1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:22,156 --> 00:00:25,236 Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:25,716 --> 00:00:29,276 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Felton. When the coronavirus hit New York City, 4 00:00:29,796 --> 00:00:33,676 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers left, mostly from the 5 00:00:33,716 --> 00:00:37,836 Speaker 1: city's wealthier neighborhoods. In San Francisco, rent for a one 6 00:00:37,876 --> 00:00:41,036 Speaker 1: bedroom apartment is down at historic eleven point eight percent. 7 00:00:41,836 --> 00:00:44,676 Speaker 1: There's no question that the coronavirus is changing what our 8 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:49,116 Speaker 1: cities look like now. But will these changes last? Will 9 00:00:49,156 --> 00:00:52,636 Speaker 1: the people who left come back? How will we figure 10 00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:54,716 Speaker 1: out what it means to live in a denser or 11 00:00:54,796 --> 00:00:58,916 Speaker 1: less denser environment in an age of pandemic. Here to 12 00:00:58,996 --> 00:01:02,596 Speaker 1: talk with me about the pandemic, about cities, and about 13 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:06,396 Speaker 1: protests is Jennifer Bradley. She is the founding director of 14 00:01:06,476 --> 00:01:10,356 Speaker 1: the Center for Urban Innovation at the Aspen Institute. She 15 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:14,236 Speaker 1: has spent her entire career thinking about cities, how they function, 16 00:01:14,396 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: and how we can make them better. Recently, she's been 17 00:01:17,236 --> 00:01:24,476 Speaker 1: thinking a lot about the impact of Corona on city life. Jennifer, 18 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:27,316 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. You spent your 19 00:01:27,436 --> 00:01:32,316 Speaker 1: entire career thinking about and analyzing and making recommendations for 20 00:01:32,396 --> 00:01:36,436 Speaker 1: how cities should operate and operate better. And now we're 21 00:01:36,436 --> 00:01:40,596 Speaker 1: facing what feels to me like the biggest crisis for 22 00:01:40,716 --> 00:01:46,276 Speaker 1: cities in our lifetimes. What has been your experience over 23 00:01:46,316 --> 00:01:51,156 Speaker 1: the last few mad months in thinking through and rethinking 24 00:01:51,196 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 1: the issues you've been working on your whole career. I 25 00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:57,516 Speaker 1: think that the thing that strikes me over both the 26 00:01:57,636 --> 00:02:00,716 Speaker 1: arc of my career and then particularly within the last 27 00:02:00,836 --> 00:02:06,716 Speaker 1: three months, is that cities are resilient. You remember it 28 00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:09,316 Speaker 1: in the early days of the pandemic, there were these 29 00:02:09,476 --> 00:02:14,876 Speaker 1: kind of prefervid, hysterical articles. Our cities over density seems 30 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:16,756 Speaker 1: to be the key to the spread. So will we 31 00:02:16,796 --> 00:02:18,956 Speaker 1: ever go back to cities? Will we ever go back 32 00:02:19,076 --> 00:02:22,756 Speaker 1: on the subway? And what you realize now when restrictions 33 00:02:22,796 --> 00:02:26,356 Speaker 1: are starting to lift is it's very hard, it's almost 34 00:02:26,356 --> 00:02:30,036 Speaker 1: impossible to keep people apart from each other. So there 35 00:02:30,156 --> 00:02:33,476 Speaker 1: is this there is something in us as social creatures 36 00:02:33,476 --> 00:02:38,716 Speaker 1: and social animals that brings us towards the congregation, the connection, 37 00:02:39,036 --> 00:02:42,156 Speaker 1: and particularly now the novelty and variety of cities since 38 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: we've been stuck in our houses for so long. So 39 00:02:45,196 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 1: I think that resiliency is going to be what will 40 00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:52,956 Speaker 1: help cities move into whatever it is we're going to 41 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: encounter next. I think you're also seeing an understanding that 42 00:02:57,956 --> 00:03:01,916 Speaker 1: the city is many things. The city is both a government, 43 00:03:02,356 --> 00:03:08,316 Speaker 1: but it's also these formal and informal networks of support, 44 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:14,356 Speaker 1: protection and organization and practices. And I think the fact 45 00:03:14,396 --> 00:03:20,956 Speaker 1: that cities are networked and distributed will help them moving forward, 46 00:03:21,276 --> 00:03:24,116 Speaker 1: because what they have to deal with moving forward is 47 00:03:25,116 --> 00:03:29,636 Speaker 1: radical shifts and declines in their budgets. Right when tax 48 00:03:29,716 --> 00:03:33,876 Speaker 1: revenues go down, city budgets are decimated. So I think 49 00:03:33,876 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 1: what we're going to see is our understanding of what 50 00:03:36,076 --> 00:03:39,396 Speaker 1: is a city evolved from something that's more top down 51 00:03:39,396 --> 00:03:46,596 Speaker 1: in government centric to something that's more distributed, flexible, a 52 00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:52,796 Speaker 1: kind of diy urbanism, and that will be bumpy and unpredictable, 53 00:03:53,796 --> 00:03:57,236 Speaker 1: but also truer to the spirit of cities, I think, 54 00:03:57,276 --> 00:03:59,716 Speaker 1: and so that gives me some hope for the future. 55 00:04:00,556 --> 00:04:02,716 Speaker 1: There are so many rich things in what you just said, 56 00:04:02,796 --> 00:04:04,796 Speaker 1: and I'm going to try to tease out a few 57 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:07,116 Speaker 1: of them from you. Let me start with where you 58 00:04:07,156 --> 00:04:10,596 Speaker 1: began about the city as a place of connections. One 59 00:04:10,596 --> 00:04:13,076 Speaker 1: of the amazing things about cities is that, of course 60 00:04:13,116 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 1: people have all kinds of connections in small towns and 61 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:19,036 Speaker 1: in suburbs, but they're a little more predictable. That is 62 00:04:19,076 --> 00:04:21,396 Speaker 1: to say, we know a large percentage of the people 63 00:04:21,676 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 1: in the place where we are, or we know how 64 00:04:23,756 --> 00:04:25,356 Speaker 1: to think about those people. But in a city, we 65 00:04:25,356 --> 00:04:28,436 Speaker 1: have all these surprising juxtapositions. And that's one of the 66 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:30,716 Speaker 1: things that we love about cities, and that makes city 67 00:04:30,756 --> 00:04:34,756 Speaker 1: life distinctive and unique. How does that change when it's 68 00:04:34,836 --> 00:04:38,556 Speaker 1: precisely the idea of the random juxtaposition that is frightening 