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Speaker 1: Pushkin, System of a Down's classic Rick Rubin produced album

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Speaker 1: Toxicity turns twenty this year. Released in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 1: one week before nine eleven, the politically charged and wildly

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Speaker 1: bizarre nature of Toxicity provided the perfect soundtrack for a

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Speaker 1: world descending into chaos and the river and water after

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Speaker 1: the swimming through the mine, we hear the word search Tonkin,

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Speaker 1: the lead singer System, is no stranger to conflict. His

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Speaker 1: families Armenian and migrated to la from Lebanon to escape

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Speaker 1: a civil war when Surge was seven years old. In

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles, he grew up in a tight knit Armenian

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Speaker 1: community along with the rest of his younger System bandmates.

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Speaker 1: As Surgeon's star began to rise in the late nineties,

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Speaker 1: his activism intensified, and to this day, he continues to

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Speaker 1: raise awareness around the Armenian genocide and the impact of

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Speaker 1: corporate greed. Last month, he released the documentary Truth to Power,

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Speaker 1: which documents the intersection of Serge's work as a musician

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Speaker 1: and an activist. Today we'll hear Rick Ruman talked to

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Speaker 1: his good friend's Surge about how hearing bombs drop outside

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Speaker 1: his childhood bedroom turned him into a lifelong activist. Surge

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Speaker 1: also explains how a pretty odd and funny line about

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Speaker 1: a tapeworm almost caused System of a Down to break up,

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Speaker 1: and why the first time Tomorello of Rage against the

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Speaker 1: Machine hurt System Play. He called it music for crazy people.

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Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age.

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and searche Tonkian. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we start by talking about the movie. How did the

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Speaker 1: movie come about? So the idea originally was in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 1: We're you know, two elevens, the year that System of

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Speaker 1: a Down started touring again after years of hiatus, and

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Speaker 1: I knew I was going to have an incredibly busy

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Speaker 1: professional year. I was touring with System of a Down,

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Speaker 1: touring with my backup BANDFCC, doing orchestral shows with different

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Speaker 1: orchestras around the world, going to Armenia protest movements like,

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Speaker 1: doing all this crazy. That year I knew was going

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Speaker 1: to be insane in terms of work. So I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I should put on a camera on

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Speaker 1: my head like a GoPro and spyglasses and have someone

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Speaker 1: following me the whole time, and let's record everything. And

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Speaker 1: I did but I realized watching the footage after a

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Speaker 1: while that, you know, the idea of a POV film

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Speaker 1: of an artist looking behind the scenes is interesting if

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Speaker 1: the artists can keep their heads still. But my head

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Speaker 1: was like a bird like. It was impossible to watch

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Speaker 1: and what is the meaning of all these experiences? Anyway?

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Speaker 1: There was no narrative, no written theme or script or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. So a friend of mine and I

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Speaker 1: were discussing this, and I had the drives of all

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Speaker 1: the footage, and he's like, what are we really trying

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Speaker 1: to say? What do you what's the story you want

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Speaker 1: to tell? And after discussing, you know, system of a

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Speaker 1: down music art and all of this, it turned out,

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Speaker 1: I mean, to me, the most interesting story was that

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Speaker 1: of the activist in me, and how before music and

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Speaker 1: before the success of the band, no small thanks to you,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had a smaller voice, and then with

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Speaker 1: the success of the band, my voice became more pronounced,

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Speaker 1: and that had its ramifications as well as the fruits

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Speaker 1: of that labors in terms of seeing things come into fruition.

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Speaker 1: When did you first feel the desire to participate in

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Speaker 1: the culture in this way as an activist? I was

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Speaker 1: a teenager Rick and my grandfather, all my grandparents were

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Speaker 1: survivors of the Armenian genocide, and their stories were very powerful,

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Speaker 1: you know, how they saw their family parish and how

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Speaker 1: they survived, and yet the US government hadn't formally recognized

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Speaker 1: the Armenian Genocide. And for me, it was like, why

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Speaker 1: are we living with this hypocrisy in a democracy where

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Speaker 1: the government hasn't properly recognized the truth of history of

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Speaker 1: what's happened to my people. And to me, that instantly

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Speaker 1: made me an activist because I realized that there are

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Speaker 1: so many other truths out there that are being denied

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Speaker 1: for political expediency, economic purposes, or for whatever reason. That's

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Speaker 1: what it was, So I was an activist before becoming

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Speaker 1: an artist. Yeah, it's an interesting way in and the

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Speaker 1: point you make about so much of what we're told

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Speaker 1: it's not true. You know, it's like there's always a

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Speaker 1: narrative that's for our whole lives. We've been presented these

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Speaker 1: series of narratives and the history books that we were

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Speaker 1: given as kids, probably you know, ninety percent of what's

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Speaker 1: in them is not really true. It's a crazy revelation

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Speaker 1: to have. Yeah, but it's interesting that you took that

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Speaker 1: information and wanted to do something about it. I almost

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Speaker 1: have the opposite feeling. It's like I don't want to

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Speaker 1: do anything, like I just I accept that we're not

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Speaker 1: being told what's going on. That's that's very interesting. And

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Speaker 1: I have that feeling too sometimes, Rick, because you get overwhelmed,

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Speaker 1: you know, on that end, and when you do, you're

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Speaker 1: just like, I just want a musical project to jump

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Speaker 1: into so I can lose myself in it and not

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Speaker 1: think about all these worldly things, so I could just

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Speaker 1: be an artist and be free again, and then I

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Speaker 1: can gain that battery energy and love energy and then

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Speaker 1: come back and fight a good fight. Beautiful. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: because also I feel like the fact that you're taking

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Speaker 1: action there is some belief in you that you can

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Speaker 1: change something. And that's awesome, thanks brother. But you've changed

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Speaker 1: a lot of things yourself, you know, in different ways though,

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Speaker 1: and not on purpose, you know. Never it has never

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Speaker 1: happened through wanting to change anything. It's always happened just

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Speaker 1: through wanting to make something good and then something changes

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Speaker 1: in reaction to it. But it's never been the goal

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Speaker 1: to change anything, I don't think. But isn't that what

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Speaker 1: it is? Like your vision, whatever that vision is, and

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Speaker 1: you're following it properly, and you're you're you're being in

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Speaker 1: tune with it, which I know you've always been, at

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Speaker 1: least as far as I know. On you makes that change,

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Speaker 1: whether it's music or or having artists that you work

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Speaker 1: with feeling incredibly comfortable to create the best of what

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Speaker 1: they create. I mean, that's it's a very unique gift

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Speaker 1: that you know that I'm grateful that you've shared with us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: cool man, Let's talk about music a little bit. First

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Speaker 1: varience of music in your life? What do you remember?

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Speaker 1: First experience of music in my life would be my

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Speaker 1: dad singing in the house. My dad had a wonderful,

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Speaker 1: beautiful voice, still does, and loved singing musician, but not professionally,

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Speaker 1: and because his dad died when he was really young,

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Speaker 1: and he didn't think he could make a living doing music,

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Speaker 1: and so he became a designer, shoe designer and studied

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Speaker 1: in Milan and got into that business. But he would

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Speaker 1: sing at home a lot. And in fact, the song

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Speaker 1: that we show in the film that I sing with

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Speaker 1: my dad, the song about the Stork, is a song

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Speaker 1: that could be the first song I ever heard when

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Speaker 1: I was really young and him singing it, and I

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Speaker 1: would try to harmonize with him and sing with him.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's the first musical memory that I

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Speaker 1: have as a kid. Did your family speak Armenian in

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Speaker 1: the house or English predominantly Armenian? Interesting, So would you

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Speaker 1: say Armenian would be your first language? Sort of wow,

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Speaker 1: I never knew that. Yeah. So I was born in Lebanon,

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Speaker 1: and I was seven when we came over during the

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Speaker 1: Lebanese Civil War and still spoke Armenian. Went to a

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Speaker 1: private Armenian school here in Hollywood. I knew a little

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Speaker 1: English when I was a kid, but you know, I

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Speaker 1: learned it mostly in Los Angeles. And it's funny because

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Speaker 1: when you're bilingual or multilingual, I think you always think

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Speaker 1: in your first language, and that can change over time.

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Speaker 1: So now when I speak Armenian, I'm actually thinking in

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Speaker 1: English and speaking in Armenian, whereas before I used to

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Speaker 1: think in Armenian and speak in English when I was younger.

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Speaker 1: Really interesting. It also makes sense for some of your

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Speaker 1: lyrical choices have always been While it's always poetic, sometimes

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Speaker 1: the choice of the order of some of the words

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Speaker 1: is like it's it's unusual, and I'm wondering if that

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Speaker 1: comes from it being a second language. Very likely. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that reminds me. I remember people because when we were

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Speaker 1: doing our first record, you were talking to me about

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Speaker 1: certain miracle stanzas and don't ever get like, don't ever

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Speaker 1: get stuck in this sky. And you told me, well,

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Speaker 1: whatever you're on, whether it's pot or whatever, aren't you

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Speaker 1: supposed to be in this? Guy Like you were like

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Speaker 1: going yeah, But I'm like, yeah, but the way I

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Speaker 1: see it is don't ever get stuck in the sky

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Speaker 1: because it's too good, like that kind of a thing.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, I know what you're saying. It's a

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Speaker 1: kind of different way of seeing things. It's a different perspective,

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Speaker 1: I guess. Interesting. So cool. It's fascinating because we know

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Speaker 1: each other so well to talk about this stuff. Just

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Speaker 1: really interesting, it is. Do you remember your first experience

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Speaker 1: of Western music of like popular music. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: what's the first popular or Western music, but I do

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Speaker 1: remember the first records that I ever bought, and I

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Speaker 1: was probably seven or eight years old. Columbia House had

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Speaker 1: the you know, the club where you could join and

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Speaker 1: you get like five or six finals for free and

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Speaker 1: then you had to buy one a year or two

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Speaker 1: a year. I forgot what it was, and I remember

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Speaker 1: being really excited about it and getting those first five records,

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Speaker 1: you know, I want to say. I mean it was

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Speaker 1: seventy probably seventy six or seventy seven, right, So Rick

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Speaker 1: James was in there, which was also at the time

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Speaker 1: Barbara Streisan and Barry Gibb Guilty. Like I think about

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Speaker 1: seven eight records that first year. What else was in there?

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Speaker 1: Not a lot of rock, maybe Chuck Mangione or something

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Speaker 1: like that, trumpet player, just different things whatever as a

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Speaker 1: kid that I had heard from my uncle or someone play.

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Speaker 1: My uncle really loves Stevie Wonder. He would play stev

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Speaker 1: Wonder when we were living with them when we first

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Speaker 1: came to the States. And a lot of soul. I

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Speaker 1: remember a lot of soul from the seventies and disco obviously. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember living in Lebanon as a kid. I

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Speaker 1: have specific visual memories, almost like snapshots, because I was young.

