money for well over a decade,

433
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: which means the hospital would have gotten something like one

434
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: point four million dollars from the company. UH, and he

435
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: used his position during this time his position of prominence

436
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: within the hospital to defend both the ax On corporation

437
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: and cops who killed people. In two thousand seven, Ho

438
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: went to Las Vegas to defend a Nevada cop accused

439
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: of killing a man by tasting him repeatedly, even after

440
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 1: that man had been strapped to a gurney. A coroner's

441
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: jury determined that the taser had played a role in

442
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: that man's death. So a cop to he's is a

443
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: restrained man to death and a coroner's jury says, yeah,

444
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 1: the taser is part of why he died, and Taser says, oh,

445
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,239
Speaker 1: we're not going to take that ship sitting down. This

446
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: gets back to what I was saying earlier, Right, Doctor

447
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: Jo is able to claim I can't think of a

448
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: single case where a taser was found to have killed somebody.

449
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: It's because whenever a taser is found to kill somebody,

450
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: Axon goes to fucking war. Right, That's why that is

451
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: the case. And they've got the money to throw at

452
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: it too, right, Yeah, of course they do. She cops

453
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: are buying a lot of tasers. Now. Dr Hoe was

454
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: not about to let that stand. In two thousand five,

455
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: he'd taken a course with the Las Vegas Police Department

456
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: on excited delirium, and in two thousand seven in court,

457
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: he cited symptoms of excited delirium to explain how the

458
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: man had died totally independent of being repeatedly tasted. The

459
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: judge ruled in favor of the police and axe On.

460
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: In two thousand eight, Axon hired Hoe is part of

461
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: their lawsuit against a medical examiner in Ohio who cited

462
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: tasers as a factor in three deaths, who argued that

463
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: the taser could not have killed any of those people,

464
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: claiming that excited delirium had caused death in all three cases.

465
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: The judge ruled again in favor of Axon and the

466
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: medical examiner was forced to remove any reference to taser

467
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: from the death records. In one of these cases, the

468
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: this exonerated a police officer who was being charged with murder.

469
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: So that's good, that's good ship. Yeah, it's it's so fun.

470
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: We're having a good time. So I I I imagine

471
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: that someone is I don't know, like it's weird. It's

472
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: it's time, I guess for an irrelevant uh fun fact,

473
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: uh you know, for any fans of Scrooge McDuck. Right,

474
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: you might automatically imagine the people in Axon swimming in

475
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: a vault of money. Uh, but it's actually really difficult,

476
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: especially if you want to get a dive with some air,

477
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: you're much more likely to hurt yourself. And so at

478
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: this point, Robert, it feels like, and I know we've

479
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: got we've got more to explore here, but it feels

480
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: almost like that kind of ridiculous injury is the only

481
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 1: consequence that these folks will face for these actions, right,

482
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: because it appears like business is booming with tasers. They're

483
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: not getting Yeah, no, taser is is fucking nail in

484
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: it these days. Um Yeah, it's not great. Um, And

485
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: we've we've been talking about how taser goes after and

486
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: like goes to war basically needs how a medical examiner's like, yeah,

487
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: obviously a taser killed this guy, or at least a

488
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: taser was a factor in his death. Right, Like, it's

489
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 1: also the fault of the cop tasing him, as opposed

490
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: to purely the taser, because in a lot of cases,

491
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: as a general rule, these cops are not using taste

492
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: is the way they're supposed to be used. Their repeatedly

493
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 1: tasing people at closer range and for longer periods of

494
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: time than they're supposed to. But Taser doesn't want to

495
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: deal with any of that bad press, which means defending

496
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: the cop entirely and removing the Tasers even being involved

497
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: in the death, rather than just being like they're using

498
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: our product improperly, you know, um, which is often the case. UM.

499
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: Here's another completely sociopathic passage from that Axon Investor document

500
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: I quoted in the last episode, quote continued aggressive litigation

501
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: defense to protect our brand equity. We have a simpled

502
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: a team of world class medical experts at our disposal

503
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: and hired additional internal legal resources during two thousand and

504
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: five to provide an efficient means of defending us against

505
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: numerous product liability lawsuits. We have had a total of

506
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: twelve cases dismissed or defense judgments in our favor. We

507
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: view a continued record of successful litigation defense is a

508
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: key factor for our long term growth, So it's good

509
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: for the bottom line. We gotta slander dead people, um,

510
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: and sue medical examine who dare to say that being

511
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: taste repeatedly is bad for you? Where did those medical

512
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: professionals get off with the audacity to do their jobs. Yeah, yeah,

513
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: to dare to dare to blame a device that electrocutes

514
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: people for their hearts stopping. Um, yes, fucking shameful. About

515
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty nine U S dollars per share.

516
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: It's up five point three percent today. Oh wow. Yeah,

517
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: so let's look at their five year Wow, their five

518
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: year trend line in a in two thousand and sixteen,

519
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: they were at like thirty dollars to share, and they're

520
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: they're down from their peak, which was um a little

521
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: earlier this year February, but they're at like, so that's

522
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, five years they've like quadrupled in stock values.

