WEBVTT - Is Coronavirus the End of Cities? 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.116 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.156 --> 0:00:25.236 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:29.276 I'm Noah Felton. When the coronavirus hit New York City, 0:00:29.796 --> 0:00:33.676 hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers left, mostly from the 0:00:33.716 --> 0:00:37.836 city's wealthier neighborhoods. In San Francisco, rent for a one 0:00:37.876 --> 0:00:41.036 bedroom apartment is down at historic eleven point eight percent. 0:00:41.836 --> 0:00:44.676 There's no question that the coronavirus is changing what our 0:00:44.676 --> 0:00:49.116 cities look like now. But will these changes last? Will 0:00:49.156 --> 0:00:52.636 the people who left come back? How will we figure 0:00:52.636 --> 0:00:54.716 out what it means to live in a denser or 0:00:54.796 --> 0:00:58.916 less denser environment in an age of pandemic. Here to 0:00:58.996 --> 0:01:02.596 talk with me about the pandemic, about cities, and about 0:01:02.636 --> 0:01:06.396 protests is Jennifer Bradley. She is the founding director of 0:01:06.476 --> 0:01:10.356 the Center for Urban Innovation at the Aspen Institute. She 0:01:10.436 --> 0:01:14.236 has spent her entire career thinking about cities, how they function, 0:01:14.396 --> 0:01:17.236 and how we can make them better. Recently, she's been 0:01:17.236 --> 0:01:24.476 thinking a lot about the impact of Corona on city life. Jennifer, 0:01:24.556 --> 0:01:27.316 thank you so much for being here. You spent your 0:01:27.436 --> 0:01:32.316 entire career thinking about and analyzing and making recommendations for 0:01:32.396 --> 0:01:36.436 how cities should operate and operate better. And now we're 0:01:36.436 --> 0:01:40.596 facing what feels to me like the biggest crisis for 0:01:40.716 --> 0:01:46.276 cities in our lifetimes. What has been your experience over 0:01:46.316 --> 0:01:51.156 the last few mad months in thinking through and rethinking 0:01:51.196 --> 0:01:54.156 the issues you've been working on your whole career. I 0:01:54.276 --> 0:01:57.516 think that the thing that strikes me over both the 0:01:57.636 --> 0:02:00.716 arc of my career and then particularly within the last 0:02:00.836 --> 0:02:06.716 three months, is that cities are resilient. You remember it 0:02:06.836 --> 0:02:09.316 in the early days of the pandemic, there were these 0:02:09.476 --> 0:02:14.876 kind of prefervid, hysterical articles. Our cities over density seems 0:02:14.916 --> 0:02:16.756 to be the key to the spread. So will we 0:02:16.796 --> 0:02:18.956 ever go back to cities? Will we ever go back 0:02:19.076 --> 0:02:22.756 on the subway? And what you realize now when restrictions 0:02:22.796 --> 0:02:26.356 are starting to lift is it's very hard, it's almost 0:02:26.356 --> 0:02:30.036 impossible to keep people apart from each other. So there 0:02:30.156 --> 0:02:33.476 is this there is something in us as social creatures 0:02:33.476 --> 0:02:38.716 and social animals that brings us towards the congregation, the connection, 0:02:39.036 --> 0:02:42.156 and particularly now the novelty and variety of cities since 0:02:42.196 --> 0:02:44.756 we've been stuck in our houses for so long. So 0:02:45.196 --> 0:02:49.076 I think that resiliency is going to be what will 0:02:49.116 --> 0:02:52.956 help cities move into whatever it is we're going to 0:02:53.076 --> 0:02:57.956 encounter next. I think you're also seeing an understanding that 0:02:57.956 --> 0:03:01.916 the city is many things. The city is both a government, 0:03:02.356 --> 0:03:08.316 but it's also these formal and informal networks of support, 0:03:08.516 --> 0:03:14.356 protection and organization and practices. And I think the fact 0:03:14.396 --> 0:03:20.956 that cities are networked and distributed will help them moving forward, 0:03:21.276 --> 0:03:24.116 because what they have to deal with moving forward is 0:03:25.116 --> 0:03:29.636 radical shifts and declines in their budgets. Right when tax 0:03:29.716 --> 0:03:33.876 revenues go down, city budgets are decimated. So I think 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:35.916 what we're going to see is our understanding of what 0:03:36.076 --> 0:03:39.396 is a city evolved from something that's more top down 0:03:39.396 --> 0:03:46.596 in government centric to something that's more distributed, flexible, a 0:03:46.756 --> 0:03:52.796 kind of diy urbanism, and that will be bumpy and unpredictable, 0:03:53.796 --> 0:03:57.236 but also truer to the spirit of cities, I think, 0:03:57.276 --> 0:03:59.716 and so that gives me some hope for the future. 