WEBVTT - Being Victimized by Scams is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.276 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. There are only 0:00:24.316 --> 0:00:29.556 a few real cons that exist, and the bones of 0:00:29.596 --> 0:00:31.676 the story are the same, and they've been the same 0:00:31.716 --> 0:00:36.356 for centuries. Author Maria Khanikova has been writing about these 0:00:36.396 --> 0:00:39.716 stories for a number of years. Her book The Confidence 0:00:39.756 --> 0:00:43.476 Game explores stories of con artists, opportunists, the people who 0:00:43.556 --> 0:00:45.956 build up our trust and then take everything we have. 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:49.836 I think Bernie made off the late investor who destroyed 0:00:49.876 --> 0:00:55.076 countless lives with false promises and financial theft. But before 0:00:55.076 --> 0:00:58.356 we pledge to fight to abolish all scams, remember this 0:00:58.476 --> 0:01:02.356 another side to those familiar stories too, The flip side 0:01:02.516 --> 0:01:07.756 of our vulnerability too, cons is human connection and trust 0:01:07.796 --> 0:01:10.596 and all the good stuff. So how do we protect 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:14.116 our loved ones and ourselves? Will scams be an enduring 0:01:14.196 --> 0:01:18.356 part of society forever because we refuse or are unable 0:01:18.436 --> 0:01:21.476 to learn from our mistakes Rather than admitting, Yep, I 0:01:21.556 --> 0:01:24.436 was dumb. I fell for a scam. You say, oh no, no, 0:01:24.916 --> 0:01:27.636 Here are all of the mitigating circumstances and it probably 0:01:27.716 --> 0:01:30.476 wasn't even a scam. So I think that it takes 0:01:30.516 --> 0:01:35.756 a strong person because it's embarrassing, it's embarrassing, because embarrassing 0:01:35.756 --> 0:01:40.156 to admit it. So can scams be solved? Maria Kannakova thinks, 0:01:40.156 --> 0:01:49.316 so being victimized by a scam is actually a solvable problem. 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:52.516 Maria has gone from investigating the lies we tell ourselves 0:01:52.636 --> 0:01:55.956 to mastering the bluff herself by learning to play poker 0:01:56.156 --> 0:01:59.036 at a world class level and writing about that too. 0:01:59.716 --> 0:02:02.156 So I started by asking her why she's so hooked 0:02:02.196 --> 0:02:06.996 on these concepts of big and small manipulations. My first 0:02:07.036 --> 0:02:11.436 book was about Charlock, So I've kind of traveled this 0:02:11.636 --> 0:02:14.996 gamut from you know, how do you be a detective? Too? Okay, 0:02:14.996 --> 0:02:17.316 what are the what are the bad guys doing? To 0:02:17.476 --> 0:02:21.196 kind of being the bad guy myself but within a game, right, so, 0:02:21.636 --> 0:02:24.996 so there are rules. And one of the reasons that 0:02:25.196 --> 0:02:29.516 I've that it's been such a passion of mine is 0:02:29.516 --> 0:02:33.436 that I hate to see in reality, not in a game. 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:36.756 I hate to see people being taken advantage of, and 0:02:36.796 --> 0:02:40.956 how often that happens, and how scammers often will target 0:02:41.036 --> 0:02:45.636 the most vulnerable parts of our population, the most vulnerable people, 0:02:45.916 --> 0:02:48.796 and then we as a society target them again by 0:02:48.796 --> 0:02:52.116 blaming them and by saying, oh, well, you were just 0:02:52.156 --> 0:02:55.036 stupid you were just greedy, you were just dumb. You know, 0:02:55.076 --> 0:02:57.356 you shouldn't have fallen for it. I wouldn't have fallen 0:02:57.396 --> 0:03:00.156 for it, and that just gets me. Yeah, well, I 0:03:00.196 --> 0:03:02.836 was going to ask you because of your long standing interest. 0:03:02.876 --> 0:03:04.796 I mean, is this personal for you in any way? 0:03:04.836 --> 0:03:08.356 Have you been scammed yourself or people close to you 0:03:08.516 --> 0:03:12.716 been victim of scams? I personally have not been scammed 0:03:12.756 --> 0:03:14.916 that I know of, but one point I always make 0:03:15.036 --> 0:03:17.876 is that you know, the best scams are ones that 0:03:17.956 --> 0:03:21.516 you're probably not aware of. So I'm sure I've been 0:03:21.516 --> 0:03:26.636 scammed on small things. And when you're about to get 0:03:26.676 --> 0:03:30.916 on the subway, someone stops you and says, hey, you know, 0:03:30.956 --> 0:03:34.516 I'm so sorry. I lost my wallet. Do you have 0:03:34.556 --> 0:03:37.236 the fare for the subway, for the bus, for the train. 