69 00:04:38,636 --> 00:04:41,156 Speaker 1: us by making us wonder if it's going to lead 70 00:04:41,196 --> 00:04:44,556 Speaker 1: to our being infected. I mean, is there some danger 71 00:04:44,636 --> 00:04:47,316 Speaker 1: that the most distinctive thing about city life, or one 72 00:04:47,356 --> 00:04:49,916 Speaker 1: of the most distinctive things about city life, becomes a 73 00:04:49,956 --> 00:04:53,036 Speaker 1: source of fear rather than a source of joy. I 74 00:04:53,076 --> 00:04:55,876 Speaker 1: don't think so. I think if you look at the 75 00:04:55,916 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 1: way that the pandemic trends have unfolded or played out 76 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:04,036 Speaker 1: in the last couple of weeks, you see that there 77 00:05:04,076 --> 00:05:08,996 Speaker 1: are super spread or events within intimate families, within funeral 78 00:05:09,356 --> 00:05:13,796 Speaker 1: within birthday parties. So we are not necessarily safer with 79 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 1: the people we know than with people that we don't know, 80 00:05:18,436 --> 00:05:22,076 Speaker 1: and cities have always been about how to behave in 81 00:05:22,196 --> 00:05:27,996 Speaker 1: public and how to behave civilly with strangers. And I 82 00:05:28,036 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 1: think in some ways it might actually be easier to 83 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:36,276 Speaker 1: behave civilly with strangers to understand. I hope we get 84 00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:39,316 Speaker 1: to the point where we understand that going outside during 85 00:05:39,316 --> 00:05:42,516 Speaker 1: this period without a mask should be as unthinkable as 86 00:05:42,556 --> 00:05:46,476 Speaker 1: going outside without pants. We begin to understand that we 87 00:05:46,516 --> 00:05:49,876 Speaker 1: need to wash our hands. It can be easier to 88 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:53,996 Speaker 1: do that in the kind of semi anonymous public spaces 89 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:57,476 Speaker 1: than it can be with those who are close to us. 90 00:05:57,596 --> 00:06:00,236 Speaker 1: Right when we wouldn't necessarily want to say, oh, Dad, 91 00:06:00,356 --> 00:06:03,196 Speaker 1: you know I can't hug you. You really do need 92 00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:05,116 Speaker 1: to wear a mask to keep you safe, to keep 93 00:06:05,156 --> 00:06:09,196 Speaker 1: me safe. So I think that being in public with 94 00:06:09,356 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 1: strangers is actually going to feel kind of invigorating, and 95 00:06:13,516 --> 00:06:17,676 Speaker 1: we will find new ways and protocols, right the nod 96 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:20,956 Speaker 1: over the mask rather than the full smile, different ways 97 00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:23,276 Speaker 1: of greeting people, and this feeling that we're all going 98 00:06:23,396 --> 00:06:26,716 Speaker 1: through something on our streets together. I think we will 99 00:06:26,756 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 1: want more public having been so radically private and privatized 100 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 1: in all of our dealings. That's actually very inspiring, and 101 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:40,196 Speaker 1: I love what you said. Another word you used was resilience, 102 00:06:40,236 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 1: that cities are places of resilience. What if people start leaving. 103 00:06:44,556 --> 00:06:46,676 Speaker 1: My parents live on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, 104 00:06:46,756 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: which I like to refer to as the city that 105 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:52,036 Speaker 1: frequently sleeps, and the New York Times reported using cell 106 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:56,596 Speaker 1: phone data that something like two thirds of the census 107 00:06:56,596 --> 00:07:00,316 Speaker 1: tract in which they live left the city. Now, that's 108 00:07:00,316 --> 00:07:03,196 Speaker 1: an extreme neighborhood. Obviously in many way as a high 109 00:07:03,196 --> 00:07:04,796 Speaker 1: percentage of that people they are can afford to go 110 00:07:04,876 --> 00:07:08,676 Speaker 1: somewhere else. But one wonders if that is the harbinger 111 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:11,116 Speaker 1: of something to come. Do you have the sense that 112 00:07:11,156 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 1: there will be a decline in the population of major 113 00:07:13,596 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 1: cities over time? You rescue that question with the caveat 114 00:07:17,476 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 1: of adding the word major cities. Cities are not all 115 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 1: one thing. I think there may be less attraction in 116 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:31,876 Speaker 1: the near term for incredibly high cost, incredibly dense cities 117 00:07:32,436 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 1: like certain parts of New York. People are talking about 118 00:07:35,996 --> 00:07:40,476 Speaker 1: San Francisco. Whether engineers want to pay the extraordinarily high 119 00:07:40,476 --> 00:07:44,156 Speaker 1: housing costs when if they're working from home, they might 120 00:07:44,196 --> 00:07:47,756 Speaker 1: just as well live happily in Denver or Portland or Austin. 121 00:07:47,956 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 1: Or Boise. I don't think though, that this spells a 122 00:07:52,676 --> 00:07:56,476 Speaker 1: kind of end of cities or even end of big cities, 123 00:07:56,636 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 1: for several reasons. One, cities are incredibly hard to kill. 124 00:08:01,556 --> 00:08:04,316 Speaker 1: You look at a city like Detroit. Detroit's lost more 125 00:08:04,356 --> 00:08:08,796 Speaker 1: than a million people, but it's still actually a viable city. 126 00:08:08,836 --> 00:08:12,036 Speaker 1: It is still actually one of the larger cities in 127 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:16,476 Speaker 1: the United States. And what people are forgetting right now 128 00:08:16,716 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 1: when people are able to work from homework from anywhere, 129 00:08:20,796 --> 00:08:25,036 Speaker 1: is that that's essentially the interest off of the accumulated 130 00:08:25,116 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 1: social capital that was built up through face to face interactions, 131 00:08:30,556 --> 00:08:33,956 Speaker 1: through the random meetings, through running into a colleague in 132 00:08:33,956 --> 00:08:40,276 Speaker 1: the hall. That's not going to be sustainable over the 133 00:08:40,356 --> 00:08:45,036 Speaker 1: course of decades. Also, cities are important labor markets, and 134 00:08:45,276 --> 00:08:48,676 