0:04:00.556 --> 0:04:02.716 There are so many rich things in what you just said, 0:04:02.796 --> 0:04:04.796 and I'm going to try to tease out a few 0:04:04.836 --> 0:04:07.116 of them from you. Let me start with where you 0:04:07.156 --> 0:04:10.596 began about the city as a place of connections. One 0:04:10.596 --> 0:04:13.076 of the amazing things about cities is that, of course 0:04:13.116 --> 0:04:15.436 people have all kinds of connections in small towns and 0:04:15.516 --> 0:04:19.036 in suburbs, but they're a little more predictable. That is 0:04:19.076 --> 0:04:21.396 to say, we know a large percentage of the people 0:04:21.676 --> 0:04:23.716 in the place where we are, or we know how 0:04:23.756 --> 0:04:25.356 to think about those people. But in a city, we 0:04:25.356 --> 0:04:28.436 have all these surprising juxtapositions. And that's one of the 0:04:28.476 --> 0:04:30.716 things that we love about cities, and that makes city 0:04:30.756 --> 0:04:34.756 life distinctive and unique. How does that change when it's 0:04:34.836 --> 0:04:38.556 precisely the idea of the random juxtaposition that is frightening 0:04:38.636 --> 0:04:41.156 us by making us wonder if it's going to lead 0:04:41.196 --> 0:04:44.556 to our being infected. I mean, is there some danger 0:04:44.636 --> 0:04:47.316 that the most distinctive thing about city life, or one 0:04:47.356 --> 0:04:49.916 of the most distinctive things about city life, becomes a 0:04:49.956 --> 0:04:53.036 source of fear rather than a source of joy. I 0:04:53.076 --> 0:04:55.876 don't think so. I think if you look at the 0:04:55.916 --> 0:05:00.556 way that the pandemic trends have unfolded or played out 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:04.036 in the last couple of weeks, you see that there 0:05:04.076 --> 0:05:08.996 are super spread or events within intimate families, within funeral 0:05:09.356 --> 0:05:13.796 within birthday parties. So we are not necessarily safer with 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:17.956 the people we know than with people that we don't know, 0:05:18.436 --> 0:05:22.076 and cities have always been about how to behave in 0:05:22.196 --> 0:05:27.996 public and how to behave civilly with strangers. And I 0:05:28.036 --> 0:05:31.276 think in some ways it might actually be easier to 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:36.276 behave civilly with strangers to understand. I hope we get 0:05:36.316 --> 0:05:39.316 to the point where we understand that going outside during 0:05:39.316 --> 0:05:42.516 this period without a mask should be as unthinkable as 0:05:42.556 --> 0:05:46.476 going outside without pants. We begin to understand that we 0:05:46.516 --> 0:05:49.876 need to wash our hands. It can be easier to 0:05:49.956 --> 0:05:53.996 do that in the kind of semi anonymous public spaces 0:05:54.116 --> 0:05:57.476 than it can be with those who are close to us. 0:05:57.596 --> 0:06:00.236 Right when we wouldn't necessarily want to say, oh, Dad, 0:06:00.356 --> 0:06:03.196 you know I can't hug you. You really do need 0:06:03.236 --> 0:06:05.116 to wear a mask to keep you safe, to keep 0:06:05.156 --> 0:06:09.196 me safe. So I think that being in public with 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:13.516 strangers is actually going to feel kind of invigorating, and 0:06:13.516 --> 0:06:17.676 we will find new ways and protocols, right the nod 0:06:17.916 --> 0:06:20.956 over the mask rather than the full smile, different ways 0:06:20.956 --> 0:06:23.276 of greeting people, and this feeling that we're all going 0:06:23.396 --> 0:06:26.716 through something on our streets together. I think we will 0:06:26.756 --> 0:06:32.116 want more public having been so radically private and privatized 0:06:32.156 --> 0:06:35.836 in all of our dealings. That's actually very inspiring, and 0:06:36.356 --> 0:06:40.196 I love what you said. Another word you used was resilience, 0:06:40.236 --> 0:06:44.276 that cities are places of resilience. What if people start leaving. 