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Speaker 1: So I remember my grandparents house where that was our house,

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Speaker 1: and our little backyard where we used to play. I

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Speaker 1: remember my school, our school that we went to, and

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Speaker 1: a couple of others like the beach and a couple

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Speaker 1: of sceneries, and then I remember the war, and what

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Speaker 1: I remember about the war is in the war I

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Speaker 1: just started. I remember ducking in our bedroom with my

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Speaker 1: brother because of the bombs falling, and school was closed,

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Speaker 1: and that really made a huge impression on me as

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Speaker 1: a child, which translated into my activism as an adult,

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Speaker 1: because you know, when we were making that song Boom

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Speaker 1: and Michael Moore directed the video. If you remember, I

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Speaker 1: still can't get the feeling out that dropping bombs is

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Speaker 1: literally on the other side of being If hearing those

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Speaker 1: bombs drops, it's a terrorizing feeling. Hearing bombs drop. They

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Speaker 1: feel random and they terrorize the population. And if you've

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Speaker 1: ever been in that situation of hearing bombs drop, you'd

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Speaker 1: be very reluctant to order your own government or anyone

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Speaker 1: to do that to anyone else. How quickly were you

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Speaker 1: able to leave when that started? Your family? We were lucky.

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Speaker 1: My dad was already planning on us migrating to the

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Speaker 1: to the US and had done paperwork ahead of time,

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Speaker 1: so we weren't We didn't know obviously before the war started,

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Speaker 1: and so we were lucky. We were We got out

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Speaker 1: pretty early. How long does that process take typically, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't know years, I would assume because he yeah, he

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Speaker 1: had a brother in the you know, my uncle lived

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Speaker 1: in New York and so I think he came visited him,

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Speaker 1: started our paperwork in terms of you know, immigration, and

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Speaker 1: then and then the war broke out. It became more difficult,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it just my dad had to come

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Speaker 1: six months after us. We had to come here with

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Speaker 1: our mom and my dad followed us six months after.

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Speaker 1: Was it only Ourmenians that were targeted? Oh no, No,

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Speaker 1: I mean Ourmenians weren't specifically targeted. It was a whole

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Speaker 1: civil war between you know, there were the Christian Phalunge movement,

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Speaker 1: there were the Shiite movement, and there were the Sunnis.

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Speaker 1: And it was just complete sectarian war, each supported by

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Speaker 1: different you know, proxy nations from outside. And it was

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Speaker 1: it was a mess and it's still a mess now

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Speaker 1: after that huge bomb that went off last year. And

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Speaker 1: I have a friend there, and the banking system is

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Speaker 1: all frozen up. I mean, people with money can't even

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Speaker 1: get you know, they can only get a thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: a month out of their bank account, even if they

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Speaker 1: have a lot of money. I mean, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of you know, COVID's bad and you know from what

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Speaker 1: I hear, I've only been to Lebanon once since we

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Speaker 1: left as a kid in twenty eleven, the year that

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Speaker 1: I decided to shoot everything that I was you know, experiencing,

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Speaker 1: and I took my parents back and they were older

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Speaker 1: when they moved. You know, my brother and I were

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Speaker 1: like four and seven, but they were in their thirties

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Speaker 1: when they moved. So for them it was a very

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Speaker 1: prolific kind of you know, experience going back. How don't

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Speaker 1: I don't know whether the word is tight or cohesive?

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Speaker 1: Was the Armenian experience in Los Angeles. There are a

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Speaker 1: lot of Armenians in Los Angeles, probably the second largest

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Speaker 1: diasporan community outside of Armenia. Russia would probably be the first,

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Speaker 1: but it's quite close. Those are the two largest UM

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Speaker 1: communities UM. And that's very interesting to you politically for me,

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Speaker 1: because you've got you know, a lot of Armenians in

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Speaker 1: the Russian sphere and then you've got a lot of

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Speaker 1: Armenians here on polar opposite side of the political spectrum,

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Speaker 1: you know, between those two nations. But the community, it

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Speaker 1: got bigger over the years. When I came there, there

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Speaker 1: were there were a number of Armenians. It wasn't as

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Speaker 1: big as there is now, like Glendale or Hollywood, but

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Speaker 1: it was nice, you know, having the you know, especially

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Speaker 1: when you're just learning the language. It's nice having people

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Speaker 1: from your culture around to kind of guide you and

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Speaker 1: you know, especially as a kid. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: we were in mainstream you know, American culture and growing

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Speaker 1: up in Los Angeles with all all that. I remember.

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Speaker 1: I remember we lived in Hollywood in the mid seventies, right,

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Speaker 1: and we used to walk to school in Hollywood, you

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Speaker 1: colorful Hollywood pimps and hookers and all this stuff happening

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Speaker 1: in My parents they didn't even, you know, wonder whether

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Speaker 1: we were safe or not. They're like, yeah, grab your

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Speaker 1: brother's hand and walked to school. I was like seven

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Speaker 1: to eight. He was like fun. And now I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: I would never let my kid walk up the street

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Speaker 1: in Hollywood, you know or whatever. But like at the

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Speaker 1: time it was it was more laxed, I guess, and

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Speaker 1: maybe the violence wasn't as pronounced as it is now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: does California feel like home? Like if you think of

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Speaker 1: home California. Look, majority of my friends and family are

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, so you know, I feel comfortable here,

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Speaker 1: but it does feel more like an office than a

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Speaker 1: home to me. I remember hearing you talk to Ferrell

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Speaker 1: on the show. I'm a fan of the you Know

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Speaker 1: Broken Record podcast and I've been listening to it for

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Speaker 1: a while and that really hit home for me because

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Speaker 1: I feel more at home in New Zealand, lived there

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Speaker 1: part of the year, got residency years ago, have a

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Speaker 1: nice place there I'm thankful for and but and here

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's more I do have a lot

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Speaker 1: of friends and family, but it feels more of a

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Speaker 1: rat race it is. You know, would you say that

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Speaker 1: politics were part of system of a down from the beginning?

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Speaker 1: I guess so. I mean, you know, a band is

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Speaker 1: you know a good band. I think that creates interesting

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Speaker 1: music is always going to be a push and pull

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Speaker 1: of different personalities and different agendas. I think when you

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Speaker 1: have everyone on one page doing one thing, that's cool

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Speaker 1: because that makes things simpler. But I think the music

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Speaker 1: is probably is not as interesting. And our band is

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Speaker 1: like that. We're we're for distinct personalities with distinct ways

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Speaker 1: of doing things, and the political was more my thing

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Speaker 1: because I was an activist before becoming an artist, and

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Speaker 1: luckily I had these guys in my band that would

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Speaker 1: kind of make me go, Okay, you're going too far.

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Speaker 1: And that's good because, you know, unless the whole thing's

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Speaker 1: got to be political like rage, which is awesome because

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Speaker 1: that's what they agreed upon, and I think that's amazing.

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Speaker 1: But System was never just political, as you well know,

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Speaker 1: but it was always there, you know. And and it's

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Speaker 1: not just me, to be honest, the specifically there and

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Speaker 1: I think also has a lot of ideas more social

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Speaker 1: than necessarily political, but also challenging the social fabric of

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Speaker 1: society some of the hypocrisies that are, you know. So

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Speaker 1: I think it was definitely in our DNA as a

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Speaker 1: band from the beginning. We'll be right back with more

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Speaker 1: from Surge Tonkian and Rick Rubin. After a quick break,

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Speaker 1: we're back with more from Searge Tonkian. What was the

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Speaker 1: scene that System was born into, Like, what was going

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Speaker 1: on in LA at the time that you guys started

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00:17:59,556 --> 00:18:03,036
Speaker 1: when we started radio wasn't playing our kind of music? Definitely,

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Speaker 1: we kind of We're in this warehouse in North Hollywood

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Speaker 1: doing our own thing. Not knowing what was going on

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Speaker 1: in the musical world outside of us. It was very

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Speaker 1: incubated in that sense. And when we first started playing

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Speaker 1: on the scene, like the Rocksy and Whiskey were primarily

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Speaker 1: opening up for you know, anything from an industrial band

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Speaker 1: to other heavy bands out of Los Angeles or Santa Barbara.

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Speaker 1: We had this band Snot that we used to play

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Speaker 1: around town with a lot, and you know, they were

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Speaker 1: very much hardcore slash punk kind of band, and we

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Speaker 1: gravitated because we have definitely a lot of punk ethos

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Speaker 1: to our metally type of rock music and it kind

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Speaker 1: of really fit. But we didn't know what scene we

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Speaker 1: were a part of until later we were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's Corn and Deft Tones, there's this new metal scene

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Speaker 1: coming out of Los Angeles. And then lucky for us,

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Speaker 1: as we started working together, radio switched formats like literally

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Speaker 1: at that time. I always say, as hard as you

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Speaker 1: work and as creative as you can try to be,

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00:19:09,196 --> 00:19:11,916
Speaker 1: there's definitely a matter of a little matter of luck

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Speaker 1: as well to kind of land in the right place

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Speaker 1: at the right time. Absolutely, and so that's what was

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Speaker 1: going on. Ki Rock wasn't playing our type of music

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00:19:18,596 --> 00:19:21,516
Speaker 1: when we started they switched right when we were about

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Speaker 1: to get that second record out. Not only was ki

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Speaker 1: Rock not playing your sort of music after they switched,

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00:19:30,156 --> 00:19:35,196
Speaker 1: and after they were playing hard music. The program director said,

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00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:38,796
Speaker 1: when hearing System were down, this is a band that

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00:19:38,836 --> 00:19:42,596
Speaker 1: we will never play on our station ever. I remember

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00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:45,476
Speaker 1: that when the first album came out, Yeah, we will

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00:19:45,636 --> 00:19:49,076
Speaker 1: never play this band. And then one year later, System

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Speaker 1: was the number one requested band on the station. Isn't

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00:19:52,156 --> 00:19:55,516
Speaker 1: that amazing? And look, I you know again, I'm not

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00:19:55,556 --> 00:20:00,036
Speaker 1: on your show to do wax poetic on you, but honestly,

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00:20:00,116 --> 00:20:02,356
Speaker 1: like you know, if it wasn't for your support in

345
00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:05,516
Speaker 1: those first years of being out there was no radio

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00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:09,916
Speaker 1: support and touring opening for Slayer, one of your it

347
00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:14,156
Speaker 1: was amazing, like just building that, you know, foundation for

348
00:20:14,196 --> 00:20:17,196
Speaker 1: a band, going on tour, playing Europe, getting shit thrown

349
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Speaker 1: at from this layer crowd and learning how to handle

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00:20:19,396 --> 00:20:22,476
Speaker 1: an audience and boot camp, you know, proper boot camp

351
00:20:22,516 --> 00:20:25,676
Speaker 1: as as as artists on the road, and that really

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00:20:25,716 --> 00:20:28,156
Speaker 1: built us so that when the second record came and

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Speaker 1: we did and radio did switch format, so we were

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Speaker 1: ready and we actually had a base, So it wasn't

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Speaker 1: some radio band you're introducing into you know, the community.

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00:20:38,276 --> 00:20:42,036
Speaker 1: You know, instead you had this plethora of fans wanting

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00:20:42,076 --> 00:20:44,556
Speaker 1: to hear the music, and that was that really kicked

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00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:47,676
Speaker 1: in properly. Yeah, and it really all happened naturally. We

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00:20:47,956 --> 00:20:50,676
Speaker 1: can't say any of that was actually planned. The only

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Speaker 1: plan was to make something really good and stick to it,

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Speaker 1: you know, like make something great. And whoever was interested

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00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:00,716
Speaker 1: in this great thing we made, we wanted them to

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00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:02,916
Speaker 1: find out about it. I don't think there was ever

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00:21:02,996 --> 00:21:05,596
Speaker 1: the idea of converting people who don't like it to

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00:21:05,716 --> 00:21:08,676
Speaker 1: like it. I remember, you know, our friend Tamarrella. The

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Speaker 1: first time I played it for him, He's like, this

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00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:13,796
Speaker 1: is crazy person's music. This is music for crazy people.

