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Speaker 1: One of our our favorite fellows to talk to. Jay

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Speaker 1: Cost is the author of a handful of great books,

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Speaker 1: including the Price of Greatness, Alexander Hamilton's, James Madison, Hamilton's

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Speaker 1: I Swear to God. Next time you do that, I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to write in the mouth and the creation

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Speaker 1: of American oligarchy and a republic no more big government

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Speaker 1: in the Rise of American Political Corruption. Jay Cost is

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Speaker 1: visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and joins us. Now, Jay,

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Speaker 1: how are you, sir? I'm great. How are you guys doing?

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Speaker 1: You know, we're we're struggling along, you know how it is, ups, downs,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. Did you write your Hamilton's book before the

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Speaker 1: musical phenomenon are after? Oh? No, it was after? Wow?

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Speaker 1: Was that annoying? I mean, you're right working in a

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Speaker 1: book for a while, and no. Actually, it was gonna

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Speaker 1: originally just be about Madison, and it was my dissertation

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Speaker 1: James Madison, and my dissertation advisers suggested I throw Hamilton

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Speaker 1: into the title as well, because it's kind of as

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Speaker 1: I was writing, it was kind of about both of them,

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Speaker 1: and you should should put him into you know, why not? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let's got your interest. Though looked up lately I

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Speaker 1: saw I did not get a chance to read, and

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Speaker 1: I apologize for that, but you're Washington Examiner magazine cover story,

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Speaker 1: American Hangover. What's that all about? Yeah, it's about just

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Speaker 1: how the problem with our party system is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we just have all these crazy people in politics nowadays. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, like Alexandra Cafeo Cortes and that Alian Omar

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Speaker 1: from Minnesota, and you know, and they just seem to

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Speaker 1: be running the show like the the inmates are kind

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Speaker 1: of running the asylum. And the point that I make

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Speaker 1: in the in the Examiner article is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: we actually created our political parties in part to stop

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Speaker 1: things like that from happening, to create order, uh in

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Speaker 1: our political process, so that the people could actually rule.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can't have a go you can't have

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Speaker 1: representative democracy if you just have chaos. Um. And the

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Speaker 1: problem is is that we've just we don't like the

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Speaker 1: parties as Americans, we don't like the parties. We think

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Speaker 1: they're gross, and we've sort of just let them sort

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Speaker 1: of wither on the vine. Um. And and so the

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Speaker 1: parties are no longer able to like check these crazies,

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Speaker 1: um and organize politics until we just have chaos. Now

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Speaker 1: we were headed that direction, I think, regardless. But then

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Speaker 1: you throw in social media where an AOC can reach

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Speaker 1: millions of people and go around Nancy Pelosi in a

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Speaker 1: way that just wouldn't have been able to happen a

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Speaker 1: few years ago. Now, Jay, I find myself totally right,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's a good point. Um, I find myself wondering,

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Speaker 1: are you let me put it like this? I think

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Speaker 1: what you're describing is much like the creative destruction of capitalism.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely necessary and healthy. I think the parties are

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Speaker 1: getting absolutely nothing they don't richly deserve, and it is

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Speaker 1: a period through which they must pass and they will

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Speaker 1: either end up the better for it or gone. H

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Speaker 1: what do you say? I think the problem that we

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Speaker 1: have with the parties has more to do with um that. Look,

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Speaker 1: the parties are not They're anti k you know, They're

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Speaker 1: anti capitalism, really is what they are. The parties are

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Speaker 1: sort of supposed to be a cartel, right, They're supposed

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Speaker 1: to deny access to certain groups or people who are

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Speaker 1: just going to disrupt things, right and ideally what we

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Speaker 1: want them to do is function as a cartel to

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Speaker 1: give Americans a choice you want policy, set of policy

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Speaker 1: A or set of policy B, and if they vote

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Speaker 1: for A over B, then A actually gets done. And

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Speaker 1: that's how you get republican government right by controlling access

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Speaker 1: to the voters right. And the problem in the past

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Speaker 1: is the parties have not done a very good job

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Speaker 1: of this. But rather than reform the parties, we've just

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Speaker 1: been like, Okay, well we have to get where we

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Speaker 1: have to take away all power from them, so they're

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Speaker 1: not functioning like that at all. And so like like

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Speaker 1: as you said, any nut job who's good on social

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Speaker 1: media can end up dominating the political conversation right where

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Speaker 1: it's like a hundred years ago, somebody like a Casio

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Speaker 1: Cortez would be able to get anywhere near politics with

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Speaker 1: because she would just that that sort of nonsense would

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Speaker 1: just be completely unacceptable. Well you know her policies aside,

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Speaker 1: even if you got elected, you just you wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: had any power. She's she's she's the most known powerful

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Speaker 1: freshman congress person ever and that's entirely, well not entirely.