523
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: So that's pretty good. Um, holy smokes. Yeah, let's looks.

524
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so they were at like a low point

525
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: in in two thousand so yeah, at around like two

526
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: thousand four, two thousand five, they're they're like they're like

527
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: nine sixty a share, um, and really they start to

528
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: soar after two thousands sixteen. That's like almost all of

529
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: their stock growth, that growth growth has happened after that point.

530
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: And they're only twenty eight years old as a company. Yeah. Yeah,

531
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: I don't know why I sometimes get that. I'm probably

532
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: not the only one. But I sometimes like if you

533
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: read a lot about um defense corporations and like the

534
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: bigger players in the industry, it's it's always easy or

535
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,239
Speaker 1: attempting to assume like, oh, these dudes are old as

536
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,959
Speaker 1: ship and they go back to you know, uh, the

537
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: world wars and so on, But that's not the case.

538
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: Twenty eight years old founded and obviously we're talking about

539
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: a new kind of thing with a taser, Like the

540
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: technology hasn't existed all that long. But yeah, these guys

541
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: are like their new to law enforcement. Um IF Even

542
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: if you're someone who believes cops should exist and there's

543
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: a benefit to having cops, there's a lot of evidence

544
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: that we're capable of maintaining cops are capable. Whatever you

545
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: think they're doing that's positive can be done without a

546
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: taser um or at least with a maybe with a

547
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: taser that's that accepts the deadliness of their product potentially

548
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: and works to mitigate it, rather than just suing anyone

549
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: who claims it's deadly, Like an ethical if you're going

550
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: to if there's any ethical way to do this, and

551
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: I do think there's ethical reasons for less than lethal weapons,

552
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: even though I don't believe in the police. I think

553
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: that there's reasons to have stuff that's not a fucking

554
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: gun that you could use against somebody that might stop

555
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: them from carrying out a violent act. An ethical company

556
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: where that to be a sort of thing that could

557
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: exist would be like, oh, God, they died in this

558
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: case because the person applied the taser for too long.

559
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: Let's build in like a guidance thing so that it

560
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: can't do so shocks, like, oh, maybe we have it

561
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: too hot, like you. There are ways in which this

562
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: could be more ethical than it currently is, but it

563
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: seems like mostly what they do is just sue anybody

564
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: who claims their products dangerous, which is cool, um and good, Yeah,

565
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: so good. During his time with Axon, doctor Hope Press

566
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: has provided expert consulting in more than twenty four lawsuits

567
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: in fourteen states and one Canadian province. In addition to

568
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: the hundred and forty thousand dollars per year Axon paid

569
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: of his salary, Hope builds four hundred dollars an hour

570
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: for his services to ax On and the different law

571
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: enforcement agencies. He defends. He's been hired to give more

572
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: than a hundred presentations around the world on Taser's wonderful technology.

573
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: In two thousand six, he lectured to French police. In

574
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, he gave presentations on arrest related deaths

575
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 1: in the use of force in Serbia and Turkey. In

576
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: two thousand and seventeen, he traveled to London and Ireland

577
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: to spread the gospel of tays. By two thousand nineteen,

578
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: doctor Hoe was an extremely valuable and prolific contributor to

579
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: the spread of Tasers worldwide. That year was the first

580
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: time his financial relationship with the company was revealed publicly

581
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: when The Star Tribune published a bomb l investigation titled

582
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: Where Law and Medicine Collide. Here's how that article opens up.

583
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: Depending on the day, Jeffrey hose work attire may include

584
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: a doctor's white coat or a badge and a forty

585
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: caliber glock with high capacity magazines. Hos Ho transitions between

586
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: head of Paramedics at HCMC, where he oversees the response

587
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: to tens of thousands of nine one one calls every year,

588
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: and a part time sheriff's deputy in rural Minnesota. He

589
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: also draws on his expertise and healthcare and law enforcement

590
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: for a third job. He is a paid advocate for

591
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: the Taser stun gun, one of the most popular police

592
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: weapons in North America. Hoose allegiances to medicine police and

593
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: collided last year when investigators from the Minneapolis Department of

594
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: Civil Rights discovered that police officers were urging paramedics to

595
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: sedate emotionally disturbed people in the field with the powerful

596
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: sedative ketamine. Some patients were then enrolled without their consent

597
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: and an hcmc C study on ketamine, on which Ho

598
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: was a lead researcher. Now, this is getting us a

599
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: little bit outside of tasers and excited delirium, but it's

600
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: a fucked up story and we're gonna talk about it. So,

601
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: starting in two thousand fourteen, researchers at HCMC, led by Ho,

602
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: started having paramedics responding to medical emergencies inject quote agitated

603
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: people with either ketamine or a control group sedative to

604
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: see which worked better. As noted in the quote above,

605
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: patients were not asked for consent, and we're only informed

606
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: afterwards of what had been done to them and that

607
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,479
Speaker 1: they've been enrolled in a study. Now, medical ethics does

608
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: allow for patients to be drugged without consent under certain circumstances. Right.