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Speaker 1: It's like it was just so on the fringe at

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Speaker 1: the time. And still I feel like, still it holds

370
00:21:21,236 --> 00:21:26,116
Speaker 1: up in how extreme and ridiculous it is, but we

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00:21:26,236 --> 00:21:29,716
Speaker 1: get more used to it because it's gotten popular. If

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Speaker 1: you if you took away the popularity, it's it's really crazy.

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Speaker 1: It is, it really is. Tom said he was with

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Speaker 1: you that first day you saw us at the Viper room.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Yeah, Tom was with us. I

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00:21:42,796 --> 00:21:45,076
Speaker 1: didn't remember that. And when I was talking to him,

377
00:21:45,116 --> 00:21:47,756
Speaker 1: recently he was like, oh yeah, I was there, and

378
00:21:47,796 --> 00:21:51,916
Speaker 1: I told Greg, this is nuts, this is crazy. But

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00:21:51,996 --> 00:21:53,796
Speaker 1: it was really fun. And I just as as I've

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Speaker 1: told you before, I just remember laughing the whole show.

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Speaker 1: You were laughing. I remember seeing you sitting on one

382
00:22:00,236 --> 00:22:02,636
Speaker 1: of those booths, you know, up on top of the

383
00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:04,396
Speaker 1: booth because there were so many heads in the audience

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00:22:04,436 --> 00:22:07,196
Speaker 1: and viper rooms a tiny place, and I just remember

385
00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:10,556
Speaker 1: seeing you laughing and I and it's a positive encouragement that,

386
00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:13,796
Speaker 1: you know, it's like, that's cool. It was super power.

387
00:22:13,916 --> 00:22:17,476
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a positive It's a funny thing

388
00:22:17,796 --> 00:22:25,276
Speaker 1: doing you know, kind of screaming somewhat questionable lyrics and

389
00:22:25,316 --> 00:22:30,036
Speaker 1: how that can be interpreted as this positive like unity experience.

390
00:22:30,076 --> 00:22:32,236
Speaker 1: And it was, you know, it really was. It felt

391
00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:35,956
Speaker 1: like there was great solidarity in the audience. People were

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00:22:35,996 --> 00:22:38,756
Speaker 1: getting what they needed at that show, and the band

393
00:22:38,836 --> 00:22:41,876
Speaker 1: was just great. That was fun. I remember talking to

394
00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:45,516
Speaker 1: you after we went outside and we were so enthused

395
00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:47,876
Speaker 1: that you were there, bro, like so excited. If you

396
00:22:47,916 --> 00:22:50,276
Speaker 1: look at System of a Down it's an established band

397
00:22:50,316 --> 00:22:52,716
Speaker 1: now and whatnot. But like you said, it was this

398
00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:56,396
Speaker 1: crazy man's music just going off and these weird lyrics.

399
00:22:56,436 --> 00:22:58,996
Speaker 1: I might have even had a distortion pedal feeding back

400
00:22:59,036 --> 00:23:01,716
Speaker 1: on stage, which is like, who the fuck wants to

401
00:23:01,756 --> 00:23:04,596
Speaker 1: sign that? Right? Like you know, and here you are

402
00:23:04,676 --> 00:23:08,436
Speaker 1: checking us out And I remember, oh, guy Siri Ambino

403
00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:11,396
Speaker 1: were friends. So guy at called saying, oh, Rick's coming,

404
00:23:11,436 --> 00:23:13,756
Speaker 1: but we're running late or something, and we're like, we

405
00:23:13,836 --> 00:23:16,396
Speaker 1: looked at we gotta we gotta delay the show, like

406
00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:20,876
Speaker 1: we gotta Were you guys wearing paint? I don't remember

407
00:23:21,196 --> 00:23:23,716
Speaker 1: were we I don't. I can't remember either. It's it's

408
00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:25,636
Speaker 1: all a blur, but I mean i've seen you guys

409
00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:29,316
Speaker 1: wear When did when did that start? The uh the paint?

410
00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:32,716
Speaker 1: That's a good question. It was early on obviously, um

411
00:23:32,836 --> 00:23:35,716
Speaker 1: and and it was very much Darren and Shovel were

412
00:23:35,796 --> 00:23:38,156
Speaker 1: huge Kiss fans, and they were really into the whole

413
00:23:38,556 --> 00:23:43,596
Speaker 1: makeup and craziness and colorfulness of that and uh, you know,

414
00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:47,716
Speaker 1: so I that was their influence completely, And it was

415
00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:49,716
Speaker 1: pretty early on. I don't know if it was from

416
00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:51,996
Speaker 1: the first show or not, I mean first you know,

417
00:23:52,716 --> 00:23:54,956
Speaker 1: uh run of shows on the strip or not. It

418
00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:58,596
Speaker 1: felt more tribal than it did like Kiss, like what

419
00:23:58,756 --> 00:24:04,636
Speaker 1: I saw mine tribal. Yeah, but I remember also like

420
00:24:04,716 --> 00:24:09,396
Speaker 1: the what looked like Armenian folk dancing while playing these

421
00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:13,356
Speaker 1: essentially heavy metal songs. Yeah, I mean that's what it is.

422
00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:15,476
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's kind of the sound of System

423
00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:18,836
Speaker 1: of a down that it brings our kind of filtered

424
00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:25,516
Speaker 1: Armenian experience into heavy music in a way that doesn't

425
00:24:25,516 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 1: copy either and just kind of becomes its own thing.

426
00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:34,516
Speaker 1: That includes rhythms that includes weird solos and whatnot, and harmonies.

427
00:24:34,676 --> 00:24:36,996
Speaker 1: I feel like the harmonies really feel like they're rooted

428
00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:40,196
Speaker 1: in They don't sound like the harmonies that you hear

429
00:24:40,316 --> 00:24:44,556
Speaker 1: in any other hard music. It does feel like it's

430
00:24:44,636 --> 00:24:47,876
Speaker 1: rooted in an ancient folk. Yeah, a lot of thirds

431
00:24:47,956 --> 00:24:51,156
Speaker 1: like Greek and Armenian Mediterranean harmonies. Yeah, Darren and I

432
00:24:51,316 --> 00:24:54,716
Speaker 1: for sure. And in our voice really match. Our ranges

433
00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:57,156
Speaker 1: and our voice really match in a very unique way.

434
00:24:57,156 --> 00:25:00,116
Speaker 1: And that's that was from day one. You know, before System,

435
00:25:00,116 --> 00:25:01,916
Speaker 1: we used to have a band called Soil, which was

436
00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:06,356
Speaker 1: way more progressive and nutty, like just kind of how

437
00:25:06,396 --> 00:25:09,876
Speaker 1: can it be way more progressive? What does that sound like?

438
00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:15,676
Speaker 1: Almost unlistenable? Like no, not unlistenable, but it was it

439
00:25:15,756 --> 00:25:18,636
Speaker 1: was just think of every System song but being more

440
00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:22,356
Speaker 1: just crazier, like not crazier, but how do I say it?

441
00:25:22,636 --> 00:25:25,316
Speaker 1: Less pop format? Right? In terms of the format, it

442
00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:27,396
Speaker 1: was just go on and on. But it was a

443
00:25:27,436 --> 00:25:29,516
Speaker 1: good learning experience. It was the first time I had

444
00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:31,836
Speaker 1: ever sang in a band, and that was eight months.

445
00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:33,756
Speaker 1: The whole band was just around. We had one show

446
00:25:34,076 --> 00:25:38,596
Speaker 1: where Darren fell off the stage and he struck and

447
00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:43,156
Speaker 1: he still does that, so, uh, you know, it was

448
00:25:43,196 --> 00:25:45,916
Speaker 1: It was interesting, but that was good experience because I

449
00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:47,756
Speaker 1: didn't know what I was doing as a vocalist. I mean,

450
00:25:47,836 --> 00:25:50,716
Speaker 1: for me, it was always trying to make a sound

451
00:25:50,876 --> 00:25:54,836
Speaker 1: with my voice. To me, singing was two different separate things,

452
00:25:55,156 --> 00:25:57,756
Speaker 1: trying to get the words in there, and sometimes there

453
00:25:57,756 --> 00:25:59,156
Speaker 1: were a lot of words, and I had to get

454
00:25:59,196 --> 00:26:01,636
Speaker 1: him in there because as a as a as someone

455
00:26:01,636 --> 00:26:03,876
Speaker 1: who wrote poetry, it was important to get the words

456
00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:06,156
Speaker 1: in there. So I wasn't thinking does this sound right

457
00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:08,996
Speaker 1: to someone singing. I was more like, I gotta get

458
00:26:08,996 --> 00:26:11,356
Speaker 1: the words in there. It doesn't matter how fast I

459
00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:16,276
Speaker 1: go with right and two to try to make sounds

460
00:26:16,276 --> 00:26:18,316
Speaker 1: with a voice like it's a guitar or a synth

461
00:26:18,436 --> 00:26:22,596
Speaker 1: or something like that. Very dada as kind of interpretation. Um,

462
00:26:22,876 --> 00:26:25,716
Speaker 1: and also create relationships between things that don't have a

463
00:26:25,756 --> 00:26:29,276
Speaker 1: pre existing relationship with each other, whether it's musical parts

464
00:26:29,676 --> 00:26:32,676
Speaker 1: going from one part to another, or lyrical words that

465
00:26:32,716 --> 00:26:36,396
Speaker 1: don't belong together. Terracotta pie, you know, banana terracotta pi?

466
00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,396
Speaker 1: What the fuck is that? Right? Um, we still don't

467
00:26:39,396 --> 00:26:42,116
Speaker 1: know what that is? But how did I talk about

468
00:26:42,236 --> 00:26:44,956
Speaker 1: banana terracotta pie? You had to get the words in?

469
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:47,916
Speaker 1: Tell me how did you decide those are the words

470
00:26:47,916 --> 00:26:50,716
Speaker 1: you had to get in? I don't remember. I remember

471
00:26:50,716 --> 00:26:53,396
Speaker 1: writing the song on acoustic guitar and just kind of

472
00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:57,036
Speaker 1: playing it fast and and just trying to you know,

473
00:26:57,076 --> 00:27:00,556
Speaker 1: I was trying to sing whatever I was playing, and

474
00:27:00,676 --> 00:27:03,636
Speaker 1: I was just like banana. But we turned out to

475
00:27:03,676 --> 00:27:06,756
Speaker 1: be banana terracotta Da da da da da terracotta terracota pi.

476
00:27:07,116 --> 00:27:10,116
Speaker 1: And I remember, dude, I remember our first reaction when

477
00:27:10,116 --> 00:27:11,996
Speaker 1: we were working on that song. On the demos of

478
00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:16,596
Speaker 1: that song, You're just like, what is that like? It

479
00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:18,716
Speaker 1: was like, it wasn't a compliment. You were just like,

480
00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:21,836
Speaker 1: I don't know what this is like. But once we

481
00:27:21,836 --> 00:27:24,756
Speaker 1: were done with it, you're like, yeah, this is really good.