0:06:44.556 --> 0:06:46.676 My parents live on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, 0:06:46.756 --> 0:06:48.156 which I like to refer to as the city that 0:06:48.236 --> 0:06:52.036 frequently sleeps, and the New York Times reported using cell 0:06:52.036 --> 0:06:56.596 phone data that something like two thirds of the census 0:06:56.596 --> 0:07:00.316 tract in which they live left the city. Now, that's 0:07:00.316 --> 0:07:03.196 an extreme neighborhood. Obviously in many way as a high 0:07:03.196 --> 0:07:04.796 percentage of that people they are can afford to go 0:07:04.876 --> 0:07:08.676 somewhere else. But one wonders if that is the harbinger 0:07:08.716 --> 0:07:11.116 of something to come. Do you have the sense that 0:07:11.156 --> 0:07:13.596 there will be a decline in the population of major 0:07:13.596 --> 0:07:17.436 cities over time? You rescue that question with the caveat 0:07:17.476 --> 0:07:20.676 of adding the word major cities. Cities are not all 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:27.036 one thing. I think there may be less attraction in 0:07:27.076 --> 0:07:31.876 the near term for incredibly high cost, incredibly dense cities 0:07:32.436 --> 0:07:35.996 like certain parts of New York. People are talking about 0:07:35.996 --> 0:07:40.476 San Francisco. Whether engineers want to pay the extraordinarily high 0:07:40.476 --> 0:07:44.156 housing costs when if they're working from home, they might 0:07:44.196 --> 0:07:47.756 just as well live happily in Denver or Portland or Austin. 0:07:47.956 --> 0:07:52.556 Or Boise. I don't think though, that this spells a 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:56.476 kind of end of cities or even end of big cities, 0:07:56.636 --> 0:08:00.916 for several reasons. One, cities are incredibly hard to kill. 0:08:01.556 --> 0:08:04.316 You look at a city like Detroit. Detroit's lost more 0:08:04.356 --> 0:08:08.796 than a million people, but it's still actually a viable city. 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:12.036 It is still actually one of the larger cities in 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:16.476 the United States. And what people are forgetting right now 0:08:16.716 --> 0:08:20.196 when people are able to work from homework from anywhere, 0:08:20.796 --> 0:08:25.036 is that that's essentially the interest off of the accumulated 0:08:25.116 --> 0:08:30.196 social capital that was built up through face to face interactions, 0:08:30.556 --> 0:08:33.956 through the random meetings, through running into a colleague in 0:08:33.956 --> 0:08:40.276 the hall. That's not going to be sustainable over the 0:08:40.356 --> 0:08:45.036 course of decades. Also, cities are important labor markets, and 0:08:45.276 --> 0:08:48.676 you'll need a wide number of opportunities for people who 0:08:48.876 --> 0:08:52.516 are in two career households. So it's fine if one 0:08:52.556 --> 0:08:54.956 person in the family is a Facebook engineer and can 0:08:54.996 --> 0:08:59.516 work from anywhere, but her partner may not have the 0:08:59.596 --> 0:09:02.076 same privilege and may need to be back in that 0:09:02.116 --> 0:09:04.996 dense labor market of a San Francisco or a Los 0:09:04.996 --> 0:09:07.876 Angeles or even a Denver or an Austin. So I 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:12.116 just don't see this trend reversing and turning on its 0:09:12.116 --> 0:09:15.036 head and again, because there are other aspects of cities too. 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:19.636 They're not just places to work, they're places for discovery, delight, 0:09:20.236 --> 0:09:24.476 for culture. I'm stunned. You can't keep people out of restaurants. 0:09:25.276 --> 0:09:27.996 I'm blown away by this. Right, people are risking their 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:30.876 health for brunch. So that says to me that there 0:09:30.956 --> 0:09:35.716 is something about cities urbanity, And I don't make a 0:09:35.716 --> 0:09:38.116 strong distinction between city and suburb when I say this. 0:09:38.996 --> 0:09:41.636 I just think it's meets so deep a need in 0:09:41.676 --> 0:09:45.596 the human spirit that we will keep finding ways to 0:09:45.836 --> 0:09:49.796 gather like this. I completely share your instinct that it's 0:09:50.236 --> 0:09:53.556 kind of an inspiring fact about the