609
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes people are a danger to themselves and others, and

610
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: that is considered to be the best way to deal

611
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: with it. Right. If the situation is an emergency and

612
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: the risks of the medication are considered minimal, this can

613
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: be done. But that is not the case with ketamine

614
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: being administered in Hinnepin County. From a write up in Nature, quote,

615
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: thirty nine percent of subjects who received ketamine developed respiratory

616
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: problems that required the insertion of a breathing tube, compared

617
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: to only four percent of those who received the sedative

618
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 1: Hello paradol. The study also reported that ketamine sedated patients

619
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: much more quickly than how a pair at all did,

620
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: but that respiratory side effects were most likely to develop

621
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: and severely agitated patients who received ketamine, So there's significant

622
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: dangers to this. After three years of drugging agitated people

623
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: at random, the hc MC launched a second study of

624
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: ketamine use in non compliant patients. Four hundred and twenty

625
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: people were enrolled in this study. Although in role was

626
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: an odd term to use for people who are drugged

627
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: against their will, the way the study was supposed to

628
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: work was that all agitated patients admitted to the hospital

629
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: during the first six months of the year would be

630
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: dosed with ketamine. Well, everyone who was agitated and admitted

631
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: during the last six months of the year would receive

632
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: how low paradol either or a different sett The hospital

633
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: had to study had to shut the study down after

634
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: just six months, though, because a Star Tribune investigation publicized

635
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: a report from the Minneapolis Department of Civil Rights. This

636
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: report alleged that rather than the study being conducted just

637
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: on patients admitted to the hospital, local cops had started

638
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: advising paramedics to drug troublesome patients, including people the police

639
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 1: had already physically restrained. Now the hospital devised the police. Yeah, yeah,

640
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: that's not good. Is it disturbing? Yeah? Cops are the

641
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: people who should determine when someone gets fucking ketamine, right,

642
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: because then then inherently the police who are not doctors,

643
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 1: with this one notable exception of doctor, oh, that puts

644
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: them in a supervisory or administrative role in this study,

645
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: does it not. You could argue that m hm oh,

646
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: but these guys aren't part of the studying necessarily. This

647
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 1: is just happening in the field, like the hospital gets

648
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: approved to do this on patients in the hospital, and

649
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: so this stuff becomes part of the toolkit paramedics are

650
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: carrying around, and cops find out about it, and they

651
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: just start having people drugged when they're having an issue

652
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: with somebody. Wow, that is it's pretty rad. That has

653
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 1: never happened. Yeah. Well, for every audi in the audience

654
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: today who was a big fan of recreational drugs and

655
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 1: is somehow not familiar with what I mean, is fun Yeah, yeah, well,

656
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: it's not the right circumstances there. We go very important

657
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: asterisk there. If you are a fan of recreational drug use, uh,

658
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: you probably don't want law enforcement calling your dosage or

659
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: you don't want to be hanging out with them. Uh.

660
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: And also I would argue, you know, when you're saying

661
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: in the right context there, Robert, you probably mean consensual ketamine, right, yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

662
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: Like the last time I did ketamine was in a

663
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 1: hotel in Los Angeles with a bunch of friends, um,

664
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: well like a friend in their co workers, and we

665
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: were all railing lines of ketamine off of the side

666
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 1: of a machete and having lovely conversations. And that was

667
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 1: a wonderful night. Um. We called it machete amine. Um.

668
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: But we all consented and none of us were being

669
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: restrained by police at the time, which I think both

670
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: of those facts were key to our enjoyment of the

671
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: machetamine that night. It's it was. It's a good way

672
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: to do ketamine. Um. I I I highly recommend it.

673
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: Uh theoretically, you know, theoretically, so um, hypothetically, hypothetically that

674
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: would be an enjoyable thing to do. And I should

675
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: note for legal purposes. H. C mc denies that police

676
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 1: ever directed paramedics in this way, but um, you can

677
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: decide whether or not you believe them. I think the

678
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: Star Tribunes reporting makes me question that. But you know what,

679
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: I don't question. Nothing says cool ranch like a mustard

680
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: gas cloud billowing across the fields of Flanders. Anyway, here's

681
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: some products. We're back. And I was just telling my

682
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: friends how while eighteen grand isn't enough to buy my integrity,

683
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: just giving me a pile of weapons is like if

684
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: the company that makes bear cats wants to give me

685
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: a bear cat, I will stop complaining about the police bearcats.

686
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: I'm telling you all that right now. My integrity is

687
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: the price of a free bear cat that I could

688
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: drive around town. Um, I'll do it. I'm not even

689
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: I don't even feel bad about it. You would use

690
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: it for good though, No, no, no, no, no, no,

691
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: I absolutely would not, but it would be it would

692
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: be fun. It would be fun. Um. There's a lot

693
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 1: of things you can do with a bearcat that people

694
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: would have trouble stopping you from doing. Um, So we

695
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: should probably get back to the episode. Yeah. Now. The

696
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: Star Tribune report on this Hennepin County Medical Center ketamine

697
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: study also revealed that in several cases, these involuntary ketamine

698
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: doses stopped patients hearts. Multiple people had to be resuscitated

699
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: at the hospital. And some of these stories are fucking horrifying.