482
00:27:24,796 --> 00:27:26,756
Speaker 1: We have to keep it. This is really and I

483
00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:30,436
Speaker 1: found that to be interesting because it's challenging. Some of

484
00:27:30,436 --> 00:27:34,996
Speaker 1: it is challenging. I think you know all of it.

485
00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:37,116
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I learned so much about

486
00:27:37,196 --> 00:27:40,516
Speaker 1: music working with you guys, because it was so far

487
00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:46,556
Speaker 1: out and broke so many accepted rules, and the mission

488
00:27:46,676 --> 00:27:50,076
Speaker 1: was okay, taking into account it's going to break these rules,

489
00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:54,516
Speaker 1: how do we still achieve What's something that we could

490
00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:57,436
Speaker 1: listen to and have this like I don't want to

491
00:27:57,436 --> 00:28:01,076
Speaker 1: call it accessibility because it's not. It's by nature it's

492
00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:05,476
Speaker 1: not understandable. So how can we present it where it's

493
00:28:05,516 --> 00:28:10,196
Speaker 1: the most understandable while retaining that it never be understood.

494
00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:15,796
Speaker 1: That was like there was like a quantum theory formula

495
00:28:15,916 --> 00:28:18,716
Speaker 1: right there. It was that was our work. That was

496
00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:21,156
Speaker 1: our work. But I also learned a lot from you.

497
00:28:21,196 --> 00:28:23,836
Speaker 1: I still to this day brow when I do vocals,

498
00:28:24,356 --> 00:28:27,436
Speaker 1: I hear you in my head going pronounce it better,

499
00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:32,556
Speaker 1: pronounce it better. It's like, don't you those words? Pronounce

500
00:28:32,676 --> 00:28:34,556
Speaker 1: it better? I mean there's times where you want to

501
00:28:34,596 --> 00:28:37,596
Speaker 1: throw away words, you know. But yeah, a lot a

502
00:28:37,636 --> 00:28:40,396
Speaker 1: lot in terms of how you hear things. And I

503
00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:44,836
Speaker 1: love how you basically eat music and then interpret it

504
00:28:44,916 --> 00:28:48,516
Speaker 1: from almost a fans' perspective as a producer, really get

505
00:28:48,556 --> 00:28:50,836
Speaker 1: into it and love it, love it, love it, and

506
00:28:50,876 --> 00:28:53,796
Speaker 1: then know what the best thing about it is kind

507
00:28:53,796 --> 00:28:58,556
Speaker 1: of you narrow it down to that one strong foundation

508
00:28:59,076 --> 00:29:01,356
Speaker 1: and then you want to hear that more or or

509
00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:04,436
Speaker 1: you give ideas where that's more pronounced, and I think

510
00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:07,636
Speaker 1: that's really special. Yeah, it's I definitely into the idea

511
00:29:07,636 --> 00:29:12,236
Speaker 1: of like putting a focus on the thing that speaks

512
00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:15,396
Speaker 1: the most, and because it can, it can get lost.

513
00:29:15,716 --> 00:29:18,356
Speaker 1: So the job is to like think about where the

514
00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:22,236
Speaker 1: spotlight is shining while all these things are going on

515
00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:24,556
Speaker 1: at the same time. How do we keep this this

516
00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:27,316
Speaker 1: one aspect and focus when we need to, and then

517
00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:30,076
Speaker 1: how to and when to switch the focus to this

518
00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:33,836
Speaker 1: other thing to focus on and giving everything its turn.

519
00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:38,876
Speaker 1: Talk about the the the vocal phrasing in the verses

520
00:29:38,876 --> 00:29:43,396
Speaker 1: of Chop Suey, wake up Greg, you know, just kind

521
00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:48,196
Speaker 1: of going with that neurotic kind of you know, attacky

522
00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:51,756
Speaker 1: music and stop the it's the pauses that make it interesting,

523
00:29:51,956 --> 00:29:53,956
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's hard to do live because I

524
00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,756
Speaker 1: literally have to listen to John so I could be

525
00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:00,676
Speaker 1: syncopated with him, and he looks at my body motion,

526
00:30:00,756 --> 00:30:03,036
Speaker 1: so I try to go left and right so he

527
00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:05,036
Speaker 1: knows like it's kind of like we have to be

528
00:30:05,076 --> 00:30:07,636
Speaker 1: on the same page. I don't know. I don't know

529
00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:11,516
Speaker 1: how that came about. It's it's probably my naivete going

530
00:30:11,796 --> 00:30:12,956
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. He or so I'm

531
00:30:12,996 --> 00:30:15,876
Speaker 1: gonna do exactly what the guitars are doing. But how

532
00:30:15,916 --> 00:30:18,676
Speaker 1: did you and I remember us talking about it and

533
00:30:18,756 --> 00:30:21,716
Speaker 1: I didn't understand it at the time, about you doing

534
00:30:21,876 --> 00:30:30,076
Speaker 1: like the responses also, yeah, the whispered responses, yes, which

535
00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:34,196
Speaker 1: sounds so creepy. Yeah, I don't know. I you know, again,

536
00:30:34,236 --> 00:30:36,236
Speaker 1: I don't remember. It's you know, it's been quite a

537
00:30:36,316 --> 00:30:38,676
Speaker 1: number of years, a couple of decades, right, but hey,

538
00:30:38,876 --> 00:30:43,236
Speaker 1: congratulations because toxicity or I want to say, was it Chopsuy?

539
00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:46,596
Speaker 1: I think Chopsuy was voted by Metal Hammer best Metal

540
00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:50,876
Speaker 1: song of the twentieth century. Wow. Yeah that's good, big accolade.

541
00:30:51,236 --> 00:30:54,756
Speaker 1: Wow Yeah, yeah, incredible. I never studied singing. I had

542
00:30:54,756 --> 00:30:56,876
Speaker 1: no idea what I was doing. So for me, it

543
00:30:56,916 --> 00:30:59,316
Speaker 1: was a sound and if the guitars can do it,

544
00:30:59,356 --> 00:31:01,396
Speaker 1: then my voice can do it, you know. So I

545
00:31:01,476 --> 00:31:04,556
Speaker 1: was trying to match that, which is irregular. I mean,

546
00:31:04,636 --> 00:31:06,996
Speaker 1: someone who's learned how to sing is never gonna do

547
00:31:07,036 --> 00:31:10,116
Speaker 1: that knowing they can't properly repeat it every day, every night,

548
00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:13,436
Speaker 1: which is a pain in the butt, right. But I

549
00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:18,196
Speaker 1: think that's what's beautiful about art and about exploration, about

550
00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 1: not being a you know, walking into something and just

551
00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:27,196
Speaker 1: being creative, not knowing, not having previous experiences of it,

552
00:31:27,396 --> 00:31:30,956
Speaker 1: because I think that exploratory nature can really lead to

553
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:34,356
Speaker 1: something new. It's the reason I started painting a number

554
00:31:34,356 --> 00:31:36,716
Speaker 1: of years ago, because again I didn't know what I

555
00:31:36,796 --> 00:31:39,036
Speaker 1: was doing. I got into it, and I feel that

556
00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:43,956
Speaker 1: same kind of feeling of lost and losing time and

557
00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:46,516
Speaker 1: just doing something without knowing what the results are going

558
00:31:46,596 --> 00:31:49,796
Speaker 1: to be, and that kind of what I felt when

559
00:31:49,836 --> 00:31:53,116
Speaker 1: I first started doing music. Amazing. I want to talk

560
00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:55,476
Speaker 1: a little more about lyrics, just because it's such a

561
00:31:56,476 --> 00:31:59,876
Speaker 1: interesting part of what you do. I love the way

562
00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:02,916
Speaker 1: you sing, but the lyrics of this whole other thing,

563
00:32:02,996 --> 00:32:08,436
Speaker 1: it's like, it's radical. Do you remember the drama over

564
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:17,716
Speaker 1: the tapeworm song? Yes? How can I? How can I

565
00:32:17,716 --> 00:32:21,956
Speaker 1: forget that? Okay? So originally the song the chorus was

566
00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:26,276
Speaker 1: pulled a tapeworm out of my ass right as I recall, yes,

567
00:32:26,836 --> 00:32:31,956
Speaker 1: Darren in Shabo didn't like my ass right. They were like, no, no, no,

568
00:32:31,996 --> 00:32:35,836
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound cool, that sounds bad, that sounds vulnerable

569
00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:38,356
Speaker 1: or whatever it was, you know, whatever word you want

570
00:32:38,356 --> 00:32:41,956
Speaker 1: to use as an adjective. And I'm like, you know,

571
00:32:42,036 --> 00:32:44,196
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is philosophical, like, you know,

572
00:32:44,716 --> 00:32:47,076
Speaker 1: take this negativity out of me or whatever at the

573
00:32:47,076 --> 00:32:51,916
Speaker 1: time I was trying to portray, and they're like, no, no, no, no,

574
00:32:51,956 --> 00:32:53,516
Speaker 1: that's not cool. We don't want to be in a

575
00:32:53,596 --> 00:32:56,756
Speaker 1: band where it's your you know, Like it seemed like

576
00:32:56,836 --> 00:33:00,076
Speaker 1: the band could have broke up over the lyric, like

577
00:33:00,156 --> 00:33:04,396
Speaker 1: it was so extreme. Yeah, but it talked. It speaks

578
00:33:04,436 --> 00:33:08,636
Speaker 1: to the passion in the band, like there's real passion.

579
00:33:09,516 --> 00:33:14,156
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I mean, the fact that a lyric, an insignificant,

580
00:33:14,436 --> 00:33:21,636
Speaker 1: one word and arguably comical line totally is enough to

581
00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:26,076
Speaker 1: potentially break up a band or or discard a great song.

582
00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:29,236
Speaker 1: There was another possibility. It's like, well that song just

583
00:33:29,276 --> 00:33:31,356
Speaker 1: goes away and all we have to do is change

584
00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:35,116
Speaker 1: it to your out of your ass, it might became

585
00:33:35,196 --> 00:33:38,116
Speaker 1: your And then in the middle part where I'm singing

586
00:33:38,196 --> 00:33:40,796
Speaker 1: nicely pull the taproom out of me. They were okay

587
00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:43,676
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, And it's really beautiful. When you get

588
00:33:43,716 --> 00:33:46,676
Speaker 1: to that, it's like you're you're part of the you

589
00:33:46,796 --> 00:33:49,556
Speaker 1: become part of the community. It's like it goes from

590
00:33:49,596 --> 00:33:55,956
Speaker 1: this ass taproom community. Yeah, it's like like you you, you, you, you,

591
00:33:56,356 --> 00:34:00,956
Speaker 1: and then me. Well, I'm curious from your point of view,

592
00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:04,076
Speaker 1: since you were there and you saw that, like, what

593
00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:07,036
Speaker 1: was your reaction? You probably thought these guys are fucking

594
00:34:07,116 --> 00:34:10,116
Speaker 1: nuts there. It's like number one is one word, and

595
00:34:10,596 --> 00:34:13,596
Speaker 1: what the why are they arguing over this? It wasn't

596
00:34:13,636 --> 00:34:15,916
Speaker 1: obvious that it was one word. That was like when

597
00:34:16,276 --> 00:34:21,156
Speaker 1: when that got decoded, when we realized it wasn't pull

598
00:34:21,236 --> 00:34:24,876
Speaker 1: the tapeworm ass problem. When we realized it was pulled

599
00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:29,396
Speaker 1: the tapeworm out of my ass problem, and that when

600
00:34:29,396 --> 00:34:33,916
Speaker 1: you said my ass, it represented everybody in the band's ass,

601
00:34:34,596 --> 00:34:38,556
Speaker 1: and everybody wasn't comfortable with that. And now you know

602
00:34:38,596 --> 00:34:41,236
Speaker 1: you could essentially be saying pull the tapeworm out of

603
00:34:41,276 --> 00:34:44,596
Speaker 1: your ass to the rest of the band, right, and

604
00:34:44,636 --> 00:34:50,956
Speaker 1: they're okay with it. It's fascinating. I don't think you've

605
00:34:50,956 --> 00:34:54,676
Speaker 1: done any Broken Record podcasts and use the word ass

606
00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:59,716
Speaker 1: in so many minutes at all. We broke a record today.