0:03:37.316 --> 0:03:40.396 I need to get back to my family. And there's 0:03:40.436 --> 0:03:43.436 so many excuses, and you can do one of two things. 0:03:43.476 --> 0:03:46.356 You can say I think you're a con artist. I'm 0:03:46.396 --> 0:03:48.396 not going to give you any money and walk on. 0:03:48.836 --> 0:03:50.756 You feel kind of shitty, You feel like a bad 0:03:50.836 --> 0:03:53.916 person because what if they actually needed you. I've lost 0:03:53.996 --> 0:03:57.036 my wallet, I've needed help in the past, and I 0:03:57.076 --> 0:04:00.356 think we've all probably been on the other side of that, 0:04:00.916 --> 0:04:03.956 And so the trade off is, yeah, maybe you get scammed, 0:04:04.396 --> 0:04:07.996 but I'd rather take the risk of being the victim 0:04:08.076 --> 0:04:12.076 of a scammer and particular instance, and I'm sure I've 0:04:12.116 --> 0:04:14.916 been scammed that way. Well, that's interesting. I mean, I 0:04:14.956 --> 0:04:18.516 have an experience that still sticks with me from high school. 0:04:18.556 --> 0:04:21.156 I remember in Chicago, where I was growing up, walking 0:04:21.156 --> 0:04:23.876 through Lincoln Park and there was a guy kind of 0:04:23.956 --> 0:04:27.036 ragged looking walking with a gas can, and he stopped 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:29.956 me and told me this whole sad story about how 0:04:29.956 --> 0:04:32.636 he was trying to get back to Florida to see 0:04:32.636 --> 0:04:34.676 his family and his card run out of gas and 0:04:34.716 --> 0:04:37.036 he needed the money for gas. Now, I was probably 0:04:37.036 --> 0:04:39.276 fifteen years old or something like that, but I think 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:40.836 I gave him ten dollars, which would have been a 0:04:40.876 --> 0:04:44.076 lot of money to me at the time, and I 0:04:44.196 --> 0:04:46.436 felt kind of good about myself for doing that. And 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:48.116 then a week later I was walking through the park 0:04:48.116 --> 0:04:49.956 and there was the same guy walking around with his 0:04:50.076 --> 0:04:54.636 gas can, and you know, it just it sticks with 0:04:54.716 --> 0:04:59.756 you because it's a sort of formative experience of misplaced trust. 0:05:00.316 --> 0:05:02.476 You know, the cure or can be worse than the disease, 0:05:02.596 --> 0:05:04.956 right if the cure is to be mistrustful of people 0:05:05.356 --> 0:05:08.676 and to be kind of hard shelled and not have 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:12.236 empathy for people who seem to be in a bad 0:05:12.316 --> 0:05:15.916 situation because they might be scamming you. That's not a 0:05:15.916 --> 0:05:21.636 good outcome either. I couldn't agree more. I actually saw 0:05:21.676 --> 0:05:26.796 that sentiment phrased in the most beautiful way by Ricky Jay, 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:30.436 who was a lifelong student of the Khan. He was 0:05:30.676 --> 0:05:34.356 fascinated by them, and he wasn't he wasn't just a magician. 0:05:34.436 --> 0:05:37.316 He was someone who really enjoyed kind of that dark side. 0:05:37.676 --> 0:05:40.556 And he said once in an interview, he said, I 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:43.236 wouldn't want to live in a world where we can't 0:05:43.276 --> 0:05:47.116 get conned, because that's a world where you can't believe 0:05:47.236 --> 0:05:51.836 in anyone or anything. And I think that there's a 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:55.476 lot of truth to that that the flip side of 0:05:55.476 --> 0:06:00.596 our vulnerability to cons is human connection and trust and 0:06:00.636 --> 0:06:04.196 all the good stuff. And so it's it's one of 0:06:04.236 --> 0:06:07.876 these things where, you know, do we want to solve 0:06:08.156 --> 0:06:11.516 all cons forever and ever? I don't actually think we do. 0:06:11.796 --> 0:06:13.436 I think we