700
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: Here's the Star Tribune. And remember Dr Hoe was one

701
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: of the lead researchers on this study. Good guy quote.

702
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: Body camera footage from one case showed a woman, after

703
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: being maced by police, asking for an asthma pump. The

704
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 1: draft report said, instead, a paramedic gave her an injection

705
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: of ketamine if she was having an asthma attack, Giving

706
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: ketamine actually helps patients, and we're doing a study for

707
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: agitation anyway, So I had to give her ketamine, the

708
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: unnamed paramedic told a police officer. According to the report,

709
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: after receiving ketamine, the woman's breathing stopped and medical staff

710
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: resuscitated her. According to the report, it is troubling that

711
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: the dictate of the study mentioned by the paramedics, it clears,

712
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: appears to have played a significant role in the decision

713
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: to administer ketamine. The reports authors wrote, I can tell you,

714
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 1: as someone who has had asthma and who has had

715
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: to deal with other people's asthma, the thing you do

716
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: is not just give them a bunch of fucking special

717
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: k you give them there in haler. You know, I'm

718
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: not a paramedic that that would be. That would be

719
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: my go to treatment crass is asthma medication as opposed

720
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: to a fuck load of ketamine that stops their heart.

721
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: I'm not a doctor again, none of us, none of us,

722
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: I think our doctors. But well, actually, like everybody, you

723
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: are reverend doctors. Sorry, I recognize, yes, I am not

724
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: a paramedic now no, yeah, but I feel like that's

725
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: a reasonable assumption there, Robert, that um that you give

726
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: someone asthma medication transpect and not ketamine yeah, not to

727
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: be a backseat first responder, you know, I know, but yeah, right,

728
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: but um, that seems like, yeah, it's just a weird

729
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: direction to take it. Like if someone is going into

730
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: a diabetic shock, right, then wouldn't your go to be

731
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: something like insulin? But again not a paramedical, not a paramedic.

732
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: But yeah, it wouldn't be it wouldn't be ketamine. Um,

733
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be had a mean So, Thomas Hoseley, eighteen

734
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 1: years old, wound up enrolled in this study because he

735
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: had a seizure. His mom called and cops and paramedics

736
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: showed up. His mother insists that he was not combative

737
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: at all. Quote, he was not arguing. All he was

738
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: doing was crying for me because they wouldn't let me

739
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: be by him. Despite this, the police restrained him and

740
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: had paramedics shoot him up with special K. When his

741
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: mother saw him next, he was unconscious and intubated. In

742
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: all these cases, the victims were informed they'd been enrolled

743
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: in doctor Hoss study afterwards by letter. Sixty four doctors, bioethicists,

744
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: and academic researchers co signed a complaint against the h

745
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: c MC study. Michael Carome director of a health research

746
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 1: group and co signer of that complaint, explained quote, this

747
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: isn't even a close call. This is clearly a prospective

748
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: higher risk experiment. This is really just a colossive failure

749
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: of their program to protect human subjects. Dr Jeffrey Ho

750
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: did not see it that way. All available evidence suggests

751
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: he thinks that the costs of this study, which are

752
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: the dignity, bodily, autonomy, and health of its participants, were

753
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,359
Speaker 1: minor compared to the prospective public health benefits. He told

754
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: The Star Tribune. I very much view my career as

755
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: an emergency medicine, law enforcement, and research as parallel pathways

756
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: to public safety. It is my life's work to develop

757
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: these areas of intersection for the benefit of public protection. Question,

758
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: M you got a question about that. Do you think

759
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: he believes that. I think he has to. I think

760
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 1: he knows at some level because he's not a dumb man,

761
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,959
Speaker 1: right you don't. You don't have a resume like this guy.

762
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: If you're and you're not that successful at arguing in court,

763
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,439
Speaker 1: if you're a dumb man. He's not a dumb man.

764
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: But I also think people are very good at knowing

765
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: on some level what they're doing is wrong and still

766
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: doing it because fucking money talks, baby. Yeah, and intelligence

767
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 1: also helps yea helps ration with rationalization. Yeah. Well, props

768
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 1: to his mental park core. Yeah, props to his mental

769
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 1: park core. UM. Now, I'm watching UM for All Mankind

770
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: right now, which is an alternate reality TV show about

771
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: what if the Russians had made it to the moon first,

772
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: and it kind of follows the American space race if

773
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: we lose the race to the Moon and like what

774
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: happens as a result of that. UM. One of the

775
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: characters in it is Werner von Braun, who was a

776
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 1: real guy. He was probably the reason we actually did

777
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: make it to the moon first. He was a brilliant

778
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: rocket scientist who also was a Nazi. He was a

779
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: member of the s s UM. He would argue that

780
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 1: it was forced upon him. I don't think that's a

781
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: valid and I think a lot of historical research suggests

782
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: it's not. UM. But he did he did what he

783
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: did because and he utilized slave labor. There were death

784
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: camps that provided labor. Thousands of labors died building his rockets,

785
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: which he wanted to used to explore space. But he

786
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: was willing to turn into weapons because it furthered his

787
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: rocket research. UM. And I think he would have justified

788
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: it if he'd ever really been called to account for it,

789
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: by saying, like, look, the importance of my research had

790
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: value for all of mankind, So even though people were

791
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 1: suffering in the immediate term, it was worth it for

792
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: the long term benefits of what I was doing. UM.