human need for 0:09:53.596 --> 0:09:56.116 social contact that people, as you put it, are risking 0:09:56.116 --> 0:09:58.596 their lives for brunch, which is a great phase. But 0:09:58.716 --> 0:10:01.596 to say that is also to realize that all of 0:10:01.636 --> 0:10:04.316 my public health professional friends, you know, many of whom 0:10:04.356 --> 0:10:07.956 have been on the show, their responses, it's crazy to 0:10:08.036 --> 0:10:10.756 risk your life for brunch. It's a mistake. What we 0:10:10.836 --> 0:10:14.556 need our firmer regulations and maybe firmer social norms that 0:10:14.716 --> 0:10:16.716 make it clear that we shouldn't be doing this. They 0:10:16.756 --> 0:10:20.076 do not think, for the most part that restaurants should 0:10:20.076 --> 0:10:22.276 be open for brunch if people will risk their lives 0:10:22.276 --> 0:10:25.156 to go there, and I add it oar, but we 0:10:25.196 --> 0:10:30.836 will not be in pandemic forever. I recognize that that's 0:10:30.876 --> 0:10:33.156 part of the question, and maybe I should cash out 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:37.556 that question. It's of course possible that this winter will 0:10:37.596 --> 0:10:40.036 know that there is a vaccine that will work, and 0:10:40.116 --> 0:10:43.956 that's the wonderful best case scenario, you know, Dao SX Machina, 0:10:44.036 --> 0:10:46.356 and we all get back to life. And in that scenario, 0:10:46.396 --> 0:10:49.476 I couldn't agree with you more. But there's also a possibility, 0:10:49.716 --> 0:10:51.716 and a lot of the experts seem to think it's 0:10:51.796 --> 0:10:54.636 a probability that what we'll find then is actually that 0:10:54.676 --> 0:10:58.596 we can't do that, that none of the vaccines really works, 0:10:58.716 --> 0:11:00.516 or that they work somewhat, or that they work for 0:11:00.636 --> 0:11:03.556 younger and healthier people, and that in that scenario, we're 0:11:03.596 --> 0:11:06.756 going to have to start accepting the long term presence 0:11:07.516 --> 0:11:10.436 of pandemic, not of the that kills everybody all the time, 0:11:10.476 --> 0:11:12.716 but that kills some of the people some of the time. 0:11:13.276 --> 0:11:16.356 And under those circumstances, you can already feel any here. 0:11:16.476 --> 0:11:19.316 The public health professionals saying we're gonna have to maintain 0:11:19.396 --> 0:11:23.756 social distancing for the foreseeable future. What about in that situation, 0:11:23.796 --> 0:11:27.916 I mean, doesn't that pose more fundamental threats to the 0:11:27.996 --> 0:11:31.476 aspiration to social life that we associate with cities. Yes, 0:11:32.516 --> 0:11:37.996 and there are very dense cities that seem to be 0:11:38.756 --> 0:11:43.876 managing and figuring this out. I think we will change cities, 0:11:44.476 --> 0:11:51.036 but plagues haven't killed cities. The times that we have 0:11:52.036 --> 0:11:58.116 dramatically reduced our density and shifted our gradient has been 0:11:58.916 --> 0:12:03.156 because of enormous public campaigns and massive amounts of subsidies. 0:12:03.516 --> 0:12:07.596 That's when we change the American landscape in the middle 0:12:07.596 --> 0:12:14.516 of the century through the nineties. Absent that combination of 0:12:14.556 --> 0:12:19.916 both significant campaign and massive subsidies, I don't see how 0:12:19.916 --> 0:12:22.436 it will work and where it will come from. And 0:12:22.516 --> 0:12:24.716 this just tells you basically that I'm an urbanist and 0:12:24.756 --> 0:12:27.796 I'm committed to cities, and I will endeavor to keep 0:12:27.876 --> 0:12:30.916 them strong and safe. But I don't know that my 0:12:30.996 --> 0:12:35.476 life would be necessarily better in a more suburban environment 0:12:35.516 --> 0:12:38.036 than it is living in an apartment building in Washington, 0:12:38.116 --> 0:12:40.116 d C. I very much wish I had in unit 0:12:40.156 --> 0:12:42.956 washer dryer, But other than that, I don't see how 0:12:42.996 --> 0:12:48.436 it's better if I'm out in only Maryland. It's a 0:12:48.516 --> 0:12:52.076 hugely important insight that you've written about that the movement 0:12:52.076 --> 0:12:53.916 to the suburbs that we associate with the post World 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:56.436 War two period wasn't just some accident, and wasn't just 0:12:56.476 --> 0:12:58.676 