want to target it and be a 0:06:13.476 --> 0:06:16.556 little bit more specific and say, okay, you know, we 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:21.196 can make ourselves invulnerable to online scams or two kind 0:06:21.236 --> 0:06:24.636 of different scams of that sort. But in terms of 0:06:24.716 --> 0:06:28.796 human to human contact, I think that we're always going 0:06:28.836 --> 0:06:31.476 to have to leave a window open for vulnerability. And 0:06:31.516 --> 0:06:34.476 that's okay, that's really interesting. I want to get into 0:06:34.516 --> 0:06:37.556 the types of scams in a minute, but first I 0:06:37.556 --> 0:06:40.436 want to ask you, just broadly speaking, if we agree 0:06:40.436 --> 0:06:42.636 on that that the solution to scams is not to 0:06:43.316 --> 0:06:46.516 go in mistrustful of everyone you meet, what is the 0:06:46.596 --> 0:06:50.756 way to avoid becoming a victim of scams by actually 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:54.596 being smarter and a little bit more skeptical and a 0:06:54.636 --> 0:06:59.236 little bit less giving of information about ourselves. The modern 0:06:59.316 --> 0:07:03.036 day person has given up privacy in so many ways. 0:07:03.436 --> 0:07:06.716 You know, we have public profiles on all sorts of 0:07:06.756 --> 0:07:11.556 social media where we list really portant information about ourselves. Obviously, 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:13.916 you know you've got the big ones. You know your birthday, 0:07:14.396 --> 0:07:17.956 and every single network keeps wanting to know my birthday 0:07:18.156 --> 0:07:20.276 and keeps reminding me, don't you want people to wish 0:07:20.276 --> 0:07:21.956 you a happy birthday? And I say, you know what, 0:07:21.996 --> 0:07:24.556 I'd rather not thank you, because the people who know 0:07:24.676 --> 0:07:26.236 me and who care about me can wish me a 0:07:26.236 --> 0:07:29.036 happy birthday, and I don't need the world at large 0:07:29.076 --> 0:07:32.636 knowing my birthday. But we also post happy things, you know, 0:07:32.676 --> 0:07:36.716 the birth of children, exactly when they were born, the 0:07:36.876 --> 0:07:40.556 date of the time, their weight, their eye color, all 0:07:40.596 --> 0:07:45.396 of these things, happy moments, sad moments, divorces, marriages, it's 0:07:45.436 --> 0:07:48.396 all out there, and this is all information that can 0:07:48.436 --> 0:07:52.436 be used against us by con artists. I always advocate 0:07:52.476 --> 0:07:55.396 and people look at me like I have twenty heads, 0:07:55.476 --> 0:07:57.796 especially when I'm talking to you know, high school students 0:07:57.876 --> 0:08:00.716 or college students, and they just think that I'm this 0:08:00.996 --> 0:08:04.076 complete monster when I say, you know, make things private, 0:08:04.396 --> 0:08:07.316 don't ever accept friend requests from people you don't know, 0:08:07.756 --> 0:08:10.796 don't share these types of things. And it's one of 0:08:10.796 --> 0:08:15.116 these things where I'm pushing against a tide that I 0:08:15.156 --> 0:08:17.556 think I'm going to lose. But that's kind of something 0:08:17.676 --> 0:08:22.116 really really simple that we can do to actually make 0:08:22.156 --> 0:08:24.676 ourselves less vulnerable. The other thing I would say is 0:08:24.796 --> 0:08:28.676 education actually works. So it turns out when you're looking 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:33.916 at people's susceptibility to cons that if you teach them 0:08:33.996 --> 0:08:37.636 about specific types of cons and what the scripts are 0:08:37.756 --> 0:08:39.916 and how people get to you and what they say 0:08:39.996 --> 0:08:44.076 ahead of time before they're in that hot emotional situation, 0:08:44.436 --> 0:08:46.436 then they're not going to fall for it. So a 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:49.796 great example is the grandparent scam. So you get a 0:08:49.836 --> 0:08:53.956 phone call. Your grandchild has been in an accident. They're 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:56.996 in the hospital. We need money. You can't call their 0:08:56.996 --> 0:08:59.916 parents because they were on drugs. You know, they were 0:08:59.956 --> 