793
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: I don't think that justifies being a Nazi and utilizing

794
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: slave labor. Um. It just doesn't. Um. But you can,

795
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: if you're a smart person, you can always find a justification,

796
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: Like I will find a way to justify my partnership

797
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 1: with the company that makes bear cats so that I

798
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: can get a free bear cat to drive around town.

799
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: And can you imagine just getting up in the mountains

800
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: doing donuts and whippets and a bear cat That would

801
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: be so fucking rad shooting out the window, Oh my god.

802
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and look at the interior. Really get the

803
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: covered cab option could live there though, overlanding and a

804
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,959
Speaker 1: fucking bear cat sounds like a great time. Oh god, look,

805
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: bear cat people, I I have already admitted on air

806
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: I will sell my integrity for one free bear cat.

807
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: So let's let's make it happen. Yeah, it doesn't have

808
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: to be a Bearcat any any route aran's vehicle. Really,

809
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: I'll take like defense manufacturers, one of those big up

810
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: armored trucks they drive around Afghanistan and a rack. Just

811
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: send it here and I'll change my tune. You know.

812
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: That's it's it's that easy, people. I I support you

813
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: in this, you know, but like at this point, you know,

814
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: I think you really went hard on the Bearcat angle.

815
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: Like I think maybe we can maybe you can say

816
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: that you can be like, hey, I'm a man of integrity.

817
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: I'll sell my soul for for a rout clearing vehicle,

818
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: but it's gotta be bearcat, right, I'll sell my soul now,

819
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm not I'm not particular. I will

820
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 1: sell my soul for any modern armored vehicle as long

821
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: as it's not like a b MP fucking Russian trash anyway,

822
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: or a humpy fuck Humpy's no, thank you. I've been

823
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: in a lot of them and they suck um. But

824
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: like a big one, it's gotta be real, fuck it.

825
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: It's gotta be like a like a like a like

826
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 1: a real monster of of an arm vehicle. And then

827
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: and then I'll sell I'll sell out, absolutely absolutely, Lockheed Martin,

828
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: we can make a lot of money together. Well, you

829
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: could make a lot of money and I could go

830
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: joy writing in an armored vehicle. Win win, Well not

831
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: for all Woden will die, but for me a win win.

832
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: So uh. The story about hc mc ces ketamine program

833
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: broke it right around the same time as the story

834
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: about doctor host cozy relationship with Axon. There was an

835
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: immediate outcry by the community and by some elected officials

836
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: in Minneapolis. H c MC's chief executive resigned over the

837
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: ketamine study. Doctor Hose relationship with Axon was a thorn

838
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: year problem. Publicly, the hospital stood by him, but the

839
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 1: Star Tribune revealed a recording of a private meeting doctor

840
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: ho head with a group of paramedics in which he

841
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: admitted the hospital had asked him to resign. He told them,

842
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 1: why would I resign? I didn't do anything wrong. He

843
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: blamed politics and an over zealous police oversight board for

844
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: the fact the fact that people were angry at him.

845
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure I don't have to tell any of you

846
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: that I think that doctor ho is a grifting scumbag,

847
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 1: and any ethical society would be stripped of his medical

848
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: license and flung into the sun. I could rant about

849
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: him for a while, but it is time to move

850
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: on because there is much more fuccory afoot. But so

851
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: far we've discussed how excited delirium came about, how it's

852
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 1: used to explain away police murder, how taser hired experts

853
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 1: like doctor ho to blame deaths caused by their product

854
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: on excited delirium, and how they sue medical examiners who

855
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: rightfully blame their products for deaths and custody. But it

856
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: gets shadier than that. I want to quote now from

857
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: a Reuter's article which opens with yet another story of

858
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: a man being killed by a cop with a taser.

859
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: Quote with a police officer close behind, Israel hernandez Lock

860
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: ducked into an apartment building and dashed down the hall,

861
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: busting through a rear exit. He scrambled over an iron fence,

862
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 1: landing hard on a parked car, and sprinted across the

863
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: parking lot. Within seconds, officer Jorge Mercado caught up with him,

864
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: drew his taser, and fired a single shot to the chest.

865
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: The recent high school grad and aspiring art teacher collapsed

866
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: on the sidewalk in cardiac arrest. The chase lasted six minutes.

867
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: It was five twenty am on August six thirteen. At

868
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: six eighteen am, he was pronounced dead and by the way,

869
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: Israel Hernandez Locke was being chased by a cop because

870
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: he was spray painting ship. He got murdered for graffiti.

