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Speaker 1: I was twelve years old and could not sleep the

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Speaker 1: night before. No one that I was going to take

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Speaker 1: the same trip as al Capone and Machine Gun Kelly

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Speaker 1: and Creepy Carpas and the Birdman of Alcatraz. I was

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Speaker 1: going to the rock, I was going inside. I was

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Speaker 1: going to stand in the yard. I was going to

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Speaker 1: walk on Broadway. I was going to see the dummy

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Speaker 1: heads and their escape route. I felt real connected to

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Speaker 1: the escape from Alcatraz for a couple of reasons. One,

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Speaker 1: Alan West and I shared the same birthday, March twenty fifth,

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Speaker 1: and his daddy was from Savannah, Georgia. The Angland brothers,

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Speaker 1: John and Clarence were from Dawsonville, Joorrup. So again, I

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Speaker 1: felt connected, and I wanted this trip so that I

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Speaker 1: could see for myself.

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Speaker 2: Whether they made it or not.

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Speaker 1: Now, the FBI would say things like, oh, the strong

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Speaker 1: currents and the cold water. There were no stolen cars,

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Speaker 1: their families didn't have enough money to help them, and

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Speaker 1: in seventeen years there was no evidence that was credible.

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Speaker 2: That they were alive.

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Speaker 1: Well, the FBI ended up closing this case in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy nine. So again, for the twelve year old me,

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Speaker 1: My feeling was Alan West was a con man.

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Speaker 2: I think he lied to throw them off.

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Speaker 1: I always thought that perhaps the three of them took

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Speaker 1: a train like hobos. There was a paddle found on

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Speaker 1: Angel Island similar to the one they found at the prison.

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Speaker 1: I know for a fact, growing up in a family

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Speaker 1: with people that had your back, that they will keep

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Speaker 1: your secrets. So it didn't phaze me at all that

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Speaker 1: the family said they didn't know anything. Of course they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't tell if they knew. There was a policeman that

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Speaker 1: said he saw a boat there waiting kind of in

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Speaker 1: the harbor. And again the twelve year old me would

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Speaker 1: say to the FBI, you have no evidence they're alive,

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Speaker 1: but you don't have any evidence they're dead either. Now,

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Speaker 1: James Whitey Bulger said the cheers could be heard for

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Speaker 1: miles every minute that they were able to be gone.

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Speaker 1: They were about five minutes ahead of law enforcement, is

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Speaker 1: the way I said. And one of the guards wrote

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Speaker 1: in his notes about that evening everything was quiet and

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Speaker 1: seemed normal. Now, anybody in law enforcement knows that's the

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Speaker 1: kiss of death. If you start saying things are too

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Speaker 1: quiet or everything's normal, something is about to pop off.

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Speaker 1: Alcatraz the Rock in nineteen thirty four became the most

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Speaker 1: secure prison in the world. Its inmates were the worst

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Speaker 1: of the worst. All of them were public enemies. The

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Speaker 1: guards performed dozens of checks every day. They had towers

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Speaker 1: with armed guards, bob wire fences, locks.

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Speaker 2: Who in the world.

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Speaker 1: Could get out of this place? Well, thirty six men

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Speaker 1: tried in fourteen different escapes. But there's only one mystery,

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Speaker 1: and I think that it is time to bring in

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Speaker 1: our expert, y'all. I am so excited to introduce y'all

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Speaker 1: to Michael Eslinger. He is not only an author about

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Speaker 1: Alcatraz and about the inmates from that island. I had

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Speaker 1: the absolute honor of taking a tour where Michael was

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Speaker 1: the tour guide. And you want to talk about seeing

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Speaker 1: Alcatraz in the most complete three point sixty one ever,

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Speaker 1: you got to go with him, and let me tell

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Speaker 1: you a keep funny story. He also took the Kardashians

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Speaker 1: on a private tour. So the morning that we're getting

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Speaker 1: ready to go meet Michael, I said to my daughter,

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Speaker 1: I said, this is probably going to be like deja

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Speaker 1: voux for him, And then of course she said, Mama,

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Speaker 1: please don't make that joke.

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Speaker 2: But here's the reality.

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Speaker 1: He knows more than almost anybody else, and when you

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Speaker 1: walk with him, he will point things out that you

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Speaker 1: would have never noticed. It's not even published anywhere. Michael,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to his own seven.

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Speaker 3: Oh thank you, Mac. What a pleasure. And that was

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Speaker 3: a such a great trip together. I really enjoyed.

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Speaker 1: That both of us had a friend in common, and

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Speaker 1: this friend was an inmate own Alcatraz, and he was

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Speaker 1: a character, and we got the invitation.

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Speaker 2: I guess you would say, for lack of.

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Speaker 1: A better word, from his family to go with them

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Speaker 1: to the island for his memorial service. I don't know

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Speaker 1: about your first feelings, but I was blown away by

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Speaker 1: the compassion and just respect that the Park Service gave

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Speaker 1: to his family.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's such a profound thing, you know. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he's not the first that I'm aware of that actually

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Speaker 3: has had some of his ashes spread there. You know

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Speaker 3: what's so profound about it to me is that many

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Speaker 3: people see Alcatraz obviously as a really horrific place, but

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Speaker 3: I think from a convict's point of view, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of the men that spent time there, they kind

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Speaker 3: of saw it as a new beginning. Was sort of

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Speaker 3: the end of the line right in the federal prison

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Speaker 3: ser So for many of these men, I think that

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Speaker 3: it was kind of the wake up call that they

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Speaker 3: needed to change their life. And I think that for

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Speaker 3: a lot of them, that's where that change took place.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Alcatraz is obviously very different from other prisons.

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Speaker 3: I've interviewed probably you know, close to forty former convicts

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Speaker 3: that were incarcerated on Alcatraz, and they all talk about

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Speaker 3: how conditions in other prisons like Levenworth in Atlanta and

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Speaker 3: some and these other facilities where you don't really have

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Speaker 3: a good sense of what's beyond the walls. You're in

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Speaker 3: a very remote location, so there's no sense of society

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Speaker 3: outside of those walls. Run Alcatraz, right, You've got the

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Speaker 3: beautiful vistas of San Francisco, and you're out in the

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Speaker 3: middle of this beautiful bay and everything is so close

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Speaker 3: yet so far. You can hear the sounds of the city.