607
00:34:59,956 --> 00:35:03,636
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's funny. I mean with all of

608
00:35:03,676 --> 00:35:06,276
Speaker 1: the like you know, prison song with like all that

609
00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:10,036
Speaker 1: stuff that's written and very kind of essay form. And

610
00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:13,356
Speaker 1: we didn't have any arguments about that, but that one

611
00:35:13,796 --> 00:35:16,436
Speaker 1: tape where you know it's and it's funny. The other

612
00:35:16,436 --> 00:35:19,036
Speaker 1: thing about it is that it's clearly funny. We were

613
00:35:19,036 --> 00:35:21,076
Speaker 1: all pretty stout and you are laughing the whole time.

614
00:35:21,116 --> 00:35:23,996
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was funny. But yes, it does have

615
00:35:24,116 --> 00:35:27,036
Speaker 1: like a bigger meaning I understand, but they weren't upset

616
00:35:27,076 --> 00:35:29,956
Speaker 1: with the bigger meaning. It was purely the language and

617
00:35:29,996 --> 00:35:33,156
Speaker 1: it's and it was a very funny line. It's kind

618
00:35:33,196 --> 00:35:36,156
Speaker 1: of funny because I think it's the metal attitude versus

619
00:35:36,156 --> 00:35:39,476
Speaker 1: the non metal attitude as well. So for me, I

620
00:35:39,516 --> 00:35:42,996
Speaker 1: like showing vulnerability in our music and whatever I do.

621
00:35:43,036 --> 00:35:46,076
Speaker 1: I don't mind showing it because I think as an artist,

622
00:35:46,356 --> 00:35:49,636
Speaker 1: you're vulnerable either way, you either show it or you don't. Yeah,

623
00:35:49,676 --> 00:35:52,996
Speaker 1: you know, but the metal attitude, there is no way, dude, like,

624
00:35:53,116 --> 00:35:55,876
Speaker 1: you know, no way we're metal, right, you know, you

625
00:35:55,916 --> 00:35:58,356
Speaker 1: can't show a vulnerability, you know. That kind of a thing.

626
00:35:58,396 --> 00:36:00,316
Speaker 1: I think That's what it was. More than anything else.

627
00:36:00,596 --> 00:36:02,996
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a way in the future to

628
00:36:03,276 --> 00:36:06,996
Speaker 1: lean into exactly what you're saying and the fact that

629
00:36:07,036 --> 00:36:09,596
Speaker 1: there's that difference. And when I think of the example

630
00:36:09,636 --> 00:36:14,036
Speaker 1: you talk about prison song and the way the chorus works,

631
00:36:14,436 --> 00:36:19,596
Speaker 1: pushing little children with their fully automatics semi automatic, that's

632
00:36:19,636 --> 00:36:21,836
Speaker 1: that's not the prison song. The prison song is they

633
00:36:21,876 --> 00:36:26,916
Speaker 1: tried to build a prison. Confused pushing little child. I

634
00:36:26,996 --> 00:36:30,916
Speaker 1: never know titles ever, I forget myself. What are the lines?

635
00:36:30,996 --> 00:36:34,316
Speaker 1: Pushing little children with their fully automatics. They like to

636
00:36:34,356 --> 00:36:38,396
Speaker 1: push the week around? Right, So you're singing that from

637
00:36:38,436 --> 00:36:43,356
Speaker 1: this place of compassion or your compassion makes you angry.

638
00:36:43,876 --> 00:36:50,476
Speaker 1: And Darren's character joins in for pushed a week around

639
00:36:50,556 --> 00:36:57,196
Speaker 1: and he so he's doing the authoritarian side of the story.

640
00:36:58,236 --> 00:37:02,036
Speaker 1: And like you said earlier, the thing that makes a

641
00:37:02,076 --> 00:37:06,236
Speaker 1: band great is those difference. It's not it's not everybody

642
00:37:06,316 --> 00:37:09,836
Speaker 1: unified on the same message. It's those different messages and

643
00:37:09,916 --> 00:37:11,996
Speaker 1: how they bump up against each other to make something

644
00:37:12,196 --> 00:37:15,596
Speaker 1: really interesting. I'd never thought of it this way before

645
00:37:15,676 --> 00:37:19,956
Speaker 1: until we were having this conversation, But it's an interesting dichotomy.

646
00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:22,636
Speaker 1: The reason you said prison song. Is that same thing

647
00:37:22,716 --> 00:37:25,916
Speaker 1: exists in there because Darren comes in with what was it,

648
00:37:26,156 --> 00:37:28,396
Speaker 1: I buy my crack, I smack my bitch right here

649
00:37:28,396 --> 00:37:32,916
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, which is playing into the negativity, yes, where

650
00:37:32,996 --> 00:37:36,076
Speaker 1: the lyrics are talking about the injustice of the you know,

651
00:37:36,196 --> 00:37:39,796
Speaker 1: three strike law, the prison system, the racist policies that endure,

652
00:37:40,356 --> 00:37:43,276
Speaker 1: and he comes in as the guy like, yes he

653
00:37:43,356 --> 00:37:48,396
Speaker 1: doesn't the foil, Yeah, blast off, you know, it's party time.

654
00:37:48,436 --> 00:37:51,796
Speaker 1: We don't live in a fascist nation whatever. Like it's

655
00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:55,556
Speaker 1: it's a character kind of portrayal back and forth, which

656
00:37:55,556 --> 00:37:57,036
Speaker 1: is interesting. I never even thought of it this way

657
00:37:57,116 --> 00:37:58,956
Speaker 1: until you just brought it up right now. Yeah, same,

658
00:37:59,036 --> 00:38:01,876
Speaker 1: The same thing existed in Public Enemy, where Chuck d

659
00:38:02,116 --> 00:38:06,236
Speaker 1: was always really serious and Flavor. Flavor was the foil,

660
00:38:06,396 --> 00:38:08,756
Speaker 1: and sometimes he was the comic foil. But sometimes it

661
00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:13,956
Speaker 1: was like a different point of view, like calm down, Chuck,

662
00:38:14,236 --> 00:38:16,356
Speaker 1: you know, like sometime it was it was just like

663
00:38:16,396 --> 00:38:22,156
Speaker 1: another perspective. Yeah, and together it was It's like, I

664
00:38:22,276 --> 00:38:25,836
Speaker 1: don't know that Public Enemy would have done what it

665
00:38:25,876 --> 00:38:31,436
Speaker 1: did without the foil. It made it less finger shaking,

666
00:38:32,476 --> 00:38:35,636
Speaker 1: you know, totally, and people people don't like having finger

667
00:38:35,676 --> 00:38:38,556
Speaker 1: shakeed at them nobody, even if even if they like

668
00:38:38,716 --> 00:38:41,236
Speaker 1: what you're saying, they don't like that. No, you know,

669
00:38:41,396 --> 00:38:43,996
Speaker 1: I think you either have to make them dance, you

670
00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:46,676
Speaker 1: have to make them laugh. I've realized this doing this

671
00:38:46,716 --> 00:38:49,916
Speaker 1: for a few decades or so, is you have to

672
00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:54,836
Speaker 1: entertain while you get that message out, because otherwise, you know,

673
00:38:54,876 --> 00:38:57,596
Speaker 1: you're just giving a speech and that's not very exciting

674
00:38:57,956 --> 00:39:00,276
Speaker 1: and it's not going to get very far. I say

675
00:39:00,276 --> 00:39:03,036
Speaker 1: it in the movie. It's like in the twenty fifteen

676
00:39:03,036 --> 00:39:05,356
Speaker 1: when we played Armenia for the first time, those words

677
00:39:05,676 --> 00:39:07,876
Speaker 1: came out of me where I said what I needed

678
00:39:07,916 --> 00:39:09,956
Speaker 1: to say politically on stage age and then I said,

679
00:39:10,156 --> 00:39:11,956
Speaker 1: we're here to tell you the truth and rock you

680
00:39:12,036 --> 00:39:14,756
Speaker 1: at the same time. And I think that's the magic. Yeah,

681
00:39:14,836 --> 00:39:19,516
Speaker 1: it's interesting also how you could lyrically have deadly serious

682
00:39:19,636 --> 00:39:24,236
Speaker 1: lyrics right next to really zany wacky lyrics and make

683
00:39:24,276 --> 00:39:28,276
Speaker 1: it work. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, it's the other esque Verry

684
00:39:28,396 --> 00:39:32,036
Speaker 1: Zappo esque, and you know it is cool again. I

685
00:39:32,156 --> 00:39:34,836
Speaker 1: like that kind of I think Darren does too. I

686
00:39:34,916 --> 00:39:38,956
Speaker 1: think that's where we get along creatively, is finding relationships

687
00:39:38,996 --> 00:39:43,876
Speaker 1: between things that don't have a common relationship, Like wow,

688
00:39:43,916 --> 00:39:46,076
Speaker 1: if we can make these two things work together. We've

689
00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:49,676
Speaker 1: never heard that before. That's really interesting experiment and take

690
00:39:49,716 --> 00:39:52,596
Speaker 1: it to the next level. I'm gonna take a quick break,

691
00:39:52,916 --> 00:39:59,636
Speaker 1: but we're back with more from Searge Donkian. We're back

692
00:39:59,676 --> 00:40:03,476
Speaker 1: with the rest of Rick's conversation with Searge Tonkian. Let's

693
00:40:03,476 --> 00:40:07,996
Speaker 1: talk about the three years between the first album and Toxicity.