the result of market forces, but was also the result 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:02.716 of government policies and subsidies. What I'm wondering is if 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:04.996 we might not see over the next three to five 0:13:05.076 --> 0:13:11.236 years a kind of less explicit, but nevertheless present reorientation 0:13:11.796 --> 0:13:16.356 of how government officials think about cities, because I think 0:13:16.356 --> 0:13:18.996 a lot of the urbanist picture that you've been describing 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:22.116 has been embraced by lots and lots of public officials 0:13:22.276 --> 0:13:24.756 in the last decade or two. But that seems to 0:13:24.756 --> 0:13:27.876 me shapeable and malleable. And if you're a government official 0:13:27.916 --> 0:13:30.116 and you're going to be elected or voted out of 0:13:30.116 --> 0:13:33.636 office based on your COVID numbers, and if you're consistently 0:13:33.676 --> 0:13:35.956 seeing which I'm not saying will be, but imagine consistently 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:38.196 seeing that it's in your urban areas that you have 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:41.956 the largest amount of COVID cases, it is possible to 0:13:41.956 --> 0:13:44.956 imagine government officials, I think, saying you know what, let's 0:13:45.116 --> 0:13:48.716 de emphasize density. Let's not invest in the infrastructure that 0:13:48.716 --> 0:13:50.876 makes density work. Let's not invest more in our public 0:13:50.876 --> 0:13:54.276 transit systems, let's not invest more in bike lanes. I'm 0:13:54.276 --> 0:13:55.956 not saying this will happen, but it does seem like 0:13:55.996 --> 0:13:58.236 there could be that kind of a reorientation of a 0:13:58.316 --> 0:14:02.396 historical type if we get this perception that cities are 0:14:02.436 --> 0:14:07.236 where the virus is fair. That said, if you look 0:14:07.276 --> 0:14:12.796 at the data from the most recent case surges, you're 0:14:12.836 --> 0:14:20.476 not seeing a tight correlation with density. So you're seeing Arizona, Florida, 0:14:20.676 --> 0:14:24.676 my home state of Texas. These are not exceptionally dense 0:14:24.756 --> 0:14:28.396 places as the American landscape goes. But aren't we seeing 0:14:28.436 --> 0:14:31.236 in those places that the spikes when you break it 0:14:31.276 --> 0:14:34.876 down within those states, are happening in relatively denser parts 0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:38.476 of those states as opposed to the more rural areas. Yeah, exactly, 0:14:38.596 --> 0:14:41.156 or ex urban areas. Yes and no, right, I mean 0:14:41.196 --> 0:14:42.756 there can be You know, you also look at the 0:14:42.796 --> 0:14:47.356 meatpacking plants, which are dense within the walls but played 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:52.236 out in a less dense, larger landscape. So the density 0:14:52.276 --> 0:14:54.556 I think that we have to be most worried about 0:14:55.116 --> 0:15:00.876 is essentially household and workplace density as opposed to neighborhood 0:15:01.476 --> 0:15:06.436 or city level density. What I would love to see 0:15:06.956 --> 0:15:12.396 is policy focusing on housing and overcrowding so that people 0:15:12.796 --> 0:15:18.316 were not living in dangerous individual unit conditions, that people 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:22.756 who need housing can get housing. Where I would like 0:15:22.916 --> 0:15:26.836 all of this energy to go is in figuring out 0:15:27.116 --> 0:15:29.756 from an epidemiological point of view, from a social point 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:32.636 of view, from an economic point of view, what do 0:15:32.676 --> 0:15:37.436 we need to do to make density safe. We'll be 0:15:37.476 --> 0:15:48.876 back in a moment, Jennifer. One of the things that 0:15:48.916 --> 0:15:54.556 you spoke about was how cities are networks of support, 0:15:54.956 --> 0:15:58.436 networks of connection, and that in some way they're in 0:15:58.476 --> 0:16:03.116 that sense decentralized. That's a fascinating idea and it's counterintuitive 0:16:03.156 --> 0:16:04.876 to me. So would you say more about that. When 0:16:04.916 --> 0:16:07.556 I think of the city, I think of concentration rather 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:11.956 than of diffusing of authority or responsibility. So please explain. 