Speaker 1: you'll need a wide number of opportunities for people who 135 00:08:48,876 --> 00:08:52,516 Speaker 1: are in two career households. So it's fine if one 136 00:08:52,556 --> 00:08:54,956 Speaker 1: person in the family is a Facebook engineer and can 137 00:08:54,996 --> 00:08:59,516 Speaker 1: work from anywhere, but her partner may not have the 138 00:08:59,596 --> 00:09:02,076 Speaker 1: same privilege and may need to be back in that 139 00:09:02,116 --> 00:09:04,996 Speaker 1: dense labor market of a San Francisco or a Los 140 00:09:04,996 --> 00:09:07,876 Speaker 1: Angeles or even a Denver or an Austin. So I 141 00:09:07,956 --> 00:09:12,116 Speaker 1: just don't see this trend reversing and turning on its 142 00:09:12,116 --> 00:09:15,036 Speaker 1: head and again, because there are other aspects of cities too. 143 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:19,636 Speaker 1: They're not just places to work, they're places for discovery, delight, 144 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:24,476 Speaker 1: for culture. I'm stunned. You can't keep people out of restaurants. 145 00:09:25,276 --> 00:09:27,996 Speaker 1: I'm blown away by this. Right, people are risking their 146 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:30,876 Speaker 1: health for brunch. So that says to me that there 147 00:09:30,956 --> 00:09:35,716 Speaker 1: is something about cities urbanity, And I don't make a 148 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:38,116 Speaker 1: strong distinction between city and suburb when I say this. 149 00:09:38,996 --> 00:09:41,636 Speaker 1: I just think it's meets so deep a need in 150 00:09:41,676 --> 00:09:45,596 Speaker 1: the human spirit that we will keep finding ways to 151 00:09:45,836 --> 00:09:49,796 Speaker 1: gather like this. I completely share your instinct that it's 152 00:09:50,236 --> 00:09:53,556 Speaker 1: kind of an inspiring fact about the human need for 153 00:09:53,596 --> 00:09:56,116 Speaker 1: social contact that people, as you put it, are risking 154 00:09:56,116 --> 00:09:58,596 Speaker 1: their lives for brunch, which is a great phase. But 155 00:09:58,716 --> 00:10:01,596 Speaker 1: to say that is also to realize that all of 156 00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:04,316 Speaker 1: my public health professional friends, you know, many of whom 157 00:10:04,356 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 1: have been on the show, their responses, it's crazy to 158 00:10:08,036 --> 00:10:10,756 Speaker 1: risk your life for brunch. It's a mistake. What we 159 00:10:10,836 --> 00:10:14,556 Speaker 1: need our firmer regulations and maybe firmer social norms that 160 00:10:14,716 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: make it clear that we shouldn't be doing this. They 161 00:10:16,756 --> 00:10:20,076 Speaker 1: do not think, for the most part that restaurants should 162 00:10:20,076 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: be open for brunch if people will risk their lives 163 00:10:22,276 --> 00:10:25,156 Speaker 1: to go there, and I add it oar, but we 164 00:10:25,196 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 1: will not be in pandemic forever. I recognize that that's 165 00:10:30,876 --> 00:10:33,156 Speaker 1: part of the question, and maybe I should cash out 166 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:37,556 Speaker 1: that question. It's of course possible that this winter will 167 00:10:37,596 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 1: know that there is a vaccine that will work, and 168 00:10:40,116 --> 00:10:43,956 Speaker 1: that's the wonderful best case scenario, you know, Dao SX Machina, 169 00:10:44,036 --> 00:10:46,356 Speaker 1: and we all get back to life. And in that scenario, 170 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more. But there's also a possibility, 171 00:10:49,716 --> 00:10:51,716 Speaker 1: and a lot of the experts seem to think it's 172 00:10:51,796 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 1: a probability that what we'll find then is actually that 173 00:10:54,676 --> 00:10:58,596 Speaker 1: we can't do that, that none of the vaccines really works, 174 00:10:58,716 --> 00:11:00,516 Speaker 1: or that they work somewhat, or that they work for 175 00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:03,556 Speaker 1: younger and healthier people, and that in that scenario, we're 176 00:11:03,596 --> 00:11:06,756 Speaker 1: going to have to start accepting the long term presence 177 00:11:07,516 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 1: of pandemic, not of the that kills everybody all the time, 178 00:11:10,476 --> 00:11:12,716 Speaker 1: but that kills some of the people some of the time. 179 00:11:13,276 --> 00:11:16,356 Speaker 1: And under those circumstances, you can already feel any here. 180 00:11:16,476 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 1: The public health professionals saying we're gonna have to maintain 181 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:23,756 Speaker 1: social distancing for the foreseeable future. What about in that situation, 182 00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:27,916 Speaker 1: I mean, doesn't that pose more fundamental threats to the 183 00:11:27,996 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 1: aspiration to social life that we associate with cities. Yes, 184 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:37,996 Speaker 1: and there are very dense cities that seem to be 185 00:11:38,756 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 1: managing and figuring this out. I think we will change cities, 186 00:11:44,476 --> 00:11:51,036 Speaker 1: but plagues haven't killed cities. The times that we have 187 00:11:52,036 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 1: dramatically reduced our density and shifted our gradient has been 188 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:03,156 Speaker 1: because of enormous public campaigns and massive amounts of subsidies. 189 00:12:03,516 --> 00:12:07,596 Speaker 1: That's when we change the American landscape in the middle 190 00:12:07,596 --> 00:12:14,516 Speaker 1: of the century through the nineties. Absent that combination of 191 00:12:14,556 --> 00:12:19,916 Speaker 1: both significant campaign and massive subsidies, I don't see how 192 00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:22,436 Speaker 1: it will work and where it will come from. And 193 00:12:22,516 --> 00:12:24,716 Speaker 1: this just tells you basically that I'm an urbanist and 194 00:12:24,756 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 1: I'm committed to cities, and I will endeavor to keep 195 00:12:27,876 --> 00:12:30,916 Speaker 1: them strong and safe. But I don't know that my 196 00:12:30,996 --> 00:12:35,476 Speaker 1: life would be necessarily better in a more suburban environment 197 00:12:35,516 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: than it is living in an apartment building in Washington, 198 00:12:38,116 --> 00:12:40,116 Speaker 1: d C. I very much wish I had in unit 199 00:12:40,156 --> 00:12:42,956 Speaker 1: washer dryer, But other than that, I don't see how 200 00:12:42,996 --> 00:12:48,436 Speaker 1: it's better if I'm out in only Maryland. It's a 