694
00:40:08,076 --> 00:40:11,796
Speaker 1: What that ride was like, touring, touring, touring. I remember

695
00:40:12,076 --> 00:40:14,676
Speaker 1: the only radio we even had on the first record

696
00:40:14,916 --> 00:40:18,796
Speaker 1: was Jed the Fish played Sugar on his specialty show

697
00:40:19,276 --> 00:40:20,876
Speaker 1: and I got to hear it in the car and

698
00:40:20,916 --> 00:40:23,116
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, dream come true. I heard our

699
00:40:23,316 --> 00:40:25,476
Speaker 1: song on the radio kind of thing. But there was

700
00:40:25,556 --> 00:40:29,196
Speaker 1: not a lot of radio on the first record, and

701
00:40:29,276 --> 00:40:31,396
Speaker 1: it was a lot of touring. We were on tour

702
00:40:31,476 --> 00:40:35,196
Speaker 1: with Slayer in Europe and then the US, and then

703
00:40:35,316 --> 00:40:38,236
Speaker 1: we did a bunch of os Fests shows and a

704
00:40:38,276 --> 00:40:42,036
Speaker 1: bunch of other shows, small, you know shows, and just

705
00:40:42,116 --> 00:40:44,996
Speaker 1: getting out there for people to really experience our music,

706
00:40:45,076 --> 00:40:48,676
Speaker 1: opening for bands and kind of doing the dou That's

707
00:40:48,756 --> 00:40:52,996
Speaker 1: that's the foundation, and I remember those those days. They

708
00:40:53,036 --> 00:40:55,436
Speaker 1: were not easy because you know, we're traveling in you

709
00:40:55,436 --> 00:40:58,036
Speaker 1: know ur vs that broke down that in the middle

710
00:40:58,036 --> 00:41:00,076
Speaker 1: of the night, we had to climb fences and find

711
00:41:00,436 --> 00:41:03,036
Speaker 1: a phone. There were no cell phones at the time,

712
00:41:03,076 --> 00:41:05,516
Speaker 1: and there were a lot of tough times, but we

713
00:41:05,556 --> 00:41:08,436
Speaker 1: remember them fondly because that was the beginning of this

714
00:41:08,476 --> 00:41:12,196
Speaker 1: whole incredible experience. I remember at one point, you know,

715
00:41:12,236 --> 00:41:14,876
Speaker 1: we were we were in an RV and John would

716
00:41:14,996 --> 00:41:17,996
Speaker 1: drive a lot because he was responsible. You didn't want

717
00:41:18,036 --> 00:41:22,716
Speaker 1: Darren driving. Shaba would drive. He was he was good. Um,

718
00:41:22,756 --> 00:41:25,436
Speaker 1: but I remember Darren and I were sleeping on this

719
00:41:25,636 --> 00:41:29,036
Speaker 1: RV bed and I guess we were about to hit

720
00:41:29,116 --> 00:41:31,716
Speaker 1: something and John must have slammed on the brakes and

721
00:41:31,756 --> 00:41:34,156
Speaker 1: I remember Darren grabbing me. I was flying in the air,

722
00:41:34,356 --> 00:41:37,676
Speaker 1: he just grabbing me. You know, there's just these incredible

723
00:41:38,036 --> 00:41:42,676
Speaker 1: experienced experiences that you can't forget. Funny ones, crazy ones

724
00:41:42,796 --> 00:41:45,956
Speaker 1: talk about Slayer's audience a little bit. What was Slayer's audience, Like,

725
00:41:46,316 --> 00:41:52,316
Speaker 1: oh my god, so I know that Alison Chains is

726
00:41:52,436 --> 00:41:55,156
Speaker 1: opened for Slayer. All these bands have opened for Slayer,

727
00:41:55,156 --> 00:41:59,636
Speaker 1: and their their audience just hate everyone but Slayer. Right, everyone,

728
00:41:59,716 --> 00:42:02,836
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter whether you're rock or And that was

729
00:42:02,876 --> 00:42:06,236
Speaker 1: the phase where we were like makeup. Darren had his

730
00:42:06,316 --> 00:42:10,236
Speaker 1: little like glam toys on him, and it was it

731
00:42:10,276 --> 00:42:12,356
Speaker 1: was the worst thing you could do to Slayer fans.

732
00:42:12,356 --> 00:42:14,316
Speaker 1: It was like it was just like you were getting

733
00:42:14,356 --> 00:42:16,716
Speaker 1: ready for them to kill you. I remember at one

734
00:42:16,836 --> 00:42:21,756
Speaker 1: point we started we started a show with Sweepee, which

735
00:42:21,756 --> 00:42:25,236
Speaker 1: is a heavy song but funny and funky. We got

736
00:42:25,276 --> 00:42:29,436
Speaker 1: booed and I remember Darren going, oh, you liked that song,

737
00:42:29,556 --> 00:42:31,876
Speaker 1: We're gonna play it again, and we played it again.

738
00:42:32,516 --> 00:42:35,196
Speaker 1: It was like we were learning how to take the

739
00:42:35,276 --> 00:42:38,156
Speaker 1: attitude and and you know, not to get upset and

740
00:42:38,516 --> 00:42:42,116
Speaker 1: have fun with it. I remember playing in Poland and

741
00:42:42,396 --> 00:42:44,956
Speaker 1: we were being killed by these coins. They were throwing

742
00:42:44,956 --> 00:42:49,196
Speaker 1: coins at us as we were performing because because there

743
00:42:49,276 --> 00:42:53,316
Speaker 1: was another band, the Polish death metal band that played

744
00:42:53,436 --> 00:42:56,236
Speaker 1: after us, and we were the direct support. Who are

745
00:42:56,276 --> 00:42:59,236
Speaker 1: these fucking clowns to, you know, get a better position

746
00:42:59,396 --> 00:43:01,956
Speaker 1: and you know, before Slayer than And of course we

747
00:43:01,956 --> 00:43:04,596
Speaker 1: were on tour with Slayer the whole time, and so

748
00:43:04,636 --> 00:43:07,356
Speaker 1: we were getting pelted and at one point, and this

749
00:43:07,436 --> 00:43:11,196
Speaker 1: is like must have been ninety nine, so it wasn't

750
00:43:11,236 --> 00:43:13,596
Speaker 1: far back that Poland was part of the Soviet Union

751
00:43:13,756 --> 00:43:16,196
Speaker 1: and they were like Swasti because there was like shit

752
00:43:16,276 --> 00:43:18,716
Speaker 1: going on right, like crazy shit, like they were threatening

753
00:43:18,836 --> 00:43:20,996
Speaker 1: us and all this stuff, pelting us. And at one

754
00:43:21,036 --> 00:43:23,596
Speaker 1: point I got so angry I told the lighting guy

755
00:43:23,636 --> 00:43:25,996
Speaker 1: to turn the lights on the audience. I saw the

756
00:43:26,036 --> 00:43:29,076
Speaker 1: guy that pelted me last, and I just started cussing

757
00:43:29,076 --> 00:43:31,196
Speaker 1: at him and yelling at him. With the lights on

758
00:43:31,236 --> 00:43:34,876
Speaker 1: the audience, Rick, you could have heard a pin drop.

759
00:43:35,276 --> 00:43:39,156
Speaker 1: Everyone went silent. It's the scariest thing I've ever seen

760
00:43:39,196 --> 00:43:44,956
Speaker 1: on tour because I exercised authority. Wow, and authority was

761
00:43:45,036 --> 00:43:48,796
Speaker 1: something that they had just gotten out of. And when

762
00:43:48,796 --> 00:43:52,596
Speaker 1: I exercised that authority from stage, they froze and it's

763
00:43:52,596 --> 00:43:54,916
Speaker 1: scared the shit at him. Me and I go okay,

764
00:43:54,956 --> 00:43:57,276
Speaker 1: I think we're done, guys, and we walked out just

765
00:43:57,396 --> 00:44:01,356
Speaker 1: feeling really weird. Just just interesting stuff that you learn

766
00:44:01,636 --> 00:44:05,116
Speaker 1: playing in different countries with different cultures. You know, I've

767
00:44:05,156 --> 00:44:07,836
Speaker 1: toured with different orchestras around the world. For example, no

768
00:44:07,996 --> 00:44:11,436
Speaker 1: orchestra plays the same. Every orchestra plays based on their

769
00:44:11,476 --> 00:44:15,916
Speaker 1: cultural idioms, based on how they see Italians, for example,

770
00:44:16,716 --> 00:44:21,716
Speaker 1: best soloists in the world together. It's just the culture.

771
00:44:21,796 --> 00:44:24,916
Speaker 1: It's just the culture. Russians play like broom when when

772
00:44:24,956 --> 00:44:28,316
Speaker 1: the conductor does this, it's down like all at the

773
00:44:28,356 --> 00:44:32,436
Speaker 1: same time. It's just it's so interesting seeing cultures play

774
00:44:32,476 --> 00:44:36,236
Speaker 1: the same piece of music completely differently. How different are

775
00:44:36,236 --> 00:44:40,476
Speaker 1: the audiences. The audiences are quite diverse, you know, both

776
00:44:40,516 --> 00:44:43,836
Speaker 1: for System and my own solo stuff. That the orchestral

777
00:44:43,836 --> 00:44:46,556
Speaker 1: shows are interesting because you'll see older people and you'll

778
00:44:46,596 --> 00:44:48,516
Speaker 1: see you know, people in a system of down t

779
00:44:48,596 --> 00:44:51,396
Speaker 1: shirt in their twenties and wanting to rock. You know,

780
00:44:51,436 --> 00:44:55,636
Speaker 1: it's like this weird combination. And I think with System

781
00:44:55,676 --> 00:44:59,636
Speaker 1: there's a little more male the demographic i'd say, than female.

782
00:44:59,676 --> 00:45:03,156
Speaker 1: But um, you know, it's it's quite interesting. But but

783
00:45:03,236 --> 00:45:06,036
Speaker 1: the age is quite what you see kids and dad's

784
00:45:06,116 --> 00:45:09,436
Speaker 1: going together to concerts. I love seeing that. I really

785
00:45:09,476 --> 00:45:12,396
Speaker 1: really love saying that. Okay, so today's the first day.

786
00:45:12,396 --> 00:45:17,436
Speaker 1: I'm driving my son to our relative's house and I decided,

787
00:45:17,476 --> 00:45:20,356
Speaker 1: I'm like, have you listened to you know, death metal?

788
00:45:20,716 --> 00:45:23,156
Speaker 1: And he's like, what's that? And I'm like, oh good.

789
00:45:23,476 --> 00:45:26,196
Speaker 1: So I played him Slayer for the first time today.

790
00:45:26,236 --> 00:45:30,556
Speaker 1: I played him the band death and he really loved it.

791
00:45:30,756 --> 00:45:35,276
Speaker 1: Was just you know, and I'm like, it's just so

792
00:45:35,276 --> 00:45:39,836
Speaker 1: so interesting, you know, the energy. Yeah, it's just an energy. Yeah,

793
00:45:40,196 --> 00:45:42,116
Speaker 1: I can feel it. And I asked, what do you

794
00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:43,876
Speaker 1: like about this? Do you like the drums? Do you

795
00:45:43,876 --> 00:45:47,236
Speaker 1: like the guitars? Like you said, I like both. You know,

796
00:45:47,236 --> 00:45:49,516
Speaker 1: I play him Tom Waite's I play him everything obviously,

797
00:45:49,636 --> 00:45:52,236
Speaker 1: because you know, it's like food. If they learn from

798
00:45:52,276 --> 00:45:54,596
Speaker 1: a young age to eat everything, they won't want mac

799
00:45:54,596 --> 00:45:56,636
Speaker 1: and cheese for the rest of their life. It's interesting

800
00:45:56,676 --> 00:46:01,516
Speaker 1: before you talked about how the luck and the improbability

801
00:46:01,556 --> 00:46:04,076
Speaker 1: of things that either work for you or against you.