0:16:12.636 --> 0:16:18.316 You see this anecdotally in stories about people caring for 0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:22.116 their neighbors, right, looking out for somebody down the street 0:16:22.196 --> 0:16:25.556 who may be immunocompromised or who may be elderly, and 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:30.436 bringing them groceries. Right. Those are informal, mutual networks of support. 0:16:30.996 --> 0:16:33.196 You see it in the way that different neighborhoods have 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:38.676 responded to well intentioned but poorly thought out policy initiatives 0:16:38.716 --> 0:16:43.676 during this time. So, for example, Oakland decided to pedestrianize 0:16:43.716 --> 0:16:47.156 a large amount of streets without thinking about who might 0:16:47.316 --> 0:16:50.916 need those streets for car parking and commuting. So that 0:16:50.996 --> 0:16:55.156 was frontline workers in neighborhoods that were predominantly populated by 0:16:55.156 --> 0:16:58.156 people of color, and this notion of safe streets kind 0:16:58.156 --> 0:17:02.876 of imposed was not an appropriate policy response. So neighborhoods 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:06.716 are organizing to get the kinds of things that they 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:11.956 need during the pandemic and show that they are differentiated 0:17:12.316 --> 0:17:14.716 in a kind of self determining way. And we all 0:17:14.756 --> 0:17:18.236 know that power across the city and power across neighborhoods 0:17:18.356 --> 0:17:22.276 is not necessarily evenly distributed, and organizational capacity and interest 0:17:22.356 --> 0:17:26.236 is not necessarily evenly distributed. And I think we're seeing 0:17:27.316 --> 0:17:32.396 those differences in capacity play out and places that have 0:17:32.436 --> 0:17:37.436 not previously been organized organizing more forcefully. Right because your home, 0:17:37.596 --> 0:17:40.116 you're nearer your neighbors, you can kind of engage with them. 0:17:40.196 --> 0:17:43.436 You are now better able to organize and identify yourself 0:17:43.436 --> 0:17:45.556 and to speak up for yourself. Then I think this 0:17:45.596 --> 0:17:48.476 will come up more and more as cities have to 0:17:48.516 --> 0:17:52.276 make difficult choices about the distribution of resources during the 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:56.956 next phase, once there is more economic activity. You use 0:17:57.036 --> 0:18:00.996 the phrase DIY urbanism, which is also really fascinating, and 0:18:01.036 --> 0:18:03.636 I want to hear more about that, because it seems 0:18:03.676 --> 0:18:05.716 to me that a lot of what we've seen during 0:18:05.716 --> 0:18:09.956 this Corona period is municipal governments how us what to do. 0:18:10.556 --> 0:18:12.916 Where I live Cambridge, Massachusetts, which is a weird city, 0:18:12.956 --> 0:18:14.836 but it is my city, is the one I grew 0:18:14.876 --> 0:18:17.116 up in and I love it. You know, long before 0:18:17.196 --> 0:18:19.796 the state had a mass coordinance, the city had a 0:18:19.796 --> 0:18:22.916 mass coordinance that it was enforcing I think practically not 0:18:22.956 --> 0:18:25.876 at all. But Cambridge being Cambridge, there was lots of 0:18:26.396 --> 0:18:29.116 moral enforcement from people on the streets. But that was 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:32.036 the opposite of do it yourself. It was the government 0:18:32.076 --> 0:18:35.076 does it. When I hear DIY, I imagine sort of 0:18:35.116 --> 0:18:39.796 spontaneously organizing individuals rather than the institutions of the city. 0:18:39.796 --> 0:18:41.676 But maybe that's not what you meant by do it yourself. 