0:09:02.636 in Mexico. And oh my god, your grandchild really was 0:09:02.676 --> 0:09:07.356 in Mexico on vacation. Surprise, surprise, Right, social media posts 0:09:07.396 --> 0:09:10.076 you can actually use real information, and so you get 0:09:10.076 --> 0:09:13.916 scared and you wire money. This happens all the time. 0:09:14.236 --> 0:09:16.596 But it turns out that if you actually teach people 0:09:16.676 --> 0:09:19.636 about this scam, they stop falling for it. They'll start 0:09:19.676 --> 0:09:23.116 asking verifying questions. So the old you know what I 0:09:23.156 --> 0:09:26.516 always keep coming back to is what we're taught as 0:09:26.596 --> 0:09:30.876 journalists from the very beginning. Trust but verify, Yeah, verify, verify, 0:09:31.076 --> 0:09:36.196 verify whenever you're making an important decision, whenever you're forging 0:09:36.236 --> 0:09:39.476 a new relationship, especially when there's money involved. But even 0:09:39.516 --> 0:09:42.836 if there's no money involved, verify. Don't take things at 0:09:42.836 --> 0:09:47.396 face value when it's actually important. Yeah, but verify, no 0:09:47.476 --> 0:09:51.636 matter how scared you are. The enemy of verification is convenience, 0:09:51.716 --> 0:09:55.316 I mean, slows you down and it's all the pathwords 0:09:55.356 --> 0:09:58.356 you have to remember and the two step verification you 0:09:58.396 --> 0:10:01.356 know to log on to anything, and you know, often 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:04.756 it's a deterrent to just getting what you want to 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:06.876 do on the thing you want to read or the 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:09.916 thing you want to transact online, and of cour ninety 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:12.236 nine point nine percent of times you'd be fine. So 0:10:12.276 --> 0:10:14.636 it's very tempting not to go through that step in 0:10:14.676 --> 0:10:18.916 the process. Absolutely, I think convenience is the enemy, and 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:22.316 I will add to that, desire is the other enemy. 0:10:22.396 --> 0:10:26.676 That we often want to believe something is true so 0:10:26.756 --> 0:10:29.036 much that we don't want to verify it. I don't 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:31.116 actually know the real origin of the phrase to I 0:10:31.156 --> 0:10:34.196 can help someone who might know. Well. Ronald Reagan made 0:10:34.196 --> 0:10:39.156 it famous when he was opening nuclear negotiations with Mikhail Gorbachev. 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:42.676 And there was a Russian scholars just something I happen 0:10:42.716 --> 0:10:44.636 to know because I wrote a book about Ronald Reagan. 0:10:44.916 --> 0:10:49.236 Suzanne Massey. She was a Russian scholar who his book 0:10:49.396 --> 0:10:52.556 Ronald Reagan read, and he invited her in and she said, 0:10:52.556 --> 0:10:54.236 I want to teach you a phrase in Russian to 0:10:54.516 --> 0:10:57.876 use with Gorbachev. And I can't say it in Russian, 0:10:57.956 --> 0:11:01.036 but it's it's a Russian phrase, trust but verifying, and 0:11:01.116 --> 0:11:03.396 Reagan loved it, and so of course every time he 0:11:03.476 --> 0:11:06.196 kept repeating it and repeating it and every by the 0:11:06.236 --> 0:11:08.916 fifth meeting with GARBAGEV. Garbachev was like, don't say that 0:11:09.116 --> 0:11:13.036 trust verify. Think again. But it is a good it's 0:11:13.076 --> 0:11:15.436 a very good lesson to apply. And you know a 0:11:15.436 --> 0:11:18.516 lot of places, right So imagine we're talking about the 0:11:18.556 --> 0:11:21.636 online environment right now. A lot of scams online happen 0:11:21.676 --> 0:11:25.116 on dating websites where you meet someone and they're not 0:11:25.156 --> 0:11:27.876 who they say there they are, and there's a lot 0:11:27.916 --> 0:11:30.596 of emotional stuff involved. And in that sense, you don't 0:11:30.676 --> 0:11:33.796 verify because of convenience. You don't verify because you want 0:11:33.796 --> 0:11:36.396 to believe in this. You want to believe that it's 0:11:36.476 --> 0:11:39.316 wonderful and it's great, and you're meeting someone