201 00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:52,076 Speaker 1: hugely important insight that you've written about that the movement 202 00:12:52,076 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: to the suburbs that we associate with the post World 203 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:56,436 Speaker 1: War two period wasn't just some accident, and wasn't just 204 00:12:56,476 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 1: the result of market forces, but was also the result 205 00:12:58,716 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 1: of government policies and subsidies. What I'm wondering is if 206 00:13:02,716 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 1: we might not see over the next three to five 207 00:13:05,076 --> 00:13:11,236 Speaker 1: years a kind of less explicit, but nevertheless present reorientation 208 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:16,356 Speaker 1: of how government officials think about cities, because I think 209 00:13:16,356 --> 00:13:18,996 Speaker 1: a lot of the urbanist picture that you've been describing 210 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:22,116 Speaker 1: has been embraced by lots and lots of public officials 211 00:13:22,276 --> 00:13:24,756 Speaker 1: in the last decade or two. But that seems to 212 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:27,876 Speaker 1: me shapeable and malleable. And if you're a government official 213 00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:30,116 Speaker 1: and you're going to be elected or voted out of 214 00:13:30,116 --> 00:13:33,636 Speaker 1: office based on your COVID numbers, and if you're consistently 215 00:13:33,676 --> 00:13:35,956 Speaker 1: seeing which I'm not saying will be, but imagine consistently 216 00:13:35,956 --> 00:13:38,196 Speaker 1: seeing that it's in your urban areas that you have 217 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:41,956 Speaker 1: the largest amount of COVID cases, it is possible to 218 00:13:41,956 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 1: imagine government officials, I think, saying you know what, let's 219 00:13:45,116 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 1: de emphasize density. Let's not invest in the infrastructure that 220 00:13:48,716 --> 00:13:50,876 Speaker 1: makes density work. Let's not invest more in our public 221 00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:54,276 Speaker 1: transit systems, let's not invest more in bike lanes. I'm 222 00:13:54,276 --> 00:13:55,956 Speaker 1: not saying this will happen, but it does seem like 223 00:13:55,996 --> 00:13:58,236 Speaker 1: there could be that kind of a reorientation of a 224 00:13:58,316 --> 00:14:02,396 Speaker 1: historical type if we get this perception that cities are 225 00:14:02,436 --> 00:14:07,236 Speaker 1: where the virus is fair. That said, if you look 226 00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:12,796 Speaker 1: at the data from the most recent case surges, you're 227 00:14:12,836 --> 00:14:20,476 Speaker 1: not seeing a tight correlation with density. So you're seeing Arizona, Florida, 228 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:24,676 Speaker 1: my home state of Texas. These are not exceptionally dense 229 00:14:24,756 --> 00:14:28,396 Speaker 1: places as the American landscape goes. But aren't we seeing 230 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:31,236 Speaker 1: in those places that the spikes when you break it 231 00:14:31,276 --> 00:14:34,876 Speaker 1: down within those states, are happening in relatively denser parts 232 00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:38,476 Speaker 1: of those states as opposed to the more rural areas. Yeah, exactly, 233 00:14:38,596 --> 00:14:41,156 Speaker 1: or ex urban areas. Yes and no, right, I mean 234 00:14:41,196 --> 00:14:42,756 Speaker 1: there can be You know, you also look at the 235 00:14:42,796 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 1: meatpacking plants, which are dense within the walls but played 236 00:14:47,396 --> 00:14:52,236 Speaker 1: out in a less dense, larger landscape. So the density 237 00:14:52,276 --> 00:14:54,556 Speaker 1: I think that we have to be most worried about 238 00:14:55,116 --> 00:15:00,876 Speaker 1: is essentially household and workplace density as opposed to neighborhood 239 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:06,436 Speaker 1: or city level density. What I would love to see 240 00:15:06,956 --> 00:15:12,396 Speaker 1: is policy focusing on housing and overcrowding so that people 241 00:15:12,796 --> 00:15:18,316 Speaker 1: were not living in dangerous individual unit conditions, that people 242 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:22,756 Speaker 1: who need housing can get housing. Where I would like 243 00:15:22,916 --> 00:15:26,836 Speaker 1: all of this energy to go is in figuring out 244 00:15:27,116 --> 00:15:29,756 Speaker 1: from an epidemiological point of view, from a social point 245 00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 1: of view, from an economic point of view, what do 246 00:15:32,676 --> 00:15:37,436 Speaker 1: we need to do to make density safe. We'll be 247 00:15:37,476 --> 00:15:48,876 Speaker 1: back in a moment, Jennifer. One of the things that 248 00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:54,556 Speaker 1: you spoke about was how cities are networks of support, 249 00:15:54,956 --> 00:15:58,436 Speaker 1: networks of connection, and that in some way they're in 250 00:15:58,476 --> 00:16:03,116 Speaker 1: that sense decentralized. That's a fascinating idea and it's counterintuitive 251 00:16:03,156 --> 00:16:04,876 Speaker 1: to me. So would you say more about that. When 252 00:16:04,916 --> 00:16:07,556 Speaker 1: I think of the city, I think of concentration rather 253 00:16:07,596 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 1: than of diffusing of authority or responsibility. So please explain. 254 00:16:12,636 --> 00:16:18,316 Speaker 1: You see this anecdotally in stories about people caring for 255 00:16:18,356 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 1: their neighbors, right, looking out for somebody down the street 256 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:25,556 Speaker 1: who may be immunocompromised or who may be elderly, and 257 00:16:25,956 --> 00:16:30,436 Speaker 1: bringing them groceries. Right. Those are informal, mutual networks of support. 