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Speaker 1: Her personality and ideas have play a role, but without

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Speaker 1: social media, wouldn't matter what her personality ideas are, how

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Speaker 1: cute she was, It wouldn't made any difference totally. And

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Speaker 1: the problem is is that she had up dominating come

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Speaker 1: versation and this. And the problem with this is that

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Speaker 1: you know, the the election in two thousand eighteen, well,

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Speaker 1: what ends up just empowering Cacio Cortets right, when none

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Speaker 1: of us voted for her. I mean she got like

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand votes in Brooklyn, right, and so are the

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Speaker 1: point The problem is is that when you don't have

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Speaker 1: the parties actually in control and actually able to control

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Speaker 1: people in government, that our vote choices don't actually mean anything.

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Speaker 1: None of us voted for this woman, and certainly very

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Speaker 1: few of us who voted in the two thousand eighteen

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Speaker 1: elections thought oh well we should have a big old

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Speaker 1: conversation about this goofball green new deal program. Right, That's

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Speaker 1: not what the election in two thousand eighteen was about.

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Speaker 1: And that's the problem is it's the end. If you

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Speaker 1: don't have strong parties, then elections end up oftentimes being

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Speaker 1: about nothing, Right, They don't actually have any kind of

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Speaker 1: real policy impact because you just get these random people,

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Speaker 1: you know, using social media or whatever. I think that

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Speaker 1: might be where we're headed. And whether you like it

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Speaker 1: or not, I think that might be. That's what Betto

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Speaker 1: is betting on. Betto is betting on you don't need

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Speaker 1: to have a policy position. You're really good on social media.

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Speaker 1: You look pretty good and and you can win that way.

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Speaker 1: I hope he's wrong. Yeah, that's a that Look, that

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Speaker 1: is a real problem in our system of government. Ideally speaking,

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Speaker 1: the people are supposed to rule it for the for

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Speaker 1: the way that that happened is that you have your

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Speaker 1: vote for an individual has to translate into a vote

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Speaker 1: for a policy agenda. And if if that's how the

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Speaker 1: people actually governed themselves, right, that's how representative democracy actually

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Speaker 1: becomes republican small our republican government. Right, you vote for

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Speaker 1: a playbook, then tell your congress people in your senators

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Speaker 1: go run these plays right. Right, But now now we're

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Speaker 1: you know, like Betto, look at your point, right, Bett,

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Speaker 1: Oh just looks great on a skateboard. Mary is getting

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Speaker 1: his you know, teeth caps, so you know we're gonna

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Speaker 1: vote for him. That's not republican, small our government. That's

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Speaker 1: just you know, really that it's just nonsense, is what

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Speaker 1: it is. We end up getting just this kick happey

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Speaker 1: in our politics that frustrates everybody, turns everybody off, undermines

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Speaker 1: faith in our system of government, and reduces the republican

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Speaker 1: quality of our system. Well, Jay, sometimes empires end, not

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Speaker 1: everything lasts forever. I was heartbroken when ab broke up,

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Speaker 1: but I had to accept that. For instance, Jay Cost

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Speaker 1: is the author of the Price of Greatness, Alexander Hamilton,

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Speaker 1: James Madison, the creation of American oligarchy, which is so good.

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Speaker 1: You know, Just one more quick point for me on

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Speaker 1: the political parties, I could deal with all of this

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Speaker 1: a little better if there are three, four, five of them, um,

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Speaker 1: instead of the the insidious duopoly that we have now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like you're almost arguing for a

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Speaker 1: return to strength for the parties. But again, I think

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Speaker 1: they they squandered that. I think we need to move

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Speaker 1: to something. Well, that would be something. What if what

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Speaker 1: if my aunt at Balls Jack well as your own,

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Speaker 1: Jay Cost, Probably now would probably be a good time

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Speaker 1: for you your dignity to end in the other direction. Um.

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Speaker 1: But but hey, listen up. We can't wait to hear

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Speaker 1: what your next project is. Uh. And and it's always

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Speaker 1: fun to talk. Thanks, Jay, Jay cost visiting scholar American Enterprisence.

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Speaker 1: We should do a long form podcast with him because

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Speaker 1: I had more questions and yeah, yeah, his big thing,

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Speaker 1: if you don't know Jay, is political corruption. How and

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Speaker 1: listen my friends on the left and right and center

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Speaker 1: and the rest of it. He hates crony capitalism, He

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Speaker 1: hates lobbyists and corporate goons controlling the policy of this country.

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Speaker 1: That's really his thing um. And we didn't quite get

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Speaker 1: there in that discussion, but I thought it was pretty interesting. Yeah,