802
00:46:04,916 --> 00:46:09,596
Speaker 1: What are the odds that Toxicity came out week of

803
00:46:09,676 --> 00:46:14,836
Speaker 1: September eleventh. How is that possible? And to have the

804
00:46:14,956 --> 00:46:18,476
Speaker 1: number one album in the country when that happened, It's

805
00:46:18,516 --> 00:46:21,836
Speaker 1: just surreal. It's incredibly surreal, you know, with a song

806
00:46:22,236 --> 00:46:26,916
Speaker 1: whose chorus was trust in myself righteous suicide. I cry

807
00:46:26,916 --> 00:46:30,756
Speaker 1: when Angels deserve to die. You know, it's like completely surreal.

808
00:46:31,556 --> 00:46:34,276
Speaker 1: When people talk about the record, I mean, I remember

809
00:46:34,276 --> 00:46:37,236
Speaker 1: our recording sessions and stuff, but the majority of my

810
00:46:37,396 --> 00:46:41,076
Speaker 1: memories have to do with the stress of the release

811
00:46:41,316 --> 00:46:44,876
Speaker 1: because right before we released it, we held a First

812
00:46:44,876 --> 00:46:48,276
Speaker 1: of all, we held a free show in Hollywood right

813
00:46:48,316 --> 00:46:51,516
Speaker 1: behind the Roosevelt Hotel. You remember, we were expecting three

814
00:46:51,556 --> 00:46:54,636
Speaker 1: to four thousand people, and fifteen twenty thousand people showed

815
00:46:54,716 --> 00:46:58,396
Speaker 1: up and it became you know, fire Marshall came down

816
00:46:58,396 --> 00:47:00,596
Speaker 1: and said you can't play the show. They closed the show.

817
00:47:00,676 --> 00:47:02,996
Speaker 1: Police threatened to arrest us if we got on stage

818
00:47:03,276 --> 00:47:06,916
Speaker 1: to play a song because there were no specific entries,

819
00:47:07,036 --> 00:47:11,676
Speaker 1: the barriers were incorrect or whatever, and it was so tenuous.

820
00:47:11,756 --> 00:47:14,596
Speaker 1: It was so stressful. And I don't know if you

821
00:47:14,676 --> 00:47:16,356
Speaker 1: know this, but I gathered the guys that day and

822
00:47:16,396 --> 00:47:20,596
Speaker 1: I'm like, let's get arrested, will be perfect, Let's go

823
00:47:20,676 --> 00:47:23,636
Speaker 1: for it. And then and then our lawyer goes overheard

824
00:47:23,676 --> 00:47:26,756
Speaker 1: and said everyone here is going to sue you if

825
00:47:26,756 --> 00:47:29,316
Speaker 1: you go up there and the fire marshal is closed it,

826
00:47:29,636 --> 00:47:31,796
Speaker 1: whether they arrest you or not, Like don't you know,

827
00:47:31,996 --> 00:47:35,756
Speaker 1: He's like don't. And it was just crazy. And then

828
00:47:35,836 --> 00:47:38,116
Speaker 1: there was the riot, you know, like there was an

829
00:47:38,196 --> 00:47:41,316
Speaker 1: LA riot before the release of Toxicity because the show

830
00:47:41,956 --> 00:47:44,116
Speaker 1: that we were supposed to play. We even said, like,

831
00:47:44,316 --> 00:47:47,116
Speaker 1: let us go play one song and just announced, well,

832
00:47:47,196 --> 00:47:50,276
Speaker 1: redo the show because obviously there's too many people. This

833
00:47:50,356 --> 00:47:52,396
Speaker 1: is not you know, they wouldn't let us. I mean,

834
00:47:52,436 --> 00:47:56,716
Speaker 1: it was so myopic in retrospect. It was of LAPD

835
00:47:56,876 --> 00:47:59,876
Speaker 1: and not allowing us to at least calm down the crowd.

836
00:48:00,076 --> 00:48:02,916
Speaker 1: They're canceling the show made everybody go crazy. They made

837
00:48:02,956 --> 00:48:06,836
Speaker 1: everyone go crazy. They attacked our crew and equipment went everywhere,

838
00:48:06,956 --> 00:48:10,596
Speaker 1: and police came in with horses and it's just a mess.

839
00:48:10,636 --> 00:48:13,116
Speaker 1: And then watching all of that on the news and feeling,

840
00:48:13,556 --> 00:48:15,396
Speaker 1: you know, even though we did all we could, but

841
00:48:15,596 --> 00:48:17,636
Speaker 1: those were our fans, those are people that wanted to

842
00:48:17,676 --> 00:48:20,156
Speaker 1: hear our music. It was wrong, you know that that

843
00:48:20,276 --> 00:48:24,396
Speaker 1: happened anyway, So toxicitys really started with that. Then, of

844
00:48:24,436 --> 00:48:29,516
Speaker 1: course September eleven. On September twelve, I posted an essay

845
00:48:29,556 --> 00:48:34,036
Speaker 1: called Understanding Oil, which was my way of understanding how

846
00:48:34,076 --> 00:48:36,956
Speaker 1: something like this couldn't happen, and it spoke about fifty

847
00:48:37,036 --> 00:48:41,196
Speaker 1: years of US foreign policy the need for multilateralism in

848
00:48:41,276 --> 00:48:45,076
Speaker 1: terms of how we deal with this issue, not unilateralism

849
00:48:45,156 --> 00:48:48,836
Speaker 1: like it was with going after Iraq, a country that,

850
00:48:49,036 --> 00:48:51,556
Speaker 1: for example, nothing to do with ninety eleven, but at

851
00:48:51,596 --> 00:48:54,476
Speaker 1: the time they were making these ties and a lot

852
00:48:54,476 --> 00:48:56,596
Speaker 1: of people felt that it was wrong, and we had

853
00:48:56,596 --> 00:48:59,316
Speaker 1: the protests before the Iraq War, the Michael Moore video.

854
00:48:59,956 --> 00:49:04,756
Speaker 1: All I remember is this incredible stress? Oh, we were

855
00:49:04,756 --> 00:49:07,636
Speaker 1: on I had to defend myselves on the Howard Stern Show.

856
00:49:08,116 --> 00:49:12,476
Speaker 1: Remember that. I remember I remember calling Howard before because

857
00:49:12,876 --> 00:49:18,076
Speaker 1: Howard was ready to really attack. Yeah, and I called

858
00:49:18,076 --> 00:49:23,116
Speaker 1: them and I said, these are good guys, and keep

859
00:49:23,156 --> 00:49:27,956
Speaker 1: in mind you're getting one side of a story. Their

860
00:49:27,996 --> 00:49:31,716
Speaker 1: intentions are good, they mean good. You know. It was

861
00:49:31,876 --> 00:49:34,196
Speaker 1: really like a positive call. And he's like, okay, I'm

862
00:49:34,596 --> 00:49:36,276
Speaker 1: you know, I'll listen to what he says. But it

863
00:49:36,316 --> 00:49:38,276
Speaker 1: was it really could have it could have gone the

864
00:49:38,316 --> 00:49:41,196
Speaker 1: other way, you know, like I really could have. Oh.

865
00:49:41,236 --> 00:49:43,996
Speaker 1: We had calls, you know, coming in and death threats

866
00:49:43,996 --> 00:49:45,916
Speaker 1: and all sorts of stuff with the band. I remember,

867
00:49:46,276 --> 00:49:49,476
Speaker 1: and mind you were on tour the week after September

868
00:49:49,516 --> 00:49:53,276
Speaker 1: eleven with all those additional you know, red and and

869
00:49:53,276 --> 00:49:57,436
Speaker 1: and and orange like danger there might be more terrorist attacks,

870
00:49:57,436 --> 00:49:59,716
Speaker 1: and we're in front of fifteen twenty thousand people a night.

871
00:49:59,756 --> 00:50:04,036
Speaker 1: You know. Scary, man, It was really really scary and stressful.

872
00:50:04,476 --> 00:50:06,996
Speaker 1: I remember the band got me in a room and

873
00:50:07,036 --> 00:50:09,876
Speaker 1: they're like, what are you doing? Are you trying to

874
00:50:09,876 --> 00:50:13,036
Speaker 1: get us killed? I'm like, but it's the truth, and

875
00:50:13,076 --> 00:50:17,716
Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, so what you know, you know, like

876
00:50:17,956 --> 00:50:19,796
Speaker 1: you're a smart guy. What are you doing? You know?

877
00:50:20,156 --> 00:50:24,396
Speaker 1: And I always say I was naive to think that

878
00:50:24,436 --> 00:50:28,116
Speaker 1: the truth being the truth was the most important thing.

879
00:50:28,156 --> 00:50:31,236
Speaker 1: And I'm still that naive. In other words, I haven't changed,

880
00:50:31,396 --> 00:50:36,596
Speaker 1: It's just who I am. Have any of your ideas

881
00:50:36,796 --> 00:50:40,116
Speaker 1: or beliefs or thoughts changed over the course of your life,

882
00:50:40,236 --> 00:50:43,516
Speaker 1: like something that you really believed firmly in and that

883
00:50:43,636 --> 00:50:46,436
Speaker 1: now you might think differently or opposite. I don't know

884
00:50:46,476 --> 00:50:50,716
Speaker 1: if I think of anything that's completely opposite, but I

885
00:50:50,836 --> 00:50:54,316
Speaker 1: definitely have changed, you know, over time, what's evolved? What's

886
00:50:55,036 --> 00:50:59,356
Speaker 1: think of something that's really evolved. Let's say, so my worldview,

887
00:50:59,676 --> 00:51:02,676
Speaker 1: I think I came from a very small community, or

888
00:51:02,676 --> 00:51:04,636
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean in population of the planet is

889
00:51:04,676 --> 00:51:08,476
Speaker 1: six million people, seven million people, right, And so I

890
00:51:08,596 --> 00:51:11,916
Speaker 1: came from the small kind of idea and community and

891
00:51:12,516 --> 00:51:16,316
Speaker 1: caring for that community. And then seeing over time over

892
00:51:16,356 --> 00:51:21,116
Speaker 1: these last twenty number whatever years traveling the world, would

893
00:51:21,156 --> 00:51:25,036
Speaker 1: you know, due to touring and and seeing that we're

894
00:51:25,036 --> 00:51:29,636
Speaker 1: all living that same experience, right that injustice is everywhere.

895
00:51:29,996 --> 00:51:35,636
Speaker 1: Corruption is everywhere, whether it's hidden between an oligarchic regime

896
00:51:36,276 --> 00:51:40,836
Speaker 1: or with k Street lobbying firms in Washington, DC, you know,

897
00:51:40,876 --> 00:51:44,916
Speaker 1: which is legalized corruption. It's everywhere. So seeing some of

898
00:51:44,956 --> 00:51:48,956
Speaker 1: the same common denominators around the world and at the

899
00:51:48,996 --> 00:51:53,076
Speaker 1: same time people's good will around the world. That I

900
00:51:53,116 --> 00:51:57,116
Speaker 1: think that's what's changed the most about me, is developing

901
00:51:57,156 --> 00:52:01,796
Speaker 1: from an ethnocentric artist, activist to a universal kind of

902
00:52:02,716 --> 00:52:04,876
Speaker 1: Probably I've never even thought about this, but I guess

903
00:52:04,956 --> 00:52:07,676
Speaker 1: that would be it. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I tend

904
00:52:07,716 --> 00:52:12,156
Speaker 1: to think of people being good and systems being bad.