258 00:16:30,996 --> 00:16:33,196 Speaker 1: You see it in the way that different neighborhoods have 259 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: responded to well intentioned but poorly thought out policy initiatives 260 00:16:38,716 --> 00:16:43,676 Speaker 1: during this time. So, for example, Oakland decided to pedestrianize 261 00:16:43,716 --> 00:16:47,156 Speaker 1: a large amount of streets without thinking about who might 262 00:16:47,316 --> 00:16:50,916 Speaker 1: need those streets for car parking and commuting. So that 263 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:55,156 Speaker 1: was frontline workers in neighborhoods that were predominantly populated by 264 00:16:55,156 --> 00:16:58,156 Speaker 1: people of color, and this notion of safe streets kind 265 00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:02,876 Speaker 1: of imposed was not an appropriate policy response. So neighborhoods 266 00:17:02,996 --> 00:17:06,716 Speaker 1: are organizing to get the kinds of things that they 267 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:11,956 Speaker 1: need during the pandemic and show that they are differentiated 268 00:17:12,316 --> 00:17:14,716 Speaker 1: in a kind of self determining way. And we all 269 00:17:14,756 --> 00:17:18,236 Speaker 1: know that power across the city and power across neighborhoods 270 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:22,276 Speaker 1: is not necessarily evenly distributed, and organizational capacity and interest 271 00:17:22,356 --> 00:17:26,236 Speaker 1: is not necessarily evenly distributed. And I think we're seeing 272 00:17:27,316 --> 00:17:32,396 Speaker 1: those differences in capacity play out and places that have 273 00:17:32,436 --> 00:17:37,436 Speaker 1: not previously been organized organizing more forcefully. Right because your home, 274 00:17:37,596 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 1: you're nearer your neighbors, you can kind of engage with them. 275 00:17:40,196 --> 00:17:43,436 Speaker 1: You are now better able to organize and identify yourself 276 00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:45,556 Speaker 1: and to speak up for yourself. Then I think this 277 00:17:45,596 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 1: will come up more and more as cities have to 278 00:17:48,516 --> 00:17:52,276 Speaker 1: make difficult choices about the distribution of resources during the 279 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:56,956 Speaker 1: next phase, once there is more economic activity. You use 280 00:17:57,036 --> 00:18:00,996 Speaker 1: the phrase DIY urbanism, which is also really fascinating, and 281 00:18:01,036 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 1: I want to hear more about that, because it seems 282 00:18:03,676 --> 00:18:05,716 Speaker 1: to me that a lot of what we've seen during 283 00:18:05,716 --> 00:18:09,956 Speaker 1: this Corona period is municipal governments how us what to do. 284 00:18:10,556 --> 00:18:12,916 Speaker 1: Where I live Cambridge, Massachusetts, which is a weird city, 285 00:18:12,956 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: but it is my city, is the one I grew 286 00:18:14,876 --> 00:18:17,116 Speaker 1: up in and I love it. You know, long before 287 00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:19,796 Speaker 1: the state had a mass coordinance, the city had a 288 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:22,916 Speaker 1: mass coordinance that it was enforcing I think practically not 289 00:18:22,956 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 1: at all. But Cambridge being Cambridge, there was lots of 290 00:18:26,396 --> 00:18:29,116 Speaker 1: moral enforcement from people on the streets. But that was 291 00:18:29,156 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 1: the opposite of do it yourself. It was the government 292 00:18:32,076 --> 00:18:35,076 Speaker 1: does it. When I hear DIY, I imagine sort of 293 00:18:35,116 --> 00:18:39,796 Speaker 1: spontaneously organizing individuals rather than the institutions of the city. 294 00:18:39,796 --> 00:18:41,676 Speaker 1: But maybe that's not what you meant by do it yourself. 295 00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:43,956 Speaker 1: I think you can look at right, so you could 296 00:18:43,996 --> 00:18:48,716 Speaker 1: say that Cambridge decided on its own that it was 297 00:18:48,796 --> 00:18:50,596 Speaker 1: not going to wait for the lead of the state 298 00:18:50,636 --> 00:18:53,516 Speaker 1: of Massachusetts that it had a better understanding of what 299 00:18:53,556 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 1: residents needed. The other DIY urbanism I'm seeing is people 300 00:18:57,316 --> 00:19:01,476 Speaker 1: reclaiming the streets in particular ways, shifting more street space 301 00:19:01,596 --> 00:19:04,916 Speaker 1: to pedestrians as opposed to cars without waiting for an 302 00:19:04,916 --> 00:19:11,156 Speaker 1: official city designation, spontaneous but socially stons gatherings. One could 303 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:15,356 Speaker 1: argue that these protests that have been rolling through the 304 00:19:15,436 --> 00:19:18,236 Speaker 1: month of June and continuing in some cities are also 305 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:23,396 Speaker 1: a kind of reclaiming of public space in a powerful 306 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:28,396 Speaker 1: way that bespeaks a desire to use and shape space, 307 00:19:28,476 --> 00:19:30,756 Speaker 1: even in a pandemic, in a way that responds to 308 00:19:30,956 --> 00:19:35,316 Speaker 1: particular needs. So I think people will continue to use 309 00:19:35,356 --> 00:19:39,276 Speaker 1: the city space to get what they want. People make 310 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:41,636 Speaker 1: the city as they live in it, I guess is 311 00:19:41,676 --> 00:19:45,236 Speaker 1: the point that I'm trying to get at, and I 312 00:19:45,396 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 1: call that DIY urbanism for short. But that's what makes 313 00:19:50,116 --> 00:19:55,156 Speaker 1: cities so fascinating is they're not top down enterprises. So, yes, 314 00:19:55,196 --> 00:19:58,156 Speaker 1: you have the government setting basic rules, you need to 315 00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:01,556 Speaker 1: wear a mask, these businesses will and will not open. 316 00:20:01,996 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 1: This is how commerce is being dictated, and then it's 317 00:20:04,116 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 1: how people use in shape and play with and interrogate 318 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:11,556 Speaker 1: and even subvert those rules that I find interesting and 319 00:20:11,596 --> 00:20:17,316 Speaker 1: compelling and profoundly urban. The Black Lives Matter protests, spurred 320 00:20:17,356 --> 00:20:21,276 Speaker 1: most recently by the killing of George Floyd, are themselves, 321 00:20:21,316 --> 00:20:24,276 Speaker 1: as you were saying, a phenomenon with great implication for urbanism, 322 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:27,396 Speaker 1: and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, both 323 00:20:27,436 --> 00:20:32,236 Speaker 1: about the spontaneous, self organizing, kind of inspiring aspects of 324 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:35,756 Speaker 1: the protests, and also about at the periphery of the 325 00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:40,236 Speaker 1: protests the occasional looting and violence, which has also been 326 00:20:40,276 --> 00:20:42,956 Speaker 1: a recurrent feature of urban life in the United States, 327 00:20:43,276 --> 00:20:45,716 Speaker 1: not just since nineteen sixty eight, but going back even 328 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:49,756 Speaker 1: before them. I look at the Black Lives Matter protests 329 00:20:50,316 --> 00:20:55,516 Speaker 1: as a commentarian, even an indictment about how racialized space 330 00:20:55,876 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 1: is in cities. All spaces Cambridge versus Somerville, DC versus 331 00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:08,236 Speaker 1: Prince George's County have been designated and racialized. And one 332 00:21:08,236 --> 00:21:10,116 Speaker 1: of the things of the interesting to me about the 333 00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:13,756 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter protest is they seem to be places 334 00:21:13,836 --> 00:21:19,236 Speaker 1: of emerging integration in cities. That's interesting to me. What 335 00:21:19,436 --> 00:21:25,036 Speaker 1: will as we play out the Black Lives Matter social 336 00:21:25,316 --> 00:21:32,036 Speaker 1: and political changes what will that mean for city space integration, 337 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:35,956 Speaker 1: Who is welcome on what kinds of streets? Who we 338 00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:39,636 Speaker 1: think of as our neighbors. To me, cities are like, 339 00:21:39,676 --> 00:21:42,756 Speaker 1: it's two thousand years of political philosophy in your zoning code, 340 00:21:42,796 --> 00:21:45,556 Speaker 1: right Like. The cities are where we play out our 341 00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:49,596 Speaker 1: public and private philosophies, including a systemic racism which has 342 00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:52,996 Speaker 1: been an important part of America's political philosophy, which is 343 00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:56,356 Speaker 1: literally encoded in city streets and who gets to use 344 00:21:56,356 --> 00:21:59,436 Speaker 1: them and who feels safe where? So, how is that 345 00:21:59,956 --> 00:22:04,916 Speaker 1: going to change as far as looting and protests goes? 346 00:22:05,276 --> 00:22:07,356 Speaker 1: When you say that, all I can think of is 347 00:22:07,396 --> 00:22:11,916 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenty one Tulsa race massacre. That was looting, right, 348 00:22:12,036 --> 00:22:14,796 Speaker 1: That was looting, and that was violence, and it was 349 00:22:14,916 --> 00:22:20,956 Speaker 1: state sanctioned violence against a rising middle class black population. 350 00:22:21,596 --> 00:22:24,676 Speaker 1: And I think that the disruptions that we're seeing now 351 00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: are a inexcusable and be nothing as compared to the 352 00:22:31,476 --> 00:22:38,756 Speaker 1: kinds of state sanctioned violence, looting, economic disruption, property disruption 353 00:22:39,356 --> 00:22:43,956 Speaker 1: that white people have perpetuated in neighborhoods of color for decades. 354 00:22:44,356 --> 00:22:47,676 Speaker 1: And one of the things that heartened me is that 355 00:22:47,796 --> 00:22:52,436 Speaker 1: many DC white shopkeepers you know whose businesses were vandalized, said, 356 00:22:52,436 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 1: it's property, and I can replace property. And I think 357 00:22:56,516 --> 00:23:03,036 Speaker 1: there is a appropriate understanding that the violence of some 358 00:23:03,676 --> 00:23:08,396 Speaker 1: people who are using the protests as an opportunity doesn't 359 00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:14,556 Speaker 1: invalid the larger undertaking. One last question. Your approach is 360 00:23:15,236 --> 00:23:19,956 Speaker 1: I think measured, thoughtful, and on the whole optimistic. Do 361 00:23:20,476 --> 00:23:22,996 Speaker 1: you have any dark thoughts? I mean, I think the 362 00:23:22,996 --> 00:23:26,196 Speaker 1: structure of our conversation has been my asking dark questions. 363 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,316 Speaker 1: And you're telling me, you know, don't overstate at Feldman. 364 00:23:28,356 --> 00:23:30,116 Speaker 1: You know you're taking it too far, and in fact 365 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 1: that all these good things and they're coming back. And 366 00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:34,916 Speaker 1: I think that's a good and a heartening set of responses. 367 00:23:35,396 --> 00:23:37,316 Speaker 1: But do you have any worries? Maybe different ones than 368 00:23:37,356 --> 00:23:41,636 Speaker 1: I've thought about. I do worry about public transit. New 369 00:23:41,676 --> 00:23:45,236 Speaker 1: York does not work without public transit. There's no way 370 00:23:45,476 --> 00:23:48,316 Speaker 1: that people are going to be able to move about 371 00:23:48,356 --> 00:23:52,076 Speaker 1: in private vehicles at a volume that a place like 372 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:54,636 Speaker 1: New York once. And I do worry a little bit 373 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 1: about temporarily defunding public transit. That I was worried about 374 00:23:58,876 --> 00:24:01,636 Speaker 1: that before. I've been worried about that since people started 375 00:24:01,676 --> 00:24:05,236 Speaker 1: making this argument with autonomous vehicles. I think public transit 376 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:08,876 Speaker 1: is hugely important. My hope is that there is a 377 00:24:09,116 --> 00:24:11,236 Speaker 1: lip and that people say no. Public transit is actually 378 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 1: a public good and it's what frontline workers are using, 379 00:24:14,556 --> 00:24:17,676 Speaker 1: and we need to figure out again how to take 380 00:24:17,716 --> 00:24:20,356 Speaker 1: what we have and make it safe. So that's that's 381 00:24:20,436 --> 00:24:27,436 Speaker 1: one fear. I fear younger people remembering this and having 382 00:24:27,436 --> 00:24:33,116 Speaker 1: a fear associated with being outside. I worry during this 383 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:37,836 Speaker 1: period about loneliness. I have a lot of love in 384 00:24:37,916 --> 00:24:41,036 Speaker 1: my life, but I am going out of my mind. 385 00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:44,236 Speaker 1: I'm desperate to see people, and I worry about As 386 00:24:44,236 --> 00:24:46,116 Speaker 1: I said at the beginning, I do worry about the 387 00:24:46,196 --> 00:24:49,556 Speaker 1: loss of social capital. We're living off the interest of 388 00:24:49,636 --> 00:24:52,476 Speaker 1: all the relationships that we built up face to face. 389 00:24:53,276 --> 00:24:57,636 Speaker 1: How long before we start diving into the principle and 390 00:24:57,676 --> 00:25:04,836 Speaker 1: eroding important nonfamilial relationships because we haven't been able to 391 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:08,956 Speaker 1: tend them face to face. There are just their cues 392 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: that we miss. I worry that this might go on 393 00:25:13,596 --> 00:25:18,276 Speaker 1: long enough that will forget a little bit. Mostly I 394 00:25:18,316 --> 00:25:21,876 Speaker 1: worry about public transportation. Public transporation out of loneliness. Both 395 00:25:21,876 --> 00:25:25,436 Speaker 1: are existential, though