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Speaker 3: You know, Whitey Bulger, who spent a lot of time

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Speaker 3: up on the third tier of Sea Block, you know,

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Speaker 3: he says that he can remember actually seeing the lights

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Speaker 3: from a fire engin and hearing sirens and those kind

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Speaker 3: of things, so as you can imagine, everything lost is

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Speaker 3: right there in view.

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Speaker 1: The gentleman we were just talking about his name was

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Speaker 1: Robert Schablin, and Michael I got to tell you when

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Speaker 1: I went and met with him at his house in Florida.

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Speaker 1: Of course, obviously our conversation went to the escape and

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Speaker 1: I asked him, I said, well, do you think they

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Speaker 1: made it? And he went he laughed, you know how

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Speaker 1: Robert would laugh, and he said no, I told him

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Speaker 1: they were going to die. So again, the twelve year

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Speaker 1: old me was like a little disheartened. Being able to

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Speaker 1: be with you on Alcatraz with Kelly and the family

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Speaker 1: to honor Bob was. It was so important to me

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Speaker 1: and honestly a career highlight. I had obviously heard about

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Speaker 1: people having memorial services and funerals on Alcatraz, but I

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Speaker 1: had never been able to be involved, and it was extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: But you added to that so much by showing us

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Speaker 1: so many small details and facts and history that I

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Speaker 1: had never heard. And I thought of myself as a

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Speaker 1: pretty decent expert.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of cliche, but you know, there are so

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Speaker 3: many layers of history to Alcatraz, and you know it

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Speaker 3: started off as as a military fort just before the

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Speaker 3: Civil War era. You know, if you go under the

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Speaker 3: cell house, the citadel structure that was built just before

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Speaker 3: the Civil War started, it was.

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Speaker 1: And was there.

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Speaker 3: You know, the soldier graffiti is still there. It's like

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Speaker 3: a time capsule under there. I first went there as

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Speaker 3: a kid, and I became absolutely fascinated with it. I

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Speaker 3: in fact, had met Clarence Carnes, who was also believed

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Speaker 3: to have had a role on the escape but ended

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Speaker 3: up opping out, and you know, just hearing his stories

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Speaker 3: and later in life, I was just so fascinated that I,

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Speaker 3: you know, I read a lot of books on it,

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Speaker 3: and then I you know, ended up you know, reaching

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Speaker 3: out to him later in life and had found that

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Speaker 3: he had reoffended and was back in prison. But when

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Speaker 3: I started doing interviews with a lot of these guys,

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Speaker 3: it's just their stories are so fascinating to me. And

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Speaker 3: you know, and that's another part of it is that

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Speaker 3: you know, Bob was right in the thick of it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he literally had to sell it was on

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Speaker 3: the very same corridor that wasn't wasn't very populated by

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Speaker 3: the way, on the night of the escape, you know,

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Speaker 3: there wasn't that many convicts that were, you know, on

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Speaker 3: that corridor. And you know, he served time next to

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Speaker 3: men like Neil McCauley, who was a bank robber. He

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Speaker 3: was a subject of the film with Robert de Niro,

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Speaker 3: Al Pacino and Val Kilner to the movie Heat. Bob

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Speaker 3: knew him really well. You know, he was there during

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Speaker 3: the time that Mickey Cohen, you know, Frankie Carbo obviously

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Speaker 3: with Frank Morris, the Anglan's Whitey Bulger. I mean, it

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Speaker 3: was like this hall of fame of criminals all under

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Speaker 3: the same roof.

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Speaker 1: So he shared a dinner table with him. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: spoke freely. It was fantastic. And his stories, I mean,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, when he talks about machine gun Kelly

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Speaker 1: and calling him pop Gun, I mean come home.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, and that's the part of it,

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Speaker 3: and I you know, I'm always fascinated by it and

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Speaker 3: just the details. You know. I remember Bulger saying that

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Speaker 3: Clarence Cards would come by the cell and he'd say that,

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Speaker 3: you know, hey, you know al Capone checked out this

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Speaker 3: book three times. You know, here's his number in the back,

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Speaker 3: and you know it's recommended and endorsed by him, and

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Speaker 3: you know they're reading from the same pages and sort

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Speaker 3: of and I think if you look back to the thirties,

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Speaker 3: all the way up until it's closure and today, it's

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Speaker 3: kind of the magic of walking through that building, you

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Speaker 3: know it's still as it was back then. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you look up to the upper tiers, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's still the very same paint that was there during

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Speaker 3: the convicts. You can still see the paint from Alan

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Speaker 3: West by the way when he was painting up there

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Speaker 3: up on the ceiling, which I find completely fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I do want to get into the escape and if

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Speaker 1: you could just paint for people the picture of what

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Speaker 1: transpired as far as how they started this plan.

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Speaker 3: I mean Alcatraz at the time, right, it was basically

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Speaker 3: seen as inescapable. The prison itself was built in a

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Speaker 3: way that no outer wall from a cell, there was

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Speaker 3: no way to escape from their perspective anyways, from their cells.

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Speaker 3: And I think that you're sitting in the middle of

195
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Speaker 3: the bay. You know, obviously one of the biggest deterrens

196
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Speaker 3: is the San Francisco Bay waters that you know, typically

197
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Speaker 3: was in the low fifties, the currents if you didn't

198
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Speaker 3: have a tide chart, the currents could be pretty extreme.

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Speaker 3: I mean, one of the things that people failed to

200
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Speaker 3: realize is that you see these people that swim competitive

201
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Speaker 3: swimming off of Alcatraz all the time, but they're swimming

202
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Speaker 3: during a slack tide. They're waiting until you have kind

203
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Speaker 3: of a neutral tide state where they can kind of

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Speaker 3: make it back to the shore without you know, without

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Speaker 3: fighting currents, so to speak. By nineteen sixty two, during

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Speaker 3: that period of the escape, it was kind of a

207
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Speaker 3: different era on Alcatraz. A lot of the security measures

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Speaker 3: that had been implemented in the nineteen teen thirties, a

209
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Speaker 3: lot of them had been relaxed. When the prison first opened,

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Speaker 3: there had been the silence rule, and by the time

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Speaker 3: of nineteen sixty two, during the escape, they had a

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Speaker 3: music program. They allowed the convicts about an hour before bedtime.