0:18:42.316 --> 0:18:43.956 I think you can look at right, so you could 0:18:43.996 --> 0:18:48.716 say that Cambridge decided on its own that it was 0:18:48.796 --> 0:18:50.596 not going to wait for the lead of the state 0:18:50.636 --> 0:18:53.516 of Massachusetts that it had a better understanding of what 0:18:53.556 --> 0:18:57.276 residents needed. The other DIY urbanism I'm seeing is people 0:18:57.316 --> 0:19:01.476 reclaiming the streets in particular ways, shifting more street space 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:04.916 to pedestrians as opposed to cars without waiting for an 0:19:04.916 --> 0:19:11.156 official city designation, spontaneous but socially stons gatherings. One could 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:15.356 argue that these protests that have been rolling through the 0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:18.236 month of June and continuing in some cities are also 0:19:18.276 --> 0:19:23.396 a kind of reclaiming of public space in a powerful 0:19:23.476 --> 0:19:28.396 way that bespeaks a desire to use and shape space, 0:19:28.476 --> 0:19:30.756 even in a pandemic, in a way that responds to 0:19:30.956 --> 0:19:35.316 particular needs. So I think people will continue to use 0:19:35.356 --> 0:19:39.276 the city space to get what they want. People make 0:19:39.396 --> 0:19:41.636 the city as they live in it, I guess is 0:19:41.676 --> 0:19:45.236 the point that I'm trying to get at, and I 0:19:45.396 --> 0:19:50.116 call that DIY urbanism for short. But that's what makes 0:19:50.116 --> 0:19:55.156 cities so fascinating is they're not top down enterprises. So, yes, 0:19:55.196 --> 0:19:58.156 you have the government setting basic rules, you need to 0:19:58.156 --> 0:20:01.556 wear a mask, these businesses will and will not open. 0:20:01.996 --> 0:20:04.116 This is how commerce is being dictated, and then it's 0:20:04.116 --> 0:20:07.836 how people use in shape and play with and interrogate 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:11.556 and even subvert those rules that I find interesting and 0:20:11.596 --> 0:20:17.316 compelling and profoundly urban. The Black Lives Matter protests, spurred 0:20:17.356 --> 0:20:21.276 most recently by the killing of George Floyd, are themselves, 0:20:21.316 --> 0:20:24.276 as you were saying, a phenomenon with great implication for urbanism, 0:20:24.996 --> 0:20:27.396 and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, both 0:20:27.436 --> 0:20:32.236 about the spontaneous, self organizing, kind of inspiring aspects of 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:35.756 the protests, and also about at the periphery of the 0:20:35.836 --> 0:20:40.236 protests the occasional looting and violence, which has also been 0:20:40.276 --> 0:20:42.956 a recurrent feature of urban life in the United States, 0:20:43.276 --> 0:20:45.716 not just since nineteen sixty eight, but going back even 0:20:45.836 --> 0:20:49.756 before them. I look at the Black Lives Matter protests 0:20:50.316 --> 0:20:55.516 as a commentarian, even an indictment about how racialized space 0:20:55.876 --> 0:21:02.716 is in cities. All spaces Cambridge versus Somerville, DC versus 0:21:02.716 --> 0:21:08.236 Prince George's County have been designated and racialized. And one 0:21:08.236 --> 0:21:10.116 of the things of the interesting to me about the 0:21:10.116 --> 0:21:13.756 Black Lives Matter protest is they seem to be places 0:21:13.836 --> 0:21:19.236 of emerging integration in cities. That's interesting to me. What 0:21:19.436 --> 0:21:25.036 will as we play out the Black Lives Matter social 0:21:25.316 --> 0:21:32.036 and political changes what will that mean for city space integration, 0:21:32.236 --> 0:21:35.956 Who is welcome on what kinds of streets? Who we 0:21:35.996 --> 0:21:39.636 think of as our neighbors. To me, cities are like, 0:21:39.676 --> 0:21:42.756 it's two thousand years of political philosophy in your zoning code, 0:21:42.796 --> 0:21:45.556 right Like. The cities are where we play out our 0:21:45.716 --> 0:21:49.596 public and private philosophies, including a systemic racism which has 0:21:49.716 --> 0:21:52.996 been an important part of America's political philosophy, which is 0:21:53.036 --> 0:21:56.356 literally encoded in city streets and who gets to use 0:21:56.356 --> 0:21:59.436 them and who feels safe where? So, how is that 0:21:59.956 --> 0:22:04.916 going to change as far as looting and protests goes? 0:22:05.276 --> 0:22:07.356 When you say that, all I can think of is 0:22:07.396 --> 0:22:11.916 the nineteen twenty one Tulsa race massacre. That was looting, right, 0:22:12.036 --> 0:22:14.796 That was looting, and that was violence, and it was 0:22:14.916 --> 0:22:20.956 state sanctioned violence against a rising middle class black population. 