inside the different ways. Yeah, But despair 396 00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:28,796 Speaker 1: and optimism and they're so closely braided. Right. So I 397 00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:32,436 Speaker 1: live on the edge of Rock Creek Park and there's 398 00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:36,076 Speaker 1: a little like Parker exercise zone just underneath my apartment, 399 00:25:36,356 --> 00:25:39,596 Speaker 1: and people are just Wow, they're using it. You can't 400 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:42,076 Speaker 1: keep them away from it. It's just body after body 401 00:25:42,076 --> 00:25:44,116 Speaker 1: after body on those things. And I'm like, guys, that's 402 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:47,876 Speaker 1: really a bad idea. But the upside is, Wow, people 403 00:25:47,916 --> 00:25:50,836 Speaker 1: have come to depend on public space and public trails 404 00:25:50,876 --> 00:25:53,996 Speaker 1: and nature and cities more than ever, and much better 405 00:25:53,996 --> 00:25:55,636 Speaker 1: to work out outdoors than to work out in an 406 00:25:55,716 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 1: indoor gym. So is this an opportunity for people to say, Wow, 407 00:25:59,636 --> 00:26:03,156 Speaker 1: we didn't know how much we needed the public realm 408 00:26:03,276 --> 00:26:07,676 Speaker 1: until the private realm shrunk and all these third spaces, 409 00:26:07,756 --> 00:26:11,716 Speaker 1: these spaces that are neither home norfully public, shutdown. So wow, 410 00:26:12,156 --> 00:26:16,396 Speaker 1: let's invest in them. Can we make that connection? Can 411 00:26:16,436 --> 00:26:18,796 Speaker 1: we say we loved these things and we needed them, 412 00:26:18,836 --> 00:26:21,636 Speaker 1: so we want to protect them and continue to love 413 00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 1: them when Washington Sports Club or whatever is open again. Jennifer, 414 00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:29,196 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your thoughtful analysis and for 415 00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:31,356 Speaker 1: your time, and for the amazing work that you've always 416 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,596 Speaker 1: been doing that you're continuing to do. It's more important 417 00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:42,836 Speaker 1: than ever now. Thank you, Thank you. Listening to Jennifer's 418 00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:45,756 Speaker 1: analysis actually made me feel a little bit better about 419 00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:48,076 Speaker 1: the future of urban life in the United States that 420 00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:51,516 Speaker 1: I was feeling going into the conversation. Sure, there will 421 00:26:51,516 --> 00:26:54,516 Speaker 1: be aspects of cities that will change, but as Jennifer 422 00:26:54,556 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 1: points out, the human need to connect socially, which cities serve, 423 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:03,756 Speaker 1: continues even in a pandemic and can evolve and change. 424 00:27:04,396 --> 00:27:08,156 Speaker 1: Humans are resilient. Cities are resilient, They're hard to kill, 425 00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:11,516 Speaker 1: their spaces of creativity, and they give opportunities for us 426 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:14,876 Speaker 1: to come back. What's more, Jennifer points us to what 427 00:27:14,916 --> 00:27:18,036 Speaker 1: she calls a diy urbanism, where cities are taking the 428 00:27:18,156 --> 00:27:21,716 Speaker 1: lead and trying to construct space and experience in ways 429 00:27:21,756 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 1: that will facilitate making us safer and better off. There's 430 00:27:26,516 --> 00:27:28,836 Speaker 1: no question that they're going to be challenges to cities 431 00:27:28,876 --> 00:27:31,796 Speaker 1: in the years ahead, but as Jennifer points out, there 432 00:27:31,796 --> 00:27:34,516 Speaker 1: have been challenges to cities almost since there have been 433 00:27:34,596 --> 00:27:37,996 Speaker 1: cities at all. Every so often, I let the dark 434 00:27:37,996 --> 00:27:40,036 Speaker 1: side of my fears begin to affect the questions that 435 00:27:40,076 --> 00:27:41,956 Speaker 1: I ask on this show. And that's why it's so 436 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:44,436 Speaker 1: good to have a guest like Jennifer who turns me 437 00:27:44,556 --> 00:27:47,396 Speaker 1: right around and points to the optimism that we ought 438 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:49,596 Speaker 1: to have when we think about the capacity of the 439 00:27:49,676 --> 00:27:53,636 Speaker 1: human spirit and a human social interaction to overcome even 440 00:27:53,676 --> 00:27:57,196 Speaker 1: the challenges that we're facing. Right now. We'll be back 441 00:27:57,196 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 1: in a moment and now for our segment that we 442 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:10,916 Speaker 1: call play back, where I choose a recent moment from 443 00:28:10,956 --> 00:28:13,356 Speaker 1: the news, play it back to you and analyze it. 444 00:28:13,916 --> 00:28:18,796 Speaker 1: So here we are. The Supreme Court, including the President's appointees, 445 00:28:19,356 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 1: have declared that he is not above the law. That 446 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:26,716 Speaker 1: was the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi speaking last Thursday about 447 00:28:26,716 --> 00:28:29,956 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court's ruling that the New York District Attorney 448 00:28:30,316 --> 00:28:33,676 Speaker 1: may have access to the president's financial records as part 449 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:37,196 Speaker 1: of a grand jury investigation. At the same time, the 450 00:28:37,276 --> 00:28:41,276 Speaker 1: Supreme Court also held that Congress could not necessarily have 451 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:44,436 Speaker 1: access to the president's tax returns, but potentially would be 452 00:28:44,516 --> 00:28:47,356 Speaker 1: able to get it if it satisfied a new legal standard, 453 00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:51,036 Speaker 1: a test that the Supreme Court laid out. The central 454 00:28:51,076 --> 00:28:54,396 Speaker 1: message of these cases is one the Chief Justice John Roberts, 455 00:28:54,436 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 1: who wrote the opinions in both cases, quoted from the 456 00:28:57,356 --> 00:28:59,716 Speaker 1: most influential Chief Justice in the history of the United 457 00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:04,396 Speaker 1: States until him, that is John Marshall. The president is 458 00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:07,676 Speaker 1: not a king, and therefore the president is not