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Speaker 3: They could actually play instruments in their cells. They had

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Speaker 3: a radio, a radio jack in their cells. And most

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Speaker 3: importantly is that they also had closed many of the

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Speaker 3: guard towers during the nighttime hours, where you initially there

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Speaker 3: had been six towers and by the time of the escape,

218
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Speaker 3: the only working tower was the dock tower. But to

219
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Speaker 3: kind of frame up a little about the escape. There

220
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Speaker 3: was four conspirators in the escape, and Frank Morris, John

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Speaker 3: and Clarence Anglin, who I ended up writing a book

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Speaker 3: with the nephew of the Anglans, and then as you mentioned,

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Speaker 3: Alan West. And there's a lot of debate as far

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Speaker 3: as who was really the architect of the escape. A

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Speaker 3: lot of people do credit that to Alan West, because

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Speaker 3: Alan actually was working in the cell house and he

227
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Speaker 3: would have been able to sort of observe the different

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Speaker 3: weaknesses at that period of time, you know, with kind

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Speaker 3: of officer routines all of those things. But from my perspective,

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Speaker 3: I think that it was sort of a collective of

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Speaker 3: all of the convicts that were involved, including some of

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Speaker 3: the others. I don't believe that Whitey Bulger was directly involved,

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Speaker 3: but he definitely was in the know. He had mutual friends.

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Speaker 3: And you've got to remember that at the time of

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Speaker 3: this escape, there's only about two hundred I think the

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Speaker 3: official number was two hundred and thirty four, So you've

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Speaker 3: only got two hundred and thirty four men under the

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Speaker 3: same roof. And I think to some degree there was

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Speaker 3: a lot of communication and probably for lack of a

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Speaker 3: better term, sharing best practices on different weaknesses. There's a

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Speaker 3: there's a great memorandum from March of nineteen sixty one

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Speaker 3: where an officer actually sees Clarence Anglin, Clarence Joe Carnes,

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Speaker 3: and some of these other convicts talking. I always kind

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Speaker 3: of credit that officer, thinking that he was very observant,

245
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Speaker 3: because he writes a memo and says, hey, I saw

246
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Speaker 3: something that I think that we should be watching, because

247
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Speaker 3: when I got closer, they stopped talking and it seems

248
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Speaker 3: like they're conspiring about something. But long story short, So

249
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Speaker 3: Alan West is actually starting to do painting up in

250
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Speaker 3: the top of the cell house and he sees an

251
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Speaker 3: abandoned event that when the Battle of Alcatraz it took

252
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Speaker 3: place in nineteen forty six, they were throwing grenades up

253
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Speaker 3: into the cell block and it damaged a lot of

254
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Speaker 3: these blowers. And so what they did was is that they,

255
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Speaker 3: you know, because it was on top of a secure

256
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Speaker 3: cell block, they didn't really have a way to dismantle

257
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Speaker 3: it and take it out, so they just left the

258
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Speaker 3: blower on top of the cell house and then they

259
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 3: put a passive vent on top of the roof. He

260
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Speaker 3: looks at it and realizes, hey, I think that this

261
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,800
Speaker 3: might be a way out for us, and basically shares

262
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,160
Speaker 3: that with Frank Morris and then Frank Morris, which it's

263
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 3: in the records, he actually gets a cell on the

264
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Speaker 3: very top tier, on the end of that tier, where

265
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 3: every time he comes out of his cell for a meal,

266
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Speaker 3: he can actually look up to kind of analyze that

267
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Speaker 3: vent the next you know, which is kind of amazing

268
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Speaker 3: to me. I mean, here's where the mystery really sort

269
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Speaker 3: of comes in is that Alan West actually gets permission

270
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Speaker 3: that he's painting on top of the cell block in

271
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Speaker 3: this sort of barred off area that's on top of

272
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Speaker 3: the cell block itself and has access to this vent,

273
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Speaker 3: but he actually talks the officers into allowing him to

274
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Speaker 3: hang blankets around the bars in this enclosed space up top,

275
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Speaker 3: and that way he can kind of work in private.

276
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Speaker 3: And then all of the different convicts who are involved,

277
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Speaker 3: they start obtaining raincoats. They actually start you know, Clarence Anglin,

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Speaker 3: who's in the escape, is a barber in the barbershop.

279
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Speaker 3: As he's cutting hair, he starts clipping hair and then

280
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Speaker 3: dropping the bits of hair into the cuffs of his

281
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Speaker 3: pants and then taking him back to the cell. Yeah,

282
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Speaker 3: and then after all of this time, I think after

283
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Speaker 3: many many months of planning, they actually are able to

284
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Speaker 3: successfully they're working on top of the cell, blow during

285
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Speaker 3: music hours or putting these dummy heads into sort of

286
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,280
Speaker 3: as a ruse for the officers, and then most you know,

287
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,359
Speaker 3: without getting too far ahead, which I think for me, unfortunately,

288
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,200
Speaker 3: I wasn't able to locate this until after after the

289
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 3: book had come out, but I did include it in

290
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Speaker 3: the in the book that I did with Whitey Bulger

291
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,640
Speaker 3: and doing interviews with him, was that I found a

292
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Speaker 3: memo where an officer says that one of the officers

293
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Speaker 3: admitted that he failed to do account that night. And

294
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Speaker 3: I think that when you look at it, there there

295
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 3: had been kind of a complacency that because Alcatraz was

296
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,680
Speaker 3: so secure, like they would have never imagined in a

297
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 3: million years that once they're in their cell there would

298
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Speaker 3: have ever been a way.

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Speaker 2: Out one hundred percent absolutely, and that's.

300
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 3: Where one of the big failures took place. So so

301
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,400
Speaker 3: the amazing part about it is is they under these

302
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 3: incredible conditions, these men actually at lights out, they immediately

303
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,200
Speaker 3: make it out of their cells. They plant these dummy

304
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 3: heads that they've made, they get on top of the cell.