who really 0:11:39.356 --> 0:11:42.236 cares about you, and so you're willing to overlook a 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:44.596 lot of things. And so I think that if when 0:11:44.596 --> 0:11:47.556 you put those things together, they are a potent combination 0:11:47.676 --> 0:11:52.276 towards not verifying and towards just trusting. Has there been 0:11:52.316 --> 0:11:55.036 innovation and surely that is one of the oldest categories 0:11:55.036 --> 0:11:59.116 of scamming. Is is there any digital innovation around that, 0:11:59.316 --> 0:12:02.516 or is this simply an old form being distributed via 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:06.116 new technology. Yeah. I think the answer to both of 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:09.396 those things is yes, in the sense that there are 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:14.876 only a few real cons that exist, and the bones 0:12:14.916 --> 0:12:16.836 of the story are the same, and they've been the 0:12:16.876 --> 0:12:20.156 same for centuries, and they just get kind of updated 0:12:20.196 --> 0:12:22.996 with the time and with the place. It's funny, I 0:12:22.996 --> 0:12:26.396 think that every single time there's a new technology, one 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:30.356 of the first movers to adapt it is the con artist. 0:12:30.796 --> 0:12:34.396 So you'd probably soon after you've had the Alexander graham 0:12:34.436 --> 0:12:38.396 bell first phone call, probably the next one was a 0:12:38.436 --> 0:12:42.316 telemarketer or some sort of a scam phone call soon 0:12:42.436 --> 0:12:46.636 on its heels. So every new technology just invites its 0:12:47.236 --> 0:12:50.676 ease of access. The Internet is just kind of this 0:12:51.356 --> 0:12:55.316 absolute gold mine for con artists, not just because of 0:12:55.316 --> 0:12:59.036 the information we provide, but because there's such easy access 0:12:59.116 --> 0:13:02.996 to so many people and dating sites. You already have 0:13:04.076 --> 0:13:08.596 your victims pre screening themselves. They're going on there because 0:13:09.396 --> 0:13:13.156 they're lonely, they're vulnerable, they're looking for connection, they're looking 0:13:13.196 --> 0:13:15.916 for something. One of the things that we find about 0:13:15.956 --> 0:13:19.756 the victims of con artists are it doesn't really matter 0:13:19.836 --> 0:13:22.596 how educated they are, or how old they are or 0:13:22.636 --> 0:13:25.996 any of that. But what does matter is where they 0:13:26.036 --> 0:13:29.436 are in their life in terms of are you going 0:13:29.476 --> 0:13:32.476 through a moment of transition? Are you emotionally vulnerable? And 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:34.916 it turns out that those moments of transition and change 0:13:35.116 --> 0:13:38.836 are the times when you're most likely to get scammed. 0:13:43.036 --> 0:13:49.316 Scams play on kind of primary emotions, you know, lust, loneliness, fear, 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:54.516 and greed. It's interesting how many scams are openly from 0:13:54.596 --> 0:13:58.916 someone engaging in corruption inviting you to participate it or 0:13:58.996 --> 0:14:01.596 help them in their corruption. I mean, I think of 0:14:01.636 --> 0:14:04.196 that classically as the you know, the son of the 0:14:04.316 --> 0:14:07.516 Nigerian oil minister scam. You know where you get a 0:14:07.596 --> 0:14:10.236 text or an email saying this is money in a 0:14:10.276 --> 0:14:13.516 bank account and I need your help to access it 0:14:13.756 --> 0:14:16.116 and I'll share it with you. That is be a 0:14:16.156 --> 0:14:21.116 thief with me. Indeed. Indeed, and why not that Nigerian 0:14:21.196 --> 0:14:24.556 oil minister didn't get it fairly anyway, so they have 0:14:24.676 --> 0:14:29.516 it coming. It's wonderful what we can justify when some 0:14:29.556 --> 0:14:32.236 poor person is actually the son of the Nigerian oil 0:14:32.276 --> 0:14:35.756 minister and has I imagine he has very little credibility 0:14:37.036 --> 0:14:39.756 when it when he explains who he is. But you know, 0:14:39.796 --> 0:14:43.716 I was thinking about this. Bernie Madeoff recently died, and 