above 459 00:29:07,796 --> 00:29:11,916 Speaker 1: the law. In practical terms, we probably aren't going to 460 00:29:11,956 --> 00:29:15,796 Speaker 1: see Donald Trump's tax returns any time soon, but the 461 00:29:15,836 --> 00:29:20,316 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, per Chief Justice Roberts, vindicated the principle that 462 00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: no person, including the president, is above the law and 463 00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:26,716 Speaker 1: open the door for lots of different kinds of investigations 464 00:29:26,716 --> 00:29:30,516 Speaker 1: of a sitting president, including even criminal investigations at the 465 00:29:30,556 --> 00:29:34,996 Speaker 1: state level. This result is gratifying, but it's important to 466 00:29:35,076 --> 00:29:38,636 Speaker 1: understand that it reflects a process whereby Chief Justice John 467 00:29:38,716 --> 00:29:44,596 Speaker 1: Roberts has truly been transformed. The transformation isn't in Roberts's 468 00:29:44,636 --> 00:29:47,956 Speaker 1: political ideology. Rather, it has to do with the way 469 00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:51,596 Speaker 1: his respect for judicial precedent is interacting with his very 470 00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:55,076 Speaker 1: very strong sense that he must vindicate the rule of 471 00:29:55,156 --> 00:29:58,996 Speaker 1: law in his job of Chief Justice of the United States. 472 00:30:00,076 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 1: Roberts started his time as Chief Justice being prepared to 473 00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: defer to Donald Trump, including in the Trump vy. Hawaii case. 474 00:30:07,116 --> 00:30:10,516 Speaker 1: Since then, little by little, it has increasingly taken on 475 00:30:10,596 --> 00:30:14,756 Speaker 1: the role of holding Trump to account. Robert said he 476 00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:18,396 Speaker 1: was deeply influenced by the President of Chief Justice John Marshall, 477 00:30:18,716 --> 00:30:21,316 Speaker 1: a precedent laid down in a case involving, believe it 478 00:30:21,396 --> 00:30:24,716 Speaker 1: or not, the treason trial of Aaron Burr, the same 479 00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:28,636 Speaker 1: man who shot and killed Alexander Hamilton and subsequently led 480 00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:31,196 Speaker 1: a conspiracy to try to start a new country carved 481 00:30:31,196 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 1: out of part of the western part of the United States. 482 00:30:33,636 --> 00:30:37,596 Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson was the president, and he wanted to prosecute Burr. Marshall, 483 00:30:37,596 --> 00:30:40,876 Speaker 1: who didn't like Jefferson, stood up to Jefferson. He demanded 484 00:30:40,916 --> 00:30:43,556 Speaker 1: that Jefferson satisfy the terms of a subpoena that Burr 485 00:30:43,596 --> 00:30:46,596 Speaker 1: sought in his own defense, namely that the President of 486 00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:50,276 Speaker 1: the United States provide documents to the court that Jefferson 487 00:30:50,356 --> 00:30:54,516 Speaker 1: had quoted in his message to Congress condemning Burr. The 488 00:30:54,556 --> 00:30:57,796 Speaker 1: takeaway of this precedent for Roberts was that the courts 489 00:30:58,196 --> 00:31:01,756 Speaker 1: must be able to stand up to the president. Without that, 490 00:31:02,076 --> 00:31:04,756 Speaker 1: the president would not be subject to the rule of law. 491 00:31:05,716 --> 00:31:07,996 Speaker 1: That same principle of standing up for the rule of 492 00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:10,636 Speaker 1: law and the power of the courts was also present 493 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:14,556 Speaker 1: in Roberts's decision earlier this term to preserve Dhaka and 494 00:31:14,676 --> 00:31:17,596 Speaker 1: not to allow Donald Trump to rescind it without meeting 495 00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:21,276 Speaker 1: the necessary procedures. The upshot of this is that although 496 00:31:21,316 --> 00:31:23,716 Speaker 1: John Roberts has not been reborn as a liberal, he 497 00:31:23,796 --> 00:31:26,916 Speaker 1: has been reborn as a Chief Justice, fully willing to 498 00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:31,196 Speaker 1: provide the deciding vote alongside liberals on the Court to 499 00:31:31,196 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 1: hold Donald Trump accountable to the rule of law and 500 00:31:34,636 --> 00:31:37,436 Speaker 1: to assure the principle that the President is no different 501 00:31:37,436 --> 00:31:40,236 Speaker 1: than anybody else when it comes to confronting the rule 502 00:31:40,316 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 1: of law. At the same time, Roberts is demonstrating his 503 00:31:43,596 --> 00:31:46,276 Speaker 1: long standing concern that the Supreme Court not be seen 504 00:31:46,476 --> 00:31:51,436 Speaker 1: as partisan political and indeed, by crossing party lines, Roberts 505 00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:55,796 Speaker 1: has demonstrated that in his own case definitively and for 506 00:31:55,836 --> 00:32:00,916 Speaker 1: the historical record, Robert's transformation has been little short of extraordinary, 507 00:32:01,116 --> 00:32:03,676 Speaker 1: and I promise to return to it in a future episode. 508 00:32:04,236 --> 00:32:06,516 Speaker 1: Until the next time I speak to you, be careful, 509 00:32:06,796 --> 00:32:10,676 Speaker 1: be safe, and be well. Deep background is brought to 510 00:32:10,716 --> 00:32:14,156 Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Jane Cott, 511 00:32:14,276 --> 00:32:18,436 Speaker 1: with mastering by Jason Gambrell and Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner 512 00:32:18,476 --> 00:32:21,596 Speaker 1: is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed by Luis 513 00:32:21,676 --> 00:32:25,996 Speaker 1: Gera special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, 514 00:32:26,036 --> 00:32:29,556 Speaker 1: and Mia Loebell. I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a 515 00:32:29,596 --> 00:32:32,356 Speaker 1: regular column for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at 516 00:32:32,396 --> 00:32:37,236 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate 517 00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:41,956 Speaker 1: of podcasts, go to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. And 518 00:32:42,076 --> 00:32:44,356 Speaker 1: one last thing. I just wrote a book called The 519 00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:47,596 Speaker 1: Arab Winter Patragedy. I would be delighted if you checked 520 00:32:47,596 --> 00:32:50,876 Speaker 1: it out. If you liked what you heard today, please 521 00:32:50,876 --> 00:32:53,876 Speaker 1: write a review or tell a friend. You can always 522 00:32:53,916 --> 00:32:55,956 Speaker 1: let me know what you think on Twitter. My handle 523 00:32:56,116 --> 00:32:59,556 Speaker 1: is Noah R. Feldman. This is deep background