305
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 3: A lot of the convicts actually hear the noises as

306
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,760
Speaker 3: the vent gets pushed over. They've been able to cut

307
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 3: through the bars and also the bolts of this vent

308
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,679
Speaker 3: and they push it over. And I always imagine what

309
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 3: that must have been like to get on top of

310
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,360
Speaker 3: the roof and you're looking out towards the city scape

311
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,639
Speaker 3: and that view of you know, no bars, nothing between you,

312
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,879
Speaker 3: and then of course they made it into the water,

313
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Speaker 3: and that's where the mystery begins.

314
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 1: There are reports that there was a makeshift raft and

315
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: an ore and footprints walking away from it own Angel Island.

316
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Speaker 1: You've got the police officer that again, to me, he

317
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 1: didn't benefit by saying what he saw. And this was

318
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Speaker 1: not a person that untrained. He was observant. He made

319
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Speaker 1: note of it. It stayed with him and he noticed

320
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 1: it before he would have ever known that the escape

321
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,960
Speaker 1: had occurred, because that wasn't known until the next morning.

322
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Speaker 1: So if he's telling people the night before, it seems

323
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:07,480
Speaker 1: pretty legit.

324
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Speaker 3: And it's interesting because you know what I was doing

325
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 3: interviews with Whitey Bulger. He talked a lot about a

326
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 3: big part of their planning and their discussion when they

327
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Speaker 3: hit the water. They had a plan A, they had

328
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 3: a plan B, they had a plan C. They had

329
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Speaker 3: had went through so many different layers of planning on

330
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Speaker 3: what they were going to do, where they were going

331
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Speaker 3: to go. They were going to cut ties. And the

332
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Speaker 3: incredible thing to me is that if they were able

333
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,919
Speaker 3: to make it to shore and get into a car,

334
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,359
Speaker 3: they could have literally been in Mexico by the time

335
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,640
Speaker 3: that they were discovered missing, just by driving.

336
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:42,680
Speaker 2: That's right.

337
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 3: So it's possible. And and you know, I always look

338
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 3: at Whitey Bulger, you know, I mean he was a

339
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,240
Speaker 3: ghost for sixteen years. You know, he was living right

340
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,000
Speaker 3: under their noses. So I think that it's always a possibility.

341
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,159
Speaker 1: I want to get back to Robert for a minute,

342
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,639
Speaker 1: because again when I was visiting with him, this was

343
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,439
Speaker 1: obviously something that I focused on, was the escape. And

344
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of the inmates there

345
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,240
Speaker 1: knew about it, had heard about it, and were helping

346
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 1: in different ways. But Robert mentioned to me that he helped

347
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: them with the tides tables and understanding when the best

348
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 1: place to launch from and the best time at night

349
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Speaker 1: to leave.

350
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Speaker 3: Very true. And you know, it's amazing to me because

351
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 3: I remember when he originally had talked about that not

352
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 3: a fisherman or anything. So I had never heard of

353
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 3: a newspaper publishing the tide tables in the newspaper, and

354
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 3: I thought that that was very suspect. And you know,

355
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 3: I love Bob, and you know, he's such a character.

356
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 3: You always kind of want to make sure that you're

357
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 3: kind of validating what these people say. And so I

358
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,959
Speaker 3: remember him telling me the story, you know, his he

359
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,679
Speaker 3: worked on the dock at the time, and indicated that

360
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 3: it was not unusual that when the officers would be,

361
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,679
Speaker 3: you know, eating lunch in the dock Carrea, that they

362
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 3: would be having a cigarette. After they eat, they'd be

363
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 3: reading the newspaper and then they would just throw the

364
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,120
Speaker 3: newspaper into the garbage. So I went back and I

365
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 3: ended up, you know, finding the newspapers for the day

366
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 3: of the escape, and sure enough, the tied tables were

367
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 3: actually published in the paper and that something.

368
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he was so funny because he was like, look,

369
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people were involved, and he said the

370
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: Birdman of Alcatraz actually was teaching the England Brothers Spanish. Well,

371
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 1: one thing that I found interesting in part of I

372
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: think it was Clarence's personal effects was a Spanish dictionary.

373
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 2: So again there's there's all these.

374
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: Connections where people are like, hey, if you're going to

375
00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:48,960
Speaker 1: try it, I'm going to help you. You know, maybe

376
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 1: I can get you a saw blade. Maybe hey, here's

377
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 1: a motor from the broken vacuum cleaner. And while y'all are,

378
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, drilling and sawing away, I'm going to play

379
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,440
Speaker 1: music so that the guards don't hear you. So they

380
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,400
Speaker 1: did have this team aspect to it, to say, if

381
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 1: you're going to do it, you know there's a good

382
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 1: possibility you ain't going to make it, or that you

383
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: could dah, but we're going to help you because if

384
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 1: one of you gets out, it's kind of a little

385
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: bit of freedom for all of us.

386
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And that's exactly what Whitey Bulcher had said. He

387
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 3: said that morning when they figured out that they had

388
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 3: actually made the escape, and from what he said was

389
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,399
Speaker 3: is that you know those who were in the know,

390
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 3: you know, Balcher said he was awake all night. He

391
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: said he'd it was one of the first times where

392
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 3: he had actually stayed awake all night. Everybody was just

393
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 3: in absolute suspense, waiting for the guards to notice them gone.

394
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 3: And he said that when the sun came up and

395
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: you know, they first heard the guards screaming that they're gone,

396
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 3: he said that everybody started cheering. And I love his

397
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 3: quote because he said, in that very moment, it was

398
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,439
Speaker 3: a moment of freedom for all of us. And just

399
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 3: imagine how profound that is that after being opened for

400
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 3: almost thirty years, that these guys they disappeared. They'd been

401
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 3: gone all night and nobody ever heard or seen them again.

402
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing.

403
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 1: I'm not champion escaping from prison. I don't want anybody

404
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 1: to misunderstand where I'm coming from. But there is that

405
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 1: aspect of just human nature that sometimes the bank robbers.

406
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:21,960
Speaker 2: You know, you want him to.

407
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: Get away, this idea of I'm going to escape and

408
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 1: go to South America and start over and maybe go

409
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: on the straight and era and make some money and

410
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, make a little home for myself, maybe raise

411
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: some children. You know, That's basically what Robert was saying

412
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: when he finally got out. And the reason he didn't

413
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: want any part of the escape is he was due

414
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: to get out pretty shortly after the escape occurred, and

415
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 1: he wanted to go make a home and have a

416
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: family and that's exactly what he.