871
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: Four hours later, the Miami Beach Police Department received an

872
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 1: email from stunned gun manufacturer Taser International, so Israel dies

873
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: six eight teen am from a Taser shot to the chest.

874
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: Four hours later, Taser emails the police department. The message,

875
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: marked confidential and not previously reported, provided guidance on how

876
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: investigators should proceed, from collecting hair and nail samples to

877
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: recording the teen's body temperature and documenting his behavior before

878
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: he was stunned, and included a sample press released and

879
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: an evidence collection checklist. In bold letters marked timely and urgent,

880
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 1: the dispatch advised Miami's medical examiner to send the teen's

881
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: brain tissue for testing to Deborah Mash, a University of

882
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: Miami medical researcher. It did not mention Mash had been

883
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,879
Speaker 1: paid by Taser to testify, and it's behalf and loss. Yeah,

884
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: that's right, that's fucking right. If a cop kills you

885
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,240
Speaker 1: with the taser, they will send your fucking brain tissue

886
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 1: to the Axon Corporation or at least one of its

887
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 1: pet medical examiners. Holy ship. Yeah, so that's okay. So

888
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 1: when we say guidance, first off, that timeline is four

889
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: hours profoundly disturbing. Yeah. And then secondly, when we say guidance,

890
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: what do we that feels like guidance with air quotes around, Yeah,

891
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 1: because it feels like it's written kind of like a

892
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: man tag, Like they write a press release for you

893
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: and you just slot in the name of the officer

894
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 1: and the dead kid. You know. Oh man, um, it's

895
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: awesome as shit. It's so good. Everything I just read

896
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 1: in that excerpt is part of a total the total

897
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: package that acts On offers to law enforcement agencies. If

898
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: you taste some team to death, you're not on your own.

899
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: Axon will send you a ready made, fill in the

900
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: brank blank press release and they'll help you come up

901
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 1: with a way to blame the victim. Lawyer Todd Falzone,

902
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: who represented the hernandez Lock family in a liability suit, explains,

903
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 1: from the minute they find out someone dies. They're doing

904
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 1: everything they can behind the scenes to set up a

905
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: legal defense so the case goes away now. When questioned

906
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: about the Hernandez Lack case, the Miami Dade County Associate

907
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner Mark Schumann told Reuters he was unaware that

908
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: Dr Mash was employed by Axon when he sent that

909
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: teenager's brain tissue to her lab for tests. When Reuters

910
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: reached out to Axon VP of Communications, Steve Tuttle told

911
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: them it was not the company's responsibility to inform Schuman

912
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: that they were advising him to send brain tissue to

913
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: one of their employees. They didn't think Dr Mash's relationship

914
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: with the company was something police needed to know either. Quote,

915
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: why would I tell them something that's a legal matter.

916
00:51:53,280 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer. He said, Uh, fuck you, Steve,

917
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: you fucking pieces ship, you absolute goblet. Oh my god,

918
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: you soulless monster. Ah it fucking yeah. Tuttle went on

919
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: to describe Dr Mash as a quote respected independent expert.

920
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: Reuter's was able to show that she had received at

921
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: least twenty four thousand dollars from the corporation from two

922
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: thousand and five to two thousand nine. That's just a

923
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: four year period. We don't know the full amount that

924
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: she has been paid by Axon over the years for

925
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: her services. We don't even know that that's the full

926
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 1: amount from two thousand and five to do this at nine,

927
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: that's what they were able to verify. We do know

928
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: thanks to Reuters, who did a great job. It really

929
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: has been like a fucking uh pit bowl latched on

930
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: to this, this specific story about like the Tasers and

931
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 1: ax On. They've really done some incredible work on this

932
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: um and we know thanks to them that there have

933
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: been at least one thousand and five incidents in the

934
00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: United States where people have died after being stunned with tasers.

935
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: When questioned about Taser's weird policy of inserting themselves into

936
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: active investigations over deaths and custody, Tittle told Reuters that

937
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: his company just wants to ensure investigators get quote, the

938
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: best available evidence in cases where people are killed or

939
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: hurt by their weapons. As he explained it, the scientific

940
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 1: information Axon passes on to examiners is just quote things

941
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 1: that an outside investigating agency needs to see. Coincidentally, one

942
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 1: of Axon's chief finding after all these years of sticking

943
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: their nose into investigations. Is that the overwhelming majority of

944
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: people who die after being taste are killed by underlying

945
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: health conditions, drug use, or some other police force besides

946
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: a taser. From Reuters quote. Though the company has warned

947
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 1: since two thousand nine that is shocked to the chest

948
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: can affect heart function, it says no one has died

949
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: from taser induced cardiac arrest. It asserts its weapons have

950
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: been a factor in just twenty four deaths, always as

951
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: a result of secondary injuries, such as hedge injuries from

952
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: falls after someone was stunned. In two thousand nine, the

953
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: American College of Emergency Physicians published a white paper on

954
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: excited delirium, which is quoted regularly by the FBI and

955
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: by guys like Dr Jeffrey Hoe and ladies like doctor

956
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: Deborah Mash when they need to blame deaths caused by

957
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: tasers or other excessive force on the victim. Incidentally, doctors

958
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 1: Howe and Mash were two of the authors of that

959
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: white paper. At least one of the other nineteen members

960
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: of the task force who wrote that white paper was

961
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 1: also a paid taser consultant. The paper described excited delirium

962
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: as quote a real syndrome of uncertain etiology or cause.