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:48.836 one of the interesting subtleties of the Madeoff case is 0:14:48.996 --> 0:14:53.436 that an argument was made that many of his investors 0:14:54.196 --> 0:14:57.916 thought he was a scammer. They just misunderstood the type 0:14:57.916 --> 0:15:01.356 of scam. They thought he was involved in insider trading, 0:15:01.796 --> 0:15:05.036 and they were beneficiaries of it, because, of course, it 0:15:05.076 --> 0:15:09.076 was very un usual, unrealistic for a stock market investor 0:15:09.636 --> 0:15:17.636 to generate consistent double digit returns. So sophisticated investors either 0:15:17.716 --> 0:15:21.756 weren't paying attention or had an inkling that something was up. 0:15:22.196 --> 0:15:24.476 They just didn't realize that they were the victims. They 0:15:24.516 --> 0:15:28.676 thought they were, that he was victimizing other people and 0:15:28.956 --> 0:15:31.116 you know, they didn't need to know about it. Was 0:15:31.156 --> 0:15:33.436 that your understanding of what was going on there. It 0:15:33.516 --> 0:15:36.156 was my understanding of some of it, but some of 0:15:36.156 --> 0:15:41.516 it was also just people really being taken advantage of. So, yeah, 0:15:41.556 --> 0:15:44.476 there were some sophisticated adventistors with made Off, but there 0:15:44.476 --> 0:15:46.796 were also people who just gave him their life savings 0:15:46.916 --> 0:15:49.916 because they'd heard from others who they trusted that this 0:15:49.956 --> 0:15:52.516 is someone who's good at what he does, and he 0:15:52.676 --> 0:15:55.436 ruined their lives completely. I mean, he wiped them out. 0:15:55.796 --> 0:15:59.476 And I think that it's important not to lump everyone 0:15:59.516 --> 0:16:01.636 in together, because I do think that there were people 0:16:01.716 --> 0:16:05.516 who really weren't sophisticated and who don't understand that those 0:16:05.556 --> 0:16:09.116 types of returns are crazy, and who just say, oh, 0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:12.356 you know, it's a great opportunity. Right. It's not actually 0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:15.676 crazy in the modern world to see these sorts of 0:16:16.236 --> 0:16:19.436 sometimes insane returns, And if you're not a sophisticated investor, 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:24.076 it's not necessarily greed in the sense of ha ha, 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:27.836 he's taking advantage of someone on my behalf. It's the 0:16:27.916 --> 0:16:30.516 sense that I've worked really hard. These are my life savings, 0:16:30.636 --> 0:16:35.236 and I found a smart opportunity, so why not take 0:16:35.276 --> 0:16:38.916 advantage of it. Other people who are smart are doing it, 0:16:39.076 --> 0:16:42.236 so why not me. Let me invest in crypto. Look 0:16:42.236 --> 0:16:45.436 at the returns people are getting. That seems like a 0:16:45.516 --> 0:16:48.436 really great thing to do. Let me buy some of 0:16:48.436 --> 0:16:52.156 that coin. Oh boy, I'm a millionaire. I'm glad you 0:16:52.196 --> 0:16:54.196 brought up crypto because I wanted to ask you whether 0:16:54.276 --> 0:16:56.916 that qualified as a scam, or what part of it 0:16:56.996 --> 0:17:00.276 might qualify as a scam. I mean, you have simultaneously 0:17:00.356 --> 0:17:05.836 presumably a speculative bubble, which isn't necessarily made off type 0:17:05.836 --> 0:17:10.996 scam where someone is benefiting from it. People are all participating, 0:17:11.036 --> 0:17:14.756 and it's fueled by the greater full theory. And then 0:17:14.796 --> 0:17:17.836 there's just stupidity, you know, making investing a lot of 0:17:17.876 --> 0:17:20.996 money and things that are worthless. I saw recently a 0:17:21.196 --> 0:17:24.716 report about a Delhi and New Jersey that trades on 0:17:24.756 --> 0:17:28.716 the Penny stock exchange that has a market capitalization of 0:17:28.756 --> 0:17:31.836 one hundred and ten million dollars and had revenues last 0:17:31.876 --> 0:17:34.756 year of thirty seven thousand dollars. So, you know, I 0:17:34.756 --> 0:17:36.436 don't know if that's a scam, it's just a really 0:17:36.476 --> 0:17:39.396 stupid investment. And then you now