417
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 3: Did, absolutely, and I think it's a good point. I

418
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 3: mean I always tell people that he really had to

419
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 3: be careful, right because a lot of people see them

420
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 3: as sort of folk heroes, and you know, you've got

421
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 3: to remember that you know, they they absolutely we were

422
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 3: bank robbers, the anglings. It was proven, you know, in

423
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 3: some of the evidence photos that they had used toy guns.

424
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 3: One of them did have a real gun. But these

425
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 3: were not victimless crimes. And you know, I always say

426
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 3: that it's really important that, especially when you know, see

427
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 3: kids kind of walking around the cells everything else, that

428
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 3: you don't want to glamorize these men. I mean, there

429
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,359
Speaker 3: was no valor in a lot of these crimes. I

430
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 3: mean Whitey Bulger himself admitted that that you know, he

431
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 3: belonged in prison, that you know, these are they're criminals.

432
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 3: And but what I would say is that you know,

433
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 3: it is it is fascinating, right, I mean, it's it's

434
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 3: fascinating to see how the ingenuity of you know, these

435
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 3: convicts that they're sitting and you know, conspiring together and

436
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 3: kind of finding ways to break the system. And I

437
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 3: think that there's a part that because they didn't hurt

438
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 3: anybody in their crimes, so to speak. That there is

439
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 3: a part I guess that you sort of root for them,

440
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 3: and you know, it's just intriguing, I guess, But and

441
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: it's tough, and there's always a balance, right because I

442
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 3: always think that it's so important that a lot of

443
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: the men that were at Alcatraz they were there for

444
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 3: a reason. They belonged in prison. But I will say,

445
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 3: you know, not to get off topic, that you know,

446
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: I think that there were some great lessons from Alcatraz

447
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 3: that you you know, I love the fact, you know,

448
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 3: especially with Bob and these people, is that the redemption

449
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: stories of Alcatraz are my favorite. And I love the

450
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: people that you know, they they realized that Alcatraz was

451
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: a turning point for them. And the thing that Alcatraz

452
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 3: provided that a lot of other prisons today don't provide

453
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 3: is that it gave them access to learn meaningful skills

454
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 3: that translated into meaningful employment in free society. And I

455
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 3: think that that's kind of the failure today and a

456
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 3: lot of the prisons that they're doing their learning factory

457
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,239
Speaker 3: and things like that, that when they get out, they

458
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 3: can't get jobs because they have criminal record, and on

459
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 3: top of that, they don't really have any skills that

460
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 3: they can use and they don't see any other pathway

461
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 3: to earn a living, so they go back into crime.

462
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 3: And I don't have the answers, you know, I'd fully

463
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 3: admit that I think it's a complex issue because I'm

464
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 3: certainly in no way endorsing a pedophile to be given

465
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 3: a job at a school. But I also think that

466
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: if you have men in prison who you know that

467
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: they're going to be released back into free society, we

468
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 3: have to make sure that we're giving them the skills

469
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 3: and the ability to earn a living so they can

470
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 3: support their family, to keep them out of crime. And

471
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 3: I think that Bob is a great example is that

472
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 3: he got out of prison in June of nineteen sixty five.

473
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 3: He you know, never reoffended. He was a good person

474
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 3: when he got out of it. And let me tell you. You know,

475
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: Bob's story, it's an incredible one. You know, this guy

476
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 3: was robbing banks. There's an incredible story about Bob. I

477
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: remember looking at the news articles that his daughter, you know, Kelly,

478
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: had had shared with me, and you know, it's an

479
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 3: incredible story that at the time the bank actually had weapons.

480
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 3: They had a game rifle and a pistol. And the

481
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 3: bank manager came out after he had been robbed from

482
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 3: Bob and his crime partner, and they he's shooting at him.

483
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 3: You know, there's a shootout as they're leaving the bank.

484
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: So it's something out of a Hollywood film. But they

485
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: were young, you know. Bob I think was twenty four

486
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 3: when he was robbing banks. And that's no excuse, but

487
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: but I do think that recognizing a lot of these men,

488
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: and I've met so many that you know, they recognized

489
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: that they had made some really fatal mistakes in their life,

490
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 3: and Alcatraz was a turning point. And and just to

491
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 3: share with you, you know a lot of these men who

492
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 3: would train, you know, they'd become an X ray tech.

493
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 3: One of them who I was just in awe of

494
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 3: is that, you know, he became a surgical tech. And

495
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 3: in talking with him, he learned all those skills at

496
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 3: Alcatraz and and surgical texts make a lot of money,

497
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 3: and he did really well in free society. So you

498
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 3: sort of have to applaud that recognizing and then and

499
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: then I'm on the other extreme too, you know, I'm

500
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 3: I'm often criticized. You know, I'm a believer in the

501
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 3: death penalty. I think that certain crimes, you know, that

502
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 3: it earns them a valor in prison, which I think

503
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 3: is just unacceptable to me, you know, the cop killers

504
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: and those brutal people. So I think that it's a

505
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 3: complex issue that I certainly have no answers to. But

506
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 3: you know, I do think that there's some lessons from

507
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 3: Alcatraz that we could all take away from that model.

508
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: Well, I will piggyback on one thing you said. There

509
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: is no such thing as a victimless crime.

510
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,719
Speaker 2: There's just not. Somebody's hurt by it.

511
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: Somebody has to pay financially for it, So I will

512
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: say that. And I also, you know, I don't want

513
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: to focus too much on Robert, but you mentioned, you know,

514
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: his bank Robin, and I just want to tell people

515
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: I think Robert had the greatest getaway via hicle ever

516
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: in history, which was the USS Franklin, Delan and Roosevelt.

517
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: Just freaking brilliant.

518
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: You know, anybody can have a fast car or a

519
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: train or just run. But I just his story is amazing.

520
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about Robert Moore, I'm sure at another

521
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: time but I want to go back to Cell Block B.

522
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: They actually had a workstation where they could go and

523
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: develop some of their tools and get their paints together

524
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: to make the mask and that sort of thing.

525
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 2: Will you talk about that a little bit.