963
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: The white paper didn't Yeah, now, that white paper did

964
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: not note that three of its authors were paid employees

965
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: of ax On. This was justified by the fact that

966
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: it came out in two thousand nine, when disclosures were

967
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: not required for task forces assembled by the American College

968
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 1: of Emergency Physicians. They started requiring that two thousand eleven.

969
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 1: We just didn't require that at the time. It's not

970
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: a lapse of ethics or anything. No reason to re

971
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: examine this now. So far, everything I've gone over today

972
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: is pretty fucked up and infuriating. But guess what, it

973
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,760
Speaker 1: gets worse because Axon also decided in the early odds

974
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: to try to preempt as many lawsuits against medical examiners

975
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 1: as possible by just buying up medical examiners like Dr

976
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: Deborah Mash Here's Reuters quote. Michael Graham, president of the

977
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: National Association of Medical Examiners in two thousand five, was

978
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: approached by Taser in two thousand seven, the chief medical

979
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 1: examiner for St. Louis and professor of pathology at St.

980
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: Louis University, agreed to be a paid Taser consultant and

981
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: still receives an annual stipend. He said Taser wanted to

982
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: educate medical examiners about the physiological effects of its weapons

983
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: and rebut criticism running contrary to the science, Graham said.

984
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: In two fourteen, the Medical Examiners Association hosted a big

985
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 1: meeting on tasers and stun guns. Graham presented at that meeting,

986
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: so did Mark Kroll, a University of Minnesota professor and

987
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,479
Speaker 1: a member of Taser's corporate board since two thousand three.

988
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: Kroll did disclose his tie to the company me when

989
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: he told medical examiners that tasers satisfy quote all relevant

990
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 1: safety standards and advised them to this exclude the weapons

991
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: as potential causes of death. In two thousand eight, Mark

992
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 1: Kroll testified in a wrongful death suit and suggested that

993
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: tasers were like therapy for people suffering from excited delirium.

994
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: If you start exhibiting, Yeah, yeah, taser therapy because you're excited.

995
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: That's like, that's honestly like saying that that is that

996
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: is like saying dying is therapy for depression, except that

997
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: depression is real. Yes, yes, yes, I'm gonna read this

998
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: quote from Mark Kroll because in a in an episode

999
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: full of sociopathic ship. This might take the cake. This

1000
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: is what he said in If you start exhibiting excited

1001
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: delirium behavior and you are in the terminal throes of

1002
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: death and you are so bizarre you can't be controlled

1003
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: any place else, you will receive taser therapy. They need

1004
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,760
Speaker 1: to be brought under control so their lives can be saved.

1005
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 1: Just a life saving. And I mean obviously in my

1006
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: medical kid, I keep a taser right next to the tourniquet.

1007
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 1: Sometimes you need the tourniquet. Sometimes you gotta taste people.

1008
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: That's just medically. Yeah. At the end, Look, if you've

1009
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: got ketamine in a taser, you're basically a hospital. Yeah,

1010
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: you're walking hospital at that point. Yeah. So Kroll is

1011
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: a bioelectricity scientist. In two thousand sixteen, he earned two

1012
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,439
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty seven thousand dollars from Taser and owned

1013
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: one million dollars in company stock. In an email to Reuter's,

1014
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: he insisted that his affiliation with the company did not

1015
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: bias his research, explaining, due to this well known relationship,

1016
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: I was motivated to be very careful, to be extremely

1017
00:57:54,160 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: accurate and objective. Oh oh good, good, good. Uh so,

1018
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: so in other news, it's like, uh, Fox calls new

1019
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: hen house design a step forward and better overall for

1020
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: the hens, right if we're using the tired kind of

1021
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: this open air hen house. Really, Foxes are big fans

1022
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: the wider doors really, when you think about it, are

1023
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: more friendly for everyone, for everybody. Everybody benefits, and then

1024
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: the chickens get more Fox therapy, right right, Fox therapy,

1025
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: which is you know, according to uh, Fox Therapeutics International,

1026
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:45,439
Speaker 1: that's like a lead. Yes, Uh, this is unconscitable, man,

1027
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:50,479
Speaker 1: it's pretty bad. Right, So let's end by talking about

1028
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: one more murder. I think this one is valuable to

1029
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: discuss because it really brings together just every shady tactic

1030
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: and shady professional we've discussed in our episodes so far.

1031
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 1: In two thousand four, David Glausinski's mother called the police

1032
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: because her son, a schizophrenic suffering from substance abuse, was

1033
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: in the midst of a psychotic episode. She told one

1034
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: he needed to be hospitalized. When the cops showed up,

1035
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: he was standing in the street screaming incoherently while holding

1036
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: a bible in a book about the Grateful Dead. Officers

1037
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: tried to restrain him. Glausinski kicked and screamed the doc.