have to have what 0:17:39.476 --> 0:17:42.676 looks a little bit like a new phenomenon, which is 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:49.556 especially on cryptocurrency, things that are openly stupid investments that 0:17:49.636 --> 0:17:54.396 have no value, that don't even pretend otherwise doge coin, 0:17:54.796 --> 0:17:59.596 whatever whatever it is, and people participating in them knowing 0:17:59.756 --> 0:18:02.636 it's a scam or knowing it has no value. Is 0:18:02.716 --> 0:18:04.956 that all as old as time or are there actually 0:18:04.956 --> 0:18:08.516 some new things happening here? So it's a fascinating question. 0:18:08.636 --> 0:18:11.116 And if I knew the answer, then I would know 0:18:11.276 --> 0:18:15.956 to either drastically short crypto or to invest everything I 0:18:15.996 --> 0:18:19.676 own in it. And I don't. I don't understand the space. 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:23.396 That's why I actually have never invested in crypto myself. 0:18:23.916 --> 0:18:27.316 It has all the markings of bubbles of your It 0:18:27.356 --> 0:18:32.756 looks like John law and he had this crazy idea. 0:18:32.956 --> 0:18:37.076 It's the basis of markets now, where instead of having 0:18:37.116 --> 0:18:40.916 something that's backed in gold, you back it in you 0:18:41.196 --> 0:18:45.476 issue shares and you have kind of this partnership agreement 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:49.076 and you can speculate in things then, and you can 0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:54.516 infuse the economy with more liquidity. And he ended up 0:18:55.196 --> 0:18:57.836 basically convincing the government of France that this was going 0:18:57.876 --> 0:19:01.316 to be a great idea, and everyone invested in this 0:19:01.356 --> 0:19:04.356 great opportunity in America that was going to buy up 0:19:04.356 --> 0:19:08.076 all sorts of land and do great things, and people 0:19:08.156 --> 0:19:12.036 became million errors overnight, and then that whole bubble crashed 0:19:12.156 --> 0:19:15.196 and everyone went broke and Law went to prison. That 0:19:15.356 --> 0:19:19.276 was that. But there's this kind of great debate. Was 0:19:19.356 --> 0:19:21.876 John Lawe kind of a brilliant economic innovator and I 0:19:21.876 --> 0:19:24.836 just didn't end up working or was he a con artist? 0:19:25.156 --> 0:19:29.476 I was surprised at how bitter the disagreement is between 0:19:29.476 --> 0:19:32.356 economists about whether John Law was a good guy or 0:19:32.396 --> 0:19:35.796 a bad guy. I feel like with crypto, you know, 0:19:36.396 --> 0:19:40.236 you have this situation where it's totally new once again, 0:19:40.476 --> 0:19:45.236 and it's also backed by seemingly nothing, and so I 0:19:45.316 --> 0:19:47.476 have no idea. I don't know if people are going 0:19:47.516 --> 0:19:49.796 to end up in jail. I don't know if it's 0:19:49.836 --> 0:19:53.396 a con or a bubble, or if it's going to 0:19:53.436 --> 0:19:57.796 be the future. And a lot of smart people that 0:19:57.996 --> 0:20:00.116 I respect say it's the future, and a lot of 0:20:00.156 --> 0:20:04.156 smart people I respect say it's a bubble. It has 0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:06.476 all the hallmarks of a scam. But well, one thing 0:20:06.516 --> 0:20:08.396 we can be fairly sure about is where you have 0:20:08.556 --> 0:20:11.076 that kind of financial hype, they're going to be scams 0:20:11.116 --> 0:20:14.036 around it. Yes, so bitcoin may not be a scam 0:20:14.036 --> 0:20:17.516 in any conventional sense, but there are surely scammers who 0:20:17.756 --> 0:20:21.676 see people's eagerness to profit from this phenomenon and are 0:20:21.796 --> 0:20:26.676 figuring out how to scam them around cryptocurrency. So to 0:20:26.716 --> 0:20:31.116 avoid being scammed in general, we are to a significant 0:20:31.116 --> 0:20:35.796 degree resisting human nature, which is really tough. So what 0:20:35.916 --> 0:20:43.516 are the Maria Conakova takeaways? The precepts to avoid getting 0:20:43.556 --> 0:20:46.916 in the situation where you're vulnerable to a scam. And also, 0:20:47.316 --> 0:20:49.676 you know, when you think aren't sure if something's a 0:20:49.716 --> 