526
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: It was really crafty what they did. Bolter had stated

527
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: that they had really examined a lot of different escape

528
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: attempts at other prisons. One of the people they had

529
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: looked at was the great escape of Willie Sutton out

530
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 3: of Eastern State Penitentiary, where he had actually used a

531
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,239
Speaker 3: very similar you know, plaster head to kind of you know,

532
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: full officers when he escaped and went through a time.

533
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: The only problem with his mask for me were those eyelashes.

534
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 2: Honey.

535
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's amazing that Bultra had indicated, like everybody

536
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: knew Sutton's story, and it was something that while obviously

537
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 3: they wouldn't have had, you know, Sutton's book in the prison,

538
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: but everybody was aware of it. And one of the

539
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 3: things that these guys were always doing is that they're

540
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: out on the yard and they're just talking with each

541
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 3: other and sort of bouncing ideas off each other to

542
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 3: see like what would be the best thing that would

543
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: work and so it was I think very ingenious that

544
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: they were able to collect hair. They actually were able

545
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 3: to collect oil paints that they were using for portrait

546
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 3: painting in their cells.

547
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: They had flesh tone paint.

548
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 3: Yes, and you know flesh tone paints. And the Anglans,

549
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: by the way, were very good artists. I mean, if

550
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 3: you look at some of the porch that they were

551
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 3: painting at their girlfriends, I mean, these were these were

552
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 3: actually really really well done, you know, and very skilled.

553
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: The idea that they were able to collect so many

554
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: different items, and then just the artistic element of sculpting

555
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: these heads with different materials. I mean, it's kind of

556
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 3: interesting because many many years ago, when I had went

557
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: in and they had showed me the heads they had,

558
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: this is many years ago. Of course, you couldn't handle

559
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 3: them today, but you know, the gentleman and the archivist,

560
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: you know, he let me hold one of them and

561
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: it was very light, you know, clearly it was just

562
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: made from plaster. And then when he handed me the

563
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 3: next one, I almost dropped it because it was all

564
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: cement and it was like you should have warned me,

565
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 3: you know, it was it was amazing, but they used

566
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: different materials. The heads I think were very convincing. You know,

567
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: you have to remember that this would have been in

568
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: the middle of the night with you know, low lighting

569
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 3: for an officer, and somebody who was not you know,

570
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 3: shining their flashlight into a cell probably would have never

571
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: even noticed. And the grills that they created to sort

572
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: of trick officers were they looked incredibly good. It's just

573
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 3: fascinating how much thought into the details that they put

574
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: into it and to pull it off that it just

575
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 3: I don't think the officers would have ever expected something

576
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: that elaborate.

577
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: Well, just like you were saying, the way they brought

578
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: the hair in, that's the same kind of way that

579
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: they took some of the you know, residue and all

580
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: that from their sawing out. They just put it in

581
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: their pockets and when they got in the yard, they

582
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: just dropped it right there on the ground. I mean,

583
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: nobody would have ever noticed that exactly.

584
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,239
Speaker 3: And it's really interesting because they were also you know,

585
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: one of the few benefits that they were able to

586
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: you know, they were able to work and earn money,

587
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 3: and then also they were allowed to have magazine subscriptions,

588
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: so they were you know, using popular science articles on

589
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: there was one on how to make your own decoys

590
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: for duck hunting, and so they used the vulcanizing methods

591
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 3: to actually put together their raft from the incos that

592
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 3: they had put together.

593
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one thing that blew my mind when I

594
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: learned that. I thought, that's beyond genius.

595
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and anybody, you know, you should kind of google

596
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: their life vest for example, and take a look at

597
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 3: some of the FBI photos of the life veest. And

598
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: they're incredible looking. I mean they look in my mind,

599
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 3: they look professionally done. The one that they found that

600
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 3: you had mentioned actually held air for over forty five minutes.

601
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 3: I mean, it was pretty amazing. So when you look

602
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: at the ainguity to everything that went into that, the

603
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 3: escape itself is really really fascinating to me.

604
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: So they made a drill, and I want people to understand,

605
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: so that they're in prison, in a maximum security prison,

606
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: toughest one in the world, and they get a motor

607
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: from a broken vacuum cleaner and make a drill.

608
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: So the drills were kind of amazing because in one

609
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 3: case they used like barber shears. They used the motor

610
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 3: of that and we're able to put a drill bit

611
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 3: to it, which was not successful. And then Alan West

612
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: had found that in one of the vacuum cleaners it

613
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 3: actually had two motors, so he removed one of the

614
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: motors and it actually had kind of a spinning like

615
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 3: a cylinder, and he was effectively able to take a

616
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: drill bit and put it into that. But believe it

617
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 3: or not, they ended up abandoning those because they were

618
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: too loud. They felt that they would have been, you know,

619
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 3: probably discovered with the noises that were being made. So

620
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 3: they did try a variety of different things, and then

621
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 3: what ended up being used was that they were able

622
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 3: to secure star drills, which are just very thin they

623
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 3: look like almost like wooden dowls, so to speak, and

624
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: they were able to use those to very slowly kind

625
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 3: of drill a hole and then they would kind of

626
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 3: blow out the dust from the cement and they made

627
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 3: a holes all the way around the grill. There was

628
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: a small ventilation grill in the cell. And then they

629
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 3: took spoons, these very heavy spoons that they were able

630
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: to secure from the dining hall and then cut the

631
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 3: heads of the spoon off and then sort of use

632
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 3: that as a tool. And it's pretty remarkable. I think

633
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 3: that if you're able to kind of google around and

634
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: you can see some of the photos of their cells,

635
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 3: it's just kind of ingenious, you know, that they were

636
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 3: able to pull that off, you know, all under the

637
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 3: noses of these officers.

638
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: Well you kind of mentioned, you know, that some of

639
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: the guards might have been a little relaxed, because again,

640
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: whoever would have believed this would have occurred. And they

641
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: did a few things, like some of the inmates complained

642
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: about having the flashlights right in their face during the evening,

643
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: So you don't want to just incite people. But if

644
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: you were to bounce that flashlight off the ceiling, I

645
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: mean talk about low lighting.

646
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you're not going to get a real good

647
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: picture of them.

648
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 1: And if you see a head and you see hair,

649
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: I mean, move on.