905
00:52:13,556 --> 00:52:17,436
Speaker 1: That's a perfect way of putting it. Yeah, did you

906
00:52:17,476 --> 00:52:20,076
Speaker 1: talked about growing up in this small community. Did all

907
00:52:20,116 --> 00:52:22,596
Speaker 1: of the band members have a similar experience growing up?

908
00:52:22,636 --> 00:52:27,436
Speaker 1: Would you say similar? I'm sure it's quite a little different,

909
00:52:27,516 --> 00:52:29,636
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean growing up. We all grew up

910
00:52:29,636 --> 00:52:32,956
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. John's originally from Toronto, born in Lebanon.

911
00:52:33,396 --> 00:52:35,836
Speaker 1: Chabo was the only one of us that were born

912
00:52:35,916 --> 00:52:37,636
Speaker 1: in Armenia, but he was really young. I think he

913
00:52:37,676 --> 00:52:41,316
Speaker 1: was three when his migrated to the US. So we

914
00:52:41,356 --> 00:52:43,636
Speaker 1: all grew up in the community. We went to different schools,

915
00:52:43,636 --> 00:52:45,916
Speaker 1: but at one point three out of four of us

916
00:52:45,956 --> 00:52:49,076
Speaker 1: went to the same Armenian private school that's in the film,

917
00:52:49,716 --> 00:52:53,316
Speaker 1: and they were younger than Michevo and Darren, so they

918
00:52:53,356 --> 00:52:55,836
Speaker 1: remember me. I don't remember them from that time, but

919
00:52:55,956 --> 00:53:01,236
Speaker 1: obviously later. So there are these interesting pre system of

920
00:53:01,276 --> 00:53:03,836
Speaker 1: a down experiences that we can all relate to, like

921
00:53:03,956 --> 00:53:06,796
Speaker 1: teachers that three out of four of us knew and

922
00:53:07,196 --> 00:53:10,356
Speaker 1: would laugh at just you know, mentioning, like these interesting

923
00:53:10,396 --> 00:53:14,476
Speaker 1: common experiences. I think being in the community definitely somehow

924
00:53:14,556 --> 00:53:19,396
Speaker 1: brought us together as artists who had different musical experiences,

925
00:53:19,476 --> 00:53:24,396
Speaker 1: but a very common community experience. It's interesting also that

926
00:53:24,596 --> 00:53:28,796
Speaker 1: living in Los Angeles and making music, you could conceivably

927
00:53:28,796 --> 00:53:32,796
Speaker 1: play with anyone, and you all chose to do it

928
00:53:32,836 --> 00:53:38,916
Speaker 1: within this community. It's just interesting. It's interesting. It feels

929
00:53:38,916 --> 00:53:42,196
Speaker 1: like it limited your choices in terms of who to

930
00:53:42,236 --> 00:53:45,756
Speaker 1: play with. Right Well, it's funny. The way it happened

931
00:53:45,836 --> 00:53:48,116
Speaker 1: is I was playing keyboards in this one band that

932
00:53:48,196 --> 00:53:50,796
Speaker 1: we did, like kind of alternative music in our Meenian

933
00:53:50,836 --> 00:53:53,236
Speaker 1: and English, and we were rehearsing in Burbank or North

934
00:53:53,236 --> 00:53:57,356
Speaker 1: Hollywood somewhere, and I was just their keys guy. And

935
00:53:57,756 --> 00:54:00,316
Speaker 1: there was another band that was sharing the studio with us,

936
00:54:00,596 --> 00:54:02,476
Speaker 1: and it was a number of our meaning guys and

937
00:54:02,596 --> 00:54:04,916
Speaker 1: non our meaning guys as well. Actually was a combination,

938
00:54:05,356 --> 00:54:08,676
Speaker 1: and they just got Darren to come in as their guitarist,

939
00:54:09,196 --> 00:54:11,196
Speaker 1: like they needed a good guitar, so they got there,

940
00:54:11,196 --> 00:54:13,796
Speaker 1: and he was young, it was like sixteen or seventeen,

941
00:54:14,436 --> 00:54:16,956
Speaker 1: so we started playing with them, and him and I

942
00:54:16,956 --> 00:54:21,276
Speaker 1: I remember, okay, so remember Waco, Texas when David Koresh

943
00:54:21,356 --> 00:54:24,556
Speaker 1: had the whole thing right? How can we forget that right?

944
00:54:24,996 --> 00:54:29,316
Speaker 1: So when that happened, I helped write a song that

945
00:54:29,396 --> 00:54:32,516
Speaker 1: Darren contributed to called Waco Jesus. And it's the first

946
00:54:32,516 --> 00:54:35,036
Speaker 1: time I ever sang on a recording. So here I

947
00:54:35,036 --> 00:54:36,956
Speaker 1: am from this band, but I wrote the song for

948
00:54:37,116 --> 00:54:39,676
Speaker 1: our singer and that band to sing and he wasn't around,

949
00:54:40,116 --> 00:54:44,156
Speaker 1: so I ended up singing it myself and Darren contributed

950
00:54:44,236 --> 00:54:46,476
Speaker 1: as well and played on it. That's when him and

951
00:54:46,516 --> 00:54:50,036
Speaker 1: I really met and started kind of playing around with ideas,

952
00:54:50,116 --> 00:54:52,476
Speaker 1: musical ideas, and we realized a lot of the guys

953
00:54:52,516 --> 00:54:55,516
Speaker 1: were jamming with they were like, you know, into girls

954
00:54:55,596 --> 00:54:58,956
Speaker 1: and drinking and having fun, and him and I were

955
00:54:58,996 --> 00:55:04,756
Speaker 1: really like into more philosophical ideas of music and understanding things,

956
00:55:04,836 --> 00:55:08,116
Speaker 1: and he was serious. We were both somehow we connected

957
00:55:08,116 --> 00:55:10,916
Speaker 1: as lifers as they say, right, Yeah, And I remember

958
00:55:11,036 --> 00:55:13,796
Speaker 1: Darren playing acoustic guitar and us singing our first harmony,

959
00:55:14,076 --> 00:55:17,476
Speaker 1: and like you said, something was special about that. And

960
00:55:17,516 --> 00:55:19,796
Speaker 1: I don't even know if that song was ever became

961
00:55:19,796 --> 00:55:22,556
Speaker 1: a song or whatever. It was just something and that's

962
00:55:22,556 --> 00:55:24,636
Speaker 1: how that's how we started. And then Shovel was a

963
00:55:24,676 --> 00:55:27,556
Speaker 1: friend of Darren's, and Shovel came in to manage us,

964
00:55:28,916 --> 00:55:31,356
Speaker 1: you know, and he was a guitarist, not a bassist,

965
00:55:31,396 --> 00:55:34,036
Speaker 1: but he's you know, Darren was like, this guy really

966
00:55:34,116 --> 00:55:37,156
Speaker 1: understands my musical mind, and I think he should work

967
00:55:37,156 --> 00:55:39,756
Speaker 1: with us kind of thing. And so Shovel became our bassist.

968
00:55:40,396 --> 00:55:43,676
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was like it was all natural. Although

969
00:55:43,716 --> 00:55:47,596
Speaker 1: we're all from the same community, but there was something

970
00:55:47,676 --> 00:55:50,836
Speaker 1: very organic that led each other to each other. And

971
00:55:50,916 --> 00:55:54,596
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, when we played Armenia for the first time, Man,

972
00:55:54,676 --> 00:55:57,196
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I remember right before the show, when

973
00:55:57,236 --> 00:56:00,396
Speaker 1: we did our little band huddle, I was really calm.

974
00:56:01,076 --> 00:56:03,236
Speaker 1: It felt like the band was created to play that

975
00:56:03,276 --> 00:56:05,956
Speaker 1: one show, and everything we had experienced in the middle

976
00:56:06,516 --> 00:56:09,836
Speaker 1: was designed so that we could be there. That it

977
00:56:09,876 --> 00:56:15,316
Speaker 1: felt like this culmination of history coming bringing us to

978
00:56:15,396 --> 00:56:18,676
Speaker 1: that point. It felt so special, incredible. And it's not

979
00:56:18,716 --> 00:56:22,556
Speaker 1: just your history or the band history, but it's the culture.

980
00:56:22,636 --> 00:56:26,956
Speaker 1: It's the history of that culture coming together. Yeah, and

981
00:56:26,956 --> 00:56:30,236
Speaker 1: and coming back from the other side of the world

982
00:56:31,116 --> 00:56:34,516
Speaker 1: to fly a flag of art to bring people together.

983
00:56:34,556 --> 00:56:40,916
Speaker 1: I feel start crying talking about it. It's just unbelievable.

984
00:56:41,436 --> 00:56:45,916
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. Yeah, man, it was unbelievable and and it

985
00:56:45,956 --> 00:56:51,356
Speaker 1: felt incredible. Honestly, I am really really grateful for you

986
00:56:51,436 --> 00:56:54,756
Speaker 1: being on this road with us, this journey. It's meant

987
00:56:54,756 --> 00:56:57,716
Speaker 1: the world to me. And and you know, learning from

988
00:56:57,756 --> 00:57:00,996
Speaker 1: you and being your friend, and so I'm I'm I'm

989
00:57:01,036 --> 00:57:04,556
Speaker 1: extremely grateful for where where we're at. It is my

990
00:57:04,636 --> 00:57:08,076
Speaker 1: honor to be in service to you, sir. Thank you.

991
00:57:08,436 --> 00:57:10,596
Speaker 1: I'll talk to you and I'm gonna go West. I'm

992
00:57:10,636 --> 00:57:17,156
Speaker 1: gonna go. Great seeing you man, Great to see you.

993
00:57:20,596 --> 00:57:23,316
Speaker 1: Thanks to Surge, Tonky and for talking music and activism

994
00:57:23,316 --> 00:57:26,116
Speaker 1: with Rick. To hear a playlist of our favorite songs

995
00:57:26,156 --> 00:57:28,516
Speaker 1: from Surge and System of a Down, head to Broken

996
00:57:28,556 --> 00:57:31,316
Speaker 1: record podcast dot com, where you can also find a

997
00:57:31,356 --> 00:57:33,996
Speaker 1: playlist Surge put together as some of his favorite tunes.

998
00:57:34,796 --> 00:57:37,076
Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube

999
00:57:37,076 --> 00:57:40,196
Speaker 1: dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where you can find

1000
00:57:40,196 --> 00:57:43,956
Speaker 1: extended cuts of new and old episodes. You can follow

1001
00:57:44,036 --> 00:57:47,316
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Records produced help

1002
00:57:47,356 --> 00:57:52,156
Speaker 1: from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and

1003
00:57:52,276 --> 00:57:56,196
Speaker 1: Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our executive

1004
00:57:56,236 --> 00:57:59,476
Speaker 1: producer is me a Little. Broken Record is a production

1005
00:57:59,516 --> 00:58:02,076
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries, and if you liked the show, please

1006
00:58:02,076 --> 00:58:04,716
Speaker 1: remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast

1007
00:58:04,756 --> 00:58:08,396
Speaker 1: app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,

1008
00:58:08,636 --> 00:58:11,836
Speaker 1: Pace four