0:20:53.436 scam or not, to assess whether whether to misprust it, 0:20:54.556 --> 0:20:57.436 trust but verify. So the more you want something to 0:20:57.476 --> 0:21:00.756 be true, the more you need to actually ask questions, 0:21:00.796 --> 0:21:04.636 be skeptical, and know what you're going to say when 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:08.676 people put up a fight and get indignant. Because oftentimes 0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:13.036 these conversations are difficult to have, and so we rather 0:21:13.116 --> 0:21:15.636 avoid having them, and so we end up not having them. 0:21:15.916 --> 0:21:18.036 And so I actually think that a lot of it 0:21:18.076 --> 0:21:22.316 comes from preparation, from actually figuring out ahead of time. 0:21:22.556 --> 0:21:25.276 You know, Okay, you know I think that this I'm 0:21:25.276 --> 0:21:28.396 going to have to have this difficult conversation. This person 0:21:28.516 --> 0:21:30.556 might tell me I can't believe you don't trust me? 0:21:30.876 --> 0:21:32.556 You know who do you think I am? They might 0:21:32.636 --> 0:21:34.796 yell at me, and this is what I'm going to say, 0:21:35.036 --> 0:21:38.156 going to say, I do trust you, I completely understand. However, 0:21:38.756 --> 0:21:41.636 you know I need you to be able to verify this. 0:21:41.756 --> 0:21:44.796 I'm sure you can understand that it's a lot of 0:21:44.796 --> 0:21:48.156 money or whatever it is, and think about it ahead 0:21:48.196 --> 0:21:50.316 of time and think through things ahead of time. The 0:21:50.356 --> 0:21:54.116 other thing I would say is to never make decisions 0:21:54.116 --> 0:21:56.316 in the heat of the moment. And that's also easier 0:21:56.356 --> 0:22:00.436 said than done. But just think right now as you're 0:22:00.476 --> 0:22:04.156 listening to this, is it ever true that someone is 0:22:04.196 --> 0:22:08.156 going to die if you don't make a payment immediately? 0:22:09.236 --> 0:22:12.796 Is it true that the IRS is suddenly going to 0:22:12.916 --> 0:22:15.836 arrest you if you do not immediately do this or 0:22:15.956 --> 0:22:19.636 immediately do that. One of the things that scams often 0:22:19.676 --> 0:22:22.636 do is they create this feeling of immediacy, of pressure 0:22:22.716 --> 0:22:24.516 so that you act in the heat of the moment. 0:22:24.876 --> 0:22:27.156 And the number one thing that you can do is 0:22:27.196 --> 0:22:31.236 to step back and reflect and actually have time, because 0:22:31.276 --> 0:22:35.316 time is the great and to emotion and to kind 0:22:35.356 --> 0:22:40.436 of the heat of an emotional moment, and it cools 0:22:40.556 --> 0:22:43.156 it naturally cools you off and helps you reflect and 0:22:43.196 --> 0:22:46.916 helps you figure things out. And so if you can 0:22:47.076 --> 0:22:50.956 pause and not act immediately, I think that's going to 0:22:50.996 --> 0:22:53.676 prevent a lot of scams. And the funny thing is 0:22:54.116 --> 0:22:59.196 that these sorts of safeguards do exist in a lot 0:22:59.236 --> 0:23:03.196 of infrastructure, and we tend to ignore it and try 0:23:03.236 --> 0:23:06.836 to push through it so that we can act right away. 0:23:06.996 --> 0:23:09.276 It's like a bank, you know, if you're trying to 0:23:09.436 --> 0:23:13.196 perform a suspicious transaction will often say you know, hey, 0:23:13.356 --> 0:23:17.636 you know, pause, we don't want you to actually do this. 0:23:18.116 --> 0:23:20.276 It might be a scam and you get mad at 0:23:20.276 --> 0:23:25.076 the bank rather than say, oh, maybe they're actually doing 0:23:25.156 --> 0:23:28.836 something that's good for me. But that's I think finding 0:23:28.876 --> 0:23:32.196 moments of reflection, I think is a really important way 0:23:32.236 --> 0:23:35.516 that we can avoid being scammed. And the final kind 0:23:35.556 --> 0:23:38.916 of psychological tool that I have that I think can 0:23:38.956 --> 0:23:42.556 be incredibly useful is if you think something might be 0:23:42.596 --> 0:23:44.956 a scam, or if you really want to believe something 0:23:45.556 --> 0:23:48.196 or kind off you are about to make a decision, 0:23:49.556 --> 0:23:53.356 think about what you would tell someone else if they 0:23:53.356 --> 0:23:56.476