650
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 3: They're there exactly. And I think that you know, by

651
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 3: that time, I you know, I kind of felt bad

652
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: for the officer. I mean, you know, Whitey Bulger. Initially,

653
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: by the way, I remember he had sort of recounted

654
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 3: the story. There was an officer who they all called

655
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 3: Herman the German, and that you know, I thought it

656
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,959
Speaker 3: was kind of odd that he would have come out

657
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 3: and you know, confided with you know, the you know,

658
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 3: any of the convicts, but he had claimed that he

659
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: did come out, and he was, you know, saying that

660
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 3: they're going to blame it all on me. You know,

661
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 3: I'm in trouble for this. And then sure enough, you know,

662
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 3: later on finding this memo that you know, he wasn't

663
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 3: doing the counts and that he acknowledged that he didn't

664
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: do the count that night. You know, I think that

665
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 3: there's it's it's a complacency, but but I felt bad

666
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: for him in a sense that too, that you know,

667
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 3: here he is walking this you know, the cell block

668
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 3: corridor and white like he's done probably a thousand times before.

669
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 3: And who would have thought, you know, in the middle

670
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: of the cell block that these men could have made

671
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: their way out. And I think that you know, the

672
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 3: convicts that were all always very keen to observe the

673
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: behaviors of the officers. I mean that's something that they

674
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 3: watched very closely. And so as you can imagine, you know,

675
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: it was a pretty major failure in the end where

676
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: these men you know, escaped at the time from the

677
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 3: most you know, inescapable prison and with a very you know,

678
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: low convict population. So you know, the ratio of officers

679
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 3: to inmates was about one officer to every three inmates,

680
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: so as you could imagine, I mean, that's a pretty

681
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 3: big number. And to think that they were able to

682
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: get away with it and you know, pull off something

683
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: like that, it's just it's still a little perplexing to

684
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 3: me even after all these years. And it's still the

685
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: great mystery, right, I mean, it's one of the most

686
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: famous escapes. You know, I was captured by it as

687
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 3: a kid too, and it's incredible that today we're still

688
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: trying to debate, you know, the face of these men.

689
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit because we have mentioned music hour

690
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: more than once, but talk a little bit about the

691
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: accordion and what it was used for.

692
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 3: So Frank Morris and these are all you know, like

693
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: within the archives you could actually see that he was

694
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 3: able to secure this instrument, which is very accordion likes

695
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: called the concertina. Kind of reminds me of the instrument

696
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: that you would see like in the parts of the

697
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: Caribbean where they have the you know, it's almost like

698
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 3: a squeeze box, so to speak. And he was able

699
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 3: to secure this instrument that he ordered with the money

700
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: that he had earned through a catalog. He actually removed

701
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 3: the reeds out of it and created kind of a

702
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 3: valve to where he could use it as a bellow,

703
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: to where he could actually inflate the raft. And so

704
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 3: what's interesting is that it was missing out of his cell.

705
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 3: It was never found, so they clearly took it with

706
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 3: them and then they used it to inflate the raft.

707
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 3: And you know, many things like that I think are

708
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: so amazing that you know the detail that went into

709
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 3: every little piece. And they had also created a second

710
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: raft that was discovered up on top of the cell

711
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 3: block that was unused, and you could see where the

712
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: valve that they had created to blow it up was.

713
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 3: It's kind of amazing, you know, it was very elaborate.

714
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 3: I think that that was kind of the prototype that

715
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 3: they used. And then you know, the real raft I

716
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 3: bet I would expect was probably designed and built and crafted,

717
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 3: you know, much better than that one.

718
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 1: Just brilliant, right, I mean, sometimes it seems so simple,

719
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: and this to me was almost a perfect storm. If

720
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: the guards were relaxed or skipped, that one check not

721
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: resonating with you that hey that's flesh tone, you know,

722
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: not noticing that they're not sweeping the hair up, maybe

723
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: that it's in their pants, not noticing that, hey, that

724
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: suitcase moved from over there to over there and might

725
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: be hiding something, you know. I mean the cardboard is missing,

726
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: the saws are missing, fifty raincoats. I mean, I don't

727
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: think there's any excuse that you've missed that. I mean,

728
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: a spoon I might can get with, but fifty raincoats

729
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: is that's a lot.

730
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, this is thing you got to

731
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 3: keep in mind that it literally was I would say,

732
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 3: you know, almost a year in planning. So this is

733
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: something that they did over a long period of time.

734
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 3: You know, Frank Morris was working in the brush shop.

735
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 3: You know, he was able to get glues and other

736
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 3: you know, other glues that they could use to help

737
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: kind of seal the raft. I mean, they were able

738
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 3: to secure so many different types of materials to help

739
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 3: them kind of you know, affect this escape. It was very,

740
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 3: very elaborate and pretty amazing to me. I still, you know,

741
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: when I whenever I go back to the island, I'm

742
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 3: still in awe when I walk in front of those cells.

743
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 3: It really was kind of pulling off the impossible, if

744
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 3: you will.

745
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: Well I think you would agree with the number of

746
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: interviews that you have done, in the relationships that you

747
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: have built, that you cannot meet and get to know

748
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: and understand these inmates without befriending them.

749
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean, you know, I mean for me, you know,

750
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 3: it's an I mean this sincerely that you know, I'm

751
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 3: always a little bit hesitant with them as I kind

752
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 3: of get to know a lot of them and when

753
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 3: I would do interviews, because you know, I recognize that

754
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 3: they were criminals, you know, and many of them, you know,

755
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 3: I'm always admire the ones that made it out of

756
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 3: prison and kind of you know, made positive changes in

757
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 3: their life. But there was some that I interviewed that

758
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 3: you know, of course, still have that element to them,

759
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 3: if you will. But it is interesting that you kind

760
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 3: of as you learn, you know, the you know, I

761
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 3: think Whitey Bullser said it best. He said, you know,

762
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 3: he kind of likened it to the time that he

763
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 3: was there. He was there for about the same time

764
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 3: that you would you know, in high school, so you know,

765
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 3: about four years. Bob was there for five years. You

766
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: really create some close bonds with these individuals. They you know,

767
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 3: these men, they had close relationships with each other, and

768
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 3: I think that they were very loyal to each other.