1038
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 1: The cops took him to the ground, and one stunned

1039
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: him nine times by applying a taser directly to his flesh.

1040
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: He was handcuffed, his legs were zip tied, and a

1041
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy pound officer pressed him to the

1042
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: ground while another mazed him. David went into cardiac arrest

1043
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: and died on the spot. His mom sued the cops

1044
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: and axe on and you know what comes next from

1045
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: Reuter's quote. Taser persuaded a judge to exclude a medical

1046
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: examiner and pathologist with twenty five years experience whose testimony

1047
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: was central to the family's case, arguing that it was unqualified, unsupported,

1048
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: and unreliable. Backed by a half dozen experts, Taser asserted

1049
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: that there was no medical certainty its guns shocks caused acidosis,

1050
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: the death was natural and attributable to excited delirium. Taser

1051
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: argued the company had helped from Suffolk County medical examiner.

1052
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 1: The post was held then by Charles Whatley, the man

1053
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: who had revived the excited delirium theory to explain Miami

1054
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: cocaine deaths decades earlier. At Wetley's direction, the coroner on

1055
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: the case. His deputy sent Glausinski's brain samples to Deborah

1056
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 1: Mash at the University of Miami. Mash found evidence of

1057
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: exhaustive mania, a form of excited delirium said to occur

1058
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: when drugs are not present. In his autopsy report, the

1059
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: coroner echoed mashes findings. The Glausinski families lawyers called the

1060
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: concept of excited delirium a sham. The defense prevailed. In

1061
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, Judge William Waldyce missed Taser from the case,

1062
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: finding no admissible evidence the stun gun killed Glausinski. Fucking hell,

1063
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: it's pretty good. Good ship us rad. How much is

1064
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: Big Taser? I feel like we can say big Taser now,

1065
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: And ironically, how much is Big Taser paying the judge?

1066
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if they are, you know, I assume

1067
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: they're paying a lot for the lawyers. I assume, you know,

1068
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of shitty judges who are sympathetic to Taser.

1069
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: And I don't know if they're paying the judge or

1070
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: if they just know how to make the argument to

1071
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 1: get Ship dismissed. I I don't know, I don't I'm

1072
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: not gonna. I'm not gonna do what is legally slandered

1073
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 1: to a judge without more evidence on that. Um, it's

1074
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 1: possible that the the actual corruption here is just in

1075
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: all of these paid experts, right, and the judge is

1076
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: looking at all of these experts who are paid by

1077
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 1: Taser and being like, well, of all these people are

1078
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: saying the Taser couldn't have done it, the Taser must not.

1079
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not defending

1080
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: the judge either. I just don't know enough about his specifics.

1081
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: You're yeah, I mean, you're right, You're right. That's fair

1082
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 1: because otherwise it gets a little too far into speculation.

1083
01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: But my friend, I think you've proven a solid case

1084
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: that this. I know it's very stereotypical on the nose

1085
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: for me to be the one who says this, But

1086
01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 1: it's kind of a conspiracy, is it not? Call it

1087
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 1: a conspiracy? Yeah? Ben, Ben thinking something's a conspiracy? What

1088
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 1: this strange conspiracy? Some way? Call that's all I'm saying.

1089
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: The pieces are there. I'm not saying it's a cake yet.

1090
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:30,439
Speaker 1: But there's some flour, there's some sugar. There's a ship

1091
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: ton of people who could have been alive. Most importantly,

1092
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:40,200
Speaker 1: I think, ye, well that's that's that's the episode. Then

1093
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: that's the episode. Then you've got some plugs that you

1094
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 1: like to plug at this exact moment in time, drop

1095
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: down in the pie zone baby. So yes, uh uh.

1096
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: If you haven't listened, I'm gonna do a weird reverse plug.

1097
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to it could happen here somehow.

1098
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: Please check it out. If you'd like to hear more

1099
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 1: about critical theory, apply to allegations of corruption and conspiracy,

1100
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: checkout stuff they don't want you to know. And uh,

1101
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: if you'd like to hear about ridiculous history, because there's

1102
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 1: a lot of it. Uh, then check us out at

1103
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: ridiculous History. That's that's that's it for me. This is

1104
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 1: gonna stay with me. You know, I appreciate that. I

1105
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: appreciate that we as a two parter, I think, uh

1106
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: me bad and not cool. Yeah, yep, anyway, that's gonna

1107
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 1: do it for all of us here at Behind the

1108
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: Bastards for the week until next week. I don't know

1109
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: Dr Jeffrey hose home address it. I'm soph he's giving me,

1110
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: but I might be committing a felony sign. Okay, well

1111
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: that's just a joke for legal purposes. Also, I don't

1112
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 1: actually I don't actually know his address, so nor would

1113
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: know what I suggest anything. Unfortunately, really in the episode over,

1114
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: yeah we have we have to end this now, all right,

1115
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: have a good week or be very angry or both.

1116
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: M