0:22:21.596 --> 0:22:24.676 And I think that the disruptions that we're seeing now 0:22:25.316 --> 0:22:31.356 are a inexcusable and be nothing as compared to the 0:22:31.476 --> 0:22:38.756 kinds of state sanctioned violence, looting, economic disruption, property disruption 0:22:39.356 --> 0:22:43.956 that white people have perpetuated in neighborhoods of color for decades. 0:22:44.356 --> 0:22:47.676 And one of the things that heartened me is that 0:22:47.796 --> 0:22:52.436 many DC white shopkeepers you know whose businesses were vandalized, said, 0:22:52.436 --> 0:22:56.476 it's property, and I can replace property. And I think 0:22:56.516 --> 0:23:03.036 there is a appropriate understanding that the violence of some 0:23:03.676 --> 0:23:08.396 people who are using the protests as an opportunity doesn't 0:23:08.476 --> 0:23:14.556 invalid the larger undertaking. One last question. Your approach is 0:23:15.236 --> 0:23:19.956 I think measured, thoughtful, and on the whole optimistic. Do 0:23:20.476 --> 0:23:22.996 you have any dark thoughts? I mean, I think the 0:23:22.996 --> 0:23:26.196 structure of our conversation has been my asking dark questions. 0:23:26.196 --> 0:23:28.316 And you're telling me, you know, don't overstate at Feldman. 0:23:28.356 --> 0:23:30.116 You know you're taking it too far, and in fact 0:23:30.156 --> 0:23:31.636 that all these good things and they're coming back. And 0:23:31.636 --> 0:23:34.916 I think that's a good and a heartening set of responses. 0:23:35.396 --> 0:23:37.316 But do you have any worries? Maybe different ones than 0:23:37.356 --> 0:23:41.636 I've thought about. I do worry about public transit. New 0:23:41.676 --> 0:23:45.236 York does not work without public transit. There's no way 0:23:45.476 --> 0:23:48.316 that people are going to be able to move about 0:23:48.356 --> 0:23:52.076 in private vehicles at a volume that a place like 0:23:52.196 --> 0:23:54.636 New York once. And I do worry a little bit 0:23:54.676 --> 0:23:58.876 about temporarily defunding public transit. That I was worried about 0:23:58.876 --> 0:24:01.636 that before. I've been worried about that since people started 0:24:01.676 --> 0:24:05.236 making this argument with autonomous vehicles. I think public transit 0:24:05.436 --> 0:24:08.876 is hugely important. My hope is that there is a 0:24:09.116 --> 0:24:11.236 lip and that people say no. Public transit is actually 0:24:11.276 --> 0:24:13.996 a public good and it's what frontline workers are using, 0:24:14.556 --> 0:24:17.676 and we need to figure out again how to take 0:24:17.716 --> 0:24:20.356 what we have and make it safe. So that's that's 0:24:20.436 --> 0:24:27.436 one fear. I fear younger people remembering this and having 0:24:27.436 --> 0:24:33.116 a fear associated with being outside. I worry during this 0:24:33.236 --> 0:24:37.836 period about loneliness. I have a lot of love in 0:24:37.916 --> 0:24:41.036 my life, but I am going out of my mind. 0:24:41.476 --> 0:24:44.236 I'm desperate to see people, and I worry about As 0:24:44.236 --> 0:24:46.116 I said at the beginning, I do worry about the 0:24:46.196 --> 0:24:49.556 loss of social capital. We're living off the interest of 0:24:49.636 --> 0:24:52.476 all the relationships that we built up face to face. 0:24:53.276 --> 0:24:57.636 How long before we start diving into the principle and 0:24:57.676 --> 0:25:04.836 eroding important nonfamilial relationships because we haven't been able to 0:25:04.876 --> 0:25:08.956 tend them face to face. There are just their cues 0:25:09.196 --> 0:25:12.596 that we miss. I worry that this might go on 0:25:13.596 --> 0:25:18.276 long enough that will forget a little bit. Mostly I 0:25:18.316 --> 0:25:21.876 worry about public transportation. Public transporation out of loneliness. Both 0:25:21.876 --> 0:25:25.436 are existential, though inside the different ways. Yeah, But despair 0:25:25.516 --> 0:25:28.796 and optimism and they're so closely braided. Right. So I 0:25:28.916 --> 0:25:32.436 live on the edge of Rock Creek Park and there's 0:25:32.436 --> 0:25:36.076 a little like Parker exercise zone just underneath my apartment, 0:25:36.356 --> 0:25:39.596 and people are just Wow, they're using it. You can't 0:25:39.636 --> 0:25:42.076 keep them away from it. It's just body after body 0:25:42.076 --> 0:25:44.116