769
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: And the other thing that I'm you know, really fascinated

770
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 3: with is that on the other side of the cells,

771
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 3: you know, Alcatraz was sort of a mirror of society

772
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 3: at that time, and so it was segregated to some degree,

773
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 3: and on the opposite side of the cell block that

774
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: they would have been very aware of what was going on,

775
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 3: were the African American inmates right on the other side,

776
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: And they never, I mean they would have had they

777
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: would have been able to benefit by kind of ratting

778
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 3: them out and letting officers know. I mean, they could

779
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 3: have had their time reduced, they could have got off

780
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 3: the island. But they never said a word. Everybody could

781
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 3: cover this up for everybody, which is incredible and for me,

782
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 3: you know, I mean I have to say that it's

783
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 3: been fascinating, you know, a gift in many ways for

784
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: me to get to know a lot of them. I

785
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: always feel a little bit guilty about saying that. You know,

786
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 3: I didn't know Whitey Bulger obviously when he was a criminal,

787
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 3: but you know, I liked him. You know, he was

788
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 3: a very interesting person to talk to, and he had

789
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 3: a good sense of the history there men like Bob,

790
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 3: you and I both have a common friend, and Kelly

791
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 3: his daughter, And you know, I love Kelly. She I

792
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 3: think that Kelly, who loves the history of Alcatraz, really

793
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: pushed Bob to sort of share his story as well.

794
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 3: And their stories are fascinating. And that's always incredible to

795
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 3: me that there's just so many stories of these men,

796
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 3: it's never ending.

797
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kelly has honored her dad in a brilliant, beautiful way.

798
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: To me, no question. She understands exactly who he was

799
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: before her and after her, and I think that's important

800
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,439
Speaker 1: for any child. But I want to tell you one thing.

801
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 1: When I was meeting with Bob at his house, we

802
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: got to laughing because he said, after we talked, you know,

803
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: per pretty good minute, he was laughing saying, well, you

804
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: know as much about inmates as I do. You sound

805
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: like a convict when you talk, which made me laugh.

806
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: And he said, let's have a drink. And I was like, now, Bob,

807
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: I got to drive after this, so I can't celebrate

808
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: too much with you.

809
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 2: But he said, listen.

810
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: He said, I don't cook for people, but I do

811
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: understand vodka.

812
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 2: And so this is what he told me.

813
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: He said, you take down a glass, you get a

814
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 1: bottle of vodka, you twist off the cap, you pour

815
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: the glass about halfway full. Now you leave the cap

816
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: off because you know you're coming back. Then he said,

817
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: sit and sit with a friend and tell stories about

818
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: your life of crime and your life after, and then

819
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: laugh about how much you hate comps. And then he

820
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 1: said round two repeat, which that to me was bob.

821
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: So again to your.

822
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: Point, I know what his past was, but I also

823
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: know the family that he made and the love that

824
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: he shared. And you know, he went straight, and so

825
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: you got to admire that too, because he could have

826
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: got out and been angry and bitter and did harm

827
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: and he chose not to.

828
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's important, you know. I mean,

829
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 3: I I really you know, I love law enforcement. You know,

830
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 3: I think that a lot of these men and women

831
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 3: it's a really tough job to sort of work in

832
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 3: those environments and you know, working crimes and things like that.

833
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 3: But I have to say that, you know, I do

834
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 3: admire the people that you know, I've met a lot

835
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: of men, a lot of time with them, and those

836
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 3: that really did change their life. I think that you know,

837
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 3: a lot of people when they're young do make mistakes,

838
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 3: and I'm in no way trying to make excuses for them.

839
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 3: I mean, they committed crimes, but they did their time

840
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 3: and those I mean, I think Kelly's a great example

841
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 3: that you know, this was not a person who was

842
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: a horrible father, you know. I mean, I think that

843
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 3: somebody who acknowledges their past and he made amends and

844
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 3: tried to be a better human being. I think a

845
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 3: lot goes to say that, you know, with that, and

846
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 3: I like Bob.

847
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: He was a character by the way, he was an

848
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 2: absolute character, no question.

849
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: Michael Slinger. Did they make it? Did they survive?

850
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 3: Wow? You know, I always feel like I let people

851
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 3: down when I try to answer the question because I

852
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 3: am not on the fence on anything in my life.

853
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 3: I have an opinion, but I would say that, you know,

854
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 3: ten twenty years ago, I was absolutely adamant that there's

855
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: no way that they survived. And what I would say

856
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 3: today is is that, you know, I think it was

857
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: Carl Sagan that you know, had the great quote that

858
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 3: you know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I will

859
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: say that there's a lot more evidence today. That kind

860
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 3: of pushed me to the fence where I think if

861
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 3: they were to discovered that they had made it, I

862
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 3: would absolutely not be shocked because I think that I

863
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 3: believe that there is a real chance that those men survived.

864
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 3: But the other part of it is is that, you know,

865
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 3: I'm still suspect that, you know, you would think that

866
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 3: there would have been more evidence that we'd see today

867
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: that had they survived, whether they went on to have

868
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: their families and things like that. It's just surprising that

869
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 3: it's surprising that there's not more evidence that they survived.

870
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 3: But but again, you know, we've you know, done a

871
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 3: lot of research. I mean, there was bones that were

872
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 3: found less than a year later up by point raise.

873
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: It's pretty much been proven that, you know, those bones

874
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 3: did not belong to Frank Morris or the Anglans. I mean,

875
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 3: it's for every piece of evidence that suggests they died,

876
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 3: there's another piece of evidence that comes up that suggests

877
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 3: that they lived. And I think that you know, here

878
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 3: we are today, you know, sixty years later, still debating

879
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 3: whether or not, you know, we believe that they made

880
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 3: it or not. And I think the story is so

881
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 3: compelling and I hope that someday it's something that will

882
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 3: be solved, that will learn the truth about what happened.

883
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: And I still believe that in my heart it's still

884
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 3: a solvable case that you know, somewhere out there is

885
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 3: you know, there's evidence of you know, what the outcome was,

886
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: and I'm hoping, I'm hoping that I'll I'll learn that,

887
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 3: you know, learn the truth at some point.

888
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I

889
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: always do with a quote there's something addictive about sacrets.

890
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 2: Jay, Yeah, Gohover. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven.

891
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: The Black

892
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: As a